January 16, 2025 • 52 mins
This episode of Sibling Revelry was recorded before the catastrophic Los Angeles Wildfires.
Oliver takes being a worry wart to the next level like a lot of people. So, we are pulling all the stop with anxiety expert, Dr. Daniel Amen.
Why do some of us worry about the worst-case scenario? And what are millions of Americans doing that causes premature aging in the brain?!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and
what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling.
Railvalry No, no, sibling, Rae, don't do that with your mouth. Revelry.
(00:33):
That's good. Airban Pit's for you, it's for me.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I don't know why that popped into my head.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Oh, you know why.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I know why.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I am going skiing in February over President's Day. And
I was thinking before I got on, like okay, what
the fuck am I going to stay and be? You know, Okay,
I got to go on Airbnb and make sure and
get a place it's like cool, I can handle my
kids that's close to the mountain. And that's why I
thought of it, because I'll be using an Airbnb and
(01:12):
Sandy Utah skiing Snowbird in February. Anyone wants to come,
let's go anyway. It's me. It's Oliver Hudson, Oliver Buttledch Hudson.
We got our guest in the waiting room. I'm not
going to give too much of an intro here about
my life because You guys pretty much know my life anyway,
but this is an exciting one because I actually follow
(01:36):
his Instagram account. I have gnarly anxiety. As everyone knows.
My mother has been, you know, delving into the brain
and using her knowledge to sort of help create a
curriculum for children and letting them understand why they have
(01:57):
the emotions that they have. There's a lot going on.
There's so much to talk about. I'm going to try
not to use this as a personal therapy session, but
let's bring let's bring the man on, doctor Daniel. Well,
this is a treat. I really appreciate you coming on.
There's a ton, a ton to talk about with you.
(02:20):
I mean a ton. Number one, my mother. You know,
my mom's Goldie, hon Did you know that? Or no
I didn't, Okay, so my mom's Goldie Hawn. She has
been researching the brain. Neuroscience is sort of her passion.
She's created a foundation called mind Up that she's been
(02:42):
sort of pioneering, or she pioneered and is shepherding for
the last twenty years, where it's basically creating a place
for kids to understand why they're feeling the things that
they're feeling. You know through science, you know, only frustrated,
you're feeling anger, you know what is actually happening within
(03:03):
your brain that is making you feel these things. And
I wanted to get her on. She has to go
into town, but I wanted her to come on with
you because it would be a triat for her because
she's heard of you.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Oh that's awesome. Yeah. So this is definitely, you know,
a place for me to sort of air out my
own insanity with you. But let's not go there quite yet.
I'd like to go back, honestly, you know, into your childhood.
You know, understand sort of where you came from leading
(03:43):
up to what inspired you to do the work that
you do. You know, like, where did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So I grew up in the San Fernando Valley as
one of seven children. I was third, which you can
think about two ways. One, I was irrelevant in an
Elebanese family, the oldest boy is the most important child.
(04:11):
And then the oldest girl was special an older brother
and older sister and four younger sisters, and so it
was a fair amount of chaos and I was clearly
not special. But it's total freedom because you can basically
(04:32):
do anything you want where my older brother. My dad
owned a chain of grocery stores, and it was very
clear that that's what he was going to do, and
so I tried it, like I worked in the grocery
store since I was ten, and I'm like, no, this
(04:55):
is not what I'm going to do. And then I
eighteen seventy two, Vietnam was still going on. I turned eighteen,
I had a low draft number, and odds are I
was going to be drafted. So I became an infantry
medic and that's where I fell in love with medicine,
(05:18):
and thank God for me, I didn't go to Vietnam.
I went to West Germany and I loved living in Europe.
I didn't like being shot at. So I got myself
retrained as an X ray technician and developed a passion
for medical imaging. As our professors used to say, how
(05:38):
do you know unless you look? And that really became
one of the major themes of my life because if
you come to one of my eleven clinics, we're going
to look at your brain. That it's the big missing
piece in mental health diagnosis and treatment. Nobody ever looks
(05:58):
at your brain, which of course is insane and since then,
we built the world's largest database of brain scans related
to behavior, quarter of a million on people from one
hundred and fifty five countries, and so incredible.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Do you have to get imaging when they are in
a state of whatever it is? We're looking for a
state of high anxiety, state of depression, a state of elation. Joy.
I mean, do you have to have those triggers to
be able to see what's happening now?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Because most of the time, you know, we get people
in their regular state. I mean, so for example, with PMS,
I have five sisters and five daughters. It's a real thing.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Five daughters. Wow, So I often were you trying for
the boy and it just didn't happen, or were just
wanting to have children?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I have a boy. Okay, I adopted a boy. But
it's a lot of estrogel. And so sometimes I'll scan
a woman, like right before she has her cycle, generally
the worst time of the cycle, and then I'll scan
her eleven or twelve days later, and it's the first
(07:18):
time you really believe in multiple personality disorder because their
brains are often very different. Your brain tends to be
your brain. If you go on a manic episode, it'll change,
but you'll still see the pattern beforehand.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Right. Yeah. Well, I, you know, have suffered from suffer
from anxiety since I was in my twenties.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
You know, I.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I had a moment and I thought I was having
a heart attack, like most people say, and then that
sort of started off this year just saying journey of
trying to figure out why number one, what it was,
why I'm feeling this way. You know, I got on lexapro.
(08:12):
I'm on lexapro now, but I've been consistently, not consistently,
but every once in a while having these big time bouts.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
You know.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
When I tried to wean off of my lexapro is
when I really like went into a crazy space and
had to go back on. But I feel like, you know,
it's definitely been something for me that has been character building,
There's no doubt. I guess. My question is is there
(08:41):
a genetic component to anxiety depression?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
For sure? And there's also modeling for it. You know,
if your mom or dad had it and they had
the negative thinking that often goes along with it, or
if there's chronic stress, it all sort of works together.
In my mind, I always think in these four big circles.
(09:09):
There's biological causes of anxiety, including low ferretin measure of
iron storak, high thyroid. The biological causes, there's certain areas
of the brain, like the amygdala or basal ganglia that
tend to work too hard and people with anxiety. It
(09:33):
can be genetic, or it can be based on trauma
and unprocessed trauma experiences. I think when you grow up
with someone who's very successful or very famous, it changes
your brain, you know. I mean, obviously there are benefits,
(09:54):
but there are also pretty big risks associated with it.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
So what kind like, how does that because now you're
speaking my language, how would that affect.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Well, you know, I've been blessed to see you know,
some of them, Yeah, well known people in the world.
And I'm like, dear God, don't let me be famous
before my brain is finished developing, right, And the brain
doesn't finish developing until you're twenty five. And so when
(10:25):
you grow up in the public eye, there's always bullies,
there's always critics, there's always comparison, and it's unless your
parents are pretty rooted, it can be very problematic. And
(10:49):
a lot of the kids of well known people I've
seen were in part raised by other people because parents
were so busy. It's tricky, and you could probably tell
me more about what it was like for you. Yeah,
but a sense of entitlement can happen, and entitled people
(11:13):
are never happy. And you know, I grew up with
a very powerful father who was famous in grocery business, right,
I mean it's a different level of fame, but he
was chairman of the board of a four billion dollar company.
Oh wow, I'm like, so, how do you live up
(11:34):
to that? And I think that was hard? Well, I
don't think it was hard for me to, you know,
always sort of be less than. But when I find that,
I when I don't compare myself to other people, I
am as happy.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
As can be.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
But it's when it's like, oh, you don't have this
or don't have that, that you get sad.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy because this
is your This is exactly sort of how I have
experienced my life. But this is not that. It's not
something that has been put upon me. I have done
this to myself. You know. The expectation is just self inflicted. Essentially.
(12:22):
My sister's famous, you know, my parents are famous. I
wanted to get into the world of mood the movie business,
but acting necessarily wasn't my thing, wasn't my love. I
kind of fell into it twenty three, twenty one, twenty two,
trying to figure it out, comparing myself to my friends
around me who are getting jobs that first baut of anxiety.
(12:43):
When I did sort of go inward and meditate and
write my journals and seek out therapy. It really sort
of that was what it came down too, which was
this comparison, which I still fucking do today at forty
eight years old. And I can completely relate to you.
You say, when I feel that moment of I'm not comparing,
(13:04):
there's just a weight completely lifted off of my shoulders.
