Kaitlyn Joshua: How a Miscarriage Fueled a Movement

Kaitlyn Joshua is a faith organizer and activist whose advocacy for reproductive freedom is rooted in one of the most painful experiences of her life. In this episode, Kaitlyn shares how what began as a planned pregnancy turned into a medical crisis—when she was turned away from the emergency room twice while miscarrying, left to suffer for months without care. This moment wasn’t just a pivot — it was a reckoning. As a woman of faith, Kaitlyn recognized that her experience was not an anomaly; it was the direct result of restrictive reproductive policies in a post-Roe America. Fueled by her personal trauma and deep commitment to justice, Kaitlyn has become a powerful national voice, co-founding Abortion in America, joining the Harris-Walz campaign trail, and being named one of Glamour’s Women of the Year. 

 

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She Pivots was created by host Emily Tisch Sussman to highlight women, their stories, and how their pivot became their success. To learn more about Kaitlyn, follow us on Instagram @ShePivotsThePodcast or visit shepivotsthepodcast.com. 

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Episode Transcript

Kaitlyn Joshua (00:00):
Welcome back to She Pivots. I'm Caitlyn Joshua.

Emily Tisch Sussman (00:13):
Welcome back to She Pivots, the podcast where we talk
with women who dare to pivot out of one career
and into something new and explore how their personal lives
impacts these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. We
often talk on she Pivots about how life rarely follows

(00:34):
a straight line, and sometimes it's not just a pivot,
it's a reckoning, a moment that splits your life into
a before and an after. For Caitlyn Joshua, that moment
came in an emergency room in Louisiana where, despite suffering
a miscarriage, she was turned away not once twice. This
is the horrifying reality millions of women have to deal

(00:56):
with in America today. And three years after Roeph Wade
was overturned, as more and more stories are coming out
of women suffering because of the restrictive laws and doctors
withholding care because of confusion around these laws, felt important
to share Caitlyn's story. As a woman of faith, Caitlyn
spent her career as a faith organizer, working to build

(01:17):
community advocate for social justice, and build coalitions. Then, after
the birth of her first daughter in twenty eighteen, Caitlyn
and her husband started to plan to have their next
baby when what she thought was a minor miscarriage turned
into the most physically and mentally painful times of her life.
She was turned away from the emergency room with a

(01:37):
prayer and directions to just take tylanl. Kitlyn will talk
more about her experience in this episode, but just know
that it took her two months to pass her miscarriage,
two months without any medical help. Because of her background,
Caitlyn was able to understand that what happened to her
wasn't just a one off. It was a result of
the recent policy changes to limit reproductive access, and it

(02:00):
lit a fire that has fueled her ever since. Caitlyn
used her experience as an organizer and hit the ground running,
sharing the most intimate and difficult details of her story
to help change hearts and minds and build public support
for reproductive freedom. Last year alone, Caitlyn was named one
of Glamour's Women of the Year, launched Abortion in America,

(02:21):
an organization that she co created with the late Cecil Richards,
and went on the road with the Harris Walls presidential campaign,
and throughout it all her work has been rooted in
her personal story. I want to thank Caitlin for coming
on and sharing her most vulnerable story. As a mother myself,
I know how scary pregnancy can be, and no woman
should have to endure what Caitlyn went through. I hope

(02:44):
in sharing her story we can start to shift the
narrative and change harmful policies that are in place across
the country. Let's jump in.

Kaitlyn Joshua (02:58):
My name is Caitlin Joshua, and I I am an
abortion rights advocate in South Louisiana. I also dabble in
environmental justice work, but for the most part, my life
has been abortion rights work since my own lived experience
two and a half years ago.

Emily Tisch Sussman (03:12):
We're going to back all the way up. Little Kaitlin,
tell us about your family. What did you think you
wanted to be when you grew up?

Kaitlyn Joshua (03:19):
Where are you from? Give us a little Kaitlin. I
am a native of Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and Little Caitlin
definitely wanted to be a medical doctor. Physician. That was
my dream and I always said it out loud, and
I always joke and say I might actually still go
do that. My parents. Actually, I love telling this story.
So I grew up where both of my grandparents on

(03:41):
both sides lived on the same street, so you would.
And to be clear, I'm thirty two years old and
my parents are from Baton Rouge Episodically this part of
Baton Rouge called Scotlandville, which is North Baton Rouge's a
pretty predominantly black part of town. They grew up on
the same street and literally that's how they met when
they were thirteen years old and went to schooled together,
college together, and then had us And I say us,

(04:03):
I have a twin sister. She her name was Angel.
She's a medical doctor in New Orleans. But we were
born in nineteen ninety two, and so my parents left,
you know, kind of decided to settle in Southeast battle
Rouge just because it was at that time it was
kind of booming in terms of economic boom, and school
systems were kind of a hot topic at the time,
as we were kind of the longest I believe, decid

(04:24):
order in the United States, and so it took us
a while to get like that diversity piece within our
school systems. And so my parents are very intentional about
raising us in South end Rouge, and they still live
there today and I'm not too too far from them.
But so essentially family is pretty much like our world,
right Like we always make the joke that like everybody
kind of calls Louisiana the big magnet, right like, it's

(04:46):
we know we want to leave because the political landscape sucks,
to be quite honest. But we have family here, our
cultures here in terms of raising our kids in the South.
And I actually met my husband at Southern University, where
I went to college. We also worked together at a
hotel in vat Rouge, and so that was nine years ago.
We worked together and I remember started doing his physics
homework and that's how he fell in love with me.

(05:08):
And soon after that, seven years ago, we got married.
Had my daughter not too long after that, and she's six.
And then fast forward to now where I'm kind of
literally yanking my kids left and right to do the
work that I do, which is organizing. We had our
son a year and a half year one point five
years ago, excuse me, and have just been, you know,
enjoying teaching them the importance of this moment. And I

(05:31):
probably referenced that a lot in this podcast, just like
helping my kids understand, you know, what is a rally,
what is a protest? Like helping them stay involved and
seeing their mom and the fight is very important to me.
And what's so interesting and the reason why I said
pro choice always, I guess like, as a young black woman,
you know that considers herself very progressive, Like for me,
it was a given, and even my very staunchly Christian

(05:52):
parents have always raised us to be pro choice, like
through the lens of or like helping us understand that
a woman's decision is hers and it's not your business, right,
like very much helping us understand at a very young
age that it is not for us to decide how
someone wants to live their lives or the decisions that
they make with their medical providers are not our own.
And so even though I still consider myself a Christian,

(06:13):
I take my kids to church every single Sunday. I
also help them understand that reproductive health care is an
important facet in a woman's life and a family's lives.
And I've always been so grateful for my parents also
setting that tone for us.

