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July 19, 2018 • 65 mins

Federal prosecutor Jonathan Luna left his office to go on a long solitary midnight drive, and then was discovered dead the following morning, under very suspicious circumstances, many miles from home. What happened to Jonathan Luna?

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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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(01:06):
Hi there, Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I
am Joe, joined as always by Steve and and we've
got another cool mystery to talk about this week. We're
going to talk about the very strange death of prosecutor
Jonathan Luna. Yeah, yeah, interesting case, this one. It really
it's it's it's a twisty turney one for what appears

(01:28):
to be so simple on the outside. Yeah, it's it's
still confounding people. Fifteen years later. The case is still open.
It's still a reward out for information. Before I get
into our story that I want to just give a
shout out to our listeners. Several people suggested this, including
Robert Stan, Judith and Monique and probably a few others.
It's yeah, we've had it on our radar for a

(01:48):
long time here at tsph Q. So let's start our story.
Our story begins on the morning of Thursday, December four,
two thousand three, five thirty am, Jonathan Luda, federal prosecutor,
was found dead in a ditch in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania,
just south of the Pennsylvania Turnpike. His body was faced

(02:09):
down in a very small creek. He had been stabbed
thirty six times with a small knife and also had
what was described as a traumatic wound on the right
side of his head. So, okay, there we go. We
got our body. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay. Before we start

(02:32):
telling all the great gory details, I want to talk
a little bit about Jonathan Luna. He was thirty eight
years old, an assistant U S Attorney at the Baltimore,
Maryland office. He was married. His wife was a doctor.
They had been married for ten years. They had two kids.
They had a townhouse in a suburb just southwest of Baltimore,
and Luna was actually kind of from humble beginnings. He

(02:53):
was born and raised in the South Bronx, New York,
kind of a tough neighborhood. And but he was always
kind of vocation into school unlike a lot of his classmates,
and got himself through law school past the bar, had
several different attorney jobs until you got this. What I
have heard is a really good job at the U. S.
Attorney's Office. Apparently it's it's a considered to be a
great opportunity, pretty high at the ladder it is. Yeah,

(03:16):
so he'd done well for himself considering where he came from.
So he's been doing that job for several years. But
unfortunately it all came to it end. On the morning
of December four, two thousand three, Jonathan Lena's body was
found behind a well drilling business. I'm not going to
name them because poor guys, they probably got enough phone
calls about this one. I'm gonna I'm not but that
they were on lookated on Dry Tavern Road, which is

(03:39):
less than a thousand feet south of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, uh,
and just on the eastern edge of the town of Denver, Pennsylvania.
Tire tracts indicated that Luda had driven onto the property
and passed the building, parked behind the building for a
little period of time, and then from there the car
was driven further west to the end of the site
and into this sort of cricks last ditch at the

(04:01):
rear of the property. And they call it a creek,
but you know, and I guess it is a very
tiny little creek. And it wasn't as if the car
had driven into the just kind of tipped over the
edge and front stopped, front tires kind of went over
the edge. Yeah, the engine was still running. The car
was not you know, wrecked or anything like that. And
then Jonathan Luna's body was found below the car, faced

(04:22):
down in the water. Driver's side door and the fender
were smeared with blood. There was blood inside the car,
including some on the floor on the back seat of
the car, a fair amount from like a pool of
blood back there, yeah yea uh. And the blood in
the back seat, of course, led law enforcement to wonder
if perhaps Luna had been abducted, maybe forced to lay

(04:42):
down in the back of the car for a while. Yeah,
maybe maybe not, we'll see. Um, he was well dressed.
He was dressed in a business suit, tie, black overcoat.
His wallet was still in his pocket. There were twenty
dollar bills strewn about the inside of the car. Uh
So robbery did not appear to be a motive in
this particular crime. But it did, and I frankly look
like a murder. Yeah. Although oddly, when the autopsy results

(05:05):
came back, it turned out that Jonathan Luna had died
from drowning and not from being stabbed thirty six times,
which is kind of odd when you think about it.
But you can. You can drown in an inch of water.
Oh yeah, it's possible, and this is an example of it. Yeah. Well,
you know, he would have died of his wounds probably,
it was just the water got him first. Yeah. I
was gonna say, it's pretty easy to drown when you've
been stabbed so much that you're just dying from good

(05:27):
point that too, if you're just totally passed out, you've
lost so much blood and you're just laying face down
in a creek, pretty easy way to drown. That's a
good point. Well, so, how did he get to that point,
Let's start at the beginning. The last time, the last
night he was seen alive. The night before December three,
he was at home working. He'd been prosecuting a drug
trafficking case, and on the third day of the trial,

(05:50):
he had decided to kind of plea agreement with the defendants.
There were two of them in this case. He was
writing up these agreements, one for each, so you can
have them ready in court. The next morning, he left
us how us around eleven PM and went into the office. Uh.
Live very far away, not that far away now, pretty quick.
I mean, actually he was really close to a major
road free with slash freeway that dumped out right downtown

(06:10):
near his office. Uh. And then after that he left
his office at p M. He left his glasses and
his cell phone on his desk, which is considered odd
by a lot of people at work. At work. Yeah, um,
it's believed that he needed his glasses for driving, although
I'm not sure how badly he needed his glasses for driving. Apparently,
like I see that actually some driving that night, and

(06:32):
apparently he did just fine, So I don't think he
needed him all that bad. It might have been like
some My wife wears glasses, but she doesn't need them
all the time, but she really likes to have her
glasses at night because it helps cut down the glare
and and that and you know, makes it easier to
understand road signs. But she can still drive as if

(06:53):
she was you know. It's not as if he was
blind as a bat without that. No, no, exactly. I
mean I I don't have to wear my glasses when
I drive, but especially at night, I do prefer to
you because yeah, probably now, it's just it's really a
pain to try to read signs after dark, you know,
without your glasses on. Anyway, back to enough of that,
but also the phone is considered odd by people. That's
but that's people who are posting on Reddit in the

(07:14):
year twenty seventeen or eighteen, and people they can't imagine
being away from their phone. Yeah this was, yeah, this
was two thousand three. When this happens, people weren't, you know,
as married to their phone. So I don't put a
lot of weight on that. Well, obviously, the police were
interested in knowing where Jonathan Luna went between p m.
When he left his office and five thirty A and

(07:36):
when his dead body is discovered, so naturally, Uh, they
checked of course bank and credit card debit card records,
and also toll road receipts, because there's a lot of
toll roads on the East coast. We have none out
here in the West, but they're just all the well
bridges and that's about it. Yeah, and even those are
few in farms between. Yeah, they kind of are. Yeah. Actually,

(07:57):
we California has tolls. Yeah, four years chuck full of tolls,
and the Oregon doesn't. That's why they have better roads
than we do. That trap, yeah, but they have they've
easy passes, yeah, exactly, that's that's that's what people do
because otherwise if you have to stop and actually give
some change to a guy, oh my god, yeah, I'm

