March 19, 2024 • 45 mins
A master of mind and medicine, author and alternative medicine advocate Deepak Chopra is our guest in this episode. This enlightening episode features Kevin and Deepak seeking to understand each others perspective on everything from spirituality to mental health. They are joined by Poonacha Machaiah, CEO of The Chopra Foundation as they dive into the work they are doing for at-risk youth, women, and prisoners.
To learn more and get involved with TheChopraFoundation, head to TheChopraFoundation.org. To support more initiatives like this program, text 'BACON' to 707070 or head to SixDegrees.org to learn more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
A folks, today's guest is very very well known. This
is a much different guest than I normally have one.
And if you had told me that I would be
sitting down with one of the leading thought leaders of
our time, I wouldn't have believed you. It's just definitely
not my john. The Deepak Chopra is a global leader
(00:23):
and pioneer in the field of mind body medicine. It's
got so much insight into the spiritual, the physical, mental worlds.
Turn up the volume a bit. I'm glad you're here. Well,
(00:45):
I'm very excited to today welcome my guest, Deepak Chopra.
These are words that I never really thought would be
leaving my mouth here on a podcast. First off, I
never even imagined that I would be doing a podcast
when I got into this line of work, and certainly
(01:07):
that I would have such an esteemed guest with me today.
It's very nice to meet you, sir. I know that
a lot of people, you know, there's a silly six
degrees of Kevin Bacon thing that has been going on
for a lot of years, and we actually believed or
not have a connection through the film business because of
the love Guru. So my first question for you is
(01:31):
how was how did you feel about acting? What was
what was your experience with being a performer.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
You know, Mike has been a very good friend to me,
and when he came out with this idea, I wanted
to support the idea, but you know, it's not my
kind of humor and spend filming it was quite tiring
(01:59):
to daddy the truth and I'm not you know, I
like to speak on stage, but I'm not really an actor.
But it was an interesting experience.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Well, it's interesting that you say that because I think
that you know, I have listened to you, you know,
quite a bit speaking, uh, and and and seeing you
also not in person but online speaking and while you're
not an actor, uh, there is something about your full persona,
(02:31):
your voice where it is placed, all those elements of
what you put out in the world that have a
very very powerful effect. I guess my point is that
you know, beyond the words that that you say, there's
also a there is an element of that's just you
that is powerful. Are you Are you kind of aware
(02:52):
of that that it's, for lack of a better word, charismatic.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I kind of became a flure through comments from people
like yourselves, you know. But I was not aware of
that growing up. Although in high school I was a
professional debater, and I you know, I did a lot
of that in college and in medical school too, so
(03:18):
I do have that background of engaging in dialogue and
debate as a student in school and medical school and
even thereafter.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Well, speaking of background, where are you from? Where were
you born?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I was born in New Delhi. I went to high
school in New Delhi, and then I went to the
medical school that at that time and even now is
considered very prestigious in India. They take only fifty students
a year from all over India. It's called the All
India Institute of Medical Sciences. And then as soon as
(03:59):
I finished my school, I was only twenty two, I
came to the United States and worked in community hospital
in New Jersey. But fortunately the next year I got
fellowships and residencies in Boston at various institutions associated with
(04:24):
Harvard and Boston University and Tufts, and so I did
my training in Boston, four years of residency and three
years of fellowship, so that was seven years. And then
I started teaching at at the three universities medical schools,
mainly endochronology and neuroindochronology, which is the study of brain chemistry.
(04:48):
So this was in seventies when people didn't know much
about neurochemicals like serotonin and dopamine and oxytocin and opiates.
But we were right in the frontier. My mentor was
Simour Reichlan, who was the number one endochronologist in the
world at that time.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
He was the.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
President of the Endocrine Society. He's now ninety seven, by
the way, and if he catches a snake in his garden,
he still dissects the brain looking for neurochemicals. But it
was my insight as a result of my training with
these molecules, was that one day one of my colleagues,
(05:29):
Can Despert, who later became the head of brain chemistry
at the NIH, She said, these are the molecules of emotion,
and you know that kind of hit me. I said,
you should write a book about them. She said, I
will if you write the forwards. So she wrote this book,
Molecules of Emotion, and I actually did the forward. It
(05:51):
became a best seller that got me into my book
Quantum Healing nineteen eighty eight. And even though it was
vilified by my colleagues and medical schools, which they felt
it was totally outlandish or whatever. It also was very
popular with the public. So that was my forain into
(06:15):
mind body medicine, which then became integrated medicine, and then
deeper understanding of what we call consciousness and spirit. And
this year or thirty five years later, I along with
a couple of colleagues, including a quantum biologist who's at
the University of Calgary also in Poland in Europe, and
(06:39):
another colleague, Brian Fertig, who's neuroindochronologists like myself, we published
last week Quantum Body, which now brings the science into
what I was saying in nineteen eighty eight. So since
ninety eight, in eighty eight, there's a lot of science
(07:00):
on what we call epigenetics, neuroplasticity, and even you know,
the quantum effects in our body as a result of
a more fundamental experience of existence, which is going beyond
the mind into what we call the spiritual consciousness. Somehow
(07:22):
that begins to kick in self regulation and homeostasis in
the body. And so we have a science, you know,
and now the science is easy to check because anybody objects.