It's just about getting to that space. I guess you
know well.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
And then I learned not to believe every stupid thing
I think free. I call them ants no nomatic negative thoughts,
the thoughts that come into your mind automatically and just
ruin per day. And I love teaching my patients to
(13:33):
be the leader of their emotions rather than the victim
of their emotion. So I want to take a leadership role.
And I wrote a kid's book called Captain Snouty and
the Superpower Questions, and it's basically and Captain snout is
(13:58):
an anteater, right if you have too many aunts? I
I have an ant eater. And whenever you feel sad
or mad or nervous or out of control, write down
what you're thinking and then just ask yourself whether or
not it's true that you don't have to believe every
(14:21):
stupid thing you think. Thoughts come from the news, you watch,
the music, you listen to, the voice of your siblings,
the voice of your mom or dad, your friends, your foes.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Darry Seinfeld said, the brain is a sneaky organ. You
all have weird, crazy, stupid, sexual, violent thoughts that nobody
should ever hear. And I spend a lot of time
with my patients. It's like, let's not let the side
(15:00):
voice get out. It's like always sort of assess. I
say this, does it help me? Do this? Does it
help me? Get me what I want? And too often
most people have never asked themselves what do you want?
(15:26):
When I ask my patients, they talk about money or
they talk about work, and I'm like, no, what do
you want? Relationships? What do you want? Like with my wife.
I want a kind, caring, loving, supportive, passionate relationship. Always
want that. Don't always feel like that rude thoughts show up.
(15:50):
Don't let the inside voice come out. Supervise yourself so
you get what you want, and people call that selfish.
It's most almost all of my patients what they want relationships, work, money, physical, emotional, spiritual, health,
awesome stoff. So acting in a way consistently doesn't fit.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You know you've said something that's interesting where you know
you're not alone when you have these insane thoughts. You know,
because sometimes I'll have the craziest thoughts of all time
where I'll just start ruminating on a scenario where all
of my kids are die in some am I in
some horrific accident, and I'm thinking, Oliver, what are you doing?
(16:50):
And I'm catastrophizing. Of course, you know, it's almost like
I don't even know why you're doing it. It's it's
a protection mechanism in case it does happen, you don't
hurt so much. I have no fucking idea.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
It's because your mind is undisciplined and you just have
to discipline it. And it's not hard, but it takes work.
Whenever you feel sad or mad or nervous or I
can just write it down and then go is that true?
And there's a process I learned from my friend by
(17:23):
Ron Katie where take each thought captive and there are
five questions. So my kids are going to die in
a horrific accident. Here's the five questions. Is it true? Yeah, no,
So question two is automatically no. If one is no,
(17:43):
so one is a true. Question two is is it
absolutely true? You know that with one hundred uncertainty of course.
Question three is how do you feel when you have
that thought?
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Terrible terrible panic?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, ye, even though it's something that's not true.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
The fourth question is how would you feel if you
didn't have that thought?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Amazing? Right?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
And the fifth question is turning that thought around that's
terrorizing you to the opposite, that's not going to happen
to my kids. That you meditate on that, yeah, and
then you're fine. Yeah, if you don't take each thought captive, Yeah,
(18:34):
you believe it even though it's a lie, and then
you act out of the erroneous belief.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
M Yeah, it's that it's cognitive abal therapy stuff too,
you know, I mean that's definitely it is that you have.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
To work it, and I figured out a way to
make it super simple. Yeah, don't believe every stupid thing
you think.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
No, I love that. It's so true. It's hard. It's
hard though, well, well, because you're creating these negative emotions
out of absolute bullshit. We're inflicting pain upon ourselves with
these ideas, these ruminations that haven't even happened yet.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
And it's harder not to do it right, right, I mean,
if you put in the effort, it's sort of like
going to the gym, Like if you haven't gone to
the gym in ten years, it's sort of hard. But
the more you do it, actually, in a matter of weeks,
you begin to notice your body changing and then you
(19:43):
feel really good about it. And so I think it's
important to just see it as good work.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Well, it's like meditation, you know, it is a practice.
You know, sometimes practice isn't as fun as the games,
and you have to just grit and bear and fucking practice,
you know, because then it will just get better and
better and better and easier and easier. It's so funny though,
because I like to work out, I like to run,
you know, I have a big I'm a fisherman, I
(20:16):
have a book. All of these things that I love
to do or some that I don't, but I just
want to take care of my body. The hardest thing
is to sit down for even ten minutes and enter
into a meditation, even though from a time consuming standpoint,
it's nothing, but there's such a resistance there. And it's me.
(20:38):
But I find that that's a common thing that people,
you know, can sort of relate to, where it's like,
it's ten minutes, just do it, but there's a resistance there,
And I wonder sometimes where that comes from. Why am
I resisting this, you know, because it's difficult to.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Do it for a thirty second?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Yeah, I mean it's just.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
The simpler you can make it, the tinier you can
make a habit you want to build better. Like after
our conversation, one thing that would be helpful is give
your mind a name. And like, I named my mind
(21:24):
after my pet raccoon when I was sixteen. So I
interviewed Stephen Hayes. He's the founder of ACT, a form
of psychotherapy, and he said, yeah, one of our techniques
is give your mind a name. And I'm like, would
I name my mind came to me almost immediately. I
had a raccoon when I was sixteen, when she was
(21:45):
a baby, and I loved her. Wow, she was just
like my mind, a troublemaker, t peed my mother's bathroom,
made all the fish out of my sister's aquarium, and
would lead rakom pooh in my shoes. And I'm like,
that's my mind. So when it starts bothering me, I'm
(22:08):
metaphorically just sort of put her in the cage. It's like,
you know, I don't have to listen to you, And
now what I do is in my mind. I put
her on her back and take her issues to like that,
And raccoons make over two hundred sounds. And it's about
gaining psychological distance from the noise in your head. And no,
(22:35):
the noise is not you, and you can assess it
and decide what's true for you. Right, it's not the
thoughts you have that make you unhappy, it's the thoughts
you attached to.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
What about when you're moving into more of an active
space or like impulse control, when you do have a
thought and you don't want to act on it because
you know it's bad, but you can't help yourself.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Give me an example.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Well, you know, let's just say gambling. Okay, so you're
a gam you're a gambler. You're like, I know I
shouldn't do this, I don't want to do this, but
you know, all of a sudden, something pops up online
and you get that hit of dopamine and now you're
off to the fucking races, and like, I have to gamble.
And I know it's a thought, but I cannot control
(23:37):
that impulse. What is happening in your body physically.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
So the things going on in your brain, it's that's
gambling is an impulsive compulsive disorder. So your frontal lobes
are not as strong as they could be, and your
anterior singular gyris I think of is the brains gearshifter
(24:01):
tends to work too hard, and it's like you get
thoughts that loop do this, do this, do this, do this,
do this, and your break is not strong enough to
stop it. Interestingly, there's a medicine, a supplement called ancetyl
cysteine that has been shown to help with compulsive gambling.
(24:26):
And it's a super antioxidant. It's metabolized to glutathione in
the body and It's been helpful for so many things,
even had trauma depression. But compulsions, there's studies with marijuana, alcohol, nicotine,
(24:50):
compulsive gambling, and compulsive hair pulling called tricotylomania. Not how
I got.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
What what about sex like sexual addiction? Is that compulsion
or is that something different?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Well, you know, I wrote a book called Your Brain
is Always Listening, and I actually rewrote the twelve step
program from a neuroscience perspective, and I'm like, so, what
type of addiction do you have? Is it an impulsive
addiction where you just can't say no? Is it a
(25:27):
compulsive addiction where you think about it all the time?
