March 5, 2025 • 45 mins
Dr. Nadine is the real-life ex-wife of the Wolf of Wall Street, as played by Margot Robbie in the movie.
She tells Oliver how much of the flick was real, and how she married Jordan Belfort despite having doubts. Did they really fight about drugs and money? Did he con her like he did his clients?
Plus, a look at how she ignored the red flags, why she says anyone can fall for a con-artist, and how she dealt with the aftermath of a tumultuous marriage.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi am Kate Hudson, and my name is Oliver Hudson.
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and
what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Railvalry.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
No, no, sibling. You don't do that with your mouth, revelry.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
That's good. Falara Hudson here taking you down the Elbrick road.
Have another podcast which leads to OZ. What is OZ?
I don't know. I don't know. Maybe OZ is me.
(00:54):
Maybe I'm leading you down a road to myself. You're
so deep I can get sometimes when I just my
mind wander. I got a week left on this show
in Toronto. And if you've listened to understand that I'm here,
ready to get home, loving what I'm doing, loving the cast,
(01:14):
loving the movie, loving my son being in this movie.
But I'm ready to get home. I love you, Toronto.
But La is calling me. La is calling me. But
in the meantime, we are here, We're doing a show,
We're doing a podcast. I'm in my room as I
am as so unprofessional. Everyone else has these like incredible
(01:35):
setups with neon lights and signs and mics that sort
of float in the ether, and you know, here, I
am like super analog with a fucking white v neck
on horrible lighting in a room. But I guess that's
what makes it me. I'm not very flashy. But at
the same time, you know, once I get back to
(01:56):
La maybe I'll set something up really dope. But we're
on the fly, baby, We're on the go. Anyway. I'm
not going to spend too much time talking about myself
because we have doctor Nadine, doctor Nay in the waiting
room doing awesome work involving toxic relationships. But you know,
(02:19):
I'm pretty sure she she came to it late too.
I think she got her PhD pretty late in life.
I think obviously her character, she was the inspiration for
Wolf of Wall Street, Margot Robbie's character bell Ford Naomi Bellford. Well,
(02:40):
without further let's bring her on.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I'm really good? Thank you?
Speaker 5 (02:49):
Are you good?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Where are you?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I'm in Pocaton, Florida.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Oh nice, You're in the warm. I'm in the freezing cold.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I know you feeling right?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, I'm doing a fun movie for Netflix. And I
got about a week left and then and then home
good and then home and I can't wait. I can't
wait to be home.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
There's no place like home.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
No, I know, I know. Let's start where you are now, okay,
and then we can go back. But you know your patients.
Let's talk about your patients. Let's talk about what you do.
Let's talk about what you specialize in, because I'm sure
you could probably help me. So give us a little
rundown of sort of your situation, the kind of people
(03:35):
that you're helping. And then also, didn't you come to
this a little later in life?
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yeah? Yeah, I didn't go back to school till I
was thirty nine and got my master's and then got
my doctorate. Yeah, I definitely came to this later in life.
I'm a late bloomer for sure.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And I love what I do though, So I just
love it.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I help women every single day recognize, heal, and escape
from trauma bonds.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Relationship.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
I get women now thanks to Zoom, I get women
from all over the world.
Speaker 5 (04:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
So trauma bond, you know, explain for those of us
who might not know what that is, you know, explain that.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yeah, so a trauma bond does any toxic, dysfunctional connection
between two emotionally attached people, right, It could be between
parents a child.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
It could be between Boston employee.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
It could be between friends, but the way I write
about it is between mothers. But what makes it pathological
is that one of the partners wants power and control
over the other partner.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
And do you find that it usually goes man wants
the power over the woman.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I think you could be seventy five, twenty five. I
think there's definitely women that want power over their men,
you know, and do it, and so in that relationship,
you usually that person wants control.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So they will. So this is the way I say it.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
The pathological partner, right will lie, arm, exploit, and betray
their lover to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure,
and status.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It's that simple, Okay, whoa, It's simple, but there's all
kinds of different caveats and avenues as to how they
might achieve that.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Correct correct, correct. So yeah, So what happens in the
beginning of a trauma bond is that this pathological person
I call them Romeo, they come in and they're charming
and kind and warm and generous and like so adoring
and so that you fall in love because you're like,
(05:47):
oh my god, I'm at a unicorn. This person is awesome,
they meet all my needs, are obsessed with me. But
then over time the mask falls and you get to
meet dirty John.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Do you think that this is a premeditated, calculated situation
or does it just happen? Are you with a narcissist
who might have good intentions at first, but they can't
get away from probably and potentially their own trauma which
(06:21):
has led them to be who they are.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, I think it can go both ways. I think
that sometimes they do.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Unconsciously believe that they believe they want to love, but
they're just so self centered. But I think a lot
of the times it really is calculated and premeditated. And
I'll tell you why, because they can act totally differently
when they want, and then the second they're alone with
(06:52):
their lover, that's when they get controlling and cruel and
they lie right to their face. But then they have
to go out to dinner and they're just back to
their Romeo cells.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, and it seems to be it seems like these
people may lack empathy, yes right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Yeah, they definitely lack empathy. They definitely lack remorse and compassion.
Because think about it, if you're just a tool on
their tool belt. They can't see you as a person
and have empathy.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, it's so interesting because you know, obviously narcissism, there's
degrees of it. I'm sure. Yeah, sometimes I question whether
I have some sort of narcissism. I mean, do we
all have a little bit of it? Is there sort
of some self preservation in being a narcissist?
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Yeah, like we all. I mean, healthy narcissism is okay,
I mean healthy self esteem are esteem based upon like
your actual accomplishments or what you are.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Really capable love.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
But like a narcissist is much more entitled and grandiose,
and they're exploitative.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So you can, like, you can be.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Selfish sometimes that's normal, Like sometimes you know, self care
is selfish, Like it's okay, selfish, But this is like
an extreme. This is a pattern of it continually where
you're exploiting people, using people, and harming people to get
your needs met.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Mm hmm gosh.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And then the bond comes from the flip side of that, right,
So it's it's the like you you know, I think
I think you talked about how in your past and
sort of what led you down the path that you
are on right now is your relationship and how it
would be complete, total and utter devastating dog shit and
then you would come into your apartment and there'd be
(08:51):
a billion roses.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
And that's what creates the bond, is that intermittent reinforcement
where you know, extreme acts of generosity and kindness but
mixed with extreme cruelty. And that's what creates the bond,
which seems counter intuitive, but it actually does because you're
always hoping for Romeo and that kindness and generosity to
(09:17):
come back, so you tolerate, as you say, the dog
shit times.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Do you think that, you know, there is a certain
kind of a person who is more susceptible to sort
of being taken advantage of that way, you know, who
has They're more susceptible to having that trauma bond, you know.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, I have two thoughts about that.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
So, first of all, everybody can be.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Conned by a con artist.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Yeah, right, If a con artist is really good and
they want to manipulate you, they're going to do it.
They're going to read you, they're going to figure out
ways to manipulate you. But if if you are a
very trusting person, like I was strong and naive, and
I just thought everybody was like me. I was like, oh,
I could trust this person. They have the same intentions
(10:10):
that I have. If you are a very trusting person
and you are agreeable and loyal and tolerant, and you
fall in love with a pathological person, you're in trouble.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
And how long did you actually stay in it?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
For eight years?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Eight years? And at what point did you know? Because
you are a highly intellectual person, you are most likely
very evolved, maybe more so now than then. But was
there a moment where you're like, wait a minute, like
this is so fucked. I am I shouldn't be here.
(10:48):
I'm smarter than this, but I can't. I can't.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Oh, there were so many moments like that. I mean,
that's the whole thing that you feel in the relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
You're like, what am I doing?
Speaker 4 (11:00):
I'm going again myself here to stay connected to this
person in this relationship. And my ex's drug addiction was
so insane that I was really always focused on that
and trying to figure out ways for him to be sober,
which didn't work very well. But it really started for
me right in the beginning, because when I first met him.
(11:23):
He was like, if you don't, if you don't marry me,
if you're not going to tell me we're going to
marry me, I'm not going to date you. And I
was like, what, I'm twenty three. I don't want to
get married, Like the goalpost was always moving. And then
if you don't, if you don't, if you're not gonna
have kids, and I'm not going to marry you. And
I was like, what's happening? But I just was rationalized
(11:46):
and I was like, oh my god, he just loves
me so much.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
What does your parents say about all this?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
My mother took me to lunch and she was British
and she was like, you know, you don't have to
do this. And I was like, my mom, I love
him so much and she just was like okay.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, And what about your dad. I don't know what
your relationship with your parents.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
My dad was a gambling I mean as a gambling addict,
so he was excited because you knew he'd have access
to a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
So he was like, go for it, go for it.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Not to be too analytical, because I've been in therapy
for fucking twenty four years, I've been to the Hoffsman process,
like I am. Oh yeah, so yeah, I have and
I continue to try to do it, although I should
probably get back into therapy. It's funny because I was
in the car ride to work today and I'm thinking, man,
you know, it's been a minute since I've been in therapy.
