August 6, 2025 • 47 mins
Tony Award–winning actor and writer Sarah Jones has built a career blending culture, politics, and humor — all while embodying a kaleidoscope of unforgettable characters. In our final live episode recorded at the Aspen Ideas Festival, Sarah joins Emily for a conversation about her groundbreaking podcast, America, Who Hurt You?, which puts the nation on the “therapy couch” to explore our shared values and cultural divides. She reflects on key moments that shaped her journey, from growing up in a multicultural, mixed-race family in Queens to performing on Broadway. Along the way, she introduces the audience to the many voices in her head (and on her stage), reflecting the diverse perspectives that make up America. Sarah also opens up about the role of social media in our disconnection and emphasizes the urgency of in-person connection.
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She Pivots was created by host Emily Tisch Sussman to highlight women, their stories, and how their pivot became their success. To learn more about Sarah, follow us on Instagram @ShePivotsThePodcast or visit shepivotsthepodcast.com.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Sarah Jones (00:00):
Welcome back to she Pivots. I'm Sarah Jones.
Emily Tisch Sussman (00:13):
Welcome back to she Pivots, the podcast where we talk
with women who dare to pivot out of one career
and into something new and explore how their personal lives
impacts these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. Today
(00:34):
we have another special candid conversation recorded live here at
the Aspen Ideas Festival. Maybe you can hear the Aspen
trees and streams behind me where I'm sitting down with
some of the world's foremost leaders, innovators, and creators. Today's
my conversation with Sarah Jones, Tony Award winning writer and
actress and host of the podcast America Who Hurt You?
Sarah Jones (00:58):
I'm so excited. She Pivots is one.
Emily Tisch Sussman (00:59):
Of the inaugural audio first media companies to partner with
the Festival. It was invigorating to be among brilliant leaders
and thinkers from around the globe to discuss and hear
the ideas that'll shape tomorrow and help us understand today.
Over the next few weeks, you'll hear live candid conversations
(01:20):
from inspiring women recorded here at the festival from geopolitical issues,
to economic issues, to cultural issues and beyond. Each interview
connects to the larger cultural moment we're in, and of course,
interweaves their personal lives. I hope you walk away feeling
as inspired and determined as I did to continue to
(01:40):
share our stories and experiences to change the cultural landscape
for a better tomorrow.
Sarah Jones (01:46):
Let's jump right in.
Emily Tisch Sussman (01:52):
Okay, knowing that I have thirty two minutes, I might
read our intro and then change this a little bit.
Sarah Jones (01:58):
Just for the record. I love that we might. This
is your canva. We're doing it, we do exactly, We're
doing it live. We're doing it live, Okay, the whole point.
Emily Tisch Sussman (02:06):
We are here at the Asman Ideas Festival with the
incredible Sarah Jones, a Tony Award winning actor and writer
whose work lives at the intersection of culture and politics,
something that feels vaguely familiar here on this podcast. She
is the host of the podcast America Who Hurt You,
where she explores the current state of America through mix
(02:28):
of personal narratives, political commentary, and humor, all of which
we are in need for these days.So welcome Sarah.
Sarah Jones (02:35):
Collective sigh of relief slash sharp intake of breath, like
I feel like we're It's very both and right now,
and I'm so happy to be with you.
Emily Tisch Sussman (02:44):
This is perfect. I'm so happy. We were just discussing
that you are now a member of my family.
Sarah Jones (02:50):
Essentially, I have to over the last threatening to move in.
I'm going to her mom's apartment. I'm over here on
the podcast. You may know that we just adopted a
puppy yesterday. Well, I have some puppy like tendons. I
just went that we're in the adopting mode where we're adding.
This is what I'm trying to say. I think America
that we are in a maximalist moment in a good way.
(03:13):
And I'm glad that we're having this conversation here at
Aspen Ideas, because yeah, America, who hurt you? Started out
it was like a joke. It was like, yes, America,
girl who herd too? Like what are we doing? And
then it was like painfully clear that we actually need
to put America on the therapy couch. And now we're
doing it live, which I got to do in front
of a wonderful audience, including you, And it makes a
(03:34):
huge difference to have this crackling energy that you and
I get to have and then share with the listeners.
That's the goal with season two of America Who Hurt You?
Is this combination of live experience and you know, people
being able to listen while they wash their dishes or
whatever it is.
Emily Tisch Sussman (03:50):
Well, there's something so incredibly important in this moment, in
this post covid post post covid of irl. Yes, in person,
we have to experience things together. We are pack animals, Yes,
we exactly. And the thing is, you know, I have
one character. So the show, the podcasts, you know, sometimes
(04:12):
you'll listen and there's a panel to certain podcasts and
that helps to inform the conversation. In my case, the
panel all live within me. My joke is that we
are sort of she pluribus unham, all of these people
in one body. They are based on my real family members.
And if you if you're hearing any sound effects is
because they are making their appearances. So if you're if
(04:35):
you're watching any of this.
Sarah Jones (04:36):
I'm obsessed with this well packed prop you have coming
out here. This is incredible. This is like the Swiss
Army Knife of props of your characters. So and here,
so let's so, so we just met me. I'm Sarah. Okay,
so here we go. I'm Lorraine. I already know you.
Emily Sweethood. We are related. We listen more than I
(04:58):
don't know about shared. It definitely related. But that's a joke,
because Sarah is. She jokes that she bases her characters
loosely on a real family. She comes from a mixed race,
multicultural black and white and Latino and Caribbean and on
the white side, Jews and Christians into married some of
(05:21):
you at the no, but we say it's a long
story filled with intrigue and into faith guilt. You know,
this is what happened anyway. The point is that all
of us, who may seem to be from very different
books of life, we are actually connected as a family.
And so yes, of course we should all adopt each other. Sorry,
(05:44):
that's incredible, that's the right. She really is based on
a real great aunt of mine, and it is true
that my family. You know, I'm a black woman of
a mixed race experience, and I grew up in Queens,
New York, and that gave me a certain sense of
connectedness to everyone in you know, everyone on the bus
that I rode to school. I felt connected to them
(06:05):
in some way.
Emily Tisch Sussman (06:07):
So I'm very interested on the timing and your thinking
going into America. Who hurt you? So you launched it
exactly a year ago? So a year ago July, So
July twenty twenty four. I'm not sure when you conceived
of the show or when you started filming.
Sarah Jones (06:22):
But yeah, the time time is interesting. If we can
all take ourselves back to July a year ago? Can
we please? Who's got the time machine we need? We're
doing all this AI, what about the time travel that
we need? People? I know respect us, please tech world
to give us the time the people what we're extually.
But the timing was I was what were people saying
(06:43):
back then? Nauseously optimistic, like I was hopeful that we
as a country. I don't think of this as a
of course, it's political because life is political. Right. If
you're a woman walking around, you kind of want to
have your rights, You want to be able to control
your own body. Maybe I don't know, it's just the thought,
and so for some people it's politics. Before a lot
of us it's what makes life, liberty and the pursuit
(07:05):
of happiness even possible. So I think of us as
you know Americans in the biggest sense of wanting to
have our freedom's respected and all of that, and so
I was hoping that's where we were headed November fifth,
and then so I had already conceived of the idea
of America who hurt you? And I'll let one other
person maybe chime in. Let me see who's gonna come. Okay, Hi, Emily,
(07:30):
my name is Bella, and it's amazing to be here
at ask of an ideas. I'll just quickly say I
know Sarah Jones because she came to my school like
when I was in college to do like a pluralism workshop.
And I'm a feminist and I was majoring double majoring
feminism and social media. Well actually its feminism and social
(07:54):
justice minoring in social media, sorry, but like with a
concentration on notable TikTok memes. And I think that's super
like important considering that, like you could argue that TikTok
and like social media kind of like decided the election
as much as anything else. So like I feel like
that's what we were all thinking about. Obvi, it's been Yeah,
(08:16):
it's chaotic right now, Okay, So that's Bella. She is chaotic.
But I bring these voices to the fore so we
can have a conversation about where we are. And at
the time, I thought we were all going to be
talking about what's next in terms of our democracy and
more human flourishing, I don't know, more access to healthcare
and you know, educational programs for kids. I didn't think
(08:39):
we were going to go in the opposite direction. So
that was kind of when I think when I put
myself in.
Emily Tisch Sussman (08:44):
Your heads like in my own headspace at that time,
and even the concept of this show that I'm.
Sarah Jones (08:49):
Thinking about, how do we move how do we move culture?
Like I spent almost twenty years working in federal policy,
Like I used to change laws. Bless you, thank you
for doing that. Well, I now said a podcast studio
and look at characters, so you know, like my life
has taken a chance. But you know, like that was
changing laws, and now I think about moving culture, and
it's so different. It's longer, it's harder, it's slower, it's personal.
Emily Tisch Sussman (09:13):
People have to feel connected, they have to take it
out of the political for people to feel connected to
it at all. And something that I thought, so I
looked at your lineup, I looked at your episodes. I
looked at your timing and I thought, Okay, she thought
she was moving culture forward.
Sarah Jones (09:27):
I get it. We hoped that we were moving in
a particular direction.
Emily Tisch Sussman (09:31):
Yes, yes, So one, I'm interested what you did after
the election, like how you changed it or didn't. But
also something that I thought was interesting during your first
episode is that your guest in your first episode made
this comment sort of along the lines of like, well,
I do culture and it's long and it's slow, and
regardless of the electoral outcome, I will be here and
(09:51):
we will be moving, which is a really nice thing
to say if you think you're actually gonna win.
Sarah Jones (09:55):
I know it sounds so quack. Now. No, I was like,
does she today I think the election will the same
either way. No, And I just have to say, like
our joke, it's not a joke, right of Like putting
America on the therapy couch is like when you watch
someone who's super self destructive and you want to be like, girl,
I love you have so many positive qualities. You really
really have to talk to someone like That's where I
(10:16):
feel America is at this point. And I will also
say optimism and humor go together. Being in a room
together is the shift that we've made. And we originally
launched America Who Hurt You with a live event in
New York, and after the election, I thought we need
to be together, Like, yes, the podcast is amazing. I'm
so grateful that I have people in rural you know,
(10:38):
communities who reach out and say, you know, I have
a bubby too. I'm the only one in my town.
But you know, it's nice to hear yours. That's all great,
but when we are in a room together, it adds.
It's very both and I feel like this moment we're
in is like, yes, do the digital thing, Like, let's
find out how social media is impacting all of our lives.