We say, go to AI or go to Google Bard
or whatever and check out the science yourself. I don't
have to defend what I was saying thirty five years ago.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Well, I mean that brings up so many thoughts for me.
But I'll just speak from a personal level. I mean,
I am someone who kind of goes. I'm sort of
open to all different ways to stay healthy and to
fix things.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
If I use traditional medicine. I have a traditional medicine doctor. Uh,
you know, I will if if I feel sick or
something's going on. I'm I'm very good about showing up
and taking blood work and you know, doing all those things.
I'm not in any way anti it, but I also
sometimes go to alternative sources whatever they happen to be different,
(08:31):
you know what some people would call, you know, insane
kind of methods, meditation, you know, whatever it happens to be.
In the course of my life, there's been like, you know,
herbal kind of things and acupuncture, all kinds of stuff.
But what I find a lot of times is that
(08:52):
both of these sides of this particular issue are sort
of at odds with each other or disdainful of the
different kind of practices on both sides that there's a
lot of people that who are in you know, alternative
medicines that really you know, pooh pooh are disdained you know,
traditional medicine. And and you know, on the flip side,
(09:15):
you go to the doctor and you say, hey, you know, uh,
you know, i have this, you know, pain in my throat.
I've been taking you know, you know whatever, zinc or something,
and he goes, yeah, yeah, great whatever, you know it
doesn't want to hear about it. So I'm wondering, as
someone who comes from you were trained and you know
clearly very successful as a as a doctor in internal
(09:36):
medicine and the chronology, and then you've discovered this kind
of other connection, how do you balance those two types
of things? And which world is it that or do
you feel yourself on a bridge between two worlds?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Not really, Kevin, So, just to put things in perspective,
I currently have a professorship in three medical schools, University
of California, San Diego, Mount Sinai in New York, and
University of Central Florida in Orlando. So I teach, and
right now it's very popular this what is called integrated
(10:13):
medicine with medical students that they are offered electives and
there's always a waiting list. So I no longer say
this is alternative, but this is an integrative.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
It's old list.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Say I think good medicine is that which works. Spirit
So medicine that works is good medicine. It doesn't matter
where it comes from. If it's you know, if it's
Eastern Western to me, doesn't matter. Having said that, what
we call traditional medicine as taught in medical schools for
(10:50):
the most part, although now medical schools are getting into
what they call integrated medicine. But in general, it's very
clear that mainstream medical intervention, which includes antibiotics, includes chemotherapy, radiation, surgery,
now immunotherapy, and many other things. Mainstream medicine is extremely
(11:15):
effective in acute illness. So if you have pneumonia, you
better take an antibiotic. If you break your leg, you
should see an orthopedic surgeon, et cetera. If you have appendicitis,
that's an acute situation which needs intervention. So what we
call reductionist medicine Western medicine is based on understanding the
(11:37):
mechanisms of illness at a very precise level. So you
know how bacteria multiplied. Then you have a precision medicine
to interfere with that, whatever it is antibiotics, etc. Now immunotherapy.
There are major breakthroughs.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
In medicine right now.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
The first one is AI, which can put together every
biomarker and link it to everything that's happening in your life,
your sleep patterns, your stress, et cetera. So AI is
a breakthrough in modern medicine. Gene editing is a breakthrough
in modern medicine. You'll be able to cut and paste
genes the same way you cutt and based emails. You
(12:19):
metaphorically speaking, you'll be able to read the barcode of
a gene and delete the gene that's causing say, baraka
gene cancer. You replace it with a normal gene Wallah.
So that's second major breakthrough. The third major breakthrough in
(12:40):
modern medicine is what we call messenger RNA, where you
can create, hopefully in the near future, vaccines for chronic
illness everything from heart disease to cancer, to diabetes to Alzheimer's.