And I'm an advocate for it, meaning not just when
(12:45):
you are, you know, feeling bad about yourself or you
have something you need to get through. There's it's more
of just sort of a checkup that one should do
if they have the means every week?
Speaker 5 (12:57):
Why not?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
And I'm like, man, why have I I you know,
why am I not in therapy right now?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
You know?
Speaker 5 (13:04):
Why am I not doing this?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah? So gambler, that's right, probably some sort of a hustler.
If you're a gambler. I like to gamble. You know,
I have my vices. I consider myself a lowercase a addict,
and I don't even in many different things. You know, Yes, yes,
I like that, So I can kind of understand that idea.
Is there a part of that, you know, that attraction essentially,
(13:31):
like this is my father and this is what I want.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Yeah, I think that.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
You know, my dad wasn't that much in my life.
He was like, I work a real Disneyland.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Dad like literally came and took me to Disney and
then I didn't see him that often. Of course, in retrospect,
when you think about it, the stock market is just
legal gambling. Yeah, right, So there is that risk taking,
living on the edge variance to it.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
And for me, you know, my was I grew up
with a.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Who was in the seventies reading young in Freud.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
And like study wowology. So we were always talking about
our feelings. And my family was very psychological and I
was in a really calm, peaceful household.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So when I first met my ex husband and he's
like raging at me and so angry, I'm like, what
the I'm like, what's happening? I really didn't know what
to do.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Now, I am from Brooklyn, so I went back, but
I was no match for him.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, but what was the allure? I guess you know
what I mean? Was it the money and the fun
and the sure Yeah?
Speaker 4 (14:36):
I mean I was modeling in New York City in
the eighties and nineties. My gosh, okay, he was listen.
I was twenty two I was twenty three, he was
twenty eight. We didn't have a big age difference. I'm
from Brooklyn, he's from Queens. He's charming, he's handsome, he's
very bright, and.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
It was easy to fall in love with him.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
But then as the Romeo mask fell and I got
to see this other side of him. That's what happens
in the trauma Bot. I'm like, what the hell is happening?
Mm hmm, heay, where's the guy I fell in love with?
And I had no point of reference, but the way
he bathed not that many people would have to see
the movie right right, you know, it's pretty out of control.
(15:20):
And I think, and I put what happened is I
put myself write into therapy at twenty three.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Oh wow, I can't handle this life.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Sign lived in a ten thousand square foot house before
and had help, and then I couldn't manage him. So
I believe therapy saved my life. Yeah, and that's why
I became a therapist.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
When did that mask fall? You know? I mean, how
long was it? How long was that beautiful mask on
before I started to melt off?
Speaker 4 (15:55):
I was really only on for six months?
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Oh shit?
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yeah, because six months later we got engaged, and six
months later we got married.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
So now I'm in it.
Speaker 5 (16:06):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Yeah, And that's why trauma bonds often can be. They're
like fast and furious and super intense.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Was there ever, were there moments where You're like, I'm
fucking out of here?
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Oh yeah, like when he ripped the phone out of
the wall. I wouldn't I didn't want to have kids
right away.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
But then, just like a typical trauma bonds, you know,
I laugh about this, we'd have a fight and then
there'd be a horse in my driveway.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Mm hmm make up with me. I'd like, Okay, I
guess we could work this out.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
And you know, I'm being raised by a single mother
in Brooklyn. You know, we didn't have a lot of money,
and so then to come into all this money.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Of course, that was a loureene.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And fought mm hmmm mm hmmm.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Yeah, So so that was a that was a big
but there was a lot of strings with that.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And then of course the infidel
he starts and everything starts, and then you're just it
seems like you just get wrapped up in this tornado. Yeah,
and that funnel is just spinning you around. Even though
you can get an arm out and you're trying to,
you know, sort of crawl your way out of this cyclone,
it's near impossible. It's just it's spinning too fast.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
And the thing with him too, is that, you know,
in the movie they depicts you know that he was
that I was very jealous and he was cheating on me,
which I'm sure he was cheating on me. But the
interesting part is we never had a fight about a woman.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Really. Yeah, but he wrote why is that like that?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I never knew.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
He wrote the book like that and made the movie
like that. But so that's just so interesting. We really
thought about the drugs all the time.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And did you find yourself, because you seem like a
pretty grounded, compassionate person, did you find yourself having compassion
for this man as well?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So much?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Right? I mean, I would I would assume that part
of the trauma bond is the one who is experiencing
that trauma is also experiencing at the same time, real
genuine compassion for this person who's out of control. So
they're almost praying on you know, yes, your softness completely completely.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I had so much empathy for him and that's exactly
what they do. He's weaponizing my empathy, right, because of
course I felt scared for him. You know when you
go to dinner with your husband and all of a
sudden you get yourself. You go to dinner and you
don't see him pop ten kailouts, and then you sit
down to dinner and he's like, oh, how's a second?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
You know what happens? And you have to make a
bread pillow for his face because.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Right, yeah, it's just like who would want to do
that to themselves?
Speaker 5 (18:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, and you never got caught up in that world?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
No, I would take one.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
Yeah, I just I don't know.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
I've never had that crazy desire to escape that myself
that much.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
You know, I could have like a balanced sense of
fun for my monies.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, but no, And when was that moment where you
sort of found the strength to just be like, I'm out.
Once he got once he got dinged, Well, what happened.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Was that he was the coke turns in. I mean
the Creilutes turned into coke.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
And I say, he was cooking crack in my country
kitchen and I was little babies upstairs, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Like, okay, this is done. This is done.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
I said to him, I'm not going to sit here
and want you kill yourself like all your friends do.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Said you have to go to rehab or I'm leaving,
and that's crazy.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Do all my clothing and jewely into the fireplace and
let them on fire. And was like, you're not leaving
and I'm not getting it's over and you're not going
to tell me what's due.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
And I just went to my closet and said, God
give me the strength to do this.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Did you did?
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
And I did.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
And that's where the movie you see where he gets
violent with me. It's because I confronted him about that,
and you see when he drives my daughter, and so
that was that moment. But I actually jumped in the
car and put had my husband put the garage doory
down to where everybody was fine.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
And then he did get sober.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
He did, he did, he went, Yeah, I was almost
all got killed, but he did get sober and then
he came back. But emotionally I was done. You were Yeah,
and he got arrested. It's like, okay, your ankle wascelet.
Now is my freedom?
Speaker 5 (20:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Because the power and balance shifted.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, exactly, interesting, right, you took the throne essentially.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Yeah, he just couldn't have power over me anymore, so
like I'm done.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I'm out.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Was that just so liberating?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
You have no idea?
Speaker 5 (21:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I mean you could take a big, deep breath. It
feels like.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Yeah, I always I did a post about this with
Tom Cruise in Risky Business when he's on the couch
dancing when his parents leave.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
Mm hmmmm.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
It is unwear.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah, yeah, that's how I felt.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And how old were your kids when you actually left
it were three and five? Okay, so they were little,
so there's not a ton of recollection.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
No, No, I mean, you know, my kids have a
great relationship with their dad. My son's here, my daughter's
a therapist. Yeah, they have a great relationship with their dad.
And they're clothes. I went to the premiere of the movie.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah, you know, I would never keep my kids.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Yeah, as long as I know that they're safe and
he's sober and he's being a good dad.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
And at what point, and then I want to get
into sort of how this propelled you into what you do.
Let's just do that now, actually, because then I'll go
back to sort of your current relationship with your ex husband,
which I'm assuming it's okay right at this point. Yeah,
And I would assume right now that you would not
change a fucking thing in your life because of where
(22:19):
you are now and what it has given you and
how many people you're actually helping.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Yeah, you know, I wish.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I wish I could say I had like some big
grand scheme that I think that all this was going
to happen.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
It should have been so obvious to me, but it
really wasn't. And so I got license, and what was
happening was that.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
The movie came out.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
When I got my doctor It was when the when
the movie came out, I got my master's.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
No, I got my doctorate.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Were you consulted on the movie?
Speaker 4 (22:50):
I was not consulted because he wrote a book first.
So the only thing was that I got to meet Margo.
She wanted my accent and I took her to dinner,
and and that was really it. No, it's story, his narrative.
He makes all the money.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, and that's okay, that's fine, whatever, But what percentage
If you're going to look at that movie and give
a percentage of what's real and what's not real, what.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Would you say ninety percent is real?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Is it? Oh? Great?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Oh yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Wow yeah? Wow wow. What about the famous Leos scene
when he's crawling to the car.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
That's that's real.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Holy shit, that's real.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That's real.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
I mean I wasn't there because I was waiting the
house and then the car the house. The car came
back crashed and I didn't know because I put it
up bed. And then the police knocked on the door
and I was like, well, they're like, yeah, into an accident.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
No, it's all real.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, okay, So you got certified and then you decided
to become your therapist. How did you find your clientele
or did they find you?
