Thinking Sideways: Vatican Murders

In 1998 the commandant of the Vatican's Swiss Guards was murdered, along with his wife, by another Swiss Guard, in an apparent murder/suicide. Or was it?

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Thinking Sideways. I don't stories of things we simply don't
know the answer too. Hi there, and welcome to another
episode of Thinking Sideways. Yeah, hi, Hey, I'm I'm Joe,

(00:30):
joined by my co hosts and Steve, and we're going
to talk about a really, really weird mystery. Yeah, okay.
Today we're gonna talk about the Vatican mergers. Yeah. Yeah,
it's it's kind of convoluted. There's a list that's controversial.
Our mystery starts May four. It was a dark and

(00:53):
stormy night. You stole that right out of mystery novel,
didn't you. Yeah, you know, you know, the dark and
stormy night is considered like the one of the worst
phrase there, one of the worst sentences. Yeah. Yeah, so
I had to throw it in. I don't know how
stormy it was. I hear it was rainy, so I
just sort of just sort of bump that up license,

(01:15):
Yeah exactly. Now back to our mystery. It begins in
Vatican City. You probably all know where that place is.
If not paused and go do a google. A young
guy named Cedric Tournay entered the barracks of the Swiss Guards,
which is next to the Apostolic Palace. Or which is
where the Pope lives. I can already tell that I'm
gonna mispronounce literally all of these words. Oh yeah, there's some,

(01:37):
there's some, there's a feeling in here that's literally know.
There's one that I didn't even try to figure out
how to pronounce it. Yeah, okay, this one was tough.
I'll tell you right now. I told Joe earlier some
of these words and names that we that are in
this story, I'm really trying to figure out pronunciations. And
this is all based in Italy, so I'm watching Italian news,
I don't know Italian, trying to pick out somebody's name

(02:01):
to know how to pronounce it. It's harder than you
would think. Yeah, I, oh, well it's Italian. Never mind,
I'll be great at it. Sweets, that's your part Italian. Right.
So back to Cedric. He ended the barracks of the
Swiss Guards. Um. He had a gun with them, a
signal millimitter automatic, which actually wasn't unusual because he was
a lance corporal in the Swiss Guard and they actually

(02:23):
they actually do carry guns. I guess they didn't realize that.
I thought they just had those weird like halberds. Yeah,
they carry they have swords, halberd's, pistols and submachine guns. Odd.
That's the odd collection of weapons. Okay, Yeah, And I
I did not actually take the trouble to find this out,
but I might research it. Anyways. I'm curious about if
they if they actually get training and how to use

(02:44):
their swords and halberds. They do they do? They do?
They do get training and at that time their target
practice requirement it was one day a year. That's all
they had to practice. That's all. That's all I have.
I'm sorry. And the Swiss Guard for those of you
don't know what the Swiss Guard is, it's a small

(03:06):
arm the Swiss mercenaries who guard the Pope in the Vatican.
They have been for I think this is like the
five anniversary this year that they've served the Vatican. They
and as I've already said, what they're armed with. I
also want to tell you just a brief background, a
little biographical information about our cast of characters, which is
basically there's two main people here. Of course we've already

(03:28):
talked about Tornay he was twenty three and Swiss French,
the French speakers in Switzerland. Or maybe of the population. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
about that roughly, and so for obvious reasons, they are
they were a minority in the Swiss Guard, and Tournay
had been with a Swiss Guard for about three years
and recently been promoted to the lands corporals. So he

(03:50):
was doing okay, he was doing all right. Yeah. The
other protagonist share Colonel Oliwis Esterman, who will be meeting shortly.
It was the commandant of the Guard. He'd been on
the Guard. He was in joined in nineteen seventy seven,
left lived in South America and Argentina for two years,
and then came back in July nineteen eighty. He rejoined
the Swiss Guard as an officer and then he was

(04:12):
promoted a couple of times. Eventually he was appointed as
the acting commander of the Swiss Guard. And this is
the point of contention. Apparently there were people who did
not want to make his appointment permanent as a commandant
and so, and reportedly that they even included perhaps Pope
John Paul the Second Yeah, which is interesting because he

(04:32):
served as Jump Paul the second bodyguard for years and
he traveled all over the world with him and John
Paul spoke highly of him, so it's a bit odd.
So I'm not entirely sure that that's true or not.
This Vatican stuff, it's so tortured and convoluted, I mean,
who can tell. And also, by the way, Esterman was
Swiss German, meaning that he was among the majority of

(04:53):
Swiss people who speak German, which also, by the way,
is not like regular world German, and it's a totally
different dialect. So it is a big language barrier between
the Swiss French and the switch Swiss German, which leads
to problems in the Swiss Guard. Yeah. Well, and only
you have to be eighteen and natively born Swiss to

(05:14):
be in a Swiss Guard, and there was like eighteen
to thirty, but it's something I can't remember. The right.
You have to be a Hapger guy, and you have
to have served in the military. I'd have to be
a Catholic. You have to be at least five ft
eight inches tall, Is that true? Yeah? Actually, have to
be more precise five ft eight and a half inches tall.
Is that true? That's true? Yeah, you can't be any shorter. Yeah.

(05:38):
I guess they want the guards to be tall and
imposing people. I guess I could never be a Swiss Guard.
Then you're about the Yeah, plus you're not a male
and I'm not. Are you Catholic? No Swiss? You're almost there,
I'm halfway. Yeah, So there is this whole language barrier

(05:59):
and then cultural differences in the Guard was lead us
to a little bit of tension. I hear, yeah, well
that's that's the problem is I was doing a bunch
of research on this and you said, it's percent of
the Swiss or French Swiss? Is that right? Roughly? You know?
Actually I just saw the numbers on on wiki and
then compared to the overall, Well that that sounds very
con was the things that I've didn't use a calculator.

(06:21):
I just that are rough out in my mind. But
the point, the point is is that when the guys
who are Swiss French join the Swiss Guard and they
come in the everybody in the Swiss Guard speak Swiss German,
so they don't even know the language to start with.

(06:42):
So they're already at a disadvantage, which is because they
learned German in school. But it's more standards. Yeah, yeah,
that's exactly the problem. And that's so it's these guys
are just they're they're they're already a peg down from
day one. Yeah. So Tornell went to the apartment of
Luis Esterman and he was led in by Estterman's wife.

(07:02):
His name was Gladys Mazo Romero. She was Venezualan. By
the way, of course she was. Of course she's been
an actress or model. I heard she used to be
a model. Yeah, it was a model. Yeah, he was
led in by the wife. He pulled out his gun,
shot Esterman twice, killing him, and then shot Gladys Romero twice,
also killing her. And and I might say, by the

(07:23):
way too, there's actually no no actual evidence that he
shot Esterman first and the wife's second. There actually isn't.
That was pointed out by by a pathologist, actually not,
if not one of the Vatican pathologists. Esserman was in
a chair and fell out of the chair after being shot.
So it's presumed that he was shot first because if

(07:43):
his wife had been shot first, he just stood up
and started, you know, moving, moving where, and so he
wouldn't have been slumped and fallen out of a chair
unless he shot the wife and was sitting. And listen,
I'm sure there is yeah, I mean it could have
been you know, you could have gone bing bing bing bang,
he could have shot estimate. Yeah, wife wants Yeah, let's

(08:06):
talk about this in theories maybe, yeah, we will. Yeah. Uh.
Then after that he dropped to his knees, put the
gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. That escalated
real quickly. I know, I know. And it's kind of
a sad thing actually, But anyway, so we have a
murder suicide thing going on here. But yeah, that's the question.
Some people say not there are a lot of theories.
Some people say it was actually a triple murder. Well

(08:29):
it is the Vatican, committed by dark forces within the Vatican.
So we'll talk about all those theories a little bit
later on. Yeah, it's pretty much. It's pretty muddy. Yeah
it is. And frankly, there's a little disinformation in there
about some things like the Masons and stuff like that.
This is going to be the best episode. Yeah, if
you love the Mason stuff, I do. So what was

(08:51):
his motive? Good question? Yeah, Well apparently that you know,
as you know that the French, the French and the
German guys and the Swiss cards apparently have a you know,
it was a little thing there, like a murdery thing
or just like now you take that to have murders
more often if that were yeah, or fights or scuffles. Yeah, yeah,
but but apparently the German speakers do dominate the Swiss Guard.