Is it impulsive compulsive combination? Is it sad you're using
it to treat an underlying depression or is it an
anxious to medicate an underlying anxiety disorder? So know your
(25:49):
brain type, which is why it aim In clinics, you know,
we scan people. It's like, let's look at your brain
and let's get it really healthy. And if your brain
is healthy, you just have much better control over your
behavior and you're much more likely to relapse and the
(26:09):
ants are much more likely to attack. If you didn't
sleep well the night before if you let your blood
sugar go low. So I actually have a lot of
my patients where continuous glucose monitors, and if they're blood
they go too long without eating, for example, they're more
(26:32):
likely to relapse. And I think just knowing what are
my triggers and when am I likely to have a
problem is so helpful in treading addictions.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
That's amazing. I mean, how I feel like this needs
to be more accessible, you know, so people can really
get an idea, you know, of what's happening, you know,
from a physiological stand point, you know, a science standpoint,
and how to sort of mitigate some of these things
(27:06):
through supplements or through just taking care of your body.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Well, Oliver, think about it with me. Psychiatrists are the
only medical doctors who never look at the organ they tree,
How does that make any sense? So I'm a double
board certified psychiatrist, and when I started looking at the brain,
I'm like, well, of course everybody should do this, but
it doesn't match the status quo, and so I get
(27:36):
demonized and I'm like, oh no, I'm not the devil
you all are. Last year, there were three hundred and
thirty four million three hundred and forty million prescriptions for antidepressants,
and no one's ever looked at the brain. I mean,
you've been on Lexapro how long?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I mean, fuck man, I was twenty four house in Selexa,
then went off at first some years, and back on
Lexapro and off it.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
And on it. So you know, for did anybody look
at your brain? No?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
No, no, never, It's never even a question.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Think of the arrogance of the medical profession that says,
I know what's wrong with you, and I'm going to
give you a medicine that's going to change your brain
to need it in order for you to feel normal,
which is why when you went off of it it
was so hard. But we're not going to really talk
(28:35):
to you about brain health. We're not going to work
really hard to have you have the healthiest brain possible.
We're going to put you on something you need, which
is a great business model. Right. They don't want to
fix you, they want to addict you, and I'm not
okay with it. So our mission is to end the
(29:01):
concept of mental illness by creating a revolution in brain health.
So if you become really passionate about your brain, you're
just less likely to need it. Now, if you need it,
we all just say you and light candles at church
and be grateful for.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
It, right right? Right? Ah? But what brain health? Because
when you talk about health in general, like you know,
they're physical, you're working out, you're eating correctly. How does
one get their brain healthy? How does one start that process?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
You know? So for me it's you should look at
your book, but not everybody can. But it really is
three things brain envy. You got to care about it,
avoid things that hurt them, I know the last, and
then do things that help it on a regular basis.
You know, I've tried to make this as easy as
(30:08):
I can over the years. It's love your brain. And
it all comes down to this one question, which is
so insane when I think about it, Is this good
for my brain or bad for it? Whatever you're going
to do today, fishing, exercise, the sunlight, something you love
(30:33):
good for your brain. Marijuana bad for your brain, bad
for your brain, mushrooms probably bad for your brain. It's
the jury's still out.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I was going to be a question of mine and
how you feel about all the new psycho Yeah, I
think it's dangerous. Do you really?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I do and I feel like I've seen this party
five times before, like Benzo's or Mommy's Little Helper. They're
innocuous and they help you complete lie. They're addictive and
once you start, Yeah, alcohols a health food, complete crap.
(31:17):
Vaping is a healthier form of smoking bullshit. Yes, pain
is the fifth vital sign that you're actually hurting people
if you withhold opiates from them, that's insane. And now
the big innovations in psychiatry for twenty twenty four are marijuana, mushrooms,
(31:45):
and ketamine. So the straight drugs of the sixties are
making a comeback. And I'm like, don't you think maybe
we should look at the brain and then the right
supplements and the right food and the right exercises.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, I mean, but what about the the because again
there is a there is sort of a ground swell
that happened in the fifties and sixties and sort of
got you know, shut down through government defund the grants
have been shut down and all that. But now there's
a swell that's happening with psilocybin, with md M A,
(32:27):
you know, yes, with ketamine, with with DMT ayahuasca. You
know where they're having these sort of high dose experiences
that are somewhat curing or helping PTSD, depression, all of
that stuff. You know, I mean, before.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
The like rational things, Let's look at your brain and
make sure you're not actually dealing with traumatic brain injury. Okay,
think about the soldiers coming back from rack in Afghanistan.
How do you know is it PTSD or is it
really a traumatic brain injury they're dealing with? Giving someone
(33:11):
psychedelic drugs in the dark, I think, I just think
it's not it's going to turn out like alcohol and
marijuana turned out and open, and I think we should
be careful. And you go, oh, but there's so much science.
But if you actually go read the science, because I have,
it's six hundred and fifty patients, it's not thousands of patients,
(33:37):
and it's generally done by people who were excited about
getting positive results. And now I have how old are
your kids?
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Seventeen, fourteen, eleven?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah, so my youngest is fourteen, but my daughter Chloe
just turned twenty one, and she's like, Dad, it's not
going out for alcohol, it's going out for mushrooms. The
(34:15):
mushrooms are the most common thing. And so if you
listen to the doctors, they'll like, go twenty five milligrams
under supervision. And that's not what these kids are using.
They're seeing way more, way more often because and they're going, oh,
(34:38):
it's good for PTSD, it's good for depression. I'm like, well,
so's exercise or learning how to not believe every stupid
thing you think. Or one of my favorite therapies for
PTSD is emd R, A specific it's eye movement desensitization.
(34:59):
I love d ARE. I think it's like mushrooms without
side effects. So and I want to be like, you
know because I post on this all the time. Yeah, yeah,
I got all these haters and say, you know, you
should be you should get high. But when you look
(35:19):
at the brain like I have, yeah, and you you go,
marijuana prematurely ages the brain. I mean, it's just so clear.
I published a study that's the largest imaging study ever
published on sixty two thousand, four hundred and fifty four scans.
Marijuana age the brain worse than alcohol and nicotine.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
But there's would have to be a certain amount, you
know what I mean. The intake obviously matters. Like to
be candidate, I I smoke or eat weed every day
my life at night now, it's just part of my routine.
I'm not a daily smoker, like in the middle of
the day or anything like that. I come home while
you're a gummy or smoke a half a joint or whatever. Right,
(36:04):
I'm not, you know, necessarily partaking so much so that
it's a real part of my life. It's just sort
of an end of the day thing, you know. I mean,
how much is that? How old is my brain?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I'll be worth looking. But I think for you, if
you do it every day, then you're constantly in a
state of withdrawal. And you go, oh, this really helps me.
But how it helps you is it's preventing the withdrawal
(36:40):
from it, and you know if you got rid of it.
So I do a show on Instagram called Scan my Brain.
And one of the people she was using it every
day and she saw her brain and she goes, oh,
I don't like that, and I'm like, no, you shouldn't
(37:01):
like that, and so she stopped and she said she
couldn't believe the amount of energy and clarity she got.
I don't know if you know, but it's actually NBA
players are smoking.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
A lot of pots. Oh yeah, Tona wi yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
And they forget stuff and it's it's it's just not good. No.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
No, I so here because I can only base my
shirt off of me. I have in the last little while,
you know, I was drinking way too much, honestly, like
just too many cocktails every day. It just became a
part of my routine.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
I did Aliver cleanse, and then I stopped drinking. I
stopped smoking cigarettes, and I was, you know, three weeks
and the amount of energy I felt and it was
just I was like buzzing. It was incredible. I guess
from if you're looking at my brain. The problem that
(38:07):
I have is when I am clean, I almost feel
anxious of like what am I going to do? I
need to have drinks, like I need to smoke my weed.
I I can't just sit here without a vice. Who
am I without a vice? What do I do? I mean?
(38:29):
This is what's going through my mind.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
You know, maybe that would be a good question to
ask yourself, even though I feel a maybody without advice?
Is that true? And so I was doing Chilean Johnson's
podcast a couple of weeks ago, and I live a
very clean and I do it purpose, Yeah, And she
looked at me and she's like, how can you have
(38:56):
any fun?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Yes, this is about to ask.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
You want to dance on tables? And I just I
stared at her like no, I don't want to dance
on tables, Like no, I don't want to do that.
What I want is energy and memory and clarity and
good decision and good blood flow for my wife. And
(39:23):
I want to make a difference. And I love the
work I do when I love my grandchildren. And it's like,
that's what I want. And you know, and if we
drilled down what you really want, it's probably similar it is.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
It's just scary to exist without it. I just don't know,
you know, Like, for instance, this is a perfect tam.
I'm not drinking during the week. I drink on a
Saturday and that's it right, Today's two. I've got my
all my boys. It's like the holiday.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Dinner, you know.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
I'm like, I don't want to drink because I feel good,
but I'm going to I cannot go to the holiday
dinner and not have Martiniz with my boys because I
don't know. This is what I need to get.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
This is what I need to get to I did
a program with bj Fogg. He's the professor at Stanford.
He runs the Persuasive Tech Lab, and he and I
worked on a program on how people change and it's
not the big changes, it's the little changes, the tiny habits.
