April 4, 2023 • 24 mins
In the final episode of “She Wants More” we look at the darker side of an affair. While many of the women we talked with found empowerment and fulfillment through infidelity, today’s guest, “Sarah” has a different kind of story. "Sarah" fell in love with her kid's pediatrician when she was married to another man. She had an affair, left her husband and got married. But then, her story took an unexpected twist, leaving her devastated and vindictive. Her story serves as a reminder of the real stakes of choosing infidelity and the lies we often tell ourselves in the moment in order to justify our actions. Susan Shapiro Barash shares her final thoughts.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
So I met him at his office one evening. The
sex was great, and then it just was a whirlwind.
It was a crazy whirlwind, like maybe a few weeks
into it or a month into it, I said, hey,
we've got to stop this. You've got a family. I've
got a family. And so he went home that night
without telling me and told his wife. It was so
scary because it blew up all over this small town.
(00:29):
That's Sarah. She was a young, married mom at her
twenties when she first met Keith. Keith was her daughter's pediatrician.
He was also married with a young child. But the
feeling between the two of them was electric, and Sarah
couldn't help herself. There was a force, there was an
energy around our being togethered that was unexpected. Then Keith
(00:54):
told his wife, and his wife, as you might expect,
told everyone. Suddenly, Sarah and Keith's affair blew up both
of their lives, but it didn't matter. Sarah was in
love and it seemed worth it, and for a while
it actually ended up working out for her. Sarah and
(01:14):
Keith got married. I thought our life was the best
life in the world. We just lived life fully. We
traveled we took our children places, we were involved in
the community, we had good careers, We loved each other.
But then her life blew up again. This is she
wants more. I'm your host, Joe Piazza. Over the past
(01:38):
seven episodes, we've heard from numerous women who have cheated
on we are currently cheating on their partners. Every story
is different, but we do keep hearing some common themes.
We hear that these affairs tend to empower women, boost
their self esteem, enrich their sex lives, and sometimes they
even find the love that they've been missing in their marriage.
(02:00):
And I've got to tell you, sometimes these interviews have
made infidelity seem dreaming, like they're the fountain of youth
or the secret sauce to a more complete and lovely existence. Today,
in our final episode, we're hearing a different kind of story.
This is a story that began as a love affair,
(02:22):
but then there were consequences. It's also a story about karma,
and karma, my friends, is a real bitch, and we'll
hear all about it after the break we are back.
(02:45):
Sarah felt like a new woman when she started the
affair with Keith. But let's back up a little bit,
because I want to hear the whole story. I want
us to start at the very beginning of Sarah's first marriage.
Before she met Keith, I was married, and I wouldn't
say that it was an unhappy marriage at all. I
would say it was a marriage like other marriages. You know,
(03:07):
the head its great weeks, and it head it's not
so great weeks. But it was just a nice, steady,
little marriage. And I was young. I was twenty five,
I had a child, a baby. My daughter was not
yet a year old when I met Keith, and he
was her doctor, and he had some running magazines in
the lobby and I was reading them, and so we
(03:28):
started talking about the fact that we both run. They
were both into running, and Keith was pretty saxy. That
didn't hurt. The two of them went for a run
one day and the feeling between them was something Karen
had never felt before, and afterwards ended up talking for
(03:49):
probably two hours. I found it so easy to be
with him, and there was just a sparkle. We didn't
want to leave after the run, so and that started it.
So they began an affair a few months ago by
but then Sarah's guilt took over and she told Keith
that this just couldn't happen. It had to end. I said, hey,
(04:10):
we've got to stop this. We've got families. You've got
a family, I've got a family. We can't do this.
So he went home and he said, if we go
back to our families, all I'm going to lose you.
I have to say that what Keith did next is
a pretty big, a whole move, And so he went
home that night without telling me and told his wife.
It was so scary because it blew up all over
(04:33):
this small town and became town knowledge. It was on
the front burner of the town until the next affair
came along and blew us away, which was a relief
for me. Become sort of outcast in the town's eyes,
and then your children's friends parents become very put off
by you. And that's always hard because when it affects
your children, you feel it. It's more painful. Everyone was
(04:54):
gossiping about Sarah and Keith. Everyone had an opinion, and
in the moment that felt like complete shit. But in hindsight,
Sarah realized something that I actually found fascinating. You know
what's interesting is I've discovered this numerous times, not just
(05:18):
with this affair, but the people who come out the
loudest and the strongest against an affair. The people who
are the most indignant are generally the people who are divorced.
A year later, it resonates, it strikes accord with him somewhere.