(09:15):
Apparently there was there was talk that Tornay resented that
and resented the way the Guard was run. Apparently his
relationship with Esterman was strained. Accorded to many accounts, there
was a guy who wrote a book about this British
journalist named John Feline, and he talked to a lot
of X cards and documented that Esteman did not like Tornay. No,

(09:38):
he seemed to he had something out for It was
really weird specifically. Yeah, yeah, he seemed to single him out,
which I never understood what the basis of that was,
other than some disciplinary issues that are called out. Sometimes
you just don't like a dude. Yeah, I know that happens, um,

(09:58):
but but some of the some of it was ex
guard friends said that, you know, as far as disciplinary issues,
there were a few, but no worse than anybody else.
Torn And and some of the other French speaking guards,
as they were in the minority, they often complain of
harassment by the German speaking, the component of the Swiss Guards,
and especially Esterman. It's a next guard who was a friend.

(10:20):
Attorney said, and I'm gonna quote here, Esterman couldn't stand
having French speakers around. He'd always tell us you Swiss,
French have no place in the Swiss Guard. There was
no room for you here. So apparently it was kind
of bigot. Yeah, yeah, Esterman Tornay were not best buds.
But was that enough to cause murder? That's that's especially
after three years, I guess you kind of would kind

(10:42):
of build up. I generally think that sort of thing
comes to a head earlier than that. Three years is
a long time to kind of stick it out. But well,
I think that he might have. He might have stuck
it out because at that usually typically after three years
of service in Swiss Guards, you're awarded a medal which
is hang on, a Bennamarenti medal, which is this this

(11:04):
cool medal that the Pope awards to people who have
done service to the Catholic Church for three years. Yeah,
after three years, typically you get this metal. And so
he might have decided to stick it after three years,
because you know, I got the medal and the medal
would probably look good in your resume. I was gonna say,
I think the minimum tours also three years. I think

(11:24):
there's that too. Well, it's it's the accept I wouldn't
say the minimum tour. The accepted you're an okay individual
for having been in the Swiss Guard is to be
able to hang on for three years. Oh, I guess, yeah,
I mean sure, but if you're going to murder somebody,
why wait three years, because it's not like you're going
to get your medal or your commendation and then if
you're going to kill anyways, Yeah, I'm sorry, keep talking

(11:48):
about this story. Well, let's go back to our mystery.
Within minutes of the murders. That the murders, by the way,
we're discovered. The bodies were discovered by a nun who
lived in the apartment next door, who heard a loud
noise and so she came and check. Found some days
and then uh sent out the alarm. The Vatican sealed
off the apartment. No one was allowed near the scene
of the crime, including Italian police. Technically, the Vatican is

(12:10):
an independent state and they have their own police force. Yeah,
they don't have to let the Italian police in no, no,
not at all, within three hours. This is about The
bodies were discovered at an i PM. I forgot to
mention that about midnight, in about three hours, and there
had not yet been an autopsy, of course. A Vatican
spokesman named Joaquin Navarro Valls issues a statement on behalf

(12:32):
of the Vatican which I'll quote here quote. The captain
commander of the Bontifical Swiss Guard, Captain Alouis Estruman, was
found dead in his home together with his wife gladys
Maisa Romero and Vice Corporal Cedric Tournay. The bodies were
discovered shortly after an IPM by a neighbor from the
apartment next door. It was attracted by loud noises. From
a first investigation, it is possible to affirm that all

(12:55):
three were killed by a firearm. Under the body of
the vice corporal, his regulation weapon was found. The information
which has emerged up to this point allows for the
theory of a quote fit of badness unquote by Vice
Corporal Tournay unquote. That sounds like the sort of thing
that people were diagnosed with madness. It's a super quick diet,

(13:18):
you know. We know what's happened three hours later, we
figured it all out, Like that's such a quick Yeah, yeah,
I know, I know, it really is. It might be
that they talked to some of some of the people
who some of the Swiss officers, and they said that
there was bad blood between those two. Perhaps that was it.
But the quick leap to leap to judgment, it's kind
of hoted the Vatican ever since because people are there

(13:41):
accused of going out and rendering judgment without knowing the facts.
Or maybe they already knew too much. Yeah, maybe they
know more than it let on and they're leaking. They
were giving their official story to facts. Yeah that's supposed
to mean. Yeah, yeah. About twenty four hours after the murder,
and other Vatican spokesman said that Tornay was quote an

(14:02):
individual suff suffering from the psychological disorder of paranoia unquote.
Although he had never met Tornay and there's no none
of his none of his ex guard friends or co workers,
whatever you want to call him, ever said that he
was paranoid. Yeah. No, he was angry, but not paranoid. Yeah, well,
he probably had good reason to be angry. Another claim
that somebody put out was that Tornay was high on

(14:25):
marijuana at the time of the You know, I've been
saying this a lot lately, but that's one of the
stupidest things I've ever heard in my entire life, that
that because he was high he did the killing pot.
I'm sorry, but every pot head that I've ever known
doesn't get off the couch. He don't have the motivation
to go on somebody down. If you have the motivation,

(14:47):
the paranoia isn't like, oh, I better kill this person,
because okay, I can't speak for everybody, right, but my
sense is that the paranoia that comes with pot is like,
oh my god, everybody's looking at me. Everything is going wrong.
It's not oh, I know I can get away with
murder right now. Yeah, that's the dumbest thing. That's a
completely different drug. And it was I think it was

(15:08):
trace amounts were found in his his blood stream. Had
to do be like at some point, yeah, yeah, And
supposedly when they searched his room they found a couple
of what did they marijuana? Cigarette? They were little joints
in a drawer. But god knows, he might have once

(15:30):
a you know, a month or so, couldn't sleep and
took a hit of pot. And that was it. I mean,
but it doesn't. That doesn't drive you to kill somebody
does know, Steve, I haven't ever heard of red madness. Okay,
Away from pot back to our mystery. The Vatican performed
autopsies bodies, uh, and they were sworn to secretly and

(15:54):
supposedly kept no written notes. Yeah, I find that hard
to believe. The Vatican documents every thing. Yeah, they have
huge proves of documents. Yeah, but this is out there
if you read, if you go out and look this
mystery up, that's what they all said. They kept no notes,
And I can find that impossible to believe. Literally impossible.
So I read Fourny's book The City of Secrets or

(16:18):
Fullane Sorry I don't know four. I don't know who
fourney is, but Fullane's book and sorry, he's the author
that wrote City of Secrets that Joe was talking about,
because he did a lot of the research on this,
And when I was reading it, I didn't I swear
I never saw they never kept a record. I think

(16:40):
it was they were sworn to secrecy and those documents
were sealed away. Vatican hung on to him, but they
just don't talk about it. Nobody ever knows there's not
much point in doing on autopsy without taking notes. Yeah,
I know. By the way, the book City of Secrets
by John Fullane, a British journalist, is available on audible.
Doctor Chess kidding, but actually I wanted to mention it

(17:04):
now anyway, because I'm going to quote some people a
little later on. And most of the quotes that I've
I've got about this mystery are from that book. He
seems to have done the authority hated work because he
did a ton of legwork. He did, and and so
a lot of the people who spoke to him are there.
The quotes that I got from from those people I

(17:24):
got out of his book. So so what did the
Vatican corners is that? Who does? That's what they find
They that was consistent with murder suicide with all the
bullet holes and stuff. Yeah. They also found that Tornay
had a brain tumor or a small lesion on his
frontal lobe. Yeah, and their theory is that his behavior

(17:46):
was either caused by the tumor or by medication that
he was taking for the tumor. I think this would
be this would have been a really great time for
me to reach out to our experts about and yeah,
if it causes behavior like that, but it probably in
the frontal lobe, is there's that's that's where a lot
of your behavior is centered in your brain, you know.
But it would happen. They found it really small, almost

(18:07):
like a cyst, and it's like, I don't think it
was something. Yeah it wasn't, but also that it seems
like the behavior would have been around it wasn't like
that seems like the sort of thing. And again this
is total conjecture. I have no idea, but it seems
like that would be an escalating thing, right, you would
be having behavior problems as a trend, yeah, and not
as you're totally cool and then suddenly you go shoot

(18:28):
a couple of people. You don't. Yeah, that's just in
my impression. But again I think you're right. I think that,
you know, it starts out small and as a tour
gets bigger and bigger, you know, you get more weird.
Nobody reported that any of that. The Vatican also noted
that he had recently broken up with his Roman girlfriend
oh No, and that he had recently received a reprimand

(18:48):
from Estruman for staying out all night and not coming
back to the Vatican. Apparently, you know, for the support
Swiss card to do that, you have to get permission,
and didn't know with that permission, so it's kind of
like being a wall so a letter of reprimand yeah,
they I think it's one level. One level of rank,
you're able to be out till midnight. The next level
you're able to be up till one o'clock in the morning.

