November 6, 2025 • 36 mins
From booze to unpaid bills, Mel Robbins shares all with Oliver and Mama Goldie, including what rock bottom looked like for her and how she pulled herself out of the depths of depression. Plus, what people do each morning that she calls a sign of giving up, and why pain - not positivity- is the greatest motivator.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
We wanted to do something that highlighted our.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Relationship and what it's like to be siblings. We are
a sibling railvalry.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
No, no, sibling. You don't do that with your mouth, revelry.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
That's good. So we're back Part two. The woman who
changed My diapers, Goldiehn and of course Mel Robbins. Yeah,
let's keep it. Let's keep it going, guys.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Because you went through a hard upbringing, you really, you
really did. And uh, but I wonder where that grit
came from. Because you you worked your way out of it.
You became more I would say, investigating your emotions and
trying to figure out how to move through some of
these darker memories and times. But did you ever think
(01:12):
that what you were going to do was to actually
come up with practices and ways and means that you know?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I mean, you were were you a good lawyer?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I was an excellent lawyer. I was a public defender.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
You're a public defense.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
That's because I was fighting for somebody else, right.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
And do you think that this translates into what you do?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I think the closest thing that I have done in
the past to what I do now. Is when I
was a legal aid lawyer and I was assigned to
represent people who did not pick me in a moment
where they had very difficult decisions to make and the
stress was at an all time high and I might
be the only person in their corner. And so, you know,
(01:48):
one thing that I will just say that that you know,
for me, my childhood was fine. It was in my
forties when things got horrible. And oh yeah, so my childhood.
I grew up in the Midwest. My parents were great,
Like I had a My childhood was fine. Siblings, Yeah,
(02:10):
I have a younger brother. My sister in law who
he's married to, is my business partner. I like. So
that my life started to fall apart really in my
thirties and forties, and it was kind of the compounding
aspect of undiagnosed anxiety.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Undiagnosed was in an emotional fall apart, you know, or
was it.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I don't think anybody ever wakes up and says, you
know what, today, I'm going to screw up my life.
I think I'm going to snort a bunch of cop
and shoot on my spouse and drive my car and
quit my job, say something that gets me canceled, Like
nobody does that intentionally. And what happens is you start
to make small decisions that aren't aligned with your higher
(02:54):
calling and who you know yourself to be, and they
start to slow take you off.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Did you recognize in the moment that you were making
these decisions.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
At no, when you're asking for the next beer or
you're like, no, you're spending too much money that you
don't have.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Now, I've been in those doldrums and there is a
part of me that knows though that, oh, this is
But I thank.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
You you have more self awareness than I did. Like
I literally just was trying my best to get through
my life and keep up with the Joneses and make
money and you know, not hate my husband too much.
And I just get through it. And I found myself
in my forties. And I'm grateful for this. I am
so grateful that success came later. Because if you have
(03:38):
an experience where your house has leans on it, you're
eight hundred thousand dollars in debt, you cannot pay for groceries,
you're pulling your kids out of town soccer. Your friends
and family have invested in your husband's pizza restaurant, you're
now unemployed. When you have that experience, you don't forget it.
And when you almost lose your family and your house
(04:00):
and your sanity, you don't take it for granted. And
so all I was trying to do, honestly, Goldie, Goldie
was I recognized as hard as my husband was working
to try to fix what was happening in our life,
like it wasn't working. And at some point, if I
wanted the if I wanted to keep the house, if
(04:22):
I wanted to get out of debt, if I wanted
to feel better, I couldn't lay in bed like a
human pot roast. I couldn't like drink myself into the ground.
I had to do something.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
If you ever want to give up, I don't know
if that I.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Think giving up was. I didn't want to kill myself,
but I think what giving what giving up feels like,
is you give up all day long. If you wake
up in the morning, the first thing that you feel
is dread and you hit the snooze button, you just
gave up. If you hit it again, you give up again.
You hit it again, you give up again. If you
grab the donut instead, of making yourself some eggs. You've
(04:56):
kind of given up a little bit. And I'm not
saying there's not a lot of compl caterd things go
into those types of decisions.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Dont the other day you dont?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I mean I eat donuts all the time. But what
oh hell, yes, you were absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
And that was there was a numbing effect that you want.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
To know how bad things got. This is how you
know you're failing at parenting. When the kids go to bed,
you start drinking Manhattan. It's like four or five of them.
And then the next thing you remember is when you
wake up in a chair in the living room because
your three kids have missed the bus and they're making
you up. That's how you know you're failing.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
This parenting thah And so.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
That was happening. Yeah, And what you know, and this
is the thing that I talk about a lot because
I experienced it, is you can know what to do,
but how do you make yourself do it? That's the
fifte That's it right there, that's right there. I knew
I needed a job. I knew I needed to stop screaming, Chris.
(06:00):
I knew I needed to stop yelling at the kids.
I knew I needed to tell my parents what was happening.
I knew I needed to open the bills that had
been piling up for six months. I couldn't do it.
And what all the psychologists in researching the various books
I've written, and now I feel confirmed by my own experience,
and you, of course know this, is that there is
(06:21):
a tremendous relationship between pain and the will to change.
And it's a fantasy to think that most of us
are positively motivated to change. The human brain, because of
the negativity bias, is actually wired to default towards what's easy.
Now you have to make a conscious, intentional decision to
(06:45):
force yourself to do things that feel hard if you
want to change. And for most of us, I am
very negatively motivated. So I'm stubborn, like it took a
lot of pain for me to get to a point
where I'm like, well, drinking myself into a ground, destroying
my marriage, not paying bills, feeling this level of shame.
(07:06):
Sitting here is now harder than getting out of bed.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I can relate to that.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And so understanding that you can either let your life
get worse before it gets better, because it's going to
it's going to get worse. Or you can decide that
where you're at is no longer where you want to be,
and you can recognize your never motivation is complete better garbage.
(07:31):
You're never going to feel like doing what you need
to do. You have to force yourself to do it.
That's the skills.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
You have a lot of stop and starts.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Always every day.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I'm speaking of my own experience. Boom, I'm fucking on it.
I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm going to be healthy,
I'm going to get my life together and bang, it's great.
Three weeks and then oh no, what happened? Here? I
am again.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yes, you listen to how you felt instead of focusing
on what you need to do right and.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So what point do that was that true inflection point?
It was just like, okay, here we are, I am
moving on to the next part of my life.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So I think you change your life with one decision.
The results the results of that decision show up over time.
There's a big difference between the will and the desire
to change, which begins with a singular decision, and the
results that show up because you keep showing up and
it is always fits and starts. It is a myth
that you will be perfect like a robot. In fact,
(08:25):
the Strava is this great fitness app and name on it. Well,
they've crunched all the data and there's actually a day
that is called quitter's day based on million, hundreds of
millions of pieces of data. Yeah, day nineteen is the
average day when people quit. And the reason why is
because you have forced yourself to start something new. You
(08:48):
have recognized that it's going to be challenging, and you've
pushed yourself through it. But by day nineteen it's now
grueling and boring and you don't see the results yet.