Emily Tisch Sussman (06:28):
So you started on the medical path, you thought you're
going to be a doctor. And as a young child,
what attracted you to being a doctor? Like, did you
have doctors in your family? And that's also super interesting
that your twin sister ended up as a doctor.

Kaitlyn Joshua (06:42):
Yeah, she had to show me up. Yeah. So I
grew up around a lot of even though I didn't
have a ton of I had a lot of lawyers
in our family, but we had a couple physicians on
both my mom's side and my dad's. But for the
most part, I was inspired by a set of tins
actually that were amazing role models in the community in

(07:03):
baund Rouge, black women who went on to have their
own private practice, and I'd followed them for the entirety
of my childhood and into adolescents, and so I really
aspired to be like them until this day, have a
really good relationship with both of them. With me having
a twin sister, I was like, we should be like them,
you know. And so I think what was so aspirational

(07:23):
about the two of them is it was kind of
at a time where Louisiana did not have a ton
of obi guides or just women in healthcare at all,
specifically Black women in healthcare and so it was kind
of twenty years ago, twenty almost thirty years ago in
which we kind of saw like a real trend or
intentionality behind medical schools supporting different initiatives to be able

(07:45):
to get more women of color in their programs. And
we got to see that firsthand. And of course now
I'm proud to say there are way more women of
color that are doing their thing, matriculating through medical school
and going on to have private practice and stay in Louisiana,
which is really cool. But at the time, it wasn't
often that you would see women of color in medicine,

(08:05):
and so for me that was kind of like a
sign that I should be doing something like that. And
I've always had a really big interest in science and
was really good at it, got straight a's, never missed
a science robotics class or meeting, always joined clubs like
I was obsessed with science, still am, which definitely benefits
my sex yerol now that she has science homework. But

(08:26):
I've always just really wanted to be in that realm,
in that realm of medicine. Can you talk us through
the change?

Emily Tisch Sussman (08:34):
You said you had become disillusioned with medicine and decided
not to do it anymore?

Kaitlyn Joshua (08:38):
Can you talk us through that? Yeah, to be perfectly honest,
when I was in Houston and interning at different medical
offices and trying to prep for medical school in the
next fall, I just witnessed like kind of a hierarchical
structure that I wasn't privy to you before. I never
spent that much time with a physician day in and

(08:59):
day out, and you know, really got to witness all
the intricacies and complexities of a medical office. And for me,
it was if I could be quite frank like, very
white patriarchal in a lot of ways, and I did.
I was like, Okay, I'm not I can't sign up
for this. I can't do that. And even though you know,
I didn't go on to attend or finish medical school,
and watching my sister navigate those complexities, and just like

(09:22):
the inherent biases implicit biases within the medical school system,
I knew that I made the right decision for myself.
And just from the time that I witnessed it in
Houston and then watching my sister like cry all the
time and get upset and frustrated when different kind of
racial undertones would happen. Within her medical school and how
she had to combat that on a daily basis. I
knew that it was not good for her mental health.

(09:45):
All in all, she did successfully graduate, which was wonderful,
but I knew that I had made the right decision
for my life not to deal with that.

Emily Tisch Sussman (09:53):
Still, Caitlin graduated with a Bachelor in Science and headed
to Houston to pursue what she thought was her career.

Kaitlyn Joshua (10:01):
I graduated, I guess that was spring of twenty sixteen,
and then, oh god, now I'm really showing my age.
But spring of twenty sixteen, and then by this summer,
I'd moved to Houston, and so I just knew I
would get my life together in Houston and I would
go on to pursue medicine. And sure enough, I did
not do that. I stuck it out in Houston for
like six months or seven months. I had my husband

(10:23):
Maui's my fiance at the time, moved me back to
Louisiana by summer of twenty seventeen, and that is when
I decided to go out on a limb and get
a job at a law firm. Did feel big?

Emily Tisch Sussman (10:34):
Was it like an identity loss or it just felt
like Okay, let me find the next thing.

Kaitlyn Joshua (10:37):
I'm young, I'll try out different stuff. It was definitely
identity loss, like so much that, you know, I'd even
I don't think you'd mind me shared. I'd even told
mys and I was like, I don't think we should
get married yet, Like I don't have anything together, dude.
Like I just wanted to kind of just do the
things that I didn't get to do in college, which
I lived at home. Don't ever do that, whoever's listening,

(10:59):
don't do that that idea. You save money, but you
don't have freedom. And so I lived with my parents,
and I mean I was I graduated little late twenty three,
almost twenty four, and to be almost twenty four years
old and not have like the full autonomy over your
life or what you want to do, over your schedule,
parents calling you at midnight asking where you are. So
I wanted to experience life beyond my parents' house. And

(11:21):
so I took the summer of twenty seventeen and through
twenty eighteen to be able to do that. It definitely
raised some help. My parents were not thrilled that I was,
you know, seeking another path, and I was like, you're
going to be broke. So she you know, she was
really disappointed that I spent so much of my time
in my life being committed to the cause and committed

(11:41):
to to you know, going to medical school and then
at the very last second deciding that was no longer
the path for me. And she even tried to convince me,
what about nursing or PA, like, you don't have to
like completely sit out of all of it. There surely
has to be a path for you. And my sister
was very supportive though, which was really weird, Like I
thought she'd be the most upset, but it was definitely
my mom and my dad. It was really hard telling

(12:04):
my dad as he had bragged all of his frat
brothers and family members that he was going to have
medical doctors for you know, his tones were going to
be medical physicians and we take care of him well
into his old age and all the things, and so
he was really hurt. And it wasn't until I you know,
kind of showed them that, you know, organizing is a career,

(12:25):
you can do it and have you know, a lucrative
career and be able to make money and so you know,
keep the lights on that they finally believe that I
can make it something tangible. So what did you say?

Emily Tisch Sussman (12:38):
Because I think some people listening also might not even
know what an organizer is an organizer?

