January 14, 2016 • 50 mins
In 1972 Congressmen Hale Boggs & Nick Begich boarded a Cessna to fly from Anchorage, AK to Juneau. The plane never made it, and no wreckage was ever found. Was it an accident... or murder?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't know. You never know
(00:25):
stories of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hi. There,
Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe your
host this week, joined by my co hosts Den and Steve.
All Right, well, you guys want to solve a really
groovy mystery. Yeah, we're we at least poles in it. Yeah,
(00:48):
this is, um, this is a kind of an interesting one.
It's not a really huge one, but people are still
chewing over it years after it happened. Yeah. This this
is because this is uh, this is tied into another big,
giant mystery, and so I'm pretty sure that's why people
are so intrigued by it. The other one is, of course,
(01:08):
the assassination of JFK. I'm sure most of you have
heard about. Yeah, so explaining to second this ties in, uh,
we are talking this week about the mysterious disappearance of
Congressman Hail Boggs in nineteen seventy two, not Hailbop not
hail bop comment many, yeah, Hailbogs. So briefly, what happened
(01:33):
is that Hail Boggs was in Alaska campaigning for another
congressman named Nick Baggage. Since Hail Boggs was the he
was the majority leader in the House and so he
was expected to go do campaigning for some of the
other candidates. Baggage was in a tight race, so he
was off. He was there headed for a fundraiser in Juneo.
They were Democrats, Yeah, yeah, And they got on an
(01:56):
assessment not three ten six Ceder plane in Anchorage along
with the pilot, John Jones and Baggage's assistant Russell Brown.
They were headed from Anchorage to Juno for a campaign fundraiser,
and long story short, the plane never made it to
Juno and the wreckage was never found. It's got vanished. Yeah. First,
(02:18):
a little background on our subject. Thomas Hale Boggs was
first elected to the House in nineteen forty. Then he
lost his re election bid in nineteen two. So he
decided to go join the navy. And so you want
to join the Navy and did a little fight in
World War Two. It was a very patriotic thing to
do with. Yeah, yeah, a lot of a lot of
people did it, and for our listeners, so they know
(02:39):
why I was just giggling in the background. Our notes
say that he was de elected, I'd say that, yeah, yeah,
he was de selected there and he elected, and then
after World War Two he made a come back in
ninety six and course yeah, yeah, he's won't served in
the war. That's got to boost your cred There's a
bunch of guys who came back from the war and
(03:00):
got right into office using that platform. I don't I
don't know that Box was a war hero exactly, but
he did his bit, you know, and that sometimes it's
all it takes. Yeah, absolutely he was. By the time
he disappeared, he was House Majority leaders. I mentioned he
was next in line for the speakership. And some of
you may have heard of his daughter, Cokie Roberts, who
was with NPR and also I think with ABC News
(03:21):
and yeah, yeah, I like listening to her. Yeah, she
still got a great voice. Yeah, she still gets asked
questions about her dad too. Bet her dad's disappearance. You know, people,
just like I said, people are still chewing over this one. Yeah,
Another thing about hail Box that's interesting is that he
served on the President's Commission on the Assassination of John Fitzgerald.
(03:42):
Kennedy also noticed a Warran commission because it was headed
by Earl Warren. Box reportedly was not happy. This is rumor,
has it not happy with the actual results of the
Warrant commission. Yeah. Reportedly, he also reportedly spoke with Jim Garrison.
You may have heard of. Kevin Costner played him in
Oliver Stone's movie JFK Oh. Yeah, Jim Jim Garrison was
(04:07):
a New Orleans District attorney. Box apparently spilled his guest
to Jim Jim Garrison and gave him enough information to
cause Garrison to indict and prosecute a New Orleans businessman
named Clay Shaw, who if you haven't heard of, you know,
watch the movie JFK or maybe I think he was
played by Tommy Lee Jones in the movie. It's been
so long since I've seen that. I don't even want
(04:28):
to hazard guests, but I didn't see it. Yeah, could
you not watch the movie? I know, I don't know.
I'm sorry. Do my research for this. Yeah. The rumor
was is that that Garrison had this, he had a
witness and he said he went to a party, like
some sort of cocktail party where Clay Shaw and some
other associates met with none other than Lee Lee Harvey
(04:50):
Oswald and a lot of the assassination of JFK. And
so he took the case to court and I think
the I don't remember how long the trial actually went
on for a while, and he made his case and
then the Jerry came back in the quitted show after
after deliberating for less than an hour. Out. Yeah, his
(05:13):
career didn't go that's kind of humiliating. Yeah, yeah, that's
because that's a major trial. So why did he spill
this guesst Garrison? If he did well? Again, as I said,
it's been rumored he wasn't satisfied with the verdict of
the Warrant Commission, and it's also been rumored that he
wanted to reopen the assassination investigation. Let's be fair, he
(05:36):
wouldn't be the only person that's true. Yeah, I was
gonna say, listen, this is the thing that is so
funny when you read about about Hillbogs is everybody makes
it out that he was running around Washington constantly screaming
what a cock up the Warrant Commission was and how
wrong it was. But you've got to look at the
(05:58):
dates here. The Warrant Commission ended in sixty four. He
died in seventy two, right, yeah, okay, years later. That's
eight years. If I don't like something over the course
of eight years, I'm probably gonna make some disparaging remarks
to it. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna that I
am so flaming angry at it as the way that
(06:20):
you you find it in a lot of the accounting. Well,
I don't know if that's true about you or not,
because I've heard you get that angry time, but not
eight years later. But not about the Warrant Commission. That's
not about the work. I was fine when I was
on the Warrant Commission. It was fine. You were satisfied
with the results, yea, now they The thing about it
(06:41):
is is like there's there's evidence both reactions. Yeah. No,
I'm just just the way it is phrased and put
two readers on the internet is why I want to
bring that up. Oh yeah, if you if you read
all this stuff in the internet, he was telling anybody
and everybody about you know, massive lize the FBI and
how you know, and how and how their investigation was
(07:03):
all cocked up and everything, and uh, you know, but
we'll talk a little bit more about that later. I
didn't want to say. Regarding the warr And Commission, a
lot of the people that served on it really actually,
we're kind of reluctant to and a couple of them
even pointed out that it's really not going to settle
the issue, will probably just make things worse. And that's
really basically what happened with the warr Commission. From the start.
(07:24):
It was everybody was a legend, cover up, cover up,
you know, and so why you even bother? Yeah, absolutely true. Yeah.
But anyway, all this, all this talk about reopening the
investigation has led to speculations still going on today that
Boggs disappearance was not an accident and he was murdered
to head off a new investigation. So they didn't do
a very good job. People are still poking around. And
(07:45):
then they did not nail the lid shot on that
one very well. Yeah, I think they missed completely knocked
the lid off. And yeah, yeah, they just stirred up
a Hornet's nest here. So there's a lot of talk
about the you know, the elements of the CIA and
murdered him. It's also talking about maybe it was the
(08:06):
FBI that did him in. The CIA couldn't have murdered him,
you don't think, so, I don't think. I don't know.
Every time somebody's like, oh, the CIA murdered this guy,
but did it happen on US soil, then it probably
wasn't the CIA thinks, right, think isn't that the thing?
The CIA can't operate on US soil without a different
department quote unquote heading it. Well, yeah, but you know,
(08:31):
if they're if they're doing something as the illegal is
murdering people, they probably don't care or you just got
the FBI to do it for you. There pretty much
and the FBI don't really like each other. That's true. Yeah,
I don't know. That's just always my initial reaction when
I hear things like that it's finally coming out on
the show. I tend to be a little skeptical about
(08:51):
that whole thing. Might when I take of the CIA,
I don't think of cloak and dagger, and I don't
think of special black ops, and you know, wet work
and stuff like that. I think of just blistering incompetence.
That's what the lake. Yeah maybe he did it. Oh yeah,
No more talk about those guys. Okay, I want to
stay alive. Uh So we should fraably get back to
(09:14):
hail Bogs. Yah. Let's talk to hail Box here for
a minute. The hail Box actually, speaking of the FBI,
had a good relationship with Jager Hoover. I read to
a bit of his FBI files and there were a
lot of there was a lot of correspondence back and
forth on various issues, and hail Bogs was constantly praising
Hoover and the FBI and the Audiadiada, which is so
(09:35):
counter to some of the louder websites that you find
on this story, and it's so funny. Well, things did
change a little bit. Things did change, yeah, and by
by April nineteen seventy one. In April nineteen seventy one,
Bogs claimed that he discovered a bug and his telephone
at home and he thought it was the FBI to
put it there. And then in maybe two weeks later,
(09:57):
he gave a speech before Congress in which he called
for Jaker, who were to resign. Yeah, and he was.
He was drawing like parallels between Jacker Hooger and the
FBI and the Soviets and stuff like this and all
this stuff. Yeah, yeah, Did you did either of you
listen to the because obviously Nixon wasn't very happy about that.
(10:18):
Did you listen to the tapes the from Nixon when
he was talking to I think it was, yeah, Jerry
because he called him Jerry, so it was for when
he was talking to him, and it's They always say, well,
then this is proof that Nixon wanted him out, and
Nixon's not happy with him. But I had never heard
(10:38):
any of the tapes from Nixon before, and it is
the weirdest conversation in the world to listen to. Did
either of you get it? Is? I have never heard
such a leading conversation. In other words, Nixon would start
talking and there would be a question in there, and
then Ford would start, you know, oh yes or oh yes, sir,
(11:02):
oh yes, sir to answer the question and make him
feel better, and then he would just ride over him
and then he would oh, okay, well I gotta let
you go. I gotta go, and then he'd do it
all over again. It was the weirdest thing in the
world to listen to. And I didn't know why everybody
made such a fuss about it. It really was just
I don't think that guy should have done that, And
(11:23):
I think we got a problem. So you should have
somebody look into this. Okay, thanks by got a problem
with Boggs, a problem with with Hoover, with Bosh, Yeah,
with Bogs and everything he was saying against Hoover. Yeah. Yeah,
And I know that Nixon was not about to touch Hoover.
I mean, you know a story nobody. Yeah, Hoover was untouchable. Yeah,
(11:44):
he's got his own damn. Yeah, seriously, and he uh
he had the goods on everybody, the rumor has and
so yeah, everybody was afraid to go after Hohoover. This
is why his grave is hidden, because it's all in
his coffin. Yeah, secrets. Ye. I would love to get
my hands on his files. So cool, you and me both.
Yeah anyway, Yeah, so something changed boxes mind about j
(12:05):
Edgar Um. Now back to our faithful plane ride. The morning.
It was the morning of October six, nineteen seventy two.
The weather was so so it's fog, low clouds, a
little drizzle, you remember I was there. Yeah, yeah, and uh.
There was a company called pan Alaska that was only
a guy named Don Jones who piloted this this plane
(12:27):
that was the plane was one of their planes. It's Jones.