(40:41):
He wrote a book called Tiny Habits and the tiny
habit is as good for my brain are bad for it.
And ultimately so a year later after we worked together,
he said, because of you, I wake up one hundred
percent every day. And I'm like, well, thank you. And
he said I stopped drinking because he said, and it
(41:04):
was never a problem, but when I drank, I didn't
wake up one hundred percent. And I'm like, so, what
do you want? And he goes, I want to wake
up one hundred percent every day because life is short.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Yeah, And here's the thing. Life is short. But we're
all obviously so individual and there's a part of me
that's like life is short. So yeah, I have those
one hundred percent moments. But at the same time, fucking
let's how can you be in Europe and not have
(41:40):
a great wine and smoke a cigarette? And this is
how I grew up, you know, my family. It's sort
of learned behavior as well, but I mean that's part
of life too. To me, strangely, that indulgence, you know,
where those memories you're reflecting on are like, oh remember
that when we drank eight bottles of wine at that
cafe and smoke two packs of cigarette and it was
(42:02):
a beautiful moment.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
And I'm thinking what it's doing to your body right
exactly like you said, really worth giving up a couple
of years for those moments? I mean, can't you have
these amazing moments without being messed up? Yes? I just
And you know a lot of my patients they say,
(42:29):
you know, I don't drink because I'm more interesting when
I drink. I drink to make other people more interesting.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Well, I honestly think that with with you know, because
you know, we all have our sensory things, and I
think visual stimulation is actually helps helps to promote change.
So when you can see what your brain actually looks like,
and instead of just being told it's bad for you,
(43:11):
when you can physically see it, I think that that
will promote transformation for sure. I guess the question is
how do you get it out there that everyone can
sort of take a peek at their brain to promote change?
And health and wellness brain wellness pod guess, And I
(43:31):
do write books, But I'm saying, how can someone see
their brain?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Like is it I want? That's why I have eleven clinics.
So come to one of my clinics. Yeah, look at
your brain and go is it what I want? Right?
I mean, the ultimate question becomes which brain do you want?
And I remember I saw this really well known person
(43:56):
ten years ago and he was drinking way too much
and ad like this massive wine cellar and so, and
his brain looked like twenty years older than he was.
And so I made him a poster healthy brain. His brain,
his brain if he got healthy, and his brain if
he kept drinking, And then saw him for a few
(44:18):
months and then lost touch with him, and then he
just came out recently said he's been sober for ten years.
And I'm just so excited for him. Yeah, you know,
because ultimately, which brain do you want? Because your brain
controls everything you do, how you think, how you feel,
how you act, how you get along with other people.
(44:42):
When it works right, you tend to work right, and
when it doesn't, you don't. And so when I saw
my brain nineteen ninety one, I was thirty seven, It
wasn't healthy.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Were you a drinker?
Speaker 2 (44:58):
No, I was never a drinker or smoke, but I
was overway poorly. I didn't sleep well, have bad habits,
and I was under chronic stress. And I didn't like
my brain. And so I think I've developed this whole
program because twenty five years later, my brain's fuller, fat,
(45:19):
or healthier. And that's the goal, to have the healthiest
brain possible, and you can make it better. That's the
exciting news. Yeah, big NFL study when the NFL was
sort of lying and had a problem with traumatic brain
injury and football, and I scanned four hundred NFL players.
(45:42):
Eighty percent of them get better when we put them
on a rehabilitation program.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Really, we don't have a ton of time, and I
know you got to go, but there's so much to
fucking talk to you about. It's crazy because I'm so
interested in this, And if you don't mind, I would
love to give you my mother's email. Guys need to
hook up. I mean you might become best friends. Honestly,
she's an amazing woman just generally, you know, and she
(46:10):
would love you, and I know you would love her.
So that's number one but number two, when you're talking
about sort of brain rehabilitation, like how does that work
and is it specific to the individual's brain on how
you rehabit.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Well, yes and no. I mean they're basic things everybody
should do and so love your brain, avoid things that
hurt it. Know the list we've talked about a couple
of them. Yeah, and then do things that help it,
which you're already doing some of them like running and fishing,
(46:45):
new learning. There's a whole set of labs I think
everybody should get. And certain supplements multiple vitamin fish oil,
optimize vitamin D. Huge fan of hyperbaric oxygen therapy. I'm
actually in Justin Bieber's documentary called Seasons, and he slept
(47:10):
in his chamber not necessary, but I have his brain
in January and then in August of that year, maadically better. Wow,
so excited.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
And did he feel I mean he could feel it.
You can see it and feel it.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
He could see it and you know, yeah, but you
have to sort of keep it up. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Well, let me ask your question. If you have your
brain and you're rehabbing your brain, and you were on
the right track, but then you have a night and
you and you get drunk and you have a hangover.
Is that how much does that set it set you back?
You know from an imaging standpoint or a physical standpoint.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Well, you know, if you're doing that less and less
over time, your brain's gonna start getting better. But you know,
like Mike Tyson just got in the ring, I'm like,
that's bad for your way.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Yeah, it's not good.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
Every once in a while to just go, let's hurt it.
And the more you love yourself, those times just become
less and less. Yeah, until they go, Oh, I want
to wake up one hundred percent tomorrow. So why would
I do that tonight unless you're just giving in to
(48:34):
the habit of the moment.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yeah, right, I'm used to.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
It's the holiday. So I have this whole group of
my friends where we have this program of what are
the healthiest things we can do this holiday season? So
rather than the excuse I got to go to the
holiday party and you have to get.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Drunk, rise on its head.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Well, what's the healthiest thing I can do? We're really
going to celebrate the birth of the maybe Jesus by
getting into a rude I mean it's sort of I
don't right, it's dead right, it's oh, I have memories
of this is what we do.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Mm hm.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
So, but you could make new memories every day you
are modeling health or your modeling illness for the people
you care about.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Well, I just love everything that you're saying because there's
so many different sort of avenues to all of this. Yes,
there's a physical side, but there's also the meditative side.
There's also the you know, the sort of fake you
make it thing where you can actually change the neuropathways,
the way that your brain looks through meditation, through positive thinking,
(49:49):
and in sort of reading a little bit about you.
I wake up every morning and it's funny that you
wrote this because I didn't know that this was even
a thing. And I understand that of course, positive of
affirmation is good. But I wake up every morning I said,
this is gonna be the best fucking day. Well I
just I just say it. You know, this is gonna
be a great day. And I read I was like,
(50:10):
oh my god, the doctor's saying the same thing. This
is how I try to I try to create that
space for myself, even though it's sometimes it's not the
best day.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
But you know, but you're taking a leadership role in
your emotions, and you don't want to abdicate. You don't
want marijuana to be the chief operating officer. It's like,
you want to have the leadership role. I do things
(50:42):
to make myself healthier. I've got such a joy talking to.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, this was really fun, buddy. I appreciate it. Thank
you so much. Okay, take care, all right, take care. Yeah,
that's something I could just go on and on and
on and on about. You know, I love I love
when he cut off. He's like, dude, He's like, all right, Oliver,
shut the fuck up.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
I gotta get the fuck out of.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Here because I just can't stop. That's okay. I got
put in my place by the doctor and that's fine.
But guess what he just did. He made my brain
go on the fritz. So essentially he has aged me
about a year with cut it with with wanting to
get off the He wanted to get off the podcast,
(51:27):
which then triggered my insecurity that I'm not good enough,
and then my brain sort of went haywire. And now
I'm masking it with self deprecation and humor, which is
a vicious cycle. So Doc, if you listen to this,
I love you, and I would love to come to
(51:48):
your clinic, and I think I should get a discount
because of how you have just set me back a
year with that rejection. Anyway, that was amazing. God man,
it's so many things. It's amazing, inspirational and then depressing,
(52:09):
you know, because we all like to indulge, you know
what I mean. You gotta live an eighty twenty life,
you know, if what makes you happy is that pure
clarity and that pure health and amazing, and I would,
but at the same time, like, how do I not
go to Europe and drink wine? How do I not
go to a holiday party with my boys right now
(52:31):
and have a couple of martinis?
Speaker 2 (52:34):
You know?
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Anyway, all right, I'm leaving enough of this peace
Hi. I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson.
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and
what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling.
Railvalry No, no, sibling, Rae, don't do that with your mouth. Revelry.