And that's one of the things we do in the show,
(10:59):
as you now know, is we literally give people hacks
for like, if you're struggling with being on your phone
at three am, doom scrolling and then like trying to
cycle back to some cute puppies and then you're back
to the doom, we have a hack for that. So
part of it is the practical, you know, as you
say on here, right, how do how do people's politics
and personal lives? What is that connection? And we're kind
(11:21):
of talking about how our collective experience as a country.
Not everybody lives through trauma. Not everybody lives through the
same you know, roller coaster ride as an American traumatizing,
but this moment as an American thank you for saying that,
because but let me just say, Emily, a lot of
people don't identify with that. A lot of people are like,
I'm not I don't feel trauma. And then I say
to them, well, you're from New York. Did you live
(11:42):
through nine to eleven? And they're like, oh, yeah, that
was bad, Or hey, did you live through a pandemic
in the last five years? Because I did it, and
they're like, oh, write that part, or like school shootings,
like worrying about what you're gonna wake up to, worrying
about your kids. It's traumatic, right, And so what I
realized is our politics are being driven by our trauma
to a certain extent, Like we're all so anxious and
(12:03):
depressed or like trying not to be that way, and
then we're going into the voting booth in fight flight,
you know, freezepawn and we don't even know we're not
breathing all day, and that hurts our politics. But Also,
it's not just that our trauma is driving our politics.
It's that our politics drives our trauma. When you wake
up to your neighbor's be I live in La now
and from New York, but literally my you know, neighbors
(12:24):
are being snatched off the street. That is traumatic. It's
really terrifying to watch new cycles of traumatized people, you know,
Like I'll give you an example. Hi, Emily, my name
is Neeva. We got to me yesterday. But as a
Latina first of all, sour Jones has cousins from Dominican Republic,
et cetera, and so she is very close to this issue.
Even though this country a lot of the time we'll
try to tell us that we're all separate and we're
(12:45):
all different and bad people are coming across the border
blah blah lah. And the truth is, if you look
at the real history of this country immigrants. We're all immigrants.
Like let's say your last name was Drump and then
you change it to Trump. That's German. I'm sorry to
tell you, but I studied the history. Your name is not,
you know, like red Bear. So if you're not Native American,
(13:05):
all of us have an immigrant story and we need
to be honest about why are we doing the things
that we're doing right now? Who is it really helping
and is it really protecting anybody's freedom or are we
letting the facts go out the window completely and then
losing our humanity which, by the way, there's this concept
of moral injury and the politics of right now, we
think that we can look away or step over that
(13:26):
unhoused person who's kicked out of their house because they
have no health care. We think that doesn't touch us.
But actually even the neuroscience and the you know, mental
health field is showing us that there is a secondary
moral injury, there is secondary trauma. We don't want that
as a country anyway. As you can tell, one day,
maybe Nedea will run for office if she stays safe
(13:46):
and doesn't get kicked out of the country to someplace
that you know, she's a citizen, but she's terrified to
leave her house and go get groceries right now.
Emily Tisch Sussman (13:53):
So, how do you think about moving culture right now?
Like where where are you trying to move culture? What
are your levers of change and have they changed in
the last year?
Sarah Jones (14:02):
Yeah, so you know what's wild One of the characters
who has become essential to me. Now is a man
named Hank. I don't even think he got to come
out yesterday, but he is someone who described himself as
a European American rights advocate. But I'll let him speak
for himself. Look, she wants to try to turn people
against me before I can even say my name. My
(14:22):
name is Hank. I'll say this, I'm an American. I
know other people call themselves Americans. I don't know what
their legal status, illegal, everything she talks about with the
immigration and all of that. Sure, my family came here,
you know, we are from half my family Norway and
half of them I think something English or something like that.
(14:44):
But as far as I'm concerned, I don't say I'm
just nothing. I used to say that and she'd make
fun of me. I'm just American and I don't agree
with the things Sarah Jones talks about and half of
her people or whatever she wants to call it. You know,
I'm a man she brings out here and she calls
it a one woman. That's the problem right there. But
as far as I'm concerned, I want this country to succeed,
(15:05):
and I wanted to prosper and I've voted for the
current president twice. I think he has a lot of
great qualities, but I am concerned about where we are
right now. I'm not going to lie to you and
when all the jobs that I work for va and
I'm disappointed in some of his choices. Elon. I've never
been fan of Elan. I don't care about those funny
(15:26):
looking cars. I don't care if you sell them on
the White House lawn. I'm not impressed. So I just
want this country to be safe and I want to
live up to what it should be for the people
who belong here. So as you can hear, Hank and
I do not see I own everything. But I'm taking
this around the country, the live version of America Who
hurt You? So we can all have a conversation. Maybe
(15:48):
it turns into debate, but the idea is to maintain
our sense of humor. And I want people like Hank
to understand that all he wants is the same thing
Nedeva wants. Her family, you know, came here, work hard,
and they deserve to be able to flourish. His family
works hard, deserves to be able to flourish. So where
are we getting to this conflict that is ripping the
(16:10):
country apart, and we're now at a point where I'm scared.
I'm scared not just for my neighbors, but you know
part of what happened with this America. Who hurt you
project you can't well, maybe you can see me if
you're watching this, but I have, you know, dark brown skin.
I'm black from a distance. I have some people would
call it a ju fro, but it's more fro, and
(16:30):
I have big, curly hair. I used to straighten it
because it made me feel safer to not seem like
I'm you know, pushing things too far in a direction
that isn't American enough, right. So I realized that part
of me that was always scared I used to stop.
If you ever look for it, you can find my
ted Tolks and some of the other things that I've
done online in the past. And I would lead with
(16:53):
this accent. Now positive is that I play different characters
and it's fun for me. But I realized, and you
were talking about the pivot, what is that pivot? I
realized for years I was leading with this because I
got better treatment and I felt safer than being a
regular black American. And when I bring that up and
talk about that. I realized everybody in the country right
(17:15):
now is going through different kinds of pivots and reckonings
because I think we are at a new place. We
really do have to ask ourselves who do we want
to be as a country? Does the constitution mean anything
to us? And if it does, what are we doing
right now?
Emily Tisch Sussman (17:30):
So a lot of what people are talking about is
you reference this with the social media but silos that
the way that people are getting information right now is
self congratulatory. There's a confirmation bias, confirmation bias that like
you just seek out what confirms your own bias already,
and that's actually gone now beyond opinion into news as well, and.
Sarah Jones (17:51):
It seeks you out. It's not just that you seek
out what you already believe. The algorithm is like, hey babe,
it's you and me, you know, which is really dangerous.
Yeah yeah, yeah, But so how are you thinking about reaching?
Are you going? Are you going to hank? Are you
going to not get?
Emily Tisch Sussman (18:08):
Like?
Sarah Jones (18:08):
Where are you going? We're going? Hey? Wow? So wow?
Indeed yeah, because she might monstraighten this whatever it is
kind of hairdoo that she's got going on here, because uh,
it's going to make her stick out, all right, and uh, listen,
I'm not here to criticize anybody, but I can tell
you that when people don't agree on the facts, there's
(18:30):
nowhere to go if everybody can see. Sarah Jones talks
about it in terms of because I think she's a
big old lefty, and uh, She'll say, well, if it rained,
that's not left or right. You just have to go
out there and take a measure. Is there precipitation on
the ground or not. I come from a farming background.
I know she's trying. She's trying to peel to me.
(18:51):
My point is that I agree with that. I don't
agree with most of what else she says, but if
you can show me the truth, I'm smart. I can
figure that out.
Emily Tisch Sussman (19:00):
Now.
Sarah Jones (19:00):
She feels like her truth is the only real truth,
and I can tell you in my truth the things
I watch, those things make sense to me. So when
I hear Hank, I get scared because I actually heard this,
and I don't know if it can be corroborated, but
I remember hearing that. With Fox, for example, they specifically
(19:21):
said we're an entertainment brand. Yes there's some news, but
it's entertainment. But what people think is news is all
this opinion that they're getting, and that's that are I
mean when I saw photos, When I see the leader
of the country showing photos that are photoshopped, that's terrifying
to me. And we're now at a place where AI,
(19:44):
you know, kind of exacerbates the problem of what even
is the truth. So I just want to get in
a room with Hank, who reminds me a little bit.
I have an uncle, I had a you know, Republican uncle.
I had a Republican father in law. White guys, older
white guys. I love these people and they love me.
We didn't agree on everything, but it hadn't gotten this extreme.
And so I'm wondering, how do we like moving culture
(20:05):
like you were talking about. I think if people can
see facts on the ground, it moves them. That idea
of rain, if you can see that it rained and
somebody's telling you, nope, that was a hologram, and you'll
start to say, wait a minute, like are you pouring
vy on on me and telling me it's not raining,
Like what are we doing here? And I think as
a country, we also have shared values. Hank doesn't like
(20:28):
watching Jeff Bezos spend fifty million dollars on a wedding
when he can't get packages delivered to his area because
the jobs, you know, aren't secure enough and people won't
come to him with packages, right, So he's seeing the
inequality and the inequities too, but he just thinks they're
Joe Biden's fault. So that's the conversation we want to
have about what are the things we all agree on,
(20:50):
what do we believe to be true? And most Americans
share basic values that you should get, you know, fair
wages for your work, that you should have your privacy.
See that we all believe those things. But then these
sneaky you know, legislation comes through if you call something
that's going to invade your privacy the we like you
a lot bill, and then you hide the part where
(21:12):
they can you know, spread your information and where they want.
That's a problem and we need more checks and balances
to get us on the same page to move culture.
Emily Tisch Sussman (21:26):
Stay tuned for more of Sarah after the break.
Sarah Jones (21:45):
That's a problem and we need more checks and balances
to get us on the same page to move culture.
So how are you going to bring those facts? So
I try to do it through humor because it's not
a rally. I don't want people coming thinking that they're,
you know, going to sit through a news broadcast. We
try to get up there and have a good time,
you know what. I'm gonna bring out one of my buddies.
(22:06):
Let's see if he's got something to say. All right,
what's good, y'all. My name is Roy she Emily. Very
nice to meet you. I love you podcast. I love
the whole vibe. I'm a black male, you know, I'm
interested in everything y'all talking about. And I got to
tell you my experience is different even from Sarah Jones,
(22:26):
you know what I mean, she got her mom got
white privileged. She walked around having a different experience where
she's a child. Ain't no ambiguities about me, you know.
I mean, I know what it is to try to
help people understand something without preaching that. You can't be
preaching that people right now. Don't nobody want to hear that.
Ain't nobody got time for that. So for me, it's like,
don't tell people, Oh, you know, right now, we all
(22:49):
got something called digital dementia, which is true. I'm sorry
to tell y'all that but it means that we're on
our phone so much that we losing our gray matter,
we losing our ability to connect with people. We're hearing
about the loneliness crisis and all this other type of stuff.