It's in case somebody's going to go out in google
it Z. It's j O and Z, which isn't exactly
the intuitive spelling of the word. Yeah, I've heard it
pronounced John's as well. Yeah. I was just about to
say it could be Johns, I don't know, or or
Juan's yawns. But it's Jon Jones. Now it could be
(12:50):
John Z for all we know, but for our purposes
we'll just call him Jones. His flight plan basically was
that they were going to the town of Yakutat and
probably this meant that pronouncing that, But they're going by
via airway V three seventeen, which is a flight route.
It's a flight route. Yeah, yeah, and uh and from
and once they got to Yakutut, then yak Yakutat, they
(13:13):
would go on a straight line to Juno. From there,
it was supposed to be about it about a three
and a half hour trip. So the route goes southeast
from Ancoras to what's called Portage Pass through the mountains,
and then it veers leftward a bit and goes pretty
much more or less straight to Yakutat, and then from
there it was to not just just a little bit
right ward carries on to Juneo, but it leaves to
(13:35):
the V seventeen flight path. So it's pretty much overland. No, no,
it's mostly over water. Mostly over water. That's that's actually
you have the I've got a map of it. Yeah,
so what you're looking at it. It's funny is that
I had looked up what the current normal route is
between the two cities. Yeah, and most commercial airlines today
(13:58):
actually take an arc between the two and they stay
inland for most of that trip. So it was really
interesting when I saw this that it was actually but
it's on the coastline. Over water, but on the coastline. Yeah,
that's pretty much. Yeah. So yeah, it takes off, goes
to Portage Pass and then heads off across Pritts Williams
Sound and then you know, it's mostly over water, but
(14:21):
it's it's not that far off the coast, so if
you get a little bit of trouble, maybe you can
find the innikulated dry land before you crash. The water
is cold, it be hard, Yeah, it would suck either way. Yeah,
Don Jones, the pilot said that he was going to
fly under visual flight rules. What does that mean? The
visual flight rules means that it's that that's what you
do when the weather it's clear enough that you can
(14:42):
see all around you. And and then instrument flight rules
are when when conditions are very limited visibility, then you're
supposed to be able to fly by instruments instead of
just by using your just fly by side or fly
by instrument. He was doing fly by sight, yeah, he was. Yeah,
and you know, kind of foggy cloud weather and he
was of course he was qualified to do both, right
(15:04):
he was. Yeah. I mean he's this guy had like
seventeen thousand hours of flight experience. That's it. I think
that's probably an important thing to mention as well, because
it's not Yeah, and so I don't know if he
was just getting cocky or what, but yeah, he But
the NTSB investigated this and wrote a report in nineteen
seventy three, that's when they released it. Anyway, those uninitiated
(15:24):
TSB National Transportation Safety Board. That's it listens about that.
I'm thank you for saying that, because I read it
and I was like, oh, I know what that is,
and then just continued months. Good call. Yeah, okay, it's
but according to their report quote the weather conditions along
the proposed route, we're not conducive to flight under visual
(15:47):
flight rules criteria unquote. Yeah, but anyway, that's what they did.
They took off at nine am. Last communication with anchorage
tower was at nine oh nine am, and reportedly they
disap as they were approaching the Chugach Mountain Range. I
hope I'm pronouncing that right. Probably not, so the plant
didn't even make it to Yakoo, tad All. An interesting
(16:08):
factory about the Chugach Mountains is that they get more
snowfall than any other place in the world. What they do,
annual average snowfall is si So if they're playing did
happen to crash in the in the in those mountains, well,
it's not a surprised. I never found that. That absolutely
(16:29):
is for our not American everybody else who uses the
metric system metrified, that's fifteen point to five. Yeah, so
that's not nothing. It's not a lot of snow. You
(16:51):
can make an awesome. Snowman really big one, yeah, or
a lot of them. Snowman army, Yeah, would be great.
Give them a little hats, send them marching on anchor
don't watch Dr Who. I remember that episode they have
testy little teeth that they have actual carnivorous snowman or something.
(17:11):
I saw that one they did. I like it. Back
where we are we Yeah, So the plane was supposed
to arrive in Juneo at twelve thirty PM. At one
fifteen it was reported overdue. So the US Air Force
Rescue Coordination Center checked with all the air fields that
were anywhere near the plane's flight path, and nobody had
seen or heard anything from the plane, so that he
didn't make an emergency landing anywhere. And they were in
(17:33):
a six You said it was a six seeded Cessna. Yeah,
twin engine Cessna with six seeds. I am never going
to get an as Sessa. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, they diverted.
There was already an an airborne HC one thirty plane
up in the air, so they diverted that to go
look for the plane, and of course they brought in
lots more resources. This was one of the biggest searches
(17:55):
ever they spent thirty nine days looking for theseus I
guess you will. Yeah, yeah. Uh So the planes helicopters,
both government owned in private, and they served s thousands
of square miles of land and also Coastguard cutters along
with merchant marine vessels and fishing vessels search Prince William Sound,
(18:17):
the Gulf of Alaska and the Icy Straits area around Juneau,
and they found nothing, not even a bit of wreckage
floating in the water. Nothing. And then an interesting little
side side. Some people have made a lot of this
like they have. In October eighteenth, nineteen seventy two, the
fbis Los Angeles office got a call from a guy.
And I've heard this two ways. One was the FBI
I got a call from the guy, and the animal
(18:38):
was that this guy called the Long Beach Coast Guard Office. Yeah.
I have actually seen it both ways, now that you
say that. Yeah. And so this guy claimed work for
a company that specialized in quote surveillance technologies unquote, and
that they had located the plane via either some sort
of radio transmission or via the transmission from its emergency
location transmitter. Because most planes carry the fact that they
(19:01):
all carry the days today they all do. They didn't
carryhim in those days necessarily. This actually, this crash is
why all planes now have HE transponders in them, which
are really really effective, as we know from recent crashes. Yeah,
they're very helpful in finding crashes. They are kind of
helpful usually. The first time I ever saw when I
(19:23):
was in a little two seater sessment with this guy
that I knew, yeah, I was incess. I am like,
actually this guy was. I really did kind of take
my life in my hands because this guy was actually
a fairly novice pilot and he wanted to go for
and and so we rented this plane and took off
from Vancouver, Washington and want to flew around not Saint
Helen's cannon came back and that's when I know that
(19:44):
I saw my first emergency transit. Emergency transmitter and says
it looks like like a walkie talkie mounted in a
really heavy duty bracket towards the back of the plane,
and it's got a tagle switch on the top of it,
and there's a little rail and it's got this heavy
weight on it. So the whole idea is when I
was plane goes Chris Smack action to something that heavyweight's
gonna go back forward and toggle that switch. Very simple,
(20:06):
you know, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, but yeah, and
under Alaska law, you were required to have some sort
of emergency transmitter if you didn't have one mounted in
your plane, and then you could have a portable unit
with with the pilot so you could do that. So
Alaska did require them in this particular case. Just so
over so I remember that that's two days after the
(20:28):
crash that that guy called. Oh yeah, yeah, that's yeah,
back to that until totally got off the track. That's okay,
it is, yeah, two days yeah, so two days after
the crash or two days after the disappearance. Yeah, that's
when he called. And then um, yeah, so this guy
and he gave the coordinates of the crash site and
although he didn't really give the coordinates as in ladder
(20:49):
price precise latitude and longitude. Instead he gave these really
strange directions. Yeah. Yeah. He also said that there were
two people still alive there. He said, you know how
he would know that, Well, that's kind of what I'm
wondering too, because you know, then it must have neces
sort of radio transmission. But what I don't understand is
how it is that nobody else heard this? Yeah, or
maybe they were doing like a flyover thermal. In the
(21:11):
more real websites that you see, they say that at
the time, the U. S. Government had the ability to
actually track individual people and could pick up some kind
of special radio and I don't know, I I don't
understand it because it's really kind of fringe. E. It
(21:34):
was his it was his fillings anyway, it was their
electrical magnetic field. Everybody, they could track you by your
personal electromagnetic field because what it was, and that they
had the technology to do it, but they couldn't reveal that.
So of course, whenever anybody said, well, how do you
know that? But I can't tell you that? Or who
do you work for? I can't tell you that because
(21:56):
technically it's a government institution that he works for. It
was the goofiest thing if you and you have the
what he said, yes and that the directions right, Yes, yes,
is our our highly highly reliable sources. They call him
the FBI. I think they called him that. But okay,
(22:17):
so here's how it goes. The it's is draw a
straight line from Anchorage to Juno Head west from JUNO
two hundred and an unknown number because we don't know
what it is because the photocopy is so bad that Yeah,
the tent. So it's hundred and blank six and one
(22:40):
half miles across the Yakutat Bay and the Malsapoena Glacier.
Draw a line from that point to the coast. Go
back north along that line six point four or three
miles to the downed plane. That, ladies and gentlemen, is
a geographic word problem. Yeah, that's like an s A
(23:01):
T question. It kind of is. I don't I don't
unders understand why if they couldn't just give like the
latitude and longitude. Maybe I have theories on it, and
we'll talk about that when we get into the theories section.
But that is that, that is the way that the
directions were given. Yeah, the FBI and did go interview
this guy. Unfortunately, his name has been redacted in their records,
(23:23):
so I don't know what his name was, but yeah,
they were part of that. He quote appeared rational, extremely intelligent,
but somewhat strange unquote, and he was also evasive, like said,
he wouldn't say where his what his company was, or
exactly what they did wouldn't talk about that. And then uh,
the FBI asked him again like later on, they if
(23:45):
he knew anything about like what frequency these radio transmissions
were on, or what any of these messages were, like
what the text of matches were he was He wouldn't say,
so he was absolutely part of the fringe, yeah, right,
or pranks. Yeah, it could have been a prankster. Yeah. Uh.
The FBI did pass the info on to the relevant people.
(24:08):
The area was reportedly searched and nothing was found. Uh,
and after that day decided the source was a flake.
And also again the plane, even though it didn't have
any in an e l T Emergency location transmitter, the
pilot still was supposed to carry one, but Don Jones
and e LT was found later on board another Pan
Alaska airplane. This is weird. I mean, I guess it's
(24:30):
I think that he went from one plane to the
next and left. Yeah. Yeah, but I guess again it's
one of those. You know, he was a pretty accomplished pilot. Yeah,
he didn't feel like it was really necessary. Coincidence that
he decided to choose the wrong kind of way to fly.
It's a coincidence that he managed to leave his transmitter
on a different plane. Oh yeah, I mean, I don't
(24:52):
think there's anything a dark conspiracy or anything like that.