(00:33):
That's good. Airban Pit's for you, it's for me.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Welcome.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I don't know why that popped into my head.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Oh, you know why.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I know why.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I am going skiing in February over President's Day. And
I was thinking before I got on, like okay, what
the fuck am I going to stay and be? You know, Okay,
I got to go on Airbnb and make sure and
get a place it's like cool, I can handle my
kids that's close to the mountain. And that's why I
thought of it, because I'll be using an Airbnb and
(01:12):
Sandy Utah skiing Snowbird in February. Anyone wants to come,
let's go anyway. It's me. It's Oliver Hudson, Oliver Buttledch Hudson.
We got our guest in the waiting room. I'm not
going to give too much of an intro here about
my life because You guys pretty much know my life anyway,
but this is an exciting one because I actually follow
(01:36):
his Instagram account. I have gnarly anxiety. As everyone knows.
My mother has been, you know, delving into the brain
and using her knowledge to sort of help create a
curriculum for children and letting them understand why they have
(01:57):
the emotions that they have. There's a lot going on.
There's so much to talk about. I'm going to try
not to use this as a personal therapy session, but
let's bring let's bring the man on, doctor Daniel. Well,
this is a treat. I really appreciate you coming on.
There's a ton, a ton to talk about with you.
(02:20):
I mean a ton. Number one, my mother. You know,
my mom's Goldie, hon Did you know that? Or no
I didn't, Okay, so my mom's Goldie Hawn. She has
been researching the brain. Neuroscience is sort of her passion.
She's created a foundation called mind Up that she's been
(02:42):
sort of pioneering, or she pioneered and is shepherding for
the last twenty years, where it's basically creating a place
for kids to understand why they're feeling the things that
they're feeling. You know through science, you know, only frustrated,
you're feeling anger, you know what is actually happening within
(03:03):
your brain that is making you feel these things. And
I wanted to get her on. She has to go
into town, but I wanted her to come on with
you because it would be a triat for her because
she's heard of you.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Oh that's awesome. Yeah. So this is definitely, you know,
a place for me to sort of air out my
own insanity with you. But let's not go there quite yet.
I'd like to go back, honestly, you know, into your childhood.
You know, understand sort of where you came from leading
(03:43):
up to what inspired you to do the work that
you do. You know, like, where did you grow up?
Speaker 2 (03:49):
So I grew up in the San Fernando Valley as
one of seven children. I was third, which you can
think about two ways. One, I was irrelevant in an
Elebanese family, the oldest boy is the most important child.
(04:11):
And then the oldest girl was special an older brother
and older sister and four younger sisters, and so it
was a fair amount of chaos and I was clearly
not special. But it's total freedom because you can basically
(04:32):
do anything you want where my older brother. My dad
owned a chain of grocery stores, and it was very
clear that that's what he was going to do, and
so I tried it, like I worked in the grocery
store since I was ten, and I'm like, no, this
(04:55):
is not what I'm going to do. And then I
eighteen seventy two, Vietnam was still going on. I turned eighteen,
I had a low draft number, and odds are I
was going to be drafted. So I became an infantry
medic and that's where I fell in love with medicine,
(05:18):
and thank God for me, I didn't go to Vietnam.
I went to West Germany and I loved living in Europe.
I didn't like being shot at. So I got myself
retrained as an X ray technician and developed a passion
for medical imaging. As our professors used to say, how
(05:38):
do you know unless you look? And that really became
one of the major themes of my life because if
you come to one of my eleven clinics, we're going
to look at your brain. That it's the big missing
piece in mental health diagnosis and treatment. Nobody ever looks
(05:58):
at your brain, which of course is insane and since then,
we built the world's largest database of brain scans related
to behavior, quarter of a million on people from one
hundred and fifty five countries, and so incredible.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Do you have to get imaging when they are in
a state of whatever it is? We're looking for a
state of high anxiety, state of depression, a state of elation. Joy.
I mean, do you have to have those triggers to
be able to see what's happening now?
Speaker 2 (06:32):
Because most of the time, you know, we get people
in their regular state. I mean, so for example, with PMS,
I have five sisters and five daughters. It's a real thing.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Five daughters. Wow, So I often were you trying for
the boy and it just didn't happen, or were just
wanting to have children?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I have a boy. Okay, I adopted a boy. But
it's a lot of estrogel. And so sometimes I'll scan
a woman, like right before she has her cycle, generally
the worst time of the cycle, and then I'll scan
her eleven or twelve days later, and it's the first
(07:18):
time you really believe in multiple personality disorder because their
brains are often very different. Your brain tends to be
your brain. If you go on a manic episode, it'll change,
but you'll still see the pattern beforehand.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Right. Yeah. Well, I, you know, have suffered from suffer
from anxiety since I was in my twenties.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
You know, I.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
I had a moment and I thought I was having
a heart attack, like most people say, and then that
sort of started off this year just saying journey of
trying to figure out why number one, what it was,
why I'm feeling this way. You know, I got on lexapro.
(08:12):
I'm on lexapro now, but I've been consistently, not consistently,
but every once in a while having these big time bouts.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
You know.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
When I tried to wean off of my lexapro is
when I really like went into a crazy space and
had to go back on. But I feel like, you know,
it's definitely been something for me that has been character building,
There's no doubt. I guess. My question is is there
(08:41):
a genetic component to anxiety depression?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
For sure? And there's also modeling for it. You know,
if your mom or dad had it and they had
the negative thinking that often goes along with it, or
if there's chronic stress, it all sort of works together.
In my mind, I always think in these four big circles.
(09:09):
There's biological causes of anxiety, including low ferretin measure of
iron storak, high thyroid. The biological causes, there's certain areas
of the brain, like the amygdala or basal ganglia that
tend to work too hard and people with anxiety. It
(09:33):
can be genetic, or it can be based on trauma
and unprocessed trauma experiences. I think when you grow up
with someone who's very successful or very famous, it changes
your brain, you know. I mean, obviously there are benefits,
(09:54):
but there are also pretty big risks associated with it.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
So what kind like, how does that because now you're
speaking my language, how would that affect.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Well, you know, I've been blessed to see you know,
some of them, Yeah, well known people in the world.
And I'm like, dear God, don't let me be famous
before my brain is finished developing, right, And the brain
doesn't finish developing until you're twenty five. And so when
(10:25):
you grow up in the public eye, there's always bullies,
there's always critics, there's always comparison, and it's unless your
parents are pretty rooted, it can be very problematic. And
(10:49):
a lot of the kids of well known people I've
seen were in part raised by other people because parents
were so busy. It's tricky, and you could probably tell
me more about what it was like for you. Yeah,
but a sense of entitlement can happen, and entitled people
(11:13):
are never happy. And you know, I grew up with
a very powerful father who was famous in grocery business, right,
I mean it's a different level of fame, but he
was chairman of the board of a four billion dollar company.
Oh wow, I'm like, so, how do you live up
(11:34):
to that? And I think that was hard? Well, I
don't think it was hard for me to, you know,
always sort of be less than. But when I find that,
I when I don't compare myself to other people, I
am as happy.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
As can be.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
But it's when it's like, oh, you don't have this
or don't have that, that you get sad.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, it's crazy. It's crazy because this
is your This is exactly sort of how I have
experienced my life. But this is not that. It's not
something that has been put upon me. I have done
this to myself. You know. The expectation is just self inflicted. Essentially.
(12:22):
My sister's famous, you know, my parents are famous. I
wanted to get into the world of mood the movie business,
but acting necessarily wasn't my thing, wasn't my love. I
kind of fell into it twenty three, twenty one, twenty two,
trying to figure it out, comparing myself to my friends
around me who are getting jobs that first baut of anxiety.
(12:43):
When I did sort of go inward and meditate and
write my journals and seek out therapy. It really sort
of that was what it came down too, which was
this comparison, which I still fucking do today at forty
eight years old. And I can completely relate to you.
You say, when I feel that moment of I'm not comparing,
(13:04):
there's just a weight completely lifted off of my shoulders.
It's just about getting to that space. I guess you
know well.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
And then I learned not to believe every stupid thing
I think free. I call them ants no nomatic negative thoughts,
the thoughts that come into your mind automatically and just
ruin per day. And I love teaching my patients to
(13:33):
be the leader of their emotions rather than the victim
of their emotion. So I want to take a leadership role.