And that's when most people are getting a dope reaction
correct and that's when most people give up, is right
around day nineteen. And what I love, though, is this
piece of research because a lot of us we are
(09:09):
always going to go and fits and starts. That's just
how it goes. And so I want you to think
about change, like climbing a staircase with landings. When you
go up a flight of stairs, if you get to
a landing, you're still up that flight of stairs. The
landing is just a plateau. And most of us think
that we failed. No, no, no, it's just a plateau. You
(09:31):
still keep the game when you go up the next
flight and push yourself again after not going to the
gym for the week. You didn't lose that flight. You
already climbed. And it's a mistake to think you're going
back to zero because you're not giving yourself the credit
for how far you've come.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Also, there's an idea that once you get excited about
what you're doing right, it's like playing a piano. You
love your first lessons, they're really terrific. Yeah, but you
can't learn to play the piano in a day or
a month or even six months. You have to stay
practicing all the time in order for that to happen.
(10:13):
And it's the same thing with behavior. It's the same
thing with creating more habitual behavior in your brain. So
we have to realize and be patient with ourselves to
know And that's what that's I love that analogy. That's
the landing. Yeah, it's that landing is a place for incubation.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Well, you know, one of the things that I think
a lot about is you mentioned grit and I recently
sat down with Professor Angela Duckworth who wrote that big
book about grit. And I was floored because I never
knew this that when she studied grit, that there is
four requirements in order for somebody to demonstrate grit. And
(10:53):
there's one particular requirement that nobody talks about, and that's
that you actually like and want to be good at
the thing. It is impossible, I think, to be really
good at something that you don't really like. But you
can teach yourself, just like I've taught myself how to
unload the dishwasher. I don't like doing it, but I
(11:15):
make myself do.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
It, right.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I don't like folding on, but I make myself do it.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, And when it wash dishes, which I do, monte
me too. And I'd rather wash the clothes than fold them.
I don't know what that is.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
But what is it but that moment, I mean, now
you're in your forties and then bang, oh, what happened?
What happened?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I was wasted on bourbon and I was having a
pep talk with myself. I don't know if you've ever
you probably have. Yeah, when you're speaking out well loud, yeah,
Like it's one thing if you're giving a friend advice I.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Have screamed at myself in the mirror. Get it together,
all of it, get it together.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yes, okay. So I was doing that and I was
watching TV. It was February two thousand and eight, and
it was like, that's it woman. Tomorrow, Tomorrow, it's the
new yub. Tomorrow, we're going to get a job. You're
gonna be nice to Chris, You're going to stop drinking.
And tomorrow when that alarm rings, you are not going
to lay there like a human pop roast. You are
(12:13):
going to get out of bed and get those kids
on that bus. And honest to God, at that exact moment,
a rocket ship blasted across the TV screen at the
end of a commercial, and I was so drunk. I
was like, it's a side for God. I hear you.
I'll launch myself out of bed like a rocket. It
(12:33):
was honestly, probably the bourbon and divine intervenes little together
in one gigantic life changing cocktail. But here's the thing, everybody,
I believe that you are designed to thrive and grow
and be happy, and even when you're miserable and stuck,
there are so many glimmers and signs all around you
(12:55):
to pay attention, and that was.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
My Ah, do you believe in signs? Of course, I
am metaphysicality.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
I am an expert manifestor. I train my brain to
work for me. I look for signs all day long.
I believe that the let Them theory success, and just
the jaw dropping success of my podcast and the let
Them theory, the timing of when this book came out.
It cannot be explained by anything other than hard work
(13:38):
meets the universe guiding this as part of the counter
programming to the negativity and the collective illusion of division
that we see in the headlines, And that in any
moment in history when there is a rise of darkness,
there is a corresponding rise in light. And I feel
deeply connected to that. I do not feel that it
(14:01):
is me. I feel very much in service of something
for way bigger than a human being. It is absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
I love hearing that, and I relate.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I really believe that. And I know you do. I
know you do. I mean, what is it that drives us?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
You know?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
It isn't necessarily tangible.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
It's just a pull.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
It feels like a spiritual pull of some kind. That said,
if I'm going to if that is my thing, and
I'm going to be used to do this and I
make sense and people I'm feeling better. It's not about me,
it's about them.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yes, And that's what I'm.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Loving about your being about your all things that you're doing,
all the care that you're giving, and all the enthusiasm
around how you are participating, not just in your life
but in there.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Does success scare you at all?
Speaker 2 (14:54):
No, because I know what matters to me. Like you've
never seen a hearse pull on a you all like
you're not going to take anything with you, but you're
going to leave something important in how you lived your
life while you're doing it.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
It is an incredible sense of not just belonging. And
I will say purpose because that purpose is one of
the areas that some people don't feel they have any purpose.
That's not a good feeling.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
But here's your purpose. The purpose, Your purpose is you.
If you don't know what to focus on, make being
a better version of yourself your single biggest project. Because
change does not come from the top, No change comes
from within. And when you become just just a little
bit happy, a little bit better, a little bit more positive,
(15:41):
you feel a little bit more hopeful you take a
little bit better care of yourself. It ripples through your family.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I'm sure you make yourself better. That's it. That's it.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
And it literally like, do not be gas lit into
believing you have no power. You are powerful beyond your
wildest imaginations, as long as you stop giving your power
away to other people into the headlines you said, the
turn off the news, put down your phone.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
I also think you have to give yourself grace because
I think a lot of us don't work very hard
on ourselves because these are powerful words. They're inspiring, and
you get emboldened to go out there and do it,
and you make a five steps forward, and then you're
going to fall. And then sometimes we get hard on ourselves, like,
oh fuck, that's it. I give it a shot. I
(16:30):
can't have to give ourselves some grace.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Gave yourself the grace the moment you fall, because the
real skill isn't starting, it's that on when you have
a few days or weeks or months or a year
where you don't do what you want or need to do,
give yourself grace to then pick yourself back up.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Exactly one of the things I said to why he
was playing hockey and he was had a concussion. I
went there obviously made him breakfast, unch and dinner and
how to chef also if I'm not just kid, but
I went there and then we had breakfast the next
day and you know, I said, Tim, you know life,
really we're going to fall down and he's a goaltender.
(17:13):
We're going to get knocked down. That's what life is.
It's not that simple. However, the mark of the man
truly is how fast you get up. And it's like you,
if you're defending the goal, you got to get up fast, dude.
And that's really the way we are. That that is
a part of grit. That is a part of saying
I can. That also says I can defend this goal.