Nobody wants to really have to hear all that and
hear about the policies behind all that. But if you
just say to somebody, yo, my dude, I mean, how's
(23:11):
your date in life? And he's like, y'all, I'm like,
you know it's given in cell vibes right now, son,
I can't find nobody all these I'm not gonna use
no language on your should I shouldn't used, but I'm
saying when dudes is lonely, then you could reach them
and be like, son, you know what this is? You?
You know what I mean? You addicted to your phone
and you're gonna get an AI girlfriend. It's not gonna
(23:33):
and yeah, it's that's that's that's not gonna play out
the way you think. That's not the flex you think
it is. So I bring Rashid in to kind of
bring a an emotional human I think about myself. You know,
if you say to me, oh my goodness, they're passing
this thing that's gonna maybe, you know, take away medicaid
from a whole bunch of people. That's different than if
Lorraine says, you know people my age and I won't
(23:59):
tell you my real age, but Emily, you know this.
I like to think of myself as living proof that
over eighty five is the new seventy. I didn't know that.
I think the statistic is something like maybe seventy percent
of older people rely on the nursing homes and the
assisted living and all of these things. They're going to
(24:20):
lose all their they're livelyhood, They're going to lose their
ability to stay healthy. That hits me in my heart.
I'm this shame age. They don't deserve that. They work
to out just like me. So that's the idea is
that if you can see yourself or your relative or
just somebody you can identify with and then hear how
their life is going to be impacted by something that
(24:41):
just maybe isn't a policy that we really want to
vote for, that helps people think in the political and
the personal at the same time. So that's the hope
is that that moves culture.
Emily Tisch Sussman (24:52):
Are you thinking about there being like, is there an interactivity?
Sarah Jones (24:56):
I mean clearly you are not scripted like you have
I am not scripted. You clearly are pulling this all
out as this is unbelievable. I'm truly witnessing magic in
this room right now. Oh thanks Ellily. Well, I would
say with the joke that we make in the show
when people came and saw us performed, we just did
Joe's pub We've been performing all over and we're coming
to a city and a rural area near you, So
(25:18):
come sign up on America Who Hurt You dot com.
That's the other thing. Social media is hard because if
you're saying things that the algorithm doesn't like for some reason,
then you get suppressed, you get shadow band. You can't
say a certain kind of women's healthcare without it being
considered you know, questionable. But so but we're getting people
to sign up so that we can have more irl
(25:40):
connection and have more direct connection that isn't mitigated by
you know, social media platforms that may be trying to
influence our opinion or keep us in that silo that
you were talking about. But the idea is to make
sure all of our voices get heard. I gotta be
(26:00):
completely honest that I lost my place. What do you
think is the role of social media in this connection building?
That's helpful, But what was your question before? It was
so good and I know, I know, I'm I'm so
inch in your answer my question. We can go over okay,
because I'm like, I'm watching hand I'm like, okay, any.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Characters Okay, okay, character pandemonium.
Emily Tisch Sussman (26:38):
After the break more from Sarah character pandemonium.
Sarah Jones (26:55):
So but social media, right, yeah, there's no question that
it has Wait. By the way, we keep all of
this in this is all say, yeah, the chaos is real, y'all.
It's a metaphor for the moment we're in. It's not
to be perfect, but it's real. But it's human human,
It's real. Is there anything better than human messiness? And
I think that also is part of the goal of
(27:17):
America Who Hurt You, is to like stop pretending that
we all have to be these perfect I think about
my friends who are moms. I'm not, I mean, unless
you count the inner children, but I clearly have I'm
not a mom myself, but I look around at my friends.
They're like, they have to be perfect in their businesses.
They're entrepreneurs, they're raising kids, they're you know, They're like
(27:40):
contributing to their communities, it's impossible. And then they're like,
my god, biome and I'm like just the the guy
I cannot. I cannot, like, can we all please give
our gut and the oils? I cannot likes, I mean forget,
I can't. I walked in here, like, where's the turmeric?
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Like everybody calmed down, We're not gonna die if we
don't get turmeric for ten minute. And I think though,
one of the things I love so much about getting
to talk to different people, and we have had like
great guests on and that will still be a part
of it. Hearing Jane Fonda talk about climate I like,
you know, as Bella said, she was like, we.
Sarah Jones (28:14):
Stand like forever, like I'm dead, And it's okay, Bella,
You're embarrassing us in front of Jane Fonda. But you know,
having these wonderful thought leaders and also the audience are
the thought leaders. So we've been doing Q and A.
We get people to you know, kind of open up
and share a little bit about their experiences. We do
breath work in the show, so like we feel like
(28:34):
at this point you got to throw everything at it.
And social media is a huge part of that, yes,
and we know that it's impacting people's ability to connect.
You know, there are kids who, because they were raised
on screens, can't make eye contact and can't hold, you know,
emotional connection in the same way. We don't want that.
We don't and we don't want that for them, and
we don't want it for ourselves. And so there are
(28:55):
ways for social media to be a positive, but we
got to be on that. If it's called the attention
economy and their business model is to get all of
your attention twenty four hours a day, when are you
gonna have any time for yourself? So my suggestion with
America who hurt you is we get into a room
we laugh. Some people are like, it's a comedy show.
(29:17):
I'm like, great, stay with that. I'm gonna give you
the avocado in the brownies. But the good news is
it is fun and it is funny, and we do laugh,
and we give ourselves permission to be messy and imperfect.
And I actually ask people to check in with themselves
when you know, we'll be talking about like did you
hear about this latest thing that happened? Also, the news
(29:38):
cycle is so that's our joke is that I rewrite
the script twice a day, like brushing my teeth, because
you can't keep up with what's happening, so you can't
walk a script right. But what that allows us to
do is be more spontaneous, more in the moment, me
saying to you, I can't remember. I'm in such a spin,
I can't find you know where I started. And that's
(29:58):
so different from the old me. Even almost feel like
this moment has given all of us permission to just
be like girl, like, I don't even know what's going
on right now. I need a wellness break, I need
a bio break, I need a vacation. Like I'm hearing
people talk about giving themselves more leeway, and I'll just
(30:18):
say this, I think some people in leadership did not
grow up with that kind of position, that kind of permission,
rather to be themselves to find healing. Like that's one
of the things with the show is we're gonna laugh
because it's healing. I mean, I'm not gonna tell you that.
I'm not gonna like, you know, take your temperature before
you come in and be like this is an intake form,
(30:38):
it's not a hospital healing. But so much healing comes
through creativity, through art. Some of the all your guests.
When I listen, I'm like, oh my god, these are
people who are bringing that combination of their creative spirit
and how they want to be in the world, how
they want to be part of community. You bring those together,
it's magic. And I don't think we can end up
(31:00):
in you know, as Bella would say, this moment is
like low key, high key, like the amuse boush before authoritarianism.
But we're not. We're not. You know, we still have time,
but let's what are we doing with our time? Like
what are we doing? So I think it's like I
learned in some of my research that the current president,
(31:22):
when he was a little boy, his father screamed at him,
you're a loser. You're a loser. You need to be
a killer. Imagine being seven eight years old and the
person who's supposed to be your caretaker his mother was
ill when he was two, so he lost that connection.
And so this is a person who is a traumatized
child inside. And it's not surprising to me that you know,
they sent him off to military boarding school by the
(31:44):
time he was twelve or thirteen, and so all of
that pain just got calcified in there talk about trauma,
and that trauma is now driving our trauma in my opinion,
So I share stuff like that with the audience just
to humanize and remind us that if we don't intervene
and give all of ourselves more permission to be fully
human and to connect and to heal, we end up
(32:06):
in really scary places.
Emily Tisch Sussman (32:08):
Well, it's been interesting as you've been talking through all
of this and like this moment that we have permission
to be messy and to show so much more and
to be so much more human. I was thinking about
this evolution in myself even and how this has been
I mean I spent a decade as a Fox News
commentator on other networks as well. When we started to
talk about Fox News, I was like, well, yes, I
(32:28):
actually was behind the valley. I was in the middle
of the belly, and everything was about presenting correctly, looking correctly.
I mean I had to be there, you know, at
least an hour and a half for hair and makeup perfect.
Sarah Jones (32:40):
You all are the most perfect looking anchors anywhere. But like,
like you're saying, here you are now you have permission
to be I'd rather the journalist has a hair out
of place, but tells me the straight up, exact facts.
I don't want so called left facts. I don't want
right facts. I just want the facts. And I don't
care if you look perfect. Yeah, but it's a hard
(33:02):
you know, you say the left of the right facts,
it's a hard thing.
Emily Tisch Sussman (33:06):
Everything is about how you frame the question totally. And
so I would do the same segment. You know, if
something was topical in the news, I would do it
on Fox. I would do it on MSNBC, CNN, ABC,
Like I would go through the networks if something was
in news cycle and I'd be talking about it. And
the way they framed the questions was everything. Wow, I
was talking about will the bill pass right?
Sarah Jones (33:26):
What is in the bill? What'll it do for the economy?
Will someone win the election?
Emily Tisch Sussman (33:30):
Right? Like these I mean, these things are more in
my opinion, but you know, or I'd be like commenting
on you know, the global position, like the US position
on inter national affairs. You know, these things were not
necessarily debatable. They would be considered facts. But the questions
I got were framed so differently. The framing was everything.
Sarah Jones (33:46):
It's everything. It's so true. And when you now I'm like,
can I interview you? Though? But it's true because I
think what happens is we get lost. Let's say I
don't know you right, and I'm like, she framed these
questions for Fox like this. It's like, no, Actually, if
you sat in a room with Emily and talk to her,
you would understand so much more about the context and
the framing and everything that's happening. Imagine if all of
(34:09):
us collectively and I don't know that there's a theater
big enough for me to get all three hundred and
however many million Americans we have. But my goal eventually
is film this thing, get it into you know, people's
homes and their living rooms. I don't know if it's
Netflix or Hulu or whatever, but the way we look
at comedy, I think there's so much more potential for
it to like serve us and for us to be
(34:31):
able to laugh and enjoy conversations with each other in
a real room, but then also be able to broadcast
out a conversation that says, hey, you're a human being
and you might have an experience like your dad calling
you loser, or you know, your mom got sick and
so you didn't bond with her or whatever, and for
all you know, that's still driving some of what makes
(34:51):
you so upset today or why you feel unsafe around
people who look different than you. It really is putting
America on the therapy couch in a certain way, but
without the judge, and that we have such harsh, horrible
language that, if you think about it, a lot of
us learned in school, or a lot of us learned
from a culture that bullied folks, you know, for years
and years it was normal. I was talking to somebody
(35:13):
about women and our body image issues and how many
of us grew up with like if you I mean.