For instance, the woman who played the organ in our
(05:39):
church in our small town, she hated me, and she
was vicious in her hatred. You know, some people just
sort of mildly dislike you or kind of just move
away from you, but she made sure that I knew
how much she hated me. Within a year she was divorced.
The same thing happened with my brother. My brother wouldn't
speak to me because he loved ex husband. He was
(06:01):
having an affair at the same time too, but he
was indignant about mine. That's the kind of the weird
thing about affairs is like, when you're in one, you
feel like it's right and that you have the right
to do it because you are in love and this
love is bigger than whatever else is out there. But
then you become indignant about, you know, your best friend's
(06:24):
husband leaving her so interesting right. Eventually, Keith and Sarah
ended up leaving their marriages for each other, and they
were so in love that all of the gossip didn't matter.
They traveled, they had a great house, they blended their families,
and they even had kids together. It lasted like this
for more than a decade. Sarah really thought that what
(06:45):
she and Keith had was going to last forever, that
it was a forever love, until one day something changed.
It really literally never entered my mind that he would
cheat on me. I just thought our love was so big,
it was so beautiful. I just didn't think anything would happen.
Talk me through When that happened, I felt a shift
(07:08):
between us and I wasn't sure what was going on,
and I think that at some point I said, are
you having an affair? And he said no. And then
one day I went into his office. Our offices were
right next door to each other. I popped in on
him and he was on the phone and I could
hear the voice on the other line was a woman,
and so when he hung up, I said, so, who
are you talking to? And then he named his best friend,
(07:33):
a guy. That's when I knew that he was having
an affair. And then he said, I need to talk
to you and then we met at home. He said
we need to go for a drive. The way he
told me it was awful because I mean, I guess
there's not a good way to tell someone, right, but
you would think there would be some dignity around it
(07:53):
where you could have some time and space. Basically, I
found out and had to take my kids to soccer.
So I drove about a block away from our house
and kind of went down this lane into a little
field and said I'm in love with someone else. And
I was furious and asking who it was, and then
he wouldn't tell me. And when I got out of
(08:14):
the car, I kicked the door on the passenger side
so hard that it was horribly bashed in and beaten up.
And I just thought, well, every time she gets into
the car, she's going to have to think about me.
Sarah was shocked. She was shocked, and she was pissed.
And now at this point in the story, you might
(08:35):
be thinking, what I did, Sarah, You and Keith got
together because of an affair, because you both cheated on
other people. Why are you so surprised that Keith did
this to you? Well, she was surprised. We never see
things coming Sarah was completely blindsided. I never had doubts.
(09:00):
He traveled, you know, he went on trips sometimes, like
work trips or trips with the guys, and I never thought.
I just thought our love was so big, it was
so beautiful. I just didn't think anything would happen. It
really literally never entered my mind that he would cheat
on me. Sarah knew of this woman from around town.
(09:22):
She had heard that there was this sexy frenchwoman, but
she'd never met her, and she just had to see
her in person. So she decided to spy on her,
and she drove to where this other woman played tennis.
And I went to the racquet club for lunch with
my friend because I had never laid eyes on her,
and so she was on the courts playing and I
(09:42):
looked out and I was like, I'm so fucked. She
was so hot, so incredibly hot, a year older than
I am. I think she had a French accent. She
was beautiful, she was athletic, she was smart. God that sucks.
It sucked. I wanted her to be off and I
wanted to play young and dumb. Yeah, young and dumb anything,
(10:04):
But you know, she truly was going to be stiff
competition for me. He proclaimed that he was in love
with her, he was definitely going to marry her. He
was going to leave the family. It wasn't about me,
and it certainly wasn't about the kids. Keith moved in
with the sexy frenchwoman, but still Sarah was determined to
(10:26):
get him back. I thought, oh my gosh, we have
these children from other marriages that we've been raised together.
We had full custody of them. We have our own children.
I'm not like, I'm not doing this by myself. Besides,
we really do love each other. I know we do.
Sarah was not going to go down quietly. No, no, no, no.
She hatched a plan. She found out from some friends
(10:47):
around town. Small town. Remember, everyone knows everybody else's business.
She found out that this other woman was about to
take off to Europe for the whole summer. And so
I told my friends in my yard one night, drinking
Gens and Tonics and talking about the situation, I said,
I am going to seduce him while she's away. I
(11:09):
will do that. And that is going to cause a
problem between them, because he said that he's going to
be honest with her. He hasn't been honest with me,
but he is going to turn over a leaf and
be honest with her. So I did. I seduced him.