(19:11):
I think it's how it. Basically, every the curfew is
one am. Yeah, and then everybody has to be in. Yes,
that makes sense, you're technically out of the country. Yeah,
it's true. And you are in the military. You really
are still be kind of kind of suck to be
in Rome and you know, have to be have a curfew. Yeah,
that's true. Yeah, and then he was twenty three probably

(19:33):
apparently from everything I've heard, a high spirited lad. Yeah,
I'd never bet. I want to go. I was recently there.
It's awesome. Yeah, I need a guy. I'd love to
go to the Vatican. This podcast is really making it
easy for me to travel all the time. O. Yeah,
what's funding my trips to Roman? That would make so
much money off this? Yeah. Oh, back to the Vatican.

(19:53):
They s yeah, they after when they released their theory
about what about the brain tumor and all that. They
also really really used a letter because he wrote a
letter right before he committed this act and handed it
over to one of his ex one of his guard buddies,
asking this guy to get it to his mother, and
apparently that guy turned it over to the Vatican, and

(20:13):
it was a final letter to his mother which hadn't
been mailed. And then mother, by the way, says it's
a forgery. Yeah, but there'll be more on the letter
in a minute. But the statement said that were made
behavioral changes, paranoia, drug use really conflict with what Torney's
fellow guards had to say about him. He had been
in there for three years, and he was he had
been recently promoted. He was he had a responsible position.

(20:35):
He was in charge of all the guards deployed in
the Apostolic Palace, which is where the Pope was, as
I mentioned earlier, So I mean that's you know, that's
a responsible position, right, uh, and also monitor Saint Saint
Ann's Gate, which is one of the main entry points
in the Vatican. And I've got quotes from his fellow
guards which I won't I won't repeat them all. But
apparently they thought he was a great guy. Yeah. I

(20:57):
I didn't hear and I didn't see anything him other
Swiss guard that there was anything bad about the guy, yeah,
Or that he was going around the bend. Yeah, nobody
noticed anything like that. So after they had their services
for both the instruments and Tornay, and then after that,
Tornay's body was flown back to Switzerland for another funeral there,

(21:19):
of course, but his mother, whose name is Muguette Bade
stole the body. She arranged to have the body taken
from a Swiss morgue. So she had she hired or
or maybe you got actually I don't know she paid
him or not. I love it. But professor of forensic
medicine named Dr Thomas Krompecker did a second autopsy, and

(21:43):
based on his conclusion, Tornay's mother hired two French lawyers.
I won't bother naming them because I'll probably be pronounced
their names and the press. The lawyers had a press
comperence released a seventy page report that disputed the Vatican's
version and the murder and the autopsy reports, and demanded
a new investigation. So Here's what the autopsy found the

(22:05):
second autopsy. First of all, Tornay Service pistol used nine
millimeter bullets, but the exit wound in his skull measured
seven millimeters. The mystery deepens. Next, they said that he
had a fracture of the cranium, which was not on
the bullet's trajectory. Yeah, and they said, Third, his lungs

(22:26):
contained a large amount of blood and saliva, which could
not have been caused by his suicide. And I'm not
a medical expert, so I really couldn't tell you that,
but they say it could have. Also, it could have
been caused by internal bleeding. Dude blows on the head
before he died. Maybe. Also, they found in the second
autopsy no tumor on his brain. Of course I don't know.
Maybe the Vatican guys removed the tumor. And I was

(22:48):
about to say, if the Vatican has done its autopsy
and they've been slicing through his brain, it is entirely
possible that on the second autopsy, if it is something
as small as we seem to believe it is, you
wouldn't You might not see it. They might have cut
through it, So then it's not obvious or removed it.

(23:10):
I don't know. I'm not you know, I don't do
that kind of work, But I'm just I'm trying to
think of what it would be like for somebody to
come in and have to do a second examination. I
guess for me, the lack of tumor is the least
startling thing there. You know. It's like, Okay, people lie
about tumors or it was a legion, it wasn't a tumor,
you know whatever. If they were cutting up his brain, sure, okay,

(23:36):
maybe they cut off the tumor, fine. Whatever. This other
stuff though, so like blood and saliva and lungs, a
fracture in your skull, seven millimeter exit wounds. Yeah, some
of that stuff suggests like violence, yeah, yeah, like the
beating or somebody over the head. Yeah. Is there more stuff? Yeah.

(24:00):
They also said his front teeth were broken off gone
had been forced into his mouth. That's suspicious. Yeah. And
then last of all, the final letter to his mother,
according to his mother, is a forgery. Because well I'll
get into that more a little bit later on, but
apparently he just wasn't his style what it wasn't written

(24:20):
to stuff. So anyway, I talked about the metal the
Benamarenti Medal, which he was supposedly, yeah, supposedly it's a good,
good metal, right, Yeah, yeah, it's an honored to get it. Well, no,
I think that's the translation would be Benny okay, okay,
all right, But shortly before the ceremony and this is

(24:44):
like two days before, Yeah, he found out he wasn't
going to get the metal was second time. Yeah, he
wasn't even informed about it by anybody. He just saw
a list of the recipients and his name wasn't on it.
So was that was that? Oliways Esterman striking again? Well,
I so he didn't get it the first year. He

(25:04):
thought he was going to get it the year prior,
but he was to his service time wasn't was she
was short? He was, Yeah, he hadn't hit the exact
three market. I think he missed it by like two months.
So he knew he was going to get it the
second time because he was a good dude. Yeah. And
but yeah, I mean I know that there's stuff that

(25:25):
you know that that Esterman really didn't like him because
the disciplinary reasons and that he was I'm almost positive
I remember reading something about Esterman being one of the
key figures in the decision for him not to get it. Yeah,
which makes sense. I mean, obviously he as a head
of the Swiss Guard, he would have a lot of

(25:47):
a lot of in that respect. Yeah, yeah, j yeah,
what a jerk. But the some of some have said
that the denial of the medal was a straw that
broke the camel's back, and it was. It was a
couple of days before the murder suicide death situation. That
was a couple of days before. Yeah, I think the

(26:07):
it was it was now as he found out the
day of the day of the murder suicide, he found
out he was just two days before, two days before.
He had found out that day. Yeah, and he had
already booked tickets for his family to come and everything. Yeah,
he was ready to have I think he even booked
some place to have dinner with everybody. Yeah, like he
totally he totally expected this to happen. Yeah. It was

(26:29):
a real, real poke in the eye with a sharp stick,
let's face it. Yeah, so it sounds pretty awful. You know.
I gotta say, you know, I feel bad for torn.
You know, he seemed like a good guy. It's uh,
I really just seemed like he was kind of a
bad position. But anyway, so when he found that out,
he went back to the barracks who wrote the letter
to his mother and handed it over to a friend

(26:49):
and then grabbed his gun and had a headed to
Estman's apartment. And we know, we know what happened there.
Actually we don't know. Yeah, you get by that. Tornay's
mother again claims that the letter that he wrote is
a forgery. For one thing, the date it was was
four point oh five point nine eighth that which in

(27:12):
you know, the Europeans they do they do day, month, year,
whereas we do month a year. Just in case you
don't know that, she said, he always spelled out the months,
so he should have put he should have written May
four or four May. Actually yeah. Um. He refers to her,
his sister Melinda, by her name Melinda instead of the

(27:33):
nickname which he always used for her, which was Dot.
He calls the Pope the Pope in this letter, but
he always used the term holy Father. And he also
said when one of the last lines of the letter
quote tell Melinda, Sarah and Papa that I love you
and all that stuff, it was that's not a direct
quote but he didn't mention his two stepbrothers, who also

(27:57):
was very close to Dade. Was she able to produce
old letters that backed up her claims of his diversions
of writing style? Was that, do you know? You know,
I don't know. That's a good question. I all I
know is just some quotes from her, from her lawyers
and from a few other people. I was, you know,
I keep letters. I have a couple of friends that

(28:17):
the way that, because I'm old bashioned, apparently the way
we talk is we actually write letters to each other
and I keep those. And I certainly would keep correspondence
from a son or a significant other things like that.
So it seems like it would have been a fairly
simple thing for her to say, wait, but actually look, yeah,
I have a feeling that that is probably in that

