Thinking Sideways: Dr. Bogle and Mrs. Chandler

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, exciting news. I'm really really stoked about this.
On March seventh, at noon Pacific Standard time, Team Sideways
is going to host an a m A on the
Unresolved Mysteries subreddit on Reddit. Pretty exciting. Hell yeah, yeah,
So the mods will post an announcement a week prior,
so if you can't join us at that time, at

(00:21):
that date, you can post your questions there. Um, please
don't email us questions will lose them and forget them.
Let's try and contain this just to Reddit. But we're
super excited and uh yeah, so if you can join us. Sorry,
just in case somebody you know, five years from now,

(00:41):
I was listening to this episode, not two thousand seventeen.
This is not true yourself two thousand seventeen. Sorry, Thinking Sideways.
I don't understand. You never know stories of things we

(01:04):
don't know the answer too. Well. Hey, and welcome again
to another episode of Thinking Sideways the podcast. The podcast.
I'm Steve as always, joined by Devin Joe, and once
again we get to tackle a mystery. It's a big
on this one, it is, and once again it's we

(01:27):
do this every now and again it's time for us
to take on a story that's big enough that we've
got to take it on as a team. Yeah, so
this is one of our big shows, So be prepared.
This one's going to go on for a while because
there's a lot, a lot of details and intrigue and
just kind of unusual things are unexpected things, despite what

(01:47):
the Wikipedia page will tell you about this mystery. And yeah,
somebody vandalized Wikipedia. Actually no, I figured out what the
problem was. It was I didn't know how to use Wikipedia. Okay,
And one quick note to our listeners before we get
into the mystery. This story does acknowledge the existence of

(02:11):
sex and some per marital decisions that revolve around that.
So if the kids are in the room and you're
listening and you're not quite sure you want them to
to hear some of this, you might want to pause
this one and listen to it later on your own.
The story that we are going to tackle is going

(02:31):
to be the unsolved deaths of Dr Gilbert Bogel and
Mrs Margaret Chandler. And there are two people who died
for unknown reasons in Australia sometime in the early hours
of New Year's Day, well at five am and seven am, respectively.

(02:52):
But okay, well, well yeah, thanks for killing the mystery
all right. Before we begin, I do have to send
out a huge thank you to Elena, who sent this
story to us and then pointed us to a ton

(03:14):
of resources kind of made this one happen for us
to be quite yeah, it was again, thank you. Let's
begin with the story. On New Year's Day three, somewhere
around nine am, two teenage boys were walking along a

(03:37):
path that runs along the Lane Cove River in Sydney, Australia.
They came upon a man keeps laying off of the
main path, and from the accounts that I've seen, they
when they first saw him, they figured he was drunk. Yeah,

(03:57):
that's everything. That's the one that I've heard the most.
This This dude was just laying there. It's New Year's morning,
he's drunk. But it wasn't until they came back down
that path and saw him still there that they noticed
that his face had changed color and they realized that
he was probably dead and they ran for help. Yeah,

(04:19):
I heard that. They said. They walked past him, and
then a couple hours later they came back and he
literally had not moved at all and they thought, huh
this it's kind of weird though, I mean, in that
two hours, nobody else walked by him. I mean it's
New Year's morning. Joe hungover exact or asleep. I'm suspecting

(04:43):
that's what killed these two. Hangover. The hangover. I've had
some killer hangovers, but not that bad. The man was
thirty eight year old doctor Vogel, and he was laying
face down, half undressed. Someone had he wasn't wearing his pants.
Someone had taken his pants and laid them across his

(05:06):
legs and his backside, so that from a given distance
it looked like he was wearing pants. Yeah, and his
underwear wasn't there, right, This is a fun fact of that.
I discovered his underwear was not there, but a pair
of ladies underwear was very close by to him, like
Selt panties, very close by. Yes, yeah, so ladies panties.

(05:26):
No further explained, Yes, give me just a moment. The tease.
There was also, just so everybody knows, a square of
carpet laid on his back, which was later discovered to
have been something that was in his cart. When the
police arrived, as they will do when someone finds a

(05:49):
dead body. They searched the area and they found a
second body, which was twenty eight year old Margaret Chandler
forty ft away, and she had a pair of men's
briefs in between her legs. That's true, she did. She did.

(06:11):
She as Devin was kind of getting too, had some
strange clothes. She was also partially undressed, but she was
in a bit of a depression and had flattened beer
boxes laid over her, which is an unusual place to be,
especially when you're dead. But it's it's unclear to this

(06:33):
day who covered the bodies. Was it one person covered
the other, who did some other person? We don't know
that well. I think we might get into some of
that later on, but just to say, on the outset,
we don't know how they got covered up. There were
no obvious signs of damage to the body, and by
that I mean no obvious trauma. They hadn't been, you know,

(06:56):
sholing in pools of blood exactly. There was um some evidence,
what's the best way to say this, There was evidence
that they had been violently ill before they died. There
was vomit and feces both around the bodies and in
the area around them. So, yeah, I read that. It's interesting.

(07:20):
Actually I read that there was a small amount of
vomit found near Dr Bogel, like twelve ft away or no,
twelve inches I'm sorry, twelve inches, not twelve ft that's
really far away. That's projectile. Yeah, so that that's interesting
that they are also differing accounts of that. Yeah, and
there's there's some issues with this story because it's been

(07:41):
it's been rehashed a lot, and will talk about some
of that. But there was feces everywhere. Yeah, they were
obvious given and I mean typically when you die, people
usually let go. Yeah, but it was more than that.
They were actually running around and carpet in the area. Actually,
I don't think it was next to their bodies at all.
There was some down by the river bank and there

(08:01):
was some a bit of a trail, let's put it
that way. They marked where they had been. Regardless, it's
not a nice way to go. But this this led
the police immediately to suspect that in some way they

(08:22):
had been poisoned, but they had no idea how or
what with the official cause of death for both of
these individuals was listed as acute circulatory failure. But how
or why was never specified. These two particular people who

(08:46):
are on a river bank on New Year's Eve New
Year's Morning together various states of undress, various states of undress,
were married to different people. She was married to a
man by the name of Jeffrey Chandler. He his wife.
Dr Bogel's wife was named Vivian Bogel. And I hope

(09:07):
I'm saying, I believe it's Bogel. Is how you pronounced it.
We're going to say it the whole. I hope it's
not wrong, because otherwise we're gonna look silly. Yeah. But
but regardless, it's it's pretty obvious that they were there
for a midnight encounter of as another way to put it,

(09:28):
what's that look it up on the internet, Joe. Okay,
let's give a little bit of backstory again. This is
just kind of the beginning telling of it, and then
we'll go into some details. Both of these individuals Dr.
Bogel Miss Chandler had attended a New Year's Eve party
on the night of their deaths, which was hosted by

(09:48):
another couple by the name of Ken and Ruth Nash.
Dr Bogel attended the party on his own. His wife
stayed home to take care of their three chill written
Mrs Chandler attended the party with her husband, Jeffrey, though
he had left the party around eleven thirty that night.

(10:11):
One odd fact about the party, and I think this
is the nashest way of trying to mix things up
and make it interesting. They were super interesting people, those
they were. But you'll see this when you come across
this case, especially if you do Google images or image
searches in general, is that what they told their guess
was that they wanted them to bring a piece of

(10:33):
art that they had created themselves to the party to
display for everybody to talk about. Dr Bogel brought drawing,
which it's it's really kind of strange and honestly, it's weird.
Let's just call it weird. It's a disembodied hand in
one corner and a disembodied foot in the other corner,

(10:55):
with a woman's face that points in two directions. If
you ever seen some of those profile images where it
looks like it's a face looking at you and and
to the side, that's what it is. It's it's kind
of got a modernist feel to it, and it made
me think of the art that you'll see. There's a
Russian Russian artist by the name of Alexander roj Tinko.