(17:34):
I can do that. And once you fall and it
doesn't work, you're going to say I'm getting up again,
and I'm starting all over. And and that is so
true because the whole idea of falling down, being knocked
down doesn't mean your life is over. It means that
you have the capability of get up, man, get right up,
because you're going to you'll win at the game of life.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Well, you're actually designed to, like if they can't remember
what the research is. But when a baby is learning
to walk, they fall an average of seventeen times an hour,
and no baby, because they don't have language yet when
they fall, lays there and goes, well, that's it, I'm
screwed the money, Never walk again, glad. We develop language,
(18:17):
and we become self critical, and we develop a narrative
that keeps us from getting up. And that's not to
say there's something wrong if you're there. It's to say
that if your brain learned to do that, your brain
can actually learn how to tell you to get up again.
And it's designed to how many kids you have, three,
(18:38):
twenty six, five and twenty Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So growing up, when they're growing up, when you were
in when you were in your.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Bad and my peak dysfunction, right, yes, Like, first of all.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
How was that being a parent?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Horrible?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah? Horrible? And were they did they recognize that? Mom?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
You know they didn't really they didn't, Like we didn't
start the heavy drinking until they were in bed. We
at least had some boundaries.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
And then on the other.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Side of it, weren't yellers or that kind of stuff,
like I yelled at Chris, but not I didn't I
mean I would event I would like all parents snap occasionally,
but now and.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Then with the on the other side of that, with
you being who you are right now and just this
vast not so much knowledge which I want to get
into for two seconds.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Times I'll learned the hard way by rocking everything up.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
That's right. But are you just so well read? Because
once you left this old life essentially and not that
they don't combine, but sort of moved into the next phase.
Were you just learning through reading and researching and studying
and having people on and having conversations, you know? Were
you a voracious sort of kind.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Of a voracious intellect. Yeah, I have a massive brain
and I didn't realize how much of an engine it was.
Like my superpower is to take the complex and distill
it down into a singular thing that's relevant to somebody
who is just trying to do a little better.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
You're so right.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
It's that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
When I listen to you. You're you're so engaged.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And because I've been listening for how is this relevant
to you?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Are? Because there's a million podcasts out there. Look, you know,
theories are theories, and people say this, and there's there's
cognitive therapy, all of it. But there's something about you.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I know what I'm doing very fucking engaged.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yes, it's your trustworthy and you are also listening authentically,
you know. I mean I think that for me feels
like you're superpowered. To me, it's like, wow, she's right there.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Thank you for reflecting that back to me. It's it's
about And You've used this word a number of times.
I'm an extremely intentional person and I'm very much driven
by mission and values. And if somebody is if somebody
somewhere around the world who has no time, by the way,
because they're working, they're caring for aging parents, they've got
(20:56):
little kids, they're running around, they got bills to pay.
So if you take a person like that who just
wants to do a little better and feel a little better,
and they're going to make time that they don't have
and they're going to spend it with me, you better
believe I'm going to do everything I possibly can to
make the time that they spend of value for them.
(21:17):
And so when I sit in the chair on my podcast,
I have that one person in mind and listen. I
know as much as the experts about the topic, because
I have read every single page of their book. I
have poured over the research. We spend probably thirty to
forty hours we do pre interviews. We then spend two
(21:37):
to three hours with every expert. We then spend another
fifty hours in post to make sure that if you're
going to spend an hour listening to the Mel Robins podcast,
you felt different, you felt better, you felt hopeful, and
it was valuable information either for you or that it
was a free resource to send to somebody else. And
(21:58):
the fact that we can all for that for free
because of our that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
And so it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I know my role there. And back to that thing
about success. You know, I am blown away by the
success of the podcast and the just jaw dropping success
of the let Them theory because it gives me hope.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Isn't it amazing? Because it's so it's just so simple.
It's a complexity, absolutely, but you know, and and it
came from a place of inspiration.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Well, it came from a place of I've always been
frustrated with my people pleasing and the friction I cause
in relationships and the jealousy that I feel and the
ways that I've held myself back because I feel like
if somebody else has it, then I can't have it,
like a very limited point of view, and so in
(22:58):
trying to work through those limitations, that's why the book
is what it is. I'm the villain, like I'm work
like all those stories are real, they're they're the things
I'm not proud to admit that I was feeling or experiencing,
and this theory profoundly changed me from the inside out.
But what I love about all this is it's a sign,
(23:20):
despite the headlines, that people want more meaning, they want
more connection. We are seeking ways to simplify our lives
because we have so over optimized for productivity and profit
making that we've lost touch with what actually gives you
meaning as a human being. And so I feel hopeful
(23:42):
that people are turning towards messages like your podcast and
mine to find a sense of power in your foundation
work and nonprofit. That people are wanting and knowing something's
deeply wrong, and yet there are things I can do
to make it better, because there are, But I am
grateful that you know it's happened when I'm fifty seven,
(24:04):
Like I live on a mountain in Vermont, yeah, I don't.
I don't see like I am so clear that I
just want to spend more time with my husband, Chris.
I want to make sure my kids still talk to me,
you know, and we have a good.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Always like mom, Okay, I know I've read the book.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I don't give them advice never, No, that's the worst
thing to do. Like I literally my phrase as a
parent is always do you want me to listen?
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Or do you like to know what I think? And
they always I just want you to listen. And so
I know my role as a wife and a friend
and as a mom as a daughter as I know
what my role is there and it is not what
I do for work. If I were work mell in
my life, I would probably be divorced and my kids
(24:50):
would hate me.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Right Oh god, yes.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
Oh I know.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
All right. Last thing? What are your what are your
hang ups? You know what I mean? What is Mel's issue?
What are male's issues? Like? What do you work on?
I mean? Do you still have things? We all do?
But are there things about you that you just need
to shift and change? And or do you feel pretty complete? Not? Not?
They will always be complete, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
I It's a great question. I I definitely am always
going to work on emotional reactivity. Like obviously, emotions or
chemical explosions good right, that happen, and if you don't
respond to them, they tend to rise and fall in
ninety seconds. But I've kind of gotten to a point
I've done enough emdr and psychedelic therapies and all that
(25:47):
kind of done psychedelic therapy we've actually done as a family.
We've had two therapists do guided MDMA therapy as a family.
And how was that life changing?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
It was life.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Changing, Absolutely, one of the most storder and Chris's eighty
six year old mother was with us. It is the
most life changing experience. But again we used the MAPS protocol,
we had two guides, therapists, a whole integration thing. You
know that last weeks afterwards, we're gonna do it again
(26:19):
this year before Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
And you've done a bunch of research on it.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Oh, absolutely absolutely, And so I you know, for me,
I think that it's just not allowing stupid shit to
hijack my emotions. And what I've come to learn is
that I'm self aware enough and I'm committed enough to
being peaceful and to holding space of acceptance and compassion
(26:46):
for myself and others that if I am a real bitch,
I typically need a sandwich or a nap, Like there's
like you know, there's the system is running on empty
because I've really changed like the person that I was
at fifty four when I first started creating this theory
(27:08):
and building the case for it, I mean, completely different
human being three years later because of let them as
a boundary between you and other people in the world.