Kaitlyn Joshua (12:43):
How do I explain an organizer? So, an organizer is
responsible for kind of bridging the gap within the community
in terms of working on certain issue areas and doing
as it sounds like, organizing around it, mobilizing people to
advocate on a certain issue, move them to you know,
engage with an I Liked it official or protest or
a rally. They are responsible for basically making sure there

(13:06):
is impact or change on a specific issue area. And
it is also a job that requires you to work
all the time. So it's a pretty unique position. But
so funny that you asked me that my daughter just
did an interview for first grade and she asked me, mommy,
what do you do for a living. I was like,
I'm a political organizer and she said, well, what is that?
What does it do? And had to explain to her

(13:26):
what a political organizer is and the roles and responsibilities.
And I also remember saying like, do I want my
kid to go to school with this on a paper?
But just in terms of safety, et cetera. But you know,
in all in essence, I would say organizers are responsible
for civil rights movement, any movement that you can think
of that is working to try and impact change.

Emily Tisch Sussman (13:47):
After the Break, Caitlin dives into what influenced her to
become a faith organizer and the challenges she was up
against finding churches in the South that shared her values.

(14:08):
You spent some of your career as a faith organizer.
So how did the role of faith play in your
family and growing up?

Kaitlyn Joshua (14:17):
Yeah, so I still kept a great deal of what
I learned growing up, and I've carried a lot of
those traditions to my kids, but also like switched it
up right, so I'll make y'all laugh. My sister married
a Jewish guy and they just finished doing Satyr and Passover,
and so even though my kids are not Jewish at all, like,

(14:38):
it's important for me to teach them that there are
different faiths and that you can honor respect other people's traditions.
And so, while I do take my kids to church
every Sunday, my husband does a men's group once a
month at church on Mondays, and then I'll go to
Ladies Night on Wednesday sometimes because for us. It's about
like filling our cup, especially right now when things beings

(14:59):
are so quite honestly, and you're just trying to figure
out how to make it through the day. Like I
do look to my faith to being a part of that,
you know, restoring of hope and restoring of being able
to kind of get through day to day with my kids.
And so, yeah, to answer your question, still very much
are involved in the church, but I also was very
intentional about where I chose to be involved, as my

(15:22):
pastor is so progressive and really supports the work that
I do, and like not just like supports it silently,
but shares that with the church on Sunday morning, like
the work that we're doing in the reproductive space through
the lens of black maternal health care, abortion care, whatever
you want to call it. I make sure that the
people that I surround myself with and my kids are
constantly engaging with people that are progressive in a faith.

Emily Tisch Sussman (15:45):
Have you left churches or changed churches because you didn't
feel aligned. Oh yeah, absolutely, I've.

Kaitlyn Joshua (15:49):
Been hurt multiple times unfortunately, and I mean even with
my son being a year and a half now, I
had to be very strategic about where I wanted to
put him for daycare. Most of our daycares in the
state are attached aligned with a church, and so I
wanted to make sure that I was giving him even
if it's like daycare, it's who's going to be with
every day, what he's going to see. And there have

(16:10):
been churches that have been very vocal about, you know,
Kamala Harris, you know, when I was on the campaign trail,
being aligned with you know, the devil or not supporting
Christian values. And I've had to turn my back from
those churches or make sure that my kids are not
involved with folks that attend there, or just be thinking
of over the years when I was in college, like
trying out different churches, trying to figure out where I belonged.

(16:32):
You know, if there was a message around anti LGBTQ rights,
I would make sure that I was not back on
that Sunday right the next Sunday. And so I've had
to walk away from quite a few congregations, which I'm
grateful for in a way because it led me to
the church that I've been at for the last five
six years.

Emily Tisch Sussman (16:48):
As Caitlyn figured out her path as a faith organizer,
she wasn't alone. She had her husband, Landon, who she
met in college.

Kaitlyn Joshua (16:56):
I met Liandon at the Renaissance Hotel. We were both
working there ine and one day he asked me to
help him with his physics homework and I was like, sure,
I'll help you with the homework, and I ended up
doing it. But we were kind of weird because for
years we were dating other people, and like we would
travel together in a friend group and like hang out

(17:17):
in all these different countries, but never, like one day
we were just kind of like, why aren't we together?
And it wasn't working out with other people, And so
Blannon finally asked me out at his grandma's house, like
eight years ago and we've been together ever since, and
so literally a year to date after that, he asked
me to marry him. Here after that, we had our daughter. Wait,

(17:37):
we need to pause a second. Here, a grandma's house
is not traditionally the most romantic. Oh my god, it's not.
It's not. And what's so sad? Is? And yes, Slata
and I'm putting you on blast. Not only did he
ask me out at my grandma's house, at his grandma's house,
excuse me? Love her? Like love her so much, but
he asked me to marry him in the parking lot
of my parents' house. So I was like, really, dude,

(17:59):
like you can switch it up. Okay, we need both
stories we need can we please start with you Grandma?
So after he I'll never forget it was a Sunday
because it was a Saints game and we're New Orleans
Saints fans. We think we're still New Orleans Saints fans
and at the time we were going to a game
and we are. We just come back from the game,
and this was after this dude literally rolled up to

(18:20):
the ATM. He was so nervous about the date, like
he took out he thought he took out cash the ATM.
He left the cash in the ATM. We get all
the way to the New Orleans Saints game, have no money.
Thank god I had my cards, but I was like, oh,
capital want and tell them you left the money in
the ATM. And thank god they reimbursed him because I
guess they saw on camera that he really did roll
up leave money in the ATM. We go to the game.

(18:41):
It was amazing. Remember we won. Went out to eat
afterwards with a couple of a friend of ours that
are couple and got back to his grandma's house and
he's like, oh, you know, we've been hanging out for years,
and you know now we're both single. We should date,
can you know? Which mean my girlfriend? And I remember
your grandma's inside them all. He's right there, she's probably

(19:02):
looking at us through the window, and so I remember
telling him yes, and literally it was the most fun
i'd had that year. We just, oh god, we just
had such an easy relationship. And I'll say, to date,
our relationship is just so easy. Maybe that's weird to
a lot of people because they're like, how do y'all
do it? Like you just and then you pop kids
into the picture. But literally a year later, he asked

(19:24):
me to marry him at my parents' house, and it
was not romantic at all, Like it was pitch black outside.
I don't even remember seeing him, and I remember him
like getting on one knee, asked me to marry him.
My parents claim they had no idea inside, but I
know that he had asked them permission. And then we
go inside, we announce to them that we're engaged, and
then he leaves and goes to work. So I was like,

(19:45):
what in the world is wrong with you? Like he
he's never a planner. I have to do all the planning.
And so he literally, after thirty minutes of asking me
to marry him, he whisp off to At the time,
he was working for a gas station chain and went
there to go to work. And I was like, okay, Lan,
so that's kind of like the summary of our relationship
and it's always we random, yeah, And then had you