(11:20):
Is it Rodchenko? I really feel bad for all of
the art classes I've taken. I suddenly can't remember how
to pronounce this guy's name. Regardless, it looks like work
from both of those. So it's it's it's unusual. I
don't know a better way to describe it. Well, you
can describe it by the fact that everybody said that
it was created while he was high on LSD. I mean,

(11:44):
that's true, right, people people have speculated that that's how
he made it, and the LSD is relevant to what
we're talking about, which is the party. Because this story
gets covered a lot by the media, the newspaper papers
specifically at the time, it was a huge source of headlines,

(12:07):
and they were not afraid to insert and exaggerate and
come up with theories and just proffer them to postulate
that they were the actual thing. One of the things
that the news said, or these papers said, I should say,
is that the party was some kind of LSD fueled orgy. Yeah, yeah,

(12:34):
it's it's a bit absurd and from everything that I've read,
and actually what was going on. Yeah, it was kind
of a lame party really from what I've heard. Yeah,
well yeah, next I'm telling to bring booze paintings. Well,
I I remember there was something about Mr Nash saying
that he didn't give anybody more than two drinks. Yeah,

(12:55):
he was dispensing quote unquote that's the term they used,
is he was dispensing the drinks and he would only
give people, according to at least one account that I read,
that he would only give people, uh two drinks maximum.
So a very sober affair. But well, let's get back
to our our case in point here, which is these
folks at some point in the nine Chandler not the Nashes,

(13:20):
thank you. Uh, they were observed outside in the backyard
together described in and you'll you'll see this in two
different ways, either in a close conversation or kissing. Not
really sure. Actually, uh you know they that's not the
first night they met. It's very true. They Dr Bogel

(13:44):
and Mrs Chandler had met at a holiday Christmas barbecue.
It's Australia. Remember it's Australia, so it's summer during Christmas,
so they were having a Christmas kind of Hawaiian barbecue,
another one of the co workers of Mr Chandler and
Dr Bogel. And in fact, it was reported by at
least one person who will talk about later, that the

(14:07):
couple Dr Bogel and Mrs Chandler had been seen canoodling
perhaps that night, even intimate conversation. Well, and I don't
I think it was actually accusation, was in fact that
they had been making out or maybe like had a
low romp in the bushes on that night, even the

(14:28):
first night that they met. So that's worth mentioning. Is
it is? It is back to the New Year's Eve party.
The witness accounts say that the pair left the party
together between two to three am, and the accounts very
a little bit on the time, which isn't surprising. It's

(14:48):
the middle of the night. Uh. It's important to point
out that Jeffrey Chandler, if you remember earlier I had
said he had left the party, he came back and
he because he had gone to a different party to
have drinks where you could get more than two. But
he did come back to the party and had a

(15:11):
conversation with his wife, and when he found out that
Margaret wanted to not get a ride home from him,
but from Dr Bogel. It wasn't really all that worried
about it. He didn't care. The account that I heard
was that while Mr Chandler was gone, Dr Bogel I
keep wanting her for them as their first in their

(15:32):
first names, they called Dr Bogel Gibby, right, and her
name was Margaret. So given GiB had offered to give
Margaret a ride home because she didn't really know where
her husband had gone off to. And apparently when Mr
Chandler Jeffrey came back, he said, oh, are you ready
to go, Margaret? And she made no move to go,

(15:54):
and she was sitting right next to gibb and so
Jeffrey looked at GiB and said, so will you take
Margaret home? And GiB just kind of looked at him
and squinted his eyes for a second and then said right.
And then Jeffrey laughed like that That was how that happened.
Was just so weird. And we're going to get into

(16:14):
some of the stuff about what, you know, the background
on these folks people. Yeah, but the point is he
left the party and he went about his way. He
wasn't concerned that was going to give Margaret right home. Yeah, yeah,
more than that. This case itself was the biggest case

(16:38):
to date for Sydney, and the police immediately went to
work on it. They were reviewing all the evidence. They
were trying to hunt down any bit of any lead,
any bit of information that might possibly tell them what
was going on. A lot of man hours were spent
on this case. Like we talked about before, it's we

(17:03):
the newspapers. They went crazy. They polluted this story badly.
I don't know if either of you did this. I
read some of the old newspapers. Can find them on online. Yeah,
I have a favorite website about this case and it
references at every point what the media was saying, which
is very helpful and very bad because they just misconstrue

(17:27):
a lot of things. I mean, it really hasn't changed either.
They're just about as bad today. And we've had this
conversation before. But but let's let's go ahead, and first off,
let's talk about our three main players in this story. Yeah, okay,
my turn. I'm going to talk about Dr bog Dr bogelh.

(17:54):
So he's a major player in the mystery, though it
doesn't actually say very much he was. His full name
was Gilbert Stanley Bogle. He was born in New Zealand January.
He studied physics in Britain under a Rhodes scholarship. He
met and married Actually I don't know if he met
her in nineteen fifty, but he married Vivian in nineteen fifty.
They had three children and also a fourth after his death,

(18:18):
and by accounts he was a good family man, except
for his philandering, which apparently he did a lot of. Yeah,
so I guess you can't really say give percent marks
on that one. But Frank, yeah, but freends said that
he was interesting, wickedly smart, uh fun um well, rounded

(18:39):
into a whole lot of different activities and it's kind
of an awesome guy. Yeah, they thought that. People thought
it was pretty cool. So he moved back to New
Zealand in nineteen fifty two with his family and got
a university job teaching and researching in physics, which was
his field. And then in nineteen fifty six he took
a job in Australia with the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial

(19:00):
Search Organization, which I'm going to call CIERO from now on,
the c s i r O, because we're going to
talk about that a number of times. Yeah, it's much
easier to do. Yeah. CICERO is Australia's National science agency
and so they actually cover a lot of different fields
of science. He got a three year appointment which began

(19:21):
September fifty six. He started working in the cryogenics group.
By by about a year later, he had been given
an indefinite appointment because apparently his his chief of his
division liked him so much and found him noteworthy. Was
a quote. He was noteworthy for his mental powers, his
breath of breadth of knowledge, has capacity for original ideas,
his driving enthusiasms, range of experimental techniques, and his outstanding

(19:45):
ability as a lecturer. Now, so this guy really liked Bogel, Yeah,
he did. His name was Briggs, and he encouraged Bogel
to resume his research on paramagnetic residence, which I'm not
really sure that that is, and I was too lazy
to look it up. It so I'm it's using radio
waves and magnets as weapons. Is that the mazer? Maybe? Well,

(20:08):
there there's talk about one point. I think maybe that's
how you generate the masers are like lasers but with microwaves. Yeah,
coherent The lasers, as you know, is coherent light, right
I do. Now, yeah, all a little folks, all a
little photons are moving in the same direction, whereas the
life from the light bulb up there in the ceiling
they're just like you know, stuck on scattering everywhere. The

(20:32):
lasers they have their coherent light and then they're all
move in the same direction. So yeah, it's I guess
the point of the whole thing is that Dr Bogel
was working on what could be considered or was encouraged
to work on what could be considered for warfare and
death rays and weird mad scientists stuff that's freaking cool

(20:54):
grand side right, you know. Actually, and I checked and
in an alternate time, and he actually didn't die, and
he invented the warp drive in ninety seven, and then yeah,
you're already wanted to get off. Yeah, Briggs, his chief

(21:16):
recommended him for accelerated advancement. He drew attention to the
fact that he'd done all this work on the recent
development of the maser, which is like a lazer, like
I said, uh, and his uh, his theoretic practical contribution
to this development of this and apparently was developed for
use in radio astronomy was apparently pretty large. Boo was
a smart guy. Actually, I gotta say it's too bad

(21:37):
he died, you know, because it was a crazy smart guy.
Oh yeah, it was a really smart guy. Um so
his chief in nineteen sixty two called him quote the
most brilliant member of the staff. For a while. He
must have been off the chart smart. Vogo was offered
a two year appointment in quantum electronics at Bell Laboratories
in the US UH and he really wanted to take

(21:58):
the job. Cicero granted will leave the absence to take
the job, and apparently he was. People said he was
very excited about going to work in America at Bell Labs.
In fact, that was one of the reasons that the
Nash has had thrown that party, if I remember correctly,
was that or the barbecue party? One of them was
part holiday party, part going away party for Yeah, you're right,

(22:19):
I can't remember. He was to leave within I think
the month. I think maybe even within a couple of weeks,
so it was not far it was not far away. Yeah,
but yeah, I just really kind of sad this guy
died because yeah, who knows what he would have accomplished. Yeah,
so you want to talk about miss Chandler Margaret for
a minute. Yeah, let's talking about Wait a minute, got

(22:39):
to talk about his hobbies and his turn on. No,
this isn't a dating site, Mrs Chandler, Margaret Chandler. She
was twenty years old at the time of her death,
and there's not a whole lot out there on Mrs Chandler.
I'll be honest with you. I don't get the impression
that she was a particularly interesting human being. I just

(23:00):
don't have that impression. I think guys were interested in her. Yeah,
I think she was kind of She didn't have a
whole lot of external pursuits. But I think that you
also need to keep in mind is that she had
two small kids at the time. Yeah, she did. She
She and Mr Chandler had two small children. They were

(23:21):
aged two and eighteen months, and they had left them
with them with her with her mother and father in
law that night. She and her husband shared a love
of vintage cars and docks and dogs. Like how boring.
Come on. The weird thing is okay, I don't mean
interrupt you here, but the weird thing about that is

(23:43):
she liked vintage cars and docks. Sin's. Maybe that's because
her husband really liked both of those things, and so
she went along with it. So there's all these pictures
of her in vintage cars because he's like, honey, get
in there, let me take your picture, like you dog
take your picture. Yeah, it seemed that she was the
kind of person that didn't have a whole lot of

