Meena Harris

We finally have an only child on the show! Kate and Oliver sit down with Meena Harris, author and Founder of Phenomenal Media. She discusses growing up in a family of strong women, the importance of healthy debate, only children stereotypes, and much more.
Executive Producers: Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson

Produced by Allison Bresnick

Edited by Josh Windisch

Music by Mark Hudson

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This episode is sponsored by:

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and
what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling Railvalry. No,

(00:22):
no sibling raval You don't do that with your mouthing vely.
That's good. Hi, y'all. Okay, how's your how's your week?

(00:44):
It's been a great week. Here's the here's the problem.
I got a new e bike and I was cruising.
I was like eight hundred feet up in the mountains,
loving my life, trying to get that I knew timing
to get down to do some podcasting to be with you.
The battery died, and so now I'm forced to sort
of get down and this mountain without my battery. I

(01:06):
was on sunset. Cars were honking at me. I really
was going down Mandivo Canyon trying to figure it out.
I've got Alice and our producer who's basically yelling at
you on the street. Yeah, I'm confused because I had
to go up into the mountains. I was up in
the mountains to get to get back to where I
wanted to go to was more mileage and more uphill

(01:28):
and I said, I can't do it. The bike weighs
fifty pounds a battery operated bike. So now I had
to come down. Oh no, So that's that's my day.
And people were honking at you on sunset, Yeah, I was.
I was scared for my light. Oh my god, Sunset.
I don't know. I don't know why people bike on sunset?

(01:48):
Why were you? Why were you biking? Because there's a
part of Sunset where there is no sidewalky thing and
it was scary. Ship my pants a little bit. It
was really don't do that again ever, I know. Anyway, Well,
I'm sorry to hear that. I'm sorry to hear that.
I love I love biking those I love It's so liberating,

(02:09):
it's just so I love being on a bike. It's
the best. So, Ollie, this was our first only child,
which is kind of crazy. It's kind of crazy. I
think the amount of shows that we've done that this
is the first first child. It's interesting. Although her particular story,
it's Mina Harris. She is Kamala Harris's niece and and

(02:33):
I think a lot of people obviously throughout the campaign
for the Biden Harris campaign got to know the family
a very interesting dynamic because her mother had Mina very
young and so they were all really raised together. So
it was a little different than like a typical only
child scenario because her mother had her at what seventeen

(02:56):
and then went through like Stanford, Yeah, you know, college education.
Grandma was Grandma was raising. I mean, it's pretty amina
while mom was Stanford and becoming just amazing and just
an accomplished woman. A very female household with incredible, strong,

(03:23):
highly educated women. I love when she talked about how
at the table, around the table when they were eating,
that they never treated her like a kid, like they
always engaged her even when she was younger in the
debate with a real voice, you know, and she talked
about how that really informs who she is and what

(03:44):
she became. And I love that. I sort of, I mean,
we don't do that. We don't do a lot of
debating in our family. But I do believe in talking
to your kids like humans and not and not sort
of being baby ish. We should do debates with the
kids like we should have like actual debates. Yeah, we

(04:05):
should have family dinner, but it has to be around there,
like subject matter that they care about, like video games
like is it good or is it bad? Right? And
one on one side they can pick it out of
a hat and we'll give them like you like, we
can do Saturday dinner. Right, We're doing a Sunday night
dinner or whatever. I feel like if you gave that's
a really fun idea. It is debate night, debate night,

(04:29):
and like there's a couple of different things, you know,
like one set like the first Saturday of every month, right,
and they get over dressed, and then the family gets
to choose who won the Yeah, and then then we
do a town hall after that. All we just get

(04:55):
all of our friends and like just have a dinner
old thing and you know, and they've got a I
love a town hall and then we're asking them questions.
Oh my god, that's so fun. All right, Well, Mina
Harris are Our episode with Mina Harris has just inspired

(05:15):
for us. But really, I I really, I really loved
I really loved this episode because it also shows again
another immigrant, beautiful immigrant story, and how that inform not
only you know, her aunt and her mom, but herself.
All right, please everybody enjoy Mina Harris. I'm so excited

(05:44):
about this. I'm obsessed with talking about siblings and being
an only child. So why that is? You know, you're
our first only child. I've never had an only child.
I have so many questions about this. I'm so honored.
I'm also like nervous, I have to really, you know,

(06:05):
but I'm so excited. I'm like, this is one of
my top favorite things to talk about, is being only child,
in part because there's so many instances in which my
asshole friends are like, you're such an only child, Like, oh,
I'm not, And here's why. Why why are you so
have a lot of only child besties? Oh? Really? Okay,

(06:27):
So then you're yeah, I'm very well versed, But why
do you love talking about it? Like? Why does it? Okay?
I think part of it is a couple of things.
So one, you know, growing up as an only child
is a is a unique thing. I suppose I actually
I should look into the like statistics around that. I'm
sure there's many more only children now, like given the

(06:48):
economy and other things like that than there there may
have been in the eighties when I was born, but
so so there's that unique experience on its own. But
then I also grew up in a very unique way
in a very unique family, which was I was like
a super only child. I had a very young teenage mom.