(20:08):
always wanted kids because you did have your daughter quite young?
I had my daughter quite young, and I did not
want kids. I did not I had no intentions on
being a mom. And I would even sell my brother
in law, my sister in law, who's my husband's brother.
You know, I'm so glad you all have kids because
I don't want kids, you know. And ended up pregnant
with Lauren, and I remember thinking I do not want kids,

(20:29):
and I honestly tried to convince him like are we sure,
we you know, want to do this, Like there's a lot,
We're signing up for a lot. And I remember spending
months like are you sure? Are you sure? And so
so glad that we kept her. She's a cool kid.
I like her, but at the time I had no
intentions on being a mother, and was really glad that
my kind of like mother instincts kicked in, because I

(20:50):
was so concerned that it wouldn't. But I loved the
freedom of just being married, you know, and the freedom
of just kind of deciding when I want to go
where I want to go. And so I always sell
my younger cousin that don't have kids yet, like, make
sure that's really what you want to do, Like it
really is a life change you're signing up for, no regrets.
Lauren's six now and is vibrant and sassy and so southern,

(21:11):
and so it works out great. But it took me
a minute to really for that to really resonate. I
remember the when the nurse had told me six and
a half years ago, oh, you're going to be mom,
and wait, so you found out at a doctor's I didn't.
I found out at a doctor's office. I had been
having terrible pains, couldn't explain it. That had gone on
for about two three weeks, and finally I was like,

(21:32):
oh my god, the hospital, like I think I'm having
a kidney stone pass or something. And got there and
the nurse walks in and she was like, Nope, You're
going to be a mom, and she was smiling, and
I was like, why are you smiling? Like are you
kidding me? Right now? Like I was so mad, so
upset and had failed birth control and was just like
so confused and frustrated, and Leanna was so excited about

(21:54):
being a dad kind of was just like, we can
do this. And I hadn't remember we had gone, quite honestly,
gone back and forth on whether that was the right
thing for us at that time. And by the way,
that's basically exactly what happened to me.

Emily Tisch Sussman (22:05):
I wasn't as young as you were, but I just
hadn't really I just couldn't imagine myself as a mom.
I'm like, oh, I'm a I didn't feel a maternal instinct,
but like it was a real I had a lot
of fear that like that. I had heard people say
that your life will change, and I thought, well, I've
worked really hard for this life. I don't know that
I wanted to change in a way that I'm not
ready for. Were those some of the things that were

(22:25):
going through your head?

Kaitlyn Joshua (22:26):
Or was it? Absolutely? And I love that we're having
this conversation because I feel like people don't have it enough.
Like it's a really raw and honest, you know, response
to when you find out you're pregnant, and some of us,
you know, don't want to be you know, and so
and I think that's okay, but those are my symptoms exactly.
I was like, I love my life, I love my freedom,
and most importantly, I was obviously concerned about finances, right,

(22:49):
Like we had the perfect salaries for two young kids
that just got married, but adding a kid, I was
just like, that is so expensive, and so I and
of course I saw how my mom like literally shifted
her career or her life, her goals for us and
for my dad, and I just wasn't ready to do
anything like that. And I will honestly say one of
my try not to admit this to myself, but one

(23:10):
of my main reasons for not even pursuing medicine again
was I was just like, well, I'm a mom now,
so I guess I'll just stick with this career, you know.
And that was a very that was a raw response
for me, and I just I didn't really know how
to wrestle with it. But kind of like similar to
your situation, my husband was just ad amazed, just like,
we can do this, It's fine. And of course when

(23:30):
you told his parents, then you've got that added pressure
of other people saying like we can help you. And
I'm like, okay, but you're not going to be in
the house with us, like you know, we're not going
to raise my kid for me. So and I very
well knew, just like watching my family members with their
kids that it was. It was a big change. And
to your point, I was not ready for it, and
I did not want to. I did not want to

(23:52):
be ready for it, right. I didn't want to be
ready for it.

Emily Tisch Sussman (23:54):
And I have to say that in the end, it
has really made me double down and feel very solidified
in my own pro choice stance because I didn't necessarily
want any of my three kids, and I felt surprised.
I was surprised by all of them, and in every
way I was afraid to move to the next phase,

(24:15):
but may I contemplated it, and so by the time
I had them, even though it was scary, I had
made the choice, Like I felt affirmed in that choice,
and it was still really hard. Yeah, And I can't
imagine having to be in that position and having not
made that choice having it forced upon me, because then
I would also resent them and be a terrible mother. Yeah,

(24:40):
and maybe unprepared for it. So it really solidified that
position within me. Yeah, that's so good, and you know,
I will be honest. We had actually like flown said
Lanta because at the time, of course Louisiana, like people
don't know this, but Louisiana has never been a place
where you could easily get abortion care. And so we
had flown Atlanta, Georgia, and we were eating at a

(25:01):
p of Changs and I like had every intention on
having this abortion. And that is when Landon told me, well,
if you don't want the baby, then just give it
to me. And that was kind of like the final
moment of us kind of like going back and forth
on this and constantly arguing about this baby. And I
remember thinking, you know, it's my choice and if I

(25:22):
want and looking back, like, especially because Georgia is such
a you know, just as much a band state as Louisiana.
Now I'm grateful that at least in that moment, like
even though it was my husband pressuring me, I still
knew I had a choice. I could very well just
say no, dude, I'm not listening to you, but I'm grateful.
And my heart goes out to other people who don't
have this choice, that it is forced upon them, because
what does that do to your mental health?

Kaitlyn Joshua (25:42):
What does that do to all so many things? But
in that moment, I knew I had a supports system
back home, and I knew that, you know, if Landa
was saying that he was gonna help me with a kid,
then then let's do it. But I wonder how it
would have been, you know, if I didn't get an
opportunity to fly Atlanta, eat pf changs, figure it out,
talk it out, you know what I mean, and really
be in a situation where I was forced to have

(26:05):
a baby regardless.

Emily Tisch Sussman (26:06):
Right, Sometimes you have to go through the hard piece
like that to go because then you really contemplate it,
and then you end up in a much more solidified position,
like I really believe this, like whether it's having the baby,
you know, any other sort of hard decision, because you
really contemplated it, so you end up much stronger in
the end. Absolutely, after you had the baby, did you

(26:27):
then think okay we could do it again? Yeah?