(24:03):
going on for herself. She seemed to have been at
least moderately intelligent. I think she probably was likely quite intelligent.
She just kind of seemed boring, like she just kind
of adopted everybody else's stuff. She seemed to be pretty reserved. Yeah.
They talked about how Mr Chandler was kind of tall

(24:24):
and outgoing, and he had this huge red beard and
stood out in a room, and she, by contrast, was
this kind of meek creature just at his side. It
seemed that they were on the same kind of page
about the way that their marriage should go. And that
is to say that monogamy seemed to not have been
for either of them. I don't know that she was

(24:47):
as okay with that as her husband, but she ended
up going along with She did have more than just
give as a lover. She had had lovers previous to that,
so I don't know what that necessarily means, but it
does implicate to me that she was at least kind
of okay with it, given it a shot. And apparently
Jeffrey had been pretty absent from his wife's life for

(25:10):
most of nineteen sixty two. He chose to spend his
time kind of more with friends instead of his wife
and two young sons. Also had a girlfriend named Pam.
Never have a girlfriend name when you're married. That just
never goes well. Yeah, Apparently after that holiday barbecue that
we were talking about earlier, Margaret said to her husband

(25:32):
that she'd like to sleep with Dr Bogel, and Jeffrey
later recounted she had quote put it in the same
sort of way that one might describe a Rolls Royce
car has like a fleeting interest of having sex with
this man. Essentially, Yeah, I think that was that was
sort of the The sense that I got was that
Mr Chandler said, well, if you'd like to sleep with Gibb,

(25:54):
then you should. I'm for it, and that, you know,
you get the failure that Dr Handler had fallen out
of love with his wife. Mr Chandler, he was not
a doctor. Okay, was a doctor. Chandler was not. I
do have the sense he was kind of an interesting
guy too. I don't know necessarily what attracted him to
Mrs Chandler. I don't know if it was just that

(26:15):
it was convenient. Maybe he knocked her up and they
got married. I don't know. I can't remember what the
circumstances were. It was just hell, let's let's talk about Jeffrey. Sure, yeah, oh,
just had the fun well by note, you know how
everybody knows like twenty Jessica's. Uh, there were five Margaret's

(26:37):
at the New Year's party that they attended at the
at Kennon Ruth Nash's house. There were five different Margarets.
And I bet there are only like seven people there
because they only served two drinks. Yeah, yeah, they were
like twenty people there, Margaret. Yeah, Well, let's uh, let's
talk about Jeffrey Chandler. Jeffrey Chandler also worked at the

(26:59):
C S I R O or Cicero is Joe is
putting it, which I'm going to keep using. But he
worked there as a research scientist, and he actually did
work in the same building as Dr Bogel. The two
were they were work compatriots. They had worked together, not

(27:20):
only just seen each other in the building before, but
evidently they had worked together on at least one experiment.
I believe it's only one experiment, but never really hung
out in the same social circles, because jeff he Jeffrey,
he hung out in a very specific sect. He did.
He did. But let's let's keep going here. Chandler, Jeffrey

(27:44):
Chandler was of course, as we said earlier, and immediate suspect,
and of course the press and the police went after
him really hard. And actually, in cases like this, let's
see had probably the husband is always is the first
one that's going to get attacked. I mean, this is
standard protocol. I'm not knocking anyone for this, well, I'm not.

(28:06):
I would dr press people that aside. They went after
his lifestyles, his beliefs, and in the end, his desire
to avoid the press didn't help him out at all.
These are some of the things that don't help him.

(28:27):
Jeffrey was a member of the Communist Party, would got
him at a little bit of bad press. He also,
as it turned out, had been working for the A.
S I O, which is the Australian Security Intelligence Organization.
I never got a clear bead on this, but from

(28:49):
what I understand, what he was doing is the s
i OH was trying to get him to provide information
on the commun in his party. One of the things
he did, he's trying to host meetings at places and
try to bug the place for them. He bungled this badly.
So you try to do this was Is it possible

(29:11):
that Mr Chandler was not actually a sincere Communist and
then he just basically infiltered the infiltrated the organization. I
don't believe. So. I think that he agreed with things
that were in the party from what I understand, But
there's a bad thing about that. And the problem is
is that he went ahead and signed up with the
Communist Party. At that time, it was a bad thing.

(29:36):
And to be a government employee, you could not be
affiliated with with that party at counties if you're potentially
I'm not I'm not sure. I'm sure. At least some
of Cicero's projects were classified. Of course, yeah, and so yeah,
definitely there's a good reason for that, Yes there is,
But he was he while he might have been a member,

(29:58):
he wasn't a you know, book thumping card carrying scream
at the masses member. He just kind of liked their ideals,
I think. But the problem was is that the a
s I oh, they from what I've read, came at
him and said, listen, you worked for us, or we're
breaking the news and you're losing your job. And by

(30:21):
the way, once you get blackballed from this job, you're
never working in this country again. So of course he
went along with him. Good idea. Yeah. Oh, and I
briefly mentioned there in the list of things that people
went kind of crazy about for him, was one of
him was his lifestyle. Yeah, because it was kind of
a swinger. He totally was a swinger. He he believed

(30:43):
in sleeping with multiple women, and he did so, as
we've already talked about while he was married to Mrs Chandler. Yeah,
that's that fine line of swinging versus cheating. Right, it's
swinging if you're like, hey, babe, you should do this too, right,
and cheating line nobody knows as you you twist the

(31:04):
mustache and have the wink. She knew. He made no
bones about it. He was very open with her. And
I get the impression that for about the first year
two of their relationship, I think he was faithful and
then he began to stray again, but didn't make any
bones about it, just said, Hey, I'm interested in this
woman and I'm going to go sleep with her. And

(31:26):
she Yeah, she was a little passive. Yea, she was
a little passive. Then. I've always I've noticed that I've
known a few people that were in open relationships, and
I've always noticed that one partner was always much more
okay with it than the other. Yes, And in fairness,
that doesn't always happen always. There's that's certainly a level
of consent that some people have, but often often it

(31:47):
is that way. But like I said, he kept it
no secret. But the problem was is that that lifestyle
was highly frowned. Yeah, we're talking in the nineteen sixties. Yes,
so this I don't think people are into the swinger
thing these days. Well, I think the seventies and the

(32:08):
eighties were kind of the high point for swingers. But
late fifties, early sixties there's kind of the bohemian scene
going on, which Jeffrey Chandler was involved with. So there
was some uprising of it then, But as a general
societal norm. Yeah, let's talk about it. We can a
little bit to give a frame of reference here, Ruth

(32:32):
Nash was outraged the night of their party because neither
of the Chandlers had come by to say goodbye and
thank you. She was our She talked about that even
after she knew that there was a little bit impolite
that that um that Margaret was dead. You know, she knew.
She was outraged, and the fact that Jeffrey had shown

(32:54):
up in like a Hawaiian shirt. He had shown up
in casual clothes and he was supposed to be wearing
a suit, and she was outraged at too. And so's
that sort of society at least surrounding them a little
bit for the most part, to give it a little
bit of a frame of reference. I guess, Oh, no,
wonder we left the party. Yeah, no, this party was

(33:14):
not his speed at all. We talked about a little
bit earlier that he left. What he did is he
went to another party where the Nashes were too stuffy.
He went to another party where he met up with
Pam Logan, who was the woman that he had been

(33:35):
having a relationship with. I believe they also worked together
I'm not positive that they were co workers, but I
do know that they were lovers. They had left the
party that they were at together, gone back to her flat.
Then when they were done doing what When they were done,

(34:00):
he left and he went back to the Nash's party
to find his wife. He was gone from that party
for a good two to three hours when he finally
came back. And we had said this earlier. Is that
she said, no, I I want to I want to
leave with Dr Bogel. He wasn't worried, and he had been,

(34:23):
from his own accounts, encouraging her for quite some time
to take a lover. And of course Bogel wasn't the
first one, but he does there there are many accounts
from him, And just so people don't get the wrong
idea about Jeffrey Chandler, it's not as if he just
said oh okay and beat feet and left. He went outside.