I was like, oh my god, I can pinch like
a centimeter of you, you know, and you read that
and whym listen say less as they say. And the
thing about that is all of that. I talked about
it in my own life, like I was on Broadway
for years, and like not years. I was on Broadway
(35:34):
for it felt like years. It was less than a year.
But I did a one person show every night. I
had to be perfect, absolutely perfect, and I couldn't eat
more than this. And the next thing I knew, I
was like, oh, I am so disconnected from myself because
I'm trying to maintain this perfect standard and it was
robbing me of my own joy. I don't think it
(35:55):
helped my marriage. I'm divorced now. But my point is
that everybody in America has these kinds of stories. We're
overworking or we're trying to overperform or look perfect or
whatever it is. And I think that cuts us off
from ourselves, which cuts us off from other people. And
the opposite happens if you connect, if you say, hey,
I feel a little messy. Oh I did some I
(36:15):
have a term for it that I really liked that
I heard, disembodied eating. It means I was having a
feeling and I was like, I don't like this feeling.
I'm gonna be putting that in my mouth right now.
And instead of being right and instead of being like,
oh my god, I'm such a mess I need to
go to the gym for like five hours now, instead
it's like, oh, I guess you maybe overrate a little something.
When's the first time you remember doing that? When I
was five, you know, my parents will be like, here's
(36:35):
some ice cream, you know, don't cry, just relax, And
so none of it's bad, None of it's wrong. It
takes the like moral judgment out of who we are
and how we're living, and it helps us. It's not
that we don't want to take responsibility. I think we
just all want to understand. Oh, people are hurting for
lots of different reasons, and that makes sense. It doesn't
make them bad, it doesn't make them wrong, or they're
(36:58):
lazy and need a better morning routine. It means we're
all in kind of a messy time, and the more
we can accept that and lean into it, the better
off we're going to be.
Emily Tisch Sussman (37:07):
Well. I think this also goes to the role of
social media and all those I honestly, I think people
think about themselves too much right now, and I think
they get it on social media. I think they get
like therapy terms and they compare themselves to others. I
just think people think about themselves way too much, and
then they're not spending time irl like just having unstructured
(37:28):
in person communications and experiences with others, because they're like
spending too much time thinking about I don't know, they're
pores or something.
Sarah Jones (37:35):
Yes, I mean, and you're so right, first of all, guilty.
You can see my hands in there. I'm like oh
my god, Like, I am so self obsessedon on which
is why I want to get off there. And then
it's impossible to get off there because our worktimes, you know,
you want to reach people, you want them to find you.
It's a very tricky balance, yes, and yet I think
the main thing is social media at its best does
(37:58):
connect us. It does let us show a curated, you know,
best version of ourselves. But some of the videos that
I've put out when I like, wake up out of
bed and like, come on, can you believe they're doing
this to women? Right, Like those actually get the most engagement, right,
and my hair is like and I'm a mess. And
so I think, if anything, it is hard to not
be in self obsession when it's like how many followers,
(38:20):
how many lives? But if you can give yourself the
how I keep saying grace because I think that's what
it is. Of course, we are self obsessed when we're
on there. It's designed that way. There are people whose
job is to study the psychology that will make sure
you're on there, and guess what it has a lot
to do with like let me get the right angles,
Oh I got this filter. But also sometimes you can
(38:42):
just have some feelings and you don't need to like
spend all this time wondering like what it's like. Sometimes
it's not that deep. Sometimes you can just have a
feeling and move on with your day. You are saying
you are so right, but also you are Emily and
you have a put You have thought up a podcast
that helps people understand the connections between the personal and
the political. Not everybody, right, especially think about people who
got on it when they were thirteen, and it's a
(39:04):
part of their developmental process and it's part of how
they see the world and forget about thirteen ten, right,
or people who have never understood a world outside of
like I'm gonna be a TikTok influencer when I grow up.
I'm gonna like sell this like, oh, I'm going to
monetize this way. Like that's the other piece. We live
in a country. I love this country, and there's no
(39:25):
social safety net here in the way that there is
in other places, right England, other places Europe. And what
that means is you do start to fixate on how
you can win, and you know, like be on your
grind from the time you're little. And these platforms are
also designed right to get people to like be self obsessed,
monetize that self obsession right, and become influencers, right, Like
(39:47):
they all want to be influencers. They're all thinking all
the time about how to be interesting enough, one hundred
percent perfect enough, perfect enough, but also has to be
imperfectly perfect. Like you know, it's and this is my
thing about it. If we live in a soci where
everybody scared and kind of lonely and kind of self alienated,
that kind of soothing dopamine hit, you know, routine of
(40:11):
getting on your phone and just getting to numb out.
Of course, it's going to work, and it's designed to
work that way. So one of the things I teach
people is to turn their phones grayscale temporarily just to
like stop them from being totally engrossed in the scrolling
at I mean, one woman was saying, I think it
was it was a meme. Of course, then I saw
(40:31):
what I was on there. That's my favorite thing is
I'm like, well, let me give you some wisdom about
Instagram that I got while I was endlessly scrolling on Instagram.
But she literally was holding what looked like a clear
plastic thing like standing online somewhere and was just kind
of mindlessly doing, you know, scrolling, making the scrolling gesture
with her two fingers and her palm, and somebody said,
oh my god, what is that amazing device you had?
(40:52):
She says, it's just a piece of plastic to help
me not be on my phone, like the equivalent of
a fake cigarette or a fake fake We're at the
point now where I think we're all going to keep
figuring out how to stay more human and America, who
hurt you. The goal is we get to have a
good time while we tell the truth, because the alternative
(41:13):
is we don't tell the truth, and then we wonder.
It's like having a map that's upside down and then
you're like, why are we in the ocean? We were
totally driving to the forest. It's like, yeah, you gotta
have a like solid grip on reality and then you
can do all the things.
Emily Tisch Sussman (41:29):
You know.
Sarah Jones (41:29):
I just want to say that was masterfully block back
to your show, Masterflay, incredible. You brought it back to
social media, which I have forgotten. So I think we
have a good dance going here. But the truth is,
this is the work of my life, really, Emily, Like
I've done the other things. I've been on you on
some TV shows and done those other things. Nothing feels
as good as sitting with other people who often don't
(41:51):
look like me, aren't my age, aren't from where I'm from,
and them saying we do an exercise where we put
our hands on our heart in the show just bring
it back again, But we do this exercise and remind
ourselves that Usually the only time it's normal to do
that is when you're saying the pledge of allegiance. That's great,
except when you don't want to pledge allegiance to everything
about what's going on right now. Maybe you can connect
(42:13):
with your heart, which neuroscience and cardiovascu right like, there
are studies of how that simple movement calms your parasympathetic
nervous system, brings you right back into your body instantly,
and you're kind of pledging allegiance to yourself, the best
of yourself, not in a selfish way, but in a
way that brings you back online, brings you home to yourself,
and then you can be like, what kind of neighbor
(42:34):
do I want to be? What kind of country do
I want to live in? Who are the community members
that I want to connect up with and make some changes.
We want to get rid of this pollution. We want
to help this school that civic engagement that is going
to get us off our phones. And that doesn't mean
we don't use the phones as a tool, but it
means the phones can't use us. That was so good.
(42:55):
Oh thanks, I never said that before. I'm so glad
we're recording this.
Emily Tisch Sussman (42:58):
So I'm trying to debate right now whether I ask
you are like general closing question, which is, well, I'll
ask him.
Sarah Jones (43:08):
You can decide if you like it, you can.
Emily Tisch Sussman (43:10):
Say no, I'm done with that question, which is what
is something that in hindsight, like at the time you
thought it was real low and now you see it
as having really launched you to the success you are today.
Sarah Jones (43:20):
How many more hours do we have this question? I've
had so many of these moments like why did I
say no to this opportunity with this famous person who's
going to catapult me to blah blah or I mean,
at one point I was like, why did I get married?
I know that's terrible. He's a wonderful person, but I
realized how much he like looked the part, and I,
(43:41):
you know, I just wasn't grounded enough in myself yet
to know whether I could really say I do and
mean like not just I do until Thursday, you know.
But there have been so many of those moments at
leaste if I can lift out one one thing that
I said no to that was a Hollywood project. It
(44:03):
ended up going on to be successful, but because I
turned it down. I met Meryl Streep and she saw
me doing my like humanitarian you know, I wasn't on
the plane and on the red carpet. I was doing
this humanitarian show where I was playing like women from
all of around the world, you know, South Asian women
and you know, women from the Middle East and everything
like this. I was doing it at the UN but
(44:25):
it was not the sexy and there she was working
with a human rights organization because she's Meryl and that's
how I meet her. Are you kidding me? Like I
didn't have to go to drama school and climb the blood,
So I see how sticking to something that felt important
to me, even though at the time I was disappointed.
My agent was like, uh, like are you do you
(44:47):
have like a death wish in this industry? Like what's
wrong with you? And it led me right to one
of the most incredible relationships I've had as an artist.
So I think trusting our gut. I mean, you know,
not necessarily biome, but trust you know what you feel
when you do put your hand on your heart, and
I really encourage it. It's I do it all the
time now I don't even notice I'm doing it like
(45:09):
people are gonna think you're so weird. But whatever that
is for you doesn't have to be putting your hand
on your heart. It can just be a deep breath,
feeling your feet on the floor. Don't let the attention
economy rob you of your own attention to yourself. I
love that answer. Thank you so much, Sarah and all
of your friends.
Emily Tisch Sussman (45:27):
I also feel like I kept like I need to
really make sure the audience understands that all Sarah is
the only person in this race.
Sarah Jones (45:33):
She is the only guest on this show. Every person
you have heard in here is Sarah. Oh there's living
rent free with the prop human Airbnb over here. Feel
so thank you to Sarah, all of her family members,
all of her friends. Sweet thank you, this was so good.
We don't want to leave. I know so good. Thank you,
Thank you for having us.
Emily Tisch Sussman (45:49):
Emily, thank you so much for listening to this special
episode if she Pivots recorded live at the Aspen Ideas Festival.
To stay up to date with Sarah and her many characters,
you can follow her on Instagram at Yes, I'm Sarah Jones.
Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots. I
(46:13):
hope you enjoyed it, and if you did, leave us
a rating and tell your friends about us. To learn
more about our guests, follow us on Instagram at she
Pivots the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter where
you can get exclusive behind the scenes content on our
website at she pivots thepodcast dot com. This episode was
(46:34):
produced and edited by Emily at Avelosk, with sound editing
and mixing from Nina Pollock, Audio production and social media
by Hannah Cousins, research by Christine Dickinson, and logistics and
planning by Emma Stopic and Kendall Krupkin. She Pivots is
proud to be a part of the iHeart podcast network
Sarah Jones (46:55):
I ennosh te Pivots
Welcome back to she Pivots. I'm Sarah Jones.
Emily Tisch Sussman (00:13):
Welcome back to she Pivots, the podcast where we talk
with women who dare to pivot out of one career
and into something new and explore how their personal lives
impacts these decisions. I'm your host, Emily Tish Sussman. Today
(00:34):
we have another special candid conversation recorded live here at
the Aspen Ideas Festival. Maybe you can hear the Aspen
trees and streams behind me where I'm sitting down with
some of the world's foremost leaders, innovators, and creators. Today's
my conversation with Sarah Jones, Tony Award winning writer and
actress and host of the podcast America Who Hurt You?
Sarah Jones (00:58):
I'm so excited. She Pivots is one.
Emily Tisch Sussman (00:59):
Of the inaugural audio first media companies to partner with
the Festival. It was invigorating to be among brilliant leaders
and thinkers from around the globe to discuss and hear
the ideas that'll shape tomorrow and help us understand today.
Over the next few weeks, you'll hear live candid conversations
(01:20):
from inspiring women recorded here at the festival from geopolitical issues,
to economic issues, to cultural issues and beyond. Each interview
connects to the larger cultural moment we're in, and of course,
interweaves their personal lives. I hope you walk away feeling
as inspired and determined as I did to continue to
(01:40):
share our stories and experiences to change the cultural landscape
for a better tomorrow.
Sarah Jones (01:46):
Let's jump right in.
Emily Tisch Sussman (01:52):
Okay, knowing that I have thirty two minutes, I might
read our intro and then change this a little bit.
Sarah Jones (01:58):
Just for the record. I love that we might. This
is your canva. We're doing it, we do exactly, We're
doing it live. We're doing it live, Okay, the whole point.
Emily Tisch Sussman (02:06):
We are here at the Asman Ideas Festival with the
incredible Sarah Jones, a Tony Award winning actor and writer
whose work lives at the intersection of culture and politics,
something that feels vaguely familiar here on this podcast. She
is the host of the podcast America Who Hurt You,
where she explores the current state of America through mix
(02:28):
of personal narratives, political commentary, and humor, all of which
we are in need for these days.So welcome Sarah.
Sarah Jones (02:35):
Collective sigh of relief slash sharp intake of breath, like
I feel like we're It's very both and right now,
and I'm so happy to be with you.
Emily Tisch Sussman (02:44):
This is perfect. I'm so happy. We were just discussing
that you are now a member of my family.
Sarah Jones (02:50):
Essentially, I have to over the last threatening to move in.
I'm going to her mom's apartment. I'm over here on
the podcast. You may know that we just adopted a
puppy yesterday. Well, I have some puppy like tendons. I
just went that we're in the adopting mode where we're adding.
This is what I'm trying to say. I think America
that we are in a maximalist moment in a good way.
(03:13):
And I'm glad that we're having this conversation here at
Aspen Ideas, because yeah, America, who hurt you? Started out
it was like a joke. It was like, yes, America,
girl who herd too? Like what are we doing? And
then it was like painfully clear that we actually need
to put America on the therapy couch. And now we're
doing it live, which I got to do in front
of a wonderful audience, including you, And it makes a
(03:34):
huge difference to have this crackling energy that you and
I get to have and then share with the listeners.
That's the goal with season two of America Who Hurt You?
Is this combination of live experience and you know, people
being able to listen while they wash their dishes or
whatever it is.
Emily Tisch Sussman (03:50):
Well, there's something so incredibly important in this moment, in
this post covid post post covid of irl. Yes, in person,
we have to experience things together. We are pack animals, Yes,
we exactly. And the thing is, you know, I have
one character. So the show, the podcasts, you know, sometimes
(04:12):
you'll listen and there's a panel to certain podcasts and
that helps to inform the conversation. In my case, the
panel all live within me. My joke is that we
are sort of she pluribus unham, all of these people
in one body. They are based on my real family members.
And if you if you're hearing any sound effects is
because they are making their appearances. So if you're if
(04:35):
you're watching any of this.
Sarah Jones (04:36):
I'm obsessed with this well packed prop you have coming
out here. This is incredible. This is like the Swiss
Army Knife of props of your characters. So and here,
so let's so, so we just met me. I'm Sarah. Okay,
so here we go. I'm Lorraine. I already know you.
Emily Sweethood. We are related. We listen more than I
(04:58):
don't know about shared. It definitely related. But that's a joke,
because Sarah is. She jokes that she bases her characters
loosely on a real family. She comes from a mixed race,
multicultural black and white and Latino and Caribbean and on
the white side, Jews and Christians into married some of
(05:21):
you at the no, but we say it's a long
story filled with intrigue and into faith guilt. You know,
this is what happened anyway. The point is that all
of us, who may seem to be from very different
books of life, we are actually connected as a family.
And so yes, of course we should all adopt each other. Sorry,
(05:44):
that's incredible, that's the right. She really is based on
a real great aunt of mine, and it is true
that my family. You know, I'm a black woman of
a mixed race experience, and I grew up in Queens,
New York, and that gave me a certain sense of
connectedness to everyone in you know, everyone on the bus
that I rode to school. I felt connected to them
(06:05):
in some way.
Emily Tisch Sussman (06:07):
So I'm very interested on the timing and your thinking
going into America. Who hurt you? So you launched it
exactly a year ago? So a year ago July, So
July twenty twenty four. I'm not sure when you conceived
of the show or when you started filming.
Sarah Jones (06:22):
But yeah, the time time is interesting. If we can
all take ourselves back to July a year ago? Can
we please? Who's got the time machine we need? We're
doing all this AI, what about the time travel that
we need? People? I know respect us, please tech world
to give us the time the people what we're extually.
But the timing was I was what were people saying
(06:43):
back then? Nauseously optimistic, like I was hopeful that we
as a country. I don't think of this as a
of course, it's political because life is political. Right. If
you're a woman walking around, you kind of want to
have your rights, You want to be able to control
your own body. Maybe I don't know, it's just the thought,
and so for some people it's politics. Before a lot
of us it's what makes life, liberty and the pursuit
(07:05):
of happiness even possible. So I think of us as
you know Americans in the biggest sense of wanting to
have our freedom's respected and all of that, and so
I was hoping that's where we were headed November fifth,
and then so I had already conceived of the idea
of America who hurt you? And I'll let one other
person maybe chime in. Let me see who's gonna come. Okay, Hi, Emily,
(07:30):
my name is Bella, and it's amazing to be here
at ask of an ideas. I'll just quickly say I
know Sarah Jones because she came to my school like
when I was in college to do like a pluralism workshop.
And I'm a feminist and I was majoring double majoring
feminism and social media. Well actually its feminism and social
(07:54):
justice minoring in social media, sorry, but like with a
concentration on notable TikTok memes. And I think that's super
like important considering that, like you could argue that TikTok
and like social media kind of like decided the election
as much as anything else. So like I feel like
that's what we were all thinking about. Obvi, it's been Yeah,
(08:16):
it's chaotic right now, Okay, So that's Bella. She is chaotic.
But I bring these voices to the fore so we
can have a conversation about where we are. And at
the time, I thought we were all going to be
talking about what's next in terms of our democracy and
more human flourishing, I don't know, more access to healthcare
and you know, educational programs for kids. I didn't think
(08:39):
we were going to go in the opposite direction. So
that was kind of when I think when I put
myself in.
Emily Tisch Sussman (08:44):
Your heads like in my own headspace at that time,
and even the concept of this show that I'm.
Sarah Jones (08:49):
Thinking about, how do we move how do we move culture?
Like I spent almost twenty years working in federal policy,
Like I used to change laws. Bless you, thank you
for doing that. Well, I now said a podcast studio
and look at characters, so you know, like my life
has taken a chance. But you know, like that was
changing laws, and now I think about moving culture, and
it's so different. It's longer, it's harder, it's slower, it's personal.
Emily Tisch Sussman (09:13):
People have to feel connected, they have to take it
out of the political for people to feel connected to
it at all. And something that I thought, so I
looked at your lineup, I looked at your episodes. I
looked at your timing and I thought, Okay, she thought
she was moving culture forward.
Sarah Jones (09:27):
I get it. We hoped that we were moving in
a particular direction.
Emily Tisch Sussman (09:31):
Yes, yes, So one, I'm interested what you did after
the election, like how you changed it or didn't. But
also something that I thought was interesting during your first
episode is that your guest in your first episode made
this comment sort of along the lines of like, well,
I do culture and it's long and it's slow, and
regardless of the electoral outcome, I will be here and
(09:51):
we will be moving, which is a really nice thing
to say if you think you're actually gonna win.
Sarah Jones (09:55):
I know it sounds so quack. Now. No, I was like,
does she today I think the election will the same
either way. No, And I just have to say, like
our joke, it's not a joke, right of Like putting
America on the therapy couch is like when you watch
someone who's super self destructive and you want to be like, girl,
I love you have so many positive qualities. You really
really have to talk to someone like That's where I
(10:16):
feel America is at this point. And I will also
say optimism and humor go together. Being in a room
together is the shift that we've made. And we originally
launched America Who Hurt You with a live event in
New York, and after the election, I thought we need
to be together, Like, yes, the podcast is amazing. I'm
so grateful that I have people in rural you know,
(10:38):
communities who reach out and say, you know, I have
a bubby too. I'm the only one in my town.
But you know, it's nice to hear yours. That's all great,
but when we are in a room together, it adds.
It's very both and I feel like this moment we're
in is like, yes, do the digital thing, Like, let's
find out how social media is impacting all of our lives.
And that's one of the things we do in the show,
(10:59):
as you now know, is we literally give people hacks
for like, if you're struggling with being on your phone
at three am, doom scrolling and then like trying to
cycle back to some cute puppies and then you're back
to the doom, we have a hack for that. So
part of it is the practical, you know, as you
say on here, right, how do how do people's politics
and personal lives? What is that connection? And we're kind
(11:21):
of talking about how our collective experience as a country.