It's not hard to seduce him. And you guys got
back together. Yeah, and so, so basically I had accessed
(11:32):
the code to his answering machine. We had landlines back then,
in those clunky answering machines, and so you would call
the number and put in your code, and you could
hear the messages. And I could hear her saying, oh
could you do this to im? And too I love
and oh you know I'm suffering. I saw. I listened
to all of the messages, eagerly replayed them, enjoyed them.
And then I know I sound like an evil person,
(11:56):
but anyway, and then when she came back, she broke
it off, and so he moved back in. But could
it last? Could it? Given Keith's track record, was another
happy ending possible for Sarah? Passed forward three years. I
had a big Thanksgiving planned. I've hosted Thanksgiving every year,
(12:18):
and I had the house. I had done a lot
of the food already. It was Tuesday. Everyone was arriving
the next day. On Wednesday. We had everyone from his
side of the family coming, my side of the family coming,
and I decided to go for a run. And the
phone was ringing as I was leaving to go for
the run, and I almost didn't answer it, and I
was like, what if it's one of the kids' schools,
(12:39):
what if someone's sick. I guess I'd better answer, and
it answered it and it was the fiance of the
woman that he had had the affair with. By the way,
this is the new fiance of the sexy frenchwoman that
Keith had left Sarah for three years earlier. This new fiance, well,
(13:02):
he had some news. He discovered that the sexy frenchwoman
was still having an affair with Keith. You know, Keith
had still been seeing her. So I went to his office.
I called him in. I said, I've got to talk
to you, and he goes, I'm busy, I got appointments.
I go, I don't care. And then I went and
I just said, you're gonna get on the phone and
you're gonna call everyone and you're gonna tell him what
you did and why we're canceling Thanksgiving. But I'm not
(13:25):
doing Thanksgiving and I'm not having all these people come
in with this hanging around. There's no way. And at
that point there was just like it was like a
garage door that went down. I was done this time.
Sarah was finally and truly done. But she did tell
me that she doesn't regret getting him back for those
three years. She says she's happy that her kids got
(13:47):
three more years with both parents under the same roof.
Of course, she says that in hindsight, in the moment
she was insane with fury. It's sort of ironic how
we won't accept for ourselves what we're willing to do sometimes.
But I was furious. Yes, you were furious, and you
(14:08):
didn't expect it, and you were a little bit vidictive
about it. Can you talk to me about that? So
I went to take the children back to their dad's
house while he was living with her, and he was gone,
and they needed a book bag or a school bag something,
and so we went in to get their bag, and
(14:30):
I decided I was going to use the restroom, and
I saw her toilet rees sitting on the counter, and
I saw a jar of oil of La face cream,
and so I took a piss in the face cream
and took a toothpick and stirred it up and put
the lid back on, And then every time I saw
(14:52):
her after that, I thought, you're wearing my piss on
your face, and you've got my p your face, So yeah,
you were pissed. I was literally pissed. Right, Why do
you think that was even though you had been on
the other side of this. I was so sure of
our love. I was so sure of it. I expected
(15:13):
that we were going to bring our grand babies home
to that house where we had brought our children home,
to that big, beautiful house. I thought we were going
to continue to travel and throw parties and do all
the fun things. We just had a big life. There
was just no part of me believe that believed in
the dissolution of that. Weirdly, I asked Sarah if she
(15:37):
ever thought that maybe Keith's first wife felt the exact
same way about her all those years ago. I never
thought about that. Maybe so maybe. So how do you
feel about affairs now? I think it's really complicated. I
don't think there was really black and white in affairs.
I think that I have a lot of empathy and
(15:57):
compassion for people who fall in love and are married
to other people. I have good friends to whom this
has happened, and so I have compassion for it, and
I'm also revolted by it. I hate affairs, so I mean,
unpack that a little bit for me. How can you
feel that way when it also brought you the person
(16:18):
who was, for a time the love of your life
and two more of your kids. I guess I've never
stopped to think about that. I guess when I'm mad
about affairs, it's typically happening to someone that I care
very much about. And I don't care about the affair
that's going on out there where I'm not connected to
the person. That's their business. And you know, people have affairs,
(16:40):
but if it's happening to someone I love, it depends
on which side they're on. If they're having the affair,
I have empathy for them. If it's happening to them,
I'm curious. I had to know if Sarah's experience has
made her think at all differently about monogamy, if her
ideas about it have shifted after everything that she's been through.
(17:01):
So I have friends, and I think maybe younger people
are figuring this out in our defining relationships in different ways.