Speaker 4 (23:56):
They think they so so that people started just to
come to because I'm a good therapist. And then once
I started to really focus on helping women, now it's
just like like wildfire because the very thing I worried about.
I'm like, who the hell is going to want to
come to make the therapy after they see this movie
made happen.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
But then the opposite happens.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Everybody was like, wait, I won't come to you because
you walk your talk like you were listen you came
out here. Yeah, And so it all just worked out.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
No, I was about to I was about to say that,
because again, I've been in therapy for a million years now.
I don't know the backstory of all my therapists. Oh,
there's only a couple, but but I haven't I have
enough of one, because yes, I am the patient. But
at some at some point, I'm always asking them about
their lives and They're like, Oliver, this is about you.
I'm like, I don't care, Like what what's your deal?
Speaker 5 (24:51):
Like?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
How do you handle these things? So I'm always digging.
But most likely most they're therapists who are, you know,
giving you professional advice, are doing so through school and
not necessarily life experience. You know, I would rather be
(25:13):
with somebody who has lived it as well, especially when
you are in your lane. You know, it's very specific.
So if I'm going to go see someone, it's like, oh,
I want to see this woman who has experienced everything
that I am now, who has not just you know,
a degree, but actual street smarts, you know what I'm saying.
So I'm sure that that's alluring, beyond alluring. And you
(25:38):
might and you probably have a way different perspective than
a lot of other therapists.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Yeah, and you know, a lot of times therapists will
really retraumatize women that are in abusive relationships, be like,
are you sure that's really happening. Maybe you're exaggerating, you're
being over reactive, And so I believe them.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You know it's real.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
And I know a lot of people can wear a
mask of sanity and drive you crazy at home, and
so they know I believe them. I have so much
empathy for them, And my husband goes, I know all
your patients are beautiful.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Help what they are, and I.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
Love them, you know, I genuinely love them, and they
know that I'm on their side.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Do you find sometimes with patients, though, that they are
maybe projecting something that is sort of a false narrative
or something that they have concocted, and that you have
to sort of take them out of that to get
to the real shit.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
You know, with this sort of scenario, not that much.
And actually they might not even come in and tell
me everything because they're so embarrassed. In regular therapy, for sure,
you know that that happens, but in this therapy sometimes
they're just so embarrassed for tolerating it and going back,
(26:54):
and you know, it takes four to seven attempts for
a woman to leave this sort of relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Wow, is part of this kind of therapy going back
into their lives and understanding why they are this way?
Or is it more focused on the current situation?
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Yeah, mores, more focus on the current I say, we
are in the emotional emergency room doing emotional triage work
because they're almost all in crisis. They're in fear, they
have kids, they got divorce attorneys, they got crazy stuff.
They're getting stalked, their phones are getting time. I mean,
there's just all sort of crazy stuffs. So sometimes if
(27:40):
we've once we've gotten through the crisis, we might go back,
of course, you know, but usually it's real.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Like okay, yeah, yeah, it's interesting because you do again
you have to deal with the situations at hand. Yes,
And I can only speak from just sort of standard
therapy or cognitive behavior therapy anyway. Yeah, but then once
you dig deeper, you understand sort of why you were
(28:09):
even in this situation. Right, Because I'm assuming and you
can correct me if I'm wrong, that not all women
are some men are susceptible to these things. There are,
it's you.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Know, some are more than others.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Some are more than others, more than others.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
And I break it down in my book like why
certain personality traits lead you? But I but what I
say is that anybody and everybody can really be fooled
by a con artists now at my age.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
But no, right, yeah, exactly. That's a good point actually,
you know, like life experience of course. Yeah, yeah, when
when when you're when you're twenty two and you're getting
your preyed upon, you're way more susceptible than if you're
in your fifties, right.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Exactly, exactly, So I think age has a bit to
do with it too, And also like how evolved is
the person?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Are they self aware? Have they been interested in psychology?
Speaker 5 (29:05):
If not?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah? And what was your relationship? What was your first relationship?
Like after that?
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Oh god, it's so much fun. I was dating everybody.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Oh you were, oh good, so you had a great time.
I was like.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Thirty two in a ball, I stated, Michael balt It, yeah,
like so many people. And then somebody said to me, Hey,
I have this guy I want you to go on
a blind date with. And I said, oh my god,
I've never gone on a blind date. I said, I'll
go out with anybody once? How bad could it be?
And now at hease my husband, it's.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
One amazing, that's awesome. But when you were starting to
date again, were you purposefully trying to just keep it,
you know, pretty surface, because you're like, yeah, because you
had was there? Was there PTSD involved? Was was there
that kind of you know? So yeah, how did how
were you able to sort of get through that to
(30:03):
then have a healthy twenty five year relationship. Yeah?
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Well, like you know, you mentioned how you went to
like the Hoffmann Institute. After I left my ex, I
went to a place called the Karen Foundation, and they
have a program there called Breakthrough, which is like a
five day program for people who want to learn how
to set boundaries, learn how to say no, I want
to go back to the family of origin, learn about themselves.
So I did that because I was like, there's no
(30:28):
way in.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Hell I want to go through that again. Terrified to
go through that again.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
So I checked myself and there so that between all
the years of therapy and that.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I felt like, Okay, I think I can trust myself.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
You know, that's interesting, It's funny you say that. You
said trust yourself, not trust someone else, right, right, Because
that's really what it's.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
About, exactly one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, because you I mean, at the end of the day,
hopefully we all find trustworthy people lives, but we have
no control over what that other individual does. That's it,
And there's something liberating about that if you can really
get down to that feeling of well, I can't control you.
(31:15):
I can't control what you're going to fucking do. And
if I'm going to sort of be all over my
head about what you might do, I'm only causing myself
pain that hasn't even happened yet, you know. I mean,
I've been married for eighteen years, together for twenty three
or twenty four, you know, Yeah, thank you. We've been
(31:35):
through our shit, there's no doubt about it. I mean,
big time stuff, you know, and with my wife, and
she's had to sort of in her mind sort of
go through these scenarios and situations where she has to
let it all go because nothing is certain. Nothing is certain,
(31:58):
So let's just exists today and make the best of
the day and not ruminate and catastrophize. Yes, you know,
because that's only causes harm.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
So well said, so well said, right, Because the scariest
thick things live in our mind, right, but when we
could be present, focused in the here and now and
just say to us like, oh, I'm safe, this is
good right now, I'm going to take it.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
M hmm yeah yeah, so run like hell is that
your Is that your first book?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (32:30):
It's my first and maybe.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Oh really, I don't want to do another one.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Oh. I mean, of course, I'm the only like idiot
that wrote a book before AI, right like finished. Yeah,
it was so hard because you're writing about part stuff.
I take four clinical I take four couples that are
trauma bonded, and I leave all their stories about all
the clinical material to life.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Oh cool.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Yeah, so it was really hard. Honestly, I don't even
know who wrote it. I read I'm like, I wrote this,
but I'm so glad I did it because it's helping
so many people.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
I think that's a great a great way to do
it because it's and I haven't read it yet, but
it seems like there's a narrative aspect to it rather
than just sort of a dry sort of book on
psychology or exactly.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
And so what happened is that, you know, I sit
in my office and I hear all these insane stories
and narratives and experiences, so I just wove them into
all different characters the names, and let them come to
life all different ages, so different people can relate to it.
And then, like you say, it's a narrative, and then
(33:44):
people can really see themselves in the stories.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Mm hmm, yeah, exactly. There's a relatability there for sure. Yes, yes,
so you talked about you just sort of graised over it.
But just the sort of the kinds of people who
might be more susceptible or less susceptible, is that actually
categorized or there?
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Yeah? Yes, yeah. So in twenty nineteen, I read a
great book called Women Who Love Psychopaths. There was great
research in there, and there's I don't know if you've
ever taken this test, but I can send it to you.
It's the five factor model of personality tests openness to experience, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness,
(34:27):
and eroticism. I give it to all my patients, and
the research showed that women that scored very high in
agreeableness and conscientiousness were perfect prey. The reason that you said,
those good qualities get weaponized.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yes, who scores very high in.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Both conscientiousness too.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, conscientiousness, like meaning, that's how I got my PhD.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Because I'm organized and diligent and I'm driven, and I'm like,
I'm going to get it done.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Great, but not when you're in a toxic relationship. Yeah,
you're like, I'm going to stay, I'm going to figure
it out. I'm going to make this work.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
And it seems like most women are aware that they
are in this. They are not unaware of it.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah right, Yeah, they're they're they're aware of it.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
And I started a trauma bond recovery community and it's
really inexpensive because I really want to democratize, like giving
women access to these resources. Aware of it, and they're
crying because they want to go back, knowing they shouldn't
go back, but still longing for this person.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
It's a real mind bend.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Mm.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, it's so interesting. It just sort of warps your
own psychology, It warps your own values, you know, or
what you thought, you know, I would I'll never stay
in something like this. Three years later like oh my god,
oh what am I doing? I can't get out right?
