March 26, 2024 • 43 mins
This week we are welcoming inspiring actress and LGBTQ advocate Laverne Cox. In this honest and thought-provoking episode, Laverne shares her journey to becoming the first transgender woman nominated for a Primetime Emmy. She and Kevin then welcome guest Chase Strangio, Deputy Director for Transgender Justice at the ACLU as he shares the urgent issues facing trans rights and how people get help to protect them.
To learn more and get involved with the ACLU and their fight for trans rights, head to ACLU.org. To support more initiatives like this programs, head to 'BACON' to 707070 or head to SixDegrees.org to learn more.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody. Today's guest has honestly made history, first by
making a mark in the award winning TV show Orange
Is a New Black, before building a career that spans
film and TV and music and so much more. Laverne
Cox is an inspirational figure for so many people, and
I'm so glad to have her on the show today.
(00:21):
Her story will blow you away, So lean in. I'm
glad you well. I am here today extremely excited to
welcome our guest, Laverne Cox. Laverne, it's so great. Have
(00:43):
we ever have our paths crossed? I feel like we
must have met someplace. I know we haven't worked in
anything together, but.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I think I would remember meeting the legendary Kevin Bacon.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I think I would remember meeting the legendary Laverne.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
We've never met. It's so funny.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I was in I was in La over the weekend
and Footloose was on TV with I know, and and
then Flash Dance came on and I just like, I'm
fifty one years old, so like my entire like elementary school,
like life, like flash before my eyes, and like it
(01:23):
was such it was such a moment. I know you've
done many things since Footloose, but that is how I
discovered you, and it.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Was just a lovely nostalgic moment that I had just
had just a few days ago.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Oh that's awesome. Yeah, well let me tell you.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Maybe I have to watch it.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
The scary thing is it's the fortieth anniversary this year.
I'm not quite sure how to process that yet. But
in twenty twenty four, it'll be the fortieth anniversary of
making that movie. And you mentioned the Flash Dance, which
I believe came out either the year before or around
the same time.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
It's a year before.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, it was a year before, right, And funny side
story is that I had a I had a dance
double in the in the movie as well as as
well as and so did Jennifer Peele and they there
the two doubles got married.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Oh my god, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Isn't that crazy story? That's yeah, I'm not sure it lasted,
but I know that they were married for a while.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
That's amazing. God.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Flash Dance with My Life got Footlooths was so just
be nostalgia, the memories. Anyway, Well, it's so nice.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
It's so nice to meet you, so nice to have
you here especially, uh, fantastic knowing that you liked that movie,
so thank you for that. Of course, I'm so speaking
about going going back. I know you probably hear this
a lot, but tell me about your your your journey
into this specifically into this profession, and what it was
(02:57):
that brought you to our screen.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Oh my, you know. I it's been a long journey.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
But I started out so when I when I was
a kid, I grew up in Mobile, Alabama, and when
I started walking, I started dancing and I always had
and so I was a dancer as a kid. So
footloose and flash dance were touchstones, as was fame for me,
and so I was. And so from about the age
of five years old till third grade, I begged my
(03:28):
mother to put me into dance classes, and finally, when
I was in third grade, I started studying tap in jazz. Mobil,
Alabama was not the best place for me to grow up.
I was bullied as a kid. I was you know,
beaten up and chased home from school every day because
I was this very fim child and I was assigned
male at birth.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
And so when I would dance, I would.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Create these characters and have music in my head and
I would go someplace else, and it really saved my
life as a kid. It was this amazing, wonderful thing.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
I care your.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I used to start doing talent shows in third grade
and I choreographed a dance routine to man Hunt from
Flash Dance and been third grade.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Is there a videotape for that?
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I wish we weren't. We were poor, so we didn't
like record this.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
But can you imagine like this led a little black
kid doing a jazz dance routine to man Hunt from
Flash Dance. And I don't think I fully, I didn't
understand what I'm going on a man Hunt Mint. So
I've always been a performer, and I always knew that
I would transition to acting. Even when I was a dancer,
(04:37):
I felt like it was all sort of about characters.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
It was all about sort.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Of creating personas, and so so I always knew that
I would transition to acting. And I went to dim
School of Fine Arts and was a dance major there
and did and then I did started doing some musicals
in high school and college and started studying acting in college.
I went to Indiana University, then transferred to Marymount Manhattan
College and I have a degree in dance, but I started
(05:03):
doing theater when I was in college. I did my
first movie when I was in college. And after I
graduated and realized I was I needed to like stop
being in denial about being trans. I was like, well,
there's no transactors. And this was the mid to late nineties,
and I was like, what am I going to do?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
You know? So then I went to fashion school for
like a year.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Oh yeah, okay, so you you looked at the scope,
at the landscape of the industry, the acting industry, and said,
there's no transactors. This is there's no there's no career
path here. But I'm so I'm going to go into fashion.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
That was really fascinating.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I knew trans people who were in fashion. I knew
trans people who were buyers and who worked in merchandising,
and so I was thinking I was going to I
was studying merchandising at FAT and I did it for like,
you know, you know, two semesters for like a year,
and I was like, I love fashion, but I don't.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Want to do this.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So I did a movie in college my senior year,
and like someone saw me on the subway and thought
I'd be perfume for this movie and did a movie
then and then I someone saw me in a club.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
I auditioned for a film. I did another film.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
My little roles were coming around here and there for
a drag or trance and they didn't know the difference
between dragon trans at the time, and so I was
I was getting these little roles, and then I just
was sort of like And then there was a woman
named Candace Edmondson who I worked with a coffee shop
in Union Square, and she was like, oh, you're acting.
You should come to this acting class. And a woman
(06:29):
named Susan Batson was still teaching. Now she was studying
with Susan. I went to Susan's class and it did.
It changed my life and I was like, now it's
the time to get serious about acting. I don't know
if you know Susan, but she she well, she she
while she coaches Juliete Binos, Nicole kid Mean, She's worked
with Nicole for years. She has a beautiful book on
(06:50):
acting called Truth and she has her own process. But
she studied with Lee Strasberg. She was a member of
the act. She is a member of the Actors Studio,
and she also studied with Uda Hogen and has a
great book called Truth about Acting. And when I started
studying with Susan, it really I fell in love with
acting and I really began to understand the power of
the art form to change hearts and minds.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
There was a there was a directive.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Susan always would ask us, implore us when we had
a character, what do you want to say to the
world about this character, about the humanity of this character.
Tom Brangle, who was one of the teachers, he always
gave this example of when he had to he did
a play and he had to play a rapist, and
he was just like, what do I want to say
(07:35):
to the world about this rapist, horrible character that I'm
you know, a person who's done a horrible thing. And
for him it was like if you don't you know,
for parents, if you don't you know, love your children,
your child could turn into this horrible person.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
So there was a there was.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Always something attached to the work that was bigger than
the work. But then there was also a call to
delve is deep into your psyche as possible to show
her whole thing is to create a walking, talking human
being and to always find the bottom of the character.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
And when you really commit.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
She helped me understand and I think all her students
understanding when you fully commit to the process of delving
deep into your psyche to give those things over to character.
So many details, so many layers, and when you layer that,
when you create a full human being, that that can
shift molecule so that that could change the world. And
(08:31):
then in two thousand and seven, a woman named Candace
Kane became the first transactor to have a recurring role
in a primetime TV show that shows dirty sexy money.
That made me believe it was possible. And I've been
studying seriously since two thousand and one. And so then
I printed five hundred postcards that said Laverne Cox is
(08:51):
the answer to all your transcender acting needs. Before then
I was auditioning for things and not sort of like
necessarily disclosing my transness. And then I got four meetings
and one of them was with my current manager of
Paul Jleppo, And we've been together since two thousand and seven,
which is amazing.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And that's crazy with somebody that long.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah, it's been a hard road.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I mean, if I was listening to your podcast in
your conversation with Mark Ruffullo, and you were sort of
talking about going on auditions and a lot of my
colleagues who were not trans have have had so many
more auditions than I have.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
There just haven't been that many roles.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And so I've just been really I mean, when The
Orange's New Black Moment came along in twenty twelve, I
was going to quit acting. I just turned forty, and
I thought, you know, who do you think you are
thinking that you can be an actor? And you're forty now,
and you're black and you're trans, and no one's you know,
(09:45):
had a mainstream career, and so I was going to go.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I was about to apply to grad school.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I was studying for my gre and I was about
to apply to grad school and the Orange audition came
along and I booked it and it changed my life.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Wow, Sow. And of course you were so fantastic on
that show, along with thanks everything since then and now
now you must just turn down work left and right, etc.