So that's another major breakthrough. The fourth major breakthrough is
(13:00):
what we call the microbiome, which is the two million
extra genes you have in addition to human genes. We
can change the population of the genes through diet and
many other interventions. So that's a breakthrough. And the fifth
breakthrough is psychedelics, and you know that's happening in the
consciousness research. Those are very important breakthroughs in modern medicine. However,
(13:25):
when you look at the spectrum of disease, ninety five
percent or more disease is not due to what we
call fully penetrent genes. They are only less than five
percent of all disease, which includes cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's, diabetes,
you name it. Ninety five percent or more is not
(13:48):
due to what we call fully penetrent genes, for which
you will have this gene editing and so forth. Ninety
percent of disease is epigenetically or strated epigenetic. Above the genes,
there's a sheet of proteins called his stones, and so
imagine my fist as this his stone protein DNA is
(14:12):
wrapped around this, and every experience you have doesn't matter
what the experience is. Right now, we are having an
intellectual conversation. Your genes in your brain frontal godix are
being activated. Sure, not only those genes, but anyone who's
listening to us. Their genes are being activated, which means
our minds are affecting energy information, genetic activity in different
(14:38):
parts of our body depending on the experience. So if
this was an emotional experience, you know, then you know
you're in love, then some other part of your brain
would be activated, and gene activity would be activated and
neural networks would change. This is something we did not
know twenty years ago. You know, intuitively, these Eastern tick
(15:00):
niques have tapped into it, you know, and Iveda and
Chinese medicine even and indigenous medical practices. They tapped into
the idea that when you change experience, you change biology.
And so you know, Western medicine's being dismissive of this
because they say, oh, you're not it's place ebo. But
(15:20):
that's a term that we use when you don't know
what's happening. Now we know what's happening. Genes are being
activated precisely. So when you sleep, certain genes get activated.
When you have an emotional experience, certain genes get activated.
When you manage your stress. Either way, it stress causes
genes to activate that cause inflammation. But when you have joy.
(15:45):
Other genes are activated. Every experience modulates the activity of
the change. What happens is these proteins they move around,
and then certain genes get closer to each other, certain
genes get far from each other. They're literally genetic switches.
Like the lights in my room. Now you know, I
(16:05):
have a computer, I have a light, I have a microwave,
let's say, and depending on what I need, the appropriate
appliances will get activated. There's a computer in consciousness, call
it a cosmic computer whatever, that is constantly monitoring your
experience in trying to regulate your body, you know. But
(16:26):
we kind of sometimes interfare with that through lack of sleep,
for example, or a dysfunctional relationship or an improper diet.
And now we not only know the gene activity, but
also the part of the autonomic nervous system, which we
call the parasympathetic nervous system, which is activated by all
these techniques, whether it's yoga or breathing, or chanting or
(16:49):
singing or meditation or mind body coordination or tai chi
or chigong or what you call you know, acuper pressure.
So looking at the new era where we can combine
everything that we know in Western medicine, with everything that
we know in these healing traditions, and there's a science.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
That's that's I love the book.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Now want to body.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I love that. You know.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I had a experience many years ago where I was
a young man, uh and I was, you know, suffering
from a tremendous amount of back pain, low back pain,
and uh, you know, to the point where like I'd
be driving down the road, I had to pull the
car over and lie on the ground that it was
(17:39):
but just it would literally like make me cry. And
I heard about this book, the Sarno Book, and I
remember I was on vacation. My back was killing me,
and I started reading this book and literally as I'm
reading it, my backstart stopped hurting.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
And you know, back book.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Was a good friend of mine, do it was?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
He yeah, yeah, I mean it changed my life, honestly,
and I've I've continued to you know, share that book
with with people, you know, because especially with backs.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
You know, he talked about.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
The you know, the fear that we have around and
we always think that it's there's something wrong with your
spine or you know, whatever it is, and this is
not the ascount people that have true spin as you've
pointed out, true things that need to be fixed, you know,
true spinal injuries. But once I started to think about
it and to think about, you know, what was actually
(18:33):
going on in my life that that I wasn't quite
dealing with, things got a lot better. I mean, my
back got better. I don't know, I don't know my
life necessarily got better, but my back back got better
for that time. And I think about that, you know,
quite a bit now. But I have to ask you,
(18:54):
you know, I I sometimes when i'm I'm not I'm
not what I would call a spiritual person, right, I don't.
I don't have a religion. I don't have a religious practice.
I don't I do things, for instance, like meditate, and
(19:19):
sometimes I'll use you know, apps or or or you know,
you know, voices or things that I've subscribed to to
kind of walk me through it. But when it starts
to dip a little too far into some spirituality, I
kind of find myself pulling back from that. So I'm wondering, what, what,
(19:43):
what kind of advice you would have for somebody like me.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Let me.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Actually take you a little deeper on this, Okay, because
you shouldn't be afraid of exploring spirituality for the following reasons.