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Women come to me after twenty thirty forty seven.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Years forty seven years.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
And they finally got out.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah jails, No, no, I know, but like then it's
like now what holy shit?
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Yeah yeah, but and then some younger people come two
years yo, yes, sure you know, but.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, his abuse is physical abuse always part of this
trauma bonding. No, it's not, it's not.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
It's usually coercion, which is like pressuring somebody to do
what they don't want to do. So it's manipulation, gaslighting,
emotional abuse, verbal abuse, line right to somebody's face, financial abuse.
So in nineteen early nineteen seventies, physical abuse became a crime, right,
(36:56):
So then people got smarter because yeah, yeah, I just
got smarter.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, and I know that you work primarily with only
with women, but you know, because I'm a man, I
wonder you know how that role, how those roles can
be flipped and reversed, what kind of man it would
take to stay in something that toxic to where he
(37:24):
is experiencing that trauma?
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Brank, that's right.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
You have you messed around with that or looked at that?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Oh sure, yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
And I get so many direct messages from men to
that resonate with what I write.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
And again they're highly empathetic people that are very trusting
and I don't think there's evil in the world and
want to love, and I think from men it could
even be harder because it might be even more shame,
you know. But yeah, it happens to men too.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
I wonder if I wonder if I don't even know
this or not. But I was just thinking, like, you know,
just how the empowerment of women, feminism, how women now
are are taking control, you know, they've found their centers
and their power. Have we seen a decline in this
(38:15):
or has it sort of remained steady?
Speaker 4 (38:18):
You know, it's I think it's COVID.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Everything got accelerated, exacerbated.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Because okay, so you saw a spike because right, because
people are just forced to be together.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Right, So we know that there was a rise in
gymestic violence incidences due to COVID, So you would think
that it would be declining, and I think it is
to a point, but.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
It's just still so prevalent.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
You know, it's still so prevalent because it's not about
the woman being empowered, right, she stays, she doesn't stay
as long, but it's that was a pathological partner and
they don't care whether we're embowered or not.
Speaker 5 (39:05):
Mm hmmmm hm.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
You know yeah, so our empowerment isn't necessarily changing their
mindset and they're desired to have mind control.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Yeah, did your ex husband ever apologize to you?
Speaker 5 (39:17):
No?
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Not really, no, in fact no. Well that was one
of my last strong.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
Moments, was after he had that whole scene ensued where
I told him I asked to get sober and he
got violent.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
We were at sushi one night and I never forget it,
and I said, you know, all that stuff that happened
between us was really painful and horrible, and he was.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
Like, it wasn't that bad. And you know what, I
didn't know the word callousness. I never I was young,
but something inside me closed and I was like, that's it.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
It was a seminal moment for me.
Speaker 5 (39:53):
Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
What about later on?
Speaker 5 (39:57):
Though? Well?
Speaker 1 (39:57):
What about now? You know? I mean, you guys have
you guys have a relationship. I'm sure that's so we
do we do?
Speaker 4 (40:03):
You know?
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Later on?
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Not that you needed it, because it feels like you've
done your own shit, you know what I mean, Like
I don't need an apology from my dad who wasn't there,
and we have reconnected. You know, and things are things
are are great, and we've talked it out. I don't
need him to say that that he's so sorry because
I understand it. I've done the work and it's not
(40:28):
something that's going to make me whole in any way.
So not that you need it, but still the idea
that your ex husband would look inside, especially after sobriety,
and be like, holy fuck, I was a fucking nightmare
and I'm so sorry I put you through this.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
He has written it in letters, got it, Yeah, But
I don't know that we have like some deep in
depth conversation about it, but he definitely has written it
in letters.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And I just chose, you know.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
And one thing I can say about Jordan and I,
we put our kids first.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
You know, we're like we're gonna you know. I moved
after I left him.
Speaker 4 (41:06):
I moved to California, so I was living in New
York and then I moved to California with my My
current husband lived there and BOARDING came out two years
later to be with his kids. He lived in Manhattan
Beach too. Ironically, we both live in Florida, so we
follow each other around the country, I guess, but no,
we made a conscious decision to be to parent together.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Yeah, and that's great.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
And there was never contentious between your new husband and Jordan.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
No, they Oh my god, they get along so good.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
When I when I first met my current husband, he said,
you know, I think I'm going to take Jordan to breakfast.
I was like, what, don't do that. Don't do that,
and he said, I just want you to know who
I am because I'm going to be around your children.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Ever since then, they've just respected each other.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, he definitely likes John more than.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Me right now, since I started posting about him all
the time.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Oh, is he ever?
Speaker 4 (42:05):
Like?
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Is he ever?
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Like?
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Oh, he's like Dad, come on, babe, Like what the fuck?
Speaker 4 (42:10):
He's like, you tell your mother?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
She can't do that.
Speaker 4 (42:13):
I was like, tell you, Daddy wrote a book, he
made a movie. I can make a three minute TikTok.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah, good for you.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
So I think he's like he's okay with it now.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Well, it's all a beautiful story at the end. I mean,
it's healthy. You know, I'm glad to hear that everything
is is good. The kids are fucking good. You know
you've been through what you've been through. It's created this
incredible movement for you, and I'm sure you've helped a
ton of women. And what's next just to continue on
this path? Do you have anything coming up that's yeah,
(42:45):
just to.
Speaker 4 (42:46):
Continue on this path. And like I said, I sorted
this recovery community online. I wrote an online course for
my book that's in the community. What's next is first
of all, just to enjoy my grandkids, because.
Speaker 5 (42:59):
There's right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:01):
And just to reach more people. Yeah, you know, democratize
what I do through the course and community and reach
more people.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
I love that. I love that because you know, again
being in therapy, the truth of it is now you know,
there are these apps and better help, and you know,
these things that are coming out that are allowing people
who don't have a ton of money to actually seek help.
The problem with fucking therapies, it's so expensive and there
are so many people suffering, not just women who are
(43:29):
in these in these trauma bonding situations, but all across
the board. Will never be able to afford the help
that they need to get them better.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I know, I know. So that's why I made my
community and course totally.
Speaker 4 (43:44):
You know, very accessible, much to my husband, but charge
you that I'm like, because I really want to help people.
Speaker 5 (43:52):
Yeah, and it's great.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Because for fourteen ninety nine you could join the community.
Oh amazing, it's twenty nine ninety nine you can at
the course.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
So it's is there a website.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Or or how do you can just go to doctor
n A n A Okay, everything there And I have
so many free resources assessments. Amazing because this is I
guess what I was meant to do.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Yeah, that's so great. Well, I appreciate you coming on
and talking. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (44:22):
We got to do this.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I know, do you have do you have a do
you have a podcast? Or no?
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Okay, maybe that's next. I know there's a I know
there's ten billion of them, but like, maybe maybe that's next.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
Yeah. No, I think I'm good getting to meet you know,
wonderful people like you.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
I appreciate that. Thank you, all right, take care, take care,
I will, I will, I will, bye bye, cool cool, cool,
cool doing good things, doing good things. I feel like
I want to rewatch the movie now. You know, now
that I have spoken to her, ninety percent of it
(45:03):
is on point. I haven't seen it in a while either,
all right. I don't feel like doing any more talking,
so I'm gonna leave. And uh yeah, everyone just loved me.
I just need everyone to love me, all right.
Speaker 5 (45:17):
Peace,
Hi am Kate Hudson, and my name is Oliver Hudson.
We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationship and
what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Railvalry.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
No, no, sibling. You don't do that with your mouth, revelry.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
That's good. Falara Hudson here taking you down the Elbrick road.
Have another podcast which leads to OZ. What is OZ?
I don't know. I don't know. Maybe OZ is me.
(00:54):
Maybe I'm leading you down a road to myself. You're
so deep I can get sometimes when I just my
mind wander. I got a week left on this show
in Toronto. And if you've listened to understand that I'm here,
ready to get home, loving what I'm doing, loving the cast,
(01:14):
loving the movie, loving my son being in this movie.
But I'm ready to get home. I love you, Toronto.