(08:18):
fifty cents short, Yeah, which means waiting in line and stuff.
So they have easy passes. You just sails through. It's
just a little like electronic thing and it links up
to the thing and they do some places they do
them by um license plate anymore too, because the cameras
can read them, and that reading your license plate all
the time anyway. So yeah, and of course the extra

(08:38):
textually mentioning that because it turns out Jonathan Luna had
one in his car. Yeah, he had an easy pass. Yeah.
So between bank records and his easy pass records, they
were able to reconstruct his little journey. Uh. And I'm
not going to give you the whole timeline, but but
you can find it online if you really want to
see it. It's in a lot of different places. The
brief version is he left Baltimore, drove northeast across Maryland

(09:00):
of Delaware, made his way to Newark, Delaware, where he
took two hundred bucks out of a a t M
and then from nart to Peers. He continued into maybe
New Jersey, then over to Philadelphia, headed northwest to the
town of King of Prussia, Pennsylvania. Welcome up when nast
name by the way, it's great. Yeah, I don't know
if you lived there. You call it kop You just

(09:22):
call it k or Prussia. What do you call yourselves?
And royalty, that's what you call yourself, your highness. So
he but he bought gas there. Yeah, he thought there's
a there's a little a little thing right off the turnpike.
There's not even a formal exit. There's just a gas
station right there. But gas also a snack in a soda,
being paid with his either debity, I think it's debit card.
And from there he continued west on the turnpike to

(09:45):
exit two eighties six, which is just on the front
of the eastern edge of Denver and past Pennsylvania. Yeah,
Exe Denver. When when there is a town that is
the same name as a major town somewhere else, you
can get can using so I just want to make
sure it's Denver p A. Yeah, it is Denver p A. Yeah,
it's interesting to you. Also went to Newark, Delaware. I

(10:06):
never even knew until he researched the story there was Newark, Delaware.
Nobody else knew either, even the people that lived there.
At that point he got off the exit, he had
to pass through a toll booth and pay, and and
there he presented a paper ticket. And this is this
is one thing that happened is he was using his
easy pass when he started his little journey, but then
he switched to cash for some reason. I would wonder

(10:27):
if maybe it's because his easy pass only has a
certain range. You know, they're only good and certain Remember,
so you're here tri met the rail system. They used
to have zones and you could pay for zone one,
zone one and two, zone one, two and three when
you bought things, and I wonderful, how well, But I'm
wondering if maybe he was in some weird government paid

(10:50):
program that only allowed him a certain radius. Who knows,
It's probably not that important, or maybe he just didn't
want people know him where he went. I don't know.
And here's question too, is um, you know most of
these things would have cameras attached to them. Is it
confirmed that he is the one who you know, went
and took two hundred dollars out that you did all

(11:11):
these little things? Uh, not necessarily, you know. They obviously
they checked the camera in the A t M. And
I've heard two versions of this. One says it wasn't
working period and the other one camera yeah and then
a t M. The other one I heard is that
it was working and that he had nobody, nobody with
him and he appeared calm and normal and uninjured, so

(11:33):
you know, to the two versions of the same thing.
So I don't know. And then the other other place
they were able to find footage was at that gas
station that he stopped at in King of Prussia, and
their camera was working, but he never appears on film there.
So somehow he managed to evade that camera. I don't
enough intentionally, probably just accidentally. It just wasn't quite putting
in the right direction. So yeah, they didn't really have

(11:57):
any footage of that there. There were also a couple
of employees that gas station who remembered him, or at
least they said they did, and they said there was
nothing odd going on with him. But anyway, he as
I said, he left the turnpike at ex at two
six uh, and then he circled back on the south
side of the Pennsylvania Turnpike, went back eastward until he

(12:17):
got the Dry Tavern Road, interesting name, Dry Tavern and
then from there, yeah, I know, what's the point, right,
But then he goes north and turns on to the
property of the drilling place, and you know, we know
what the rest is. He is stabbed by somebody or
something and he times weird. But the weird thing about
the timeline of his night is it took him roughly

(12:40):
three hours to arrive on Dry Dry Tavern Road, straight Tavern,
Dry Tavern Road. He took a round about root, right,
But if you map the route that he took it's
about an hour and a half drive when there's no traffic,
So there's a lot of unaccounted time there, and I
think that's one of the things that gives a lot
of people paw is what was he doing in the

(13:02):
other hour and a half? Well, yeah, there is there
is a chunk of time there which is like, I mean,
a lot of that stuff that he was. Well, we
caught him here going using an easy pass which saw
the A T M here, So that's kind of accounted
for because even they would have taken him about that
one to get from A to B. But there is
that one little patch whereas about an hour or so
hour and a half maybe even though just totally on
account of time, they don't know where he was and

(13:23):
what he was doing exactly, which you know, he may
well just have been driving around still or maybe he
stopped off to buy drugs by a gun. I mean,
who knows, see a movie. I mean, we don't know.
So the so the local authorities, which would be the
Lancaster County Coroner's Office, ruled the case of homicide based
on their autopsy results. Again, there were thirty six stab wounds,

(13:46):
so that is kind of suspicious. Plus there was that
head wound, and they don't say, I mean, they haven't
actually released a lot of information. The case is still open,
so that means a lot of this stuff is still unavailable.
So when they say head, well, I don't know what
that means. He was hit with a rock baseball all
bad at Crowbar. You don't know. I mean, we just
don't know exactly the nature of that wound. Um, so

(14:07):
it sounds like it's notable. Most of the stab wounds
were very shallow. In fact, you know, almost all of them.
They were what they called pricks, just little teeny stabs
and so not really deep stabs at all. But for
them were pretty deep. Only one could really be called fatal,
which was a stab in the neck that partially severed
one of Jonathan Luna's caarated arteries. Those are pretty important

(14:29):
major so if Luna had not drowned, then certainly he
would have led out from this wound anyway, there's no
doubt about that. And as for the thirty two stab
wounds that weren't deep, these could be interpreted two different ways.
One is torture. Somebody's just stabbed him a lot, just
out of sheer sudism or something, or the other way

(14:49):
you can interpret them is is hesitation marks, which we've
talked about before, because um, there are those shallow wounds
that suicidal people make before they finally work up the
will to make a final deep cut. You a lot,
though it's a lot typically from what I've heard that
there's usually no more than maybe ten hesitation marks and
a typical suicide. So thirty two is a hell of

(15:11):
a lot. So that's odd. That would argue kind of
for torture, wouldn't it, You would think, Uh. And then
also there was the presence of defensive wounds or maybe not.
There was a leak from a federal law enforcement agent
that to a reporter that his hands were all all
slashed up and everything, although it turns out apparently that's
not true, that the medical examiners said that all the

(15:33):
stabs were basically run his chest, shoulders neck. See now
there's you gave us that article that was what Mr
Luna's midnight ride, and the guy who wrote that wrote
some other articles chasing this story and said that he
actually talked to the mortician that dealt with the body
and said that the cuts on the hands were so