Not everybody lives through trauma. Not everybody lives through the
same you know, roller coaster ride as an American traumatizing,
but this moment as an American thank you for saying that,
because but let me just say, Emily, a lot of
people don't identify with that. A lot of people are like,
I'm not I don't feel trauma. And then I say
to them, well, you're from New York. Did you live
(11:42):
through nine to eleven? And they're like, oh, yeah, that
was bad, Or hey, did you live through a pandemic
in the last five years? Because I did it, and
they're like, oh, write that part, or like school shootings,
like worrying about what you're gonna wake up to, worrying
about your kids. It's traumatic, right, And so what I
realized is our politics are being driven by our trauma
to a certain extent, Like we're all so anxious and
(12:03):
depressed or like trying not to be that way, and
then we're going into the voting booth in fight flight,
you know, freezepawn and we don't even know we're not
breathing all day, and that hurts our politics. But Also,
it's not just that our trauma is driving our politics.
It's that our politics drives our trauma. When you wake
up to your neighbor's be I live in La now
and from New York, but literally my you know, neighbors
(12:24):
are being snatched off the street. That is traumatic. It's
really terrifying to watch new cycles of traumatized people, you know,
Like I'll give you an example. Hi, Emily, my name
is Neeva. We got to me yesterday. But as a
Latina first of all, sour Jones has cousins from Dominican Republic,
et cetera, and so she is very close to this issue.
Even though this country a lot of the time we'll
try to tell us that we're all separate and we're
(12:45):
all different and bad people are coming across the border
blah blah lah. And the truth is, if you look
at the real history of this country immigrants. We're all immigrants.
Like let's say your last name was Drump and then
you change it to Trump. That's German. I'm sorry to
tell you, but I studied the history. Your name is not,
you know, like red Bear. So if you're not Native American,
(13:05):
all of us have an immigrant story and we need
to be honest about why are we doing the things
that we're doing right now? Who is it really helping
and is it really protecting anybody's freedom or are we
letting the facts go out the window completely and then
losing our humanity which, by the way, there's this concept
of moral injury and the politics of right now, we
think that we can look away or step over that
(13:26):
unhoused person who's kicked out of their house because they
have no health care. We think that doesn't touch us.
But actually even the neuroscience and the you know, mental
health field is showing us that there is a secondary
moral injury, there is secondary trauma. We don't want that
as a country anyway. As you can tell, one day,
maybe Nedea will run for office if she stays safe
(13:46):
and doesn't get kicked out of the country to someplace
that you know, she's a citizen, but she's terrified to
leave her house and go get groceries right now.
Emily Tisch Sussman (13:53):
So, how do you think about moving culture right now?
Like where where are you trying to move culture? What
are your levers of change and have they changed in
the last year?
Sarah Jones (14:02):
Yeah, so you know what's wild One of the characters
who has become essential to me. Now is a man
named Hank. I don't even think he got to come
out yesterday, but he is someone who described himself as
a European American rights advocate. But I'll let him speak
for himself. Look, she wants to try to turn people
against me before I can even say my name. My
(14:22):
name is Hank. I'll say this, I'm an American. I
know other people call themselves Americans. I don't know what
their legal status, illegal, everything she talks about with the
immigration and all of that. Sure, my family came here,
you know, we are from half my family Norway and
half of them I think something English or something like that.
(14:44):
But as far as I'm concerned, I don't say I'm
just nothing. I used to say that and she'd make
fun of me. I'm just American and I don't agree
with the things Sarah Jones talks about and half of
her people or whatever she wants to call it. You know,
I'm a man she brings out here and she calls
it a one woman. That's the problem right there. But
as far as I'm concerned, I want this country to succeed,
(15:05):
and I wanted to prosper and I've voted for the
current president twice. I think he has a lot of
great qualities, but I am concerned about where we are
right now. I'm not going to lie to you and
when all the jobs that I work for va and
I'm disappointed in some of his choices. Elon. I've never
been fan of Elan. I don't care about those funny
(15:26):
looking cars. I don't care if you sell them on
the White House lawn. I'm not impressed. So I just
want this country to be safe and I want to
live up to what it should be for the people
who belong here. So as you can hear, Hank and
I do not see I own everything. But I'm taking
this around the country, the live version of America Who
hurt You? So we can all have a conversation. Maybe
(15:48):
it turns into debate, but the idea is to maintain
our sense of humor. And I want people like Hank
to understand that all he wants is the same thing
Nedeva wants. Her family, you know, came here, work hard,
and they deserve to be able to flourish. His family
works hard, deserves to be able to flourish. So where
are we getting to this conflict that is ripping the
(16:10):
country apart, and we're now at a point where I'm scared.
I'm scared not just for my neighbors, but you know
part of what happened with this America. Who hurt you
project you can't well, maybe you can see me if
you're watching this, but I have, you know, dark brown skin.
I'm black from a distance. I have some people would
call it a ju fro, but it's more fro, and
(16:30):
I have big, curly hair. I used to straighten it
because it made me feel safer to not seem like
I'm you know, pushing things too far in a direction
that isn't American enough, right. So I realized that part
of me that was always scared I used to stop.
If you ever look for it, you can find my
ted Tolks and some of the other things that I've
done online in the past. And I would lead with
(16:53):
this accent. Now positive is that I play different characters
and it's fun for me. But I realized, and you
were talking about the pivot, what is that pivot? I
realized for years I was leading with this because I
got better treatment and I felt safer than being a
regular black American. And when I bring that up and
talk about that. I realized everybody in the country right
(17:15):
now is going through different kinds of pivots and reckonings
because I think we are at a new place. We
really do have to ask ourselves who do we want
to be as a country? Does the constitution mean anything
to us? And if it does, what are we doing
right now?
Emily Tisch Sussman (17:30):
So a lot of what people are talking about is
you reference this with the social media but silos that
the way that people are getting information right now is
self congratulatory. There's a confirmation bias, confirmation bias that like
you just seek out what confirms your own bias already,
and that's actually gone now beyond opinion into news as well, and.
Sarah Jones (17:51):
It seeks you out. It's not just that you seek
out what you already believe. The algorithm is like, hey babe,
it's you and me, you know, which is really dangerous.
Yeah yeah, yeah, But so how are you thinking about reaching?
Are you going? Are you going to hank? Are you
going to not get?
Emily Tisch Sussman (18:08):
Like?
Sarah Jones (18:08):
Where are you going? We're going? Hey? Wow? So wow?
Indeed yeah, because she might monstraighten this whatever it is
kind of hairdoo that she's got going on here, because uh,
it's going to make her stick out, all right, and uh, listen,
I'm not here to criticize anybody, but I can tell
you that when people don't agree on the facts, there's
(18:30):
nowhere to go if everybody can see. Sarah Jones talks
about it in terms of because I think she's a
big old lefty, and uh, She'll say, well, if it rained,
that's not left or right. You just have to go
out there and take a measure. Is there precipitation on
the ground or not. I come from a farming background.
I know she's trying. She's trying to peel to me.
(18:51):
My point is that I agree with that. I don't
agree with most of what else she says, but if
you can show me the truth, I'm smart. I can
figure that out.
Emily Tisch Sussman (19:00):
Now.
Sarah Jones (19:00):
She feels like her truth is the only real truth,
and I can tell you in my truth the things
I watch, those things make sense to me. So when
I hear Hank, I get scared because I actually heard this,
and I don't know if it can be corroborated, but
I remember hearing that. With Fox, for example, they specifically
(19:21):
said we're an entertainment brand. Yes there's some news, but
it's entertainment. But what people think is news is all
this opinion that they're getting, and that's that are I
mean when I saw photos, When I see the leader
of the country showing photos that are photoshopped, that's terrifying
to me. And we're now at a place where AI,
(19:44):
you know, kind of exacerbates the problem of what even
is the truth. So I just want to get in
a room with Hank, who reminds me a little bit.
I have an uncle, I had a you know, Republican uncle.
I had a Republican father in law. White guys, older
white guys. I love these people and they love me.
We didn't agree on everything, but it hadn't gotten this extreme.
And so I'm wondering, how do we like moving culture
(20:05):
like you were talking about. I think if people can
see facts on the ground, it moves them. That idea
of rain, if you can see that it rained and
somebody's telling you, nope, that was a hologram, and you'll
start to say, wait a minute, like are you pouring
vy on on me and telling me it's not raining,
Like what are we doing here? And I think as
a country, we also have shared values. Hank doesn't like
(20:28):
watching Jeff Bezos spend fifty million dollars on a wedding
when he can't get packages delivered to his area because
the jobs, you know, aren't secure enough and people won't
come to him with packages, right, So he's seeing the
inequality and the inequities too, but he just thinks they're
Joe Biden's fault. So that's the conversation we want to
have about what are the things we all agree on,
(20:50):
what do we believe to be true? And most Americans
share basic values that you should get, you know, fair
wages for your work, that you should have your privacy.
See that we all believe those things. But then these
sneaky you know, legislation comes through if you call something
that's going to invade your privacy the we like you
a lot bill, and then you hide the part where
(21:12):
they can you know, spread your information and where they want.
That's a problem and we need more checks and balances
to get us on the same page to move culture.
Emily Tisch Sussman (21:26):
Stay tuned for more of Sarah after the break.
Sarah Jones (21:45):
That's a problem and we need more checks and balances
to get us on the same page to move culture.
So how are you going to bring those facts? So
I try to do it through humor because it's not
a rally. I don't want people coming thinking that they're,
you know, going to sit through a news broadcast. We
try to get up there and have a good time,
you know what. I'm gonna bring out one of my buddies.
(22:06):
Let's see if he's got something to say. All right,
what's good, y'all. My name is Roy she Emily. Very
nice to meet you. I love you podcast. I love
the whole vibe. I'm a black male, you know, I'm
interested in everything y'all talking about. And I got to
tell you my experience is different even from Sarah Jones,
(22:26):
you know what I mean, she got her mom got
white privileged. She walked around having a different experience where
she's a child. Ain't no ambiguities about me, you know.
I mean, I know what it is to try to
help people understand something without preaching that. You can't be
preaching that people right now. Don't nobody want to hear that.
Ain't nobody got time for that. So for me, it's like,
don't tell people, Oh, you know, right now, we all
(22:49):
got something called digital dementia, which is true. I'm sorry
to tell y'all that but it means that we're on
our phone so much that we losing our gray matter,
we losing our ability to connect with people. We're hearing
about the loneliness crisis and all this other type of stuff.
Nobody wants to really have to hear all that and
hear about the policies behind all that. But if you
just say to somebody, yo, my dude, I mean, how's
(23:11):
your date in life? And he's like, y'all, I'm like,
you know it's given in cell vibes right now, son,
I can't find nobody all these I'm not gonna use
no language on your should I shouldn't used, but I'm
saying when dudes is lonely, then you could reach them
and be like, son, you know what this is? You?