But La is calling me. La is calling me. But
in the meantime, we are here, We're doing a show,
We're doing a podcast. I'm in my room as I
am as so unprofessional. Everyone else has these like incredible
(01:35):
setups with neon lights and signs and mics that sort
of float in the ether, and you know, here, I
am like super analog with a fucking white v neck
on horrible lighting in a room. But I guess that's
what makes it me. I'm not very flashy. But at
the same time, you know, once I get back to
(01:56):
La maybe I'll set something up really dope. But we're
on the fly, baby, We're on the go. Anyway. I'm
not going to spend too much time talking about myself
because we have doctor Nadine, doctor Nay in the waiting
room doing awesome work involving toxic relationships. But you know,
(02:19):
I'm pretty sure she she came to it late too.
I think she got her PhD pretty late in life.
I think obviously her character, she was the inspiration for
Wolf of Wall Street, Margot Robbie's character bell Ford Naomi Bellford. Well,
(02:40):
without further let's bring her on.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
How are you?
Speaker 2 (02:47):
I'm really good? Thank you?
Speaker 5 (02:49):
Are you good?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Where are you?
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I'm in Pocaton, Florida.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Oh nice, You're in the warm. I'm in the freezing cold.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
I know you feeling right?
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Yeah, I'm doing a fun movie for Netflix. And I
got about a week left and then and then home
good and then home and I can't wait. I can't
wait to be home.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
There's no place like home.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
No, I know, I know. Let's start where you are now, okay,
and then we can go back. But you know your patients.
Let's talk about your patients. Let's talk about what you do.
Let's talk about what you specialize in, because I'm sure
you could probably help me. So give us a little
rundown of sort of your situation, the kind of people
(03:35):
that you're helping. And then also, didn't you come to
this a little later in life?
Speaker 4 (03:38):
Yeah? Yeah, I didn't go back to school till I
was thirty nine and got my master's and then got
my doctorate. Yeah, I definitely came to this later in life.
I'm a late bloomer for sure.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
And I love what I do though, So I just
love it.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I help women every single day recognize, heal, and escape
from trauma bonds.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
Relationship.
Speaker 4 (04:02):
I get women now thanks to Zoom, I get women
from all over the world.
Speaker 5 (04:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
So trauma bond, you know, explain for those of us
who might not know what that is, you know, explain that.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
Yeah, so a trauma bond does any toxic, dysfunctional connection
between two emotionally attached people, right, It could be between
parents a child.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
It could be between Boston employee.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
It could be between friends, but the way I write
about it is between mothers. But what makes it pathological
is that one of the partners wants power and control
over the other partner.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
And do you find that it usually goes man wants
the power over the woman.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
I think you could be seventy five, twenty five. I
think there's definitely women that want power over their men,
you know, and do it, and so in that relationship,
you usually that person wants control.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
So they will. So this is the way I say it.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
The pathological partner, right will lie, arm, exploit, and betray
their lover to get their needs met for money, power, pleasure,
and status.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
It's that simple, Okay, whoa, It's simple, but there's all
kinds of different caveats and avenues as to how they
might achieve that.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
Correct correct, correct. So yeah, So what happens in the
beginning of a trauma bond is that this pathological person
I call them Romeo, they come in and they're charming
and kind and warm and generous and like so adoring
and so that you fall in love because you're like,
(05:47):
oh my god, I'm at a unicorn. This person is awesome,
they meet all my needs, are obsessed with me. But
then over time the mask falls and you get to
meet dirty John.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Do you think that this is a premeditated, calculated situation
or does it just happen? Are you with a narcissist
who might have good intentions at first, but they can't
get away from probably and potentially their own trauma which
(06:21):
has led them to be who they are.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, I think it can go both ways. I think
that sometimes they do.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Unconsciously believe that they believe they want to love, but
they're just so self centered. But I think a lot
of the times it really is calculated and premeditated. And
I'll tell you why, because they can act totally differently
when they want, and then the second they're alone with
(06:52):
their lover, that's when they get controlling and cruel and
they lie right to their face. But then they have
to go out to dinner and they're just back to
their Romeo cells.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, and it seems to be it seems like these
people may lack empathy, yes right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:13):
Yeah, they definitely lack empathy. They definitely lack remorse and compassion.
Because think about it, if you're just a tool on
their tool belt. They can't see you as a person
and have empathy.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Yeah, it's so interesting because you know, obviously narcissism, there's
degrees of it. I'm sure. Yeah, sometimes I question whether
I have some sort of narcissism. I mean, do we
all have a little bit of it? Is there sort
of some self preservation in being a narcissist?
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Yeah, like we all. I mean, healthy narcissism is okay,
I mean healthy self esteem are esteem based upon like
your actual accomplishments or what you are.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Really capable love.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
But like a narcissist is much more entitled and grandiose,
and they're exploitative.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
So you can, like, you can be.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Selfish sometimes that's normal, Like sometimes you know, self care
is selfish, Like it's okay, selfish, But this is like
an extreme. This is a pattern of it continually where
you're exploiting people, using people, and harming people to get
your needs met.
Speaker 5 (08:26):
Mm hmm gosh.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And then the bond comes from the flip side of that, right,
So it's it's the like you you know, I think
I think you talked about how in your past and
sort of what led you down the path that you
are on right now is your relationship and how it
would be complete, total and utter devastating dog shit and
then you would come into your apartment and there'd be
(08:51):
a billion roses.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
That's right, that's right.
Speaker 4 (08:53):
And that's what creates the bond, is that intermittent reinforcement
where you know, extreme acts of generosity and kindness but
mixed with extreme cruelty. And that's what creates the bond,
which seems counter intuitive, but it actually does because you're
always hoping for Romeo and that kindness and generosity to
(09:17):
come back, so you tolerate, as you say, the dog
shit times.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Do you think that, you know, there is a certain
kind of a person who is more susceptible to sort
of being taken advantage of that way, you know, who
has They're more susceptible to having that trauma bond, you know.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Yeah, I have two thoughts about that.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
So, first of all, everybody can be.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Conned by a con artist.
Speaker 4 (09:49):
Yeah, right, If a con artist is really good and
they want to manipulate you, they're going to do it.
They're going to read you, they're going to figure out
ways to manipulate you. But if if you are a
very trusting person, like I was strong and naive, and
I just thought everybody was like me. I was like, oh,
I could trust this person. They have the same intentions
(10:10):
that I have. If you are a very trusting person
and you are agreeable and loyal and tolerant, and you
fall in love with a pathological person, you're in trouble.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
And how long did you actually stay in it?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
For eight years?
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Eight years? And at what point did you know? Because
you are a highly intellectual person, you are most likely
very evolved, maybe more so now than then. But was
there a moment where you're like, wait a minute, like
this is so fucked. I am I shouldn't be here.
(10:48):
I'm smarter than this, but I can't. I can't.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Oh, there were so many moments like that. I mean,
that's the whole thing that you feel in the relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
You're like, what am I doing?
Speaker 4 (11:00):
I'm going again myself here to stay connected to this
person in this relationship. And my ex's drug addiction was
so insane that I was really always focused on that
and trying to figure out ways for him to be sober,
which didn't work very well. But it really started for
me right in the beginning, because when I first met him.
(11:23):
He was like, if you don't, if you don't marry me,
if you're not going to tell me we're going to
marry me, I'm not going to date you. And I
was like, what, I'm twenty three. I don't want to
get married, Like the goalpost was always moving. And then
if you don't, if you don't, if you're not gonna
have kids, and I'm not going to marry you. And
I was like, what's happening? But I just was rationalized
(11:46):
and I was like, oh my god, he just loves
me so much.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
What does your parents say about all this?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Oh my god.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
My mother took me to lunch and she was British
and she was like, you know, you don't have to
do this. And I was like, my mom, I love
him so much and she just was like okay.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Yeah, And what about your dad. I don't know what
your relationship with your parents.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
My dad was a gambling I mean as a gambling addict,
so he was excited because you knew he'd have access
to a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
So he was like, go for it, go for it.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Not to be too analytical, because I've been in therapy
for fucking twenty four years, I've been to the Hoffsman process,
like I am. Oh yeah, so yeah, I have and
I continue to try to do it, although I should
probably get back into therapy. It's funny because I was
in the car ride to work today and I'm thinking, man,
you know, it's been a minute since I've been in therapy.
And I'm an advocate for it, meaning not just when
(12:45):
you are, you know, feeling bad about yourself or you
have something you need to get through. There's it's more
of just sort of a checkup that one should do
if they have the means every week?
Speaker 5 (12:57):
Why not?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
And I'm like, man, why have I I you know,
why am I not in therapy right now?
Speaker 2 (13:03):
You know?
Speaker 5 (13:04):
Why am I not doing this?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Yeah? So gambler, that's right, probably some sort of a hustler.
If you're a gambler. I like to gamble. You know,
I have my vices. I consider myself a lowercase a addict,
and I don't even in many different things. You know, Yes, yes,
I like that, So I can kind of understand that idea.
Is there a part of that, you know, that attraction essentially,
(13:31):
like this is my father and this is what I want.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Yeah, I think that.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
You know, my dad wasn't that much in my life.