(34:45):
He wasn't sure if she was really serious. He went out,
he got in the car, He sat there for the
amount of time that it took him to smoke the
half a cigarette he evidently had sitting in the ash
tray before he left. And he's actually said a number
of times said he regrets not getting out of the
car and walking back into the house and say no,

(35:08):
you should come home with me. Yeah. He also has
said that he thought she wasn't serious. He thought at
any minute she would actually decide, Oh no, just kidding,
I do want to go home with you, And so
that's why he hung around so long. From that point,
his actions for the night are pretty well documented. He
left the party, he went back to Pam's house, He

(35:29):
got Pam, got her in the car, they went to
his parents house to collect his children. Talk about awkward
showing up at three or four in the morning with
your girlfriend while your wife is somewhere else to pick
up your children. That they didn't seem to mind. I
don't know that that's true. But I also think that

(35:50):
he left her in the car. She wasn't happy about
the whole thing either. To be roused it out at three,
four four in the morning to take a row with
this guy, I thought it was more like five. I
thought they were. They went and hung out at Pam's
house for a little while. Then they went to go
pick up the kids. And I don't recollect the exact time.
Like an early morning pick up, it may very well

(36:13):
have been. But he went and got his kids, brought her,
dropped her off at her house. No, did they go
back to They all went back to kids and all
again weird. So he obviously went and got his kids.
So it's it's hard to point a finger at what
he was doing because his his actions and and his

(36:34):
trail seemed to be pretty easy to follow. Well, if
you believe his girlfriend, Yeah, that very good point. His
his his eyewitness, and this is also his girlfriend, so
she has a bit of a reason to protect him.
As we said before, Jeffrey Chandler prime suspect. The cops

(36:54):
bring a case against him, the attorneys bring a case
against him. It's a huge in quest. In the end,
they don't have enough evidence and the case goes nowhere
and he is never convicted of a crime. He's also
said that he actually wishes that they had just tried him,

(37:14):
that he had gone to trial, and that he had
been proven innocent, because he felt that being left kind
of out in the dry, he was never really exonerated.
The media continued to say it was him. The whole
thing was a bit of a circus because there were
witnesses called that were stopped in the midst of their

(37:34):
testimony so that they could protect The judge would say, no,
we would like to protect the decency of this person.
Do not answer that question. When had got into graphic,
gratuitous sexual information, they would stop him. So there were
there were people who some of these people will talk
about later, who were going to be on the stand

(37:58):
and the judge dismissed for those kind of reasons. So
a lot of stuff didn't didn't just get brought out
into the open, And you're right, it kind of hosed
him in the end. Yeah, but he got a he
got a book out of the deal, right, he did.
He did write, Yeah, he did. I would imagine that.
It's pretty hard. It's called so you think I did it?

(38:19):
I'm not. That's not a lie, So I think I
did it. Every time I think about that title, it
just kind of makes me gugle because it's kind of
a silly title. That's a passive aggression. Oh so you
think I did it? Yeah, so screw you. Let's get
into theories. Now that we've kind of given the basic

(38:40):
about the case and the people, let's dive into some details. Okay, well, okay,
we're talking about theories. So I'm going to lead off
of one of my favorites was espionage cloak and dagger stuff.
But it really has seemed that when everybody's turned up
dead for known reasons, that the allegations of CIA or

(39:02):
KHB involvement is usually not far behind as as opposed
to bodies showing up alive. Got it, Yeah, it's it's
when they're dead for unknown reasons. Yeah, there was one story,
And I don't know the origins of any of these stories.
They have been circulated so long, it's been so many
decades that it's hard to say what the origins are.

(39:23):
But the one that got a little traction said that
Bogil have been recommended by whom I don't know as
an agent for for a s i OH, which we
mentioned before. It's the Australian Security and Intelligence Office, so
you know, their equivalent of the CIA. So he was
recommended during the nineteen fifties. But whether he was actually recruited,
I don't know, and I would suspect he was not

(39:46):
recruited by s i OH because what was he doing
working in a lab for a s i OH. I
suppose he could have been spying on some of his colleagues.
But other than that, what was what possible value could
he be to a s I Oh, I don't know. Yeah,
it's hard to say. I know he was we talked
a little bit that he was going to be heading
to the States for a post in the States. But again,

(40:09):
why would this, you know, why would they recruit him
and then bring him to the States. It's it doesn't
make a lot of sense. Yeah, yeah, and that really
one and and this was remember in the nineteen fifties.
Was supposedly he had been maybe possibly recruited long before
he knew it was going to go to the States.
Of course he could have been recruited by the KGB
and some some allegations of that, of course, of course, yeah,

(40:33):
Jeffrey Chandler, And of course he was probably willing the
point to figure at anybody other than himself. So he
suggested that Dr Bogol and Mrs Chandler were murdered by
the CIA, but with Chandler's being an unfortunate byproduct, Yeah,
she was collateral damage. Yeah, but Boogel that apparently supported
a recommendation by a doctor Clifford Dalton, who was a

(40:55):
member of the Australian Energy Commission, and the recommendation was
that a fast read a reactor that Dalton developed should
not be sold to the US and the technology should
not be shared with the US. That's nuclear technology. Yeah,
fast breeding reactors, fast breeder reactors. Yeah, yeah, just he
always says stuff like that, right where he's like, yeah,

(41:15):
you obviously know everything about that, so you must too,
just no idea, Okay, yeah, I feel better. Yeah. Breeder
reactors are one of those one of those dilios, you know,
most most reactors create just waste, whereas these things are
built to actually create things like plutonium. Yeah, that's one
of those things that we're not supposed to have. Yeah. Yeah.

(41:40):
So it was believed, according to Chandler, that the killing
was linked to his recommendation, but apparently it was a
it was a revenge kind of thing, you know, they
were they were angry and so they killed him. But
of course that leaves the question was Dr Dalton who
actually made the original recommendation. Was he killed too? I
don't believe so. I don't think it was. And he
was so the original center in this case, So that's

(42:02):
kind of weak. Tea Frankly another one who said he wasn't.
He was involved, of course in research on mazers, which
and some people claim that his research was actually top
secret research. I don't. I've never really confirmed that. And
he was due, of course to leave sister in a
few weeks ago work in the USA Bell Labs, And
of course Bell Labs does have some highly secret defense contracts.

(42:24):
Whether Bogel was going to be actually, you know, in
on knows, I don't know. But he had been He
had been checked by the FBI before he got the
Bell job. He had to be cleared by them, and
apparently they didn't have a problem with him. Another report
suggests that he was bumped off by the KGB to
stop his research. But again, why aren't scientists dropping white flies?

(42:45):
Because I mean, even though Bogel was a very smart guy,
and let's face it, you know, there were there were
other smart scientists as a group tend to be pretty intelligence. Yeah. Um.
And another claim was that the CIA killed him because
he was a cobl Asians who was selling secrets to
the Soviets. So but yeah, and and again okay, so

(43:07):
it was a double agent, so he was working for
se O and the KGB. I don't know. And again,
as always in this killing also Chandler was just collateral damage.
She seems to be kind of collateral damage. And a
lot of these yeah, and of course, yeah, this is
a cold war, there's lots of paranoida and conspiracy. Conspiracy
theories were kind of rampant. Had another suggestion that somebody

(43:29):
made god knows who, originally he was handing over his
super secret agent role to Margaret Chandler. And the reason
they went to the river it was to retrieve a
hidden object at a quote drop that was under the
water which could only be reached at low tide. That's dumb,
it's dumb. Yeah, yeah, it doesn't. She does no point

(43:49):
for her to be secret. She doesn't strike It doesn't
strike me a secret agent of material. But anyway, in
this theory that while they are busy retrieving this object
whatever was, enemy agents appeared, stripped the naked, killed them
by holding a poisonous substances over their faces, and then
dropped their bodies, cover them up a little bit, and
then made their get away. What's wait, wait, now he

(44:12):
had that square of carpet, So what's the carpet got
to do with this? The carpet was just to you know,
get down the river's edge, and I presumably they had
to kneel down to reach down unto the water to
get to this hidden object and this hidden drop. The
carpet was just like to kneel on to walk on them.
Although I guess it's it's possible that they were naked
from the waist down because they were trying to protect

(44:34):
their clothes while they were kneeling in muddy, gross area. Yeah,
the river was pretty pretty disgusting and polluted, so that's
possible anyways, Sorry continuing, Yeah, no, I mean, there's there's
validity to that, but I'm not going to buy into him.
See how people could go for that. People like this

(44:54):
kind of stuff. That's why it's popular. That doesn't matter
if it's true or not. Why do you think so
many spy books are written? Really? Yeah, not that many
good ones, unfortunately. Uh, let's see what else will we
have here? There was in the nineteen eighties, journalists used
the Freedom of Information Act in the US to get
the classified documents which showed that j Edgar Hoover you

(45:15):
guys probably know that name, right, India had discussed the
case with the New South Wales police, and I'm not sure.
I mean that's I seem to recall hearing something about
there was a little bit of cooperation because the FBI,
of course has labs that can do we're very space
getting analysis. So there's nothing necessarily sinister about cooperation between

(45:36):
the New South Wales police and the FBI. Yeah. I
don't see anything hinky there. Uh. Some people have said
the FBI may have conducted its own investigation in the murders,
which I don't have any evidence for, and others have
said that the US and Australian governments have been unusually
secret about this case, and because because because they have

(46:00):
no information about exactly, they had nothing to say about it.
I think, yeah, So no, there's you know, I don't
think any of these theories, any these espionage FPI all
that sum I don't think any of them really hold
any water at all. I'm on the same page. So
does anybody else have any any theories I want to share?