Kaitlyn Joshua (26:31):
Oh no, after having born you know, and like immediately after.
I just wanted to kind of take it slow, Like
I knew that it was going to be such again
a life change, and it would take a lot of
self work for me to be able to kind of,
you know, assimilate into this new role and get used
to life with working and being mom and having all

(26:53):
these different societal pressures. And so I took my time
with that.

Emily Tisch Sussman (26:58):
When we come back, Caitlyn talk about their decision to
get pregnant again and the horrors that unfolded. So you've
made the decision that you're ready to have the second baby.

(27:19):
How quickly were you able to get pregnant? Was your
pregnancy similar to your first? Do you have those same pains? Yeah?

Kaitlyn Joshua (27:25):
So, I when we finally decided that we wanted to
have a second baby, we tried for a while, and
I remember I had miscarried like once or twice before
we finally had a bible pregnancy past four weeks, to
be honest, and that was the pregnancy that I had
in I guess it was June of twenty twenty two
when I first found out that I was expecting, So

(27:47):
end of June, early July, and I'd called my provider's
office at the time, because, like I said in this interview,
I found out Aboutlauren at the doctor's office. Since I
was used to having that personable relationship with my provider
where I could just call and say, hey, this is happening,
see me, you know. And so when I called to
schedule that appointment and get seen right away, the medical

(28:10):
assistant the scheduler told me right away, hey, we're not
seeing people until twelve weeks. And I was not privy
to that answer. I never got that before, even with
the previous miscarriages, where I wanted to call and just
like check up on myself and make sure I was good,
and I expressed my physician what was going on. It
was always a really open relationship, like we were really
good about checking with each other. My twin sister sees

(28:32):
the same physician, so I would send word through him
her sometimes to be able to talk to him. And
I didn't recognize this new kind of door being slammed
in my face, if you will, where the scheduler was
just like, he's not going to see you till twelve weeks,
but you know, we can put you on the books.
And so that was kind of like the begetting or
kind of like foreshadowing my experience with that pregnancy.

Emily Tisch Sussman (28:53):
The writing was on the wall just a few months
prior Roe v. Wade was repealed and immediately stated like
Louisiana systematically stripped away women's rights to their own bodies.

Speaker 3 (29:04):
Today is a it's not HYPERBOLEUS exsts a very solemn moment.
Today the Supreme Court of the United States expressly took
away a constousor right from the American people that had
already recognized. They didn't limit it, they simply took it away.

(29:26):
It's never been done to write so important to so
many Americans.

Kaitlyn Joshua (29:30):
Right tonight, the fallout from the Supreme Court ruling about
abortion rights is growing.

Emily Tisch Sussman (29:34):
This after three straight days of protests across America.

Kaitlyn Joshua (29:37):
Week, Louisiana lawmakers advanced a bill that would categorize abortion
as murderer. Persons are deemed unworthy of legal protection for
no other reason that they are not yet born.

Speaker 3 (29:48):
Now standing up for abortion rights, some with very personal
reasons for showing.

Kaitlyn Joshua (29:53):
Up, and I know that there will effect work in
class Black women and people more than anybody else. You've
got to show out this. The man joined his wife
and daughters. This is absolutely a human rights issue. So
when I found out I was pregnant in the summer
of twenty twenty two, called to schedule that appointment. I
did go ahead and schedule it, and I want to
clarify that that put it on the book. Said fine,

(30:14):
you know, I didn't love the answer. I'd actually called
a couple providers in the area to see if somebody
else would say something different. So it's like, let me
see if everybody else doing the same thing. And so
finally my husband I made it home from work that
evening and he said, look, if you're calling around town
and everybody's saying the same thing, Caitlin, you might as
well see the provider that you know and that you
love and that you have a relationship with. So it's like, fine,

(30:34):
I'll put it on the books. I'll schedule it, and
that's what I did. So unfortunately write it around ten
weeks and six days. It was the day after my
daughter's birthday party. So when I woke up that next
morning and was covered in blood, like woke up in
a pool of blood, was cramping like nothing I could
describe in words. And I always say, like, I've had

(30:54):
two babies at this point, and the pain and severity
of that situation does not you know, does not compare
to even the labor and delivery that I have with
my son and my daughter. Like it was just it
was awful. And I decided to drive myself to a
hospital that was local to the area. They have a
women's Assessment center is what it's called at most facilities,

(31:15):
And so I went ahead and drove myself to that
hospital and I called Land and in the car and ironically,
I was on a zoom call. I was like, why
the hell am I working? But I told my asse.
I was like, I need to clock out and I
need to handle something and I'll get back on when
I can. And so I called Lane and I said, hey,
this is what's happening. I'll keep you posting. He's like, yeah, definitely.
He was like, it's probably just stressed from a birthday party.
You were, you know, kind of went crazy, was run

(31:36):
around town getting all these different things. You should have
took it easy, but was seen rather quickly. At that
first hospital. The physician or the nurse practitioner on staff
like brought me in to triage and you know, she's
kind of checking the service and she's like, oh, your
service is still closed. Like even though you're bleeding pretty profusely,
it doesn't mean that this pregnancy is no longer viable.
Just like let's be hopeful. And she was like, it

(31:58):
could be still a viable pregnancy. So I'm to send
you over to the ultrasound tech. So get to the
ultrasound tech, she said, nothing. I will never forget that.
Like literally, I'm just sitting in that room with her
for thirty minutes looking at the ceiling, and she's not
expressing what's going on, and of course like she's maneuvering
the technology across the belly with the cold jel and
not saying anything. And so I was a little discouraged

(32:21):
in that room. Went over to another room where they
you know, kind of have like a little conference, if
you will, with the patients, and so no respectationer walks
over and she says, I can't really tell whether or
not you're miscaring, And I said, well, what do you mean,
Like it's pretty obvious if someone misc caring typically and
understand like you've got to wait, you know, baby heart
stop or can't you know, can't find fetal heart tones,

(32:42):
et cetera. But we had done all those things, so
I wanted to get clarity and she said, well, I
can't tell you if you're still pregnant or if this
is a miscarriage. We're just gonna have to wait and see.
And I said, well, each be able to express something,
and she said no, but I'm praying for you. If
things get worse, you're more than we going to come
back and we can continue to check and see if

(33:03):
you know, this is a viable pregnancy. But you know,
we're sending you home with prayers. And that stuck with
me till this day that she, you know, kind of
just like was avoiding eye contact. It was just like,
we're sending you home with prayers and kind of looking
at the floor and so you are you are bleeding
and they are sending you home, yeah, bleeding in there.
And I was like, and what world do people do this?