I mean not sure. You seem like you're really really busy.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I'm busy, yes, and I'm and I'm also I am picky.
I don't get you know, it's still don't get a
lot of offers. I do turn down a lot of things, though,
because I don't want to repeat myself, or it needs
to be for me. It needs to be working with
great actors or working with great directors, or.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
A story that I really.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Want to tell, and time is precious, and you know,
so a lot of it it's about the director, it's
about the story. I do turn down a lot of things,
but I don't get a lot of offers either. But
I'm lucky that I get to sort of host Red
Carpets and I still do a lot of speaking engagements
and we do a lot and do my podcast, and
(10:53):
so I do get to do a lot of different
things and so have multiple income streams. But then it
also keeps me creatively excited. So the certainly there are
a lot of my colleagues who work who you know,
who have four Immy nominations, who act way more than
I act. But I'm lucky that I have other things
(11:15):
that I also get to do. But I'm hoping I
have a couple of projects in the can. I'm hoping
people will see the work and see the range I think,
you know, I still have to prove myself. I think
there's a lot I think people, you know, this business,
people will put you in a box and think that
there's only one thing.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
They need to do.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
And I am looking forward to people seeing the range
of what I can do. And I'm very committed to
being a better actor and playing different kinds of roles.
And I can't wait for the world to see the things,
the new things that we've done that are.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Very different than what we've done before.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
So I'm excited about that and hopefully it'll click with
people and directors and casting people will see it and.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Say, oh, she can do this too, and oh she
can do that.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Well.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
That's always the challenge, right is yeah that you know.
I mean, I've always felt that starting out. I was
kind of even told by people, this is the type
of thing that you're going to do and it's going
to be whatever it was in my case, you know,
boy next door or you know whatever, and fighting against
(12:22):
that and taking those risks and trying to to uh
because Hollywood really does want you to do the thing.
It's not even so much the last thing they saw
you in, but it's the thing that you've been the
most successful at They want you because they figure that
if they could make money, you know, from the thing
that you did, well, then they want you to do
(12:42):
it again so they can make the money from the
thing that you did.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Absolutely, you know, being a black trans woman and with
the environment that's still anti trans now being commercially viable,
it's like a tricky thing and it's something I think
a lot about, and I think a lot about reaching
bigger audiences and more diverse audiences, which is going to
be really important from my career going the business part
(13:04):
of my career going forward. So it's something I think
a lot about. And hopefully my hope is that what
I've always believed was Susan instilled in me and all
her students is that if the work is truly human
and you really do the work, it will transcend all categories.
(13:25):
It will transcend that it doesn't matter what you look like.
She always would talk about Woopy Goldberg and that she
didn't look like anyone else, you know, and the power
of the work that she did and color purple specifically
then and as a comedian she was just so good
and so people connected to her and related to her
(13:47):
and she made us laugh and she made us feel
that it didn't matter that she didn't look like anybody else.
And so this is my charge as an artist that
I'm not like anybody else.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
And I think that's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
But I that that, but I must be I must
be exceptional, you know. And so I'm probably my biggest
critic in terms of my work, and I try what
I do. Love about acting though it's my my my
prayer before this podcast today and my prayer before I work,
it's always God, give me permission to do this imperfectly
and allow me to be of service. And so a's
(14:22):
critical as I am of everything that I.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Do writing that down right now imperfectly and of service.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Thank you that I But so the I have to
let go of the perfectionism though that's so that I
have to consciously say this is this is going to
be perfect, and that's okay. And I love acting because
that's there's something about acting as because I sang too,
and when you sing and I sing opera, when you sing,
either you're hitting the note or you're not. You know,
(14:52):
there is a precision that's required. But with acting, there's
so many different choices. I love when I get to
do a scene a zillion different ways, because then I
don't I don't become beholden to I wish they'd use
that take, even though that just happened to be recently.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
But the project I give.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I like to give a lot of options to directors,
and then it helps me artistically to not get stuck
in the scene should be just this way.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
So I'm with it.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
I love playing different ways.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
That's a way to go. I totally agree. I mean,
once you understand the character, you know, if you really
understand the character, then there's no reason not to try
different different things, because if you're already inhabiting that person
that just like we, you know, we react to different
things in the course of our day. I love it
(15:43):
when I speak to actors who really uh are are
are so uh vocal and proud and into the fact
that the work that we do. It can often be
so dismissed, you know, as it's kind of like we
just get a lot of money for looking good and
(16:04):
wearing makeup, and and people will say to you things like,
you know, I don't understand how you could learn all
those lines, which you know, as we all know, is
the least of your problems. I mean, it was really
it was really about learning lines. You know, we could
all be whatever politicians or something. But I mean, I
think that you know, it's I love to hear your
(16:26):
enthusiasm and and uh and and love of the craft
because I feel the same way. I really still loving it.
I've been doing it way longer than you have, and
I just I absolutely still find all of the nuances
in all of the ways that other people use that process,
and and and the fact that you know, you you
(16:48):
slid from one very specific kind of technique and then
discovered another one, And it sounds like in some ways
you're kind of creating your own as life goes on.
That that takes.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Different calling call for a different things.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
They different and different actors and different directors, and every
situation is super different. You know, you mentioned them just
in Passing Opera. And I'm curious about that because I'm,
you know, sitting on this side of the of the
of the of the microphone, which is kind of a
new thing for me. I'm I'm I find myself echoing
(17:24):
back questions that I get all the time because I
play in a band and a songwriter and singer, and
so this is something that I get. How do you
how do you feel uh performed, performing as an actor
relates to something that you would do vocally or in
in Are there similarities or differences between the music part
(17:45):
of your life and the and the acting part of
your life.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I mean the similarity is with with with opera is
often there is a character if you're singing an aria
from an opera. I'm working at some material from Carmen now,
so there's a character. She's a character, and I'm working
around the Prey de Rampa de Seville and it's a
scene with Jean Jose and it's the it's a moment
in Carmen when she's been arrested and John Jose is
(18:09):
the officer and she's been arrested. He's she's been arrested
because she's got into a fight with some of the
girls with cigarette factory, and she's seducing Don Jose while
she's sort of her hands are tied behind her back,
and so she's, you know, singing to herself and seducing
him and it's so much fun. And so right now
I have to remember that this opera thing is for
me and that it's supposed to be fun, and yes,
(18:31):
I will continue to work on my technique and I
love to sing an f above high see glory, but
it doesn't come out every day.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
There is a video on Instagram right now me singing in.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
I got to check that out that for those of
you that don't know, that is a very high note.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
It's a very high note. And it's fun that I
that that comes out. Sometimes it doesn't come out every day,
but so yeah, I love working on technique as a singer.
But then I do this because it's fun like this,
No one's asking me to think, no one cares or
you know, so this needs to be fun for me.
So I'm going to work on the Carmen and working
on some metso stuff where I can probably act more
and just have a little scrind and have it be
(19:10):
a little less technical, even though I will continue to
work on my technique.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
So you know, I love it when people do multiple
things in their in their lives, which you've done, you know,
time and time again. You you you uh, you know,
as you mentioned done your red carpet stuff and opera,
your amazing acting career.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
You're also a very strong advocate for different kinds of
human rights. And I think that's a pretty good segue
to bring in the Chase Strangio today. Who is from
the A C l U And who is you have
invited to join us? Hey you Chase? How you doing?
Speaker 5 (19:53):
I'm doing well.
Speaker 6 (19:54):
I've been very intrigued by your conversation and excited excited
to be here with you.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Well.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Laverne mentioned in passing that, uh, you know that we
were at a a dark moment in this country in
terms of backlash against people with trans writes, and I
have to say, I mean, I just there are times
when I really really do feel like we are taking
(20:23):
a step back from you know, even five years ago. Uh.
And I'm wondering, first off, what is the what is
the work that you are doing around this very specific issue,
and and what is it that you think has has
uh has gotten us here?
Speaker 6 (20:41):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's funny that you you you
both started talking about Footlooth because there's.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Moments when in this current landscape.
Speaker 6 (20:50):
Where you start to look at the level of constraint
and restrictions on people's ability to experience joy, pleasure a
secular life, and you almost think about the conditions and
footloots at times like we are moving in this in
this direction, both in the United States and globally, where
you have the rise of far right governments happening alongside,
(21:13):
of course, these very particular types of restrictions over bodily autonomy,
over the family, over the possibilities for one's sense of
imagination and self expression and self actualization.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
And what that looks like in.