(07:08):
She had me when she was seventeen, and it was me,
my mom, my grandma, and my aunt. That was my
tiny little family for my you know, all of my
most formative years. And I and my aunt at that
time didn't have any children, and it didn't for many,
many many years. My grandmother, you know, was was on
her own at that point. So I had like not

(07:30):
only this super female centric, like amazing you know, lens
into you know, just a woman run world. Like the
concept of men being in charge was completely foreign to
me until I entered the real world. All of her
feels the same way. Yah, even though he's brothers. Yeah,
because you you grew up with all women too. We

(07:55):
just Mom and I are just you know, you just married.
She's not wrong. I mean when mom was we were divorced,
I mean I was with you and Mom, I mean
I was. It was very female driven household with whole women. Yeah. Yeah,
and so you know, as you know, apparently like that's
pretty unique. And then I had just a lot of

(08:18):
focus on me because I was the only kid and
the only grandkid. And the only and you know, we
have a pretty small and at that time, you know,
especially a very small family. My grandmother, you know, immigrated
here and she created her own second family and community,
but my core sort of nuclear family was just the
three of us, and you know, the all of the

(08:40):
attention was on me, and you know, probably good ways
and bad that I'm now on fact as an adult
sometimes how much older is your aunt from your mom? Okay,
so that's okay. So that's the third part of this,
which is on top of all of that, I had
this unique insight into their sibling relationship, which was all
very unique. Right, you have these two girls growing up

(09:03):
and again very strong, female driven led household. They are
two and a half years apart, so almost three they
I think there's actually who I think is it the
Wijiski sisters. There's an article about them. I think. I'm
sure you've seen all this because you all keep up
with stuff. But there's a whole nother conversation around, just
like families of super you know, super successful siblings and

(09:27):
somehow like they're all successful and again this could this
could be a whole other conversation, but I'm so fascinated
by You know, we're all different. People take different directions.
Some families, you know, I think like they would just
skis there. They're super successful. Sometimes you know, somebody takes
their time, or you have people whole concept of the
black sheep. Like, there's lots of different I mean, this
is your hitting on everything we love talking about on

(09:50):
the podcast, because you know, family dynamics are well, first
of all, they inform the rest of your life and
the way you choose to harry whatever your family of
origin has sort of built around you as like your foundation.
However you harry that becomes everything that like catapults you

(10:12):
into the world in a positive way or does the
opposite can be incredibly destructive and right or in between,
and it's just like confusing and you figure it out.
But so I now so based on that, and this
is sort of like recent things I've thought about. One,
I love that there's this parallel between me and my
grandmother of like raising our two girls. Nick really wants

(10:36):
three kids, and first of all, no fucking way. Second
of all, like I like having two daughters. It's so
fun and like, you know, the parallels there. But also,
and I've actually talked to other new Ish moms that
were only children, and we're like it's like a little experiment,
like I get to like study like how siblings interact
and you know, not to sound also like a tiger mom,

(10:56):
but I'm like, how do I make you best friends?
Like how do I you know, again, like we only
had I should stay out of it, and I do
that too. I'm like, y'all need to figure it out.
If you're arguing, like you know, you can go be
each other. They're so close in age too, so you're
gonna get a lot of that, you know exactly, and
they're so different, They're so different in terms of personality.
So anyway, it's all to say that, like I already

(11:19):
have you know, interesting perspectives and whatever. Experience is like
kind of a super only child, as I've called it,
And then I've had I think, you know, because of
that an interest in sibling relationships because I never had it,
and now that I have my own two kids, I'm
even more sort of fascinated by it all because I
just it's so foreign. Did you ever want a sibling?
I mean, were you ever as a kid? Were you

(11:39):
ever like, man, I wish I had someone else? Not
really I mean now I think about that, like I
you know, on the one hand, there's like nothing, you know,
most a lot that I would not change, you know,
and but it now seeing my kids together especially, I'm like, oh,
that would have been fun or you know, just the

(12:01):
idea we had a feeling of like big family gatherings
because my grandmother had such an incredible vibrant community and
second family. But you know, sometimes I'm like, I'll hear
them talking to each other about me, and I'm like, hey,
I can hear you. What do you guys talking to
me about? Like just being able to like talk about
your parents with your sibling or work working through you know,
it's one parent dynamics with a friend. What's really interesting?

(12:24):
You know, I think like when I look at Ryder,
my son's eighteen, his sister's three. Oh wow, yeah, your
mom was seventeen. That relationship is almost like a sibling
relationship and can be you know, if not. You know,
it sounds like your mom was incredibly strong and had

(12:46):
a large capacity to understand probably how to be a
good parent even though she was so young. Right, do
you have a real mother daughter relationship or is there
a friendship that has built because of that age. You know,
it's interesting one like this would be probably fun to
talk about in therapy. I also hope my mom writes
a book one day. It would be fun to hear

(13:08):
what she would say. So, without speaking for her, I
would say, your response about being like a real mother
figure and being strict and being clear about boundaries. My
interpretation was that that was very much her approach to
being a parent, and what I think is super interesting.
And you know, again like I mean, we've been also busy.

(13:30):
It would be fun to like sit down and talk
to my mom about this at some point beyond some
of the sort of like you know, surface level conversations
we've had. And I'm sure for her to your point,
like you know, she was seventeen, I'm sure there's a
lot looking back on that that she herself has maybe
not even unpacked yet, right, But one of the things
that I'm curious about is, like, was she as a

(13:51):
seventeen year old mom like Okay, I need to do this,
and I'm curious about you, Like, was that your perspective
of like, Okay, I'm young and I need to be
clear that I'm the So there's no confusion in a
way that you maybe did it more than like an
older mom would do because you were so you know,
worried or whatever. It had this sort of like the
idea of how you needed to be as a young mom.

(14:13):
I'm curious about that, But it's funny because what you
said is exactly how to described her as a you
know mom to me as a young child. Was she
was strict, she was you know, I I definitely had
stricter rules than most of my peers. You know, there's
this saying in particular like the black community, like I'm
not want of your little friends. I'm not your buddy,

(14:34):
I'm your mother, right, Like she was clear about that.
At the same time, I think what again was interesting
not only for our mother daughter relationship, but also just
in context of my family and that you know, sort
of unique household I lived in is that I had
a front row seat to like every stage of their lives,
which is extraordinary to think back on, and that I

(14:55):
sit with a lot sort of every time I have
a big life moment. You know, when I went to
law school, I just I was like just every day
my mind was blown, Like, how in the world did
she do this with a four year old, you know,
when I had my own kids again, like figuring out
how to do the pancakes and everything else. It's like,
how in the world did she do all of that?