(46:21):
You know? We do. We have another one, which is
a little bit cookie, which is that it was a
sex drug or some kind of fun drug whatever, a
fun drug that they took themselves, that they took themselves
self administered that they overdosed on. Yeahs, yeah, I don't

(46:44):
like if if it's going to make it more fun
than have taking five times as much. Yeah, I guess
that's not just Disclaimered. No, no, don't don't do that.
It doesn't work. As we've talked about earlier, that the
police had initially decided and come to the conclusion that

(47:10):
they had been poisoned or they had potentially overdosed on
a drug. Not an unreasonable no no, and especially when
there's no outward signs of trauma. And this this isn't
a logical conclusion. This theory that the sex drug theory
centers around the idea that they decided this the pair

(47:33):
Dr Bogel and Mr Chandler Gibbon Margaret decided, Hey, let's
take something to heighten the experience, to increase the fun,
and just make this sexual experience out of this world.
I know, I know. The problem is, of course that

(47:53):
there has been there not has been. There was extensive
testing done the tissues taken from the bodies, and no
substances were ever found, and I mean extensive. Every bit
of usable tissue sample that was available was tested. I

(48:18):
think the Corriner eventually ran out of tissue samples. Yeah,
he did a lot of testing. He did a lot
of testing it. I don't remember. Maybe one of you
can help me out here. I think it's the liver
and maybe another organ that they used. They did the liver.
I think they did some muscle tissue. I think they
did you know, kind of the standard stuff that filters

(48:40):
or holes onto some of that stuff. Yeah, but if
you've got two people, that's a lot of samples. And
I wonder how much they weighed when they were buried.
Now I don't know, but they took a lot of
samples and in the end they were all used up.

(49:01):
There's been a lot, and I mean a lot of
speculation that the couple took LSD. The thing that you
need to understand is that at this time LSD wasn't
a popular drug in Australia and there wasn't a good

(49:22):
known way to test for it. They didn't have a oh,
well would run this test to see if you've been
on LSD. That wasn't developed at that time. And it's
also important to point out from the research that I've done,
it's nearly impossible to overdose on LSD. Most folks that

(49:45):
dive from taking the drug is not the drug itself,
but there's subsequent actions thereafter. Although it's it's probably worth
mentioning that with all of these allegations of LSD, of
the allegations that the LSD that they had taken had
been made by Dr Bogel in their lab so it

(50:06):
was impure, or or that it messed up someone, it
may not have been pure lg D. Well, yeah, I
mean actually typically LSD is usually cut with something, usually
usually speed, to enhance the who listen to Jenny properties
of it, because LSD is actually not a terribly who
llustinogenic drug. Yeah, yeah, I don't bet again, I I
you know, I don't see well, yeah, regardless, I mean

(50:29):
it's it's people die typically because of what they're doing,
because whether they're on a good trip or a bad trip,
they put themselves into a situation that is dangerous and
they pay the price for that. So the the whole
LSD sex drug fun time overdose, it's it's got some

(50:51):
big holes in it. Yeah, O kind of I don't
see anything to hear about marijuana overdose? Is it my turn? Cool?
My theory, My first theory is the jealous lover theory,
which makes sense a little bit. There's been a lot
of songs about jealous lovers, so I can see how

(51:12):
that would be. There are three kind of main possibilities here.
I'm gonna start with the dumbest one first. They're so
One of the things we glossed over was this eyewitness
who was actually fairly important to the case, named Mr Shlis. So,
how you would say that looks like jealous jealous Chalice,

(51:40):
Chalice in the Palace Las anyway, however you say his name,
Mr Halis actually saw he I'm going to talk about
him in a more in a minute, but just trust
me on this one. He's an eyewitness and he ad
about the time that they placed the death of Dr

(52:03):
Bogel and Mrs Chandler Gibbon. Margaret saw a yellow quote
yellow blondie haired man, that's what it said, fleeing across
the street. This path that he was driving on pretty
dang close to where they ended up finding Margaret's body.

(52:24):
I'm sure it wasn't just a jogger he was. The
impression that I have is that it's just kind of
a little there's the road and then there's a strip
and then it's the river. So unless he like can
run on top of water, because he darted across the
road too towards the river, it's totally possible he was
a transient any of those things. Regardless, the speculation is that,

(52:51):
oh maybe that was Margaret's not GiB lover and he
was jealous and somehow knew where they were and somehow killed.
It's dumb. Yeah, you're looking at me like it's done,
because it's dumb. I'm just I'm just saying things that
I've seen an app on the Yellow Blonde here. No,
he did not know. Next up is Margaret Fowler. She

(53:16):
was one of gibbs lovers. They had been seeing each
other for a while. Actually, I think it was like
more than three years something like that. Yeah. He she
she worked at Cicero with Dr Bogel and he tried
to break it off a couple of times, and she
said she would say things like I'll die if you do.

(53:37):
She also told the police during the investigation that that
she was going to move to America with Dr Bogel
with Jip Gibb and they were going to get a
flat together, that that was what was happening. She was
going to go to New York with him when he
left for America. No, I thought he was going to
take his family with him. No, well that's not what
she said. That's not what Mrs Margaret Fowler said. Just

(53:59):
say she was thinking about all we've all seen those
stories of the mistress. He said this, and he loves this,
and he just he can't quite leave them yet. But
we're making plans like that. That's what that sounds like
to me. There are two main things here. The theory
goes that Mrs Fowler Margaret Flower, as I said, there's

(54:21):
lots of Margarets in this story. She wasn't even at
the New Year's party. She's not part of the five
people that NI were named Margaret at the New Year's party.
She wasn't even invited to that. The theory is that
she somehow knew where they were going to be and
maybe follow them from the party, or maybe that was
Gibbs lovers Lane place of choice and somehow, yeah, where

(54:43):
she overpowered both of them and murdered them somehow. It's
not great. The only thing that does add a little
credence to this theory is a man was interviewed later
named Mr. Carlson Carlton. Mr Carlton, sorry, and he said
the he saw Margaret Fowler a couple of days after
the murder, before it was huge news, before it had

(55:06):
really broken. Yeah, and she said, oh, they're dead and
Mr Carlton said who, And she said these two people,
Margaret and Gibb. And then she kept repeating, uh, they
were going to cop out and it's all going to
come out, and was talking about chemical warfare and things
like that. She's kind of crazy. She seems super crazy.

(55:28):
Anything she did seem unstable, but it is worth mentioning.
I think that she did kind of implicate herself to
at least one witness, saying they were gonna, you know there,
it's all gonna come out, it's all going to come out,
and that Margaret and Gibb were somehow working together on
chemical warfare and they were going to release it and
that's why they were murdered. I'm going to say right now,

(55:50):
I I can see that being as simple as it's
all going to come out. Our relationship on the download,
relationship is gonna come out. But then within a couple
of weeks she had no problem talking about the relationship,
no problem she's also one of the witnesses if I
remember correctly, that never actually testified at the end quest

(56:14):
and because of the morality reason, and she was married
also right, yes, but she was also the one who
said that she saw Gibb and Margaret getting busy in
the bushes at the Christmas party. She was barbecue. Yeah,
the barbecue, Okay, worth mentioning. Why because so much of

(56:38):
a thing. I have no idea. Another player that we
haven't really discussed yet is Ken Nash, the host of
the party, the New Year's party. As we said, he
was the one dispensing drinks the whole night, and as
it turns out, he was mildly obsessed with this case
and killed himself thirteen years give or take a day

(56:59):
to the day a actor, Margaret and Gibb had been
found dead. But although there's another significant anniverse, also worth
mentioning is that, you know, honor about that day two
years prior, his wife Ruth had died of cancer, So
take that with a grain of salt. But since he
was the one dispensing drinks, he could have easily slipped

(57:19):
the pair something. It's it's thought that, uh, you know,
he could have done that and it may have been
a prank, but also maybe he was in love with
Margaret too, who knows her? So we killed her and Gibb. Uh,
well Gibble was Gibb was known to his friends is
a bit of a prankster. So I can see that.

(57:41):
I can see where this This has some traction. Is well,
GiB played a prank on him at work, and he thought, well,
I'll get him, and oh he's hanging out with Margaret. Well,
oh well she's there too. I'll put it in both
thereuse that explains a lot. Actually, he slipped laxatives into
both their drinks because all the feces. But it wouldn't
kill them that fast, but they were they were tainted. Okay, Yeah,

(58:05):
I guess from worth noting is that it does seem
like Ken Nash was kind of a boring dude. So
I don't know why he would suddenly think I I'll
prank him, that'll be fun. He seemed really boring. He
would only want to give people to drinks. He's a square,
was a square. Why would he be suddenly doing that
that that doesn't fit with his personality profile. Well, he

(58:29):
might consider doing something something like that, but slipping deadly
poison in their drinks. That's not really a prank. Yeah,
I agree, I think that that's he misjudged the dosage
wildly though. Oh I'm gonna make him a little little
I'm gonna I'm just gonna screw with him a little bit. Oops.