(33:23):
You know? I just kept thinking that, like sending me
home to do what? And my discharge papers did not
you know, give some type of care instructions or anything.
It was just nothing. And I remember, you know, laying
in the car and saying, well, she says she can't
tell whether or not. He was like, what do you
mean like this makes sense, and it's like, well, she said,
she can't tell, we'll have to come back.

Emily Tisch Sussman (33:43):
And at any point did they say to you come
back if X happens.

Kaitlyn Joshua (33:48):
No, And I think that was like the wildest part
for me, or the hardest thing for me, is just
like I'm not a medical doctor. How would I know?
And and no given point did she say, you know,
if you're going through because I know, like from previous miscarriages,
if you're going this amount of through this meaning pads,
or if you're bleeding this much, these are the things
to look for. And she didn't say any of that.
She's just like, if it gets worse, if the pain

(34:09):
gets worse, if you're bleeding more, come back. So I
drove myself home and ended up picking up my daughter
a few hours later, picking it up from school, and
you know, went to bed that evening and of course
woke up the next morning and it was worse. The
pain was worse, the amount of blood was significantly more.
And at that point, you know, I saw a mother

(34:31):
login can you take Lauren. She's like, I'm praying my
mom my mother in law around It was like I'm
praying for you. She's a minister so I was like, okay,
that's on brand. But she sent me out the door
with you know, this time, you shouldn't go by yourself,
like at least meet somebody out. I've got more, but
you need to get with somebody. She's like, what if
you lead out behind the wheel? Caitlin like, come on, no.

(34:51):
So I called my mom, who didn't even know I
was pregnant at the time. Now that I'm looking back,
but I called my mom and she said, what do
you I mean your pregnant. I was like, well, I
wasn't going to say anything till twelve weeks because you know,
I was kind of nervous as I've had previous miscarriages.
And she said, well, yeah, I'm there. I'm on the way.
And so she met me at this second hospital and
so did my husband. So I was like, okay, good,

(35:13):
I have two people with me to navigate this. And
I remember, you know, walking into the emergency room because
that's what I decided to walk into this time at
a different hospital because I knew if I went back
to the last one, I didn't want to deal with
her praying for me again. So I walked in and
the security guard was like, oh, my god, whoa. And
I'm sure he saw the amount of blood that I
had all over my jeans, and of course I had

(35:33):
changed before I got there, but didn't realize I'd led
through these jeans again, and so are these different set
of jeans. And so he put me in a wheelchair
because it's just like this is way too much. We
got to put you in a wheelchair. So put me
in a wheelchair, rolls me to the back, and I
got back there pretty quickly, didn't have any way time.
And the first person that came in was a nurse,
and I remember the conversation that she and I had

(35:54):
was absolutely riveting, like it was wild. My mom was
standing there the whole time and was out in the
hallway at this point, just kind of filling in his parents.
And she she walks in and she's like, well, you know,
people come in here miscaring all the time and they
think it's so much blood and they're going to bleed out,
and it's really not that bad. And she said that.
My mom was like, that is not comforting, Like what
are you doing? And she was just like, well, you

(36:17):
know a lot of times, like people misjudge the amount
of blood that they are losing and it's you know,
nothing to be alarmed about, like it's just a miscarriage potentially,
and so my mom was like, oh, okay, well we'll just
wait to hear from the physician. And ultrasound tech walks
in after that, and he was so kind. I remember
he said, you know, my wife and I have seven
children and we've had seven miscarriages. And I knew that

(36:38):
he was trying to like make me feel better about
what this probably was and like let me know I
could try again, and so I appreciated, you know, his comments,
but you know, he did said much more. How unlike
the last ultrasoundtech that I'd seen the previous day, he
was kind enough to just kind of engage with me
and try and keep me calm throughout. And a physician
finally walks in, and I'm thinking she's going to be

(37:00):
just so helpful and like, you know, provide some type
of clarity and comfort or closure, and she walks in
and she says, are you sure you were ever pregnant?
And I said, what do you mean? I was like,
I literally have not had my period in over eleven weeks,
like I know that I'm pregnant. She said, well, no,
this just looks like a cist to me. And my

(37:21):
mom was like, okay, this is ridiculous, like the My
husband was like, what do you mean, like assist and
she's like, well, it doesn't have a heartbeat anymore. And
I remember asking her, well, if it doesn't have a heartbeat,
then this is a miscarriage, and she was like, well,
we can't tell, we don't know. And I said, well, look,
I've had miscarriages before. Can I please just get a
DNC procedure or some type of medication abortion I should

(37:43):
be able to get something like the pain is just unbearable.
And she said no, we're not going to do that
at this time. We're not doing that. And at this point,
my sister's on FaceTime, Like I said, she was in
med school at the time, and she said, kay, like
they're not. She's not going to help you like these
the laws are preventing her. She's not going to give
you the type of kid that you're asking for. Ask
her what you should do, like what you should look

(38:04):
out for, and so I did and she's like, well,
you can take talent a I was like, ma'am, I've
been taking town all for four days I need something else,
Like tilen all is not you know, making me, it's
not releaving any type of pain. And so she said, look,
we're not doing that. Your discharge papers will have care
instructions on it and if you get worse, you could
always come back. And I didn't. I didn't come back

(38:24):
after that, but I remember reading my discharge papers. It
literally said take tal and all and again nothing that
was useful information to help me navigate this miscarriage. And
I remember after that just being so frustrated and discouraged,
and even though I kept bleeding and I kept having
the pain, and every day I'm like sweating it out,
Like this miscarriage is really wearing me out. I remember thinking,

(38:48):
you know, you know what, if I don't make it
through this, and had I know what I knew now,
I probably would have gone back somewhere else, just because
I didn't think it would last as long as it did.
I literally took me. It literally took me right under
two months to fully pass that miscarriage, and like constantly
having a safe face for my kid, you know, wake

(39:08):
up every morning tatnel or leave or whatever I had
on hand. Finally getting you know, some medication that actually,
you know, alleviate some of the pain, which wasn't done
all or leave, but like just trying to use some
of the resources I had available with different medical physician
friends I have. It was rough. It was so rough,
and I didn't want to believe that in the twenty
first century a system could let you down like this.