(15:54):
much that they had first tried to stitch him together
for the for the you know, for the funeral, and
in the end for the viewing, they had to put
his hands in gloves because they were just so sliced
up they couldn't stitch it closed and hide it. Yeah,
so that would lead one to believe that they're actually
caught up more. And that person also indicated that the
cuts on his back, because there were cuts on his

(16:17):
neck and his shoulders, they were more around the middle
of his back, kind of near his shoulder blades, out
what appeared to be out of reach of what a
person could normally reach. You how you get that itch
between your shoulder blades and you can't get it? That's
the only place where I get itches. Yes, but that's
they indicated that there were cuts back there. So that's

(16:37):
why I questioned the wounds weren't as bad as as
they were. But I've I've seen incredible, very credible sources
that say that all that is. Who has another another
claim that his crown him was slashed, and I've heard
but then the best it seems like the best sources
I've seen it just say that it was thirty six,
just around in places that were not impossible or came

(17:01):
to reach if he had self inflicted. The wounds morticians
also the one who talked about the scrotum having several
that did not appear to be anything that a man
would normally do to himself. Yeah, now, typically that's that's
not a place we go to. Uh So, I I've
got to say, that's that's kind of up in the
air for me. It really is. I mean, obviously, if

(17:22):
he has a stab wound, like you know, between the
shoulder blades where he could not possibly have reached, that
sort of changes things, do you know, it really does.
But so we're just gonna have to be agnostic on
that particular one. I think so based on our crime
scene and the wounds and the evidence of his very
long and explained car ride, it looked like, you know,
at first blush that Luna had been abducted perhaps and

(17:44):
then murdered, But then evidence from the car and the
crime scene didn't totally support that. There actually not at all.
There was There was nothing found in the car. There
was a partial fingerprint that was unidentifiable, and a little
bit of blood that didn't belong to Jonathan Luna. Those
are found in the car, but that was it. And
other than that, there was no evidence that anybody other

(18:04):
than Luna had been in the car. No d n
A or hair or fingerprints or footprints or anything. But
most of the blood wasn't also at the crime scene, right,
I mean most of the blood was in the car. Yeah,
most of the blood was in the car. I assumed
there was. There was some on the ground and near him,

(18:24):
but it was the evidence. Wasn't that somebody had walked
up to him there and stabbed him thirty six times
and he had stumbled down right the creek. Yeah? No, no, no,
no evidence for that now, and no evidence that somebody
had been in the car with him either. Yeah, that
would be unfortunate, you know, to be out in your
cruise to go to this total place we'd never expect
to see anybody and there's Mr. Serial killer waiting for you.

(18:46):
On the other hand, there was no murder weapon there,
which would argue was kind of argue for murder because
we have a murder we would expect would take it
away with him, right, and no murder weapon there. It
would also explain why most of the blood was like
in the back of the car, not in the driver's
that would that would maybe be an indicator. Yeah, but
le's assuming assuming for a second that it was murdered,
than what would the motive be? And of course a

(19:08):
lot of people wandered, federal prosecutor, did it has something
to do with this job? Maybe? So we'll talk a
little bit here about his last case because it's kind
of relevant. I think this is the trial for which
he was writing up the plea agreements on his last evening.
There were a couple of guys Dion Smith, Walter Point
Dexter on federal trial for drug possession and trafficking, and

(19:31):
this case wasn't going as well as it could have
for Luna, which is why he was cutting this plea deal.
And you know, people have wondered, could his death have
had something to do with this trial, for example, because
these two defendants were drug traffickers, one of them was
facing the death penalty. Yeah, people were thinking to have
something to do with these guys, and their lawyers actually
poo pooed the idea because they said, well, naturally, but

(19:55):
actually they make a good argument for this because I
mean it said that basically these guys were on the
verge of getting a really sweet plea deal that actually
was very favorable to them, and so they weren't they
were actually happy, so that that might rule them out.
I don't know. But then again, he was a prosecutor,
so he would put other people away, so maybe somebody
else was Yeah, so maybe somebody else was angry. Um.

(20:16):
But of course all that stuff was looked into, and
probably his most most dangerous psychotic cases and people like
that were all looked at, and they found no evidence
to to link anybody to it. Uh. At the investigation ground.
On about six or so weeks after the murder of
a small pen knife was found in the mud of
the creek where his body had been found. So hey,

(20:37):
that's progress. And police say that they believe it was Luna's.
They won't say whether it has blood or fingerprints on it. Uh,
And they also don't say why they have concluded it
was Luna's knife. I don't know if they showed her
to his wife or initials that could be that could
be it too. I had no idea. So again, one
of the one of these days when they closed his
case and we can look at these records, we might

(20:58):
find out. But a long about this time, this is
a long about February two thousand four as a case
grinds on. Of course, it attracted a lot of press
attention on the East Coast, which case Jonathan Luna's case. Yeah, yeah,
I talked about Dion and so clarifying we're still talking
about We're back to looking about the Luna case. I

(21:19):
just wanted to talk about a little bit. I'll talk
a bit a bit more about Smith and point Extra
in their case here in a minute. But around this time,
leaks from law enforcement began to appear in the media.
It turns out they found that Luna had a profile
at least one internet dating website. Yeah, what was the one, actually, Madison? Yeah,

(21:44):
probably that one, yeah dot Com. So naturally that this
raised the possibility that maybe he got murdered by something
very sketchy woman that he met online or her another
or maybe that too. That always raises that possibility. And
they also I found out that he had about bucks
in debt from a couple of credit cards at a

(22:04):
second mortgage, so you know, bucks, and that's not chicken feed,
although I guess for a guy making his wage, maybe
it's not a life ending deal either. I don't know. Yeah,
I imagine he was pretty well compensated in that position. Yeah.
But here's the thing about that is, I also feel
like I would like to make that assumption. But if
you have that much money, you pay your your debt off, yeah,

(22:27):
you know you usually not always, not always, certainly there
are people who are irresponsible. But if it was well
within his means to pay off that debt, it's likely
been making a dentiant. If he's the kind of guy
that leads the house at eleven o'clock at nine and
goes to the office and then leaves the office at
midnight to come back home because he had to go
do more work, he may have just those kind of

(22:47):
details just didn't matter. Let it be on the minimum payment.
I'll take care of it eventually until and then he's
got an OS moment and you know, take care of it.
Well maybe, I mean maybe his wife usually took care
of money stuff. Maybe I don't know. Speaking of his wife. Oh,
by the way, it turns out he also had at

(23:08):
least one credit card that she didn't know about. Ye, yeah,
which is not don't all. Yeah, I'm telling your wife,
I have bank accounts that woman doesn't know about. Don't
tell her she doesn't doesn't listen to the podcast. Thank god? Yeah,
thank god. That the other reason I'm spilling the beans here.
Actually nobody she knows listens and I don't have an
insurance policy on her thought, Yeah I do. But anyway,