He was like, I work a real Disneyland.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
Dad like literally came and took me to Disney and
then I didn't see him that often. Of course, in retrospect,
when you think about it, the stock market is just
legal gambling. Yeah, right, So there is that risk taking,
living on the edge variance to it.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
And for me, you know, my was I grew up
with a.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Who was in the seventies reading young in Freud.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
And like study wowology. So we were always talking about
our feelings. And my family was very psychological and I
was in a really calm, peaceful household.
Speaker 2 (14:13):
So when I first met my ex husband and he's
like raging at me and so angry, I'm like, what
the I'm like, what's happening? I really didn't know what
to do.
Speaker 4 (14:23):
Now, I am from Brooklyn, so I went back, but
I was no match for him.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah, but what was the allure? I guess you know
what I mean? Was it the money and the fun
and the sure Yeah?
Speaker 4 (14:36):
I mean I was modeling in New York City in
the eighties and nineties. My gosh, okay, he was listen.
I was twenty two I was twenty three, he was
twenty eight. We didn't have a big age difference. I'm
from Brooklyn, he's from Queens. He's charming, he's handsome, he's
very bright, and.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
It was easy to fall in love with him.
Speaker 4 (15:00):
But then as the Romeo mask fell and I got
to see this other side of him. That's what happens
in the trauma Bot. I'm like, what the hell is happening?
Mm hmm, heay, where's the guy I fell in love with?
And I had no point of reference, but the way
he bathed not that many people would have to see
the movie right right, you know, it's pretty out of control.
(15:20):
And I think, and I put what happened is I
put myself write into therapy at twenty three.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Oh wow, I can't handle this life.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Sign lived in a ten thousand square foot house before
and had help, and then I couldn't manage him. So
I believe therapy saved my life. Yeah, and that's why
I became a therapist.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
When did that mask fall? You know? I mean, how
long was it? How long was that beautiful mask on
before I started to melt off?
Speaker 4 (15:55):
I was really only on for six months?
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Oh shit?
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Yeah, because six months later we got engaged, and six
months later we got married.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
So now I'm in it.
Speaker 5 (16:06):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Yeah, And that's why trauma bonds often can be. They're
like fast and furious and super intense.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Was there ever, were there moments where You're like, I'm
fucking out of here?
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Oh yeah, like when he ripped the phone out of
the wall. I wouldn't I didn't want to have kids
right away.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
But then, just like a typical trauma bonds, you know,
I laugh about this, we'd have a fight and then
there'd be a horse in my driveway.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
Mm hmm make up with me. I'd like, Okay, I
guess we could work this out.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
And you know, I'm being raised by a single mother
in Brooklyn. You know, we didn't have a lot of money,
and so then to come into all this money.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Of course, that was a loureene.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
And fought mm hmmm mm hmmm.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
Yeah, So so that was a that was a big
but there was a lot of strings with that.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. And then of course the infidel
he starts and everything starts, and then you're just it
seems like you just get wrapped up in this tornado. Yeah,
and that funnel is just spinning you around. Even though
you can get an arm out and you're trying to,
you know, sort of crawl your way out of this cyclone,
it's near impossible. It's just it's spinning too fast.
Speaker 4 (17:19):
And the thing with him too, is that, you know,
in the movie they depicts you know that he was
that I was very jealous and he was cheating on me,
which I'm sure he was cheating on me. But the
interesting part is we never had a fight about a woman.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
Really. Yeah, but he wrote why is that like that?
Speaker 2 (17:37):
I never knew.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
He wrote the book like that and made the movie
like that. But so that's just so interesting. We really
thought about the drugs all the time.
Speaker 5 (17:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:49):
And did you find yourself, because you seem like a
pretty grounded, compassionate person, did you find yourself having compassion
for this man as well?
Speaker 2 (17:58):
So much?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Right? I mean, I would I would assume that part
of the trauma bond is the one who is experiencing
that trauma is also experiencing at the same time, real
genuine compassion for this person who's out of control. So
they're almost praying on you know, yes, your softness completely completely.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
I had so much empathy for him and that's exactly
what they do. He's weaponizing my empathy, right, because of
course I felt scared for him. You know when you
go to dinner with your husband and all of a
sudden you get yourself. You go to dinner and you
don't see him pop ten kailouts, and then you sit
down to dinner and he's like, oh, how's a second?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
You know what happens? And you have to make a
bread pillow for his face because.
Speaker 4 (18:48):
Right, yeah, it's just like who would want to do
that to themselves?
Speaker 5 (18:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, and you never got caught up in that world?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
No, I would take one.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
Yeah, I just I don't know.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
I've never had that crazy desire to escape that myself
that much.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
You know, I could have like a balanced sense of
fun for my monies.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, but no, And when was that moment where you
sort of found the strength to just be like, I'm out.
Once he got once he got dinged, Well, what happened.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Was that he was the coke turns in. I mean
the Creilutes turned into coke.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
And I say, he was cooking crack in my country
kitchen and I was little babies upstairs, and I'm.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
Like, okay, this is done. This is done.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
I said to him, I'm not going to sit here
and want you kill yourself like all your friends do.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Said you have to go to rehab or I'm leaving,
and that's crazy.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
Do all my clothing and jewely into the fireplace and
let them on fire. And was like, you're not leaving
and I'm not getting it's over and you're not going
to tell me what's due.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
And I just went to my closet and said, God
give me the strength to do this.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Did you did?
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
And I did.
Speaker 4 (20:04):
And that's where the movie you see where he gets
violent with me. It's because I confronted him about that,
and you see when he drives my daughter, and so
that was that moment. But I actually jumped in the
car and put had my husband put the garage doory
down to where everybody was fine.
Speaker 2 (20:20):
And then he did get sober.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
He did, he did, he went, Yeah, I was almost
all got killed, but he did get sober and then
he came back. But emotionally I was done. You were Yeah,
and he got arrested. It's like, okay, your ankle wascelet.
Now is my freedom?
Speaker 5 (20:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Because the power and balance shifted.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, exactly, interesting, right, you took the throne essentially.
Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Yeah, he just couldn't have power over me anymore, so
like I'm done.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I'm out.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Was that just so liberating?
Speaker 2 (21:03):
You have no idea?
Speaker 5 (21:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (21:04):
I mean you could take a big, deep breath. It
feels like.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Yeah, I always I did a post about this with
Tom Cruise in Risky Business when he's on the couch
dancing when his parents leave.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
Mm hmmmm.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
It is unwear.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Yeah, yeah, that's how I felt.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
And how old were your kids when you actually left
it were three and five? Okay, so they were little,
so there's not a ton of recollection.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
No, No, I mean, you know, my kids have a
great relationship with their dad. My son's here, my daughter's
a therapist. Yeah, they have a great relationship with their dad.
And they're clothes. I went to the premiere of the movie.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Yeah, you know, I would never keep my kids.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Yeah, as long as I know that they're safe and
he's sober and he's being a good dad.
Speaker 5 (21:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
And at what point, and then I want to get
into sort of how this propelled you into what you do.
Let's just do that now, actually, because then I'll go
back to sort of your current relationship with your ex husband,
which I'm assuming it's okay right at this point. Yeah,
And I would assume right now that you would not
change a fucking thing in your life because of where
(22:19):
you are now and what it has given you and
how many people you're actually helping.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
Yeah, you know, I wish.
Speaker 2 (22:26):
I wish I could say I had like some big
grand scheme that I think that all this was going
to happen.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
It should have been so obvious to me, but it
really wasn't. And so I got license, and what was
happening was that.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
The movie came out.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
When I got my doctor It was when the when
the movie came out, I got my master's.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
No, I got my doctorate.
Speaker 1 (22:49):
Were you consulted on the movie?
Speaker 4 (22:50):
I was not consulted because he wrote a book first.
So the only thing was that I got to meet Margo.
She wanted my accent and I took her to dinner,
and and that was really it. No, it's story, his narrative.
He makes all the money.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, and that's okay, that's fine, whatever, But what percentage
If you're going to look at that movie and give
a percentage of what's real and what's not real, what.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Would you say ninety percent is real?
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Is it? Oh? Great?
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Oh yeah?
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Wow yeah? Wow wow. What about the famous Leos scene
when he's crawling to the car.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
That's that's real.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Holy shit, that's real.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
That's real.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
I mean I wasn't there because I was waiting the
house and then the car the house. The car came
back crashed and I didn't know because I put it
up bed. And then the police knocked on the door
and I was like, well, they're like, yeah, into an accident.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
No, it's all real.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yeah, okay, So you got certified and then you decided
to become your therapist. How did you find your clientele
or did they find you?
Speaker 4 (23:56):
They think they so so that people started just to
come to because I'm a good therapist. And then once
I started to really focus on helping women, now it's
just like like wildfire because the very thing I worried about.