I think, but it is. It's a lot of a
lot of oh say yeah, yeah, I don't know. Maybe
maybe the pilot was feeling a little down and decided
to take himself out. And we've seen it before. Yeah,
I know. Uh so it appears that there was no
emergency transmitter. Now the plane, of course had other radios
(25:15):
in it, but how well those would be working after
a plane crash, I don't know. Yeah, especially under snow. Yeah, yeah,
I don't think it dove all the way down through
really hard. Well, it was in the sky, I'll give
you that. That was I'm thinking of that plane that
(25:37):
crashed in South America decades ago, and it's they were
they were in a head wind and they didn't realize
that they had not They were traveling basically from Buenos
Aires to Peru, and so because of the head wind,
they weren't as far west as they thought they were,
so they started their descent too early and they sort
of crashed into the side. Yeah. I was just reading
about that the other day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then
(25:58):
the most recently what happened is they wind up being
becoming part of a glacier, and now parts of the
plane are starting to come out of the glacier, the
front of the glacier. Yeah, after all those years decades, Yeah,
the planes finally popping out. Maybe that and maybe that's
what's gonna happen here. Maybe you'll start coming out of
a glacier one of these days. That plane crashed and
it was forty six or forty seven or something like that,
(26:20):
and these guys who were ha been in World War Two,
So yeah, I remember that anyway. But that's all that's
were I want to get off track. That's okay. It's
people love to just hear us talk, even if we're
not saying anything. But yeah, but as far as if
they heard radio transmissions, like vote voice radio transmissions, it's
(26:41):
kind of surprising nobody else did, although several independent Ham
operators in northern California said they spoke with someone or
at least heard a transmission from someone on the plane
after it crashed who said that there were survivors. And
then again, it's another one of those weird things right
where it's like, but why so far away is that
everybody was hearing it. You know, why weren't people why
(27:03):
you know, why didn't the airports in the area that
we're on the radio? When didn't they pick up operators
in Oregon and Washington and Canada picking it? Yeah, that's
a good question. But was it only California, just only
northern California maybe? Yeah, reminds me of Lost Boiler Area. Yeah,
(27:24):
maybe the plane actually crashed in California. That's why they
couldn't find it. They were way of course. Yeah that
is a terrible yeah. Yeah, so our mystery. Then what
happened to Bog's Beggett, Brown and Jones. Yeah, it sounds
like a law firm. Huh. There are three possibilities excluding
up in the aliens. Yeah. Um, you know, I'm also
(27:46):
going to exclude the they went off to go start
a new life somewhere else theory. You don't actually do that. Yeah,
you totally keep going in there. Yeah, so three possibilities.
Here's number one, the CIA or and or the FBI
arranged to have a bomb planet on the airplane. That
this is a lot of people believe that there was
a bomb. Um some people believe that the CIA assassin
wasn't not other than Bill Clinton. Is that real? Yeah,
(28:10):
that's real. I found it on at least two or
three websites. Supposedly Clinton was a young man and he
drove bogs to the airport to get on the plane
that took him to Alaska, not the plane that went down. Well, yeah,
everybody takes it takes us as Yeah, he drove him
to the airport in Alaska and and just snuck a
bomb in Texas or something like that. Weren't they the
(28:32):
dollars airport? Dollars airports in New York? Right? And Dallas
is Washington, Virginia. So Washington d C me no geography
quite well, surrounding area. Yeah, I mean it's not in DC.
It's got to be I'm thinking of Dallas Fort Worth. Then, yeah,
that's it. Just a little confused. Yeah, well, you know,
(28:52):
I was a little confused as soon as I heard
that Old Bill Clinton was response would explain why he
was elected to isn't as payment? That's that's gotta be it.
So he probably drove into the airport and says, hey,
I just got a little part of the gift for
you here. I don't want you to until you get
to Juno, and don't mind the ticken. I have never
(29:14):
heard your Bill Clinton impression, but it's pretty good. Thank you. So,
so Clinton is the assassin? Which Clinton was the assassin? Yeah,
I'm sorry. The only thing that he has been able
to assassinate that I've ever known of is his wife's
dignity and his own character. Yeah, okay, but continue on
(29:35):
with this. Okay, So where where the c A or
FBI had a bomb planet on the plane? As I
said earlier, he was pushing, supposedly pushing to reopen the
investigation into the assassination, and he had to be silenced. Um,
it's said, It's been said that Box was suspicious that
there was CIA and or Cuban government involvement in the assassination. Yeah,
(29:57):
because you know that is the thing. Ok Yeah. An
author named John H. Davis wrote a book about one
of Bog's associates. I don't think I don't know how
closely he was associated with this guy, but the guy,
it was kind of a mafiosa sort of guy. And
then he said that he wrote that Box was skeptical
(30:18):
the FBI investigation as conclusions. He said also that years
after the fact that one of Bog's former aids said, quote,
Hale always returned to one thing. Hooverlied his eyes out
to the commission on Oswald on Ruby on their friends,
the bullets of the guns you name it unquote of
course says it's just you know what, kind of like
(30:40):
third hand kind of stuff kind of hearsay, yeah. Yeah. Alternatively,
the FBI might have done it because Boggs disc jag
or Hoover, as I said, he did, announced him and
demanded his resignation in April. Possibility. Yeah, of course, Hoover
died five months before the disappearance of the plane. But
you never know. I mean, maybe he gave the order
in the assassins, just waited until October because that was
(31:03):
the propetious time to do it, because after all, Alaska
and small airplanes don't really get along that well, even
though if you have to happen to get around. I mean,
they seem to disappear a hell of a lot up there,
or crash or not disappear, but they crashed, they don't
fare well. Yeah uh. And also bolstering the FBI theory,
(31:26):
Nick Baggage, his son who was also named Nick Baggage,
said in two thousand and eleven and then interview that
the FBI knew where the down airplane was but didn't
turn over the information to the coast Guard, and so
the plane survivors were basically left to die in the wilderness.
That's what he claimed. And yeah, I know, well, it's
just I mean, I don't know. I usually when when
(31:48):
the kids of the victims of things buy into these
conspiracy theories, they champion the conspiracy. I had a kind
of I don't know, like adds a little more to me.
You know, they their parents pretty well, they would know
if they had that sense of like that that was
actually probably gonna happen to them or not. But obviously,
I mean, like I don't think that Cokey Roberts thinks
(32:08):
that just happened. So yeah, she's kind of the polar opposite.
But yeah, it's interesting. It's I don't know, but that's
always interesting to me. Yeah, it's always I think, you know,
especially once your parents or something like that, I mean,
you want to want to be something more historically significant,
and there's just gotten the crash. Yeah, but he said
that they did it mainly to uh, I'm not so
(32:30):
sure that he buys. He hasn't didn't really say anything
about the whole uh JFK assassination thing. But he thought
he thought the FBI just had the technology to find them,
but it was new and classified, its super secret. They
didn't want to give away their their sources by sense,
so they basically chose to let these people all die,
which I don't I don't believe in seventy two they
(32:52):
had any sort of sort of super mystical It had
to be a satellite. Yeah, I think about it. And
it was looking up the satellite list that had been
launched and were available at that time, and it didn't
get an impression from anything that was out there that
we had anything remotely capable of doing that unless the
FBI had, you know, actually bugged in his bloodstream. Hail bogs.
(33:17):
Think they put a little tracker chip in him that
could be to know where he was at all times,
to make sure he wasn't up to no good. Yeah,
that could be that technology existed then, Yeah, Yeah, well
we had and we had we did have spy satellites
and stuff, but you know, you kind of like they're
not necessarily going to pass over that particular spot at
(33:39):
that particular time. Yeah, and that and there, uh, you know,
they might go over that spot once every now and
again unless you want to change their change their orbit
a bit, which they're kind of reluctant to do because
they have limited fuel on board. I don't know why
Google didn't get a picture of it. Uh yeah, Well,
speaking of Google, can we talk about this whole the
(34:01):
guy who said he knew the coordinates thing a little
bit more or no? Because I used Google Transition, Yes,
got it, because I I kind of I kind of
went a little crazy on this this word problem that
they gave us about how that heat where he said
they knew where Boggs was, and there's some serious problems
(34:23):
with it. And I'm gonna say at the outset that
I'm pretty sure the problems with it are that somebody
did their quote unquote calculations. They did it on a
paper map using a ruler and a pencil, and you know,
doing the distance conversions from x amount of distance equels
a mile. So their their scale is probably what screwed
(34:45):
him up. If we go back to what this person said,
it said from Juno, head west from Juno, which is
the southernmost point of their route, because we're just north
of it or north west of you know, well, the
two hundred number two hundred blank in that has to
(35:06):
be a low number. Okay, so it's two hundred and six, Well,
that means it's gonna be like two six to put
it around that glacier that he's talking about. But in
a straight line. There's almost no land that that on
the line of that they're running. So when it says
(35:27):
follow that line, hit this this mile point, and then
draw a line to the coast, well, I don't know
what that line to the coast means. But then track
that back north six point four three miles, Well that
does put them completely in Basically, it puts them in
the middle of what's the glacier there, the Mallas Spina glacier.
(35:50):
That's the one that they reference, which is a Piedmont glacier,
which is a weird glacier because it's kind of flat
and from space it almost looks like somebody dropped a
white drop of paint in blue the way it kind
of echoes out. But it's a real flat area, so
it would have been pretty easy for the search planes
to find it because there's no major cavasses and crags
(36:13):
and stuff in there. So a my first problem is
is that the course that they the point that they
call out on the course is over water. So it's
hard to go to the coast because I infer it
to head south from the line to coastline and then
head north. But even if it's just heading directly north,
it doesn't make any sense. It's it's such an easy
(36:35):
flat area to find somebody. So that's why I consider
the whole thing just so badly done. And somebody who
thought they knew what they were talking about be still
a map and they were kind of a cook. Yeah,
I think I think the guy was just I think
it was probably just because you know, I guess some
guy wanted attention. Maybe I don't know, but I spent
(36:56):
I spent way too much time on Google Earth trying
to map out these coordinates, and just it's just a
strange way to give the give the coordinates to the
crash site. As you say, if they had crashed on
that placier, then they're probably even if they're playing had
fallen down a crevass, you'd see it. It's some nice,
big long skid marks and a little bit of debreed
and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So between the
(37:20):
FBI and the CIA. I'm gonna go with the CIA,
mainly because since they were employing Bill Clinton, that makes
him an assassin and murderer, so that's kind of fun.
But yeah, I guess we said he drove into the
Dollas Airport, but he was nowhere near Alaska in the
day that the plane took off. I think that Cloe
can clear Clinton of this and a way, but maybe
somebody else planning bomb on the on the plane and Anchorage,
(37:42):
and it's always possible even if it wasn't Bill Clinton.