(28:37):
seventy five page document that our lawyers put out. Yeah,
I'll bet you that's where that evidence is, and that's
why we haven't seen it. It's really it's kind of
frustrating and annoying that that that's nowhere on the internet.
I mean, everything should be on the internet. I can't
find I couldn't find that anywhere. Yeah, yeah, she should
really what she really needs to do is and this
is one of the things that makes me wonder just

(28:59):
a little bit it about her story because she's got
got this autopsy report, the evidence of the letters knowledge,
she should be able to put together like a book
and all that stuff and release all this to the public.
But she's not doing that. She's got these lawyers out
there making statements. How old is she though, I don't
know she's I would guess at the time would have
to be at least maybe mid to late fifties, and

(29:23):
she's been on a number of documentaries and stuff like that. Yeah,
that's the sort of time that you pull that stuff
out if you have it. Yeah, I think so. Looguet
wrote to the Pope, that's Pope John Paul the Second
twice asking for another investigation, questioning the Vatican's version of
his death. Tourney's death got no answer, although, unfairness, the

(29:45):
Pope at this point in his life was pretty he
was pretty old and sick. I think he had parkinstones
also did, yeah, and so, and of course he never
really recovered from being shot by that Turkish guy. Yeah, yeah,
he never Yeah, that really the number on it. It
really did. Yeah, and so will do. Yeah, yeah, it's

(30:06):
not like it's not like a TV. You know, it's
a fleshy. I know, it's it's it's tough on it.
She also didn't She also claimed that the Vatican said
she couldn't come to the funeral in realme yeah yeah,
and said that they tried to discourage her to come.
They said that his body was his body was in

(30:27):
really bad shape and his head had been torn off.
This is what she says. I can't get any documentations.
And and also they said that all the hotels in
Rome were full. That's not true, but yeah, yeah, so
that's what she says. Well, and you know, this is
probably a good time to bring something up, which is
everything except for that one official statement from the Vatican.

(30:49):
He's from everybody outside, he said. She said the Vatican
went on full lockdown on this. I mean they release
their statements and not a word was said. Everybody in
the Vatican was told, especially the Swiss Guard, you don't
say a word about this. If you do your gun,

(31:12):
you're out of here. Your job is over. But that's
why the this John Flane when he wrote his book,
he was only able to get X guards to talk
to him. Yeah, so yeah, yeah, he would he would
be he would get interviews with people under illusions of
I think he was just he was saying he was
going to write a book about the Swiss Guard itself,

(31:35):
nothing about the deaths, and and every time he would
start to turn the conversation to the set of murders,
everybody just went full lockdown. They just shut him out. No,
not talking about that. Okay, hey we're done. I gotta go,
I gotta get I gotta get back by and people
literally would run away. I mean, that's how emphatic they
were of following their orders. Well, I mean, you do.

(31:59):
Being at the Vatican is like being in the military
Swiss Guard, notwithstanding, I think the entire organization it's so
locked down. So nit yeah, I get together. Yeah. I
think that they might have benefited from being a little
more open, like maybe turning the body over to an

(32:19):
Italian pathologist who who did the work and stuff. Have
some forensic scientists come in and see the murder scene
or whatever, I'm sorry, the crime scene to the crime
scene and do it, you know, are participate in the
autopsy and all that stuff, And maybe some of these
questions would have been answered, but yeah, there's there's there's
not a single photo that anybody has seen of the
crime scene. There's all kinds of these reenactments. Yeah apparently. Yeah,

(32:42):
that's what I heard, is that the photos that just
sort of disappeared along with a little bit of evidence.
Well hindsight. Yeah, you try and downplay a thing that
happened that's kind of tragic in your community, and it
backfires and everybody says you're trying to hide something. Yeah. Yeah.
And also the Vaticans does have its own least force,
but they don't deal with murders very often now, not

(33:04):
at all. So I think the last time there was
a murder at the Vatican was like three hundred years
prior something short of the stories in Dan Brown's books.
But unless you unless you buy the stories about Pope
John Paul, the first you've heard about that, right, Yeah
he was he was in office for just a matter
of weeks, but dead. Yeah, that obviously kicked off. Who

(33:24):
knows when, might cover that one one of these days,
But that kicked off just myriad conspiracy theories. So other
stuff happened, right, The mom claimed other things as well. Yeah, Yeah,
besides that, they sent an Onwood to Switzerland to meet
with her, and she said here and I quote this
is again from John Filane's book It's a City of Secrets,

(33:46):
um available in audible quote. He wanted to find out
how much I knew and what I planned to do
about it. He gave me a rosary, but he also
threatened me in the name of his superiors, telling me
I should stop asking about Tourney's death and think of
my surviving children. He said that he was sure I
wouldn't want anything bad to happen to them. That's a threat,
isn't it. Unquote sounds like a threat. Sounds like a threat.

(34:09):
But again, we don't have any documentation. This is just
her talking, so right, well, I feel the Vatican officials,
the envoy would be very careful to not have documentation
of something like that, right, If you're going to say
something like that, you're not going to be like, oh, also,
the court reporter sitting right here, right, Yeah, Well, she's
also a grieving mother, and I'm not discounting what she's saying,

(34:31):
but her emotional state kind of has to be taken
into consideration. Absolutely, And I think it's hard when you're
grieving and you're sad. It's hard to keep respective. Well,
I think you have to. You have to temper what
people say they heard. You know, if somebody sits down
and says, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry for your loss,

(34:53):
and you've decided that they're the bad guy, it's going
to sound really sarcastic and awful or something. You know,
things like that always need to be taken into considerations.
So the words of a grieving mother I think should
often be taken with a grain of salt. But I
do think she also has some good points. Yeah, there
was really I don't think any real reason for the
Vatican the sense somebody just threatened her because they were

(35:15):
in control of the whole situation. There was nothing she
could do to them, so she proposed no threat, so
that it's really pointless to trying to threaten her. Yeah.
So that's why I think that, like you say, she
may be misinterpreted things said. I don't think that they
actually sent somebody a switcherland just to I think, you know,
I think that it's totally plausible that she she heard
somebody sitting down and saying, you have other children, think

(35:38):
about them, care for them as a threat. Yeah, exactly.
Catholics are into family. Still have you still have other children?
You know? Hey, you know the Italian Catholics in particular,
are they're in the family. If you lose somebody, you
should grieve that, you should be sad about that, but
also think about your family that still lives. Absolutely, they're

(35:59):
important too. That's my experience with the Roman Catholics. And
I do actually have experienced. Yeah, yeah, I got a
whole Catholic background myself. But I'll talk about that some
at the time. What some other things that she said
that this is Mougette again. Tony's mother also said that
a year before he died, Torney told her that he

(36:19):
and two of the Swiss cards were investigating Opus Day,
about Opus Day, these the sinister organizations, the shadowy sinisters.
Not really, but I explain what that is because I
really I had a hard time figuring this one out.
Are you gonna or should we just tell him to
google it? Yeah? Yeah, I can google it. I mean,
my my understanding of Opus Day is that it's it's
an organization. It's almost like a church in the sense,

(36:42):
but it's not geographically centered on anything. It's not not
in a town or anything like that, but there is
there's a card in a little bishop and all that stuff.
I guess they call it a one of the prelature. Um. Yeah,
that's that's the right word. I mean, yeah, basically, I
think it's Gosh, it's a group that holds to a

(37:02):
slightly different theological view of the teachings of the Bible
or Christ or marry all of that. I mean, because
I believe Opus Date there they're really kind of conservative
and they think that some things that are done in
the church are a little too liberal, and they're trying
to control or correct that. That's that's what I've I've

(37:27):
come to understand whether that's right or not, That's why
I've understood it. According to Wikipedia, which I've pulled up
on my phone, Opus Day is an institution of the
Roman Catholic Church I am quoting sorry that teaches that
everyone is called to holiness and that ordinary life is
the path to sanctity. The majority of the membership are

(37:48):
lay people with secular priests, under the governance of a
bishop elected by specific members that are appointed by the
Pope Um Opus Day. In case you didn't realize this,
this is something that I know because I took Latin
is Latin for the work of God, and the organization
is often referred to by the members and supporters as

(38:09):
the work the work. Okay, there's lots of other stuff
going on there, but I think that's probably a pretty
good yea quick overview. Yeah, so anyway, there, you know,
up this stay there, there's a lot of you if
you look on the web, there's a lot of conspiracy
rainage stuff about this day that they're claiming they're much
more sinister than I than they appear to be, And
who knows, maybe they are really, but they don't appear