This is going in to the heart of two very
big scientific conundrums that we have today. If you go
(20:07):
on the Internet and you type out the following question,
what are the one hundred and twenty five open questions
and science today?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
There are one hundred and twenty five open questions and science.
By the way, you know, how did life begin?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
E said, But the first thing that comes up is
what is the universe made of? And I won't go
detailed into it. You would think that, you know, most
of the universe is gravity and particles and force fields,
and you know what we call atoms and molecules. Well,
that's point zero one percent of the universe, which is atomic.
(20:44):
The rest is dark energy doc matter, non atomic. We
can't even interact with it, so we have no idea
what it is point zero one percent of the visible universe,
which is two trillion galaxies one hundred you know, seven
hundred sixtillions. That's seven hundred followed by twenty one zeros.
And now they say uncountable trillions of probably habitable planets,
(21:09):
including sixty billion habitable planets just in the Milky Way
galaxy atomic. But the problem with atoms is or particles,
when you're not observing them, they disappear. They're not physical anymore.
They disappear into mathematical space, and they're called wave functions.
That's therefore the first question in size today's what's the
(21:32):
universe made of? And nobody knows what it's made of?
Zero They say it's made of nothing, which leads to
our second question in science, Then why does it.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Look like this?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
You know, like you and me and the computer and
the Milky Way galaxy and stars and trees and rocks
and animals. That's called the hard problem of consciousness. Now,
in the short time we have right now, we can't
go into detail, but there's an emerging science which we
call consciousness, which might be fundamental reality. Conscious not the mind,
(22:06):
it's not the body. It's that in which we experience
the mind and body. So if I ask you where
are you having this experience right now listening? You probably
point to your ears or your brain, But there's no
sound in your ears or your brain either. If I say,
where are you seeing my image the park on your screen?
(22:27):
Where is this experience happening? You might point to your eyes,
your brain, but there's no experience in your eyes in
your brain either, there are only chemical activities eellectual So
there's a growing body of evidence that experience happens, for
lack of a better word, in what we call awareness
or consciousness. Without awareness or consciousness, there's no experience. There's
(22:51):
no sound, there's no touch, no sight, no say it tastes,
no smell, no thought, no feeling, no emotion, no no ideas,
no creativity, no any no experience. So consciousness is that
which makes experience happen, and we don't know where it is.
So the spiritual traditions have said, if you go really
(23:13):
deep beyond your mind, you do encounter and experience where
you feel connected to everything ineffable, You lose the fear
of death, you have spontaneous emergence of what is called
platonic values like truth, goodness, beauty, harmony, and you actually
find your identity beyond space and time. Now this was
(23:36):
very difficult for people to explain in the past, because
you know, it did sounds so esoteric and so vague.
But now with all that we're learning from psychedelics and
so on, it looks like your brain is not the
orchestrator of experience. It's like it's like a radio set
which receives experience from another domain beyond space and time.
(23:59):
You don't have to call it God, you don't have
to call it spirit. Just call it it whatever it is.
But we are on a little planet, little planet in
the junkyard of infinity, and we think we figured it out.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
We have it.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
So the biggest experience you can have is a spiritual being.
Is astonishment, is wonder, is curiosity, and it's almost bewilderment.
Those are spiritual experiences because we don't know why there
is existence, or why there's awareness of existence. Because if
(24:34):
you weren't aware that you exist, then what's the point.
So these are very big questions and I think they
deserve exploring in every which way possible, whether it's through
Web three or artificial intelligence, or psychedelics or meditation, or
even the rituals that go with religion. Because those people
(24:57):
had an experience which was ineffable and they couldn't explain it,
and you know, the followers just were believing in the experience,
not having that experience on their own. If Buddha had
an experience, I don't want to worship the Buddha. I
want to know what that experience was or Jesus so well,
you know. So that's my take on spirituality. I would say,
(25:18):
take the plunge and explore it.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
You'll be surprised.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
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Speaker 1 (25:59):
Hey want to bring on Punacha Machaya.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
I love this name.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
He is the CEO of the Chopra Foundation, and I
want to talk about the work that you are doing
and that relates to everything that we're talking about here.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
No, thank you Kevin for the opportunity.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
I think Deepak when he started the foundation, Yeah, in
one vision he said, I want to reach a billion
plus people or a more peaceful, just sustainable, healthier and
joyful world as the sign me up. And so the
purpose of the Triple Foundation is to really make this
vision a reality. But where we really focused on right
(26:42):
now is in three areas as we speak in this
one hour podcast, more than sixty plus people would have died.