It's a big one, and it helps you protect yourself,
and it helps you understand what's worth holding space up
here and what's worth allowing you to impact here. And
then let me part is where you do all the
(27:29):
work you talk about, Goldie, which is you get to
choose like this is how you take responsibility for your life,
and responsibility if you look at that word, it's just
the ability to respond, to respond to what's happening around you,
to respond to other people's moods and expectations and opinions,
and to choose consciously and intentionally to use your word.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Again, Yes, it's an interesting, longer discussion, but we're really
being challenged on.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That level right now.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
Yes, we are it's very very people are inflamed. It's
hard for them to grapple with their high level emotions
around the polarity about what's really going on. Perception people
have both different it all. There's a reason for it.
But I've never seen anything like this in my life,
and it is really debilitating. It's breaking people up, it's
(28:22):
losing friends. Yeah, there's a lot of things that are
basically happening because we can't let them.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
It's so true. You know, you guys should have on
Doctor Todd Rose. He's one of the most important guests
that I've had on the podcast Doctor Todd Rose. Todd
he was a professor at the Harvard Graduate School of
Education and then left to start a non partisan think ting.
(28:50):
He has the world's largest private data set of what
people believe, and what he does in his research is
he'll give you a list of I'll give you an
example the research. She'll give you sixty criteria and he
will ask you to go into a room privately and say, okay,
you two, I want you to rank what you privately
believes living a successful life means, and you have to
(29:13):
rank them in order. So it's not like it's this
or that rank them one to sixty, so you rank
them all. He's done this with I don't know, tens
of thousands of people, all different backgrounds, politically, spirituality, age, everything.
Do you know when you rank it privately. Of the
top ten things that people privately say this means a
successful life, eight are exactly the same. And then number
(29:36):
one criteria that people privately say means a successful life
is I have spent my life doing something that's meaningful
that makes a difference from other people. Now, when you
then ask each of you to take the same sixty
and go, okay, how do you think other people would
(29:57):
rank this and define success? Number one is money, status,
like all of it, none of which hits in the
top ten for most people out And his work is
all about the fact that we are living in this
collective illusion where the loudest voices, so ten eighty to
ninety percent of the content you see online is from
(30:18):
ten percent of the accounts that the loudest and most
extreme voices are now dominating the public discourse. And the
problem is the eighty to ninety percent of us are
self silencing. And when you self silence, your self silencing
because you actually believe that a majority of people agree
(30:40):
with this worship that you see happening in the news,
when the truth is and he has the research to
prove it, eighty to ninety percent of people want the
same things. Yeah, we may disagree on policy, but I
remember a time a decade ago where people actually worked together.
But something has happened in in terms of the way
(31:01):
that the media has been attacked and social media has
been hijacked and bots have come in. One out of
every four interactions you have online on social media is
with a bot, not a human being, and people don't
know this. Therefore we self silence, and there's a lot
of hope because the hope comes from and he's got
(31:21):
a lot of historical examples in the data. The second
that people start going this doesn't make sense, this doesn't
feel right, you start actually finding the courage to be authentic,
the whole illusion shatters. Just like the emperor with no clothes.
Nobody wants to say anything because it's the emperor, and
you know the emperor is cantankerous and mentally ill and
(31:44):
narcissistic and out for profit and power and so insecure.
But the second somebody goes this just you're naked, the
whole thing falls apart. And so I do feel very
hopeful because of the historical examples. And it's not going
to happen from top, it happens from within it. We
(32:06):
all have a role to exactly. So let them say
what they're going to say and focus on the Let
me part. Let me show up in my life in
a way where I feel authentic, where I am expressing
myself and my beliefs, where I am living in a
way where I'm aligned with my values and my sense
of character. And if I do that, trust you give
(32:28):
other people permission. I know that it's.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Really it is as to speak. Engagement did so, well,
how do you not lose yourself? You know, after all
the world, the work that you've done, and the time
you put in and everything that's happened with you. And
I said, well, if you know yourself, you won't lose yourself. Yes,
And I think the idea of how can we learn
(32:51):
more and be open and fair to ourselves as to
who we are and how we want to become one
that we have? Oh, I like myself, I have integrity,
you like being you? And we can work at that.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yes we can. It's just beautiful. I think that's why
I let them is so powerful because it teaches you
how to stop giving so much time and energy and
power to other people. Well, it teaches you to stop
looking out there for the actual validation that you need,
which needs to come from yourself exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
And one other's little thing that I had, which is
when I started the program, I was teaching brain science
because why we asked them to learn when they don't
know what they have, what tool they have. So it
was a way out there idea. It was like crazy
disturbance whatever. And people said to me, you will never
ever teach the brain and you will not get meditation
(33:47):
in the classroom. And my answer, watch.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Me, you did it.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
My point is is like I knew what what I
could do. I knew the research, I knew the things.
So anybody can say whatever they want, yes, let them
let them.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Right there, beautiful, And mom, what I took from all
of this is we're doing M D M A as
a family.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
You have to yes, now, it is the most extraordinary experience,
right but because you know what I like about it. Now,
what I like about it, you guys, is that it
suspends the amigdala. So you can, like you literally set
the intention and you revisit things in your life. But
what I love about it is that this you know,
(34:36):
you have your eyemask on, the music's the guy. The
second you do this, you're out of it. Like if
you have to go to the bathroom, you feel it
and then you're like, oh my god, where the I
gotta go to the bathroom and get back in it.
And so you don't like, I have no interest in
doing a drug like ayahuasca where I'm gonna puke and
purge and all the shout these strangers. So I can learn,
I can rely on myself. Yeah, I the things that
(35:01):
have been studied in clinical settings and that have this extraordin.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
What about psilocybin like Johns Hopkins are doing it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Absolutely, Like I haven't done the psilocybin because it goes
it can go a little dark. I prefer the things
that stay a little bit more in the.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Do you know scientifically chemically what's happening in the brain?
With the yes? Can you just quickly yes? So interesting?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Well, actually you know what I should do. I'm going
to send you instead the expert the two experts you
should have on the show that can actually explain what's
happening in it because it affects, Like what's so incredible
is that you know, if you actually you should have
doctor Lisa miller On from Columbia. She studies the noscience
(35:44):
of spirituality amazing well, so she can explain all this.
But if they're looking at the brain of somebody having
a spiritual experience, it looks exactly the same, whether it
is somebody chanting in tongues, somebody in deep meditation, somebody
having an orgasm, somebody in awe with nature, or somebody
(36:06):
having a deeply psychological or psychedelic because there is a
part of the brain that comes online where you are
disassociated from self and you are able to be in
the present moment without like managing your physical space. Like
it like, there's a part of the brain that locates
(36:26):
you in a physical space. Yes, and there's something about
these spiritual and psychedelic and other experiences that the brain
is designed to do. But it also removes you from
the physicality of the space and connects you with more
of the quantum field and that energetic aspect of the experience.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Beautiful, Yes, this is incredible. Thank you for taking the
time
Hi am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
We wanted to do something that highlighted our.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Relationship and what it's like to be siblings. We are
a sibling railvalry.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
No, no, sibling. You don't do that with your mouth, revelry.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
That's good. So we're back Part two. The woman who
changed My diapers, Goldiehn and of course Mel Robbins. Yeah,
let's keep it. Let's keep it going, guys.