Speaker 6 (21:28):
Practice is fighting back against laws, not just those targeting
the trans community, those restricting what our kids can learn
in school, those constraining what we can access in public libraries.
Obviously massive changing conditions in the overturning of ree View
Waid with the Dobbs decision, continued voter suppression since the
(21:49):
Supreme Court overturned the Voting Rights Act. So we're having
these intersecting realities affecting people's lives.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
And then in.
Speaker 6 (21:56):
Particular for trans people, there is just an existential salt
on our existence, one that is very much focused on kids,
young people, and adolescents in particular in schools, but also
that has grave implications not just for trans adults but
for all of us, because this is an entry point
into a larger incursion into our body autonomy, our freedom,
(22:18):
and our ability to live full and free lives.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I'm curious for you, Chase. Obviously you found your way
to this work and to the ACL I want to
as you've got the microphone, so I'm very interested in
what brought you to this work And tell me a
little bit about your specific story.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
Yeah, I'm someone who you know, sort of my tools
for my survival, my way of managing growing up when
I you know, I didn't have access to representations of
queerness and transness.
Speaker 6 (22:55):
I'm forty one years old. I didn't grow up at
a time when there was uh the Internet available to me,
So I didn't even really understand the breadth of possibility.
And so my my weapons, so to speak, or my
survival battle tool was my mind. And and so you know,
also Verne's sort of notion of perfectionism, how often we
(23:16):
use perfectionism as a as a survival as a survival
mechanism when we're feel when we feel unlovable, we don't
see a place for ourselves. And so for me find
you know, fighting, you know, WY way to survive in
school into adulthood was about intellectual pursuits, which ultimately drew
me to college, which I had the privilege to attend,
(23:37):
and then and then to to law school ultimately, and
and in part I went to law school because I
saw that as a legitimizing forces.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
I was becoming more aware of my.
Speaker 6 (23:47):
Queerness and my transness, not understanding how I would exist
in a world that you know, fundamentally rejected transgressions. Uh uh,
you know, people's transgressions from the gender binary. I mean
went to college at the height of the backlash to
the very early successes of fights for marriage equality after
Massachusetts legalized same sex marriage in two thousand and three.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
You know, you had the George W.
Speaker 6 (24:10):
Bush years where more than half the country constitutionally bans marriage.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Equality for same sex couples.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
And so as you're growing up and coming of age
in his time, for me, my question was, well, who
am I going to be and how am I gonna
How am I going to find a way to navigate
in this world? And so I ultimately did become a lawyer,
both to serve my community as a transperson, to fight
as a trans lawyer for trans causes, but also, you know,
if I'm honest, to find a way to be someone
(24:38):
who could be seen and taken seriously in society and
that is something that I think it would be it
would be dishonest not to admit that that was part
of the journey. And I ultimately found my way to
the ACLU eleven years ago, and I've been here working
on behalf of LGBTQ rights and justice in the courts
(24:59):
and the legislatures and also in the public conversation. And
Laverne and I have worked closely together for the last
ten years or so because I think we both recognize
at the end of the day, you can fight every
single battle, and in the courts you can win some
of those battles, but if you're not changing people's empathetic impulses,
if you're not changing the cultural context, those those legal
(25:22):
and policy changes are not going to be durable. And
so so much of the work is about, you know,
the theater of the courtroom, but it's so much more
about the theater of society, and how are we going
to ultimately transform people's understanding of our relationship to each
other as human beings and and and our you know,
sort of deservedness of our humanity.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Connect Please, I want to add to that because I
think so much of what has brought us to this
moment is the sort of collision of media, media propaganda
that is literally affecting what's happening in the courts, the
propaganda that dehumanizes trans people on every single level. And
(26:06):
for me right now, it's so important that we understand
that what is what anti trans people have done very
successfully is dehumanized trans people through conversations about our focusing
on our bodies, focusing on transition, using sports, and through
that dehumanization they've been able to successfully take away our rights.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Chase is challenging these laws in the courts.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
We'll see what happens, but we a huge part of
this project needs to be rehumanizing, not just trans people,
but everybody.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
We are in a.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Culture right now where we see so many people dehumanizing
each other. And Brene Brown reminds us in her book
Braving the Wilderness, at the beginning of every single genocide
was dehumanization. So we have to if we are interested
in not having genocides and celebrating the humanity of everyone,
(27:02):
we have to really look at the ways in which
we use dehumanizing language understanding. And it's not for me,
it's not about policing language, because I'm not a language police,
But I think I believe in freedom of speech, but
I think it's about understanding that when we talk about
trans people and reduce us to chromosomes or testosterone levels
or genitalia, that that is objectifying us, in dehumanizing us,
(27:26):
and that leads to the conditions that where our rights
can be taken away, where we can just be murdered
in streets with impunity and people are just like, well,
you're not human anyway, right. So the work, and this
is what I love about being an artist, and this
is what the work we can do in the media
is to humanize trans people. And we are an uphel
(27:48):
battle because there is a very organized right wing media
ecosystem that is committed to dehumanizing trans people. And I
think it's not just what trans people. We have to
be careful about how we use language about anyone we
disagree with. I believe that like so often it's so
easy when someone did that we disagree with, says something
(28:11):
or does something, that it becomes really easy to use
the humanizing language against them. And I think we have
to fight against that because when we dehumanize other people,
we dehumanize ourselves.
Speaker 7 (28:27):
If you are inspired by today's episode. Please join us
in supporting six degrees dot org by texting the word
Bacon to seven zero seven zero seven zero. Your gift
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Once again, text b a co m to seven zero
(28:52):
seven zero seven zero or visit six degrees dot org
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Speaker 1 (28:59):
Chase, you brought this up about, you know, a culture building,
a culture of empathy and a culture of understanding that
that somehow, some sometimes does not exist in our society.
And you know, I am the perfect demographic for the
person that sometimes looks at and I've heard this from
(29:24):
from people that I know. You know, look, they look
at something like a way of speaking, you know, pronouns
or or or or language that you mentioned language Laverne,
And the reaction is, oh, wow, I can't say anything anymore,
you know what I mean? It's that it's that point
of view of wanting desperately to hold on to some
(29:49):
kind of idea of what the status quo is. And
I wonder for both of you, how do you address that?
I mean, just just to. In my opinion, the idea
that you can learn something new when you're an old guy, right,
is the most beautiful possibility there is in the world.
(30:11):
You can learn to adjust your way of thinking. That's
how you stop dying. Really, you know, that's that's that's
what that's what you know when you when you're stuck
in one sort of mindset, you've got one foot in
the grape. So I'm just wondering if you have any
suggestions and how to deal with that when that comes up.
(30:32):
And when you hear that, oh my gosh, I can't
you know, yeah.
Speaker 6 (30:36):
I mean, I guess my initial response to the idea
when people say, well, we can't say anything anymore. You
can do You can say whatever you want. It's just
whether there are consequences to what you say. And that's
the reality is that there are. We live in a
society where norms change, the consequences of our actions change.
It's like when we have conversations about acceptable levels of
(30:57):
violence against women in the workplace, for you know, this
reaction of men and the saying, well, now I can't.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Talk to a woman. It's like, well, I have a
lot of questions.
Speaker 6 (31:07):
It does that you can't talk because because what you're
you are incapable of talking to a woman without these
certain things, or you're afraid of these consequences. We have
to have a more robust conversation about what what people
are saying they can and can't do. And often what
that means is there are different consequences for me doing
a certain thing. You can still choose to do it,
you just then have a different set of consequences. But
(31:28):
I think what's really hard. I mean, I think about
myself as a parent and so many other parents. I
think if you ask people what is one reason you
have kids, and I think a lot of people will
say it is really beautiful to see the world anew
to experience a newness to things that you become jaded on.
And this is an example of that, Like we want
the world to change. How Like to your point, Kevin,
(31:51):
how dull and uninteresting a life if nothing changes as
you age.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
And into your your your older adult years.
Speaker 6 (31:59):
And so it's on the one hand, you want to
have kids and you want to see the world a
new but you want to control all of the contours
of that. I think that that's, you know, a contradiction
in terms and I would say, you know, yes, there
are moments when I have an eleven year old and
I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about,
but our impulse to say and therefore I want to
dismiss it instead of to say, Wow, how much more
exciting could my world be?