(58:50):
I dumped the whole vial in. Oh well, I'll mix
it between the two drinks. I don't delude it. This
is where this that that runs well, and this actually
flows into my next theory, which is poisoning of some kind. Right,
we have been talking about poison. Let's keep talking about poison.
And like I said, despite Ken's insistence that he'd quote

(59:13):
dispensed no more than two drinks per guessed, there are
a lot of reports that both Margaret and Gibb looked
pretty drunk by the end of the night. They had
glassy eyes, they were hunched over. Their reports were drunk,
But what people are describing is they were looking very ill,
very pale, kind of sweaty, clammy, glassy eyed, hunched over.

(59:36):
It's two in the morning. Yeah, even if you're not drunk,
you're tired. At two in the morning, you're gonna not
look your best that now, Just so Also, you got
to remember too that just because he was only serving
up two drinks didn't mean people had flasks with them
and stuff like. Well, and I but I do think

(59:58):
it's probably worth mentioning that it seems people noticed this
as more of an a cute thing. It wasn't like
a gradual progression of them kind of getting sleepy and
hunching over and getting glassy eyed and get slowly getting drunk.
It was that they were talking to them, and then
five minutes later they looked pretty ill. I know again,
I don't mean to interrupt. I'm just trying to flesh

(01:00:20):
this out and see what else could come of it
if they've decided we're gonna have this trist But we're
in this awkward situation in the social environment where GiB
doesn't want everybody to know that he's out playing in
the field, and Margaret's a little shy about that. I

(01:00:40):
can see that being a bit of nerves. Do you
know where I'm heading with this? Where I'm I'm gonna
do this thing, but I'm kind of nervous because everybody's
around and I don't I don't know how to how
don't like get out of here and not make it obvious.
Well they weren't. They weren't reading very secretive of it.
They had told the nash Is that Gibb was taking

(01:01:02):
marg at home, but that could have been under the
illusion of, hey, guess what, drunk Jeffrey's not here. Could
but that's the same. So they leave together, So he's
being a good guy in giving her at home. The
nerves of it, I don't know, people feel really weird
and awkward about that. I mean, think about your friends
when they meet somebody and they're they're gonna they're gonna

(01:01:25):
go off together for the first time to to hook
up or whatever the case. Maybe, And I've seen friends
who are a little weird about the whole thing, and
you watch it's like, what is going on? You don't
look right? Are you okay? Are you in high school?
I have seen it in high school. I have seen
it in college. I have seen it in my thirties.

(01:01:45):
I have seen people do this. And these people she
was late twenties, he's his late thirties. People still act
like that, especially in a kind of a repressed arab
Is nineteen fifties, early sixties. It's you know, I can
see that going in some societal norms and causing some
butterflies in the stomach. Okay, it's just my take. Yeah,

(01:02:11):
disputed as much as you want, or we can continue.
And again, people have a way of modifying and reinterpreting
their own memories. Memory is not an accurate thing, that's true.
So can we just can let's just continue here. Maybe
they drank some manti freeze. I didn't, but let's continue
on with just keep going. So, like I said, it's

(01:02:31):
possible they were poisoned before we went on this weird
side quest and my quest, ken Ken would have pretty
much been the only one to have been able to
poison them. It's this wasn't the kind of party where
you're just leaving your drink everywhere. People pretty much had
their drinks in hand, and there was food at the party,

(01:02:53):
but it was all the face style. So for them
to have been the only ones to have gotten sick,
there's really no way that it could have been the food.
And it couldn't have been food poisoning because of that
same thing. We're talking malicious poisoning here, right, not accidental,
Not oh we accidentally took too many drugs. We took it.
We're talking about somebody slipping them something at some point. Interestingly,

(01:03:17):
aside from actual consumption drink or eating poison, there have
been some suggestions about aerosol poisons. What yeah, the gas
poisons that would be in an aerosol form. One suggestion
is that it could have been a can that was
placed under the pedals of gibbs car that when he accelerated,

(01:03:38):
it would have dispensed it. This is almost going in
tandem with Joe. Yeah, it's a very cloak and dagger
way to go about it. Okay, So that that was suggested.
It was also suggested that somebody could have come and
sprayed them in the face with the aerosol of some
kind at some point, at some point point there. Gosh,

(01:04:02):
there's some very interesting aerosol suggestions. And and in fairness,
when gibbs car was found, his keys were tucked behind
his um advisor. Yeah sunvisor, so was making that motion
of moving the sununum. So it's possible that if somebody

(01:04:22):
had placed an aerosol can under a pedal, that it's
not such a problem that it was not there when
the police searched the car, because it could have been removed. Yeah,
but just imagine that you get in the car, he's
stepping the gas and it's sound and split unker that
made funny noises. His car was Yeah. And as far

(01:04:47):
as getting sprayed in the face by somebody, well I
know what would have happened. Then they would have they
would have their last dime. I was crawled over to
the muck and scrawled the name of their their murderer
in the muck. That's what always happens. Another suggestion is
that it could have been a small capsule placed under
the pedals, so it would have burst. The capsule that
would have been slowly filled the car with noxious fumes

(01:05:11):
and it would have poisoned them that way. Or even better,
it could have been dry ice placed in the back
of his car. And I think I like this theory
because I think acute illness does fit with a lot
of the facts of the story, discounting even that they
looked maybe ill when they left. Um. So here's my

(01:05:35):
initial problem with all of these gases released in the car.
It's New Year's Day in Australia, which means it's high summer.
The windows are not going to be rolled up in
the heat or on. The windows are probably going to
be down because it's warm. But it's still like four

(01:05:56):
or five in the morning, so it's probably it was
probably as cool. I just understanding it was kind of
cool out there. That was my understanding to Okay, I'm
just thinking of like, well, it's high summer. I will
you know, even if I have to get my car
at six am, I I end up cracking the window
because it's warm in the car because it's been shut
up for a couple of hours while it's still hot.
Because if he got at the part, he got to

(01:06:17):
the party went nine o'clock, but he's still going to
be stuffy. Yeah, but if the windows were only cracked,
not all the way down, it could still if it
were coats into enough talks in that's true. I'll give
you that soles as I was talking about earlier. So
he in the palace. You guys are the worst. He

(01:06:40):
happened to be parked kind of where they found gibbs
car when Gibb and Margaret pulled up, so he's actually
an eyewitnessed to some of their last moments. It was
likely around four I would say probably around four am,
maybe closer to five. He had just parked his car.

(01:07:02):
He was going to go for a walk, early morning
walk because I guess people are crazy like that sometimes.
And he said that a car pulled alongside it, alongside
him or up close to him. It was Gibbs car,
and that there was a woman in it who he
couldn't see. He said that he had the impression that
the driver was about to speak to him but didn't,

(01:07:23):
and he also said that the driver looked pale, but
he thought maybe he was just drunk, which is fair. Yeah. Yeah,
So Silis went out for the walk and returned to
his car about an hour later, and he noticed that
actually the car had been moved reparked, which is a
bit odd and fair car Gibbs car, Yeah, had been reparked.
But Silas had only one hand, so he couldn't Yeah,

(01:07:48):
so he couldn't turn his car around, so he did
this little loop which is the path that the boys
were walking, and that's when he saw the guy dart across.
It wasn't the same path, but it was that it
was the car track, not the footpath, because the footpath
crosses the road and the road goes across the bridge. Yeah, sorry,

(01:08:09):
that's no, it's it's a golf course path. Yeah, but
it's it's not for driving your car down. But he
did drive his car down it. Oh he did, yes,
because he couldn't get turned around. He was parked on
it and he couldn't get turned around, so he took
the Okay, I totally missing truth that I thought he
went made a loop through a different route. There's a
map that describes it pretty well, and I remember looking

(01:08:32):
at it. I, just as I always do, mixed up
a map. Fair totally fair anyway, that's that's when he
saw the aforementioned blondie haired band, yellow blondie haired man.
There certainly some oddities here. Gibb was a scientist, and
many people believed, as we said, he could have been
target for assassination. Aerosol poisoning would have been a fairly

(01:08:53):
clean way to assassinate somebody. It seems the onset of
whatever happened was pretty acute. Vomit and poop everywhere. You know,
gibbs body, the stripping down of their clothes. I also
have some problems with the lover's lane theory in general,
that they would go out into the forest to have
their liaison. Why not just park your car in a

(01:09:15):
secluded area in the Yeah, that evidently is one of
the reasons that GiB had that piece of carpet. Yeah,
is carpet. It's she could put the carpet down on
the ground and then sit on the carpet and not
get dirty from touching the carpet, right, but she wouldn't