(15:16):
But also just in terms of this sort of inspiration
and what I sort of had a furrow seat too,
was you know, her college graduation, her law school graduation
and same for my aunt, right, and and realizing how
special that is that you get to like see your parents'
life or your family's stages of life through every critical

(15:37):
moment is something that, of course most people don't get
and is very pretty cool. And how come your mom
did did she not just not want to have other kids?
Or was she just sort of like want and done?
Thank you? Yeah? You know, okay, I'll let her. I
don't want to speak for her. I'll say that if
I were her and I had a kid at seventeen
and I did all the shit that she did and
put it in no way, I'm done. I'm done. So

(16:02):
And you know, that's another thing that I'm kind of
interested in and talked about, which is that my parents now,
in contrast, it's like they're empty nesters and they're kind
of this like young youngish are they still together. No, no,
this is my mom remarried. Okay, yeah, sorry, yeah, where
is your father? I don't know, I don't know. Do

(16:23):
you know? So? But you don't know. We have so
much in commage, generational thing tears, the lovely aspects of
all that. But yeah, you know my parents, she married
my I call him my dad. I called my parents,
you know, together, my parents. They got married when I

(16:46):
was gosh, fourteen, I was just about to go to
high school. Oh my god, there's so much fun stuff
to think about back that, Like I was such an asshole.
He's the most amazing person ever, like you know, speaking
of strong female domin like, you know, everybody's like, how
do you guys deal with that family? It's like, yeah,
takes takes a special kind of person, you know. Anyway,

(17:07):
he's amazing. I was like a little shit for part
of that time, in part because like it was just
the two, it was just me and my mom for
so long. You know, they got married when I was
just going into high school. And fast forward, it's just
interesting to me where you know, they're they've both been lawyers,
and you know, especially when they were like these young

(17:28):
uh you know, on the forty under forty lists and
things like that. For you know, especially when we were
here in the Bay Area, there are so many young
players of color that looked up to them and were like,
I want I want to be you, I want you
to mentor me. And I used to like joke that
the big secret is having a kid when you're seventeen
part of it, right, Like, obviously they're both very smart
and accomplishment of done extraordinary things. But you know, on

(17:50):
the one hand, I think it was obviously very hard,
and my mom sacrificed a lot. You know, there was
a lot that you know, shouldn't go unnoticed in terms
of what she what she did, and the life that
she created for us and how challenging that was. At
the same time, it like she did all the work
up front in terms of like wind kids stuff, so
that when she was like in her thirties, I was

(18:11):
off to college. Right, So she and my dad like
had this amazing kind of like gess like right starting
and their like their career is in their thirties, right. Jealous,
It's incredible I got to wait in another eighteen years. Yeah, exactly,
say I'm like I'm out on my eighteen year plan
of like moving back to New York. So Oliver, Yeah,

(18:36):
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(18:59):
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(19:19):
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(19:41):
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(20:02):
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(20:24):
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com slash sibling again, that's trifuture dot com slash sibling.
So your mom put herself through Stanford Law. Yes, how
old was she when she went into to Stanford She
would have been like eighteen or nine, So you were

(20:46):
like a year old when she went to college to study.
I was, yes, college, I was a year She had
me her senior like second semester, gosh, first semester after it,
so she got pregnant senior year I was born in
October that I think would have been her first semester
at college. I'm just gonna like assume that your grandma

(21:09):
had a huge, huge you absolutely, yeah. My grandmother was
a second mother to me and a very special important person.
Actually there's a lot of interesting stuff just around parenting
as well looking, and I wish she were here today
for me to you know, talk about this stuff with
her too. But you know, she was also a pretty
young mom, right, she was in her twenties, and she

(21:32):
was an immigrant. She was creating a new life for
them in a community and you know, her own family here.
And I sometimes joked that like I was her little experiment,
like she like she did the two she got, you know,
made it through, raised these incredible daughters, you know, under
somewhat you know, challenging circumstances. And then I came along
and she's like, oh now I can, like really, you

(21:54):
know again, make all the pancakes and explain it for
people who don't know what some of the challenging circumstances
were for Grandma. Oh gosh, well, you know, she came
here by herself, which as a eighteen year old you
know student coming from India to get her PhD, which

(22:17):
obviously you know, there's privilege there and being able to
get an education and access to that went to UC Berkeley.
But you know, she was a little, tiny woman of
color in a male dominated industry and the sciences, and
you know, I think along with that, for anyone in
that position comes along lots of different challenges including sexism

(22:39):
and racism and all the you know other much more
you know, bigger issues that we were dealing with as
a country during the civil rights movement at that time.
And she's so extraordinary for so many different reasons, but
one in particular related to that period of her life
is that, you know, she had a choice. She she
could have decided to to sort of a similate and

(23:00):
not you know, see herself as an immigrant in that fight,
and largely because of the family we come from in India,
which very much live lived by the same values of
equity and justice and you know, all the things that
I think are so core tos sort of who we
are and who I am. She said, you know, this

(23:21):
is this is my fight too, and you know, jumped
right in. That's where she met my grandfather. That's very
much obviously the you know, community and world in which
my mom and aunt were raised, and that informed a
lot of you know again my upbringing and values that
they brought into our family. But you know, again along
with that came many challenges of I mean, depending on

(23:43):
how you want to look at it, right, she she
and my grandfather divorced fairly early in Uh. I guess
my mom was like too, I think, and my aunt
was a little bit older. But you know, she was
a student and trying to you know, make a life,
you know, modest life for her, for her and her
two girls at a really critical moment you know, in

(24:06):
our society. And you know, again didn't take the on
the one hand, just by virtue of that experience. Nothing
about that was easy. But she also could have probably
taken a bit of an easier path and chose not
to because you know, she obviously was so committed to
racial equity and and you know, being a part of
the Civil Wars. Moom was this in San Francisco, Uh, Berkeley? Yeah, she, Uh,

(24:30):
and I I grew up really between Oakland and Berkeley,
and uh yeah, just to have you know, that informed
so much of I'm sure again, I I don't know Uh,
for sure, you know, you have to ask my mom
and aunt, but obviously informed her her parenting and decisions
as a parent. And it's just I can make my