And I wrote a kid's book called Captain Snouty and
the Superpower Questions, and it's basically and Captain snout is
(13:58):
an anteater, right if you have too many aunts? I
I have an ant eater. And whenever you feel sad
or mad or nervous or out of control, write down
what you're thinking and then just ask yourself whether or
not it's true that you don't have to believe every
(14:21):
stupid thing you think. Thoughts come from the news, you watch,
the music, you listen to, the voice of your siblings,
the voice of your mom or dad, your friends, your foes.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
And.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Darry Seinfeld said, the brain is a sneaky organ. You
all have weird, crazy, stupid, sexual, violent thoughts that nobody
should ever hear. And I spend a lot of time
with my patients. It's like, let's not let the side
(15:00):
voice get out. It's like always sort of assess. I
say this, does it help me? Do this? Does it
help me? Get me what I want? And too often
most people have never asked themselves what do you want?
(15:26):
When I ask my patients, they talk about money or
they talk about work, and I'm like, no, what do
you want? Relationships? What do you want? Like with my wife.
I want a kind, caring, loving, supportive, passionate relationship. Always
want that. Don't always feel like that rude thoughts show up.
(15:50):
Don't let the inside voice come out. Supervise yourself so
you get what you want, and people call that selfish.
It's most almost all of my patients what they want relationships, work, money, physical, emotional, spiritual, health,
awesome stoff. So acting in a way consistently doesn't fit.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You know you've said something that's interesting where you know
you're not alone when you have these insane thoughts. You know,
because sometimes I'll have the craziest thoughts of all time
where I'll just start ruminating on a scenario where all
of my kids are die in some am I in
some horrific accident, and I'm thinking, Oliver, what are you doing?
(16:50):
And I'm catastrophizing. Of course, you know, it's almost like
I don't even know why you're doing it. It's it's
a protection mechanism in case it does happen, you don't
hurt so much. I have no fucking idea.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
It's because your mind is undisciplined and you just have
to discipline it. And it's not hard, but it takes work.
Whenever you feel sad or mad or nervous or I
can just write it down and then go is that true?
And there's a process I learned from my friend by
(17:23):
Ron Katie where take each thought captive and there are
five questions. So my kids are going to die in
a horrific accident. Here's the five questions. Is it true? Yeah, no,
So question two is automatically no. If one is no,
(17:43):
so one is a true. Question two is is it
absolutely true? You know that with one hundred uncertainty of course.
Question three is how do you feel when you have
that thought?
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Terrible terrible panic?
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Yeah, ye, even though it's something that's not true.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
The fourth question is how would you feel if you
didn't have that thought?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Amazing? Right?
Speaker 2 (18:10):
And the fifth question is turning that thought around that's
terrorizing you to the opposite, that's not going to happen
to my kids. That you meditate on that, yeah, and
then you're fine. Yeah, if you don't take each thought captive, Yeah,
(18:34):
you believe it even though it's a lie, and then
you act out of the erroneous belief.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
M Yeah, it's that it's cognitive abal therapy stuff too,
you know, I mean that's definitely it is that you have.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
To work it, and I figured out a way to
make it super simple. Yeah, don't believe every stupid thing
you think.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
No, I love that. It's so true. It's hard. It's
hard though, well, well, because you're creating these negative emotions
out of absolute bullshit. We're inflicting pain upon ourselves with
these ideas, these ruminations that haven't even happened yet.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
And it's harder not to do it right, right, I mean,
if you put in the effort, it's sort of like
going to the gym, Like if you haven't gone to
the gym in ten years, it's sort of hard. But
the more you do it, actually, in a matter of weeks,
you begin to notice your body changing and then you
(19:43):
feel really good about it. And so I think it's
important to just see it as good work.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Well, it's like meditation, you know, it is a practice.
You know, sometimes practice isn't as fun as the games,
and you have to just grit and bear and fucking practice,
you know, because then it will just get better and
better and better and easier and easier. It's so funny though,
because I like to work out, I like to run,
you know, I have a big I'm a fisherman, I
(20:16):
have a book. All of these things that I love
to do or some that I don't, but I just
want to take care of my body. The hardest thing
is to sit down for even ten minutes and enter
into a meditation, even though from a time consuming standpoint,
it's nothing, but there's such a resistance there. And it's me.
(20:38):
But I find that that's a common thing that people,
you know, can sort of relate to, where it's like,
it's ten minutes, just do it, but there's a resistance there,
And I wonder sometimes where that comes from. Why am
I resisting this, you know, because it's difficult to.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Do it for a thirty second?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Yeah, I mean it's just.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
The simpler you can make it, the tinier you can
make a habit you want to build better. Like after
our conversation, one thing that would be helpful is give
your mind a name. And like, I named my mind
(21:24):
after my pet raccoon when I was sixteen. So I
interviewed Stephen Hayes. He's the founder of ACT, a form
of psychotherapy, and he said, yeah, one of our techniques
is give your mind a name. And I'm like, would
I name my mind came to me almost immediately. I
had a raccoon when I was sixteen, when she was
(21:45):
a baby, and I loved her. Wow, she was just
like my mind, a troublemaker, t peed my mother's bathroom,
made all the fish out of my sister's aquarium, and
would lead rakom pooh in my shoes. And I'm like,
that's my mind. So when it starts bothering me, I'm
(22:08):
metaphorically just sort of put her in the cage. It's like,
you know, I don't have to listen to you, And
now what I do is in my mind. I put
her on her back and take her issues to like that,
And raccoons make over two hundred sounds. And it's about
gaining psychological distance from the noise in your head. And no,
(22:35):
the noise is not you, and you can assess it
and decide what's true for you. Right, it's not the
thoughts you have that make you unhappy, it's the thoughts
you attached to.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
What about when you're moving into more of an active
space or like impulse control, when you do have a
thought and you don't want to act on it because
you know it's bad, but you can't help yourself.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Give me an example.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Well, you know, let's just say gambling. Okay, so you're
a gam you're a gambler. You're like, I know I
shouldn't do this, I don't want to do this, but
you know, all of a sudden, something pops up online
and you get that hit of dopamine and now you're
off to the fucking races, and like, I have to gamble.
And I know it's a thought, but I cannot control
(23:37):
that impulse. What is happening in your body physically.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
So the things going on in your brain, it's that's
gambling is an impulsive compulsive disorder. So your frontal lobes
are not as strong as they could be, and your
anterior singular gyris I think of is the brains gearshifter
(24:01):
tends to work too hard, and it's like you get
thoughts that loop do this, do this, do this, do this,
do this, and your break is not strong enough to
stop it. Interestingly, there's a medicine, a supplement called ancetyl
cysteine that has been shown to help with compulsive gambling.
(24:26):
And it's a super antioxidant. It's metabolized to glutathione in
the body and It's been helpful for so many things,
even had trauma depression. But compulsions, there's studies with marijuana, alcohol, nicotine,
(24:50):
compulsive gambling, and compulsive hair pulling called tricotylomania. Not how
I got.
Speaker 1 (24:58):
What what about sex like sexual addiction? Is that compulsion
or is that something different?
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Well, you know, I wrote a book called Your Brain
is Always Listening, and I actually rewrote the twelve step
program from a neuroscience perspective, and I'm like, so, what
type of addiction do you have? Is it an impulsive
addiction where you just can't say no? Is it a
(25:27):
compulsive addiction where you think about it all the time?
Is it impulsive compulsive combination? Is it sad you're using
it to treat an underlying depression or is it an
anxious to medicate an underlying anxiety disorder? So know your
(25:49):
brain type, which is why it aim In clinics, you know,
we scan people. It's like, let's look at your brain
and let's get it really healthy. And if your brain
is healthy, you just have much better control over your
behavior and you're much more likely to relapse and the
(26:09):
ants are much more likely to attack. If you didn't
sleep well the night before if you let your blood
sugar go low. So I actually have a lot of
my patients where continuous glucose monitors, and if they're blood
they go too long without eating, for example, they're more
(26:32):
likely to relapse. And I think just knowing what are
my triggers and when am I likely to have a
problem is so helpful in treading addictions.
Speaker 1 (26:46):
That's amazing. I mean, how I feel like this needs
to be more accessible, you know, so people can really
get an idea, you know, of what's happening, you know,
from a physiological stand point, you know, a science standpoint,
and how to sort of mitigate some of these things
(27:06):
through supplements or through just taking care of your body.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
Well, Oliver, think about it with me. Psychiatrists are the
only medical doctors who never look at the organ they tree,
How does that make any sense? So I'm a double
board certified psychiatrist, and when I started looking at the brain,
I'm like, well, of course everybody should do this, but
it doesn't match the status quo, and so I get
(27:36):
demonized and I'm like, oh no, I'm not the devil
you all are. Last year, there were three hundred and
thirty four million three hundred and forty million prescriptions for antidepressants,
and no one's ever looked at the brain. I mean,
you've been on Lexapro how long?