(38:31):
to me to actually be a sinister organization. I think
there's something to be said for a Roman Catholic tradition
that employees lay people and secular people as they're kind
of leadership. I don't know secular secular people, so I
mean that's what Wikipeda said. It was it said that
they were secular, and again, you know it's Wikipeda, so

(38:53):
it could be wrong. But yeah, but if if within
a tradition, if you're saying these non religious white right unquote,
that's what secular means, non religious people are in places
of power within a Roman Catholic tradition. That's weird. That
doesn't make any sense at all. Wikipedia probably Yeah, yeah, sentimental,

(39:14):
sentimental letter. I did also just check one of our
expert emails, and you were right about the what was
it prelature. It's a personal prelature is personal. Yeah, it's
what Opus Day is. Yeah, so you know, I mean,
if yeah, people want to learn more about it, google it,
because it really is. It's really dense. It's one of

(39:36):
the things I know we reached out for some help with. Um.
It's just it's really really complex, and I think that
I think that white people call it sinisters because they're
not open. Everybody wants everything to be transparent today and
they are not transparent. Yeah that's hard. Yeah, but yeah,

(39:56):
so you're naturally going to get to just like the Vatican.
You're gonna get some dispire r theories because the Vatican
is like just like that and it's not really that open. Yeah.
But speaking of up his Opus Day, I am. I
have another quote from City of Secrets, which is from
an unnamed Vatican monseigneur, and the quote is this quote.

(40:17):
There's one common thread running through this, and it's the
Opus Day movement. The instruments were both close to it.
Navarro valves as a member Navarrow remember he was a
senior Vatican spokesman. They gave that statement three hours after
back to the quote, and he was very fast and
getting to the scene of the crime when he was alerted.
And the Holy Father's Shadowez, so it's somebody's name. I

(40:47):
think it's yeah, yeah, And the Holy Father's Shadows is
said to be supportive of Open's Day. Given the movements
taste for secrecy, all the people are going to follow
the principle that the less said, the better. Yeah, I
don't know. That's I don't know. That doesn't really mean much,
but I just had to throw that in. So Opus

(41:09):
Day figures a lot in the theories around this thing.
There have been a lot of that. And again, I
know we just said this before, but it's it's the
fact that that nobody's talking. Yeah, that's and that's my
hardest thing before we get into the theory section. That's
the one thing that I have with this story that's
so top is so much of what we have it's hearsay.

(41:31):
So it's it's really difficult to build a firm case
on hearsay. I know, I know that's so, that's it.
I mean, there's very little solid about this whole thing,
and it's a fun little mystery. Oh absolutely, it's intriguing
it to be. I mean I when I got the
book for cram Andy sakes, Yeah, we might have to
go to the Vatican and really solve this one. Well.
For as an interesting aside, apparently the the Opus Day

(41:54):
faction of Roman Catholicism, that's what in the Dan Brown
novel is the guy who's like whipping himself the soft mall. Yeah, yeah,
that's that's apparently a big part of the controversy surrounding
open you know, the the Dan Brown stuff does like

(42:18):
feed into that. And I think that probably I didn't
read the book, but City of Secrets, I bet yeah,
a little bit feeds into that. Any kind of Opus
Day conspiracy theory, they're going to talk about stuff like that, Yeah,
and that's kind of stuff weird people out. Although I
don't think that many people actually flagelights themselves up to day,
I think I think they have more typically. The more
typically they do stuff like fasting and things like it's sacrifice,

(42:39):
it's fasting, it's kneeling and praying for extended periods of time.
It's laying in on the floor on a hard floor
with your arms out and your legs straight in the
position of Christ to make the cross with your bond,
which I'm sure it's very uncomfortable after a while. Oh yeah,
after ten minutes, it's probably uncomfortable do. But it's that

(43:01):
self sacrifice, the flagellation. I that's extreme. I know that.
I in the book there was stuff about I cannot
remember what this device is called, but there is. It's
kind of what you know the dog callers that have
the pinchers for like Doberman's or Rottweiler's where you pull

(43:22):
on it and pinches their neck in any kind of
dog that has a thick neck. Yes, yeah, well not
not like a choke change. Okay, Well, there's a device
like that that has little barbed teeth that supposedly as
a form of this, will be worn on the upper calf,

(43:43):
just just below the knees, so your calf muscle holds
it in place, and all those little barbed teeth are
on the inside, essentially sawing at your leg as you're
walking around all day. And that, according to what I've read,
is also a form of this, whether that's true or not.
And yeah, I don't know if that actually happens or

(44:06):
if this is just like something that was a medieval
thing that people say is still happening. But that's another
thing I saw. Call have you go on the internet.
There's people are in all kinds of weird stuff in
and out of open stay. But my understanding though is
that they mostly mostly just fascinating. Mostly it's mostly mostly
pretty mundane. Yeah, pretty mundane. So that doesn't mean that

(44:29):
there aren't some radicals, but there are some radicals and
literally everything always people to take a little too far. Okay,
you guys wanted to do some theories, let's do it.
Let's do some theories. Okay. Number one, what happened pretty
much went down, like the Vatican said, boring. Yeah, it's
not fun. But apparently there was tension between the Germans

(44:51):
and the French and the Swiss Guard. There was persecution
of Tournay by Estramonry Piers. Tornado protested to est his
superiors and to the chaplain and everybody else, and they
did nothing. And so it's a theory that his anger
and frustration just built and built and built, and then
one of what the metal was was with with hell

(45:13):
from him without warning. And that's like you say, after
he had done so much to inviting his family down
and everything like that. I mean, yeah, he was ready. Yeah,
he was ready for it. And it must have been
a real big blow. I know that. Do you know?
It's the chaplain that the Swiss Guard are supposed to
talk to it the Swiss Guards chaplain. I cannot remember

(45:35):
his name. He forgot his name too. I know it's
Jell j e h l. I think that's how you
pronounce it in in a interview with the chaplain, Like
his name is spelled j e h l E. I
don't know how to pronounce. We'll say it's Gell, but Jelly,

(45:55):
I don't know. But the point is he had made
the statement that Tornay should have been informed days prior,
alone in a room with a supervisor and himself told hey,
you're not going to get the metal and here's why
probably and here's why. And at that point he could

(46:17):
have you know, he could have broken in tears, he
could have screamed and yelled at everybody, but it would
have been in a controlled environment. Yeah, yeah, and yeah,
and I heard he did actually break down in tears
after he found out he wasn't gonna get the medal.
That's that's what is said. Yeah, yeah, so a major
crushing blow to him, and so that's when he went

(46:39):
and wrote that letter. Supposedly he did try to He
said that they tried to contact the chaplain and talk
to him about it, and but the chaplain wouldn't talk
to him. The chaplain denies that though, of course. Yeah,
the chaplain says he came to him and then he
didn't want to talk. It's like, well, why did he
come to you? I don't know. But it's also been
brought out that the chaplain had dinner plans at night

(47:03):
and so he was in a bit of a hurry
and kind of brushed him off and said come back
to me later. Yeah, so there's an issue. So he's
probably got a few regrets there, quite likely. So that's
theory number one. Let's talk about theory number two. Yeah,
this is the one that's been put out there. This
is one of those vague little theories. Esterman knew too
much about the secret intrigues in the Vatican, because, after all,

(47:25):
he was a pope's bodyguard. He spent a lot of
time around the Pope, wasn't he Well, yeah, he wasn't
quite as close to the Pope though, I mean obviously
he would have been. He might have you know. Oh,
I'm sorry, I'm getting them mixed up. Okay, Esterman was
that was the bodyguard. Yeah, souther Vatican had him killed
and Tornado was just a patsy. So here's the weird
thing about that. When the Vatican put out all their

(47:47):
statements about Esterman, one of the things that they say
is he was there when the Pope was shot, which
he was. He was a Swiss guard protecting the pope
on but they say that he threw himself in front
of the Pope to take bullets and defend the Pope
with his life. I didn't do a very good job

(48:09):
of it, did he. No, it's not true. It's not true.
It's absolutely not true. Because there's photographs of the people
who were in the car with the Pope immediately after
he was shot, and you know who's not there. So
that's a photograph of the shooting. Actually an estument is
hiding behind them. No, but but no, he's not there.