(24:50):
own guesses. But it's sort of like fun to think
about how she then came into her identity as a grandmother, right,
also a young grandma, like she was in her forties, right, Yeah,
which is wild too because like people have you know,
I'm like, I'm almost forty, Like people have kids in
their forties. And she was a grandma and you know,
I think had a whole you know, was able to

(25:13):
build on her experience as a mom and think about
you know, oh, it sounds like you have a very
unique only child experience because a lot of times, you know,
at least I mean, this is sort of the stereotype
that I know from my friends, is that their whole
life revolved around them. Yeah, it's all about you, it's
all about you. It's about you. But you had a

(25:34):
mom who needed it to be about her at times
because she needed to go build her life and her career,
and you were with grandma, so you kind of had
a I would say, probably a very different type of you.
Probably didn't feel smothered. That's right. Yeah, I think it's
interesting now I look back on how much in terms

(25:55):
of my own path, how much frankly was sort of
like my own pressure on myself rather than the exactly
I think to their credit, they were so I mean,
yes I was. I felt so loved and adored and
it wasn't sort of like in a tiger mom way, right,
I mean there were expectations, yes, of of excellence, academic excellence.

(26:17):
You know, the importance of education was emphasized. You know,
we came from a you know, humble beginnings, but education
was was was key and you know, having purpose, right,
that was the overarching you know message, right, like, uh,
come into the world with purpose and a feeling of

(26:38):
responsibility to do good for your community whatever that looks like.
But I was encouraged to you know, do art camp
to like never was it you know, suggested like, oh,
you have to become a lawyer like your mom and
not By the way, my grandmother was a scientist, and
there's obviously a lot of she was a research researcher, right, yeah, exactly,
And there's a lot of and I'm interested in this

(26:59):
now as well, just you know, kind of stereotypes around
immigrant parents, you know, obviously pressuring their kids because they
want them to have a good life. But it's like,
you know, what was that the SNL episode where it's
like you have a choice of becoming a doctor or
a doctor, there's nothing, there's like no other right option.
But to my grandmother's credit, she she never pushed that
on them. Right, they clearly felt freedom. I think a

(27:21):
lot of was are informed by the movement too, right,
Like they were surrounded by activists and public you know,
leaders and public officials and lawyers like those were the heroes.
But anyway, yeah, it's it's it was never to your point,
like my mom was trying to just like make it work.
Same for my grandmother. Did you find that you were

(27:42):
spending a lot of time alone with yourself? Yes, so
I think that one of the characteristics or you know
that came out of that is that I'm very independent
I and these are people often talk about that with
only well, I don't know, maybe for only children. The
stereotype is like, oh, you're okay being alone or spending
time alone or knowing how to like play by yourself.

(28:03):
That for sure is me. But there's also an aspect
of it that I think contributed to independence and both
like I enjoy solitude for sure. Uh, but also you know,
you got to figure it out. I mean I think
that's that was the message not only that my family
was living through. It was like things are hard and
fucking figure it out, right, and that was the message

(28:25):
to be too. How did how did that? How did
that sort of upbringing manifest in your relationships? You know,
even with your husband? You know, how does that work
as far as sort of who he and who he
knows you to be? You know, other things about yourself
where you're like, Okay, I gotta work on this because
yes I am I am Yeah, I am an only
child and this is the way I know how to

(28:45):
do things. But you know, did that Yeah? You know
there's an interesting thing like going around TikTok and Twitter,
which is like fierce independence and like thinking that you
don't need people as a trauma response. I know there's
also a joke to like every fucking thing is a
trauma respon We've all Yeah, but I learned about fierce
independence and therapy, yeah, right, Like these are fun therapy

(29:08):
conversations and I I for sure relate to that I think,
and so why asked about my relationship? I you know,
And again I don't know that these are things I'm
probably unpacked and therapy fun to talk about here, but
I don't know how much of that relates to like
having a single mom or having an absent dad, right,

(29:28):
which is like, I don't need you, like I I
you know my mom did it? You know? We're good.
I'm good. I don't I don't need anybody. Sounds like
someone I know. I'm guessing that that's probably one of
the biggest fights Danny and I ever got into. Is
I was like, He's like, you don't need me. I'm like,
I don't, literally no, I don't need you. I love you,

(29:52):
I amuse you, but I don't need you. Right, yeah,
you did? No? I mean, I very much identify with that.
Do you know the Five Languages of Love? That book?
I think I've heard of it, but I don't know
the like what the five languages are. It's physical physical touch, Yeah,

(30:13):
acts of service, acts of service, words about, words of affirmation, gets,
and then one more quality time. And it's really interesting
because you we all do fall into some sort of
a category. You know what I mean that I have
quality time followed by words off, I'm physical touch for sure.

(30:34):
You can tell me all the great things. I'm like,
I don't care, just like rub my back, rub me,
touch me, love me physically. You know. It's funny. Nick
and I have this like inside joking because I again
sorry to keep talking about TikTok, I'm so annoying, But
there was like there's some funny thing that's like, my
love language is physical touch, tap my asss be this

(30:55):
thing where I'm like my love languages and so he's like, oh,
gotta get your love language and gotta get your love
like Nick. So he's a Capricorn, and I very much
think that he fits the profile of the capricorn. His
is access service for and probably actum im like I
do not want anyone who has that. Oh sorry no,

(31:17):
but hit his are that? Okay? His our access service
to the to the significant other? Right he wants you expression? Yes, sorry,
not that he's if he likes to do things, but
is that what you need? I you know, I like
all of it. I would say, I seriously do think
physical touch is one for me. You know, it's funny.

(31:41):
I think that for him, the return like he words
of affirmation for sure is one for him. And it's
something to this conversation that I think, like in our
relationship and in my in my leadership style and work,
like I've tried to get better about positive reinforcement and
affirmation in part. And again this is like me riffing here.