You know what I mean? You addicted to your phone
and you're gonna get an AI girlfriend. It's not gonna
(23:33):
and yeah, it's that's that's that's not gonna play out
the way you think. That's not the flex you think
it is. So I bring Rashid in to kind of
bring a an emotional human I think about myself. You know,
if you say to me, oh my goodness, they're passing
this thing that's gonna maybe, you know, take away medicaid
from a whole bunch of people. That's different than if
Lorraine says, you know people my age and I won't
(23:59):
tell you my real age, but Emily, you know this.
I like to think of myself as living proof that
over eighty five is the new seventy. I didn't know that.
I think the statistic is something like maybe seventy percent
of older people rely on the nursing homes and the
assisted living and all of these things. They're going to
(24:20):
lose all their they're livelyhood, They're going to lose their
ability to stay healthy. That hits me in my heart.
I'm this shame age. They don't deserve that. They work
to out just like me. So that's the idea is
that if you can see yourself or your relative or
just somebody you can identify with and then hear how
their life is going to be impacted by something that
(24:41):
just maybe isn't a policy that we really want to
vote for, that helps people think in the political and
the personal at the same time. So that's the hope
is that that moves culture.
Emily Tisch Sussman (24:52):
Are you thinking about there being like, is there an interactivity?
Sarah Jones (24:56):
I mean clearly you are not scripted like you have
I am not scripted. You clearly are pulling this all
out as this is unbelievable. I'm truly witnessing magic in
this room right now. Oh thanks Ellily. Well, I would
say with the joke that we make in the show
when people came and saw us performed, we just did
Joe's pub We've been performing all over and we're coming
to a city and a rural area near you, So
(25:18):
come sign up on America Who Hurt You dot com.
That's the other thing. Social media is hard because if
you're saying things that the algorithm doesn't like for some reason,
then you get suppressed, you get shadow band. You can't
say a certain kind of women's healthcare without it being
considered you know, questionable. But so but we're getting people
to sign up so that we can have more irl
(25:40):
connection and have more direct connection that isn't mitigated by
you know, social media platforms that may be trying to
influence our opinion or keep us in that silo that
you were talking about. But the idea is to make
sure all of our voices get heard. I gotta be
(26:00):
completely honest that I lost my place. What do you
think is the role of social media in this connection building?
That's helpful, But what was your question before? It was
so good and I know, I know, I'm I'm so
inch in your answer my question. We can go over okay,
because I'm like, I'm watching hand I'm like, okay, any.
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Characters Okay, okay, character pandemonium.
Emily Tisch Sussman (26:38):
After the break more from Sarah character pandemonium.
Sarah Jones (26:55):
So but social media, right, yeah, there's no question that
it has Wait. By the way, we keep all of
this in this is all say, yeah, the chaos is real, y'all.
It's a metaphor for the moment we're in. It's not
to be perfect, but it's real. But it's human human,
It's real. Is there anything better than human messiness? And
I think that also is part of the goal of
(27:17):
America Who Hurt You, is to like stop pretending that
we all have to be these perfect I think about
my friends who are moms. I'm not, I mean, unless
you count the inner children, but I clearly have I'm
not a mom myself, but I look around at my friends.
They're like, they have to be perfect in their businesses.
They're entrepreneurs, they're raising kids, they're you know, They're like
(27:40):
contributing to their communities, it's impossible. And then they're like,
my god, biome and I'm like just the the guy
I cannot. I cannot, like, can we all please give
our gut and the oils? I cannot likes, I mean forget,
I can't. I walked in here, like, where's the turmeric?
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Like everybody calmed down, We're not gonna die if we
don't get turmeric for ten minute. And I think though,
one of the things I love so much about getting
to talk to different people, and we have had like
great guests on and that will still be a part
of it. Hearing Jane Fonda talk about climate I like,
you know, as Bella said, she was like, we.
Sarah Jones (28:14):
Stand like forever, like I'm dead, And it's okay, Bella,
You're embarrassing us in front of Jane Fonda. But you know,
having these wonderful thought leaders and also the audience are
the thought leaders. So we've been doing Q and A.
We get people to you know, kind of open up
and share a little bit about their experiences. We do
breath work in the show, so like we feel like
(28:34):
at this point you got to throw everything at it.
And social media is a huge part of that, yes,
and we know that it's impacting people's ability to connect.
You know, there are kids who, because they were raised
on screens, can't make eye contact and can't hold, you know,
emotional connection in the same way. We don't want that.
We don't and we don't want that for them, and
we don't want it for ourselves. And so there are
(28:55):
ways for social media to be a positive, but we
got to be on that. If it's called the attention
economy and their business model is to get all of
your attention twenty four hours a day, when are you
gonna have any time for yourself? So my suggestion with
America who hurt you is we get into a room
we laugh. Some people are like, it's a comedy show.
(29:17):
I'm like, great, stay with that. I'm gonna give you
the avocado in the brownies. But the good news is
it is fun and it is funny, and we do laugh,
and we give ourselves permission to be messy and imperfect.
And I actually ask people to check in with themselves
when you know, we'll be talking about like did you
hear about this latest thing that happened? Also, the news
(29:38):
cycle is so that's our joke is that I rewrite
the script twice a day, like brushing my teeth, because
you can't keep up with what's happening, so you can't
walk a script right. But what that allows us to
do is be more spontaneous, more in the moment, me
saying to you, I can't remember. I'm in such a spin,
I can't find you know where I started. And that's
(29:58):
so different from the old me. Even almost feel like
this moment has given all of us permission to just
be like girl, like, I don't even know what's going
on right now. I need a wellness break, I need
a bio break, I need a vacation. Like I'm hearing
people talk about giving themselves more leeway, and I'll just
(30:18):
say this, I think some people in leadership did not
grow up with that kind of position, that kind of permission,
rather to be themselves to find healing. Like that's one
of the things with the show is we're gonna laugh
because it's healing. I mean, I'm not gonna tell you that.
I'm not gonna like, you know, take your temperature before
you come in and be like this is an intake form,
(30:38):
it's not a hospital healing. But so much healing comes
through creativity, through art. Some of the all your guests.
When I listen, I'm like, oh my god, these are
people who are bringing that combination of their creative spirit
and how they want to be in the world, how
they want to be part of community. You bring those together,
it's magic. And I don't think we can end up
(31:00):
in you know, as Bella would say, this moment is
like low key, high key, like the amuse boush before authoritarianism.
But we're not. We're not. You know, we still have time,
but let's what are we doing with our time? Like
what are we doing? So I think it's like I
learned in some of my research that the current president,
(31:22):
when he was a little boy, his father screamed at him,
you're a loser. You're a loser. You need to be
a killer. Imagine being seven eight years old and the
person who's supposed to be your caretaker his mother was
ill when he was two, so he lost that connection.
And so this is a person who is a traumatized
child inside. And it's not surprising to me that you know,
they sent him off to military boarding school by the
(31:44):
time he was twelve or thirteen, and so all of
that pain just got calcified in there talk about trauma,
and that trauma is now driving our trauma in my opinion,
So I share stuff like that with the audience just
to humanize and remind us that if we don't intervene
and give all of ourselves more permission to be fully
human and to connect and to heal, we end up
(32:06):
in really scary places.
Emily Tisch Sussman (32:08):
Well, it's been interesting as you've been talking through all
of this and like this moment that we have permission
to be messy and to show so much more and
to be so much more human. I was thinking about
this evolution in myself even and how this has been
I mean I spent a decade as a Fox News
commentator on other networks as well. When we started to
talk about Fox News, I was like, well, yes, I
(32:28):
actually was behind the valley. I was in the middle
of the belly, and everything was about presenting correctly, looking correctly.
I mean I had to be there, you know, at
least an hour and a half for hair and makeup perfect.
Sarah Jones (32:40):
You all are the most perfect looking anchors anywhere. But like,
like you're saying, here you are now you have permission
to be I'd rather the journalist has a hair out
of place, but tells me the straight up, exact facts.
I don't want so called left facts. I don't want
right facts. I just want the facts. And I don't
care if you look perfect. Yeah, but it's a hard
(33:02):
you know, you say the left of the right facts,
it's a hard thing.
Emily Tisch Sussman (33:06):
Everything is about how you frame the question totally. And
so I would do the same segment. You know, if
something was topical in the news, I would do it
on Fox. I would do it on MSNBC, CNN, ABC,
Like I would go through the networks if something was
in news cycle and I'd be talking about it. And
the way they framed the questions was everything. Wow, I
was talking about will the bill pass right?
Sarah Jones (33:26):
What is in the bill? What'll it do for the economy?
Will someone win the election?
Emily Tisch Sussman (33:30):
Right? Like these I mean, these things are more in
my opinion, but you know, or I'd be like commenting
on you know, the global position, like the US position
on inter national affairs. You know, these things were not
necessarily debatable. They would be considered facts. But the questions
I got were framed so differently. The framing was everything.
Sarah Jones (33:46):
It's everything. It's so true. And when you now I'm like,
can I interview you? Though? But it's true because I
think what happens is we get lost. Let's say I
don't know you right, and I'm like, she framed these
questions for Fox like this. It's like, no, Actually, if
you sat in a room with Emily and talk to her,
you would understand so much more about the context and
the framing and everything that's happening. Imagine if all of
(34:09):
us collectively and I don't know that there's a theater
big enough for me to get all three hundred and
however many million Americans we have. But my goal eventually
is film this thing, get it into you know, people's
homes and their living rooms. I don't know if it's
Netflix or Hulu or whatever, but the way we look
at comedy, I think there's so much more potential for
it to like serve us and for us to be
(34:31):
able to laugh and enjoy conversations with each other in
a real room, but then also be able to broadcast
out a conversation that says, hey, you're a human being
and you might have an experience like your dad calling
you loser, or you know, your mom got sick and
so you didn't bond with her or whatever, and for
all you know, that's still driving some of what makes
(34:51):
you so upset today or why you feel unsafe around
people who look different than you. It really is putting
America on the therapy couch in a certain way, but
without the judge, and that we have such harsh, horrible
language that, if you think about it, a lot of
us learned in school, or a lot of us learned
from a culture that bullied folks, you know, for years
and years it was normal. I was talking to somebody
(35:13):
about women and our body image issues and how many
of us grew up with like if you I mean.
I was like, oh my god, I can pinch like
a centimeter of you, you know, and you read that
and whym listen say less as they say. And the
thing about that is all of that. I talked about
it in my own life, like I was on Broadway
for years, and like not years. I was on Broadway
(35:34):
for it felt like years. It was less than a year.