I'm like, who the hell is going to want to
come to make the therapy after they see this movie
made happen.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
But then the opposite happens.
Speaker 4 (24:20):
Everybody was like, wait, I won't come to you because
you walk your talk like you were listen you came
out here. Yeah, And so it all just worked out.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
No, I was about to I was about to say that,
because again, I've been in therapy for a million years now.
I don't know the backstory of all my therapists. Oh,
there's only a couple, but but I haven't I have
enough of one, because yes, I am the patient. But
at some at some point, I'm always asking them about
their lives and They're like, Oliver, this is about you.
I'm like, I don't care, Like what what's your deal?
Speaker 5 (24:51):
Like?
Speaker 1 (24:52):
How do you handle these things? So I'm always digging.
But most likely most they're therapists who are, you know,
giving you professional advice, are doing so through school and
not necessarily life experience. You know, I would rather be
(25:13):
with somebody who has lived it as well, especially when
you are in your lane. You know, it's very specific.
So if I'm going to go see someone, it's like, oh,
I want to see this woman who has experienced everything
that I am now, who has not just you know,
a degree, but actual street smarts, you know what I'm saying.
So I'm sure that that's alluring, beyond alluring. And you
(25:38):
might and you probably have a way different perspective than
a lot of other therapists.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Yeah, and you know, a lot of times therapists will
really retraumatize women that are in abusive relationships, be like,
are you sure that's really happening. Maybe you're exaggerating, you're
being over reactive, And so I believe them.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
You know it's real.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
And I know a lot of people can wear a
mask of sanity and drive you crazy at home, and
so they know I believe them. I have so much
empathy for them, And my husband goes, I know all
your patients are beautiful.
Speaker 2 (26:10):
Help what they are, and I.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
Love them, you know, I genuinely love them, and they
know that I'm on their side.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Do you find sometimes with patients, though, that they are
maybe projecting something that is sort of a false narrative
or something that they have concocted, and that you have
to sort of take them out of that to get
to the real shit.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
You know, with this sort of scenario, not that much.
And actually they might not even come in and tell
me everything because they're so embarrassed. In regular therapy, for sure,
you know that that happens, but in this therapy sometimes
they're just so embarrassed for tolerating it and going back,
(26:54):
and you know, it takes four to seven attempts for
a woman to leave this sort of relationship.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Wow, is part of this kind of therapy going back
into their lives and understanding why they are this way?
Or is it more focused on the current situation?
Speaker 4 (27:18):
Yeah, mores, more focus on the current I say, we
are in the emotional emergency room doing emotional triage work
because they're almost all in crisis. They're in fear, they
have kids, they got divorce attorneys, they got crazy stuff.
They're getting stalked, their phones are getting time. I mean,
there's just all sort of crazy stuffs. So sometimes if
(27:40):
we've once we've gotten through the crisis, we might go back,
of course, you know, but usually it's real.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Like okay, yeah, yeah, it's interesting because you do again
you have to deal with the situations at hand. Yes,
And I can only speak from just sort of standard
therapy or cognitive behavior therapy anyway. Yeah, but then once
you dig deeper, you understand sort of why you were
(28:09):
even in this situation. Right, Because I'm assuming and you
can correct me if I'm wrong, that not all women
are some men are susceptible to these things. There are,
it's you.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Know, some are more than others.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Some are more than others, more than others.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
And I break it down in my book like why
certain personality traits lead you? But I but what I
say is that anybody and everybody can really be fooled
by a con artists now at my age.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
But no, right, yeah, exactly. That's a good point actually,
you know, like life experience of course. Yeah, yeah, when
when when you're when you're twenty two and you're getting
your preyed upon, you're way more susceptible than if you're
in your fifties, right.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Exactly, exactly, So I think age has a bit to
do with it too, And also like how evolved is
the person?
Speaker 2 (29:02):
Are they self aware? Have they been interested in psychology?
Speaker 5 (29:05):
If not?
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Yeah? And what was your relationship? What was your first relationship?
Like after that?
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Oh god, it's so much fun. I was dating everybody.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Oh you were, oh good, so you had a great time.
I was like.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Thirty two in a ball, I stated, Michael balt It, yeah,
like so many people. And then somebody said to me, Hey,
I have this guy I want you to go on
a blind date with. And I said, oh my god,
I've never gone on a blind date. I said, I'll
go out with anybody once? How bad could it be?
And now at hease my husband, it's.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
One amazing, that's awesome. But when you were starting to
date again, were you purposefully trying to just keep it,
you know, pretty surface, because you're like, yeah, because you
had was there? Was there PTSD involved? Was was there
that kind of you know? So yeah, how did how
were you able to sort of get through that to
(30:03):
then have a healthy twenty five year relationship. Yeah?
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Well, like you know, you mentioned how you went to
like the Hoffmann Institute. After I left my ex, I
went to a place called the Karen Foundation, and they
have a program there called Breakthrough, which is like a
five day program for people who want to learn how
to set boundaries, learn how to say no, I want
to go back to the family of origin, learn about themselves.
So I did that because I was like, there's no
(30:28):
way in.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Hell I want to go through that again. Terrified to
go through that again.
Speaker 4 (30:34):
So I checked myself and there so that between all
the years of therapy and that.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I felt like, Okay, I think I can trust myself.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
You know, that's interesting, It's funny you say that. You
said trust yourself, not trust someone else, right, right, Because
that's really what it's.
Speaker 4 (30:51):
About, exactly one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah, because you I mean, at the end of the day,
hopefully we all find trustworthy people lives, but we have
no control over what that other individual does. That's it,
And there's something liberating about that if you can really
get down to that feeling of well, I can't control you.
(31:15):
I can't control what you're going to fucking do. And
if I'm going to sort of be all over my
head about what you might do, I'm only causing myself
pain that hasn't even happened yet, you know. I mean,
I've been married for eighteen years, together for twenty three
or twenty four, you know, Yeah, thank you. We've been
(31:35):
through our shit, there's no doubt about it. I mean,
big time stuff, you know, and with my wife, and
she's had to sort of in her mind sort of
go through these scenarios and situations where she has to
let it all go because nothing is certain. Nothing is certain,
(31:58):
So let's just exists today and make the best of
the day and not ruminate and catastrophize. Yes, you know,
because that's only causes harm.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
So well said, so well said, right, Because the scariest
thick things live in our mind, right, but when we
could be present, focused in the here and now and
just say to us like, oh, I'm safe, this is
good right now, I'm going to take it.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
M hmm yeah yeah, so run like hell is that
your Is that your first book?
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (32:30):
It's my first and maybe.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
Oh really, I don't want to do another one.
Speaker 4 (32:35):
Oh. I mean, of course, I'm the only like idiot
that wrote a book before AI, right like finished. Yeah,
it was so hard because you're writing about part stuff.
I take four clinical I take four couples that are
trauma bonded, and I leave all their stories about all
the clinical material to life.
Speaker 1 (32:56):
Oh cool.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
Yeah, so it was really hard. Honestly, I don't even
know who wrote it. I read I'm like, I wrote this,
but I'm so glad I did it because it's helping
so many people.
Speaker 1 (33:07):
I think that's a great a great way to do
it because it's and I haven't read it yet, but
it seems like there's a narrative aspect to it rather
than just sort of a dry sort of book on
psychology or exactly.
Speaker 5 (33:22):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
And so what happened is that, you know, I sit
in my office and I hear all these insane stories
and narratives and experiences, so I just wove them into
all different characters the names, and let them come to
life all different ages, so different people can relate to it.
And then, like you say, it's a narrative, and then
(33:44):
people can really see themselves in the stories.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Mm hmm, yeah, exactly. There's a relatability there for sure. Yes, yes,
so you talked about you just sort of graised over it.
But just the sort of the kinds of people who
might be more susceptible or less susceptible, is that actually
categorized or there?
Speaker 4 (34:05):
Yeah? Yes, yeah. So in twenty nineteen, I read a
great book called Women Who Love Psychopaths. There was great
research in there, and there's I don't know if you've
ever taken this test, but I can send it to you.
It's the five factor model of personality tests openness to experience, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness,
(34:27):
and eroticism. I give it to all my patients, and
the research showed that women that scored very high in
agreeableness and conscientiousness were perfect prey. The reason that you said,
those good qualities get weaponized.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yes, who scores very high in.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Both conscientiousness too.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Yeah, conscientiousness, like meaning, that's how I got my PhD.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Because I'm organized and diligent and I'm driven, and I'm like,
I'm going to get it done.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Great, but not when you're in a toxic relationship. Yeah,
you're like, I'm going to stay, I'm going to figure
it out. I'm going to make this work.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
And it seems like most women are aware that they
are in this. They are not unaware of it.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Yeah right, Yeah, they're they're they're aware of it.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
And I started a trauma bond recovery community and it's
really inexpensive because I really want to democratize, like giving
women access to these resources. Aware of it, and they're
crying because they want to go back, knowing they shouldn't
go back, but still longing for this person.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
It's a real mind bend.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Mm.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, it's so interesting. It just sort of warps your
own psychology, It warps your own values, you know, or
what you thought, you know, I would I'll never stay
in something like this. Three years later like oh my god,
oh what am I doing? I can't get out right?