(32:02):
I'm not a whatever therapist, but I almost wonder with
my family, like there were such expressions of constant love
through physical touch, through language, through access service, all of it,
like you talked about, is that yes, very much like
you know you are so loved in every way. But

(32:23):
you know, I feel like maybe because there was just
this baseline expectation of like excellence, like exceeding excellence, I
do wonder if if it's just expected, right, Like you
don't get a cookie forgetting an a you don't you
don't get I never had any sort of you know,
you get money for getting good grades or you get rewarded.
It's like, no, that's what's expected. And if you don't

(32:45):
do that, then you know you you whatever, you're failing. Yeah, right,
like you just pass, I don't care, just get credit
and then we'll go out, we'll go sing. It's healthy,
Like I think there's a lot of it is I think,
you know there there is a sophistication to that that

(33:06):
I really appreciate, like and maybe that's because I didn't
have that, Like they cared about us being our excellence being,
but they knew who we were in the world, how
we were in the world, like how hard we worked
at so that you know that people good people. And
again that of course I was emphasized. For me, it

(33:29):
was more you know again, it was just all an expectation.
You're ethical, you're honest, you're you work hard, and I
think this idea of like, you know again, it's not
like we said, you know, to an extreme. I love you.
I love you so much. I'm so proud of you.
Like my aunt's think since I was a baby, this
is like I guess maybe embarrassing to even say an
adult was like, who's my favorite girl? Who's my favorite girl?

(33:49):
And again I was like the only you know against
the who else is there? Yeah? Yeah right, but like
it's no else obviously ever wanted. But were you were
you rebellious at all? Did you do bad shit? And
you know what I mean? You did? I did okay, good, good,
So you got to have that part of your wa Wait,

(34:10):
I have a quest, well, and we'll get to that
in a second. I want, did you have imaginary friends? No?
But my my youngest daughter dot the older one didn't
and the younger one did. And I'm so fascinated by it.
I mean, I was actually to ask you something, which
is like I as a parent now and thinking about
this from such a different lens. In some of it's

(34:33):
my own creative journey. Some of it I think is
just frankly like where we are as a society and
asking good important questions about like the evils of capitalism
and over you know, uh, emphasizing productivity and you know
that being the basis far worth like all this stuff,
and in particular on the creative piece, I see that

(34:55):
my younger daughter is like a performer. There's no question
in my mind. Like she. I can give you lots
of examples. She is a performer. She loves to make
people laugh, she loves to sing and dance. She talks
about like I'm on stage and you know, you give
her a microphone, Oh my god. And I was like
that also. However, I pursued a very traditional path in

(35:17):
part because I think the role models I had were lawyers,
and so I went to law school, and I was
committed to, you know, seeing change in the world and
seeing through my purpose through the law. Right I now
am a thankfully former lawyer and recovering lawyer, and I'm
sort of new ish to my creative to you know,
this new chapter of being a true creative, which I
think is who I truly am. But I look back

(35:38):
and I wonder about, like kids that grow up in
Hollywood or in families like that, or that are just
immersed in creativity, how that informs a different, you know,
different outcomes. And I'm now thinking about that with the
younger one and you know, the older one. You know,
you know what, you should get a book. Sir Ken
Robinson he passed away. He passed away a couple of

(36:01):
years ago. Unfortunately, really really lovely man. You can watch
this Ted talk too. You should watch his whole thing
is about how the institution, our educational system has been
kind of formed around something that really no longer exists,
like that that that we should be we should actually
be incorporating more of the creative brain into how well,

(36:24):
there's no emphasis on it, there's no structure for this
part of our brain, which is which is really the
way the world is moving, and how we can build
an educational system more around the creative brain. I want
to get into all like the incredible things that you're doing. Okay,
but I have this question has been on my mind.
Where are you with sort of male energy, meaning like

(36:46):
in your family? You when you were a kid, you
grew up with all of these beautiful strong women. Okay, daughter, yes,
but you know where are you at with sort of
that male figure in your life growing up? Did you
need it? Did you crave it? Did you care about it?
Did it affect you in any way? Do you think
it's important to have someone like that in your life

(37:07):
to raise you or to sort of give you that
male perspective? Ooh, that's a big question. Let me try
to figure out how to answer this. So even though
you did have your dad, your stepdad dad, he was
there at fourteen, but just generally, I guess as a
starting point, no, I do not think that there. I

(37:28):
do not have a like gendered perspective on raising kids.
And I do not think that you know, you need
to like get that from a man that is through
a dad figure. Right. However, I do think that we
still live in a patriarchal society and girls and women

(37:53):
have to navigate that and have to deal with sexism
and racism and men. Sorry to take this turn, but
I mean this is how I view it men. You know, again,
there's lots of I'm going to like what I think
about this as like problem solving and how to equip
like what is the purpose of parenting? And right, like

(38:15):
you just ask like do you need it? And I
think what girls and women meet and boys like what
we need is the tools and you know, the problem
solving language whatever to navigate a patriarchal society whatever that means, right,
And you don't you don't need to get that through
a parent. I think we need to be doing it
in schools. I think we need to be doing it

(38:36):
through kids books like like the ones that I'm writing,
you know. But I think it's more about like the
structural you know, systems and you know, harms that we
all have to navigate that are dictated by a you know,
white male dominated world, which is still the world we

(38:57):
live in, and that we all need the tools to
dismantle that and unpack that and you know, know, how
to navigate when or harmed by it. How deep misogyny
can be at times is so unrecognized. Still, I kind
of come from a place because I'm not dissimilar in
terms of like I grew up with a very powerful
mother who was like, you know, men will let you down, Okay,

(39:22):
do what you need to do. Go out in the world,
make your own way. Don't ever rely on a man
for money. Do it yourself. In my mind it was like,
I am independent, I am fiercely independent. I can do
it myself. I don't need any man. I don't need them. Look,
I just wanted to know if dads were important. But

(39:43):
I think it is. Oh, I keep going. I think
the role, the important role is just to me, honestly,
is being a really good parent. Yeah right, No, I know,
but I think like that that question is always framed
in the context of family and romantic probably cis gender
heterosexual romantic relationships, I imagine, because that is how again,

(40:07):
we as a society have built power around that. Right,
women had to get married and be with men, so
that because that men, right, Yeah, like that was just
but and so it's interesting I think I happen to
be a cis gender heterosexual woman and in that context,
you know, there's a whole thing around, like you know,

(40:27):
to your question, like you know, do I have daddy issue?
Like the whole concepts like daddy issues are fiercely independent,
like maybe probably, I don't know, like you know, however
you diagnose that. But I now, as a parent, think
about it in a sense of, you know, if I
am to frame it as a romantic thing, like oh,
do you need a good dad to like date men?