Mental health is one of the silent pandemics every forty
seconds blue some of the suicide globally in this great
country every eleven minutes every day below twenty two veterans
you know, to suicide. So one of the big movements
(27:03):
what we are looking at at the Foundation is how
do we really address this mental health And that's really
we've started a movement called Never Alone with our co
founders also Gabrielle right with Deepak, truly look at mental health,
but really look at this consciousness based approach. Like Deepak
always says, don't confuse yourself with your selfie and.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
I know who you are.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
And in the deep dark, when you know the deep
in the dark night of the soul, how do you
going to reach into that part of you to find
the resilience to transcend whatever you're going through at that point.
So that's really a big focus for us mental health
and the reason for that is also if you can
think about the second leading cause of death for my
young adults is dead by suicide?
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Isn't that a tragedy? Right? As we talk.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Sending people to Mars and we talk about all the
innovation and AI, a younger generation saying take me out
of here.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
I don't want to be part of this.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
So when you look at that, we realize that, Okay,
how do we talk to them?
Speaker 3 (28:00):
As you look at meditations, we believe.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
We need to talk through them gaming. How do you
look at gaming as a platform to talk to young adults.
So we're doing a lot of interesting work in gaming. Example,
let's say playing Fortnite or Call of Duty or Legal
Legends or Roadblocks. Don't tell kids not to play the game,
because obviously they're connecting with that. How do you change
the mechanics in between games? How can we teach them
(28:23):
focus attention, so mini games between games. So that's a
focus for us and Deepark touched on this. On psychedelics,
we really believe that if medication's not working, but there's
an entire domain of psychedelics which is really creating a
profound effect on mental health, how do they kind of
bring these education in awareness. So that's part of mental health.
(28:45):
The second area which we have focused on is Deepark's
bodio work over the last four decades, is how do
you transform human well being? And very specifically, if we're
looking at health span, people are obviously doing a lot
of work and longevity. People will live longer, that's modern science,
live better. How do we improve health span quality of life?
(29:05):
So we say we want the wisdom of age and
the biology of youth. So as people live longer, how
do you talk about purpose, your relationship with time, and
how do you kind of give these knowledge and information.
So that's a big focus for us in the Foundation.
And the third area of focus for us is.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
How can we in these times.
Speaker 4 (29:26):
Have a leadership crisis globally and globally we believe there's
a lack of trust. People don't trust anything these days
and that really did ritic correlation to leadership, personal and
professional leadership.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
So we have a program.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Which they Parkash to teach at calag and Columbia over
the last fifteen years and we are already taking that
to the global caordiance.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Called the Soul of Leadership.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
So connecting with not your LinkedIn profile, we can always
google that, sure, but what do we look at the
soul profile? Who are you as a person, how do
you lead from that? So these are the three areas
which we are broadly focused on in the foundation.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
And then how do you in in the day to
day work? How how do how are you implementing these
ideas and how are you spreading spreading this these these
these ideas.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
So then we say it takes a village to you know,
bring up a child. So what we're doing is creating
global collaborations.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
So we have the content be of the knowledge. That's
what we are very good at.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
So example, so we're taking the knowledge on mental health
and we're taking it to Africa. We're raising awareness for
something called FGM, female genital mutilation. But how now when
somebody has gone through that trauma, how can we use
our programs, our meditation, our content and enable people in
those communities to use it. So that's one example example.
(30:44):
On leadership, we have actually uh op on on our website.
We go to c FI dot Chopra Foundation dot org.
CFI dot Choprofoundation dot org.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
You will see two courses.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
One of the courses is called the Soul of Leadership.
We we're offering it free and this is through a
grant from Robert Smith's Foundation. We believe everybody needs to
be their own leader, so that's a free program we
are offering. We also have a program called Peace is
the Way. Our goal is to really create global peace facilitators.
If you can work in your community and then really
(31:17):
work through your community, become a facilitator. So our goal
is to enable those programs and content, and that's really
how we are building alliances. We're working in India through
our collaborations over there, in Australia, in Spain, in Majorca,
obviously doing a lot.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Of work in London.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
A good example of this would be announced a collaboration
with Stella McCartney on equine therapy, right, and equint therapy
is something, but as as you look at mental health,
everybody has a different way. Like you said, people find
what they want, what resonates with them. But if you
be a young adult, you know you could don't have
access to psychedelics. Maybe we want to look at VR therapy.