Speaker 4 (32:21):
You know comes from a place of fear, and people
are often fearful of what they don't understand, and that
makes sense, but I think we're all much more enriched
when we say, huh, what would it look like to
incorporate that into my sense of possibility? Instead of trying
to keep things exactly as how I feel most comfortable.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
I may, I may, I may I. I mean, I
hear it all the time.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I consume tons of media and like people are constantly saying,
you can't say anything anymore. People are so sensitive And
again I'm not I mean, I'm an artist and I
believe in freedom of speech. But for me, when I
I had a moment on Twitter many years ago, and
I'm from Alabama and my homestate passed a crazy abortion restriction,
(33:05):
and I retweeted a friend who said a woman's body
a woman's choice in a story, and then a transman
tweeted me and said, you're really going to erase transmen
and non binary people in this tweet Laverta.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
I was just like, oh no, here we go. And
it was a moment.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
I just remember feeling it was so uncomfortable and I
felt like called out and I felt so it was
so uncomfortable and so awkward, and I remember tweeting I
was like, thank you for pointing this out. I'll take
this into consideration, I really and I thought about a
lot about it, and at the moment, in the moment,
I was like, oh god, I don't know if people
want to think about transman being pregnant right now. And
so I had all these things and I was like,
(33:42):
can I have a moment of solidarity with my you know, sisters?
And it was like but then what that moment was about,
though for me it's someone who was interested in the
humanity of trans people, is that, like, I don't want
to erase the experience of trans people. So it's not
about like this trans guy being super sensitive. It's about
(34:07):
me wanting to make him feel included and make him
feel like he's being seen. And there are real life
consequences when we don't when people who can get pregnant
and their healthcare needs are not being addressed because they
don't identify as women. So there actually are material consequences
(34:31):
when we don't consider consider people.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
And so the language piece.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Language is how we communicate and how we relate information.
It's not about not being able to say something for me.
It's about understanding the consequences of what we say and
how it affects the real lived experiences of people.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
These are really tiny adjustments when you really look at
it in the bigger picture of things. These are not hardships.
To try to address somebody in the way that they
would be more comfortable being addressed. To try to keep
your hands to yourself, you know, to try to think about,
you know, not not joking in the way that you
(35:14):
joked around on the set in the eighties, you know
what I mean, whatever happens to be, they're not really big,
huge adjustments to make. Let's face it. I mean, they're
they're they're they're they're easy.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Sometimes there are moments are of discomfort that one might have.
That the moment on Twitter when I was called out
publicly by this transman, it was very uncomfortable, and so I.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Think we being able to sit.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
With discomfort and being able to distinguish between being uncomfortable
and being shamed or being you know, having some granularity
around what's what we're feeling and having some sort of
self awareness and self accountability I think becomes really important.
And then also being able to interrogate our own relationship
to power.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
And I think that.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
I sort of hate the phrase check your privilege, but
I think it's important for It's been very important for me.
Is I've you know, even as a black trans woman
from a working class background that like now as a
famous person, as a person with some class privilege that
I have, I'm privileged now. So it's like me constantly
being willing and willing to be uncomfortable to interrogate my
(36:28):
privilege is to hold myself accountable, to try to be
accountable to the people in my life, to my to
the public platform that I have, and the people that
I represent, to try to be accountable and like all
of that is really can be really uncomfortable and very difficult,
(36:48):
but hopefully we can begin to do that with the
people in our lives and our inner circles, and maybe
I would love to I'm trying to do this publicly.
I'm trying as much as possible model way in which
we can publicly create safe space so that we can
have conversations where people don't shut down and feel attacked
(37:08):
and so then go into defense mode.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Well, well, speaking with a lot, Well no, I'm I
you do a lot of work in terms of being
public about all of these things, which, which you know, listen,
is fantastic. We we don't all do. Chase, you're here
with the A. C. L U and I. I've kept
(37:32):
you guys for so long, and I really do appreciate
you both being here, but I'm curious from you, Chase,
at this moment in time. It's two pronged question. Number one,
what are the most pressing issues that we have right
now in the in this country and in the world,
and most specifically our call to action? How can people
help and get get involved and and uh and and
(37:56):
you know, try to turn things around.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Well, we went from a situation where there was zero
laws in.
Speaker 6 (38:04):
Twenty twenty one that banned healthcare for transgender adolescence.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Zero.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
So in the span of two years, we went from
zero laws to now we have twenty two states that
categorically ban evidence based medicine for transgender adolescence. And I
think what's important for people to understand, especially for parents
to understand, is this is a healthcare that's only being
prescribed with the consent of parents and the recommendation of
every major medical association in the United States, and the
(38:31):
state is coming in and saying we know better, we're
going to take away that one option. And what that's
done is to take away healthcare that people have been
relying on in almost half the country, increasing the demand
on other states if people can even travel to other states,
but also for those who can't, are making it close
to impossible. And obviously there's an outside sense of sort
(38:53):
of how many young people are getting this care because
of how much coverage there is, but of course it's
a very very.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Small percentage of people. But the state our life or death.
Speaker 6 (39:01):
And so right now we're fighting in the courts trying
to stop the state, just like in the context of abortion,
just like in the contexts of other restrictions on bodily autonomy,
stop to state from intruding on our ability to make
the decisions with our parents, with our children that are
best for us in accordance with the recommendations.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
Of our doctors. We are now asking the Supreme Court
to review one of these cases. Many there may be.
Speaker 6 (39:26):
Several cases involving transgender rights going up to the Supreme Court,
So the states could not be higher as well as
of course, we're building up to a presidential election. We
know that some of the candidates running are some of
the most anti transpoliticians in the country, including Nicki Haley,
including Governor DeSantis, including Donald Trump.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
And so what does it mean if you shift the executive.
Speaker 6 (39:45):
And you have people who fundamentally want to eradicate trans
life leading our country.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
So that is the nature of the threat. It truly
is life or death.
Speaker 6 (39:55):
And just as a reminder, people are trying to take
away our ability to determine that's right for us.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
This doesn't concern them.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
You know, one person's medical care that they and their
parents and their doctor agree is necessary does not implicate
another person's life, safety, or freedom.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
But taking it away from us does implicate ours. So
as a call to action, and.
Speaker 6 (40:15):
Just to make it brief, I would say, first and foremost,
we all have the ability to change the circumstances and
conversations in our lives and communities.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
So you know, to your point, Kevin, when you're on set, if.
Speaker 6 (40:25):
You're in your kids school, just make more room for
people to exist, because so much of this is playing
out in the public discourse. So don't say I can't
use the pronouns like you use a pronouns all the time.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Is there a package coming today, Yeah, they're bringing it
in an hour. We do it. It's actually very common.
And in the second we shut something down, we just
make less space.
Speaker 6 (40:46):
So maybe it takes you a little while, maybe it
is hard, but how can we make more space in
our lives? And then also, you know, give money when
you can, share resources when you can, and think about
your political engagement, not just at the federal level, but at.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
This local level as well.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 6 (41:01):
So much is happening in our school boards, so much
is happening in our city council. So much is happening
in our state legislatures.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
That's so true. It's so true. On the state level,
it's so important.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
And I can just add the fight is happening on
the state level. But desantists Trump have both said that
they will ban gender firm and care nationally.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
They are committed to that.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
If we have a Republican president they plan to ban
gender firming care nationally. And it's not just for about children,
it's everyone. There are states now that are banning gender
firm and care also for adults. And what I would
say to that, for everyone who's out there who wants
to say, well, I think whether or not trans children
should access gender or firming care that's up for debate,
(41:43):
I would say it's not. As Chase said, this care
is Every major medical association says that this care is
healthy and it is safe, and politicians should not be
involved in that period. Point blank, My existence, my access
to healthcare should not be up for debate. It is
none of your business. And I would love for people
(42:04):
to say, when they hear people say this, we should
be debating this.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
No, we should not.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
We should allow trans people to exist on their own terms,
have conversations with their doctors, with their parents, and the
government should have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
It's been absolutely up thrilling to hear both of you
and your obviously personal and heartfelt opinions and the work
that you're doing on this very very very important issue.
(42:41):
Hey guys, thanks for listening to another episode of Six
Degrees with Kevin Bacon and If you want to learn
more about how the ACLU is fighting for trans rights
and how you can get involved, head to their website
ACLU dot org. You can find all the links in
our show notes. Like what you hear, make sure you
(43:01):
subscribe to the show and tune into the rest of
our episodes so you can find Six Degrees with Kevin
Bacon on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
See you next time.