(23:34):
what else? Oh? Yeah, and I don't know how how
hanky this is. Apparently he taken a lot about explayed
trips to Philadelphia, and he took four just in the
month before he died. Nobody really knows why he did that. Yeah,
that could be uh, And there was actually had met
a woman named Ashley Madison and was going to visit her.
Not the dating website. You just met an actual person. Well,

(23:55):
if you're gonna have a dating website, I mean, if
you're going to be a Skis and have a dating
profile while you're married, it behooves you to have your
dating profile, say you live in a different place, so
that if your wife for some reason also was a
dating profile, or if she goes on to find you,
wouldn't that be a rude? And speaking of us, I'm

(24:17):
sure there's got to be at least several women in
American named Ashley Madison. And how do they feel about it?
I wanted I bet they do. Uh, Okay, where are
we at out of that? They really are having a
great time. Okay. There's one other thing I wanted to mention,
which is a possible stresser in Luna's life, which is
the year before, in two thousand two, he was prosecuting
a bank robbery case and some cash was brought into

(24:41):
the courtroom as evidence in three large plastic bags and
at the end of the day, Luna and an FBI
agent had to take it to the vault, the evidence
vault in the courthouse. Well, uh, ten days later, it
was discovered that one of those bags was missing, at
thirty eight thousand, one hundred dollars in it. There was
a little scandal about that made his way into the press,

(25:01):
and uh, everybody came under suspicion, including Luna. Even the
judge was interviewed by the FBI. The FBI being federal
courthouse FBI jurisdiction, so they were investigating this. He investigation
was still ongoing, and they at this point had no suspects.
They were polygraphing everybody, and according to leaks from law enforcement,

(25:22):
he was about and Luna was about to get polygraphed
himself for this particular thing, and so that may have
been a stresser in his life. I personally don't think
he stole the money, but he might be stressed that
this is a giant screw up and a black mark
on his record. Oh yeah, well he was the last
person to be in possession. Besides that that FBI agents.

(25:42):
So yeah. And then one other law enforcement leak came out.
It turns out that law enforcement discovered that Luna had
filled out an online application for a loan for about
thirty thousand bucks and two thousand two and apparently he
canceled the application right about the time that the money disappeared.
That left all suspicious And by the way, this is
like all these leaks, so I guess I'll give away

(26:04):
the game now. All these these leaks, in the eyes
of some people looked almost kind of concerted, almost as
if law enforcement was trying to trash Luna's reputation. Of
course that doesn't leaks. Yeah, yeah, that that that there
could have been a motive, in some sort of coordination
behind these I'm not sure that that's We've never seen

(26:24):
that with the government operation never ever. Yeah, A long
about this time, about early March, law enforcement began floating
the possibility that he might have killed himself. Up to
this point, everybody was sure it was murder, and now
suddenly the same maybe he killed himself. And there were
stories in the press New York Times, Washington Post right
about this time, including quotes from famous pathologists like Dr

(26:47):
Henry Lee. You guys have all heard of him, right, yeah,
and and one other guy who I forget, stating that
the shallow prick marks from that I probably were hesitation wounds.
So once some of the theory there for so suicide.
He was deep in debt and shaky suspected the theft
of all this cash, which at the very least we're
gonna damage his career probably if there was suspicions about that.

(27:08):
And I heard also that his boss didn't like each other.
His boss really didn't like him, wanted to fire him.
Although the boss won't comment on it, he's obviously was
asked by reporters. And so it was all this stuff
enough to kill himself over well, I don't know, not
necessarily in my book, but there was one other thing
that was going on. One he won on his last

(27:28):
big ride, and that was, of course, we talked about
the trial of Dion Smith and Walter Pointdexter for heroin
traffic so U and Walter point Extra by the way,
it was going to be tried later for murder drug
related murder, and Luda was also going to prosecute that.
Uh and this is serious stuff. Uh. Smith was looking
at several decades in prison, Point Dexter, death penalty and

(27:51):
so big thing. Essentially, Dion Smith was a mid level
drug supplier in Baltimore. Point Exter bought from him and
used and used that you supply his street level guys
that the guys on the corner, and he had a
star dealer named Warren Grace. Warren got arrested, was facing
huge amounts of time and offered to turn to essentially

(28:11):
squeal on Will Smith and pointdex evidence. Yeah, essentially. So
the Baltimore p D turned it over to the FBI,
the Justice Department. So there was an FBI agent named
Steve Skinner who was running that. We're going to run
him as an informant as Skinner. Yeah, yeah, I know
I made these same associations. I don't have that poor guy.

(28:33):
I'm sure he gets that constantly. I found him on LinkedIn.
I think he's still with the FBI. Yeah, And so
Luna was supervising this whole operation, and they he dropped
a couple of charges against Warren just to show his
his good will, and then Warren agreed to be their
informant against these two. He pleaded guilty to charges of

(28:56):
possession and gun possession also, and he was remanded to
a halfway house until he was sentenced. Now in the meantime,
he's gonna be there. He's gonna be there snitch, and
he's gonna wear a wire and everything. And he had
they had a written agreement he was going to not
use any guns or not engaging violence. He was going
to not use drugs or sell drugs, going to not

(29:18):
leave the halfway house without FBI permission, gonna wear an
ankle bracelet. And of course he broke every one of
those rules, every single one him. He was out no
time at all. He was out shooting up the neighborhood
and selling drugs and all that stuff back to his
old habits. Yeah, yeah, so he was. It's it's kind
of ironic, you know that they he was there, he

(29:39):
was their special informant, and they were really overlooking all
this stuff because he was wearing a wire and getting
some good information on Smith and Poindexter. So, but but
at some point it seems to me like they got
their priorities a little skewed, because, I mean, here's Warren,
who was at least as big a menace to society
as these two guys are trying to put in jail there,
and they're kind of covering for him while they're trying

(30:01):
to lock these other two guys up. Now, it really
wasn't a good situation anyway. Smith and Point Extra were
arrested May two thousand three, both for her own possession
and trafficking. Of course, Walter Pointdexter arrested for murder. That
was the murder of a guy named Alvin Jones, drug
related as I said, And it was decided they would

(30:22):
be tried together for the drug charges and then immediately
right after that Point Extra would be charged for the murder,
also prosecuted by Jonathan Luna. Well, the trial for the
drug charges began to send refers two thousand three, which
is just two days before Jonathan Luna's last ride. This
case should have been a slam dug for the prosecution.
They had tons of audio tape of both Smith and

(30:44):
point exter Is saying all kinds of incriminating things, And
of course they had Warren Grace's testimony star witness, star witness,
but unfortunately for the prosecution, Warren did not turn out
to be as credible a witness as everybody had hoped.
Yeah it or not. And Jonathan Luna approached the defence
team at lunchtime on Wednesday, December third and offered them

(31:07):
a plea deal. And that's the one he was working
on on the night that he disappeared. So this is
what's going on in his life today, that he left
Baltimore for his big long car ride and didn't have
a bearing on him winding up dead. Well, maybe we
got to talk about all that in our theories. But
before we got the theories, let's take a quick break
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Then we're back. So we've three basic theories here there
were before, but Choopy had an alibife for that night,
so sorry choppy haters, but yeah, there it is. Yeah,