But according to the National Transportation Safety Boards report, UH
says probably not because at eight am that day, Don
Jones took the plane to the refueling pitch at Anchorage
International Airport. The witnesses there's said nothing was put on
the plane except for gasoline, and after that Jones taxied
(38:04):
the plane to a rap near the control tower where
the three passengers got on, and witness there said that
a small amount of baggage passenger baggage was also placed
on the plane, but that was it, although of course
there could have been a bomb in one of the bags. Yeah,
you know, I suppose, you know, I think the thing
is John's was a kind of a cocky pilot. Yeah,
(38:27):
it seems like it. Well he he was no evidently
their statements recorded where he would say he could fly
through any condition. So that's that's a little bit that
kind of makes me. Plus everything else that we've talked about,
I really don't think that this is a c I,
a FBI assassination job. You don't know, Well, there's not
much in the way of that. And speaking of cockiness, besides,
(38:49):
you're required on planes like this, we're required to carry
not only the transmitter, the emergency transmitter, but you're required
to carry all kinds of survival supplies, I mean a lot.
And witness says that saw the plane before it took
off said that they didn't see any containers containing survival supplies.
You're supposed to have things like you're supposed to have
a gun, two weeks worth of food for everybody on
(39:10):
the plane, Uh, you know, heavy clothing and probably flare
a gun, and and wool blankets, your fair repellent trans susmitters,
you know. Yeah, you're supposed to have all kinds of
stuff and probably and there was Yeah, apparently there was
nothing on the plane according to witnesses that resembled the
container full of survival supplies. Yeah, and so he left it.
(39:33):
He left the survival supplies behind, and he left his
emergency transmitter behind. So yeah, you're right, it was kind
of a cocky guy. Was that on all planes? Joe?
Was that in Alaska? No? Just in general? Is it
just in Alaska that they're required to I think that's Alaska? Low? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I think it would actually be a good idea if
you're flying anywhere in the lower forty eight to carry
some survival supplies too, because just flying anywhere, yeah, because
(39:55):
you're if you crash, there's a good chance you're going
to crash in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, yuh,
better be able to be prepared to survive. Um, let's
go to another theory, uh, theory number two, which is
at the plane just crashed, it wasn't bombed or anything
like that. Back to Cokie Roberts, she said in two
thousand four that her father actually had no problems with
(40:16):
the Warren Commission's findings, and he, she said, he was
also not pushing for the investigation to be reopened. So
it turns out maybe some of that is not quite
so true. Although I saw at least one guy on
a website they called her a liar with an exclamation
point to yeah I think it was yeah, yeah, yeah.
(40:38):
She later said in too she said that Boggs was
skeptical the single bullet theory, but she also said that
she believed that Lee Harvey Oswald did act alone and
if Boggs was gonna be something different than she probably
would have said something to her about that, and Hail
Bogs never said anything to his daughter about that. Um
I was Also in fourteen she said that she she
(41:00):
here that the plane is at the bottom of Prince
William Sound and that it will probably never be found. Yeah,
because after all, this did this did take place in Alaska,
and as we said, Alaska does not like plane no people,
people and planes disappear all the time in Alaska. Uh
So it's just not that unusual. And again, if they
(41:22):
did go down because a bad weather or whatever, you know,
you can actually crash your plane. I mean, Don Jones
was a very experienced pilot, but even an experienced pilot,
if you're getting a fog bank, they really lose your bearings.
Next thing you know, you're flying upside down and maybe
flying into the flying straight down and not realizing what
you're doing, you know, And so when when you're not
(41:42):
on instruments in this guy and he was not on instruments,
it's easy to do that. Yeah. Well I also heard
that there was I swear I read somewhere that the
conditions were conducive to icing of the wings. Yeah, they
did not have anything in the way of d icing
equipment on the on the plane right, which again, if
it's coal, it's low visibility and you're flying to your
(42:03):
clouds and stuff like their wings are icing up, you
may not realize how much altitude you're losing. Yeah, which,
and then of course once you've got ice all over
your wings, their new mobility is out the window. You're
kind of host Yeah. Yeah, I think that Jones was
aware of ice. Have I saying. I think he probably,
if he was able to, would probably have tried to
get out of the clouds, and so because that's that's
(42:23):
where most of your ice comes from, I believe, Yeah,
the moisture in the clouds, So you probably tried to
climb above the clouds. Probably we don't really know what
he did. Unfortunately, ah see another theory, the theory number three,
the pilot Don Jones was paid by the to land
the plane that a remote airstrip where a hail box
was taken prisoner and tortured and interrogated. Where did you
(42:45):
find this? I made it up? But I mean realistically,
I like the theory, you know, because it involves water
boarding or whatever they did to him. Uh and uh,
you know, if they didn't want to if they didn't
want to kill him, it act it makes more sense
to bribe the pilot and have him land the plane
somewhere because if you blow the plane up with the bomb,
(43:06):
well you don't know where the wreckage is going to
end up. It could end up in the water, could
end up on land where was found, and then it
becomes obvious that the plane was blown up with the bomb.
Although if you're the FBI, you probably would be taking
you would be able to say, oh, terrorism, we got
to take over the investigation, and then you know, quote
unquote investor investigated and then say, oh, it was you
(43:27):
know whatever the big group that we don't like at
the time is. And everybody would say, oh, those guys
we had reinforces are to do bad things to them,
and then that's true. I guess it's also entirely I mean,
if you want to go that route, it's also entirely
possible that they could have a had a man on
the ground, b had a transponder and fixed location that
(43:49):
they knew it would go over and set the bomb
off or see they could have had another plane following
it to then blow it up and know where the
debris went and then knowing exactly where to go to
pick it up. That's true. I mean, that's the thing
is that, Okay, if we're going to take this conspiracy
to that level, let's not just presume that these guys
(44:10):
are the messy jerks who leave their dirty dishes in
the sink all night long. They go and clean it
up right away, so they wouldn't know where it was at.
They probably would, or they could have just I mean,
if they knew the flight path and everything, and they
knew basically then mostly it was gonna be over water,
they could have just put a bomb in there with
an altimeter trigger or a timer. Yeah, I think an
(44:33):
altimeter trigger would work better. It depends on when you
put the bomb in the plane. Like if you put
it in like say, the night before, and that you
probably want to have an altimeter trigger and even a
time or you don't know, maybe the flight gets delayed,
maybe they don't take off right away, and then you're
kind of posed because they're sitting on the air stripped
because it's frozen, and bomb goes off and then everybody
(44:54):
knows what's going on. Yeah, well then you claim terrorism, right. Yeah,
security sweets bail proof. Even the Homeland security didn't exist
at the time. Yeah, it didn't. I know, I know,
I know. Really, Homeland Security is doing such a great job.
We're holding up my bag. I'm still alive, and I
(45:15):
had them to thank for it. The n s A
is nothing if not amazing. We love them, do the
only great things. Oh, I'm seeing Devin wink at me,
and she says that, yes, we love all of those
government institutions them for keeping us safe and non infringing
on anything. Ever, they did everything right, electronic bug underneath
(45:39):
this table. We do it right, We did it well. Okay, okay, yeah,
I think we convinced him. All right, all right, so
I'm going to vote for the plane just crashed in water. Yeah,
it's like sitting at the bottom of the ocean right now,
although you never know it, maybe a crash in the
glacier and it's gonna come popping out one end of
it sooner or later. I'd be kind cool. Yeah, that's
(46:01):
entirely possible, because you know, the snow in Alaska is
melting at record fast rates now, and things that have
gone out and been buried in the snow in the
last several hundred years we're gonna start showing up. So
we may in the next decade find the Cessna. If
it did indeed crash on land and get buried in
(46:23):
a glacier, that would be cool that I'm guessing that
since this route was mainly over water, like about over water,
I think they went down to the drink, and since
sea levels are rising, we won't find it. So yes, no, never,
you never know, somebody might stumble upon it for one
reason or another. I mean, it's it's not necessarily impossible.
(46:44):
I mean, technology is marching on. We're finding ways to
you know, get Google is mapping the bottom of the ocean,
and they will find it for us. They might. I mean,
we're yeah, we're developing technologies that allow us to really
accurately scanned the bottom of the ocean. We're finding Rex,
did you hear about that, gal, and they found out
the coast of Colombia and they don't know who it
belongs to. Now, Yeah, they're trying to figure that out,
(47:06):
like seven billion dollars worth of treasure or something like
staggering about the treasure. Yeah yeah, So I wish I
could have a chunk of that too. We should just
discover it for ourselves. Yeah, yeah, no, I because you guys,
I know care. I like the conspiracy theories on this one.
They're fine, Yeah, they're fine. I think I think I
think he was murdered. I think Hale Boggs was murdered. Okay,
(47:29):
the FBI, not the CIA. You think the FBI did it, Yeah, because,
like I said, the CIA can't operate on US soil.
Yeah okay. And then did they threaten their bribe Cokey Roberts.
She just doesn't know. Why would she know? How would
you know? Yeah? As well as that's true, Okay, yeah,
they brainwashed, this is my that's ridiculous. Look, by the way,
(47:50):
is that what that is? Well? Cokey did actually disappear
at one point in the mid seventies. Dais believe that
she was sent off to a remote location and brainwashed
and false memories were implanted. See it's perfect. Yeah, okay,
there you go. Yeah, come on, let's let's keep going here.
Is there anything else do about the story? Joe, not really, Uh,
(48:12):
there's so anyway. So Devin thinks the FBI idea killed them.
I think the plane just crashed. What do you think?
Do you think the plane just crashed? Yeah, that's most likely. Okay,
all right, well another mystery solved. Right on. Alright, now
we've come to your favorite part of the podcast where
I tell you some stuff that you already know. Yeah,
if you if you want to find us down letter, episodes, whatever,
(48:34):
leave comments. So we have a website called Thinking Sideways
podcast dot com. We also have links, so we will
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(48:56):
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(49:17):
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(49:39):
always usually sometimes you know what else, We have a subreddit, right, yeah,
we have a subreadit. Uh. We are also on patreon
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(50:00):
pay for yeah. Yeah, we just had to pay a
bunch of money for our web hosting. Yeah, and uh so,
but this is totally optional, is if you because I,
you know, I can't shame anybody or anything like that,
because I there's a lot of websites I go to
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I have been clicking the clothes button myself, so I
completely understand people going the free round because I do
(50:21):
it myself. I use Wikipedia all the time. They're begging
for money right now, and I'm totally ignoring them. Yeah yeah, Okay,
Well I guess that's it. You guys have any further thoughts? No? No,
al right, Well tell you next week then Tata everybody,
Oh bye, guys, bitter everyone,
Thinking Sideways is not supported by ego terrorism. Instead, it's
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Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways to learn more
and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't know. You never know
(00:25):
stories of things we simply don't know the answer to. Hi. There,
Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm Joe your
host this week, joined by my co hosts Den and Steve.
All Right, well, you guys want to solve a really
groovy mystery. Yeah, we're we at least poles in it. Yeah,
(00:48):
this is, um, this is a kind of an interesting one.