Speaker 1 (27:56):
I mean, fuck man, I was twenty four house in Selexa,
then went off at first some years, and back on
Lexapro and off it.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
And on it. So you know, for did anybody look
at your brain? No?
Speaker 1 (28:09):
No, no, never, It's never even a question.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Think of the arrogance of the medical profession that says,
I know what's wrong with you, and I'm going to
give you a medicine that's going to change your brain
to need it in order for you to feel normal,
which is why when you went off of it it
was so hard. But we're not going to really talk
(28:35):
to you about brain health. We're not going to work
really hard to have you have the healthiest brain possible.
We're going to put you on something you need, which
is a great business model. Right. They don't want to
fix you, they want to addict you, and I'm not
okay with it. So our mission is to end the
(29:01):
concept of mental illness by creating a revolution in brain health.
So if you become really passionate about your brain, you're
just less likely to need it. Now, if you need it,
we all just say you and light candles at church
and be grateful for.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
It, right right? Right? Ah? But what brain health? Because
when you talk about health in general, like you know,
they're physical, you're working out, you're eating correctly. How does
one get their brain healthy? How does one start that process?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
You know? So for me it's you should look at
your book, but not everybody can. But it really is
three things brain envy. You got to care about it,
avoid things that hurt them, I know the last, and
then do things that help it on a regular basis.
You know, I've tried to make this as easy as
(30:08):
I can over the years. It's love your brain. And
it all comes down to this one question, which is
so insane when I think about it, Is this good
for my brain or bad for it? Whatever you're going
to do today, fishing, exercise, the sunlight, something you love
(30:33):
good for your brain. Marijuana bad for your brain, bad
for your brain, mushrooms probably bad for your brain. It's
the jury's still out.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I was going to be a question of mine and
how you feel about all the new psycho Yeah, I
think it's dangerous. Do you really?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
I do and I feel like I've seen this party
five times before, like Benzo's or Mommy's Little Helper. They're
innocuous and they help you complete lie. They're addictive and
once you start, Yeah, alcohols a health food, complete crap.
(31:17):
Vaping is a healthier form of smoking bullshit. Yes, pain
is the fifth vital sign that you're actually hurting people
if you withhold opiates from them, that's insane. And now
the big innovations in psychiatry for twenty twenty four are marijuana, mushrooms,
(31:45):
and ketamine. So the straight drugs of the sixties are
making a comeback. And I'm like, don't you think maybe
we should look at the brain and then the right
supplements and the right food and the right exercises.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, I mean, but what about the the because again
there is a there is sort of a ground swell
that happened in the fifties and sixties and sort of
got you know, shut down through government defund the grants
have been shut down and all that. But now there's
a swell that's happening with psilocybin, with md M A,
(32:27):
you know, yes, with ketamine, with with DMT ayahuasca. You
know where they're having these sort of high dose experiences
that are somewhat curing or helping PTSD, depression, all of
that stuff. You know, I mean, before.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
The like rational things, Let's look at your brain and
make sure you're not actually dealing with traumatic brain injury. Okay,
think about the soldiers coming back from rack in Afghanistan.
How do you know is it PTSD or is it
really a traumatic brain injury they're dealing with? Giving someone
(33:11):
psychedelic drugs in the dark, I think, I just think
it's not it's going to turn out like alcohol and
marijuana turned out and open, and I think we should
be careful. And you go, oh, but there's so much science.
But if you actually go read the science, because I have,
it's six hundred and fifty patients, it's not thousands of patients,
(33:37):
and it's generally done by people who were excited about
getting positive results. And now I have how old are
your kids?
Speaker 1 (33:52):
Seventeen, fourteen, eleven?
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yeah, so my youngest is fourteen, but my daughter Chloe
just turned twenty one, and she's like, Dad, it's not
going out for alcohol, it's going out for mushrooms. The
(34:15):
mushrooms are the most common thing. And so if you
listen to the doctors, they'll like, go twenty five milligrams
under supervision. And that's not what these kids are using.
They're seeing way more, way more often because and they're going, oh,
(34:38):
it's good for PTSD, it's good for depression. I'm like, well,
so's exercise or learning how to not believe every stupid
thing you think. Or one of my favorite therapies for
PTSD is emd R, A specific it's eye movement desensitization.
(34:59):
I love d ARE. I think it's like mushrooms without
side effects. So and I want to be like, you
know because I post on this all the time. Yeah, yeah,
I got all these haters and say, you know, you
should be you should get high. But when you look
(35:19):
at the brain like I have, yeah, and you you go,
marijuana prematurely ages the brain. I mean, it's just so clear.
I published a study that's the largest imaging study ever
published on sixty two thousand, four hundred and fifty four scans.
Marijuana age the brain worse than alcohol and nicotine.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
But there's would have to be a certain amount, you
know what I mean. The intake obviously matters. Like to
be candidate, I I smoke or eat weed every day
my life at night now, it's just part of my routine.
I'm not a daily smoker, like in the middle of
the day or anything like that. I come home while
you're a gummy or smoke a half a joint or whatever. Right,
(36:04):
I'm not, you know, necessarily partaking so much so that
it's a real part of my life. It's just sort
of an end of the day thing, you know. I mean,
how much is that? How old is my brain?
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I'll be worth looking. But I think for you, if
you do it every day, then you're constantly in a
state of withdrawal. And you go, oh, this really helps me.
But how it helps you is it's preventing the withdrawal
(36:40):
from it, and you know if you got rid of it.
So I do a show on Instagram called Scan my Brain.
And one of the people she was using it every
day and she saw her brain and she goes, oh,
I don't like that, and I'm like, no, you shouldn't
(37:01):
like that, and so she stopped and she said she
couldn't believe the amount of energy and clarity she got.
I don't know if you know, but it's actually NBA
players are smoking.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
A lot of pots. Oh yeah, Tona wi yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:18):
And they forget stuff and it's it's it's just not good. No.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
No, I so here because I can only base my
shirt off of me. I have in the last little while,
you know, I was drinking way too much, honestly, like
just too many cocktails every day. It just became a
part of my routine.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
I did Aliver cleanse, and then I stopped drinking. I
stopped smoking cigarettes, and I was, you know, three weeks
and the amount of energy I felt and it was
just I was like buzzing. It was incredible. I guess
from if you're looking at my brain. The problem that
(38:07):
I have is when I am clean, I almost feel
anxious of like what am I going to do? I
need to have drinks, like I need to smoke my weed.
I I can't just sit here without a vice. Who
am I without a vice? What do I do? I mean?
(38:29):
This is what's going through my mind.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
You know, maybe that would be a good question to
ask yourself, even though I feel a maybody without advice?
Is that true? And so I was doing Chilean Johnson's
podcast a couple of weeks ago, and I live a
very clean and I do it purpose, Yeah, And she
looked at me and she's like, how can you have
(38:56):
any fun?
Speaker 1 (38:57):
Yes, this is about to ask.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
You want to dance on tables? And I just I
stared at her like no, I don't want to dance
on tables, Like no, I don't want to do that.
What I want is energy and memory and clarity and
good decision and good blood flow for my wife. And
(39:23):
I want to make a difference. And I love the
work I do when I love my grandchildren. And it's like,
that's what I want. And you know, and if we
drilled down what you really want, it's probably similar it is.
Speaker 1 (39:46):
It's just scary to exist without it. I just don't know,
you know, Like, for instance, this is a perfect tam.
I'm not drinking during the week. I drink on a
Saturday and that's it right, Today's two. I've got my
all my boys. It's like the holiday.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
Dinner, you know.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
I'm like, I don't want to drink because I feel good,
but I'm going to I cannot go to the holiday
dinner and not have Martiniz with my boys because I
don't know. This is what I need to get.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
This is what I need to get to I did
a program with bj Fogg. He's the professor at Stanford.
He runs the Persuasive Tech Lab, and he and I
worked on a program on how people change and it's
not the big changes, it's the little changes, the tiny habits.
(40:41):
He wrote a book called Tiny Habits and the tiny
habit is as good for my brain are bad for it.