(34:07):
he was working with Pinkerton's that day exactly. Yeah, there
were the series are it was murder or he was
murder suicide, yeah, or it was other murder, or it
was different murder it's d or maybe an accident. Yeah,
it would be an interesting accident. But still there's a plausible,

(34:30):
sort of plausible theory for an accident. So let's talk
about murder first. We like murder the best, so we
talked about it first. And a law enforceman had three
different sort of trains of thought they were following here,
and one is said, of course, murdered over his job.
Some vengeful x con or perhaps somebody on trial right now,
you know, decided to have him whacked. Or second, maybe

(34:51):
somebody he'd met online they pursued that line of thought.
Or maybe he just happened to have the bad luck
to run into a serial killer. He went out for
a drive to clear his head stuff, that one, that one,
you know, that one gets taped onto everything. And let's
just that I'm really gonna because first of all, I
think a serial killer would have chosen a better weapon.

(35:13):
So you think, yeah, the pen knife serial killer. Yeah,
well asked for the online dating stuff. Well, they never
found any any good leads or real evidence or suspects
in that either. And again I don't think. I don't
know exactly what he was up to. I mean, for
all I know, law enforcement lied about the dating website stuff.
Or maybe it was from back before he was married.

(35:35):
That doesn't really make any sense. Maybe not, I don't know. Okay, yeah,
I think it married for quite a few years. Yeah,
I don't know. Whatever. But and that leads revenge for
a previous prosecution, which is totally plausible. He put a
lot of people away, and that pisses a lot of
people on it really does. Although it would be a
kind of a coincidence that that he happened to exactly

(35:57):
revenge on the exact day that his career Jonathan in
his career kind of hit a low point. Well but
you know, but okay, so I will I will adject
to that right now because we're using legal terminology and
say that phrase, because you could say that his his
career was kind of imploding for the year after that
money went missing. If he had been killed four or

(36:22):
died four months prior to that. We were probably saying, well,
and obviously his career was on a downturn because he
had this other you know, I mean, these cases, it
always it wasn't according to Plant well as far as
his career, I want, the money wasn't this big problem.
But we'll talk about that in a minute. Yeah, it
could be that Smith and point to extra who are
on trial just then had ordered to hit on Luna

(36:43):
based on the dumb criminal reasoning that if the prosecutor
is killed and the prosecution goes away, isn't that how
it works? Yeah? Well, I mean, I guess I don't
have as much of a problem with it being involved
with that case as I think a lot of other
people do, because in my mind, you know, they're part
of gangs. It's not as though they were just these
two men who happened to be They were part of

(37:05):
an organization. And granted they knew and their lawyers knew
that they were about to get a really good plea deal,
but it could have looked from the outside as though
they either it was obvious that Warren had snitched and
they were like, well, these guys are going to snitch too,
and we have to get rid of the prosecution. For
some reason that makes sense, or it could have been
that it looked like to them that the way that

(37:27):
logic follows, right, it's not a good logic, but that
getting rid of the prosecutor means getting rid of the prosecution,
and that it looked like from the outside that these
guys were going to go away for a really long time,
maybe even one of them was going to have the
death penalty enforced on them, and and you know, to
some outside game member, it was worth killing this guy
to get rid of that. I mean, I don't think

(37:50):
the plea deal itself negates their threat or somebody that
they cared about them threat. Yeah, I would take a
remarkably dumb criminal thank But maybe they were. The thinking
process was like, well, if we whacked the prosecutor, then
all any other prosecutor will be afraid to take this case,
and so they'll just decide to plead it out. Or

(38:10):
criminals are often very dumb. We have seen that work.
I mean, if you think about all of the judge
killings that happened in South America for years and years,
who the guys who would prosecute, would prosecute. I mean this,
this thinking is out there and there is a set

(38:31):
logic to prove that sometimes it works. Yeah, I think
this is a little early in the process to try
to these guys exactly that action. But yeah, these guys
were not big enough for rich enough. They weren't Pablo Escobar,
you know. They well, in fairness, Pablo Escobar wasn't always
Pablo Escobar. He started out small too. Yeah, so they

(38:51):
could have been the next Pablo Escobar. Maybe they were
angle to be Pablo. Yeah, I hope not. We don't
need that here. But there was one up that I
have with the murder theory, which is that, as I
mentioned before, no evidence was found in the car to
suggest anything that anybody had been in it. Tire tracks
don't indicate a second vehicle to scene, so had the

(39:12):
killer get away you know, there were no footprints, like
saying the mud at the edge of the creek that
didn't belong to Jonathan Luna. Yeah, I guess I don't.
I also don't have as bigger problem with you because
there's so much time on accounting for in his night yea,
and particularly near the end of his night that we don't.
It's possible that he could have, you know, been meeting

(39:33):
somebody on the side of the road, gotten stabbed a
bunch of hopped back in his car or fallen into
his car or whatever, and then I'm like, oh, God,
been super disoriented and kind of run into a Yeah,
I mean, there is that possibility. I mean it, It
doesn't The evidence does indicate, like I said, that he
drove behind the building and then stopped the car, and

(39:55):
then the car goes again and goes into the creek.
So maybe somebody attacks him there at that spot where
he stopped, And yeah, I had the exact same thought
that the fight goes on. I still think the blood
in the back seat is the thing that makes me
think that he had to have been in the back seat,
because if it's his hands and then his neck and
all of that, they would have to be a lot

(40:17):
of blood soaking through the seat for it to reach
the back of the car. On the floorboard can kind
of go down between the back and the bottom. Yeah, okay,
But to me, it indicates more that he was in
the rear of the car for some reason. So then
whatever happens, whoever does it, walks away and then he
clambers his way into the driver's seat to try and

(40:41):
get away, but all he's able to do is is
we just said, knock it into gear, and the car
just idols forwards until it thunks off the edge and
it gets high centered and can't keep going, and he
gets out and stumbles into the creek or something like that. Yeah,
like that girl that wrecked in front of my house.
You know, it gets all drunkenly tried to figure out
what's going on, except he is literally dying and falls

(41:04):
off the edge of the creek. Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
But then there's there's the knife. So what happens is
that maybe the killer walks up to him, you know,
and where he's laying face down in the in the
mud in the water, and drops the knife next to him.
Maybe they didn't find it until six weeks later. It
could have been planted, or that could have also not
been the murder weapon. We don't know. It could have

(41:24):
been a random pen knife, could have been one that
he had in his breast pocket all the time and
just fell out as he fell, and it was neutruly
buoyant like hard drives, and so it floated the whole
It floated a while down stream. Yeah, speaking of hard
drives lost and found, this one did sort of happen
right around the time that rag Rick or yeah, yeah, mr.
There there were some a few people that did actually