We're working with that too. We're working with the leading
(31:54):
anxiety expert from Harvard to look at anxiety and VR
in the brain.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
But maybe it's just easing equin So yeah, I would
say a.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Platora of tools, products and services which you're enabling other
third parties to use.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
I love that you are.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I mean when you mentioned the gaming and the psychedelics,
I love that you're You're you're not drawing a line
in the sand in terms of these things, because you know,
in a lot of ways with this stuff, the horses
out of the barn and both of you have mentioned
AI and it makes me think about, you know, this
(32:33):
is not exactly AI, but I'm the intersection of this
incredible technology tsunami that we've experienced in the last you
know whatever, fifteen twenty years. It's it's it's I'm not
the first to say that it can be completely overwhelming,
but just to share a story for me that I
(32:55):
was thinking about. You know, a lot of times, if
I am going to meditate in the middle of the day,
I have a.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Sound which is a.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Light a light rain falling in a rainforest that I
that I like. And I was listening to it, and
there's there's some birds kind of like you know, kind
of tropical birds. They're overlaid on this sound, and I
go back to it all the time just because it's
a good one for me. Whatever, and all of a sudden,
(33:27):
I realized that I put in my headset and I
turned my phone on, and I realized that there was
a light rain falling where I was, and there were birds,
and I didn't need this thing in my hand, this
piece of machinery, and these things in my ears. So
(33:47):
and it was such a simple moment, but it kind
of made me go, why am I so wrapped up in.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Trying to.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Stay somehow technologically connected to something? Is it keeping me
from you know, being pride, from hearing, from seeing nature,
from experiencing people and people's faces and their eyes and
their voices and all this other stuff. So I'm wondering
about the kind of the intersection. Maybe you could speak
(34:22):
on this deep ok between you know, technology and spiritualism.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, of course, you know when we were growing up,
when I was growing up, you know, by fourteen fifteen,
there were no computers. In fact, when I came to
the country, I had never to the United States nineteen seventy.
I had never seen a television set in my life.
And then, you know, while it was in color, I
was totally bewildered by the technology. Then came fax machines,
(34:52):
Then came the Internet, all, you know, in my lifetime.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
There I miss a good facts machine. I miss a
good fax machine, or a.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Kid who grew up in India with no access to this.
My teenage years were full of adventure, you know, going
to the jungle with my father to look at tigers
and even go tiger hunts, going to the Himalias in
the summer in this and climbing mountains. There was total
(35:25):
exposure to nature.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
From then.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I see these poor kids now in this country, especially
COVID and post after, who think that the world exists
on a computer.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
They're not nowhere there.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
So I think giving them these tools, a little bit
like gaming, like we are experiences actually can make them
more interested in actually going for the real thing too,
you know. And there is when I was educated as
a child, even in India, there was poetry, there was music,
(36:02):
there was dance, there was ballet, there was storytelling, there
was theater, There was adventures in nature. And yes there
was sport too, but it wasn't the kind of sport
where you will you get a scholarships and make a
lot of money and that becomes the motivation. It was
sport for the joy of sport, music for the joy
(36:23):
of music. You know poetry, Well, how many kids these
days listen to poetry or even can quote Shakespeare or
ts Eliot. So you know, our education with all emphasis
or technology, engineering, science, mathematics. While it's good it makes
(36:43):
people nerds and experts to get a Nobel prize, it
deprives them of their humanity. We are actually a society
that has deprived our kids of their humanity.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
They don't even know what it means to be human.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Also, Deepog's point came, and I think it's conscious use
of technology. So what we're saying is that you're playing
a game. Yes, what I cannot get the kid playing
Fortnite play Fortnite, but imagine I could teach you how
to breathe. So when you get short in Fortnite, imagine
that the tip it tells you this is how you
activate your breathwork so you can get to the next level.
So between games, we can make them more conscious. So
(37:21):
don't change the game. But while you design the game,
let's be more conscious. Because I'm the generation which came
with fast internet and mobile phones, we trought addiction. Maybe
in this age of AI, we can create more conscious AI.
And I think we had a very interesting intersection because,
like Deepug always says, we have medieval mindset but very
(37:44):
godlike technologies at our disposal. So we better be conscious
as a global community how we.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Leverage but also put it to good use.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
I think today just think about it, every forty seconds
we lose someone to suicide globally. The are not enough
therapists in this country. It takes six weeks to get appointment.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
That's based on statistics. We have to use technology during
the pandemic.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
The foundation we deployed any being a technology di chatbot,
we thought maybe left twenty thousand users. Maybe, you know,
we had more than twenty six million messages exchanged on
the platform, sixteen million minutes of conversation and four eight
hundred suicidal ideation interventions.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Right, this is on a simple chatbot.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
But now that can be used for good. How do
we use it as an intervention? Because I think there
is a certain amount of use of technolo. This is
the use of technology using zoom, right, but we shouldn't
be dependent on that as the only means of communication.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Share shared with Kevin whatfit did with the mayor of Mammy.