It's not a really huge one, but people are still
chewing over it years after it happened. Yeah. This this
is because this is uh, this is tied into another big,
giant mystery, and so I'm pretty sure that's why people
are so intrigued by it. The other one is, of course,
(01:08):
the assassination of JFK. I'm sure most of you have
heard about. Yeah, so explaining to second this ties in, uh,
we are talking this week about the mysterious disappearance of
Congressman Hail Boggs in nineteen seventy two, not Hailbop not
hail bop comment many, yeah, Hailbogs. So briefly, what happened
(01:33):
is that Hail Boggs was in Alaska campaigning for another
congressman named Nick Baggage. Since Hail Boggs was the he
was the majority leader in the House and so he
was expected to go do campaigning for some of the
other candidates. Baggage was in a tight race, so he
was off. He was there headed for a fundraiser in Juneo.
They were Democrats, Yeah, yeah, And they got on an
(01:56):
assessment not three ten six Ceder plane in Anchorage along
with the pilot, John Jones and Baggage's assistant Russell Brown.
They were headed from Anchorage to Juno for a campaign fundraiser,
and long story short, the plane never made it to
Juno and the wreckage was never found. It's got vanished. Yeah. First,
(02:18):
a little background on our subject. Thomas Hale Boggs was
first elected to the House in nineteen forty. Then he
lost his re election bid in nineteen two. So he
decided to go join the navy. And so you want
to join the Navy and did a little fight in
World War Two. It was a very patriotic thing to
do with. Yeah, yeah, a lot of a lot of
people did it, and for our listeners, so they know
(02:39):
why I was just giggling in the background. Our notes
say that he was de elected, I'd say that, yeah, yeah,
he was de selected there and he elected, and then
after World War Two he made a come back in
ninety six and course yeah, yeah, he's won't served in
the war. That's got to boost your cred There's a
bunch of guys who came back from the war and
(03:00):
got right into office using that platform. I don't I
don't know that Box was a war hero exactly, but
he did his bit, you know, and that sometimes it's
all it takes. Yeah, absolutely he was. By the time
he disappeared, he was House Majority leaders. I mentioned he
was next in line for the speakership. And some of
you may have heard of his daughter, Cokie Roberts, who
was with NPR and also I think with ABC News
(03:21):
and yeah, yeah, I like listening to her. Yeah, she
still got a great voice. Yeah, she still gets asked
questions about her dad too. Bet her dad's disappearance. You know, people,
just like I said, people are still chewing over this one. Yeah,
Another thing about hail Box that's interesting is that he
served on the President's Commission on the Assassination of John Fitzgerald.
(03:42):
Kennedy also noticed a Warran commission because it was headed
by Earl Warren. Box reportedly was not happy. This is rumor,
has it not happy with the actual results of the
Warrant commission. Yeah. Reportedly, he also reportedly spoke with Jim Garrison.
You may have heard of. Kevin Costner played him in
Oliver Stone's movie JFK Oh. Yeah, Jim Jim Garrison was
(04:07):
a New Orleans District attorney. Box apparently spilled his guest
to Jim Jim Garrison and gave him enough information to
cause Garrison to indict and prosecute a New Orleans businessman
named Clay Shaw, who if you haven't heard of, you know,
watch the movie JFK or maybe I think he was
played by Tommy Lee Jones in the movie. It's been
so long since I've seen that. I don't even want
(04:28):
to hazard guests, but I didn't see it. Yeah, could
you not watch the movie? I know, I don't know.
I'm sorry. Do my research for this. Yeah. The rumor
was is that that Garrison had this, he had a
witness and he said he went to a party, like
some sort of cocktail party where Clay Shaw and some
other associates met with none other than Lee Lee Harvey
(04:50):
Oswald and a lot of the assassination of JFK. And
so he took the case to court and I think
the I don't remember how long the trial actually went
on for a while, and he made his case and
then the Jerry came back in the quitted show after
after deliberating for less than an hour. Out. Yeah, his
(05:13):
career didn't go that's kind of humiliating. Yeah, yeah, that's
because that's a major trial. So why did he spill
this guesst Garrison? If he did well? Again, as I said,
it's been rumored he wasn't satisfied with the verdict of
the Warrant Commission, and it's also been rumored that he
wanted to reopen the assassination investigation. Let's be fair, he
(05:36):
wouldn't be the only person that's true. Yeah, I was
gonna say, listen, this is the thing that is so
funny when you read about about Hillbogs is everybody makes
it out that he was running around Washington constantly screaming
what a cock up the Warrant Commission was and how
wrong it was. But you've got to look at the
(05:58):
dates here. The Warrant Commission ended in sixty four. He
died in seventy two, right, yeah, okay, years later. That's
eight years. If I don't like something over the course
of eight years, I'm probably gonna make some disparaging remarks
to it. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna that I
am so flaming angry at it as the way that
(06:20):
you you find it in a lot of the accounting. Well,
I don't know if that's true about you or not,
because I've heard you get that angry time, but not
eight years later. But not about the Warrant Commission. That's
not about the work. I was fine when I was
on the Warrant Commission. It was fine. You were satisfied
with the results, yea, now they The thing about it
(06:41):
is is like there's there's evidence both reactions. Yeah. No,
I'm just just the way it is phrased and put
two readers on the internet is why I want to
bring that up. Oh yeah, if you if you read
all this stuff in the internet, he was telling anybody
and everybody about you know, massive lize the FBI and
how you know, and how and how their investigation was
(07:03):
all cocked up and everything, and uh, you know, but
we'll talk a little bit more about that later. I
didn't want to say. Regarding the warr And Commission, a
lot of the people that served on it really actually,
we're kind of reluctant to and a couple of them
even pointed out that it's really not going to settle
the issue, will probably just make things worse. And that's
really basically what happened with the warr Commission. From the start.
(07:24):
It was everybody was a legend, cover up, cover up,
you know, and so why you even bother? Yeah, absolutely true. Yeah.
But anyway, all this, all this talk about reopening the
investigation has led to speculations still going on today that
Boggs disappearance was not an accident and he was murdered
to head off a new investigation. So they didn't do
a very good job. People are still poking around. And
(07:45):
then they did not nail the lid shot on that
one very well. Yeah, I think they missed completely knocked
the lid off. And yeah, yeah, they just stirred up
a Hornet's nest here. So there's a lot of talk
about the you know, the elements of the CIA and
murdered him. It's also talking about maybe it was the
(08:06):
FBI that did him in. The CIA couldn't have murdered him,
you don't think, so, I don't think. I don't know.
Every time somebody's like, oh, the CIA murdered this guy,
but did it happen on US soil, then it probably
wasn't the CIA thinks, right, think isn't that the thing?
The CIA can't operate on US soil without a different
department quote unquote heading it. Well, yeah, but you know,
(08:31):
if they're if they're doing something as the illegal is
murdering people, they probably don't care or you just got
the FBI to do it for you. There pretty much
and the FBI don't really like each other. That's true. Yeah,
I don't know. That's just always my initial reaction when
I hear things like that it's finally coming out on
the show. I tend to be a little skeptical about
(08:51):
that whole thing. Might when I take of the CIA,
I don't think of cloak and dagger, and I don't
think of special black ops, and you know, wet work
and stuff like that. I think of just blistering incompetence.
That's what the lake. Yeah maybe he did it. Oh yeah,
No more talk about those guys. Okay, I want to
stay alive. Uh So we should fraably get back to
(09:14):
hail Bogs. Yah. Let's talk to hail Box here for
a minute. The hail Box actually, speaking of the FBI,
had a good relationship with Jager Hoover. I read to
a bit of his FBI files and there were a
lot of there was a lot of correspondence back and
forth on various issues, and hail Bogs was constantly praising
Hoover and the FBI and the Audiadiada, which is so
(09:35):
counter to some of the louder websites that you find
on this story, and it's so funny. Well, things did
change a little bit. Things did change, yeah, and by
by April nineteen seventy one. In April nineteen seventy one,
Bogs claimed that he discovered a bug and his telephone
at home and he thought it was the FBI to
put it there. And then in maybe two weeks later,
(09:57):
he gave a speech before Congress in which he called
for Jaker, who were to resign. Yeah, and he was.
He was drawing like parallels between Jacker Hooger and the
FBI and the Soviets and stuff like this and all
this stuff. Yeah, yeah, Did you did either of you
listen to the because obviously Nixon wasn't very happy about that.
(10:18):
Did you listen to the tapes the from Nixon when
he was talking to I think it was, yeah, Jerry
because he called him Jerry, so it was for when
he was talking to him, and it's They always say, well,
then this is proof that Nixon wanted him out, and
Nixon's not happy with him. But I had never heard
(10:38):
any of the tapes from Nixon before, and it is
the weirdest conversation in the world to listen to. Did
either of you get it? Is? I have never heard
such a leading conversation. In other words, Nixon would start
talking and there would be a question in there, and
then Ford would start, you know, oh yes or oh yes, sir,
(11:02):
oh yes, sir to answer the question and make him
feel better, and then he would just ride over him
and then he would oh, okay, well I gotta let
you go. I gotta go, and then he'd do it
all over again. It was the weirdest thing in the
world to listen to. And I didn't know why everybody
made such a fuss about it. It really was just
I don't think that guy should have done that, And
(11:23):
I think we got a problem. So you should have
somebody look into this. Okay, thanks by got a problem
with Boggs, a problem with with Hoover, with Bosh, Yeah,
with Bogs and everything he was saying against Hoover. Yeah. Yeah,
And I know that Nixon was not about to touch Hoover.
I mean, you know a story nobody. Yeah, Hoover was untouchable. Yeah,
(11:44):
he's got his own damn. Yeah, seriously, and he uh
he had the goods on everybody, the rumor has and
so yeah, everybody was afraid to go after Hohoover. This
is why his grave is hidden, because it's all in
his coffin. Yeah, secrets. Ye. I would love to get
my hands on his files. So cool, you and me both.
Yeah anyway, Yeah, so something changed boxes mind about j
(12:05):
Edgar Um. Now back to our faithful plane ride. The morning.
It was the morning of October six, nineteen seventy two.
The weather was so so it's fog, low clouds, a
little drizzle, you remember I was there. Yeah, yeah, and uh.
There was a company called pan Alaska that was only
a guy named Don Jones who piloted this this plane
(12:27):
that was the plane was one of their planes. It's Jones.
It's in case somebody's going to go out in google
it Z. It's j O and Z, which isn't exactly
the intuitive spelling of the word. Yeah, I've heard it
pronounced John's as well. Yeah. I was just about to
say it could be Johns, I don't know, or or
Juan's yawns. But it's Jon Jones. Now it could be
(12:50):
John Z for all we know, but for our purposes
we'll just call him Jones. His flight plan basically was
that they were going to the town of Yakutat and
probably this meant that pronouncing that, But they're going by
via airway V three seventeen, which is a flight route.