(41:45):
draw some some between suggestions for the Lunar case came
in like wildfire after yeah, yeah, I know, um, well
so that's it for murder for now, but let's get
let's go onto something else, accident. This is a hypothesis
that law enforcement came up with, was which was given

(42:07):
his problems, especially with you know, the cash thing and
everything else. But he might have Lunar might have stage
his own abduction and employed to kind of gain sympathy
and maybe diverse of attention from his poor performance in
the trial that was going on that week. And also,
of course there's the whole money thing. And even if
he wasn't guilty of stealing the money, just for me
taking a polygraph, especially something that would be a kind

(42:29):
of career ending kind of thing, would be stressful enough,
even especially because it turns out polygraphs, no, they're not,
they're not at all. You know that All the measure
is how nervous you are, not how truthful you are.
So that's as it really isn't fair in a lot
of ways. Perhaps he takes a drive to clear his
head a little bit, hatches this idea of faking and inbduction,

(42:49):
gets out his pocket and I started sticking himself to
make it look like he'd been tortured, you know, by
some by his abductor. Yeah. Yeah, it drives aroun until
he finds a suitable place where he stabs himself more
deeply to make it look like a real attempted murder.
But unfortunately for him, he screwed up and severed his
caroated artery starts bleeding like a stuck pig loops. Didn't

(43:11):
mean to do that exactly. And of course, as you know,
if you cut the crodd artery, not only do you
bleed a lot, but your blood flow to your brain
is cut off, diverted well as I mean, you still
got the one on the other side, that's still but
still you know your capacity. That's not good, not good
at all. Yeah, he might not have been too clear

(43:32):
headed in his final moments. What that might explain why
the car winds up partially in the ditch and he
wants to face down. Maybe he thought would be a
good idea to get out and stumble into the ditch
for some reason. Again, his brain probably wasn't working a
capacity falls down listen, I can I can see where
this theory is going. This is much like what's his
name Anthony Leaner years ago when he said I was

(43:54):
hiking the Appalachian Trail because it was the first thing
that he thought of to try to get out of trouble.
And this could be the same thing. Ray Ray Greek
r Jonathan Luna is suddenly like, what do I do?
What do I do? I'm I'm gonna get attacked. I'm
just gonna get attacked. But it's just it's such a
screwy idea, and it took him so long to go

(44:17):
about it that it it seems him. It doesn't seem
like it's a real idea. If somebody does this, you
would think they would just like drive off into the
hood and cut themselves up and then dial nine one
one and say I've been attacked, because that's an easy
way to get out of it. This seems like a

(44:39):
long drive and a lot of stuff to do for
going and starting his sympathy campaign. Yeah, I mean, it
definitely would have made more sense to um, really, you know,
I mean, just go down and pick a fight with
some homeless guys and get beat up real bad and
then and then go like, just throw yourself down in
an alley where the pool you will find. I'm gonna say,

(45:01):
for a guy like Luna in Baltimore, it probably would
not be so hard to get real beat up. Probably
not actually, probably less painful than cutting yourself thirty six
times the hands. Yes, that's it's just it's illogical. Yeah,
this one is not impossible at all, but it's it's

(45:24):
a little bit of a stretch, I would say. Yeah, well,
so we don't murder with an accident, was left from suicide.
So we already talked a bit about some of the
stressors and Luna's life that might have made him want
to take his own life. Yeah again, we're talking possible
marriage issues, debt, legal jeopardy from the missing thirty eight

(45:45):
thousand bucks. His boss didn't like him, His job was
maybe in jeopardy also, and I haven't gotten into it
too deeply. Yeah, but let's talk about this now. Which
was his very bad day that day of December three
in court? Oh yeah, Okay, had a rough day as
I said, the trial at Smith and Point Extra began
December first, Monday, uh and from the very beginning, the

(46:09):
defense attorneys, well, they had found out something that had
been withheld from them by the prosecution, which is they
found out about Warren, the new Warren was going to
be a witness. And by the way, for folks who
aren't aware, especially those that don't live in this country,
the rule of law when you're on trial is that
the prosecution shares its information with the defense. Yeah, keep

(46:31):
things hidden. Yeah, this is called discovery, discovery process, and
they can't withhold stuff. That's a big no. Now. I
believe that defense can to a degree, but not not
the prosecution because they're the ones proving it. Yeah, so
they've got like, because everything they're gonna throw at them,
they have to show them ahead of time so they
can you know, defend against come up with an argument

(46:54):
against it. Right, So our boy is being a jerk
and going around and selling drugs and doing all of
the definite neighborhood possibly you know, there's some intimation that
he might have murdered as a person or two. Oh yeah, yeah,
well I don't think he did that. When he was
wearing the wire. And he also he also wasn't wearing
his ankle bracelet either. He took that off whenever he

(47:14):
felt like it. Again. You know, it's funny. I always
thought those things couldn't just be removed, but maybe it
was an early model. Apparently they can if you know
what you're doing. Yeah, But the fact that Warren had
broken the rules of his plea agreement and also the
fact that he was a paid informant that I mentioned
that he was paid, yeah I did. I Yeah, he
was getting paid for this. I mean all those things.
Actually those are relevant to the prosecutor that because they

(47:37):
go to his credibility as a prosecution witness. But the
defense had not been told about this stuff. Well, so
they made a stink about it from day one, and
as of day two, they actually were starting to raise
the possibility that this constituted actually a big cover up
by the FBI and the Department of Justice of Warren's

(47:59):
by behavior. The judge, the judge in this case, his
name was William Corals, feral judge, basically said that the
trial should continue because they still despite despite Warren's lack
of credibility as a witness, they still had all the tapes,
so there's still some evidence. So yeah, as we'll go
ahead with this stuff now that and and now of

(48:20):
course the jury has been informed as to Warren's transgressions
while he was an informant, and so I we'll just
continue and you know, you can bring it up an appeal, guys.
And so they went ahead with that on the morning
of December three. FBI agent Steve Skinner, remember him, he
tested Sinner Agent Skinner. Yeah, uh, and he lets slipped
at also did another thing about Warren Grace, which I

(48:42):
just mentioned he was a paid informant, which again this
is the first time that the defense found out about this.
You can imagine they hit the roof. They we're very
upset about not having been informed of this because I mean,
obviously the guy's getting paid, he's got an incenter to
just say whatever the prosecution wants, right, it damages his
credibility with a jury, or at least it should, right,
he becomes a yes man at that. Yeah. Yeah, So

(49:05):
at this point, of course, Skinner went on to to
actually admit to all of Warren's violations of this plea deal,
which they had turned a blind eye too. The defense
at this point made emotion for dismissal of charges based
on prosecutorial misconduct and again on this FBI prosecution cover
up of all these crimes of this guy really who
should not have been a forortant informant. He should have

(49:25):
been arrested and locked up. And Judge Coral has refused
to dismiss, but he did agree to schedule an investigation
into the way Luna and the FBI had handled their informant.
So this is not good news for Jonathan Luna and
also for if FBI and Skinner definitely could be a
career in any kind of thing. This investigation into the informant,