(40:49):
That's kind of like house is normally to be in
good relationship. It's sort of house normally framed. Right. Again,
it's a very one lens of that I'm now I
think about it like I don't know if my daughters
are going to date men. First of all, I don't
know if they're going to identify as female when they're
you know, at whatever point in their life. Like there's
just so to me. I think about it again, more
so in the context of society and systems, which are

(41:12):
a good dad maybe that yes, that's probably helpful, or yes,
good parent to your point, also, some of the most
important white men in my life have been bosses, people
that I've encountered in the workplace. Right, so I do
look at it more less about like family and certainly
less about like romantic relationships on both ends. Right again,

(41:33):
the framing of like, oh, you know, having a good
dad makes you less likely to have bad relationships or whatever,
that all of that, whether it's in relationships or workplace,
it's navigating harmful men. Like That's what it goes back to,
how do you navigate it? How do you deal with it?
And I think to the point about it being hopefully
more hopeful and aspirational, I think it is about just

(41:54):
being a good parent and raising good kids. And that's
also why, for example, you know, with my and not
I'm not like shamously plugging my kids books, but they
center female characters. They center you know, female ambition. But
I really truly strongly believe it is just as important
for my daughters to read those books, to see themselves

(42:15):
in those books as it is for eighteen year old
writer to know that they exist and to believe in
female ambition. Right Like, And there is I've as i've
you know, become a kids with author and have met
lots of different families and gotten so much incredible feedback
on my books. There is this thing about like if
you're a guy like you who grows up in a
family full of women, you're like tend to be like

(42:35):
one of the good ones, so to speak, right, Like,
and by the way, there's data behind this, like you
are less likely to grow up and harm women. Like
literally there's a direct connection between boys who are raised
as good people and good families and often you know,
around women that are like less likely to sexual harass women.
Because oh, like it's not rocket science, right, It's just

(42:57):
about respecting people. And so anyway I find all this
stuff obviously I'm not like, I'm not an expert. I
have a question because it's it's it's actually opposing in
Like this conversation is making me think about debate and
how when you grow up with siblings, you're there's constant debate,
Like you're constantly you're constantly being told that like you're

(43:20):
wrong and you're trying to express why you're they're wrong,
and you have different opinions, different ideas, you look at
life differently, and because you're related and growing up together,
you know you have to figure out that sort of
conflict resolution or places where you do agree and you
not having that, Like where did you did you ever

(43:43):
get any any sense of like, no, mean, it's never
been wrong. Yeah, you know what with all fucking lawyers,
are you kidding? Like it was literally like you argue
for a living, like you debate for a living. So
you know, the whole joke is, you know, Thanksgiving dinner,

(44:04):
how not only about it being so many women, but
it's like my mom was like an ACLU lawyer. My
aunt at the time was like, you know, lawyer in
San Francisco, like my grandmother very you know, kind of
radical activists. Like wow, I would love to listen to
that conversation. But also again back to parenting, like, because
I was an only child I was. I think this

(44:25):
was both a parenting approach as well as again people
were just trying to make things work and get through
the day I was. I was, I was treated like
an adult in the sense that I was talked to
like an adult. It was assumed that I knew what
somebody was saying to me, that didn't need to dumb
it down, that you weren't. You know, there was never
a kiddie table at those Thanksgiving dinners. You were welcome

(44:46):
at the adult table, and you were encouraged to engage
in conversation. You know, if you didn't have something to
say to listen and learn, and if you did, if
you wanted to hop into that debate, that you better
have a good argument to me. Or if you don't,
better have you know, thinks skin to be willing to
be challenged. Now, what are those tables political? Yes, always

(45:07):
disagreeable moments? Or are you pretty much all on the
same page? No way? Oh my god, Like again, just
by nature, like you know, and this is this is
a joke that I have with a lot of my
lawyer friends. And if like you didn't, if you didn't
go to law school, it can be like yo, like
you're really aggressive, Like it's not a debate. It's like, no,
my whole everything is a debate. What do you mean?

(45:28):
Like this is just how I communicate. But it's like
we'll have, you know, guess over and it's like everybody's
like yelling and debating. And I remember one moment where
my friends was like whoa oh it was one of
my friends. It was Ella. We were this was who's Ella?
Ella is Kanalla's stepdaughter. Oh okay, this was I can't

(45:49):
remember when it was, but we were all it was
like a very passionate, like excited conversation, and we were
like debating something and arguing, and I remember her being like,
do you realize everyone's yelling? And I was like, girl,
you've been here long enough to know how we all
communicate it. Like nobody's yelling, We're like talking very passionately.
But yeah, like that was just you know, uh, that's

(46:12):
a that's a given. And so yeah, there was There's
lots of passionate debate and argument, and again it's part
of the to me growing up like that was the
the vibranc scene of it. I think you asked the
question about like having the focus on me, And on
the one hand, sure I did, like in this little
tiny family of me, my mom, and my aunt, but

(46:33):
we had such a big, vibrant community. And again in
terms of the movement and what my grand the world
that my grandmother was in in the new community and
or second family she was creating, it was you know,
so many again extraordinary brilliant change making, you know, courageous
folks that were just doing the work. And that was

(46:54):
what I was surrounded by at you know, over the holidays,
at you know, during weekend family gatherings. It was all
about that community, and so it's it's funny you mentioned
that about being kind of quiet, which is reminds me
of a conversation I had with a parent friend. They
have three girls, and he was just telling me yesterday
that the youngest one that they literally call her baby