Speaker 4 (00:50):
Because you went through a hard upbringing, you really, you
really did. And uh, but I wonder where that grit
came from. Because you you worked your way out of it.
You became more I would say, investigating your emotions and
trying to figure out how to move through some of
these darker memories and times. But did you ever think
(01:12):
that what you were going to do was to actually
come up with practices and ways and means that you know?
Speaker 1 (01:18):
I mean, you were were you a good lawyer?
Speaker 2 (01:21):
I was an excellent lawyer. I was a public defender.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
You're a public defense.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
That's because I was fighting for somebody else, right.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
And do you think that this translates into what you do?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
I think the closest thing that I have done in
the past to what I do now. Is when I
was a legal aid lawyer and I was assigned to
represent people who did not pick me in a moment
where they had very difficult decisions to make and the
stress was at an all time high and I might
be the only person in their corner. And so, you know,
(01:48):
one thing that I will just say that that you know,
for me, my childhood was fine. It was in my
forties when things got horrible. And oh yeah, so my childhood.
I grew up in the Midwest. My parents were great,
Like I had a My childhood was fine. Siblings, Yeah,
(02:10):
I have a younger brother. My sister in law who
he's married to, is my business partner. I like. So
that my life started to fall apart really in my
thirties and forties, and it was kind of the compounding
aspect of undiagnosed anxiety.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
Undiagnosed was in an emotional fall apart, you know, or
was it.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I don't think anybody ever wakes up and says, you
know what, today, I'm going to screw up my life.
I think I'm going to snort a bunch of cop
and shoot on my spouse and drive my car and
quit my job, say something that gets me canceled, Like
nobody does that intentionally. And what happens is you start
to make small decisions that aren't aligned with your higher
(02:54):
calling and who you know yourself to be, and they
start to slow take you off.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Did you recognize in the moment that you were making
these decisions.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
At no, when you're asking for the next beer or
you're like, no, you're spending too much money that you
don't have.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Now, I've been in those doldrums and there is a
part of me that knows though that, oh, this is
But I thank.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
You you have more self awareness than I did. Like
I literally just was trying my best to get through
my life and keep up with the Joneses and make
money and you know, not hate my husband too much.
And I just get through it. And I found myself
in my forties. And I'm grateful for this. I am
so grateful that success came later. Because if you have
(03:38):
an experience where your house has leans on it, you're
eight hundred thousand dollars in debt, you cannot pay for groceries,
you're pulling your kids out of town soccer. Your friends
and family have invested in your husband's pizza restaurant, you're
now unemployed. When you have that experience, you don't forget it.
And when you almost lose your family and your house
(04:00):
and your sanity, you don't take it for granted. And
so all I was trying to do, honestly, Goldie, Goldie
was I recognized as hard as my husband was working
to try to fix what was happening in our life,
like it wasn't working. And at some point, if I
wanted the if I wanted to keep the house, if
(04:22):
I wanted to get out of debt, if I wanted
to feel better, I couldn't lay in bed like a
human pot roast. I couldn't like drink myself into the ground.
I had to do something.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
If you ever want to give up, I don't know
if that I.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Think giving up was. I didn't want to kill myself,
but I think what giving what giving up feels like,
is you give up all day long. If you wake
up in the morning, the first thing that you feel
is dread and you hit the snooze button, you just
gave up. If you hit it again, you give up again.
You hit it again, you give up again. If you
grab the donut instead, of making yourself some eggs. You've
(04:56):
kind of given up a little bit. And I'm not
saying there's not a lot of compl caterd things go
into those types of decisions.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Dont the other day you dont?
Speaker 2 (05:09):
I mean I eat donuts all the time. But what
oh hell, yes, you were absolutely.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
And that was there was a numbing effect that you want.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
To know how bad things got. This is how you
know you're failing at parenting. When the kids go to bed,
you start drinking Manhattan. It's like four or five of them.
And then the next thing you remember is when you
wake up in a chair in the living room because
your three kids have missed the bus and they're making
you up. That's how you know you're failing.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
This parenting thah And so.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
That was happening. Yeah, And what you know, and this
is the thing that I talk about a lot because
I experienced it, is you can know what to do,
but how do you make yourself do it? That's the
fifte That's it right there, that's right there. I knew
I needed a job. I knew I needed to stop screaming, Chris.
(06:00):
I knew I needed to stop yelling at the kids.
I knew I needed to tell my parents what was happening.
I knew I needed to open the bills that had
been piling up for six months. I couldn't do it.
And what all the psychologists in researching the various books
I've written, and now I feel confirmed by my own experience,
and you, of course know this, is that there is
(06:21):
a tremendous relationship between pain and the will to change.
And it's a fantasy to think that most of us
are positively motivated to change. The human brain, because of
the negativity bias, is actually wired to default towards what's easy.
Now you have to make a conscious, intentional decision to
(06:45):
force yourself to do things that feel hard if you
want to change. And for most of us, I am
very negatively motivated. So I'm stubborn, like it took a
lot of pain for me to get to a point
where I'm like, well, drinking myself into a ground, destroying
my marriage, not paying bills, feeling this level of shame.
(07:06):
Sitting here is now harder than getting out of bed.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
I can relate to that.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
And so understanding that you can either let your life
get worse before it gets better, because it's going to
it's going to get worse. Or you can decide that
where you're at is no longer where you want to be,
and you can recognize your never motivation is complete better garbage.
(07:31):
You're never going to feel like doing what you need
to do. You have to force yourself to do it.
That's the skills.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
You have a lot of stop and starts.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Always every day.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I'm speaking of my own experience. Boom, I'm fucking on it.
I'm not going to drink anymore. I'm going to be healthy,
I'm going to get my life together and bang, it's great.
Three weeks and then oh no, what happened? Here? I
am again.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yes, you listen to how you felt instead of focusing
on what you need to do right and.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
So what point do that was that true inflection point?
It was just like, okay, here we are, I am
moving on to the next part of my life.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
So I think you change your life with one decision.
The results the results of that decision show up over time.
There's a big difference between the will and the desire
to change, which begins with a singular decision, and the
results that show up because you keep showing up and
it is always fits and starts. It is a myth
that you will be perfect like a robot. In fact,
(08:25):
the Strava is this great fitness app and name on it. Well,
they've crunched all the data and there's actually a day
that is called quitter's day based on million, hundreds of
millions of pieces of data. Yeah, day nineteen is the
average day when people quit. And the reason why is
because you have forced yourself to start something new. You
(08:48):
have recognized that it's going to be challenging, and you've
pushed yourself through it. But by day nineteen it's now
grueling and boring and you don't see the results yet.