(39:30):
But that completely changed my worldview and like especially my
outlook on maternal health care in the US. It was like,
it is twenty twenty two, and I am praying that
I don't hemorrhage. I don't, you know, I want to
be here for my kid. I want to be able
to raise my daughter, and here I am like using
the internet and you know, ideas off of social media
on how to navigate a miscarriage and manage a miscarriage

(39:53):
excuse me, without actual medication. It was literally the worst
part of my life. And I've I've tried to do
good job of like blacking out a lot of those
feelings and emotions just because it was just it was.
It was hard. It was really hard, for lack of
a better term.

Emily Tisch Sussman (40:08):
Did she or anyone at any point articulate do you
when you would be considered hemorrhaging to the point of
life threatening or permanent damage, that they would be able
to provide you with adequate care.

Kaitlyn Joshua (40:20):
No, I never got that, And it's so it's it's
frightening to think that, like people are being sent out
into the world to try and like figure this out
at home. And of course, like, not everybody's story ends happily, right,
not everybody. And we've seen the news where you know,
different presularly women of color and other women have been
denied the care and obviously have lost their lives as

(40:41):
a result of trying to navigate this on their own
and being left without any medical resources. And so yeah,
it's extremely difficult to see that in the Again, the
twenty first century and twenty twenty five were still up
against that vagueness within the law that doesn't provide for
a physician to be able to use their expertise.

Emily Tisch Sussman (41:02):
Caitlin is just one of thousands of women who have
had dangerous and traumatic experiences surrounding their pregnancies. Many of
them wanted their pregnancies too, and still when their nightmare
becomes a reality and their life is at risk, these
states are preventing them from getting the care they need.

Kaitlyn Joshua (41:19):
The only thing that really made sense was the loss
of the time. Obviously, this is right after the overturn
of row, and I want to make that clear just
in terms of timeline, because I'm in this situation in
the fall of twenty twenty two, and so I understand,
like I'm sure, there was confusion and chaos and probably
still is in terms of how physicians are interpretating the laws.
And we've seen that very clearly with the amount of

(41:41):
physicians that have come down to the capital or lobbyed
or advocated against these laws that are preventing them from
using their medical expertise. And I know in that moment,
just when in the language that the physician used like no,
we're not doing that at this time, No, I can't
do that, I'm not able to do that at this moment,
it definitely her fear in being able to give that

(42:02):
care in that moment. And of course those laws have
not changed, and so we're still seeing so many women
across the state and in all band states being denied
that very important medical care because of the fear factor.
Physicians don't want to lose their medical licenses, the licenses
they work so hard to get. And also you know
there's the fear of serving time for it. Right, there's

(42:24):
real jail time and consequences, criminal consequences to be had
should you break the laws. And I know that they
have to think about that first, which is sad. And
in that moment, I know that physician the fear she
had on her face, the physician and the medical provider
the day before, like not being able to look me
in the eye and just say like, I can't do
that at this moment.

Emily Tisch Sussman (42:44):
Is there a difference between these procedures like a DNC
or abortion medication to be used for an abortion or
to be used for a miscarriage because there a difference
in the medication. Is there a difference of a usage.
It sounds like by that point you are already qualified
for We're just treating the mother and we're not touching abortion.
So do you know if there is a difference.

Kaitlyn Joshua (43:08):
And I say, unfortunately, because that is the issue, right
There isn't a difference if you require abortion care, whether
it's a miscarriage or an elective abortion. At the end
of the day, it's still an abortion. Even though miscarriage
has the medical term of spontaneous abortion, it still doesn't
provide cover for a physician to be able to use

(43:29):
that expertise. But I will also say that there is
a way around it, right because we do know in
the state of Louisiana, if you cite it as miscarriage management,
even though you know a DNC procedure is still used
in elective abortions, it is also used for miscarriage management.
Same with mith forpristone and mysoprostal. These are medications that

(43:49):
are not only used for abortion care, but a myriad
of different ways and for many different illnesses and issues
related to healthcare. And so there is a way to
check the box that allows for a physician to use
their medical license and their discretion when needed and when necessary,
versus you know, explicitly saying that, explicitly stating that it's

(44:11):
abortion care, which flags the state to think that this
is an elective abortion and folks are figuring it out.
I think the frustration and the confusion comes in with
the vagueness of the law because it specifically says you
cannot provide this care hard stop. A lot of the
physicians that aren't necessarily well seasoned or not have been
doing it for decades have not figured out how to

(44:34):
again and protect themselves and their career while also putting
patient first. Whereas I've also seen other physicians that are
able to say no, I can do that and check that,
you know, check a box of saving life of mother
without even coming up against the law and the intricacies
of the law. And so it is in all that
to say, I don't think, actually I know, it is
not a lack of education, because I think a lot

(44:56):
of times, like a certain political party likes to suspend
this as they just need better understanding of the law.
They just need a little bit more help in understanding
the intricacies of the law and the implications. And it's
not that it is strictly that the law does provide
for the state to use its discretion or whether or
not they want to prosecute or find or strip the

(45:17):
license of a physician based on their medical decision. And
so until we get rid of that exception, if you will,
we get rid of that vagueness, folks are going to
continue to operate with this patchwork of decision making.

Emily Tisch Sussman (45:30):
Caitlyn's story embodies so much of what we talk about
here on She pivots how she went through something deeply
personal only to come out of it on the other side,
motivated to use that experience to pivot. Building on her
background as an organizer, Caitlyn has used her story to
advocate for other women who have been through and will
be impacted by the same harmful laws that hurt her.

(45:52):
She has spoken in front of the Senate.

Kaitlyn Joshua (45:54):
Thank you Chairman Widen for having me, and ranking Member
Crepo and members of the Senate Finance Committe for having
me here today. My name is Caitlin Joshua, and I'm
from Louisiana. I'm here to talk about my own experience
under extreme abortion bands in my home states, soon after
the Supreme Court eliminated the federal right to abortion care
more than two years ago, and the problems.

Emily Tisch Sussman (46:15):
We stood on stage at the Democratic National Convention and
shared her story.

Kaitlyn Joshua (46:19):
Two emergency rooms sent me away because of Louisiana's abortion ban.
No one would confirm that I was miscaring. I was
in pain, bleading so much. My husband feared for my life.
No woman should experience what I endured, but too many have.
They write to me saying, what happened to you, happened

(46:42):
to me.

Emily Tisch Sussman (46:43):
Sometimes It has turned her pain into purpose as the
co creator of Abortion in America, which she created alongside
the late Cecil Richards.