It's a flight route. Yeah, yeah, and uh and from
and once they got to Yakutut, then yak Yakutat, they
(13:13):
would go on a straight line to Juno. From there,
it was supposed to be about it about a three
and a half hour trip. So the route goes southeast
from Ancoras to what's called Portage Pass through the mountains,
and then it veers leftward a bit and goes pretty
much more or less straight to Yakutat, and then from
there it was to not just just a little bit
right ward carries on to Juneo, but it leaves to
(13:35):
the V seventeen flight path. So it's pretty much overland. No, no,
it's mostly over water. Mostly over water. That's that's actually
you have the I've got a map of it. Yeah,
so what you're looking at it. It's funny is that
I had looked up what the current normal route is
between the two cities. Yeah, and most commercial airlines today
(13:58):
actually take an arc between the two and they stay
inland for most of that trip. So it was really
interesting when I saw this that it was actually but
it's on the coastline. Over water, but on the coastline. Yeah,
that's pretty much. Yeah. So yeah, it takes off, goes
to Portage Pass and then heads off across Pritts Williams
Sound and then you know, it's mostly over water, but
(14:21):
it's it's not that far off the coast, so if
you get a little bit of trouble, maybe you can
find the innikulated dry land before you crash. The water
is cold, it be hard, Yeah, it would suck either way. Yeah,
Don Jones, the pilot said that he was going to
fly under visual flight rules. What does that mean? The
visual flight rules means that it's that that's what you
do when the weather it's clear enough that you can
(14:42):
see all around you. And and then instrument flight rules
are when when conditions are very limited visibility, then you're
supposed to be able to fly by instruments instead of
just by using your just fly by side or fly
by instrument. He was doing fly by sight, yeah, he was. Yeah,
and you know, kind of foggy cloud weather and he
was of course he was qualified to do both, right
(15:04):
he was. Yeah. I mean he's this guy had like
seventeen thousand hours of flight experience. That's it. I think
that's probably an important thing to mention as well, because
it's not Yeah, and so I don't know if he
was just getting cocky or what, but yeah, he But
the NTSB investigated this and wrote a report in nineteen
seventy three, that's when they released it. Anyway, those uninitiated
(15:24):
TSB National Transportation Safety Board. That's it listens about that.
I'm thank you for saying that, because I read it
and I was like, oh, I know what that is,
and then just continued months. Good call. Yeah, okay, it's
but according to their report quote the weather conditions along
the proposed route, we're not conducive to flight under visual
(15:47):
flight rules criteria unquote. Yeah, but anyway, that's what they did.
They took off at nine am. Last communication with anchorage
tower was at nine oh nine am, and reportedly they
disap as they were approaching the Chugach Mountain Range. I
hope I'm pronouncing that right. Probably not, so the plant
didn't even make it to Yakoo, tad All. An interesting
(16:08):
factory about the Chugach Mountains is that they get more
snowfall than any other place in the world. What they do,
annual average snowfall is si So if they're playing did
happen to crash in the in the in those mountains, well,
it's not a surprised. I never found that. That absolutely
(16:29):
is for our not American everybody else who uses the
metric system metrified, that's fifteen point to five. Yeah, so
that's not nothing. It's not a lot of snow. You
(16:51):
can make an awesome. Snowman really big one, yeah, or
a lot of them. Snowman army, Yeah, would be great.
Give them a little hats, send them marching on anchor
don't watch Dr Who. I remember that episode they have
testy little teeth that they have actual carnivorous snowman or something.
(17:11):
I saw that one they did. I like it. Back
where we are we Yeah, So the plane was supposed
to arrive in Juneo at twelve thirty PM. At one
fifteen it was reported overdue. So the US Air Force
Rescue Coordination Center checked with all the air fields that
were anywhere near the plane's flight path, and nobody had
seen or heard anything from the plane, so that he
didn't make an emergency landing anywhere. And they were in
(17:33):
a six You said it was a six seeded Cessna. Yeah,
twin engine Cessna with six seeds. I am never going
to get an as Sessa. Yeah right, yeah, yeah, they diverted.
There was already an an airborne HC one thirty plane
up in the air, so they diverted that to go
look for the plane, and of course they brought in
lots more resources. This was one of the biggest searches
(17:55):
ever they spent thirty nine days looking for theseus I
guess you will. Yeah, yeah. Uh So the planes helicopters,
both government owned in private, and they served s thousands
of square miles of land and also Coastguard cutters along
with merchant marine vessels and fishing vessels search Prince William Sound,
(18:17):
the Gulf of Alaska and the Icy Straits area around Juneau,
and they found nothing, not even a bit of wreckage
floating in the water. Nothing. And then an interesting little
side side. Some people have made a lot of this
like they have. In October eighteenth, nineteen seventy two, the
fbis Los Angeles office got a call from a guy.
And I've heard this two ways. One was the FBI
I got a call from the guy, and the animal
(18:38):
was that this guy called the Long Beach Coast Guard Office. Yeah.
I have actually seen it both ways, now that you
say that. Yeah. And so this guy claimed work for
a company that specialized in quote surveillance technologies unquote, and
that they had located the plane via either some sort
of radio transmission or via the transmission from its emergency
location transmitter. Because most planes carry the fact that they
(19:01):
all carry the days today they all do. They didn't
carryhim in those days necessarily. This actually, this crash is
why all planes now have HE transponders in them, which
are really really effective, as we know from recent crashes. Yeah,
they're very helpful in finding crashes. They are kind of
helpful usually. The first time I ever saw when I
(19:23):
was in a little two seater sessment with this guy
that I knew, yeah, I was incess. I am like,
actually this guy was. I really did kind of take
my life in my hands because this guy was actually
a fairly novice pilot and he wanted to go for
and and so we rented this plane and took off
from Vancouver, Washington and want to flew around not Saint
Helen's cannon came back and that's when I know that
(19:44):
I saw my first emergency transit. Emergency transmitter and says
it looks like like a walkie talkie mounted in a
really heavy duty bracket towards the back of the plane,
and it's got a tagle switch on the top of it,
and there's a little rail and it's got this heavy
weight on it. So the whole idea is when I
was plane goes Chris Smack action to something that heavyweight's
gonna go back forward and toggle that switch. Very simple,
(20:06):
you know, Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, but yeah, and
under Alaska law, you were required to have some sort
of emergency transmitter if you didn't have one mounted in
your plane, and then you could have a portable unit
with with the pilot so you could do that. So
Alaska did require them in this particular case. Just so
over so I remember that that's two days after the
(20:28):
crash that that guy called. Oh yeah, yeah, that's yeah,
back to that until totally got off the track. That's okay,
it is, yeah, two days yeah, so two days after
the crash or two days after the disappearance. Yeah, that's
when he called. And then um, yeah, so this guy
and he gave the coordinates of the crash site and
although he didn't really give the coordinates as in ladder
(20:49):
price precise latitude and longitude. Instead he gave these really
strange directions. Yeah. Yeah. He also said that there were
two people still alive there. He said, you know how
he would know that, Well, that's kind of what I'm
wondering too, because you know, then it must have neces
sort of radio transmission. But what I don't understand is
how it is that nobody else heard this? Yeah, or
maybe they were doing like a flyover thermal. In the
(21:11):
more real websites that you see, they say that at
the time, the U. S. Government had the ability to
actually track individual people and could pick up some kind
of special radio and I don't know, I I don't
understand it because it's really kind of fringe. E. It
(21:34):
was his it was his fillings anyway, it was their
electrical magnetic field. Everybody, they could track you by your
personal electromagnetic field because what it was, and that they
had the technology to do it, but they couldn't reveal that.
So of course, whenever anybody said, well, how do you
know that? But I can't tell you that? Or who
do you work for? I can't tell you that because
(21:56):
technically it's a government institution that he works for. It
was the goofiest thing if you and you have the
what he said, yes and that the directions right, Yes, yes,
is our our highly highly reliable sources. They call him
the FBI. I think they called him that. But okay,
(22:17):
so here's how it goes. The it's is draw a
straight line from Anchorage to Juno Head west from JUNO
two hundred and an unknown number because we don't know
what it is because the photocopy is so bad that Yeah,
the tent. So it's hundred and blank six and one
(22:40):
half miles across the Yakutat Bay and the Malsapoena Glacier.
Draw a line from that point to the coast. Go
back north along that line six point four or three
miles to the downed plane. That, ladies and gentlemen, is
a geographic word problem. Yeah, that's like an s A
(23:01):
T question. It kind of is. I don't I don't
unders understand why if they couldn't just give like the
latitude and longitude. Maybe I have theories on it, and
we'll talk about that when we get into the theories section.
But that is that, that is the way that the
directions were given. Yeah, the FBI and did go interview
this guy. Unfortunately, his name has been redacted in their records,
(23:23):
so I don't know what his name was, but yeah,
they were part of that. He quote appeared rational, extremely intelligent,
but somewhat strange unquote, and he was also evasive, like said,
he wouldn't say where his what his company was, or
exactly what they did wouldn't talk about that. And then uh,
the FBI asked him again like later on, they if
(23:45):
he knew anything about like what frequency these radio transmissions
were on, or what any of these messages were, like
what the text of matches were he was He wouldn't say,
so he was absolutely part of the fringe, yeah, right,
or pranks. Yeah, it could have been a prankster. Yeah. Uh.
The FBI did pass the info on to the relevant people.
(24:08):
The area was reportedly searched and nothing was found. Uh,
and after that day decided the source was a flake.
And also again the plane, even though it didn't have
any in an e l T Emergency location transmitter, the
pilot still was supposed to carry one, but Don Jones
and e LT was found later on board another Pan
Alaska airplane. This is weird. I mean, I guess it's
(24:30):
I think that he went from one plane to the
next and left. Yeah. Yeah, but I guess again it's
one of those. You know, he was a pretty accomplished pilot. Yeah,
he didn't feel like it was really necessary. Coincidence that
he decided to choose the wrong kind of way to fly.
It's a coincidence that he managed to leave his transmitter
on a different plane. Oh yeah, I mean, I don't
(24:52):
think there's anything a dark conspiracy or anything like that.