And that's when most people are getting a dope reaction
correct and that's when most people give up, is right
around day nineteen. And what I love, though, is this
piece of research because a lot of us we are
(09:09):
always going to go and fits and starts. That's just
how it goes. And so I want you to think
about change, like climbing a staircase with landings. When you
go up a flight of stairs, if you get to
a landing, you're still up that flight of stairs. The
landing is just a plateau. And most of us think
that we failed. No, no, no, it's just a plateau. You
(09:31):
still keep the game when you go up the next
flight and push yourself again after not going to the
gym for the week. You didn't lose that flight. You
already climbed. And it's a mistake to think you're going
back to zero because you're not giving yourself the credit
for how far you've come.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Also, there's an idea that once you get excited about
what you're doing right, it's like playing a piano. You
love your first lessons, they're really terrific. Yeah, but you
can't learn to play the piano in a day or
a month or even six months. You have to stay
practicing all the time in order for that to happen.
(10:13):
And it's the same thing with behavior. It's the same
thing with creating more habitual behavior in your brain. So
we have to realize and be patient with ourselves to
know And that's what that's I love that analogy. That's
the landing. Yeah, it's that landing is a place for incubation.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Well, you know, one of the things that I think
a lot about is you mentioned grit and I recently
sat down with Professor Angela Duckworth who wrote that big
book about grit. And I was floored because I never
knew this that when she studied grit, that there is
four requirements in order for somebody to demonstrate grit. And
(10:53):
there's one particular requirement that nobody talks about, and that's
that you actually like and want to be good at
the thing. It is impossible, I think, to be really
good at something that you don't really like. But you
can teach yourself, just like I've taught myself how to
unload the dishwasher. I don't like doing it, but I
(11:15):
make myself do.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
It, right.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
I don't like folding on, but I make myself do it.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, And when it wash dishes, which I do, monte
me too. And I'd rather wash the clothes than fold them.
I don't know what that is.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
But what is it but that moment, I mean, now
you're in your forties and then bang, oh, what happened?
What happened?
Speaker 2 (11:35):
I was wasted on bourbon and I was having a
pep talk with myself. I don't know if you've ever
you probably have. Yeah, when you're speaking out well loud, yeah,
Like it's one thing if you're giving a friend advice I.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Have screamed at myself in the mirror. Get it together,
all of it, get it together.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
Yes, okay. So I was doing that and I was
watching TV. It was February two thousand and eight, and
it was like, that's it woman. Tomorrow, Tomorrow, it's the
new yub. Tomorrow, we're going to get a job. You're
gonna be nice to Chris, You're going to stop drinking.
And tomorrow when that alarm rings, you are not going
to lay there like a human pop roast. You are
(12:13):
going to get out of bed and get those kids
on that bus. And honest to God, at that exact moment,
a rocket ship blasted across the TV screen at the
end of a commercial, and I was so drunk. I
was like, it's a side for God. I hear you.
I'll launch myself out of bed like a rocket. It
(12:33):
was honestly, probably the bourbon and divine intervenes little together
in one gigantic life changing cocktail. But here's the thing, everybody,
I believe that you are designed to thrive and grow
and be happy, and even when you're miserable and stuck,
there are so many glimmers and signs all around you
(12:55):
to pay attention, and that was.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
My Ah, do you believe in signs? Of course, I
am metaphysicality.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
I am an expert manifestor. I train my brain to
work for me. I look for signs all day long.
I believe that the let Them theory success, and just
the jaw dropping success of my podcast and the let
Them theory, the timing of when this book came out.
It cannot be explained by anything other than hard work
(13:38):
meets the universe guiding this as part of the counter
programming to the negativity and the collective illusion of division
that we see in the headlines, And that in any
moment in history when there is a rise of darkness,
there is a corresponding rise in light. And I feel
deeply connected to that. I do not feel that it
(14:01):
is me. I feel very much in service of something
for way bigger than a human being. It is absolutely absolutely.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
I love hearing that, and I relate.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
I really believe that. And I know you do. I
know you do. I mean, what is it that drives us?
Speaker 1 (14:19):
You know?
Speaker 4 (14:19):
It isn't necessarily tangible.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
It's just a pull.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
It feels like a spiritual pull of some kind. That said,
if I'm going to if that is my thing, and
I'm going to be used to do this and I
make sense and people I'm feeling better. It's not about me,
it's about them.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Yes, And that's what I'm.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Loving about your being about your all things that you're doing,
all the care that you're giving, and all the enthusiasm
around how you are participating, not just in your life
but in there.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
Does success scare you at all?
Speaker 2 (14:54):
No, because I know what matters to me. Like you've
never seen a hearse pull on a you all like
you're not going to take anything with you, but you're
going to leave something important in how you lived your
life while you're doing it.
Speaker 4 (15:08):
It is an incredible sense of not just belonging. And
I will say purpose because that purpose is one of
the areas that some people don't feel they have any purpose.
That's not a good feeling.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
But here's your purpose. The purpose, Your purpose is you.
If you don't know what to focus on, make being
a better version of yourself your single biggest project. Because
change does not come from the top, No change comes
from within. And when you become just just a little
bit happy, a little bit better, a little bit more positive,
(15:41):
you feel a little bit more hopeful you take a
little bit better care of yourself. It ripples through your family.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
I'm sure you make yourself better. That's it. That's it.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
And it literally like, do not be gas lit into
believing you have no power. You are powerful beyond your
wildest imaginations, as long as you stop giving your power
away to other people into the headlines you said, the
turn off the news, put down your phone.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
I also think you have to give yourself grace because
I think a lot of us don't work very hard
on ourselves because these are powerful words. They're inspiring, and
you get emboldened to go out there and do it,
and you make a five steps forward, and then you're
going to fall. And then sometimes we get hard on ourselves, like,
oh fuck, that's it. I give it a shot. I
(16:30):
can't have to give ourselves some grace.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Gave yourself the grace the moment you fall, because the
real skill isn't starting, it's that on when you have
a few days or weeks or months or a year
where you don't do what you want or need to do,
give yourself grace to then pick yourself back up.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
Exactly one of the things I said to why he
was playing hockey and he was had a concussion. I
went there obviously made him breakfast, unch and dinner and
how to chef also if I'm not just kid, but
I went there and then we had breakfast the next
day and you know, I said, Tim, you know life,
really we're going to fall down and he's a goaltender.
(17:13):
We're going to get knocked down. That's what life is.
It's not that simple. However, the mark of the man
truly is how fast you get up. And it's like you,
if you're defending the goal, you got to get up fast, dude.
And that's really the way we are. That that is
a part of grit. That is a part of saying
I can. That also says I can defend this goal.
(17:34):
I can do that. And once you fall and it
doesn't work, you're going to say I'm getting up again,
and I'm starting all over. And and that is so
true because the whole idea of falling down, being knocked
down doesn't mean your life is over. It means that
you have the capability of get up, man, get right up,
because you're going to you'll win at the game of life.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Well, you're actually designed to, like if they can't remember
what the research is. But when a baby is learning
to walk, they fall an average of seventeen times an hour,
and no baby, because they don't have language yet when
they fall, lays there and goes, well, that's it, I'm
screwed the money, Never walk again, glad. We develop language,
(18:17):
and we become self critical, and we develop a narrative
that keeps us from getting up. And that's not to
say there's something wrong if you're there. It's to say
that if your brain learned to do that, your brain
can actually learn how to tell you to get up again.