And I think They're basically saying, we're not going to
do what our parents did, which was lie and cheat
and revise stories and tell us lies for all of
our lives. We are going to do it our way.
(17:22):
We realize that we don't want to be monogamous, so
we are in an open relationship. And I do appreciate
the fact that polyamorous people and thruffles and open marriages
might bring some relief to the tension and pressure that
affairs brought to us. I know affairs are still going
on to this day, but I think millennials and gen
(17:45):
zers are figuring out a little bit better. Maybe. And Yet,
while polyamory and open marriages seem to be an answer
for some women, at least some women in a certain
generation with certain privileges, they could also come with the
same messages, the same drama, the same disappointments. There may
(18:06):
not be lying, but there are still people who are
going to get hurt and boundaries that need to be
constantly renegotiated every time they're crossed. But back to Sarah
for a second. Sarah did eventually get her happy ending,
it just wasn't the one that she expected. I was
(18:26):
never going to get married again, I'm obviously not very
good at marriage, and I'm okay with accepting that about myself.
But with my current husband, as I call him, he
hates to be called out, but I call him that.
We've been together twenty he's just the opposite of Keith,
and we have such such a wonderful relationship and such
a happy life. So it turns out that happy lives
(18:48):
can happen even if you hold on to that one
that you think this is it and I can't let
it go. If you just open up, I'm so much
better off. I mean, it's been wonderful. Affairs usually don't
go according to plan, but then neither does life. After
the break, we'll get back to the questions we sit
(19:10):
out to answer at the beginning of this podcast, are
more women having affairs? And if women are cheating more?
Why we are back? So after all of these conversations
and everything I've learned about women and affairs, I went
back to Susan Shapiro Barish, the author of the book
(19:31):
this podcast is based on. Susan has interviewed hundreds of
women who've had affairs over the past thirty years, and
she was able to tell me that through her research.
She can tell us that women absolutely are having more
affairs these days, and they're talking about it more so.
I do think there's an increase, and that includes affairs
(19:52):
of the mind and workplace affairs and just all sorts
of affairs. As I write in my book, you can
find these low vers at every turn. Accessibility to one's
lover has really evolved since I started this study, and
the access to a lover is so facil and so easy,
(20:16):
and women found that really encouraging. I mean, some women
described it as a really good reason to do it.
You know, it's so easy to go on Facebook. Women say, well,
you know, I'm about ready, I'm disappointed enough, I'm disillusioned enough.
I've been at this a long time and I have
access and I would like to explore it. So that's
(20:39):
really something that's evolved. We called this show She Wants More.
We called it that because it's about women going after
what they want, breaking barriers, destroying stigmas, finding empowerment in
places that have been closed off to them by society
and culture for so long. At the end of the day,
affairs can empower you, and they can also leave a
(21:03):
mess in their wake. But there's still the fact that
women tend to be judged much more harshly for their
affairs than men do. That is why we needed to
hear these stories. We needed to hear these stories so
we can talk about it. We need to hear these
stories so we can figure out what we all want
(21:23):
and deserve. If we've learned anything making this podcast, there's
nothing wrong with wanting to be happy and fulfilled. There's
nothing wrong with wanting more. Did you take my coffee?
Didn't touch a coffee? Oh that's my husband Nick. He
always pops in on my podcasts and we've managed to
(21:46):
keep him off this one until right now. All right,
are you going to go have an affair? Now? No,
I'm tired, I'm stressed, I have a million jobs. I
mostly don't even want to have sex with you. Oh
isn't that precious? Oh? No idea. But also, look, I'm
(22:08):
pretty happy on the happiness and fulfilled human scale, I'm
like a nine. But there are a lot of women
out there who are not happy in their marriages, who
don't feel fulfilled, who don't have husbands, who take both
kids to school in the morning like you just did,
and who are not getting what they need. And I
(22:29):
talk to those women and I get that they deserve
something else outside of their marriage, and do I think
it's right? Not always, but it's not my place to judge.
And frankly, men have been having the affairs forever, and
I think it's just time that women get the same.
(22:51):
Goddamn grace. I have a lot of questions about that.
But so you're going to delete that Ashley Madison account?
Oh shit, totally forgot that was still out there. Wait
do you see mine? This has been She Wants More.
(23:14):
All eight episodes are now available for you to binge
and share with your friends. I hope it starts some
fun conversations. She Wants More was inspired by the book
A Passion for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish. It was
adapted for audio by executive producers Merrill Poster, Kara Pfeiffer,
(23:37):
and Susan Shapiro Bearish. She Wants More is hosted and
reported by me Joe Piazza. Jennifer Bassett is our lead
producer and story editor. Our sound design is by Jessica Crunchich.