I think, but it is. It's a lot of a
lot of oh say yeah, yeah, I don't know. Maybe
maybe the pilot was feeling a little down and decided
to take himself out. And we've seen it before. Yeah,
I know. Uh so it appears that there was no
emergency transmitter. Now the plane, of course had other radios
(25:15):
in it, but how well those would be working after
a plane crash, I don't know. Yeah, especially under snow. Yeah, yeah,
I don't think it dove all the way down through
really hard. Well, it was in the sky, I'll give
you that. That was I'm thinking of that plane that
(25:37):
crashed in South America decades ago, and it's they were
they were in a head wind and they didn't realize
that they had not They were traveling basically from Buenos
Aires to Peru, and so because of the head wind,
they weren't as far west as they thought they were,
so they started their descent too early and they sort
of crashed into the side. Yeah. I was just reading
about that the other day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then
(25:58):
the most recently what happened is they wind up being
becoming part of a glacier, and now parts of the
plane are starting to come out of the glacier, the
front of the glacier. Yeah, after all those years decades, Yeah,
the planes finally popping out. Maybe that and maybe that's
what's gonna happen here. Maybe you'll start coming out of
a glacier one of these days. That plane crashed and
it was forty six or forty seven or something like that,
(26:20):
and these guys who were ha been in World War Two,
So yeah, I remember that anyway. But that's all that's
were I want to get off track. That's okay. It's
people love to just hear us talk, even if we're
not saying anything. But yeah, but as far as if
they heard radio transmissions, like vote voice radio transmissions, it's
(26:41):
kind of surprising nobody else did, although several independent Ham
operators in northern California said they spoke with someone or
at least heard a transmission from someone on the plane
after it crashed who said that there were survivors. And
then again, it's another one of those weird things right
where it's like, but why so far away is that
everybody was hearing it. You know, why weren't people why
(27:03):
you know, why didn't the airports in the area that
we're on the radio? When didn't they pick up operators
in Oregon and Washington and Canada picking it? Yeah, that's
a good question. But was it only California, just only
northern California maybe? Yeah, reminds me of Lost Boiler Area. Yeah,
(27:24):
maybe the plane actually crashed in California. That's why they
couldn't find it. They were way of course. Yeah that
is a terrible yeah. Yeah, so our mystery. Then what
happened to Bog's Beggett, Brown and Jones. Yeah, it sounds
like a law firm. Huh. There are three possibilities excluding
up in the aliens. Yeah. Um, you know, I'm also
(27:46):
going to exclude the they went off to go start
a new life somewhere else theory. You don't actually do that. Yeah,
you totally keep going in there. Yeah, so three possibilities.
Here's number one, the CIA or and or the FBI
arranged to have a bomb planet on the airplane. That
this is a lot of people believe that there was
a bomb. Um some people believe that the CIA assassin
wasn't not other than Bill Clinton. Is that real? Yeah,
(28:10):
that's real. I found it on at least two or
three websites. Supposedly Clinton was a young man and he
drove bogs to the airport to get on the plane
that took him to Alaska, not the plane that went down. Well, yeah,
everybody takes it takes us as Yeah, he drove him
to the airport in Alaska and and just snuck a
bomb in Texas or something like that. Weren't they the
(28:32):
dollars airport? Dollars airports in New York? Right? And Dallas
is Washington, Virginia. So Washington d C me no geography
quite well, surrounding area. Yeah, I mean it's not in DC.
It's got to be I'm thinking of Dallas Fort Worth. Then, yeah,
that's it. Just a little confused. Yeah, well, you know,
(28:52):
I was a little confused as soon as I heard
that Old Bill Clinton was response would explain why he
was elected to isn't as payment? That's that's gotta be it.
So he probably drove into the airport and says, hey,
I just got a little part of the gift for
you here. I don't want you to until you get
to Juno, and don't mind the ticken. I have never
(29:14):
heard your Bill Clinton impression, but it's pretty good. Thank you. So,
so Clinton is the assassin? Which Clinton was the assassin? Yeah,
I'm sorry. The only thing that he has been able
to assassinate that I've ever known of is his wife's
dignity and his own character. Yeah, okay, but continue on
(29:35):
with this. Okay, So where where the c A or
FBI had a bomb planet on the plane? As I
said earlier, he was pushing, supposedly pushing to reopen the
investigation into the assassination, and he had to be silenced. Um,
it's said, It's been said that Box was suspicious that
there was CIA and or Cuban government involvement in the assassination. Yeah,
(29:57):
because you know that is the thing. Ok Yeah. An
author named John H. Davis wrote a book about one
of Bog's associates. I don't think I don't know how
closely he was associated with this guy, but the guy,
it was kind of a mafiosa sort of guy. And
then he said that he wrote that Box was skeptical
(30:18):
the FBI investigation as conclusions. He said also that years
after the fact that one of Bog's former aids said, quote,
Hale always returned to one thing. Hooverlied his eyes out
to the commission on Oswald on Ruby on their friends,
the bullets of the guns you name it unquote of
course says it's just you know what, kind of like
(30:40):
third hand kind of stuff kind of hearsay, yeah. Yeah. Alternatively,
the FBI might have done it because Boggs disc jag
or Hoover, as I said, he did, announced him and
demanded his resignation in April. Possibility. Yeah, of course, Hoover
died five months before the disappearance of the plane. But
you never know. I mean, maybe he gave the order
in the assassins, just waited until October because that was
(31:03):
the propetious time to do it, because after all, Alaska
and small airplanes don't really get along that well, even
though if you have to happen to get around. I mean,
they seem to disappear a hell of a lot up there,
or crash or not disappear, but they crashed, they don't
fare well. Yeah uh. And also bolstering the FBI theory,
(31:26):
Nick Baggage, his son who was also named Nick Baggage,
said in two thousand and eleven and then interview that
the FBI knew where the down airplane was but didn't
turn over the information to the coast Guard, and so
the plane survivors were basically left to die in the wilderness.
That's what he claimed. And yeah, I know, well, it's
just I mean, I don't know. I usually when when
(31:48):
the kids of the victims of things buy into these
conspiracy theories, they champion the conspiracy. I had a kind
of I don't know, like adds a little more to me.
You know, they their parents pretty well, they would know
if they had that sense of like that that was
actually probably gonna happen to them or not. But obviously,
I mean, like I don't think that Cokey Roberts thinks
(32:08):
that just happened. So yeah, she's kind of the polar opposite.
But yeah, it's interesting. It's I don't know, but that's
always interesting to me. Yeah, it's always I think, you know,
especially once your parents or something like that, I mean,
you want to want to be something more historically significant,
and there's just gotten the crash. Yeah, but he said
that they did it mainly to uh, I'm not so
(32:30):
sure that he buys. He hasn't didn't really say anything
about the whole uh JFK assassination thing. But he thought
he thought the FBI just had the technology to find them,
but it was new and classified, its super secret. They
didn't want to give away their their sources by sense,
so they basically chose to let these people all die,
which I don't I don't believe in seventy two they
(32:52):
had any sort of sort of super mystical It had
to be a satellite. Yeah, I think about it. And
it was looking up the satellite list that had been
launched and were available at that time, and it didn't
get an impression from anything that was out there that
we had anything remotely capable of doing that unless the
FBI had, you know, actually bugged in his bloodstream. Hail bogs.
(33:17):
Think they put a little tracker chip in him that
could be to know where he was at all times,
to make sure he wasn't up to no good. Yeah,
that could be that technology existed then, Yeah, Yeah, well
we had and we had we did have spy satellites
and stuff, but you know, you kind of like they're
not necessarily going to pass over that particular spot at
(33:39):
that particular time. Yeah, and that and there, uh, you know,
they might go over that spot once every now and
again unless you want to change their change their orbit
a bit, which they're kind of reluctant to do because
they have limited fuel on board. I don't know why
Google didn't get a picture of it. Uh yeah, Well,
speaking of Google, can we talk about this whole the
(34:01):
guy who said he knew the coordinates thing a little
bit more or no? Because I used Google Transition, Yes,
got it, because I I kind of I kind of
went a little crazy on this this word problem that
they gave us about how that heat where he said
they knew where Boggs was, and there's some serious problems
(34:23):
with it. And I'm gonna say at the outset that
I'm pretty sure the problems with it are that somebody
did their quote unquote calculations. They did it on a
paper map using a ruler and a pencil, and you know,
doing the distance conversions from x amount of distance equels
a mile. So their their scale is probably what screwed
(34:45):
him up. If we go back to what this person said,
it said from Juno, head west from Juno, which is
the southernmost point of their route, because we're just north
of it or north west of you know, well, the
two hundred number two hundred blank in that has to
(35:06):
be a low number. Okay, so it's two hundred and six, Well,
that means it's gonna be like two six to put
it around that glacier that he's talking about. But in
a straight line. There's almost no land that that on
the line of that they're running. So when it says
(35:27):
follow that line, hit this this mile point, and then
draw a line to the coast, well, I don't know
what that line to the coast means. But then track
that back north six point four three miles, Well that
does put them completely in Basically, it puts them in
the middle of what's the glacier there, the Mallas Spina glacier.
(35:50):
That's the one that they reference, which is a Piedmont glacier,
which is a weird glacier because it's kind of flat
and from space it almost looks like somebody dropped a
white drop of paint in blue the way it kind
of echoes out. But it's a real flat area, so
it would have been pretty easy for the search planes
to find it because there's no major cavasses and crags
(36:13):
and stuff in there. So a my first problem is
is that the course that they the point that they
call out on the course is over water. So it's
hard to go to the coast because I infer it
to head south from the line to coastline and then
head north. But even if it's just heading directly north,
it doesn't make any sense. It's it's such an easy
(36:35):
flat area to find somebody. So that's why I consider
the whole thing just so badly done. And somebody who
thought they knew what they were talking about be still
a map and they were kind of a cook. Yeah,
I think I think the guy was just I think
it was probably just because you know, I guess some
guy wanted attention. Maybe I don't know, but I spent
(36:56):
I spent way too much time on Google Earth trying
to map out these coordinates, and just it's just a
strange way to give the give the coordinates to the
crash site. As you say, if they had crashed on
that placier, then they're probably even if they're playing had
fallen down a crevass, you'd see it. It's some nice,
big long skid marks and a little bit of debreed
and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So between the
(37:20):
FBI and the CIA. I'm gonna go with the CIA,
mainly because since they were employing Bill Clinton, that makes
him an assassin and murderer, so that's kind of fun.
But yeah, I guess we said he drove into the
Dollas Airport, but he was nowhere near Alaska in the
day that the plane took off. I think that Cloe
can clear Clinton of this and a way, but maybe
somebody else planning bomb on the on the plane and Anchorage,
(37:42):
and it's always possible even if it wasn't Bill Clinton.
But according to the National Transportation Safety Boards report, UH
says probably not because at eight am that day, Don
Jones took the plane to the refueling pitch at Anchorage
International Airport. The witnesses there's said nothing was put on
the plane except for gasoline, and after that Jones taxied
(38:04):
the plane to a rap near the control tower where
the three passengers got on, and witness there said that
a small amount of baggage passenger baggage was also placed
on the plane, but that was it, although of course
there could have been a bomb in one of the bags. Yeah,
you know, I suppose, you know, I think the thing
is John's was a kind of a cocky pilot. Yeah,
(38:27):
it seems like it. Well he he was no evidently
their statements recorded where he would say he could fly
through any condition. So that's that's a little bit that
kind of makes me. Plus everything else that we've talked about,
I really don't think that this is a c I,
a FBI assassination job. You don't know, Well, there's not
much in the way of that. And speaking of cockiness, besides,
(38:49):
you're required on planes like this, we're required to carry
not only the transmitter, the emergency transmitter, but you're required
to carry all kinds of survival supplies, I mean a lot.