Hey, everybody. Today's guest has honestly made history, first by
making a mark in the award winning TV show Orange
Is a New Black, before building a career that spans
film and TV and music and so much more. Laverne
Cox is an inspirational figure for so many people, and
I'm so glad to have her on the show today.
(00:21):
Her story will blow you away, So lean in. I'm
glad you well. I am here today extremely excited to
welcome our guest, Laverne Cox. Laverne, it's so great. Have
(00:43):
we ever have our paths crossed? I feel like we
must have met someplace. I know we haven't worked in
anything together, but.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I think I would remember meeting the legendary Kevin Bacon.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I think I would remember meeting the legendary Laverne.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
We've never met. It's so funny.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
I was in I was in La over the weekend
and Footloose was on TV with I know, and and
then Flash Dance came on and I just like, I'm
fifty one years old, so like my entire like elementary school,
like life, like flash before my eyes, and like it
(01:23):
was such it was such a moment. I know you've
done many things since Footloose, but that is how I
discovered you, and it.
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Was just a lovely nostalgic moment that I had just
had just a few days ago.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
Oh that's awesome. Yeah, well let me tell you.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Maybe I have to watch it.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
The scary thing is it's the fortieth anniversary this year.
I'm not quite sure how to process that yet. But
in twenty twenty four, it'll be the fortieth anniversary of
making that movie. And you mentioned the Flash Dance, which
I believe came out either the year before or around
the same time.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
It's a year before.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah, it was a year before, right, And funny side
story is that I had a I had a dance
double in the in the movie as well as as
well as and so did Jennifer Peele and they there
the two doubles got married.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Oh my god, I didn't know that.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Isn't that crazy story? That's yeah, I'm not sure it lasted,
but I know that they were married for a while.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
That's amazing. God.
Speaker 2 (02:27):
Flash Dance with My Life got Footlooths was so just
be nostalgia, the memories. Anyway, Well, it's so nice.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
It's so nice to meet you, so nice to have
you here especially, uh, fantastic knowing that you liked that movie,
so thank you for that. Of course, I'm so speaking
about going going back. I know you probably hear this
a lot, but tell me about your your your journey
into this specifically into this profession, and what it was
(02:57):
that brought you to our screen.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
Oh my, you know. I it's been a long journey.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
But I started out so when I when I was
a kid, I grew up in Mobile, Alabama, and when
I started walking, I started dancing and I always had
and so I was a dancer as a kid. So
footloose and flash dance were touchstones, as was fame for me,
and so I was. And so from about the age
of five years old till third grade, I begged my
(03:28):
mother to put me into dance classes, and finally, when
I was in third grade, I started studying tap in jazz. Mobil,
Alabama was not the best place for me to grow up.
I was bullied as a kid. I was you know,
beaten up and chased home from school every day because
I was this very fim child and I was assigned
male at birth.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
And so when I would dance, I would.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Create these characters and have music in my head and
I would go someplace else, and it really saved my
life as a kid. It was this amazing, wonderful thing.
Speaker 3 (03:59):
I care your.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
I used to start doing talent shows in third grade
and I choreographed a dance routine to man Hunt from
Flash Dance and been third grade.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Is there a videotape for that?
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I wish we weren't. We were poor, so we didn't
like record this.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
But can you imagine like this led a little black
kid doing a jazz dance routine to man Hunt from
Flash Dance. And I don't think I fully, I didn't
understand what I'm going on a man Hunt Mint. So
I've always been a performer, and I always knew that
I would transition to acting. Even when I was a dancer,
(04:37):
I felt like it was all sort of about characters.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
It was all about sort.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Of creating personas, and so so I always knew that
I would transition to acting. And I went to dim
School of Fine Arts and was a dance major there
and did and then I did started doing some musicals
in high school and college and started studying acting in college.
I went to Indiana University, then transferred to Marymount Manhattan
College and I have a degree in dance, but I started
(05:03):
doing theater when I was in college. I did my
first movie when I was in college. And after I
graduated and realized I was I needed to like stop
being in denial about being trans. I was like, well,
there's no transactors. And this was the mid to late nineties,
and I was like, what am I going to do?
Speaker 3 (05:19):
You know? So then I went to fashion school for
like a year.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Oh yeah, okay, so you you looked at the scope,
at the landscape of the industry, the acting industry, and said,
there's no transactors. This is there's no there's no career
path here. But I'm so I'm going to go into fashion.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
That was really fascinating.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I knew trans people who were in fashion. I knew
trans people who were buyers and who worked in merchandising,
and so I was thinking I was going to I
was studying merchandising at FAT and I did it for like,
you know, you know, two semesters for like a year,
and I was like, I love fashion, but I don't.
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Want to do this.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So I did a movie in college my senior year,
and like someone saw me on the subway and thought
I'd be perfume for this movie and did a movie
then and then I someone saw me in a club.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
I auditioned for a film. I did another film.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
My little roles were coming around here and there for
a drag or trance and they didn't know the difference
between dragon trans at the time, and so I was
I was getting these little roles, and then I just
was sort of like And then there was a woman
named Candace Edmondson who I worked with a coffee shop
in Union Square, and she was like, oh, you're acting.
You should come to this acting class. And a woman
(06:29):
named Susan Batson was still teaching. Now she was studying
with Susan. I went to Susan's class and it did.
It changed my life and I was like, now it's
the time to get serious about acting. I don't know
if you know Susan, but she she well, she she
while she coaches Juliete Binos, Nicole kid Mean, She's worked
with Nicole for years. She has a beautiful book on
(06:50):
acting called Truth and she has her own process. But
she studied with Lee Strasberg. She was a member of
the act. She is a member of the Actors Studio,
and she also studied with Uda Hogen and has a
great book called Truth about Acting. And when I started
studying with Susan, it really I fell in love with
acting and I really began to understand the power of
the art form to change hearts and minds.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
There was a there was a directive.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Susan always would ask us, implore us when we had
a character, what do you want to say to the
world about this character, about the humanity of this character.
Tom Brangle, who was one of the teachers, he always
gave this example of when he had to he did
a play and he had to play a rapist, and
he was just like, what do I want to say
(07:35):
to the world about this rapist, horrible character that I'm
you know, a person who's done a horrible thing. And
for him it was like if you don't you know,
for parents, if you don't you know, love your children,
your child could turn into this horrible person.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
So there was a there was.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Always something attached to the work that was bigger than
the work. But then there was also a call to
delve is deep into your psyche as possible to show
her whole thing is to create a walking, talking human
being and to always find the bottom of the character.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
And when you really commit.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
She helped me understand and I think all her students
understanding when you fully commit to the process of delving
deep into your psyche to give those things over to character.
So many details, so many layers, and when you layer that,
when you create a full human being, that that can
shift molecule so that that could change the world. And
(08:31):
then in two thousand and seven, a woman named Candace
Kane became the first transactor to have a recurring role
in a primetime TV show that shows dirty sexy money.
That made me believe it was possible. And I've been
studying seriously since two thousand and one. And so then
I printed five hundred postcards that said Laverne Cox is
(08:51):
the answer to all your transcender acting needs. Before then
I was auditioning for things and not sort of like
necessarily disclosing my transness. And then I got four meetings
and one of them was with my current manager of
Paul Jleppo, And we've been together since two thousand and seven,
which is amazing.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
And that's crazy with somebody that long.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeah, it's been a hard road.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
I mean, if I was listening to your podcast in
your conversation with Mark Ruffullo, and you were sort of
talking about going on auditions and a lot of my
colleagues who were not trans have have had so many
more auditions than I have.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
There just haven't been that many roles.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
And so I've just been really I mean, when The
Orange's New Black Moment came along in twenty twelve, I
was going to quit acting. I just turned forty, and
I thought, you know, who do you think you are
thinking that you can be an actor? And you're forty now,
and you're black and you're trans, and no one's you know,
(09:45):
had a mainstream career, and so I was going to go.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
I was about to apply to grad school.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I was studying for my gre and I was about
to apply to grad school and the Orange audition came
along and I booked it and it changed my life.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Wow, Sow. And of course you were so fantastic on
that show, along with thanks everything since then and now
now you must just turn down work left and right, etc.
I mean not sure. You seem like you're really really busy.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
I'm busy, yes, and I'm and I'm also I am picky.