(01:09:39):
get muddy. How's that, Joe, Yeah, that sounds good. They
did pick kind of a scuggy spot that they did. Yeah,
So I don't know, I have problems with that, just
in general. The whole Lover's Lane thing, it looks it does,
truly to me, look like two people who got really
sick and started running to have their sickness wherever. Additionally,

(01:10:04):
Margaret being found forty five ft away from Gibb that's
odd to me. And the corner did place her time
of death two hours after his. Eventually he did. They
initially thought that they had died at the same time,
but then it was found that he died at five
am and she died at seven a m ish. So poison,
I don't know, it metabolizes differently in your body. It

(01:10:26):
could explain why they died at different times. Yeah, if
it were under his seat, he would have gotten most
of it and she would have gotten some of it.
I don't know. Disoriented, She could have been disoriented. That's
why she had his underwear that far away. She's trying
to pull her underwear up and then just fell over
and died. I don't know, it's a It does seem

(01:10:46):
to me that they just were really sick for whatever reason.
There's there's stuff about the fact that they were at
the river bank. Yeah, and that's where the trail of
feces begins. So but I don't I don't know that
at the river bank, on a muddy river bank is
where I would go to have a nighttime affair. Yeah,

(01:11:08):
I don't think that's where the mucky Yeah not not
not where I would consider optical romance. Then again, romance
probably wasn't really involved in this. Yeah, but I'm a
little surprised that Dr Bogolis, at least it was ignorant
of this this thing. Like, for example, people think sex
on the beach is really romantic, bad idea because the

(01:11:33):
kind of germs and stuff that exists and toxins that
exists in sand on beaches, and I'm sure it's the
same for this river are things that you really don't
want to get inside your body. Yeah, because we were
about to go down a really bad trail. Can we
just go to the next theory? Oh yeah, no problem.

(01:11:55):
But yeah, there's one last series and this is something
that's gaining traction in recent year years, and this theory
is that Bogel and Chandler were killed by hydrogen sulfide poisoning.
The big proponent of this theory is an Australian guy
named Peter Butt who made a documentary on the topic
and he also that was aired by the Way in ABC,
which is the Australian broadcast channel I think um. And

(01:12:17):
he also wrote a book that talks a little bit
more extensively about his theory, and the book is called
Who Killed Dr Bogel and Mrs Chandler? And I want
to give another shout out to Elena Listener we talked
about at the beginning, who suggested this episode, and she
was kind enough to send us a copy of the book.
Was really awesome because yeah, we all read. Steve was like,

(01:12:38):
everybody read this, Yeah it was. It was one of
my first actual homework assignments for everybody. A real book.
Here you go, not just check out this silly black
background website. Yeah, I know. And and by the way,
I don't know who's responsible, but sorry Elena for the
chocolate fingerprints. That was Devin. I'm sure it was Joe. Okay, fine.

(01:13:05):
The spot on the river where they were found is
surrounded by mangrove trees. Well that's it. There you go,
Denver mangrove trees. They might have been CAJB spies. I
don't know, but it happens that mangrove trees actually do
emit hydrogen sulfide. It's in According to experts, it's theoretically
possible to be gas to death in a mangrove swamp.

(01:13:26):
It's really unlikely, but if if air conditions are just right.
I there, the air is totally stagnant, no wind, and
if you were in a low spot in the ground
by the time of day actually makes a difference too,
then it's theoretically possible to be gassed just by mangroves.
Not likely, not likely, but that's a one in axilian chance. Yeah,

(01:13:50):
but there was there was something else that was augmenting
the hydrogen sulfide concentration in the area, and then that
was pollution. There had in the past ben Tani factory
is a chemical company, of Vinegar Gap company. All these
guys dump and waste into the river. There was also
a sewer super line, which I don't know if the
sewer line leaked or not, but they actually laid the

(01:14:11):
super line right down the middle of the river. Yeah,
they always do, yeah, yeah uh. And also that this
is probably the worst defender, was the Chicago Cornflower and
Starch mill, which dumped about twenty million gallons of sulfurous
waste into the river every year from until about sixty
years later when they closed. So a lot of that

(01:14:34):
stuff accumulated. The sulfurous waste apparently killed bottle plants and fish.
It caused a rise in what's called separal phytic bacteria,
which I don't know much about bacteria, to be honest
with you, but apparently this particularly kind of bacteria they
live on dead organic matter, organic matter, and they produce
hydrogen sulfide. Yeah. That may be the kind of stuff

(01:14:56):
where you see a pond that it is full of
algae and everything dies, and then the algae dies and
then nothing ever grows in it again because the follow
that bacteria, Because we've all seen those kind of dead ponds.
Oh yeah, I know, yeah. And also making matters even worse,
is they constructed a weird downstream from the site. Yeah,
it's a weir is a low dam. And the idea

(01:15:17):
of a weird is that it's low enough that water
can still flow over the top of it, but it
still dams it up and creates like a pond or
pool behind. Problem with the weir is all the stuff
that's flowing downstream can most of it's like just accumulating,
it's not just flowing out to sea. And actually this river,
the river, the Lancomb River, code river that we're talking about,

(01:15:38):
is actually a tributary of a larger river, so it's
not flowing directly in the sea, of course, but but anyway,
so and also title action can't come up like tidle
water from downstream can't be shoved up and sort of
flush it out and back downstream. None of that's going
on because the weird is blocking the path because all
of this stuff that that's getting dumped in the rivers

(01:16:01):
acting like a sediment and just building up. Yeah, pretty much.
So that's the theoretically as possible that there could be
you know, that can actually be eruptions of hydrogen sulfide yeah, bubbles,
bubbles in the mud go burst and then next thing
you know, a big cloud of hydrogen sulfide comes out.
And residents of the area had been complaining for decades
about a really bad rotten egg smell in the area,

(01:16:24):
in the neighborhood, and well, that's what hydrogen sulfide smells like. Cool. Yeah,
that stinks. Yeah, yeah, at a level of one for you. Sorry,
yeah that was lamb Oh, come on, I was trying. No,
it was a high quality attempted humor. So one part

(01:16:46):
per million, you'll notice it sort of notice a bad
smell at about thirty parts pavilion itself sulfide. Yeah, about
thirty parts per million and up it smells like rotten
egg eggs. And then apparently at fit between fifty and
a hundred perch familiar, it smells supposedly kind of sickeningly sweet.

(01:17:07):
And I don't know, I haven't smelled the stuff. I
can't say I've ever smelled that concentration, and I'm happy
about that. I don't know if I've ever whipped this stuff.
Tell you the truth, over a hundred parts familiar and
it paralyzes your olfactory nerve almost instantly, so you can't
smell it, so you can't smell it, and it's invisible
to you. Yeah, you just wouldn't notice it. You just
knows yourself feeling sick and puking and having breathlessness, Yeah,

(01:17:31):
and you'd go, gee, I wonder what's going on with this?
You know, and then you just uh, you know, not
feeling so hot. Yeah, I'm puking. Okay, Well, so what
you would probably just die, right, I mean, unless you
left the area, unless you're lucky enough to leave the area. Yeah,
I mean, yeah, I don't know. I mean if I
walked into a room, for example, and I started getting
breathless and puking, I probably would walk out of the room. Yeah, hopefully, Yeah, Yeah,

(01:17:56):
but yeah, I never know. I mean, they're going to
be auction in. Deprived brain is not gonna be functioning
on a dent, so who knows. I'm told that at
two hundred parts per million, respiratory failure, respiratory failure occurs
within seconds, and at a thousand parts per million, which
we're not even close to that, but a single breath
can cause cardiac arrest just like that. So the levels

(01:18:20):
here were probably in the in the hundred plus range
at the river, but they weren't measured, so nobody knows
exactly sure. It's it's kind of anecdotal. Yeah, it appears
that a hundred parts per million was not uncommon in
the area on still windless days. Um. And because it's
heavier than air, it tends to pool and hollows and
low spots like down right over the river and stuff

(01:18:42):
like that, you know, like you know, down the riverbed.
And so I would see at the low points along
the bank and to anybody that's breathing it in, when
it reaches those concentrations of a plus a hundred percent
parts per million, you don't know this there. You just
notice all of a sudden you're breathless, you're not yes,
and you get confused. You just don't make good choices

(01:19:05):
and you wind up, you know when I mean, these
people probably could have saved themselves. I buy the theory.
I think it's the most So you're you're in. You're
in for this one. Well this is my number two one.
Oh well, let's keep going on this one before you
go from you because I think I know what your
number is going to be. Of course. Okay, So so yeah,

(01:19:26):
they could have saved themselves. I mean, obviously, if their
brains have been functioning at they could have just like
stood up. Just standing up might have done it, might
have done the trick ranging themselves up that high, and
certainly walking up the river bank getting away would probably
have done a lot. Yeah, that's fair. I think if
you add in that they may have been drunk or
otherwise inebriated, I buy it a little more. But they

(01:19:50):
were horizontal. Do you have the problem of him dying
so much faster than her, and also her making it
forty five ft away from him. That's not a small
a distance. It's not a huge distance, but it's not
like right there. And then I guess none of these
theories really addressed the fact that they're all covered up.