And ultimately so a year later after we worked together,
he said, because of you, I wake up one hundred
percent every day. And I'm like, well, thank you. And
he said I stopped drinking because he said, and it
(41:04):
was never a problem, but when I drank, I didn't
wake up one hundred percent. And I'm like, so, what
do you want? And he goes, I want to wake
up one hundred percent every day because life is short.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
Yeah, And here's the thing. Life is short. But we're
all obviously so individual and there's a part of me
that's like life is short. So yeah, I have those
one hundred percent moments. But at the same time, fucking
let's how can you be in Europe and not have
(41:40):
a great wine and smoke a cigarette? And this is
how I grew up, you know, my family. It's sort
of learned behavior as well, but I mean that's part
of life too. To me, strangely, that indulgence, you know,
where those memories you're reflecting on are like, oh remember
that when we drank eight bottles of wine at that
cafe and smoke two packs of cigarette and it was
(42:02):
a beautiful moment.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
And I'm thinking what it's doing to your body right
exactly like you said, really worth giving up a couple
of years for those moments? I mean, can't you have
these amazing moments without being messed up? Yes? I just
And you know a lot of my patients they say,
(42:29):
you know, I don't drink because I'm more interesting when
I drink. I drink to make other people more interesting.
Speaker 1 (42:50):
Well, I honestly think that with with you know, because
you know, we all have our sensory things, and I
think visual stimulation is actually helps helps to promote change.
So when you can see what your brain actually looks like,
and instead of just being told it's bad for you,
(43:11):
when you can physically see it, I think that that
will promote transformation for sure. I guess the question is
how do you get it out there that everyone can
sort of take a peek at their brain to promote change?
And health and wellness brain wellness pod guess, And I
(43:31):
do write books, But I'm saying, how can someone see
their brain?
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Like is it I want? That's why I have eleven clinics.
So come to one of my clinics. Yeah, look at
your brain and go is it what I want? Right?
I mean, the ultimate question becomes which brain do you want?
And I remember I saw this really well known person
(43:56):
ten years ago and he was drinking way too much
and ad like this massive wine cellar and so, and
his brain looked like twenty years older than he was.
And so I made him a poster healthy brain. His brain,
his brain if he got healthy, and his brain if
he kept drinking, And then saw him for a few
(44:18):
months and then lost touch with him, and then he
just came out recently said he's been sober for ten years.
And I'm just so excited for him. Yeah, you know,
because ultimately, which brain do you want? Because your brain
controls everything you do, how you think, how you feel,
how you act, how you get along with other people.
(44:42):
When it works right, you tend to work right, and
when it doesn't, you don't. And so when I saw
my brain nineteen ninety one, I was thirty seven, It
wasn't healthy.
Speaker 1 (44:56):
Were you a drinker?
Speaker 2 (44:58):
No, I was never a drinker or smoke, but I
was overway poorly. I didn't sleep well, have bad habits,
and I was under chronic stress. And I didn't like
my brain. And so I think I've developed this whole
program because twenty five years later, my brain's fuller, fat,
(45:19):
or healthier. And that's the goal, to have the healthiest
brain possible, and you can make it better. That's the
exciting news. Yeah, big NFL study when the NFL was
sort of lying and had a problem with traumatic brain
injury and football, and I scanned four hundred NFL players.
(45:42):
Eighty percent of them get better when we put them
on a rehabilitation program.
Speaker 1 (45:48):
Really, we don't have a ton of time, and I
know you got to go, but there's so much to
fucking talk to you about. It's crazy because I'm so
interested in this, And if you don't mind, I would
love to give you my mother's email. Guys need to
hook up. I mean you might become best friends. Honestly,
she's an amazing woman just generally, you know, and she
(46:10):
would love you, and I know you would love her.
So that's number one but number two, when you're talking
about sort of brain rehabilitation, like how does that work
and is it specific to the individual's brain on how
you rehabit.
Speaker 2 (46:24):
Well, yes and no. I mean they're basic things everybody
should do and so love your brain, avoid things that
hurt it. Know the list we've talked about a couple
of them. Yeah, and then do things that help it,
which you're already doing some of them like running and fishing,
(46:45):
new learning. There's a whole set of labs I think
everybody should get. And certain supplements multiple vitamin fish oil,
optimize vitamin D. Huge fan of hyperbaric oxygen therapy. I'm
actually in Justin Bieber's documentary called Seasons, and he slept
(47:10):
in his chamber not necessary, but I have his brain
in January and then in August of that year, maadically better. Wow,
so excited.
Speaker 1 (47:25):
And did he feel I mean he could feel it.
You can see it and feel it.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
He could see it and you know, yeah, but you
have to sort of keep it up. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
Well, let me ask your question. If you have your
brain and you're rehabbing your brain, and you were on
the right track, but then you have a night and
you and you get drunk and you have a hangover.
Is that how much does that set it set you back?
You know from an imaging standpoint or a physical standpoint.
Speaker 2 (47:53):
Well, you know, if you're doing that less and less
over time, your brain's gonna start getting better. But you know,
like Mike Tyson just got in the ring, I'm like,
that's bad for your way.
Speaker 1 (48:09):
Yeah, it's not good.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
Every once in a while to just go, let's hurt it.
And the more you love yourself, those times just become
less and less. Yeah, until they go, Oh, I want
to wake up one hundred percent tomorrow. So why would
I do that tonight unless you're just giving in to
(48:34):
the habit of the moment.
Speaker 1 (48:35):
Yeah, right, I'm used to.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
It's the holiday. So I have this whole group of
my friends where we have this program of what are
the healthiest things we can do this holiday season? So
rather than the excuse I got to go to the
holiday party and you have to get.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Drunk, rise on its head.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Well, what's the healthiest thing I can do? We're really
going to celebrate the birth of the maybe Jesus by
getting into a rude I mean it's sort of I
don't right, it's dead right, it's oh, I have memories
of this is what we do.
Speaker 1 (49:16):
Mm hm.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
So, but you could make new memories every day you
are modeling health or your modeling illness for the people
you care about.
Speaker 1 (49:28):
Well, I just love everything that you're saying because there's
so many different sort of avenues to all of this. Yes,
there's a physical side, but there's also the meditative side.
There's also the you know, the sort of fake you
make it thing where you can actually change the neuropathways,
the way that your brain looks through meditation, through positive thinking,
(49:49):
and in sort of reading a little bit about you.
I wake up every morning and it's funny that you
wrote this because I didn't know that this was even
a thing. And I understand that of course, positive of
affirmation is good. But I wake up every morning I said,
this is gonna be the best fucking day. Well I
just I just say it. You know, this is gonna
be a great day. And I read I was like,
(50:10):
oh my god, the doctor's saying the same thing. This
is how I try to I try to create that
space for myself, even though it's sometimes it's not the
best day.
Speaker 2 (50:19):
But you know, but you're taking a leadership role in
your emotions, and you don't want to abdicate. You don't
want marijuana to be the chief operating officer. It's like,
you want to have the leadership role. I do things
(50:42):
to make myself healthier. I've got such a joy talking to.
Speaker 1 (50:48):
Yeah, this was really fun, buddy. I appreciate it. Thank
you so much. Okay, take care, all right, take care. Yeah,
that's something I could just go on and on and
on and on about. You know, I love I love
when he cut off. He's like, dude, He's like, all right, Oliver,
shut the fuck up.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
I gotta get the fuck out of.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
Here because I just can't stop. That's okay. I got
put in my place by the doctor and that's fine.
But guess what he just did. He made my brain
go on the fritz. So essentially he has aged me
about a year with cut it with with wanting to
get off the He wanted to get off the podcast,
(51:27):
which then triggered my insecurity that I'm not good enough,
and then my brain sort of went haywire. And now
I'm masking it with self deprecation and humor, which is
a vicious cycle. So Doc, if you listen to this,
I love you, and I would love to come to
(51:48):
your clinic, and I think I should get a discount
because of how you have just set me back a
year with that rejection. Anyway, that was amazing. God man,
it's so many things. It's amazing, inspirational and then depressing,
(52:09):
you know, because we all like to indulge, you know
what I mean. You gotta live an eighty twenty life,
you know, if what makes you happy is that pure
clarity and that pure health and amazing, and I would,
but at the same time, like, how do I not
go to Europe and drink wine? How do I not
go to a holiday party with my boys right now
(52:31):
and have a couple of martinis?
Speaker 2 (52:34):
You know?
Speaker 1 (52:35):
Anyway, all right, I'm leaving enough of this peace
Hosts And Creators
Oliver Hudson
Kate Hudson
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