And it's designed to how many kids you have, three,
(18:38):
twenty six, five and twenty Okay.
Speaker 1 (18:40):
So growing up, when they're growing up, when you were
in when you were in your.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Bad and my peak dysfunction, right, yes, Like, first of all.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
How was that being a parent?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Horrible?
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Yeah? Horrible? And were they did they recognize that? Mom?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
You know they didn't really they didn't, Like we didn't
start the heavy drinking until they were in bed. We
at least had some boundaries.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
And then on the other.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Side of it, weren't yellers or that kind of stuff,
like I yelled at Chris, but not I didn't I
mean I would event I would like all parents snap occasionally,
but now and.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
Then with the on the other side of that, with
you being who you are right now and just this
vast not so much knowledge which I want to get
into for two seconds.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Times I'll learned the hard way by rocking everything up.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
That's right. But are you just so well read? Because
once you left this old life essentially and not that
they don't combine, but sort of moved into the next phase.
Were you just learning through reading and researching and studying
and having people on and having conversations, you know? Were
you a voracious sort of kind.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Of a voracious intellect. Yeah, I have a massive brain
and I didn't realize how much of an engine it was.
Like my superpower is to take the complex and distill
it down into a singular thing that's relevant to somebody
who is just trying to do a little better.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
You're so right.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
It's that's what I do.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
When I listen to you. You're you're so engaged.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
And because I've been listening for how is this relevant
to you?
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Are? Because there's a million podcasts out there. Look, you know,
theories are theories, and people say this, and there's there's
cognitive therapy, all of it. But there's something about you.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
I know what I'm doing very fucking engaged.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
Yes, it's your trustworthy and you are also listening authentically,
you know. I mean I think that for me feels
like you're superpowered. To me, it's like, wow, she's right there.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Thank you for reflecting that back to me. It's it's
about And You've used this word a number of times.
I'm an extremely intentional person and I'm very much driven
by mission and values. And if somebody is if somebody
somewhere around the world who has no time, by the way,
because they're working, they're caring for aging parents, they've got
(20:56):
little kids, they're running around, they got bills to pay.
So if you take a person like that who just
wants to do a little better and feel a little better,
and they're going to make time that they don't have
and they're going to spend it with me, you better
believe I'm going to do everything I possibly can to
make the time that they spend of value for them.
(21:17):
And so when I sit in the chair on my podcast,
I have that one person in mind and listen. I
know as much as the experts about the topic, because
I have read every single page of their book. I
have poured over the research. We spend probably thirty to
forty hours we do pre interviews. We then spend two
(21:37):
to three hours with every expert. We then spend another
fifty hours in post to make sure that if you're
going to spend an hour listening to the Mel Robins podcast,
you felt different, you felt better, you felt hopeful, and
it was valuable information either for you or that it
was a free resource to send to somebody else. And
(21:58):
the fact that we can all for that for free
because of our that's incredible.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
And so it's awesome.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
I know my role there. And back to that thing
about success. You know, I am blown away by the
success of the podcast and the just jaw dropping success
of the let Them theory because it gives me hope.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
Isn't it amazing? Because it's so it's just so simple.
It's a complexity, absolutely, but you know, and and it
came from a place of inspiration.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
Well, it came from a place of I've always been
frustrated with my people pleasing and the friction I cause
in relationships and the jealousy that I feel and the
ways that I've held myself back because I feel like
if somebody else has it, then I can't have it,
like a very limited point of view, and so in
(22:58):
trying to work through those limitations, that's why the book
is what it is. I'm the villain, like I'm work
like all those stories are real, they're they're the things
I'm not proud to admit that I was feeling or experiencing,
and this theory profoundly changed me from the inside out.
But what I love about all this is it's a sign,
(23:20):
despite the headlines, that people want more meaning, they want
more connection. We are seeking ways to simplify our lives
because we have so over optimized for productivity and profit
making that we've lost touch with what actually gives you
meaning as a human being. And so I feel hopeful
(23:42):
that people are turning towards messages like your podcast and
mine to find a sense of power in your foundation
work and nonprofit. That people are wanting and knowing something's
deeply wrong, and yet there are things I can do
to make it better, because there are, But I am
grateful that you know it's happened when I'm fifty seven,
(24:04):
Like I live on a mountain in Vermont, yeah, I don't.
I don't see like I am so clear that I
just want to spend more time with my husband, Chris.
I want to make sure my kids still talk to me,
you know, and we have a good.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Always like mom, Okay, I know I've read the book.
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
I don't give them advice never, No, that's the worst
thing to do. Like I literally my phrase as a
parent is always do you want me to listen?
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Or do you like to know what I think? And
they always I just want you to listen. And so
I know my role as a wife and a friend
and as a mom as a daughter as I know
what my role is there and it is not what
I do for work. If I were work mell in
my life, I would probably be divorced and my kids
(24:50):
would hate me.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Right Oh god, yes.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
Oh I know.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
All right. Last thing? What are your what are your
hang ups? You know what I mean? What is Mel's issue?
What are male's issues? Like? What do you work on?
I mean? Do you still have things? We all do?
But are there things about you that you just need
to shift and change? And or do you feel pretty complete? Not? Not?
They will always be complete, you know.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
I It's a great question. I I definitely am always
going to work on emotional reactivity. Like obviously, emotions or
chemical explosions good right, that happen, and if you don't
respond to them, they tend to rise and fall in
ninety seconds. But I've kind of gotten to a point
I've done enough emdr and psychedelic therapies and all that
(25:47):
kind of done psychedelic therapy we've actually done as a family.
We've had two therapists do guided MDMA therapy as a family.
And how was that life changing?
Speaker 1 (25:56):
It was life.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Changing, Absolutely, one of the most storder and Chris's eighty
six year old mother was with us. It is the
most life changing experience. But again we used the MAPS protocol,
we had two guides, therapists, a whole integration thing. You
know that last weeks afterwards, we're gonna do it again
(26:19):
this year before Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
And you've done a bunch of research on it.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Oh, absolutely absolutely, And so I you know, for me,
I think that it's just not allowing stupid shit to
hijack my emotions. And what I've come to learn is
that I'm self aware enough and I'm committed enough to
being peaceful and to holding space of acceptance and compassion
(26:46):
for myself and others that if I am a real bitch,
I typically need a sandwich or a nap, Like there's
like you know, there's the system is running on empty
because I've really changed like the person that I was
at fifty four when I first started creating this theory
(27:08):
and building the case for it, I mean, completely different
human being three years later because of let them as
a boundary between you and other people in the world.