Kaitlyn Joshua (46:51):
Journey this year and beyond. And the scope is kind
of large, and a lot of folks have asked me, like,
what is the goal of abortion in America? It's kind
of old one. We want a play and space in
which these stories live well beyond the twenty four hour
news cycle, because we saw even like with elections, right,
like people come and go on these issues, and where
are we making sure that these stories are housed and

(47:11):
live forever? And most importantly helped thems like identify that
it you know, well sourced storytellers that want to share
your story, that want to get the word out ultimately
change hearts and minds, which is what we know we
got to do to change policy right and to change
the real impacts that the word based there and helping
people navigate their state and you know, their states apportion

(47:33):
bands and understanding the implications that it has on their
own health. And this is really where I feel like
to get two religious on y'all, But like where the
Lord wants me, you know, and I always like, you know,
pray about that and think about that, like where should
I be? How can I be? Making change in someone
else's life, And had it not been for me going
through that terrible low point in my life, it would
not have led me to this high point of being

(47:54):
able to be a helper, which is so important to me.
We have a lot of listeners of reproductive age.

Emily Tisch Sussman (47:59):
Do you think that as they're finding an OBI that
works for them, as they try to become pregnant or
become pregnant, that they should ask this question about you know,
sort of push the doctor like, you know, what would
you do in this scenario? Like is that something that's
happening now? I mean it's it's puts the onus on
the scared pregnant person, which is insane, it is, Yeah,
And is it stayed by state at this point? Like

(48:20):
what can someone do to navigate this if they're in
this situation in this moment.

Kaitlyn Joshua (48:25):
Yeah. I love that question because I think about it
often and I even thought about it with my son.
The first question I asked my medical provider when I
walked in the room, and in fact, she finished the sentence.
So I decided to go an hour away, which sounds crazy,
but I decided to go an hour away for my
pregnancy with Liam, my one and a half year old,
because I did not want to be seen by the

(48:45):
medical providers or kind of operate within the medical system,
healthcare system and band rouge because I had been failed
by them, right and not to hold a grudge, but
like it is what it is, and I knew that
if we were talking about my life or potentially what
happened throughout my pregnancy, I wanted to be under the
care of someone who would act immediately to save my life,

(49:05):
who would not have to try and you know, navigate
a specific law or not want to use their expertise
in training for fear of criminalization. And so for me,
that was the first thing I did. I researched medical
providers in the state that believes in abortion care, that
you know, utilized the full aspect of reproductive health care.
And I landed in New Orleans, which is an hour
from my house, and even my sister at the time,

(49:26):
she helped me research, particularly women of color physicians or
you know women in general. Home. I mean, ironically, I
ended up with an awesome white lady who was so progressive
and so liberal in her worldview. We have such a
deficit of black doctors in the Saita Louisiana. Everybody's trying
to get in with them, right, like, you don't we
have such few of them, and so I couldn't get

(49:46):
in with the one that I really wanted, and so
I researched one more and landed with this physician in
New Orleans. And the first thing I asked her when
I walked through the door was do you believe in
abortion care? And to finish my sentence, she was like, look,
not only do we believe in abortion care, we operate,
you know, with our full scope of work. Within the
full scope of our work, I utilize my extraduc in
training to whatever degree that I need to use it

(50:07):
if it means saving my patience, and we will always,
you know, act with that first. And she even had
a pin on her her scrubs that was like abortion care.
And I was like, yes, I'm in the right place.
And so to that, I say, yes, you have to be.
And not to say, like everybody has like the privilege
to be able to go hour away and lose time
on work and like technically going an hour ways like
what three hours off the clock, and so not to

(50:29):
say you have to go to that, you know, grave
of length, but grade of length, but certainly do your homework,
ask that question, and if you don't like your answer,
you need you very well sure better find someone else
because your life is too valuable. And I think it's
important for us to center women and birthing people in
this conversation. A lot of times we just hear about baby,
but we're important too, and it's important that we have

(50:50):
physicians that are making sure that we are Our health
is paramount when they're practicing. And there's nothing wrong with
asking all the questions, doing your research and making sure
that you're in good hands.

Emily Tisch Sussman (51:02):
What is something It could be somethove talked about before,
or something different, something that at one point you saw
as a low point, but now you see it as
having really been formative to who you are today.

Kaitlyn Joshua (51:11):
I would have to say navigating my miscarriage. It was
such a low point in my life, and I will
be honest, like it changed so much of my relationship
with my husband. We both had to go to therapy,
were both still in therapy, and my husband for a
while had turned to some really unhealthy habits. And it
was such a difficult moment. Because folks, of course, like here,

(51:32):
they may hear about your miscarriage. They may not, but
they definitely don't see the aftermath and kind of the
domino effect of going through something so traumatic. And so
I would definitely say that was the lowest point in
my life and for the people around me, was probably
difficult for them, having to navigate the new Caitlin, the
new Land and after coming you know, on the other
side of it. And so definitely lowest point. And I

(51:54):
would say, ironically like it kind of like led me
to a high point, which is in this moment where
I'm at advocating for women's healthcare. Do you think you'll
pivot again? I do. I think I will pivot again,
but I won't leave behind reproductive health care. What I'm
doing with it, or how I show up to the work.
They look different, but I certainly feel like this is

(52:17):
my life's mission and goal to make sure that I'm
amplifying black maternal health care and reproductive healthcare in general.
Thank you so much, Caitlin.

Emily Tisch Sussman (52:25):
Of course, Caitlyn still lives in Louisiana with her husband
and two children, and it's continuing to advocate for reproductive freedom.
As the co creator of abortion in America that is
providing real stories about the devastating impact of the abortion
band and how those restrictions pose a threat to the
well being of all pregnant women. If you want to

(52:48):
spread the word and share these stories, you can visit
their website at Abortionanamerica dot org. You can also stay
up to date with Caitlin on her Instagram at katet Joshua.
Thanks for listening. Thanks for listening to this episode of
she Pivots. I hope you enjoyed it, and if you did,
leave us a rating and tell your friends about us.

(53:10):
To learn more about our guests, follow us on Instagram
at she pivots the Podcast, or sign up for our
newsletter where you can get exclusive behind the scenes content
on our website at she pivots thepodcast dot com. This
episode was produced and edited by Emily Atavelosk, with sound

(53:31):
editing and mixing from Nina Pollock, Audio production and social
media by Hannah Cousins, research by Christine Dickinson, and logistics
and planning by Emma Stopic and Kendall Krupkin. She Pivots
is proud to be a part of the iHeart Podcast Network.

Kaitlyn Joshua (53:47):
I endorse she Pivots