(48:33):
He was somewhere off, you know, following the car. So
it's it's I don't know what he would have known
and why they would have turned around, and some praises
about him that weren't actually true if they had so
much reason to kill him. Well, I think there there's
lots of things you can learn in the spy trade,

(48:54):
the tenure of being someone's bodyguard. I don't House of
Cards a lot do you guys watch House of Cards?
But one of the characters in House of Cards is
this guy who's like kind of worked his way up
a little bit to be Underwood's the main character's bodyguard,
and he knows a lot of stuff about Underwood that

(49:15):
he could easily be killed for. You know, I think
that that sort of thing does happen sometimes, that you
have access to the personal and professional life of somebody
being their bodyguard, and if there's something maybe not totally
right going on, if that person is having a real
human experience, which happens a lot, you would know about

(49:37):
it because you're there protecting them through that. And if you,
I don't know, for whatever reason, decided you were going
to go public or somebody decided you knew too much,
that would be a reason. But that that's completely contrary
to Estruman's position. He was moving up the ranks. He
had been promoted, Yes, his promotion, well, his promotion had

(49:59):
been held for weeks or months, nine months, it was
nine months the promotion. And how recently had he been
promoted actually that day that he was He might not
that I necessarily believe this, but to play Devil's advocate

(50:19):
for a second, he was promoted because he kept saying, listen,
I have this information and I'm going public with it
if you guys did not promote me within this amount
of time. And finally they said, all right, fine, you
have the promotion, and then shot him because they knew
he'd continue to use that as blackmail. Yeah, he'd continue
to use it. He would eventually go public. They didn't

(50:40):
want to continue to rank him up. They were doing
that for a long time. He knew something, so they
shot him and it just happened that Tornado was a
great patsy for whatever reason. Yeah, I can see the
lodging in that. I don't I don't believe that it
was an assassination gone wrong. It was something you know,
there's there's all there are so many things, But I

(51:02):
think that it's it's not fair to right off the
fact that as someone's bodyguard, he could have known something,
and he could have been trying to leverage that into
a higher rank. It could have. But the thing that
the thing about it is is that if the Church
routinely has people killed, if that's a regular, regular thing,
if they're basically just like the mafia, but then, um,

(51:24):
I would think that he would know better, even if
he did have some good blackmail goods, I would think
he'd know better than to try something like that. Well,
I I think that that theory doesn't hinge on the
Vatican routinely having people killed and again just every now,
and I mean you would kind of assume that most
people would just say, well, you know, the Pope is
my chosen leader from God. I'll do whatever it takes

(51:48):
to protect him. Their loyalty is stronger. Most people wouldn't
come forward with things, or most people don't know things
that really can incriminate. I don't know. I mean, well,
people have made all sorts of all sorts of lurid
claims against the Pope Francis for example, Oh yeah, absolutely,
they participated in killings in South America and stuff like that.

(52:08):
I mean, hasn't really gone anywhere hasn't, and I'm sure
he hasn't. By the way, an aside to all of
our Catholic listeners, if you're offended by any of this,
I really don't think the Vatican has people killed at all. Okay, yeah,
I don't. I really don't. This is but I'm the screwy.
This screwy often the radar bit. Yeah, I guess I should.

(52:29):
I should also say that I I agree. I'm just
you know, playing that part of trying to say we
should cover all the bases. And I can see where
people have a fairly legitimate claim that this could have happened.
Do I think that's what ictually happened. Absolutely not. Yeah, Okay, Well,

(52:50):
let's let's move on to our next series number three.
Uh Esterman, the head of the Swiss Guard, was caught
up in a struggle between Opus Day and Sonic factions
in the Vatican. Both of us were trying to get
control of the Swiss Guard. Was just a patsy. Okay again,
I actually cut and pasted that in all the theories,

(53:12):
but really I did. The plan was made by an
anonymous group of quote the Vatican clergy and laity who
called themselves the quote the Disciples of Truth they had
they published a book called Blood Lies in the Vatican,
which I could not find anywhere. Yeah, I desperately hunted
for that book because I found the first one. I
was like, I gotta get the completely opposing version. I

(53:35):
don't know if they even published that in English, it
was originally publishing the Yeah, I can't. I can't find it.
You know, it's it's kind of a hard one to
pick up. Yeah, Yeah, but they they claimed that Tornay
was taken to a seller and murdered while hitman were
wasting the instruments, and then and then the Tornado's body
was taken to the apartment and left there or with
his gun underneath. So it appeared that there was a

(53:56):
murder suicide. So these guys, these Disciples of claim to
have they appear to have detailed knowledge of the investigation
of the load. Of course, they could just be making
stuff up. They claimed that there were four used glasses
at the crime scene that subsequently disappeared and nobody's seen him. Sense,
along with the pictures taken by the first official photographer

(54:17):
to arrive in the scene, which we've already talked about.
The pictures all disappeared, which they may have been. I
don't think they've permanently disappeared. They're just kind of lost
somewhere in somewhere. And the Vatican archives, I imagine, are enormous.
They're absolutely huge. Have you Have you ever heard about
the fact that the Vatican will let you find just

(54:41):
about whatever you want in their archives, but good luck
finding I know, you have to know exactly what you're
after and exactly where it should be. They don't let
you roam the staff. Of course, there's actually something I
have firsthand we're all secondhand knowledge of because my mom,
her father was born in Italy and of a Roman

(55:04):
Catholic family, and so they have records of all of
those birth things. I don't know why they just do anyways,
So she was pursuing her Italian citizenship and one of
the things that they said that she had to do
was get proof from the Vatican. And so she had
to submit her quest and say, I think it's this
these dates, this is when you know it was written

(55:25):
down in the Bible as this date. We we don't
actually know exactly when it was. Between this and the
state and the Vatican came back and was like that's
not specific enough. Now you need to know the date
author system you all. Yeah, these these people, the Disciples
of Truth, also claimed that Colonel Esterman his wife his wife,

(55:49):
by the way, I worked at the Venezuelan Embassy to
the Holy See. Yeah. That they claim that they were
actively engaged in secret international financial deals for the benefit
of Opus Day. This is what they claims. They also
claim that no one heard the shots, that that Nune
did appear to hear something. The Estermans lived, they were

(56:09):
like apartments, right. Yeah, so there's pretty much no way
in my book, pretty much no way that nobody heard that. Yeah,
none reported hearing a loud noise, which a gun shot
would be. It's not five loud noises. She was that
kind of elderly. She wasn't an elderly lady. Your hearing

(56:30):
may not have been the best, but she didn't say
she heard five things at row. She just heard a noise, yeah,
and that's when she went to go check, because it
was unusual for those neighbors to have make a bunch
of noise. Yeah, very quiet. So who knows, or maybe
they use silence sers. The only did their did their
little assassination thing. Can we talk about that a little bit. Well, no,

(56:55):
just just some of the stuff that that I know
you talked about some of this earlier when we were
looking at the some of the autopsy stuff and these
things from his mom, and I know you and I
talked about this before. I didn't what's going on? Okay?
So first off, Cedric when he shot himself, he kneeled down,

(57:17):
so he was on his knees, and it appears from
the descriptions I've got that he put his head forward
as if he was in prayer and he shot himself
through the mouth. To do that, that's like, okay, okay,
So you can't, you know, think about you have your
your hand out with a gun in it, you put
your thumb up and your your point your finger forward.

(57:40):
You can't then pull that up because that's very difficult
to pull the trigger. It's really tough. So it won't
go through the top of your skull. It's gonna go
out the back of your neck or your head when
your head has bent forward and you're into your chest.
And a lot of the reports like and there was
this funny shaped hole or small hole in his skull.

(58:02):
The things that I've read the bullet didn't go through
his skull. The bullet went out the back of his neck.
It went through his spin, out the back of his mouth,
through his spine, and into the ceiling where it hits
the ceiling, broke stuff loose, and then bounced around. So,
but that's seven millimeter gun right now, do you really know?

(58:23):
I'm glad you don't, because it's really in your fingers
because the finger right like if you just do the
like bang bang finger, like the heel of your hand
is pointing away from you, like exactly, but so like
I have a trigger right here. Yeah, the heel of
your hand is pointing away. That's the only way that

(58:44):
it's physical. But that also means that the gun is
pointing at the back of your neck. You can't you
can't turn it over and have the thumbs because the
pistol grip would be in your chest. It's like it's
still it's it's really implausible that the way that it's
described that the slide broke his teeth. I've seen that

(59:04):
listed in other places that at that point, right, that's
when you got it. You mean the gun being forced
into his mouth, wellpped it back and then pulled the triggers,
pulled the trigger, the slide ran. I've seen reports to
say whether when the action hit and the slide of
the gun moved to eject the bullet, that it was
that motion that broke his teeth. That's what I was thinking.