It's a big one, and it helps you protect yourself,
and it helps you understand what's worth holding space up
here and what's worth allowing you to impact here. And
then let me part is where you do all the
(27:29):
work you talk about, Goldie, which is you get to
choose like this is how you take responsibility for your life,
and responsibility if you look at that word, it's just
the ability to respond, to respond to what's happening around you,
to respond to other people's moods and expectations and opinions,
and to choose consciously and intentionally to use your word.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Again, Yes, it's an interesting, longer discussion, but we're really
being challenged on.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
That level right now.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
Yes, we are it's very very people are inflamed. It's
hard for them to grapple with their high level emotions
around the polarity about what's really going on. Perception people
have both different it all. There's a reason for it.
But I've never seen anything like this in my life,
and it is really debilitating. It's breaking people up, it's
(28:22):
losing friends. Yeah, there's a lot of things that are
basically happening because we can't let them.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
It's so true. You know, you guys should have on
Doctor Todd Rose. He's one of the most important guests
that I've had on the podcast Doctor Todd Rose. Todd
he was a professor at the Harvard Graduate School of
Education and then left to start a non partisan think ting.
(28:50):
He has the world's largest private data set of what
people believe, and what he does in his research is
he'll give you a list of I'll give you an
example the research. She'll give you sixty criteria and he
will ask you to go into a room privately and say, okay,
you two, I want you to rank what you privately
believes living a successful life means, and you have to
(29:13):
rank them in order. So it's not like it's this
or that rank them one to sixty, so you rank
them all. He's done this with I don't know, tens
of thousands of people, all different backgrounds, politically, spirituality, age, everything.
Do you know when you rank it privately. Of the
top ten things that people privately say this means a
successful life, eight are exactly the same. And then number
(29:36):
one criteria that people privately say means a successful life
is I have spent my life doing something that's meaningful
that makes a difference from other people. Now, when you
then ask each of you to take the same sixty
and go, okay, how do you think other people would
(29:57):
rank this and define success? Number one is money, status,
like all of it, none of which hits in the
top ten for most people out And his work is
all about the fact that we are living in this
collective illusion where the loudest voices, so ten eighty to
ninety percent of the content you see online is from
(30:18):
ten percent of the accounts that the loudest and most
extreme voices are now dominating the public discourse. And the
problem is the eighty to ninety percent of us are
self silencing. And when you self silence, your self silencing
because you actually believe that a majority of people agree
(30:40):
with this worship that you see happening in the news,
when the truth is and he has the research to
prove it, eighty to ninety percent of people want the
same things. Yeah, we may disagree on policy, but I
remember a time a decade ago where people actually worked together.
But something has happened in in terms of the way
(31:01):
that the media has been attacked and social media has
been hijacked and bots have come in. One out of
every four interactions you have online on social media is
with a bot, not a human being, and people don't
know this. Therefore we self silence, and there's a lot
of hope because the hope comes from and he's got
(31:21):
a lot of historical examples in the data. The second
that people start going this doesn't make sense, this doesn't
feel right, you start actually finding the courage to be authentic,
the whole illusion shatters. Just like the emperor with no clothes.
Nobody wants to say anything because it's the emperor, and
you know the emperor is cantankerous and mentally ill and
(31:44):
narcissistic and out for profit and power and so insecure.
But the second somebody goes this just you're naked, the
whole thing falls apart. And so I do feel very
hopeful because of the historical examples. And it's not going
to happen from top, it happens from within it. We
(32:06):
all have a role to exactly. So let them say
what they're going to say and focus on the Let
me part. Let me show up in my life in
a way where I feel authentic, where I am expressing
myself and my beliefs, where I am living in a
way where I'm aligned with my values and my sense
of character. And if I do that, trust you give
(32:28):
other people permission. I know that it's.
Speaker 4 (32:30):
Really it is as to speak. Engagement did so, well,
how do you not lose yourself? You know, after all
the world, the work that you've done, and the time
you put in and everything that's happened with you. And
I said, well, if you know yourself, you won't lose yourself. Yes,
And I think the idea of how can we learn
(32:51):
more and be open and fair to ourselves as to
who we are and how we want to become one
that we have? Oh, I like myself, I have integrity,
you like being you? And we can work at that.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yes we can. It's just beautiful. I think that's why
I let them is so powerful because it teaches you
how to stop giving so much time and energy and
power to other people. Well, it teaches you to stop
looking out there for the actual validation that you need,
which needs to come from yourself exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
And one other's little thing that I had, which is
when I started the program, I was teaching brain science
because why we asked them to learn when they don't
know what they have, what tool they have. So it
was a way out there idea. It was like crazy
disturbance whatever. And people said to me, you will never
ever teach the brain and you will not get meditation
(33:47):
in the classroom. And my answer, watch.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Me, you did it.
Speaker 4 (33:54):
My point is is like I knew what what I
could do. I knew the research, I knew the things.
So anybody can say whatever they want, yes, let them
let them.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Right there, beautiful, And mom, what I took from all
of this is we're doing M D M A as
a family.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
You have to yes, now, it is the most extraordinary experience,
right but because you know what I like about it. Now,
what I like about it, you guys, is that it
suspends the amigdala. So you can, like you literally set
the intention and you revisit things in your life. But
what I love about it is that this you know,
(34:36):
you have your eyemask on, the music's the guy. The
second you do this, you're out of it. Like if
you have to go to the bathroom, you feel it
and then you're like, oh my god, where the I
gotta go to the bathroom and get back in it.
And so you don't like, I have no interest in
doing a drug like ayahuasca where I'm gonna puke and
purge and all the shout these strangers. So I can learn,
I can rely on myself. Yeah, I the things that
(35:01):
have been studied in clinical settings and that have this extraordin.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
What about psilocybin like Johns Hopkins are doing it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (35:09):
Absolutely, Like I haven't done the psilocybin because it goes
it can go a little dark. I prefer the things
that stay a little bit more in the.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
Do you know scientifically chemically what's happening in the brain?
With the yes? Can you just quickly yes? So interesting?
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Well, actually you know what I should do. I'm going
to send you instead the expert the two experts you
should have on the show that can actually explain what's
happening in it because it affects, Like what's so incredible
is that you know, if you actually you should have
doctor Lisa miller On from Columbia. She studies the noscience
(35:44):
of spirituality amazing well, so she can explain all this.
But if they're looking at the brain of somebody having
a spiritual experience, it looks exactly the same, whether it
is somebody chanting in tongues, somebody in deep meditation, somebody
having an orgasm, somebody in awe with nature, or somebody
(36:06):
having a deeply psychological or psychedelic because there is a
part of the brain that comes online where you are
disassociated from self and you are able to be in
the present moment without like managing your physical space. Like
it like, there's a part of the brain that locates
(36:26):
you in a physical space. Yes, and there's something about
these spiritual and psychedelic and other experiences that the brain
is designed to do. But it also removes you from
the physicality of the space and connects you with more
of the quantum field and that energetic aspect of the experience.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Beautiful, Yes, this is incredible. Thank you for taking the
time
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Oliver Hudson
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