And witness says that saw the plane before it took
off said that they didn't see any containers containing survival supplies.
You're supposed to have things like you're supposed to have
a gun, two weeks worth of food for everybody on
(39:10):
the plane, Uh, you know, heavy clothing and probably flare
a gun, and and wool blankets, your fair repellent trans susmitters,
you know. Yeah, you're supposed to have all kinds of
stuff and probably and there was Yeah, apparently there was
nothing on the plane according to witnesses that resembled the
container full of survival supplies. Yeah, and so he left it.
(39:33):
He left the survival supplies behind, and he left his
emergency transmitter behind. So yeah, you're right, it was kind
of a cocky guy. Was that on all planes? Joe?
Was that in Alaska? No? Just in general? Is it
just in Alaska that they're required to I think that's Alaska? Low? Yeah, yeah, yeah,
I think it would actually be a good idea if
you're flying anywhere in the lower forty eight to carry
some survival supplies too, because just flying anywhere, yeah, because
(39:55):
you're if you crash, there's a good chance you're going
to crash in the middle of nowhere. So yeah, yuh,
better be able to be prepared to survive. Um, let's
go to another theory, uh, theory number two, which is
at the plane just crashed, it wasn't bombed or anything
like that. Back to Cokie Roberts, she said in two
thousand four that her father actually had no problems with
(40:16):
the Warren Commission's findings, and he, she said, he was
also not pushing for the investigation to be reopened. So
it turns out maybe some of that is not quite
so true. Although I saw at least one guy on
a website they called her a liar with an exclamation
point to yeah I think it was yeah, yeah, yeah.
(40:38):
She later said in too she said that Boggs was
skeptical the single bullet theory, but she also said that
she believed that Lee Harvey Oswald did act alone and
if Boggs was gonna be something different than she probably
would have said something to her about that, and Hail
Bogs never said anything to his daughter about that. Um
I was Also in fourteen she said that she she
(41:00):
here that the plane is at the bottom of Prince
William Sound and that it will probably never be found. Yeah,
because after all, this did this did take place in Alaska,
and as we said, Alaska does not like plane no people,
people and planes disappear all the time in Alaska. Uh
So it's just not that unusual. And again, if they
(41:22):
did go down because a bad weather or whatever, you know,
you can actually crash your plane. I mean, Don Jones
was a very experienced pilot, but even an experienced pilot,
if you're getting a fog bank, they really lose your bearings.
Next thing you know, you're flying upside down and maybe
flying into the flying straight down and not realizing what
you're doing, you know, And so when when you're not
(41:42):
on instruments in this guy and he was not on instruments,
it's easy to do that. Yeah. Well I also heard
that there was I swear I read somewhere that the
conditions were conducive to icing of the wings. Yeah, they
did not have anything in the way of d icing
equipment on the on the plane right, which again, if
it's coal, it's low visibility and you're flying to your
(42:03):
clouds and stuff like their wings are icing up, you
may not realize how much altitude you're losing. Yeah, which,
and then of course once you've got ice all over
your wings, their new mobility is out the window. You're
kind of host Yeah. Yeah, I think that Jones was
aware of ice. Have I saying. I think he probably,
if he was able to, would probably have tried to
get out of the clouds, and so because that's that's
(42:23):
where most of your ice comes from, I believe, Yeah,
the moisture in the clouds, So you probably tried to
climb above the clouds. Probably we don't really know what
he did. Unfortunately, ah see another theory, the theory number three,
the pilot Don Jones was paid by the to land
the plane that a remote airstrip where a hail box
was taken prisoner and tortured and interrogated. Where did you
(42:45):
find this? I made it up? But I mean realistically,
I like the theory, you know, because it involves water
boarding or whatever they did to him. Uh and uh,
you know, if they didn't want to if they didn't
want to kill him, it act it makes more sense
to bribe the pilot and have him land the plane
somewhere because if you blow the plane up with the bomb,
(43:06):
well you don't know where the wreckage is going to
end up. It could end up in the water, could
end up on land where was found, and then it
becomes obvious that the plane was blown up with the bomb.
Although if you're the FBI, you probably would be taking
you would be able to say, oh, terrorism, we got
to take over the investigation, and then you know, quote
unquote investor investigated and then say, oh, it was you
(43:27):
know whatever the big group that we don't like at
the time is. And everybody would say, oh, those guys
we had reinforces are to do bad things to them,
and then that's true. I guess it's also entirely I mean,
if you want to go that route, it's also entirely
possible that they could have a had a man on
the ground, b had a transponder and fixed location that
(43:49):
they knew it would go over and set the bomb
off or see they could have had another plane following
it to then blow it up and know where the
debris went and then knowing exactly where to go to
pick it up. That's true. I mean, that's the thing
is that, Okay, if we're going to take this conspiracy
to that level, let's not just presume that these guys
(44:10):
are the messy jerks who leave their dirty dishes in
the sink all night long. They go and clean it
up right away, so they wouldn't know where it was at.
They probably would, or they could have just I mean,
if they knew the flight path and everything, and they
knew basically then mostly it was gonna be over water,
they could have just put a bomb in there with
an altimeter trigger or a timer. Yeah, I think an
(44:33):
altimeter trigger would work better. It depends on when you
put the bomb in the plane. Like if you put
it in like say, the night before, and that you
probably want to have an altimeter trigger and even a
time or you don't know, maybe the flight gets delayed,
maybe they don't take off right away, and then you're
kind of posed because they're sitting on the air stripped
because it's frozen, and bomb goes off and then everybody
(44:54):
knows what's going on. Yeah, well then you claim terrorism, right. Yeah,
security sweets bail proof. Even the Homeland security didn't exist
at the time. Yeah, it didn't. I know, I know,
I know. Really, Homeland Security is doing such a great job.
We're holding up my bag. I'm still alive, and I
(45:15):
had them to thank for it. The n s A
is nothing if not amazing. We love them, do the
only great things. Oh, I'm seeing Devin wink at me,
and she says that, yes, we love all of those
government institutions them for keeping us safe and non infringing
on anything. Ever, they did everything right, electronic bug underneath
(45:39):
this table. We do it right, We did it well. Okay, okay, yeah,
I think we convinced him. All right, all right, so
I'm going to vote for the plane just crashed in water. Yeah,
it's like sitting at the bottom of the ocean right now,
although you never know it, maybe a crash in the
glacier and it's gonna come popping out one end of
it sooner or later. I'd be kind cool. Yeah, that's
(46:01):
entirely possible, because you know, the snow in Alaska is
melting at record fast rates now, and things that have
gone out and been buried in the snow in the
last several hundred years we're gonna start showing up. So
we may in the next decade find the Cessna. If
it did indeed crash on land and get buried in
(46:23):
a glacier, that would be cool that I'm guessing that
since this route was mainly over water, like about over water,
I think they went down to the drink, and since
sea levels are rising, we won't find it. So yes, no, never,
you never know, somebody might stumble upon it for one
reason or another. I mean, it's it's not necessarily impossible.
(46:44):
I mean, technology is marching on. We're finding ways to
you know, get Google is mapping the bottom of the ocean,
and they will find it for us. They might. I mean,
we're yeah, we're developing technologies that allow us to really
accurately scanned the bottom of the ocean. We're finding Rex,
did you hear about that, gal, and they found out
the coast of Colombia and they don't know who it
belongs to. Now, Yeah, they're trying to figure that out,
(47:06):
like seven billion dollars worth of treasure or something like
staggering about the treasure. Yeah yeah, So I wish I
could have a chunk of that too. We should just
discover it for ourselves. Yeah, yeah, no, I because you guys,
I know care. I like the conspiracy theories on this one.
They're fine, Yeah, they're fine. I think I think I
think he was murdered. I think Hale Boggs was murdered. Okay,
(47:29):
the FBI, not the CIA. You think the FBI did it, Yeah, because,
like I said, the CIA can't operate on US soil.
Yeah okay. And then did they threaten their bribe Cokey Roberts.
She just doesn't know. Why would she know? How would
you know? Yeah? As well as that's true, Okay, yeah,
they brainwashed, this is my that's ridiculous. Look, by the way,
(47:50):
is that what that is? Well? Cokey did actually disappear
at one point in the mid seventies. Dais believe that
she was sent off to a remote location and brainwashed
and false memories were implanted. See it's perfect. Yeah, okay,
there you go. Yeah, come on, let's let's keep going here.
Is there anything else do about the story? Joe, not really, Uh,
(48:12):
there's so anyway. So Devin thinks the FBI idea killed them.
I think the plane just crashed. What do you think?
Do you think the plane just crashed? Yeah, that's most likely. Okay,
all right, well another mystery solved. Right on. Alright, now
we've come to your favorite part of the podcast where
I tell you some stuff that you already know. Yeah,
if you if you want to find us down letter, episodes, whatever,
(48:34):
leave comments. So we have a website called Thinking Sideways
podcast dot com. We also have links, so we will
post some links to some kind of like websites. They
are kind of like what tinfoil hat kind of websites. Well,
it depends on the ones that you select. Yeah, yeah,
without christ for our on iTunes, so you can subscribe,
You can leave us a rating and a review. We
(48:56):
really like that. You can stream us from anywhere. We're
on face Book, So Thinking Sideways on Facebook, don't try
to friend us, but we do have a group, so
you want to join the group or the like the page. Yeah,
I like the page or both. Yeah, Twitter, we're thinking
sideways without the g um and uh for email, send
(49:17):
us an email. We're thinking sideways podcast at gmail dot
com and send us thoughtful praising emails or even if
you have criticisms. We've gotten a few criticisms from people,
but they're they're often constructive, sometimes offen like you know, batty,
but usually constructive. Uh, we are only the way you
were trying to phrase that was not always constructive, not
(49:39):
always usually sometimes you know what else, We have a subreddit, right, yeah,
we have a subreadit. Uh. We are also on patreon
dot com. That's uh Patreon if you haven't heard about
it before. Is uh the site where you can go
and you can pledge a certain amount of money, like
you know, a bucket episode or whatever. It's totally optional,
but it helps us out because we just had to
(50:00):
pay for yeah. Yeah, we just had to pay a
bunch of money for our web hosting. Yeah, and uh so,
but this is totally optional, is if you because I,
you know, I can't shame anybody or anything like that,
because I there's a lot of websites I go to
all the time, so there's a lot of campaigning, and
I have been clicking the clothes button myself, so I
completely understand people going the free round because I do
(50:21):
it myself. I use Wikipedia all the time. They're begging
for money right now, and I'm totally ignoring them. Yeah yeah, Okay,
Well I guess that's it. You guys have any further thoughts? No? No,
al right, Well tell you next week then Tata everybody,
Oh bye, guys, bitter everyone,
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