You know, yes, he and this have bonded it now
because we created a game for them on roadblocks.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
So we're basically thinking, you know, when you think.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
About gaming, he said, okay, it's this and that, right,
you cannot game. So we said, we go to roadblocks.
Everybody is on roadblocks. Why don't we create yoga and
meditation on zuo roadblocks And we said, let's kind of
use that as a platform. And now the father and
son can both play together. Right, and those are things
experiences like father and son used to go camping. Maybe
(39:16):
now we go to go a little bit of a
given take father and son player game together and then
they go camping.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Right, I think this.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Bonding, we have to also meet in the middle. It's
not this or that. I think that train has left
the station. Like we are doing a lot of things
in immersive meditations these days. With the technology is brain
and trainment. Right when you go, when you use light,
photoic stimulation, sound by neuural beats, we can shift change
your reality. So when meditation used to be an ice
(39:46):
closed experience one on one, we worked with a company
to create this immersive experiences, which we believe now it's
going to be the collective shared experience.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
As we go to the future amazing.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
What would you say is the most pressing need that
the organization has. Now you've spoken a lot about mental health.
I suppose it's it's mental health and mostly or partly
amongst young people.
Speaker 4 (40:09):
I would say it's both ends of the spectrum. I
think the younger suffering and the older suffering. Right, I
think it's both ends of the spectrum. So one ENVI
have mental health among young adults. We also have a
very big issue with cognitive decline arkinsas Alzeiber's design dementia.
So our goal of the foundation look at both. I
look at this end of the spectrum. It's loneliness, right,
(40:30):
How do we create community? And I think, Deepuk, we
have a program called Love and Action where we want
to create love as the operating system of communities. We
really be separated the young and the old right when
they actually maybe it should be together. And so when
we want to kind of this the other program go
Love and Action. When Deepuk, maybe you want to share
this is the four tenants of how communities can come together?
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Deepug? Do you want to share that?
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah? Well, you know in Eastern wisdom traditions they say
when you have shared vision, when you have maximum diversity participants,
ethnic diversity, racial diversity, diversity in education, storytelling, humanity, science experts.
So shared vision maximum diversity, leveraging each other's strengths because
(41:19):
we all have different strengths and a spiritual and emotional
bond of some kind, then you can solve any problem.
So I took that seriously and we created this thing
called Never Alone dot Love and basically we connect people
with each other and we have four things that we
talk about. Attention deep listening to each other, Affection, deep
(41:42):
caring for each other, appreciation, noticing everyone's uniqueness, and radical
acceptance doesn't matter who you are, you know, binary, non bordinary, black, white, yellow, whatever.
Radical acceptance of everyone. And so you know, this is
part of our attempt now to create both global online
(42:04):
and offline communities of support for each other. Attention, affection,
appreciation and acceptance. And they also combine it with leadership.
So you know, recently I was in Sweden and I
had no idea that in Sweden there's an African Swedish
population much like African American population, which is very marginalized,
(42:26):
where crime rate is high, unemployment is high, illness is high,
depression is high. So you know, I started to work
with them, and it turned out that the Obama former
President Obama, has a forum called Global leaders and we
worked with them in Sweden to actually create a new
(42:47):
leadership for the Swedish American community. We've done the same
here in Queens in New York, where the crime rate
actually went down by ninety nine percent, so much so
that you know, Ponacha and I have now worked are
working with the school system in New York and in
(43:09):
corporate leadership training for young people, because I think you
give them purpose, you give them passion, you give them connectivity,
and you create an emotional bond. The best example is
sports teams. They have shared vision. You know, at least
in sports like we say baseball or not baseball, football
(43:30):
and other sports soccer.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
You have those elements.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
You know, everybody's supporting each other, they're emotionally connected, they
want to win all they're not even competing with each other.
They're leveraging each other's strengths. That's a great model for leadership.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
I gotta say, I think this is all great, great
work that you guys are doing, and it's been an
absolutely fascinating conversation. I'm going to be mentally tuning on
this for some time. What is the This is a
call to action now, I mean how can.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
People get involved?
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Could be pitch the websites and and and and let's
let's hear how how people can check out this great work.