Our theme was composed by Anna Stumpff and Hamilton Lighthouser.
Our Executive producers for iHeart are Ali Perry and Nikki Eatore.
(23:58):
She wants more as a production of iHeart podcasts. From
more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
So I met him at his office one evening. The
sex was great, and then it just was a whirlwind.
It was a crazy whirlwind, like maybe a few weeks
into it or a month into it, I said, hey,
we've got to stop this. You've got a family. I've
got a family. And so he went home that night
without telling me and told his wife. It was so
scary because it blew up all over this small town.
(00:29):
That's Sarah. She was a young, married mom at her
twenties when she first met Keith. Keith was her daughter's pediatrician.
He was also married with a young child. But the
feeling between the two of them was electric, and Sarah
couldn't help herself. There was a force, there was an
energy around our being togethered that was unexpected. Then Keith
(00:54):
told his wife, and his wife, as you might expect,
told everyone. Suddenly, Sarah and Keith's affair blew up both
of their lives, but it didn't matter. Sarah was in
love and it seemed worth it, and for a while
it actually ended up working out for her. Sarah and
(01:14):
Keith got married. I thought our life was the best
life in the world. We just lived life fully. We
traveled we took our children places, we were involved in
the community, we had good careers, We loved each other.
But then her life blew up again. This is she
wants more. I'm your host, Joe Piazza. Over the past
(01:38):
seven episodes, we've heard from numerous women who have cheated
on we are currently cheating on their partners. Every story
is different, but we do keep hearing some common themes.
We hear that these affairs tend to empower women, boost
their self esteem, enrich their sex lives, and sometimes they
even find the love that they've been missing in their marriage.
(02:00):
And I've got to tell you, sometimes these interviews have
made infidelity seem dreaming, like they're the fountain of youth
or the secret sauce to a more complete and lovely existence. Today,
in our final episode, we're hearing a different kind of story.
This is a story that began as a love affair,
(02:22):
but then there were consequences. It's also a story about karma,
and karma, my friends, is a real bitch, and we'll
hear all about it after the break we are back.
(02:45):
Sarah felt like a new woman when she started the
affair with Keith. But let's back up a little bit,
because I want to hear the whole story. I want
us to start at the very beginning of Sarah's first marriage.
Before she met Keith, I was married, and I wouldn't
say that it was an unhappy marriage at all. I
would say it was a marriage like other marriages. You know,
(03:07):
the head its great weeks, and it head it's not
so great weeks. But it was just a nice, steady,
little marriage. And I was young. I was twenty five,
I had a child, a baby. My daughter was not
yet a year old when I met Keith, and he
was her doctor, and he had some running magazines in
the lobby and I was reading them, and so we
(03:28):
started talking about the fact that we both run. They
were both into running, and Keith was pretty saxy. That
didn't hurt. The two of them went for a run
one day and the feeling between them was something Karen
had never felt before, and afterwards ended up talking for
(03:49):
probably two hours. I found it so easy to be
with him, and there was just a sparkle. We didn't
want to leave after the run, so and that started it.
So they began an affair a few months ago by
but then Sarah's guilt took over and she told Keith
that this just couldn't happen. It had to end. I said, hey,
(04:10):
we've got to stop this. We've got families. You've got
a family, I've got a family. We can't do this.
So he went home and he said, if we go
back to our families, all I'm going to lose you.
I have to say that what Keith did next is
a pretty big, a whole move, And so he went
home that night without telling me and told his wife.
It was so scary because it blew up all over
(04:33):
this small town and became town knowledge. It was on
the front burner of the town until the next affair
came along and blew us away, which was a relief
for me. Become sort of outcast in the town's eyes,
and then your children's friends parents become very put off
by you. And that's always hard because when it affects
your children, you feel it. It's more painful. Everyone was
(04:54):
gossiping about Sarah and Keith. Everyone had an opinion, and
in the moment that felt like complete shit. But in hindsight,
Sarah realized something that I actually found fascinating. You know
what's interesting is I've discovered this numerous times, not just
(05:18):
with this affair, but the people who come out the
loudest and the strongest against an affair. The people who
are the most indignant are generally the people who are divorced.
A year later, it resonates, it strikes accord with him somewhere.
For instance, the woman who played the organ in our
(05:39):
church in our small town, she hated me, and she
was vicious in her hatred. You know, some people just
sort of mildly dislike you or kind of just move
away from you, but she made sure that I knew
how much she hated me. Within a year she was divorced.