(01:20:10):
But you know, well, but let me let me and
I'm trying to figure out how to not say this
too graphically. But if they are in the act and
he is excited, he's probably going to be taking very
deep breasts and breathing in quite rapidly, where if she

(01:20:33):
is not as excited, she's breathing more normally. He may
have been taking more of it in, and as they
try to scramble away, he can't make it, which is
why she gets farther away and doesn't die as quickly.
Or the other thing is possibly he was on the
bottom when she was on the top. I mean, I mean,

(01:20:55):
I'm just thinking of it in terms of respiration. Is
where I was taking that is that he may have
been very excited and rapidly breathing and getting more of it.
I mean, if we're going to say this is what
it is, and I'm I'm not on this theory, well,
but yeah, it's got his weirdness is number one being

(01:21:16):
at least a couple more people should have died over
the years by this river. Additionally, the people who found,
you know, not so long after or hay Less, who
was in that same area the time, should have said,
oh it was really stinky, or oh I was feeling
a little ill myself. He didn't have any one thing

(01:21:37):
to know about its hydrogen sulfide. Correct. One of the
things that breaks it down super fast is sunlight. Well,
so if they're all there, if the boys are there
at nine, Chalice is there around the same time, but
he's walking around. He was there at the same time, right,

(01:21:58):
He was there at the same time as Bogol and
handler right, But he's not on the river bank. Sure,
he's not that far away though, Oh yeah, I guess
that's true. If it's five in the morning, you walk
the path, there's not sun Yeah, no, I can see
where the sunshine issue. Okay, I see where the problem
is with that. But he's also not on the river bank, right.
But if it's in that high concentration down below, at

(01:22:20):
the very least, he's going to say it was really strong, odor,
I really didn't feel okay or something. If it was
so strong that it could literally kill people not fifty
ft down the bank, he's gonna feel some effects or
atly smell something or mentioned something about that, you would think.
But but he may not have mentioned it because people

(01:22:41):
who lived in that areas I think Joe had talked
about before, had been complaining about this for years. So
it just may have been this part of the river stinks.
Maybe well also talking about it, because it just everybody
knows this river stinks. You never know too, because there's
a medical condition nosing as man, which means that you
can't smell, you can't detect odors, and it's actually more

(01:23:04):
common than people realize. And so maybe that's just yeah,
so that's and that's you know, entirely within But but now,
I mean, there were other people, like it wasn't it
the case that some of the reporters that went down
and checked out the crime scene were reported are really
disgusting odor? Yeah they did. Of course, that could have

(01:23:25):
been all the feces too. I don't know, Yeah, that
probably wasn't Probably probably didn't help matters. Huh, all the
puk and feces. Yeah, well you you, Joe. I hesitate
to give you the rains for this one, but you
had one more theory. Oh no, no, no, I'm not
gonna I'm not gonna bring it up. You guys can't
handle the truth. Well, goodness, we don't have to hear

(01:23:50):
it that. Yeah, but anyway, I guess really wouldn't know.
If you can learn anything from this is that these
guys should have gotten the motel. Yeah, that lie certainly
would have been a lot too. Yeah, next time, get
a freaking room. Okay, yeah, yeah, that's the moral of
the story. Well, before we wrap this up, Joe, you

(01:24:10):
it sounds like you're mostly behind the hydrogen sulfide theory
for the most part. That's that's you that's your number
one candidate. Yeah. I mean, when you set aside all
the all the lurid, ludicrous murder theories, I don't see
anybody that had a strong motive to kill these people.
And the idea of making up a really exotic aerosol

(01:24:33):
that can kill them and not leave any any anything
in their tissues and stuff like that, Well, how many
people have that capability? Yeah, and so this is the
only one that really, you know, actually makes any sense
at all, even though I still have a problem with it.
Like I said, more people should have been dying along
that river. Yeah, Yeah, that's what I don't get. Yeah,
I think I leaned slightly towards poisoning of some kind,

(01:24:55):
just because I do think that there's a strong anecdotal
evidence at least for them being sick upon exit of
the car. I think that seems to me. I don't know.
Maybe they parked next to Scheila's, realized that he was there,
so they parked the car. They parked it across the
street from him. So they were going out, They were
about to go to town on each other, and then

(01:25:16):
oh crap, I feel sick, better run out and there
I don't know again, though there are a lot of
unanswered questions. Stuff actually not just occurs to me that
you know, what, if somebody gave them a poison, but
not really not something intended to kill them, but something
which actually had a delatarious effect on their respiratory system,

(01:25:38):
something which actually, you know, in one of the side
effects of maybe that somebody gave him a laxative because
just for fun, you know, and but maybe this particular
drug also a side effect of being bad for your
respiratory system. But of course it's not, you know, not
typically in the doses you give it, it's not going
to affect you that adversely. One of the things that

(01:26:01):
Ruth Nash got investigated for was she also, if I
remember correct, she was into the dosh hound scene as well.
She loved oxins and she had de worming medication for
the dogs that have been prescribed by her vet, which
if you've ever accidentally gotten anything like that, it has

(01:26:24):
the effect of a laxative on the human system. And
so that happens. These things happen, and they checked her out,
they checked all their pills, they checked the bodies for that.
So it could have been some kind of derivative like that.
I'm not, but I know that that was something that
got looked into. I personally, the only one that works

(01:26:48):
is the sulfide, the hydrogen sulfide. But my my issue
with it is, as Joe said, why did more people
die and over the years in places that are notorious
for actually having these eruption is of hydrogen sulfide, there's
only been a handful of deaths. It doesn't happen too often.
It doesn't happen too often. And I this is the

(01:27:10):
only one that was a double murder from this. If
it was this two deaths at the same time, I
have an issue with. I don't have a better theory.
None of them seem to stand up. This is the
only one that seems to have some evidence behind it.
But it's just so lucky. The odds of it happening

(01:27:32):
at that time, let's be fair, are so high. Yeah,
But I also have the problems with the who who
covered their bodies, and because like, two hours is a
long time for her to have outlived him. It's one
thing if it were forty five minutes and half an hour,
even an hour, fine, But for them to be breathing

(01:27:54):
the same toxins in the same quantities. But for her
last two whole hours longer than in him. She was
five ft away. She may have been just high enough. Yeah,
she was unconscious. I don't, but she was in a depression,
and which is probably would and if I could be wrong,
but I think the drawings looked like she was actually

(01:28:16):
closer to the I mean, it's it's true the pocket
could have been more localized to where he was. That's fine,
but it does seem weird. Yeah, I don't know where
I stand. I don't. I can't pull any of these
is my prime I love this theory. Yeah, I'm saying
it was the professor in the library with a lead
pipe again. Yeah, okay, okay, you can cut that. You

(01:28:40):
can get that one at if. If you have a
theory about this that you would like to share with us,
you are more than welcome to do that. You can
go to our website, which is Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.
You can leave a comment on the site. Of course,
you'll find some of our research there and the audio
for this episode or any of the episodes that we've

(01:29:02):
put out. Most folks are listening to us through some
streaming app, whether it be Stitcher or a web app
or a mobile app we're on. Most of those were,
of course on iTunes, so if you're on iTunes, please
do take the time leave us a comment and a rating.
We are on Facebook. We have the group and the

(01:29:24):
Facebook page and both. The group is most has been
insanely busy lately and it's been fantastic all the stuff
that's going on. So that's really really fun. So if
you want to get in on that, like the page,
joined the group, everybody seems to be enjoying that. Of course,

(01:29:45):
we're on Twitter. It is Thinking Sideways to drop the
g on Thinking, you can find us there. We do tweet,
we have we have conversations with folks on there as well. Yeah,
or well it's a hundred and some odd characters. It's
not a big conversation, but uh, and let's see what else.
Of course, we've got our email address if you do

(01:30:07):
want to tell us something, you've got thoughts on this
story or suggestions for other ones. Eddie and all emails
are happily received at Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail dot com.
Without saying that having been said, it just Devin looks
at me every time do that we're going to roll

(01:30:28):
this one up. Put it in the can, slap a
bow on it, and call it done. Yes. Yeah, we've
been working on this one for a while and I
still don't know what I'm doing with it. I'll stay
in hell away from that river. Now. They took the
weird out, I think, but it up. Hopefully we're gonna

(01:30:52):
go ahead and well I'm going to call it a night.
I don't know about YouTube, so I will talk to forever.
But yeah, no, I guess I'll go to everybody. Bye, guys,

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