(47:16):
is her nickname. He said that she's the loudest of
all of them, and his theory is like, she's trying
to be heard because everybody else is so loud and
she needs to be like, hey, I'm here right like,
and I wonder if likewise again, I mean, there's so
many different What I was going to say back on
the like dad question is that there's so many influences.
On the one hand, there's so much that we can

(47:36):
try to do as parents and equip our kids with whatever,
you know, as you said, tools to be strong and
tough whatever that means, you know, to teach them about
curiosity and being kind, all those things that we are
just trying to do to raise good people. You can't
there's so much you can't control. School. Well, it's also like, sure, yeah,

(47:58):
of just biology, you know, you know, I mean, yeah,
the big secret are not big secret, but a lot
of people don't know this. My mom, my aunt, and
my grandmother are all actually very creative and artistically talented.
My grandmother was like a prodigy child singer. It won
like a President's medal, and then became a scientist. That's

(48:19):
what you do. But you dance and sing, too, right,
I yeah, I And in part because my grandmother really
encouraged me, and it's because of her that I danced
my my whole life. I you know, they put me
in art camp every summer because that's what I wanted
to do. You know, most kids went for like either
the morning or the afternoon and only like two week
session for the whole summer. I went morning and afternoon

(48:42):
for every session of the entire summer of our camp.
Looking back, frankly, I should have been in theater. My
my secret dream was to be on Broadway, but I
had fucking stage fright, and so I always like backed
out of doing like stage stuff. But you know that
point about like I and I have other women in particular,
my great grant gandmother was a classical dancer. I have

(49:04):
aunts and uncles that were full time musicians. That's clearly
in our family, right, and it's clearly in me, I
see it my older daughter. I've been talking about a
younger one being sort of this performer and not being clear.
The older one is incredibly artistically talented, and it's just
fun to kind of see how that stuff comes out,
even if, like you would not expect that because everybody's

(49:26):
like a serious lawyer, right like they didn't. So we're
gonna have to wrap up here soon. But I want
to get through a couple questions. One, does your husband
have siblings? He does, He is the middle of three,
so I'm also obsessed with all I'm just generally obsessed
with sibling dynamics right right if they do, like three
more hour conversation, I know. I feel like that would

(49:47):
happen if you're an only child. You would be like
this is and you get to, like you said, watch
it in your own kids, which must be really really
fun for you. I want to talk about your founding
phenomenal women woman, and then your children children's books, who
did common and Maya's big idea what we talked about,
and then Ambitious Girl, and just kind of explain where

(50:08):
this came from, and then why you're no longer you know,
doing law and practicing law and what this new creative
venture and are you going to start auditioning for acting gigs? Oh?
I feel it. I feel like that's common. I have
been trying to get out of and back away from

(50:30):
being a lawyer the while I was applying to law
school basically, and fun fact, my biggest like role model
in life is a Hollywood person. She's her name is
Christy Habeger. She's like an auntie to me. She was
lost of classes with my mother and at Stanford, and

(50:51):
she famously never took the bar exam and became this,
you know, in my child's eye, like just incredible, you know.
And there was a time where I was like, oh,
maybe I want to be an entertainment layer. It's like, no, girl,
you shouldn't even go to law school. I figured it
out ultimately, but Christie. I wanted to be Christie. I
wanted to figure out, like how do I do what

(51:11):
she's doing? But my the tool that I knew and
that I was exposed to was the law, right And
so I went to law school and I mentioned Christie
because I went in being like I'm not gonna even
take the bar, Like I'm not trying to do that.
By the way, kids like if you go to law
school and you pay all that money, like just take
the fucking bar. And yeah, especially at the California Bar

(51:34):
back then it was three days long. That could be
a whole other cart Like it just is just torture anyway.
So I but I also always had sort of creative
stuff that I was doing on the side. I always
have like seven jobs. I was like making and selling
earrings throughout college. I was it was very clear that
I was for sure entrepreneurial. And I mentioned, you know,

(51:55):
spending all my stummers in art camp. I was always artistic.
I took art classes at Stanford, you know, when I could. Anyway,
I think the thing that's fascinating for me is I
would have changed anything about it. A lot of what
I learned in law school, my post law school, you know, career,
I think created a foundation both in knowledge and skill
and you know all the things that come along with that,

(52:17):
those experiences that really set me up for success to
do what I'm doing today. So on the one hand,
I do think about, like, damn it, I this is
you know, this is clearly my space, Like what if
what if I had figured this out ten or fifteen
years earlier, and on the one hand, it's kind of
interesting to think about. On the other, I think that
I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing at that
the exact you know, time that I'm supposed to be

(52:38):
doing it. So all to say, you know, I took
probably too long to back away from the legal field.
I worked at A I was like corporate lawyer for
many years, cybersecurity data privacy lawyer, went back to the
tech industry. I was in tech after college and then
went back and then like slow, I was doing policy work,
so like not quite legal. I was the GC's office,

(53:00):
but it was kind of legal ish, and then finally
made a pivot to doing brand work when I was
at Uber, and that was both somewhat unexpected. I was
already doing Phenomenal at that point, and I had sworn
that I would like never go back to tech. I
got recruited based on our work with them through Phenomenal
and really thought about, all right, this can be you know,

(53:22):
not again to sound sort of overly academic or trying
to you know, like rack up accolades, but I was like,
let me go to a really you know, respected place
where I can get you know, some credentials and experience, right,
and I had an incredible boss who recruited me that
I wanted to work for blah blah blah. But that
was really what started to set me up for you know,

(53:44):
building a brand and starting to see through that vision.
Even still it was someone unexpected, it was. It started
off as a very small idea coming out of the
twenty sixteen election. You know, this one T shirt that
we were using to raise money for women's organizations at
a time when you know a lot of people I
think were really just jolted into action. And you know,
if I'm being honest, I had some you know, somebody

(54:06):
who was very political and was on the Obama campaign
and had been involved in politics my whole life, you know,
some feelings of regret and wondering if I could have
done a little more, I think, you know, so I
think that though the overarching point, like in terms of
law school to now, is I was still finding ways
to keep up the creative stuff in many different forms.