I don't get you know, it's still don't get a
lot of offers. I do turn down a lot of things, though,
because I don't want to repeat myself, or it needs
to be for me. It needs to be working with
great actors or working with great directors, or.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
A story that I really.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Want to tell, and time is precious, and you know,
so a lot of it it's about the director, it's
about the story. I do turn down a lot of things,
but I don't get a lot of offers either. But
I'm lucky that I get to sort of host Red
Carpets and I still do a lot of speaking engagements
and we do a lot and do my podcast, and
(10:53):
so I do get to do a lot of different
things and so have multiple income streams. But then it
also keeps me creatively excited. So the certainly there are
a lot of my colleagues who work who you know,
who have four Immy nominations, who act way more than
I act. But I'm lucky that I have other things
(11:15):
that I also get to do. But I'm hoping I
have a couple of projects in the can. I'm hoping
people will see the work and see the range I think,
you know, I still have to prove myself. I think
there's a lot I think people, you know, this business,
people will put you in a box and think that
there's only one thing.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
They need to do.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
And I am looking forward to people seeing the range
of what I can do. And I'm very committed to
being a better actor and playing different kinds of roles.
And I can't wait for the world to see the things,
the new things that we've done that are.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Very different than what we've done before.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
So I'm excited about that and hopefully it'll click with
people and directors and casting people will see it and.
Speaker 3 (11:58):
Say, oh, she can do this too, and oh she
can do that.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Well.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
That's always the challenge, right is yeah that you know.
I mean, I've always felt that starting out. I was
kind of even told by people, this is the type
of thing that you're going to do and it's going
to be whatever it was in my case, you know,
boy next door or you know whatever, and fighting against
(12:22):
that and taking those risks and trying to to uh
because Hollywood really does want you to do the thing.
It's not even so much the last thing they saw
you in, but it's the thing that you've been the
most successful at They want you because they figure that
if they could make money, you know, from the thing
that you did, well, then they want you to do
(12:42):
it again so they can make the money from the
thing that you did.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Absolutely, you know, being a black trans woman and with
the environment that's still anti trans now being commercially viable,
it's like a tricky thing and it's something I think
a lot about, and I think a lot about reaching
bigger audiences and more diverse audiences, which is going to
be really important from my career going the business part
(13:04):
of my career going forward. So it's something I think
a lot about. And hopefully my hope is that what
I've always believed was Susan instilled in me and all
her students is that if the work is truly human
and you really do the work, it will transcend all categories.
(13:25):
It will transcend that it doesn't matter what you look like.
She always would talk about Woopy Goldberg and that she
didn't look like anyone else, you know, and the power
of the work that she did and color purple specifically
then and as a comedian she was just so good
and so people connected to her and related to her
(13:47):
and she made us laugh and she made us feel
that it didn't matter that she didn't look like anybody else.
And so this is my charge as an artist that
I'm not like anybody else.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
And I think that's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
But I that that, but I must be I must
be exceptional, you know. And so I'm probably my biggest
critic in terms of my work, and I try what
I do. Love about acting though it's my my my
prayer before this podcast today and my prayer before I work,
it's always God, give me permission to do this imperfectly
and allow me to be of service. And so a's
(14:22):
critical as I am of everything that I.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Do writing that down right now imperfectly and of service.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Thank you that I But so the I have to
let go of the perfectionism though that's so that I
have to consciously say this is this is going to
be perfect, and that's okay. And I love acting because
that's there's something about acting as because I sang too,
and when you sing and I sing opera, when you sing,
either you're hitting the note or you're not. You know,
(14:52):
there is a precision that's required. But with acting, there's
so many different choices. I love when I get to
do a scene a zillion different ways, because then I
don't I don't become beholden to I wish they'd use
that take, even though that just happened to be recently.
Speaker 3 (15:07):
But the project I give.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
I like to give a lot of options to directors,
and then it helps me artistically to not get stuck
in the scene should be just this way.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
So I'm with it.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
I love playing different ways.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
That's a way to go. I totally agree. I mean,
once you understand the character, you know, if you really
understand the character, then there's no reason not to try
different different things, because if you're already inhabiting that person
that just like we, you know, we react to different
things in the course of our day. I love it
(15:43):
when I speak to actors who really uh are are
are so uh vocal and proud and into the fact
that the work that we do. It can often be
so dismissed, you know, as it's kind of like we
just get a lot of money for looking good and
(16:04):
wearing makeup, and and people will say to you things like,
you know, I don't understand how you could learn all
those lines, which you know, as we all know, is
the least of your problems. I mean, it was really
it was really about learning lines. You know, we could
all be whatever politicians or something. But I mean, I
think that you know, it's I love to hear your
(16:26):
enthusiasm and and uh and and love of the craft
because I feel the same way. I really still loving it.
I've been doing it way longer than you have, and
I just I absolutely still find all of the nuances
in all of the ways that other people use that process,
and and and the fact that you know, you you
(16:48):
slid from one very specific kind of technique and then
discovered another one, And it sounds like in some ways
you're kind of creating your own as life goes on.
That that takes.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
Different calling call for a different things.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
They different and different actors and different directors, and every
situation is super different. You know, you mentioned them just
in Passing Opera. And I'm curious about that because I'm,
you know, sitting on this side of the of the
of the of the microphone, which is kind of a
new thing for me. I'm I'm I find myself echoing
(17:24):
back questions that I get all the time because I
play in a band and a songwriter and singer, and
so this is something that I get. How do you
how do you feel uh performed, performing as an actor
relates to something that you would do vocally or in
in Are there similarities or differences between the music part
(17:45):
of your life and the and the acting part of
your life.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
I mean the similarity is with with with opera is
often there is a character if you're singing an aria
from an opera. I'm working at some material from Carmen now,
so there's a character. She's a character, and I'm working
around the Prey de Rampa de Seville and it's a
scene with Jean Jose and it's the it's a moment
in Carmen when she's been arrested and John Jose is
(18:09):
the officer and she's been arrested. He's she's been arrested
because she's got into a fight with some of the
girls with cigarette factory, and she's seducing Don Jose while
she's sort of her hands are tied behind her back,
and so she's, you know, singing to herself and seducing
him and it's so much fun. And so right now
I have to remember that this opera thing is for
me and that it's supposed to be fun, and yes,
(18:31):
I will continue to work on my technique and I
love to sing an f above high see glory, but
it doesn't come out every day.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
There is a video on Instagram right now me singing in.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
I got to check that out that for those of
you that don't know, that is a very high note.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
It's a very high note. And it's fun that I
that that comes out. Sometimes it doesn't come out every day,
but so yeah, I love working on technique as a singer.
But then I do this because it's fun like this,
No one's asking me to think, no one cares or
you know, so this needs to be fun for me.
So I'm going to work on the Carmen and working
on some metso stuff where I can probably act more
and just have a little scrind and have it be
(19:10):
a little less technical, even though I will continue to
work on my technique.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
So you know, I love it when people do multiple
things in their in their lives, which you've done, you know,
time and time again. You you you uh, you know,
as you mentioned done your red carpet stuff and opera,
your amazing acting career.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
You're also a very strong advocate for different kinds of
human rights. And I think that's a pretty good segue
to bring in the Chase Strangio today. Who is from
the A C l U And who is you have
invited to join us? Hey you Chase? How you doing?
Speaker 5 (19:53):
I'm doing well.
Speaker 6 (19:54):
I've been very intrigued by your conversation and excited excited
to be here with you.
Speaker 5 (20:01):
Well.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Laverne mentioned in passing that, uh, you know that we
were at a a dark moment in this country in
terms of backlash against people with trans writes, and I
have to say, I mean, I just there are times
when I really really do feel like we are taking
(20:23):
a step back from you know, even five years ago. Uh.
And I'm wondering, first off, what is the what is
the work that you are doing around this very specific issue,
and and what is it that you think has has
uh has gotten us here?
Speaker 6 (20:41):
Yeah, I mean, it's it's funny that you you you
both started talking about Footlooth because there's.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Moments when in this current landscape.
Speaker 6 (20:50):
Where you start to look at the level of constraint
and restrictions on people's ability to experience joy, pleasure a
secular life, and you almost think about the conditions and
footloots at times like we are moving in this in
this direction, both in the United States and globally, where
you have the rise of far right governments happening alongside,
(21:13):
of course, these very particular types of restrictions over bodily autonomy,
over the family, over the possibilities for one's sense of
imagination and self expression and self actualization.
Speaker 4 (21:26):
And what that looks like in.
Speaker 6 (21:28):
Practice is fighting back against laws, not just those targeting
the trans community, those restricting what our kids can learn
in school, those constraining what we can access in public libraries.
Obviously massive changing conditions in the overturning of ree View
Waid with the Dobbs decision, continued voter suppression since the
(21:49):
Supreme Court overturned the Voting Rights Act. So we're having
these intersecting realities affecting people's lives.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
And then in.