(59:27):
But in order to have the gun in his mouth,
he would have to have essentially upside down. Well, he
said his front teeth were broken. I don't know if
they meant his top front teeth or his bottom front teeth.
I don't see how you can fire off again in
your mouth. And that's because you guys have both fired guns, right, yes, yes,

(59:47):
some automatic guns. The slide racks back so quickly, and
to have a piece of steel, it racks back so
quickly you can't even see it. Yeah, yeah, it's that fast.
And so the front, the front side is going to
catch your teeth and bust them off. If okay, if
I am putting a gun in your mouth, you're absolutely right.
But to put a gun in your own mouth, you

(01:00:09):
have to have the gun ups right now. We don't
have to, ye, if he's in the kneeling, head forward position,
he does. No, you don't, am I conceptualizing this wrong.
I feel like Joe, you can turn it around. I
can do it either way. I think most likely what
you're going to do with the gun will be upside
down in your mouth. But it's possible to nail your

(01:00:32):
head down the butt like right here in your chests.
It's possible. But a guy who uses a gun all
the time isn't gonna pulp the trigger with his thumb.
But my point is we're way off of where that are. Initially,
I didn't want to mention that the broken teeth though,
and that and that is the gun's front side totally

(01:00:52):
could have pulled out. It could have not, it could
have not got his bottom teeth, or it could have
been the recoil popped out his top front teeth. Yeah,
either way. But what I'm getting at is that he
didn't shoot himself through the top of the skull. Yeah. No.
And that's why the accudental wound was not was seven
millimeters versus nine, because it were not the back of
his neck, which is all muscle in skin, and under pressure,

(01:01:15):
those things are going to expand to the nine millimeter
and then they're gonna because they're elastic, exactly into position.
That's so that's the one thing I want to talk
about when the the autopsy reports, and it couldn't have
been this, and someone else had to do it. It
was a different caliber gun. I don't know. I guess
I generally assumed that I don't know. I would have

(01:01:37):
assumed this may be a false assumption, but I would
assume that the corners that were hired later would have
been made aware of his position and would have factored
that in. They weren't made aware of any position, though
they weren't given any details. He kneeled, He kneeled down.

(01:01:58):
Part that speculation on the part of the Vatican that
we have all then jumped on board with and we're
running with right now, right so so exactly so it
could have been a seven millimeter exit wound, that what
came from a seven millionaire bullet because he wasn't knelt down, right,
it's possible. The other thing is that there's the blood

(01:02:19):
in the mucus in his lungs. Okay, if you shoot
yourself through the neck, you don't die immediately, So it's
entirely possible that he lay there alive for I don't know,
ten minutes bleeding, which would have gone entirely possible. Do

(01:02:45):
you go back to the people who try to commit suicide,
the like brain reaction of O crop, I don't want
to do this. The fact that you would like lay
there seems unlikely. You would probably crawl try to like
get to something. Well, he probably exact probably not able
to do anything. But then he wouldn't have been able

(01:03:05):
to swallow. It would have been drooling out. It would
have run down his throat though depending on exactly how Yeah,
it could have just been running down his throat, And
I don't know from first aid is that, like you
have to put people in really specific positions for recovery.
To open up the esophagus and to open all of

(01:03:25):
the lung and whatever track whatever, you have to put
people in really specific positions. So, yes, it is possible
that he fell into, luckily exactly the right position so
that that all went down into his lungs. But it's
also possible that that didn't happen and something else happened.
But yeah, no, I think that that's a it's a
good thing to bring up, yes, because people get on

(01:03:48):
the drum and they start beating the drum. It's the
conspiracy he was killed earlier. That's why I want to
bring these things and that went way farther. And I
don't think we've ever had this much hand evening in
the in the studio before an Italian story. I know,
we're all sticking our fingers in our before we wrap

(01:04:10):
up theory number three after that little link and run
to the weeds there um and then again we're talking
about the whole struggle between Opus Day and the Masonic factor. Masons.
The Masons, well, excuse me. That's why I don't believe
this one at all, Because there's Mason's in the Vatican. No, no,

(01:04:32):
I mean yeah, I mean it's it's actually you can
be excommunicated if you're for being a member of the Masons,
of the Freemason's if you're a Catholic. I mean, the
idea that there's Masonic factions in the Vatican, it's just ludicrous.
They're Christian. Well, I don't think they're Catholic. They're anti

(01:04:52):
Catholic and in their original in their original form. And
I think that you know, your average Mason today, I
don't know how many are left act sort of yeah.
I think they're they've become more secularized and and all
that stuff. They're not as anti cat like the original
Mason's way back in the day, we used to be
anti Catholic and they were actually committed to the destruction
of the Catholic Church. And so so it's actually really

(01:05:17):
against the rules if you're a Catholic to be a Mason,
And it really doesn't make any sense either. It's completely
contrary to the Catholic doctrine because the Mason's believed that
basically doesn't really matter what religion you are as long
as you as long as you behave well, then that's
all that matters. Would this would this be equivalent to
I'm just trying to put this in a kind of
a different light or a different analogy. Would this be

(01:05:41):
the same as saying, somebody who is really into Communism
is running for office in our country as a as
a running and say a Democrat. Would that be the
same thing where they're there their personal views according to
what we know, would be so a hunted eight de
grieve from what they're moving towards. Like I'm trying to

(01:06:03):
figure out exactly how this works, I think it would
be more like I don't I don't think that the
Communists and the Democrats are completely incongruous, but it being
more like a communist running as a Republican. What they
say is that Masonry runs parallel to Catholicism, right, and
that they they will never intersect. They will never yeah,

(01:06:28):
pretty much, because I think that the belief of masonry,
and I'm sure we'll do an episode on this at
some point, but the belief of masonry or freemasonry or
whatever is that one can be pleasing to God or
whatever you may believe in any spiritual tradition. Essentially, it

(01:06:48):
is not required that you are a Christian, that you
believe in Christ, that you're a Catholic, that you follow
these rules to be pleasing to God. And that is
superno okay with Catholic now in most churches to that way. Really,
what the Catholic Church especially is this is the one
true face, you know, and so it's a total contradiction
in terms to be a Catholic in a Mason. Okay, see, yeah,

(01:07:10):
I don't get but we've had this conversation before, Like
I just never get religion. I think you just I
think that you don't not get it. I think you
just zone out. It's just white noise. I don't know,
like I can never get the theology and therefore follow
walls and trains of thought. Let's let's move forward. So
I know you've got more, so that's why just a

(01:07:30):
one or two more. But yeah, anyway, so Masonics, Masonic
factions versus Okay, next series number four. Asterman was a
spy for East German intelligence in the nineteen eighties the
Famus stash. The Vatican found out and had him killed.
Tornado was just a Patsy coffee. Yeah. I think it's

(01:07:54):
like Vergin on plagiarism. At this point, you have plagiarizing myself. Yeah,
this is uh, this is actually from a called the
secret Ation of the Vatican by a journalist name Victor.
Victor Guitard we taught. Yeah, I'm soon trying to pronounce
these damn names. People get names like John American names. Yeah, American. Anyway,

(01:08:16):
thanks for you know, alienating Oliver overseas list your YouTube.
I'm sorry we can't pronounce anything like Lester. Yeah. Yeah,
so this is this is something I was not able
to actually find any real I couldn't really validate this one. Uh. Supposedly,
the former directors of Stacy, Marcus Wolfe, said that something

(01:08:38):
that he had been the estimate, had been a spy
for them since nineteen seventy nine. But I can't find
any actual documentation. Were you guys able to find any,
did you? Okay? She was pointing to a book. I'm
pointing back to the same book because I love my
local library and that's where I got this book. Uh. Yeah, No.
So the humber that the Stasi had a mole in

(01:09:03):
the Vatican to have had they would have loved to
have had quite likely. But and I don't I didn't
think to bookmark the page that talks about this, so
I can't give you the code name of that agent.
But they but everybody said, well that agent was in
the Vatican, except that agent wasn't in the Vatican. And

(01:09:26):
the group that that this so called mole was as
filiated with, they looked at internal issues in East Germany.
They I believe it was East Germany. They couldn't look
at places like the Vatican because they weren't allowed to
look at those places. So that one, really, I think,