Speaker 4 (36:03):
Women come to me after twenty thirty forty seven.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Years forty seven years.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
And they finally got out.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah jails, No, no, I know, but like then it's
like now what holy shit?
Speaker 4 (36:21):
Yeah yeah, but and then some younger people come two
years yo, yes, sure you know, but.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, his abuse is physical abuse always part of this
trauma bonding. No, it's not, it's not.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
It's usually coercion, which is like pressuring somebody to do
what they don't want to do. So it's manipulation, gaslighting,
emotional abuse, verbal abuse, line right to somebody's face, financial abuse.
So in nineteen early nineteen seventies, physical abuse became a crime, right,
(36:56):
So then people got smarter because yeah, yeah, I just
got smarter.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Yeah, and I know that you work primarily with only
with women, but you know, because I'm a man, I
wonder you know how that role, how those roles can
be flipped and reversed, what kind of man it would
take to stay in something that toxic to where he
(37:24):
is experiencing that trauma?
Speaker 2 (37:25):
Brank, that's right.
Speaker 1 (37:27):
You have you messed around with that or looked at that?
Speaker 2 (37:30):
Oh sure, yeah.
Speaker 4 (37:30):
And I get so many direct messages from men to
that resonate with what I write.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
And again they're highly empathetic people that are very trusting
and I don't think there's evil in the world and
want to love, and I think from men it could
even be harder because it might be even more shame,
you know. But yeah, it happens to men too.
Speaker 1 (37:54):
I wonder if I wonder if I don't even know
this or not. But I was just thinking, like, you know,
just how the empowerment of women, feminism, how women now
are are taking control, you know, they've found their centers
and their power. Have we seen a decline in this
(38:15):
or has it sort of remained steady?
Speaker 4 (38:18):
You know, it's I think it's COVID.
Speaker 2 (38:23):
Everything got accelerated, exacerbated.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Because okay, so you saw a spike because right, because
people are just forced to be together.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
Right, So we know that there was a rise in
gymestic violence incidences due to COVID, So you would think
that it would be declining, and I think it is
to a point, but.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
It's just still so prevalent.
Speaker 4 (38:51):
You know, it's still so prevalent because it's not about
the woman being empowered, right, she stays, she doesn't stay
as long, but it's that was a pathological partner and
they don't care whether we're embowered or not.
Speaker 5 (39:05):
Mm hmmmm hm.
Speaker 4 (39:07):
You know yeah, so our empowerment isn't necessarily changing their
mindset and they're desired to have mind control.
Speaker 1 (39:13):
Yeah, did your ex husband ever apologize to you?
Speaker 5 (39:17):
No?
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Not really, no, in fact no. Well that was one
of my last strong.
Speaker 4 (39:21):
Moments, was after he had that whole scene ensued where
I told him I asked to get sober and he
got violent.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
We were at sushi one night and I never forget it,
and I said, you know, all that stuff that happened
between us was really painful and horrible, and he was.
Speaker 4 (39:36):
Like, it wasn't that bad. And you know what, I
didn't know the word callousness. I never I was young,
but something inside me closed and I was like, that's it.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
It was a seminal moment for me.
Speaker 5 (39:53):
Yeah. Wow.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
What about later on?
Speaker 5 (39:57):
Though? Well?
Speaker 1 (39:57):
What about now? You know? I mean, you guys have
you guys have a relationship. I'm sure that's so we
do we do?
Speaker 4 (40:03):
You know?
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Later on?
Speaker 1 (40:05):
Not that you needed it, because it feels like you've
done your own shit, you know what I mean, Like
I don't need an apology from my dad who wasn't there,
and we have reconnected. You know, and things are things
are are great, and we've talked it out. I don't
need him to say that that he's so sorry because
I understand it. I've done the work and it's not
(40:28):
something that's going to make me whole in any way.
So not that you need it, but still the idea
that your ex husband would look inside, especially after sobriety,
and be like, holy fuck, I was a fucking nightmare
and I'm so sorry I put you through this.
Speaker 4 (40:43):
He has written it in letters, got it, Yeah, But
I don't know that we have like some deep in
depth conversation about it, but he definitely has written it
in letters.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
And I just chose, you know.
Speaker 4 (40:57):
And one thing I can say about Jordan and I,
we put our kids first.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
You know, we're like we're gonna you know. I moved
after I left him.
Speaker 4 (41:06):
I moved to California, so I was living in New
York and then I moved to California with my My
current husband lived there and BOARDING came out two years
later to be with his kids. He lived in Manhattan
Beach too. Ironically, we both live in Florida, so we
follow each other around the country, I guess, but no,
we made a conscious decision to be to parent together.
Speaker 1 (41:28):
Yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
Yeah, and that's great.
Speaker 1 (41:31):
And there was never contentious between your new husband and Jordan.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
No, they Oh my god, they get along so good.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
When I when I first met my current husband, he said,
you know, I think I'm going to take Jordan to breakfast.
I was like, what, don't do that. Don't do that,
and he said, I just want you to know who
I am because I'm going to be around your children.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Ever since then, they've just respected each other.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Beautiful.
Speaker 2 (41:57):
Yeah, he definitely likes John more than.
Speaker 4 (41:59):
Me right now, since I started posting about him all
the time.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
Oh, is he ever?
Speaker 4 (42:05):
Like?
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Is he ever?
Speaker 3 (42:06):
Like?
Speaker 1 (42:07):
Oh, he's like Dad, come on, babe, Like what the fuck?
Speaker 4 (42:10):
He's like, you tell your mother?
Speaker 2 (42:12):
She can't do that.
Speaker 4 (42:13):
I was like, tell you, Daddy wrote a book, he
made a movie. I can make a three minute TikTok.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Yeah, good for you.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (42:21):
So I think he's like he's okay with it now.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
Well, it's all a beautiful story at the end. I mean,
it's healthy. You know, I'm glad to hear that everything
is is good. The kids are fucking good. You know
you've been through what you've been through. It's created this
incredible movement for you, and I'm sure you've helped a
ton of women. And what's next just to continue on
this path? Do you have anything coming up that's yeah,
(42:45):
just to.
Speaker 4 (42:46):
Continue on this path. And like I said, I sorted
this recovery community online. I wrote an online course for
my book that's in the community. What's next is first
of all, just to enjoy my grandkids, because.
Speaker 5 (42:59):
There's right, Yeah.
Speaker 4 (43:01):
And just to reach more people. Yeah, you know, democratize
what I do through the course and community and reach
more people.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
I love that. I love that because you know, again
being in therapy, the truth of it is now you know,
there are these apps and better help, and you know,
these things that are coming out that are allowing people
who don't have a ton of money to actually seek help.
The problem with fucking therapies, it's so expensive and there
are so many people suffering, not just women who are
(43:29):
in these in these trauma bonding situations, but all across
the board. Will never be able to afford the help
that they need to get them better.
Speaker 2 (43:38):
I know, I know. So that's why I made my
community and course totally.
Speaker 4 (43:44):
You know, very accessible, much to my husband, but charge
you that I'm like, because I really want to help people.
Speaker 5 (43:52):
Yeah, and it's great.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Because for fourteen ninety nine you could join the community.
Oh amazing, it's twenty nine ninety nine you can at
the course.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
So it's is there a website.
Speaker 4 (44:02):
Or or how do you can just go to doctor
n A n A Okay, everything there And I have
so many free resources assessments. Amazing because this is I
guess what I was meant to do.
Speaker 1 (44:15):
Yeah, that's so great. Well, I appreciate you coming on
and talking. Thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (44:22):
We got to do this.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
I know, do you have do you have a do
you have a podcast? Or no?
Speaker 2 (44:26):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
Okay, maybe that's next. I know there's a I know
there's ten billion of them, but like, maybe maybe that's next.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
Yeah. No, I think I'm good getting to meet you know,
wonderful people like you.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
I appreciate that. Thank you, all right, take care, take care,
I will, I will, I will, bye bye, cool cool, cool,
cool doing good things, doing good things. I feel like
I want to rewatch the movie now. You know, now
that I have spoken to her, ninety percent of it
(45:03):
is on point. I haven't seen it in a while either,
all right. I don't feel like doing any more talking,
so I'm gonna leave. And uh yeah, everyone just loved me.
I just need everyone to love me, all right.
Speaker 5 (45:17):
Peace,
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Oliver Hudson
Kate Hudson
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