The same thing happened with my brother. My brother wouldn't
speak to me because he loved ex husband. He was
(06:01):
having an affair at the same time too, but he
was indignant about mine. That's the kind of the weird
thing about affairs is like, when you're in one, you
feel like it's right and that you have the right
to do it because you are in love and this
love is bigger than whatever else is out there. But
then you become indignant about, you know, your best friend's
(06:24):
husband leaving her so interesting right. Eventually, Keith and Sarah
ended up leaving their marriages for each other, and they
were so in love that all of the gossip didn't matter.
They traveled, they had a great house, they blended their families,
and they even had kids together. It lasted like this
for more than a decade. Sarah really thought that what
(06:45):
she and Keith had was going to last forever, that
it was a forever love, until one day something changed.
It really literally never entered my mind that he would
cheat on me. I just thought our love was so big,
it was so beautiful. I just didn't think anything would happen.
Talk me through When that happened, I felt a shift
(07:08):
between us and I wasn't sure what was going on,
and I think that at some point I said, are
you having an affair? And he said no. And then
one day I went into his office. Our offices were
right next door to each other. I popped in on
him and he was on the phone and I could
hear the voice on the other line was a woman,
and so when he hung up, I said, so, who
are you talking to? And then he named his best friend,
(07:33):
a guy. That's when I knew that he was having
an affair. And then he said, I need to talk
to you and then we met at home. He said
we need to go for a drive. The way he
told me it was awful because I mean, I guess
there's not a good way to tell someone, right, but
you would think there would be some dignity around it
(07:53):
where you could have some time and space. Basically, I
found out and had to take my kids to soccer.
So I drove about a block away from our house
and kind of went down this lane into a little
field and said I'm in love with someone else. And
I was furious and asking who it was, and then
he wouldn't tell me. And when I got out of
(08:14):
the car, I kicked the door on the passenger side
so hard that it was horribly bashed in and beaten up.
And I just thought, well, every time she gets into
the car, she's going to have to think about me.
Sarah was shocked. She was shocked, and she was pissed.
And now at this point in the story, you might
(08:35):
be thinking, what I did, Sarah, You and Keith got
together because of an affair, because you both cheated on
other people. Why are you so surprised that Keith did
this to you? Well, she was surprised. We never see
things coming Sarah was completely blindsided. I never had doubts.
(09:00):
He traveled, you know, he went on trips sometimes, like
work trips or trips with the guys, and I never thought.
I just thought our love was so big, it was
so beautiful. I just didn't think anything would happen. It
really literally never entered my mind that he would cheat
on me. Sarah knew of this woman from around town.
(09:22):
She had heard that there was this sexy frenchwoman, but
she'd never met her, and she just had to see
her in person. So she decided to spy on her,
and she drove to where this other woman played tennis.
And I went to the racquet club for lunch with
my friend because I had never laid eyes on her,
and so she was on the courts playing and I
(09:42):
looked out and I was like, I'm so fucked. She
was so hot, so incredibly hot, a year older than
I am. I think she had a French accent. She
was beautiful, she was athletic, she was smart. God that sucks.
It sucked. I wanted her to be off and I
wanted to play young and dumb. Yeah, young and dumb anything,
(10:04):
But you know, she truly was going to be stiff
competition for me. He proclaimed that he was in love
with her, he was definitely going to marry her. He
was going to leave the family. It wasn't about me,
and it certainly wasn't about the kids. Keith moved in
with the sexy frenchwoman, but still Sarah was determined to
(10:26):
get him back. I thought, oh my gosh, we have
these children from other marriages that we've been raised together.
We had full custody of them. We have our own children.
I'm not like, I'm not doing this by myself. Besides,
we really do love each other. I know we do.
Sarah was not going to go down quietly. No, no, no, no.
She hatched a plan. She found out from some friends
(10:47):
around town. Small town. Remember, everyone knows everybody else's business.
She found out that this other woman was about to
take off to Europe for the whole summer. And so
I told my friends in my yard one night, drinking
Gens and Tonics and talking about the situation, I said,
I am going to seduce him while she's away. I
(11:09):
will do that. And that is going to cause a
problem between them, because he said that he's going to
be honest with her. He hasn't been honest with me,
but he is going to turn over a leaf and
be honest with her. So I did. I seduced him.
It's not hard to seduce him. And you guys got
back together. Yeah, and so, so basically I had accessed
(11:32):
the code to his answering machine. We had landlines back then,
in those clunky answering machines, and so you would call
the number and put in your code, and you could
hear the messages. And I could hear her saying, oh
could you do this to im? And too I love
and oh you know I'm suffering. I saw. I listened
to all of the messages, eagerly replayed them, enjoyed them.