But I did a one person show every night. I
had to be perfect, absolutely perfect, and I couldn't eat
more than this. And the next thing I knew, I
was like, oh, I am so disconnected from myself because
I'm trying to maintain this perfect standard and it was
robbing me of my own joy. I don't think it
(35:55):
helped my marriage. I'm divorced now. But my point is
that everybody in America has these kinds of stories. We're
overworking or we're trying to overperform or look perfect or
whatever it is. And I think that cuts us off
from ourselves, which cuts us off from other people. And
the opposite happens if you connect, if you say, hey,
I feel a little messy. Oh I did some I
(36:15):
have a term for it that I really liked that
I heard, disembodied eating. It means I was having a
feeling and I was like, I don't like this feeling.
I'm gonna be putting that in my mouth right now.
And instead of being right and instead of being like,
oh my god, I'm such a mess I need to
go to the gym for like five hours now, instead
it's like, oh, I guess you maybe overrate a little something.
When's the first time you remember doing that? When I
was five, you know, my parents will be like, here's
(36:35):
some ice cream, you know, don't cry, just relax, And
so none of it's bad, None of it's wrong. It
takes the like moral judgment out of who we are
and how we're living, and it helps us. It's not
that we don't want to take responsibility. I think we
just all want to understand. Oh, people are hurting for
lots of different reasons, and that makes sense. It doesn't
make them bad, it doesn't make them wrong, or they're
(36:58):
lazy and need a better morning routine. It means we're
all in kind of a messy time, and the more
we can accept that and lean into it, the better
off we're going to be.
Emily Tisch Sussman (37:07):
Well. I think this also goes to the role of
social media and all those I honestly, I think people
think about themselves too much right now, and I think
they get it on social media. I think they get
like therapy terms and they compare themselves to others. I
just think people think about themselves way too much, and
then they're not spending time irl like just having unstructured
(37:28):
in person communications and experiences with others, because they're like
spending too much time thinking about I don't know, they're
pores or something.
Sarah Jones (37:35):
Yes, I mean, and you're so right, first of all, guilty.
You can see my hands in there. I'm like oh
my god, Like, I am so self obsessedon on which
is why I want to get off there. And then
it's impossible to get off there because our worktimes, you know,
you want to reach people, you want them to find you.
It's a very tricky balance, yes, and yet I think
the main thing is social media at its best does
(37:58):
connect us. It does let us show a curated, you know,
best version of ourselves. But some of the videos that
I've put out when I like, wake up out of
bed and like, come on, can you believe they're doing
this to women? Right, Like those actually get the most engagement, right,
and my hair is like and I'm a mess. And
so I think, if anything, it is hard to not
be in self obsession when it's like how many followers,
(38:20):
how many lives? But if you can give yourself the
how I keep saying grace because I think that's what
it is. Of course, we are self obsessed when we're
on there. It's designed that way. There are people whose
job is to study the psychology that will make sure
you're on there, and guess what it has a lot
to do with like let me get the right angles,
Oh I got this filter. But also sometimes you can
(38:42):
just have some feelings and you don't need to like
spend all this time wondering like what it's like. Sometimes
it's not that deep. Sometimes you can just have a
feeling and move on with your day. You are saying
you are so right, but also you are Emily and
you have a put You have thought up a podcast
that helps people understand the connections between the personal and
the political. Not everybody, right, especially think about people who
got on it when they were thirteen, and it's a
(39:04):
part of their developmental process and it's part of how
they see the world and forget about thirteen ten, right,
or people who have never understood a world outside of
like I'm gonna be a TikTok influencer when I grow up.
I'm gonna like sell this like, oh, I'm going to
monetize this way. Like that's the other piece. We live
in a country. I love this country, and there's no
(39:25):
social safety net here in the way that there is
in other places, right England, other places Europe. And what
that means is you do start to fixate on how
you can win, and you know, like be on your
grind from the time you're little. And these platforms are
also designed right to get people to like be self obsessed,
monetize that self obsession right, and become influencers, right, Like
(39:47):
they all want to be influencers. They're all thinking all
the time about how to be interesting enough, one hundred
percent perfect enough, perfect enough, but also has to be
imperfectly perfect. Like you know, it's and this is my
thing about it. If we live in a soci where
everybody scared and kind of lonely and kind of self alienated,
that kind of soothing dopamine hit, you know, routine of
(40:11):
getting on your phone and just getting to numb out.
Of course, it's going to work, and it's designed to
work that way. So one of the things I teach
people is to turn their phones grayscale temporarily just to
like stop them from being totally engrossed in the scrolling
at I mean, one woman was saying, I think it
was it was a meme. Of course, then I saw
(40:31):
what I was on there. That's my favorite thing is
I'm like, well, let me give you some wisdom about
Instagram that I got while I was endlessly scrolling on Instagram.
But she literally was holding what looked like a clear
plastic thing like standing online somewhere and was just kind
of mindlessly doing, you know, scrolling, making the scrolling gesture
with her two fingers and her palm, and somebody said,
oh my god, what is that amazing device you had?
(40:52):
She says, it's just a piece of plastic to help
me not be on my phone, like the equivalent of
a fake cigarette or a fake fake We're at the
point now where I think we're all going to keep
figuring out how to stay more human and America, who
hurt you. The goal is we get to have a
good time while we tell the truth, because the alternative
(41:13):
is we don't tell the truth, and then we wonder.
It's like having a map that's upside down and then
you're like, why are we in the ocean? We were
totally driving to the forest. It's like, yeah, you gotta
have a like solid grip on reality and then you
can do all the things.
Emily Tisch Sussman (41:29):
You know.
Sarah Jones (41:29):
I just want to say that was masterfully block back
to your show, Masterflay, incredible. You brought it back to
social media, which I have forgotten. So I think we
have a good dance going here. But the truth is,
this is the work of my life, really, Emily, Like
I've done the other things. I've been on you on
some TV shows and done those other things. Nothing feels
as good as sitting with other people who often don't
(41:51):
look like me, aren't my age, aren't from where I'm from,
and them saying we do an exercise where we put
our hands on our heart in the show just bring
it back again, But we do this exercise and remind
ourselves that Usually the only time it's normal to do
that is when you're saying the pledge of allegiance. That's great,
except when you don't want to pledge allegiance to everything
about what's going on right now. Maybe you can connect
(42:13):
with your heart, which neuroscience and cardiovascu right like, there
are studies of how that simple movement calms your parasympathetic
nervous system, brings you right back into your body instantly,
and you're kind of pledging allegiance to yourself, the best
of yourself, not in a selfish way, but in a
way that brings you back online, brings you home to yourself,
and then you can be like, what kind of neighbor
(42:34):
do I want to be? What kind of country do
I want to live in? Who are the community members
that I want to connect up with and make some changes.
We want to get rid of this pollution. We want
to help this school that civic engagement that is going
to get us off our phones. And that doesn't mean
we don't use the phones as a tool, but it
means the phones can't use us. That was so good.
(42:55):
Oh thanks, I never said that before. I'm so glad
we're recording this.
Emily Tisch Sussman (42:58):
So I'm trying to debate right now whether I ask
you are like general closing question, which is, well, I'll
ask him.
Sarah Jones (43:08):
You can decide if you like it, you can.
Emily Tisch Sussman (43:10):
Say no, I'm done with that question, which is what
is something that in hindsight, like at the time you
thought it was real low and now you see it
as having really launched you to the success you are today.
Sarah Jones (43:20):
How many more hours do we have this question? I've
had so many of these moments like why did I
say no to this opportunity with this famous person who's
going to catapult me to blah blah or I mean,
at one point I was like, why did I get married?
I know that's terrible. He's a wonderful person, but I
realized how much he like looked the part, and I,
(43:41):
you know, I just wasn't grounded enough in myself yet
to know whether I could really say I do and
mean like not just I do until Thursday, you know.
But there have been so many of those moments at
leaste if I can lift out one one thing that
I said no to that was a Hollywood project. It
(44:03):
ended up going on to be successful, but because I
turned it down. I met Meryl Streep and she saw
me doing my like humanitarian you know, I wasn't on
the plane and on the red carpet. I was doing
this humanitarian show where I was playing like women from
all of around the world, you know, South Asian women
and you know, women from the Middle East and everything
like this. I was doing it at the UN but
(44:25):
it was not the sexy and there she was working
with a human rights organization because she's Meryl and that's
how I meet her. Are you kidding me? Like I
didn't have to go to drama school and climb the blood,
So I see how sticking to something that felt important
to me, even though at the time I was disappointed.
My agent was like, uh, like are you do you
(44:47):
have like a death wish in this industry? Like what's
wrong with you? And it led me right to one
of the most incredible relationships I've had as an artist.
So I think trusting our gut. I mean, you know,
not necessarily biome, but trust you know what you feel
when you do put your hand on your heart, and
I really encourage it. It's I do it all the
time now I don't even notice I'm doing it like
(45:09):
people are gonna think you're so weird. But whatever that
is for you doesn't have to be putting your hand
on your heart. It can just be a deep breath,
feeling your feet on the floor. Don't let the attention
economy rob you of your own attention to yourself. I
love that answer. Thank you so much, Sarah and all
of your friends.
Emily Tisch Sussman (45:27):
I also feel like I kept like I need to
really make sure the audience understands that all Sarah is
the only person in this race.
Sarah Jones (45:33):
She is the only guest on this show. Every person
you have heard in here is Sarah. Oh there's living
rent free with the prop human Airbnb over here. Feel
so thank you to Sarah, all of her family members,
all of her friends. Sweet thank you, this was so good.
We don't want to leave. I know so good. Thank you,
Thank you for having us.
Emily Tisch Sussman (45:49):
Emily, thank you so much for listening to this special
episode if she Pivots recorded live at the Aspen Ideas Festival.
To stay up to date with Sarah and her many characters,
you can follow her on Instagram at Yes, I'm Sarah Jones.
Thanks for listening to this episode of she Pivots. I
(46:13):
hope you enjoyed it, and if you did, leave us
a rating and tell your friends about us. To learn
more about our guests, follow us on Instagram at she
Pivots the Podcast, or sign up for our newsletter where
you can get exclusive behind the scenes content on our
website at she pivots thepodcast dot com. This episode was
(46:34):
produced and edited by Emily at Avelosk, with sound editing
and mixing from Nina Pollock, Audio production and social media
by Hannah Cousins, research by Christine Dickinson, and logistics and
planning by Emma Stopic and Kendall Krupkin. She Pivots is
proud to be a part of the iHeart podcast network
Sarah Jones (46:55):
I ennosh te Pivots
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