(49:47):
but also the fact that he had basically withheld evidence. Yeah,
and so it looks like he was gaming the system anyway. Yeah,
now it's it's it's it's prosecutorial miscon act. Really, And
so Jonathan lewn has started that week for just a
few days before with this easy slammed on drug case
and now two days later it's blowing up in his

(50:08):
face big time. And I'm not a lawyer, but I
I think that he could have probably been disbarred for
his conduct and withholding that information, it's possible. So we're
talking abouh losing his job and just a loss of livelihood.
You can't be a lawyer anymore, professional disgrace. And probably
a few other people in the attorney's office the FBI

(50:30):
were also feeling a little bit of heete. I'm sure
an agent Skinner was not happy about how this whole
thing was turning out. Yeah, he didn't want to, probably not,
And so this thing had to be had to be
made to go away. And this is why Jonathan Luna
approached the defense lawyers a little bit later over the
lunch break and offered them a plea deal, which would
solve everybody's problem, right, And but of course Pointdex, do

(50:53):
you remember, he's the guy who's want who's going to
be tried for murder. Yeah, he knew he was holding
a strong hand, and so he demanded to charge against
the point extra be dropped for murder and literally agreed
to this. But there was a hitch, which is that
federal law makes it illegal, essentially to plea bargain away
a case that is murder if it is drug related.

(51:14):
So so then couldn't have gone away. He couldn't actually
make the case go away that easy. Yeah, and so
he was kind of copying between a rock and a
hard place. And unfortunately for him, he couldn't really gloss
over the drug angle of this whole case, because he remember,
he was going to prosecute the murder, and he'd already
he'd already built his case. He'd already submitted briefs and

(51:36):
documents and all kinds of stuff documenting for the discovery process,
right the documenting that this murder was indeed very very
much drug related. So so he's got to square this
circle somehow. He's the judge. Judge Quarrels was informed of
this pending plea agreement, told Luna to have it ready
in the morning for him at nine durty the next day.

(51:57):
So he goes back to his office to do a
little creative writing. But like I said, it appears he
was having a little trouble squaring that circle, because when
he left his office later that night, the Smith agreement
was all done. The point Extra agreement was only about
half done. They were found the next day on his
computer by another lawyer in the office. And so Jonathan
Lane had perhaps was looking at professional ruin with the

(52:18):
way this this case was going. Now, could this possibility
of professional ruin and loss of life could have drive
a man to kill himself. I would say, yeah, sometimes
it does, sometimes it doesn't. Yeah, it just depends. I
mean a lot of it depends on all kinds of
stuff in varnerables. I mean, we don't know. But I
definitely I would say that that it was, you know,

(52:41):
definitely entirely possible that his very very bad day was
the thing that sort of tipped him over into the
into the whole suicide thing. And yeah, that had the
possibility of working at best Buy. It's not the worst
job ever, Probably not, I have Actually that's the worst job.
I don't know. I think, you know, the guys have

(53:02):
to go down and like dig through poop or probably
a bad job. Oh, sanitary or sanitation workers. Probably not
a very fun job. Yeah, they're paid really well, and
you gotta you gotta proved that's a union job. I think. Yeah,
I forget. I would rather dig poop all day than
stand at the in the door of Walmart. Give me

(53:24):
the poop. Yeah, let's go back to our case here.
And as for the plea agreements that they were found
on Luna's computer, as I said the next morning on
the fourth, another lawyer in the office quickly finished writing
the point dexter agreement delivered to the court. It was signed,
everybody lived happily ever after, except Jonathan Luna. Except Jonathan Luna.
Even if the plea deal was wow, a little hanky,

(53:45):
it was kind of pretty illegal. That kind of that
kind of puts a nail in the suicide theory because
if a second lawyer came in and had to finish
the plea deal in a couple of hours and it
was still up did and they didn't know about Luna
at that point, not yet. I don't believe they knew.

(54:05):
It wasn't as if they were motivated, oh well, let's
just get this take care of. Because the guy died,
then well that proves it the drive of oh god,
this whole thing is gonna fall apart. Maybe. I mean,
if he's as good as a lawyer as he appeared
to have been, I may have known that he could
push that through. I feel like sometimes all it takes

(54:25):
is a new set of eyes to come up with
the way to square that circle, the circle or whatever
it is. I mean, you know, sometimes it's it's it
can seem like you know, in his brain on top
of everything else. It's like, oh my god, there's no
way I can make this legal. I'm already in trouble
and kind of you know, in bad shape with things
maybe being illegal. If I push this through and it's

(54:47):
also illegal, it just adds to the pile of stuff
that people can bring against me. I don't know how
to figure this out. And then a new lawyer comes
in and it's like, I don't know, Yeah, this is
an easy solution in my brain, but other people would
never think of it. Well, and also it maybe if
these rumors are true that Luna's boss didn't like him
it was out to get him, then lunas boss obviously

(55:09):
would catch this for a reason, and it would be
the sort of thing that he could actually you know,
I don't know how much of a stink you want
to make this as embarrassing to your office, so it's
one of the things that get it would get Luna fired.
But the other guy, the Odlaire, probably talked to the
same boss and said, g boss, what do you want
to do and the boss probably said just make this
go away. Yeah. Well, and that's the thing is that
I know the boss's name is or something but um,

(55:35):
I mean he didn't like Lunas. So it may be
that Luna realized that even if the plea deal could
be completed and go through, the boss was going to
fire him. But at that point it's the boss fires him.
While it might be a bit of professional disgrace, it's
not professional ruined because he still would have his license
and theory and it's still able to practice law. Well,

(55:59):
unless the boss decided to say, make make a stink
out of the whole withholding of evidence and just say, look,
I'm going to refer to you for to whatever they
have they had their office affairs of some kind, like
the office and the office of Professional Responsibility of like
the FBI. Has I suspect yeah that if if you know,
you go, you go and say, yeah, I got fired

(56:22):
from my last job because I m withheld a lot
of evidence and wrote an illegal plea deal. That's going
to throw up some flax. You're gonna better, Just like
Willie mccraig. People who get fired from those kind of jobs,
they go into private practice because then you don't have
to tell anybody that I left working for the US government.