Speaker 6 (21:56):
Particular for trans people, there is just an existential salt
on our existence, one that is very much focused on kids,
young people, and adolescents in particular in schools, but also
that has grave implications not just for trans adults but
for all of us, because this is an entry point
into a larger incursion into our body autonomy, our freedom,
(22:18):
and our ability to live full and free lives.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
I'm curious for you, Chase. Obviously you found your way
to this work and to the ACL I want to
as you've got the microphone, so I'm very interested in
what brought you to this work And tell me a
little bit about your specific story.
Speaker 5 (22:41):
Yeah, I'm someone who you know, sort of my tools
for my survival, my way of managing growing up when
I you know, I didn't have access to representations of
queerness and transness.
Speaker 6 (22:55):
I'm forty one years old. I didn't grow up at
a time when there was uh the Internet available to me,
So I didn't even really understand the breadth of possibility.
And so my my weapons, so to speak, or my
survival battle tool was my mind. And and so you know,
also Verne's sort of notion of perfectionism, how often we
(23:16):
use perfectionism as a as a survival as a survival
mechanism when we're feel when we feel unlovable, we don't
see a place for ourselves. And so for me find
you know, fighting, you know, WY way to survive in
school into adulthood was about intellectual pursuits, which ultimately drew
me to college, which I had the privilege to attend,
(23:37):
and then and then to to law school ultimately, and
and in part I went to law school because I
saw that as a legitimizing forces.
Speaker 4 (23:45):
I was becoming more aware of my.
Speaker 6 (23:47):
Queerness and my transness, not understanding how I would exist
in a world that you know, fundamentally rejected transgressions. Uh uh,
you know, people's transgressions from the gender binary. I mean
went to college at the height of the backlash to
the very early successes of fights for marriage equality after
Massachusetts legalized same sex marriage in two thousand and three.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
You know, you had the George W.
Speaker 6 (24:10):
Bush years where more than half the country constitutionally bans marriage.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
Equality for same sex couples.
Speaker 6 (24:15):
And so as you're growing up and coming of age
in his time, for me, my question was, well, who
am I going to be and how am I gonna
How am I going to find a way to navigate
in this world? And so I ultimately did become a lawyer,
both to serve my community as a transperson, to fight
as a trans lawyer for trans causes, but also, you know,
if I'm honest, to find a way to be someone
(24:38):
who could be seen and taken seriously in society and
that is something that I think it would be it
would be dishonest not to admit that that was part
of the journey. And I ultimately found my way to
the ACLU eleven years ago, and I've been here working
on behalf of LGBTQ rights and justice in the courts
(24:59):
and the legislatures and also in the public conversation. And
Laverne and I have worked closely together for the last
ten years or so because I think we both recognize
at the end of the day, you can fight every
single battle, and in the courts you can win some
of those battles, but if you're not changing people's empathetic impulses,
if you're not changing the cultural context, those those legal
(25:22):
and policy changes are not going to be durable. And
so so much of the work is about, you know,
the theater of the courtroom, but it's so much more
about the theater of society, and how are we going
to ultimately transform people's understanding of our relationship to each
other as human beings and and and our you know,
sort of deservedness of our humanity.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Connect Please, I want to add to that because I
think so much of what has brought us to this
moment is the sort of collision of media, media propaganda
that is literally affecting what's happening in the courts, the
propaganda that dehumanizes trans people on every single level. And
(26:06):
for me right now, it's so important that we understand
that what is what anti trans people have done very
successfully is dehumanized trans people through conversations about our focusing
on our bodies, focusing on transition, using sports, and through
that dehumanization they've been able to successfully take away our rights.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Chase is challenging these laws in the courts.
Speaker 2 (26:32):
We'll see what happens, but we a huge part of
this project needs to be rehumanizing, not just trans people,
but everybody.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
We are in a.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
Culture right now where we see so many people dehumanizing
each other. And Brene Brown reminds us in her book
Braving the Wilderness, at the beginning of every single genocide
was dehumanization. So we have to if we are interested
in not having genocides and celebrating the humanity of everyone,
(27:02):
we have to really look at the ways in which
we use dehumanizing language understanding. And it's not for me,
it's not about policing language, because I'm not a language police,
But I think I believe in freedom of speech, but
I think it's about understanding that when we talk about
trans people and reduce us to chromosomes or testosterone levels
or genitalia, that that is objectifying us, in dehumanizing us,
(27:26):
and that leads to the conditions that where our rights
can be taken away, where we can just be murdered
in streets with impunity and people are just like, well,
you're not human anyway, right. So the work, and this
is what I love about being an artist, and this
is what the work we can do in the media
is to humanize trans people. And we are an uphel
(27:48):
battle because there is a very organized right wing media
ecosystem that is committed to dehumanizing trans people. And I
think it's not just what trans people. We have to
be careful about how we use language about anyone we
disagree with. I believe that like so often it's so
easy when someone did that we disagree with, says something
(28:11):
or does something, that it becomes really easy to use
the humanizing language against them. And I think we have
to fight against that because when we dehumanize other people,
we dehumanize ourselves.
Speaker 7 (28:27):
If you are inspired by today's episode. Please join us
in supporting six degrees dot org by texting the word
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(28:52):
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Speaker 1 (28:59):
Chase, you brought this up about, you know, a culture building,
a culture of empathy and a culture of understanding that
that somehow, some sometimes does not exist in our society.
And you know, I am the perfect demographic for the
person that sometimes looks at and I've heard this from
(29:24):
from people that I know. You know, look, they look
at something like a way of speaking, you know, pronouns
or or or or language that you mentioned language Laverne,
And the reaction is, oh, wow, I can't say anything anymore,
you know what I mean? It's that it's that point
of view of wanting desperately to hold on to some
(29:49):
kind of idea of what the status quo is. And
I wonder for both of you, how do you address that?
I mean, just just to. In my opinion, the idea
that you can learn something new when you're an old guy, right,
is the most beautiful possibility there is in the world.
(30:11):
You can learn to adjust your way of thinking. That's
how you stop dying. Really, you know, that's that's that's
what that's what you know when you when you're stuck
in one sort of mindset, you've got one foot in
the grape. So I'm just wondering if you have any
suggestions and how to deal with that when that comes up.
(30:32):
And when you hear that, oh my gosh, I can't
you know, yeah.
Speaker 6 (30:36):
I mean, I guess my initial response to the idea
when people say, well, we can't say anything anymore. You
can do You can say whatever you want. It's just
whether there are consequences to what you say. And that's
the reality is that there are. We live in a
society where norms change, the consequences of our actions change.
It's like when we have conversations about acceptable levels of
(30:57):
violence against women in the workplace, for you know, this
reaction of men and the saying, well, now I can't.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Talk to a woman. It's like, well, I have a
lot of questions.
Speaker 6 (31:07):
It does that you can't talk because because what you're
you are incapable of talking to a woman without these
certain things, or you're afraid of these consequences. We have
to have a more robust conversation about what what people
are saying they can and can't do. And often what
that means is there are different consequences for me doing
a certain thing. You can still choose to do it,
you just then have a different set of consequences. But
(31:28):
I think what's really hard. I mean, I think about
myself as a parent and so many other parents. I
think if you ask people what is one reason you
have kids, and I think a lot of people will
say it is really beautiful to see the world anew
to experience a newness to things that you become jaded on.
And this is an example of that, Like we want
the world to change. How Like to your point, Kevin,
(31:51):
how dull and uninteresting a life if nothing changes as
you age.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
And into your your your older adult years.
Speaker 6 (31:59):
And so it's on the one hand, you want to
have kids and you want to see the world a
new but you want to control all of the contours
of that. I think that that's, you know, a contradiction
in terms and I would say, you know, yes, there
are moments when I have an eleven year old and
I'm like, I have no idea what you're talking about,
but our impulse to say and therefore I want to
dismiss it instead of to say, Wow, how much more
exciting could my world be?
Speaker 4 (32:21):
You know comes from a place of fear, and people
are often fearful of what they don't understand, and that
makes sense, but I think we're all much more enriched
when we say, huh, what would it look like to
incorporate that into my sense of possibility? Instead of trying
to keep things exactly as how I feel most comfortable.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
I may, I may, I may I. I mean, I
hear it all the time.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
I consume tons of media and like people are constantly saying,
you can't say anything anymore. People are so sensitive And
again I'm not I mean, I'm an artist and I
believe in freedom of speech. But for me, when I
I had a moment on Twitter many years ago, and
I'm from Alabama and my homestate passed a crazy abortion restriction,
(33:05):
and I retweeted a friend who said a woman's body
a woman's choice in a story, and then a transman
tweeted me and said, you're really going to erase transmen
and non binary people in this tweet Laverta.