(01:09:49):
is one has just been spun up and spun up
and spun up, maybe by the author of said book
that you have mentioned there. I don't know, but everything
that I've I've seen, especially in most of it that
seemed concrete came from uh flane, but it seems yeah, probably, Yeah.
There's there's even a sub like a like a little

(01:10:12):
branch off of this one, which is not that he
was not just a spy, but he also participated actually
in the assassination attempt at nineteen one of John Paul
the second, which was run by essentially, I mean, there
were a lot of fingers in that particular pie, but
essentially it was mostly run by Bulgarian intelligence from what
I've heard, and so, yeah, and so here if he

(01:10:34):
was an agent of the Stace, and of course these
guys were all these guys are all cooperating, then they
could have very well gotten information about Jean Paul's movements
or maybe gotten him to just like, you know, like
step aside for a moment or two, a little bit,
and you know, but there's again, I find no no
credible evidence for this at all. You know the worst

(01:10:54):
part about the the assassination attempt on the pope in
eight one, Yeah, do you know the Swiss guard we're
supposed to do when they were following the car, watch
the pope, watch the Yeah, they didn't look at the crowd,
they didn't look for danger. They didn't they weren't looking around.
Their job was to be there and stare at the

(01:11:15):
Pope the whole time. Maybe you think that maybe one
guy could be assigned to stare at the pope the
rest of them. There's crowds of people staring at the pub.
Come on, let's up stair at the pole by him
a popemobile. Actually, well, yeah, obviously we know that eventually happened. Yeah,
it's got a cool pubmobill. Yeah that he's no longer

(01:11:35):
in use. Just said I thought the popmobill was awesome.
I'd drive it everywhere. I would love to have a
pop I would drive it. Joe would be standing up
in the little box everybody where. I'm the Swiss Guard apparently. Yeah, yeah,
you walked next to the car. Great. Yeah, any other theories,
promobile looks like it's hot. Any other thing. I've got

(01:11:56):
only one more theory, only one more theory, and its
last theory number five. Five. Yeah, number five. It was
a love triangle, I know, I know, with him and sorry,
with Tornay and Easterman and Esterman. Yeah, apparently, maybe things
weren't always so bad between those two. There's there's a

(01:12:18):
rumor out there that Tornay was bisexual, and there were
also rumors that Esterman was also bisexual, and they had
you know, I've I've heard anywhere from a two years
year love affair to just a little fling. But that
apparently Esterman sort of threw Tornay over for another guy

(01:12:42):
and or a lady or his wife. And actually, I
hate to be putting theories like this out. These guys
are dead, you know, they can't speak for themselves or
anything like that, but they but they were also Catholic.
I mean so that you know, the church by and
large is particularly at this time. These days it's a

(01:13:04):
little more accepting, but at this time, to be gay
and a Catholic was just like one of the largest sins. Actually, no,
it's okay to be again a Catholic. You just no, no,
even then it was okay, can't act on it, you
just can't act. Okay to be gay actively, you know whatever,
to actual to actually act on your impulses. That was

(01:13:27):
the sin. And if you if you're part of the
Swiss Guard, right, you're part of the elite of the
Catholic Church. It's a huge scandal, You wouldn't necessarily this
might this you know, if this actually were true, then
you would think that the sooner or later that they
would have found out about it in the Vatican, and
that might account for a little bit of the lack

(01:13:48):
of transparency. They don't want they don't want to tell
the whole story. You know. I've read all these accounts
as well, and I'm going to take the same approach
as Joe, which is I feel really bad for bad
mouthing these guys and saying these things about them that
we can't substantiated. But the hard part is there are

(01:14:08):
all of the stories that I think everybody has heard
of of gay priests and all the things I mean,
there's stories of lack of a better term, sex parties
and Novatican. No, none of this is substantiated, but you
hear these stories. So it's like, I don't believe that. Well,
I've heard it enough times. Maybe now I don't glad

(01:14:30):
to believe it. Like I'm really torn on that, Like
I I don't believe it ones engaged, one is married.
You'd think that that would, you know, would stop it.
But then again, it's a lot of people that have
put on the airs and hidden it for ages and ages.
I don't want to stand on that. No, it's it's

(01:14:51):
hard to say. I don't think the proof is exactly
conclusive for this particular one. So I don't know it's
time to flip a coin. Huh. Yeah, which I which
there you guys like him, I don't know. I don't
necessarily like any of them. Yeah, I mean, I think
I really like to say there's something really nefarious going on.

(01:15:15):
That's kind of mine more fun, you know. It's it's
more fun to say, oh, the Vatican totally had these
dudes off for whatever reason. They had this creepy monk
like the flagellateimself. It's that's so much more fun, you know.
And I think that the evidence is strong that tor
name was probably not the kind of guy to just

(01:15:37):
go shoot two people and then himself well blood. But
I also don't know that there's a good theory about
what was going on, you know, I don't think there's
any any None of them are good to me. Yeah,
I think they Even though I had to say it,
I think the whole, the whole gay thing between Estimate

(01:15:58):
and Tournay really makes it a little more credible. When
its guess because you know you're not, even though obviously
he jilted lover. Yeah, jilted lover is a lot more,
a lot more big good excuse to go murder suicide. Honestly, Yeah,
that's way better for me than like, oh, he I'm
not in it. Yeah, but you know I'm not in it.

(01:16:19):
So I don't know how important the medal was to
torn it, but you know, to me, it's the jilted
lover is a stronger Yeah, yeah, that's a stronger motivation.
It would also help explain more why the Vatican has
been so hush hush about it, right, And I want
to say these guys were kind of acting on their sin.
And you know, for the record, I don't think that

(01:16:40):
saying these two dudes were gay is bad mouthing them,
but it's but we don't we don't know that that's true.
That's my that's I think we're Joe and I had
both go. There's nothing wrong with being gay. It's saying well,
they must have been they must have been gay. Lover. Absolutely,
there's there's an overttone there that shouldn't be Absolutely, I
think it it's a total option, you know, And and

(01:17:02):
there's there's certainly some fair proof for it, but also
there's fair proof for wants of other things. So who knows. Honestly,
I I personally I feel bad. I I think that
it's amazing is that he's gonna sound. I think the
Vatican story is right because of the stuff that I've

(01:17:22):
read of all of the bs that toured a put
up with. I think the straw that broke the cameras
straw broke the camel's back. And think about you ever
had a roommate that you really don't like, and you
haven't lived with him a couple of months, you have
lived with him a couple of years, and all of

(01:17:43):
the sudden they leave a plate on the countertop and
you lose your mind and go crazy at them. Something
like that. Something. Yeah, I can see the same thing
is that you've got a boss that you've hate and
then one day he does something that is just so
dumb and you can't take it anymore and you lose

(01:18:06):
your mind. Yeah, And that's that's where I think. I
don't I don't buy into the Vaticans. He had a tumor,
he was like all that stuff. I think that they
were they were hedging their bets with But I think
he snapped. Yeah, I think I think it's possible, and
I feel bad for the guy. Really, I kind of

(01:18:27):
like when doing my research I had reading about torn
A Um. He seemed like a likable guy. He seemed
like a happy dude. And you know, the thing was,
he's gonna get his medal. He was gonna go home,
he was gonna start his career where he was going out.
I had done that Swiss Guard, but he couldn't see
this problem. He couldn't do it if he didn't get

(01:18:48):
the he needed to get the medal. Was the proof
that he did it, and then I did right, exactly
exactly was Esterman was totally screwing him. Whether whether Obestman
or somebody else that said that he couldn't get it,
I don't know, but that's you know, he got screwed
in the end. Yeah, he really did. He's the victim. Yeah,

(01:19:12):
not Patsy the victim. Okay, so we solve that mystery.
Let me give you, let me give us some relevant facts.
There you want to probably dying to find our website.
Of course you've probably already been there, but in case
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(01:19:35):
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(01:19:55):
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(01:20:17):
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(01:20:41):
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I'm sorry, another mystery we must look into. I listened

(01:21:03):
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(01:21:23):
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(01:21:45):
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(01:22:06):
you get your emails and you check them, what's a
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we'll probably contact you at some point a huge list already.
It's been me. We started this one a week and
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(01:22:27):
of it right away. And by the way, I really
could use a demolitions expert also, somebody who knows how
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So yeah, send us that email. If if that's you
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various social media's, we would really appreciate it. And if

(01:22:49):
that's it for you guys, it for me, I think
I'm done. Okay, well that's until next week.