(56:43):
Because there it's a croc and a crooked, just bureaucracy
and putting away poor people. And I hated it, right
because I love the poor. That'll be five. Yeah, well
let's uh, but let's talk about let's go back to
the murder theory for a second. Um, so we already
talked a second back for us just a second, because

(57:05):
there's been a lot of the well I don't know
how much, but I know that people that have actually
been at least one book written about this case, a
lot of intimation is out there that perhaps, uh, it
might have been FBI et cetera, d J some people
in the government who murdered Luna for the simple reason that, yeah,
there was this this big explosive, scandalous cluster that had

(57:27):
come up in this trial, and it was going to
because of because of the uh, the defense had found
out about Warren Grace's conduct. And the fact of the
matter is that they basically protected a real menace to
society out there in the street at the instead of
arresting the guy. That's a little scandalous, and maybe some
people wanted to keep that covered up, and maybe Jonathan

(57:50):
Luna basically said, you know, guys, I can't I can't
cover this up in good conscious. I can't conscious, I
can't do that. And so they decided, well, okay, Jonathan,
and what we're gonna do is find somebody us to
write that write that agreement, and we're gonna whack you.
So so wait, so you have turned what you initially
stated as revisiting the murder theory into a giant government

(58:12):
cover up theory conspiracy. You've actually added your fourth theory. Well,
and the reason, well it's murder though, But the reason
I brought I just bring it up is I don't
want any of our listeners to start doing a little
reading on this. And it's like, wow, they totally missed
this whole government conspiracy thing, but well I picked up
on it. So if you look at that, I mean,

(58:33):
what's you know, I could see where if Luna was
not going to be a team player, they said, well,
what are we gonna do about this? And so they
they arrange are going to be killed and then they
sort of, you know, they pursue the investigation as good
as well as they can, and then they just start
leaking all this stuff to the press. As I mentioned,
the campaign kind of a smear campaign, and and and

(58:55):
then and then it's like, if they find any evidence
of any actual murder at the side, they just sort
of quietly, you know, ditch that and and they keep
leaking stuff and leaking stuff, and then finally he's just like,
I must have been suicide. That's the best we can
come up with. So that's that's kind of the theory
that's out there. But he was right, I mean, he
was actively writing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well he was, I think,

(59:21):
you know, but you know, you never know. He might
have had a change of heart. He had at least
one conversation on the phone was somebody that we don't
know who it was, so he might have had a
change of heart. But here's the here's the deal is
that if he had a change of heart and just said, look,
I just can't write this, then somebody could have said
some of somebody else from his office or whoever, could
have just said, Okay, here's what you do, Jonathan. We
just need you to keep your mouth shut. You don't

(59:42):
have to write it. All you gotta do go to
the man's room, go to the dirtiest toilet, drink a
cup of water out of that toilet, then go to
the er. And you know, because you're gonna be sick
as a dog and you've got incredible basically become indisposed,
and then somebody else will step been and write it
for you. We'll make the whole thing go away. Yeah,

(01:00:03):
that would have been an easier way driving around for
four or four and a half hours in the countryside,
stabbing and repeatedly with a knife, you know, and trying
to find a good suitable spot for you know, for
the final Kudi gras. Yeah, it does seem to me
that if the FBI were gonna kill him, Yeah, they
would have done a better job of it. You would
think it seems like a really random, weird murder, don't

(01:00:25):
you think. Yeah, I mean yeah, but it's just yea
also random and weird. Well, and here's the weird thing
is the guy's office was in freaking Baltimore for Christ's six.
I mean, it's one of those cities that alternates with
like Detroit, New Orleans and a few other places the
murder capital. Yeah, I don't know why you wouldn't just
take him out again to like one of the bad,
the worst neighborhoods and you know, shoot him once it

(01:00:47):
looked like a muck. Yeah, I still don't think that
it was an accident, and I still don't think it
was a suicide. No, I agree of the stuff that
I have read about, I mean, the cuts on his hands,
I'm not in agreement with that, but I can get
behind that maybe he did that to himself, though I

(01:01:07):
would think that if your hands are bleeding, you're you're
gonna start having a hard time hanging onto a knife
just because it's gonna be slippery. But let's just ignore
that the fact that there are some cuts on his
head and his his back that seemed to be hard
to get to, and his genitals, because again, no, no
dude that isn't into that kind of pleasure pain stuff

(01:01:29):
is just gonna willingly start playing with his junk with
a knife to try and to misdirected like that. Seems
like that's something someone does when they are does dudes
do when they are trying to make someone suffer? Yeah,
but no, it is if it happened, right, Because that's

(01:01:52):
the big problem with this case is that we don't
know if that's actually what happened. It could be that
there it was just a bunch of kind of shallow cuts,
you know, around and then oops, a slip and you
cut your core artery or you know, maybe do it unintentionally.
But there's no there's no real way to know right now.

(01:02:13):
Someday in the future ideally will will know because if
that is the case, absolutely, I mean even without that,
I do think it was probably a murder. But yeah,
I just don't know why the mortician would have any
incentive to lie about somebody slicing up his ghibli bits. Yeah. Again,
I don't know. This is this is one of the

(01:02:34):
irritating things is that law enforce was still keeping it open.
I'm not sure why. It might be that there is
something really hanging going on with law enforcements, so they're
keeping it open so they don't have to allow people
to look at their files. Yeah yeah, yeah, there there
is a lot of conspiracy stuff about that, you know.
And another odd thing too, is that in all the
leaks that have come out, all the statements that have

(01:02:54):
come out from law enforcements about all these things, that
all these reasons that he might have killed himself, they
never wants to mention the smith point extra trial. It's
a possible motivator for for a suicide. Interesting that, don't
you think maybe they're trying to expare them a little
professional embarrassment. I don't know, but it seems to me
that it's bad day in court was as strong a

(01:03:16):
motivator for suicide as most other things that were going
on his life, and they didn't even mention it. It's
kind of interesting or something. Yeah, I don't know. Uh
so I'm gonna come down on the side of suicide
just because I'm feeling, you know, I don't know, kind
of a strapper us today. Well, okay, that's it for

(01:03:36):
this week. If you've got any theories of your own, well,
you can contact us at our email, which is Thinking
Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com. Uh. We also have
a website, Thinking Sideways podcast dot com in case you
didn't know that, where you can find our episodes and
you can find links to go you know, by merchical

(01:03:56):
stuff like that. We have links to our Instagram and
our and all of our social of all our social media,
we've got links there. Yeah. So yes, go to the website,
and you can also download and listen to us on
iTunes where you can subscribe. You can give us a
rating and review high rating, great review, and you can
stream us of course from anywhere, and most importantly of all,

(01:04:16):
Stitcher Premium. Of course, we're on Facebook, where we have
a group in a page. Um like, the page joined
the group, don't friend the page. And uh we're also
on Twitter, where we are thinking sideways and we have
a subreddit thinking sideways of course. Oh yeah, and of
course we are on Instagram. We're we're just got posting
all kinds of fantastic stuff on much so much and

(01:04:38):
of course Twitter and where there's all kinds of bird
based things happening. Yeah, yeah, I know, silly twit. Oh god,
you're supposed to make funs about the mystery that we've covered. No,
wait till we get there. Yeah there, Okay, well I

(01:04:59):
think it is about that time. Time for the bad pounds, Devin,
you got any bad pounds? Yeah, Steve has what. I'm
sure it's been a stabbing good time. That wasn't that great? Yeah?
Oh come on, I'm a cut off. That was even
less great. All right, I got nothing. I'm not going
to make fun of some poor guys murder Sah, that's

(01:05:22):
just because I cut you out and you're upset about it. Yeah,
you're out class me, alright, see you guys next Week
by Guys. I gotta get into a knife
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