And then I know I sound like an evil person,
(11:56):
but anyway, and then when she came back, she broke
it off, and so he moved back in. But could
it last? Could it? Given Keith's track record, was another
happy ending possible for Sarah? Passed forward three years. I
had a big Thanksgiving planned. I've hosted Thanksgiving every year,
(12:18):
and I had the house. I had done a lot
of the food already. It was Tuesday. Everyone was arriving
the next day. On Wednesday. We had everyone from his
side of the family coming, my side of the family coming,
and I decided to go for a run. And the
phone was ringing as I was leaving to go for
the run, and I almost didn't answer it, and I
was like, what if it's one of the kids' schools,
(12:39):
what if someone's sick. I guess I'd better answer, and
it answered it and it was the fiance of the
woman that he had had the affair with. By the way,
this is the new fiance of the sexy frenchwoman that
Keith had left Sarah for three years earlier. This new fiance, well,
(13:02):
he had some news. He discovered that the sexy frenchwoman
was still having an affair with Keith. You know, Keith
had still been seeing her. So I went to his office.
I called him in. I said, I've got to talk
to you, and he goes, I'm busy, I got appointments.
I go, I don't care. And then I went and
I just said, you're gonna get on the phone and
you're gonna call everyone and you're gonna tell him what
you did and why we're canceling Thanksgiving. But I'm not
(13:25):
doing Thanksgiving and I'm not having all these people come
in with this hanging around. There's no way. And at
that point there was just like it was like a
garage door that went down. I was done this time.
Sarah was finally and truly done. But she did tell
me that she doesn't regret getting him back for those
three years. She says she's happy that her kids got
(13:47):
three more years with both parents under the same roof.
Of course, she says that in hindsight, in the moment
she was insane with fury. It's sort of ironic how
we won't accept for ourselves what we're willing to do sometimes.
But I was furious. Yes, you were furious, and you
(14:08):
didn't expect it, and you were a little bit vidictive
about it. Can you talk to me about that? So
I went to take the children back to their dad's
house while he was living with her, and he was gone,
and they needed a book bag or a school bag something,
and so we went in to get their bag, and
(14:30):
I decided I was going to use the restroom, and
I saw her toilet rees sitting on the counter, and
I saw a jar of oil of La face cream,
and so I took a piss in the face cream
and took a toothpick and stirred it up and put
the lid back on, And then every time I saw
(14:52):
her after that, I thought, you're wearing my piss on
your face, and you've got my p your face, So yeah,
you were pissed. I was literally pissed. Right, Why do
you think that was even though you had been on
the other side of this. I was so sure of
our love. I was so sure of it. I expected
(15:13):
that we were going to bring our grand babies home
to that house where we had brought our children home,
to that big, beautiful house. I thought we were going
to continue to travel and throw parties and do all
the fun things. We just had a big life. There
was just no part of me believe that believed in
the dissolution of that. Weirdly, I asked Sarah if she
(15:37):
ever thought that maybe Keith's first wife felt the exact
same way about her all those years ago. I never
thought about that. Maybe so maybe. So how do you
feel about affairs now? I think it's really complicated. I
don't think there was really black and white in affairs.
I think that I have a lot of empathy and
(15:57):
compassion for people who fall in love and are married
to other people. I have good friends to whom this
has happened, and so I have compassion for it, and
I'm also revolted by it. I hate affairs, so I mean,
unpack that a little bit for me. How can you
feel that way when it also brought you the person
(16:18):
who was, for a time the love of your life
and two more of your kids. I guess I've never
stopped to think about that. I guess when I'm mad
about affairs, it's typically happening to someone that I care
very much about. And I don't care about the affair
that's going on out there where I'm not connected to
the person. That's their business. And you know, people have affairs,
(16:40):
but if it's happening to someone I love, it depends
on which side they're on. If they're having the affair,
I have empathy for them. If it's happening to them,
I'm curious. I had to know if Sarah's experience has
made her think at all differently about monogamy, if her
ideas about it have shifted after everything that she's been through.
(17:01):
So I have friends, and I think maybe younger people
are figuring this out in our defining relationships in different ways.
And I think They're basically saying, we're not going to
do what our parents did, which was lie and cheat
and revise stories and tell us lies for all of
our lives. We are going to do it our way.