Speaker 3 (33:17):
I was just like, oh no, here we go. And
it was a moment.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
I just remember feeling it was so uncomfortable and I
felt like called out and I felt so it was
so uncomfortable and so awkward, and I remember tweeting I
was like, thank you for pointing this out. I'll take
this into consideration, I really and I thought about a
lot about it, and at the moment, in the moment,
I was like, oh god, I don't know if people
want to think about transman being pregnant right now. And
so I had all these things and I was like,
(33:42):
can I have a moment of solidarity with my you know, sisters?
And it was like but then what that moment was about,
though for me it's someone who was interested in the
humanity of trans people, is that, like, I don't want
to erase the experience of trans people. So it's not
about like this trans guy being super sensitive. It's about
(34:07):
me wanting to make him feel included and make him
feel like he's being seen. And there are real life
consequences when we don't when people who can get pregnant
and their healthcare needs are not being addressed because they
don't identify as women. So there actually are material consequences
(34:31):
when we don't consider consider people.
Speaker 3 (34:35):
And so the language piece.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Language is how we communicate and how we relate information.
It's not about not being able to say something for me.
It's about understanding the consequences of what we say and
how it affects the real lived experiences of people.
Speaker 1 (34:53):
These are really tiny adjustments when you really look at
it in the bigger picture of things. These are not hardships.
To try to address somebody in the way that they
would be more comfortable being addressed. To try to keep
your hands to yourself, you know, to try to think about,
you know, not not joking in the way that you
(35:14):
joked around on the set in the eighties, you know
what I mean, whatever happens to be, they're not really big,
huge adjustments to make. Let's face it. I mean, they're
they're they're they're they're easy.
Speaker 2 (35:25):
Sometimes there are moments are of discomfort that one might have.
That the moment on Twitter when I was called out
publicly by this transman, it was very uncomfortable, and so I.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
Think we being able to sit.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
With discomfort and being able to distinguish between being uncomfortable
and being shamed or being you know, having some granularity
around what's what we're feeling and having some sort of
self awareness and self accountability I think becomes really important.
And then also being able to interrogate our own relationship
to power.
Speaker 3 (35:58):
And I think that.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
I sort of hate the phrase check your privilege, but
I think it's important for It's been very important for me.
Is I've you know, even as a black trans woman
from a working class background that like now as a
famous person, as a person with some class privilege that
I have, I'm privileged now. So it's like me constantly
being willing and willing to be uncomfortable to interrogate my
(36:28):
privilege is to hold myself accountable, to try to be
accountable to the people in my life, to my to
the public platform that I have, and the people that
I represent, to try to be accountable and like all
of that is really can be really uncomfortable and very difficult,
(36:48):
but hopefully we can begin to do that with the
people in our lives and our inner circles, and maybe
I would love to I'm trying to do this publicly.
I'm trying as much as possible model way in which
we can publicly create safe space so that we can
have conversations where people don't shut down and feel attacked
(37:08):
and so then go into defense mode.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
Well, well, speaking with a lot, Well no, I'm I
you do a lot of work in terms of being
public about all of these things, which, which you know, listen,
is fantastic. We we don't all do. Chase, you're here
with the A. C. L U and I. I've kept
(37:32):
you guys for so long, and I really do appreciate
you both being here, but I'm curious from you, Chase,
at this moment in time. It's two pronged question. Number one,
what are the most pressing issues that we have right
now in the in this country and in the world,
and most specifically our call to action? How can people
help and get get involved and and uh and and
(37:56):
you know, try to turn things around.
Speaker 4 (37:59):
Well, we went from a situation where there was zero
laws in.
Speaker 6 (38:04):
Twenty twenty one that banned healthcare for transgender adolescence.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Zero.
Speaker 6 (38:09):
So in the span of two years, we went from
zero laws to now we have twenty two states that
categorically ban evidence based medicine for transgender adolescence. And I
think what's important for people to understand, especially for parents
to understand, is this is a healthcare that's only being
prescribed with the consent of parents and the recommendation of
every major medical association in the United States, and the
(38:31):
state is coming in and saying we know better, we're
going to take away that one option. And what that's
done is to take away healthcare that people have been
relying on in almost half the country, increasing the demand
on other states if people can even travel to other states,
but also for those who can't, are making it close
to impossible. And obviously there's an outside sense of sort
(38:53):
of how many young people are getting this care because
of how much coverage there is, but of course it's
a very very.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Small percentage of people. But the state our life or death.
Speaker 6 (39:01):
And so right now we're fighting in the courts trying
to stop the state, just like in the context of abortion,
just like in the contexts of other restrictions on bodily autonomy,
stop to state from intruding on our ability to make
the decisions with our parents, with our children that are
best for us in accordance with the recommendations.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
Of our doctors. We are now asking the Supreme Court
to review one of these cases. Many there may be.
Speaker 6 (39:26):
Several cases involving transgender rights going up to the Supreme Court,
So the states could not be higher as well as
of course, we're building up to a presidential election. We
know that some of the candidates running are some of
the most anti transpoliticians in the country, including Nicki Haley,
including Governor DeSantis, including Donald Trump.
Speaker 4 (39:43):
And so what does it mean if you shift the executive.
Speaker 6 (39:45):
And you have people who fundamentally want to eradicate trans
life leading our country.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
So that is the nature of the threat. It truly
is life or death.
Speaker 6 (39:55):
And just as a reminder, people are trying to take
away our ability to determine that's right for us.
Speaker 4 (40:01):
This doesn't concern them.
Speaker 6 (40:03):
You know, one person's medical care that they and their
parents and their doctor agree is necessary does not implicate
another person's life, safety, or freedom.
Speaker 4 (40:11):
But taking it away from us does implicate ours. So
as a call to action, and.
Speaker 6 (40:15):
Just to make it brief, I would say, first and foremost,
we all have the ability to change the circumstances and
conversations in our lives and communities.
Speaker 4 (40:22):
So you know, to your point, Kevin, when you're on set, if.
Speaker 6 (40:25):
You're in your kids school, just make more room for
people to exist, because so much of this is playing
out in the public discourse. So don't say I can't
use the pronouns like you use a pronouns all the time.
Speaker 4 (40:37):
Is there a package coming today, Yeah, they're bringing it
in an hour. We do it. It's actually very common.
And in the second we shut something down, we just
make less space.
Speaker 6 (40:46):
So maybe it takes you a little while, maybe it
is hard, but how can we make more space in
our lives? And then also, you know, give money when
you can, share resources when you can, and think about
your political engagement, not just at the federal level, but at.
Speaker 4 (40:59):
This local level as well.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Thank you.
Speaker 6 (41:01):
So much is happening in our school boards, so much
is happening in our city council. So much is happening
in our state legislatures.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
That's so true. It's so true. On the state level,
it's so important.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
And I can just add the fight is happening on
the state level. But desantists Trump have both said that
they will ban gender firm and care nationally.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
They are committed to that.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
If we have a Republican president they plan to ban
gender firming care nationally. And it's not just for about children,
it's everyone. There are states now that are banning gender
firm and care also for adults. And what I would
say to that, for everyone who's out there who wants
to say, well, I think whether or not trans children
should access gender or firming care that's up for debate,
(41:43):
I would say it's not. As Chase said, this care
is Every major medical association says that this care is
healthy and it is safe, and politicians should not be
involved in that period. Point blank, My existence, my access
to healthcare should not be up for debate. It is
none of your business. And I would love for people
(42:04):
to say, when they hear people say this, we should
be debating this.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
No, we should not.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
We should allow trans people to exist on their own terms,
have conversations with their doctors, with their parents, and the
government should have nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1 (42:19):
It's been absolutely up thrilling to hear both of you
and your obviously personal and heartfelt opinions and the work
that you're doing on this very very very important issue.
(42:41):
Hey guys, thanks for listening to another episode of Six
Degrees with Kevin Bacon and If you want to learn
more about how the ACLU is fighting for trans rights
and how you can get involved, head to their website
ACLU dot org. You can find all the links in
our show notes. Like what you hear, make sure you
(43:01):
subscribe to the show and tune into the rest of
our episodes so you can find Six Degrees with Kevin
Bacon on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
See you next time.
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