(54:30):
And what what what what's your hope for phenomenal? Like
what you know, what's your focus? Yeah, while we are
building a media company, many people have come to know us,
and some people still you know, think of us as
an apparel brand, but really we are a values driven
three sixty media company that centers women in particular women

(54:51):
of color and unrepresented communities more broadly. And you know,
I very much think about how I was raised, my
you know experience with political organizing, which I often sort
of analogize to brand building if you think about it
being around about community, right, and in terms of this
idea being values driven and purpose driven, it's about putting

(55:12):
equity front and center and bringing an equity lens to
everything that we do, bringing a diversity and inclusion lends
to every single thing that we do. And I'm just
so proud to say that, I think, you know, unfortunately
that's still rare where you know, you're literally putting that
front and center and it's baked into the you know,
the DNA of every single thing that we do in
the way that we view the world. But that's that's

(55:34):
what it is, right, And we're building a media company
with lots of different you know, community pillars and content
pillars around that that mission and that commitment both. Yeah,
we have a couple of scripted and unscripted projects right
now in development, you know, thinking about We just launched

(55:56):
a book club and are working with incredible authors both
to draw attention to you know, their voices and works,
also you know, doing production and adaptation and and really
I think overall the point is that you know, we've
built this really incredible consumer facing brand and people know

(56:16):
what we stand for, right. They know that we bring
that that equity lens in, that mission and commitment to
everything that we do, and we're now applying it right
to building a true three sixty media company. It sounds
like you finally found what you're passionate about, you know
what I mean? Like the point is, like I think
you over time, I mean, I think it's a perfect point, right,

(56:37):
Like you're always in the right place as a human being.
You're always in the right place. Yeah, you can look
back and say, oh what if but you were led
to this and now you're now you're in the pocket
and now you're in your sweet spot, and you wouldn't
be here unless you went through all that all the
other stuff, you know what I mean? Absolutely, Okay, one
word to describe yourself at ten at ten, oh precocious

(57:01):
and now precious pus and like funny, I like to
think I'm funny. What was the what was the most
rebellious thing you did as a kid? Oh, you know,
I don't. I don't think I can share that on
this podcast that you already you already asked me if
I did. I told you I did. Noticed that I

(57:22):
did not elaborate because I knew that you would not.
You know, favorite book is a kid? Yeah, you know,
that's always a hard one. I mean, I loved in
part I talked about this in the context of my books,
Like you know, we read so many of the classics
like good Night Moon. I would probably say where the
Wild Things are really sticks out, you know again just imagination,

(57:44):
creativity and and sort of you know, I guess in
some ways independence. They just released to Jordan four called
the Wow I'm a big sneaker guy, and uh yeah,
I got it for my son. They're really really cool.
So it's a Jordan four and it's the theme is
where the wild Things are just going to go going
to go to stock. Nick almost certainly knows about Nick

(58:06):
is like a crazy sneaker head Jordan fanatics. I'm sure
he knows about that. But I'm gonna still tell him
that I just got up first concert. Oh my god,
I'm so proud of this. Uh, it's the best answer.
In my opinion. My first concert was crap. It was
either Chriss Cross in my aunt. My god, I have

(58:29):
to I have to go back and look at the dates.
I'm pretty sure that was the first one. And then
my second one that's also great was Paula Abdul in
my mom. Yeah, what are your first what about your
first celebrity crush? Oh I can answer this in five seconds, Mace. Yes, yes,

(58:53):
like I had, remember, like you get those I mean,
I don't know if you do this, but like buy
the magazines and then cut out and then like put
the followup. Oh my goodness, I had like all these
collages that a dollar sign. Yeah, he's not like a
pastor a pastor Now I think, yeah, wow, that's kind

(59:15):
of graze. And then it kind of and then it
like transferred over to then known as Puffy Yeah. And
then and just to bring this all full circle, Christy
who I mentioned earlier, who's like an auntie to me.
She for a very a very long time was known
as my puff daddy auntie because she introduced me. She
was like the cool like Hollywood was like Hollywood friend

(59:37):
and then in the later sorry you did not ask
all these questions, but then later on it obviously was Drake.
Now I'm kind of like, you're over. You're over Drake. Yeah,
you're over Drake Best. This is always a question that
I it's always annoying when people ask me this question,
which is, you know, what was the best piece of

(59:59):
how many times have you had that? Like, what's the
best piece of advice your mother has ever given? I'm
just to impress for the show that eighty times every time,
answer every time, write down knowing that people ask this
quite yeah, like but what was the best advice you
ever received from your mother or your aunt, your grandmother.

(01:00:20):
I think it was kind of a collective piece of
advice that kind of bowls down to fuck the haters, right,
and that you know your purpose, you know your path,
stay focused on that, you know, live that out and
and anything that you know. Then there will be naysayers.

(01:00:43):
It will not be easy. Nothing comes easily, but you
know it's all a distraction and you know what's in
your heart, you know what you know you were put
here to do, and go do that. And I think
the key is like it's fuck the haters and also
maybe a nicer way of putting that for more inspirational advice.

(01:01:04):
It's just that, like nothing comes easily. You know, we
started this talking about in part my grandmother, and you
asked like, what were the challenges she experienced? And I
think we've had a lot of great you know, discussion
around the patriarchy and society and families, and you know
the world is not easy still for so many of us,
and you know we and yet you know, we still
try to pursue our hopes and dreams as best we can,

(01:01:24):
and anything that gets in our way is exactly that,
something in the way. It's a distraction. It's you know,
never let anyone else define that purpose for you. You
define that on your terms. I love that great way
to end. Awesome gat to me, Thank you again. This
was super fun. I could talk to you for hours.

(01:01:47):
Sibling Revelry is executive produced by Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson.
Producer as Alison. President editor is Josh Wendish. Music by
Mark Hudson aka Uncle Mike. If you want to show
us some love, rate the show and leave us a review.
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