(17:22):
We realize that we don't want to be monogamous, so
we are in an open relationship. And I do appreciate
the fact that polyamorous people and thruffles and open marriages
might bring some relief to the tension and pressure that
affairs brought to us. I know affairs are still going
on to this day, but I think millennials and gen
(17:45):
zers are figuring out a little bit better. Maybe. And Yet,
while polyamory and open marriages seem to be an answer
for some women, at least some women in a certain
generation with certain privileges, they could also come with the
same messages, the same drama, the same disappointments. There may
(18:06):
not be lying, but there are still people who are
going to get hurt and boundaries that need to be
constantly renegotiated every time they're crossed. But back to Sarah
for a second. Sarah did eventually get her happy ending,
it just wasn't the one that she expected. I was
(18:26):
never going to get married again, I'm obviously not very
good at marriage, and I'm okay with accepting that about myself.
But with my current husband, as I call him, he
hates to be called out, but I call him that.
We've been together twenty he's just the opposite of Keith,
and we have such such a wonderful relationship and such
a happy life. So it turns out that happy lives
(18:48):
can happen even if you hold on to that one
that you think this is it and I can't let
it go. If you just open up, I'm so much
better off. I mean, it's been wonderful. Affairs usually don't
go according to plan, but then neither does life. After
the break, we'll get back to the questions we sit
(19:10):
out to answer at the beginning of this podcast, are
more women having affairs? And if women are cheating more?
Why we are back? So after all of these conversations
and everything I've learned about women and affairs, I went
back to Susan Shapiro Barish, the author of the book
(19:31):
this podcast is based on. Susan has interviewed hundreds of
women who've had affairs over the past thirty years, and
she was able to tell me that through her research.
She can tell us that women absolutely are having more
affairs these days, and they're talking about it more so.
I do think there's an increase, and that includes affairs
(19:52):
of the mind and workplace affairs and just all sorts
of affairs. As I write in my book, you can
find these low vers at every turn. Accessibility to one's
lover has really evolved since I started this study, and
the access to a lover is so facil and so easy,
(20:16):
and women found that really encouraging. I mean, some women
described it as a really good reason to do it.
You know, it's so easy to go on Facebook. Women say, well,
you know, I'm about ready, I'm disappointed enough, I'm disillusioned enough.
I've been at this a long time and I have
access and I would like to explore it. So that's
(20:39):
really something that's evolved. We called this show She Wants More.
We called it that because it's about women going after
what they want, breaking barriers, destroying stigmas, finding empowerment in
places that have been closed off to them by society
and culture for so long. At the end of the day,
affairs can empower you, and they can also leave a
(21:03):
mess in their wake. But there's still the fact that
women tend to be judged much more harshly for their
affairs than men do. That is why we needed to
hear these stories. We needed to hear these stories so
we can talk about it. We need to hear these
stories so we can figure out what we all want
(21:23):
and deserve. If we've learned anything making this podcast, there's
nothing wrong with wanting to be happy and fulfilled. There's
nothing wrong with wanting more. Did you take my coffee?
Didn't touch a coffee? Oh that's my husband Nick. He
always pops in on my podcasts and we've managed to
(21:46):
keep him off this one until right now. All right,
are you going to go have an affair? Now? No,
I'm tired, I'm stressed, I have a million jobs. I
mostly don't even want to have sex with you. Oh
isn't that precious? Oh? No idea. But also, look, I'm
(22:08):
pretty happy on the happiness and fulfilled human scale, I'm
like a nine. But there are a lot of women
out there who are not happy in their marriages, who
don't feel fulfilled, who don't have husbands, who take both
kids to school in the morning like you just did,
and who are not getting what they need. And I
(22:29):
talk to those women and I get that they deserve
something else outside of their marriage, and do I think
it's right? Not always, but it's not my place to judge.
And frankly, men have been having the affairs forever, and
I think it's just time that women get the same.
(22:51):
Goddamn grace. I have a lot of questions about that.
But so you're going to delete that Ashley Madison account?
Oh shit, totally forgot that was still out there. Wait
do you see mine? This has been She Wants More.
(23:14):
All eight episodes are now available for you to binge
and share with your friends. I hope it starts some
fun conversations. She Wants More was inspired by the book
A Passion for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish. It was
adapted for audio by executive producers Merrill Poster, Kara Pfeiffer,
(23:37):
and Susan Shapiro Bearish. She Wants More is hosted and
reported by me Joe Piazza. Jennifer Bassett is our lead
producer and story editor. Our sound design is by Jessica Crunchich.
Our theme was composed by Anna Stumpff and Hamilton Lighthouser.
Our Executive producers for iHeart are Ali Perry and Nikki Eatore.
(23:58):
She wants more as a production of iHeart podcasts. From
more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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