Speaker 4 (44:11):
I think we have a website with Schoprofoundation dot org,
which I did to share in the link.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Okay, that are We also.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
Have a platform called CFI CFI dot Chopra Foundation dot org.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Courses.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
We have the Soul of Leadership course and Piece of
the Way course if people can go on sign up
and roll and we also everybody updated on our website
on a newsletter, subscribe and.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
We will keep them updated.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
And also right back to us, I think it's co creation,
right we as we co create together for more peaceful,
just sustainable, healthy and joyful world. And your platform with
what you are doing, is also a great enabler for
us to share this message.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Well, I want to thank you both so much for
being here today, and I, like I said, it's been
a fascinating conversation and I think I'm going to have
to listen back to this one to kind of reabsorb
some of the things that we spoke about. And so
thank you, thank you so much for being here and
(45:12):
keep up the great work you know we need it.
Speaker 3 (45:16):
Thank you, Kevin.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Hey, guys, thank you so much for listening to another
episode of Six Degrees with Kevin Bacon. And if you
want to learn more about the Deep Pop Chopra Foundation
and all the work that they are up to, head
to their website, the Chopra Foundation dot org. You can
find all the links in our show notes, and if
you like what you hear, please make sure you subscribe
(45:41):
to the show tune into the rest of our episodes.
You can find Six Degrees with Kevin Bacon on iHeartRadio,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I see
you next time.
A folks, today's guest is very very well known. This
is a much different guest than I normally have one.
And if you had told me that I would be
sitting down with one of the leading thought leaders of
our time, I wouldn't have believed you. It's just definitely
not my john. The Deepak Chopra is a global leader
(00:23):
and pioneer in the field of mind body medicine. It's
got so much insight into the spiritual, the physical, mental worlds.
Turn up the volume a bit. I'm glad you're here. Well,
(00:45):
I'm very excited to today welcome my guest, Deepak Chopra.
These are words that I never really thought would be
leaving my mouth here on a podcast. First off, I
never even imagined that I would be doing a podcast
when I got into this line of work, and certainly
(01:07):
that I would have such an esteemed guest with me today.
It's very nice to meet you, sir. I know that
a lot of people, you know, there's a silly six
degrees of Kevin Bacon thing that has been going on
for a lot of years, and we actually believed or
not have a connection through the film business because of
the love Guru. So my first question for you is
(01:31):
how was how did you feel about acting? What was
what was your experience with being a performer.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
You know, Mike has been a very good friend to me,
and when he came out with this idea, I wanted
to support the idea, but you know, it's not my
kind of humor and spend filming it was quite tiring
(01:59):
to daddy the truth and I'm not you know, I
like to speak on stage, but I'm not really an actor.
But it was an interesting experience.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Well, it's interesting that you say that because I think
that you know, I have listened to you, you know,
quite a bit speaking, uh, and and and seeing you
also not in person but online speaking and while you're
not an actor, uh, there is something about your full persona,
(02:31):
your voice where it is placed, all those elements of
what you put out in the world that have a
very very powerful effect. I guess my point is that
you know, beyond the words that that you say, there's
also a there is an element of that's just you
that is powerful. Are you Are you kind of aware
(02:52):
of that that it's, for lack of a better word, charismatic.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
I kind of became a flure through comments from people
like yourselves, you know. But I was not aware of
that growing up. Although in high school I was a
professional debater, and I you know, I did a lot
of that in college and in medical school too, so
(03:18):
I do have that background of engaging in dialogue and
debate as a student in school and medical school and
even thereafter.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Well, speaking of background, where are you from? Where were
you born?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I was born in New Delhi. I went to high
school in New Delhi, and then I went to the
medical school that at that time and even now is
considered very prestigious in India. They take only fifty students
a year from all over India. It's called the All
India Institute of Medical Sciences. And then as soon as
(03:59):
I finished my school, I was only twenty two, I
came to the United States and worked in community hospital
in New Jersey. But fortunately the next year I got
fellowships and residencies in Boston at various institutions associated with
(04:24):
Harvard and Boston University and Tufts, and so I did
my training in Boston, four years of residency and three
years of fellowship, so that was seven years. And then
I started teaching at at the three universities medical schools,
mainly endochronology and neuroindochronology, which is the study of brain chemistry.
(04:48):
So this was in seventies when people didn't know much
about neurochemicals like serotonin and dopamine and oxytocin and opiates.
But we were right in the frontier. My mentor was
Simour Reichlan, who was the number one endochronologist in the
world at that time.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
He was the.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
President of the Endocrine Society. He's now ninety seven, by
the way, and if he catches a snake in his garden,
he still dissects the brain looking for neurochemicals. But it
was my insight as a result of my training with
these molecules, was that one day one of my colleagues,
(05:29):
Can Despert, who later became the head of brain chemistry
at the NIH, She said, these are the molecules of emotion,
and you know that kind of hit me. I said,
you should write a book about them. She said, I
will if you write the forwards. So she wrote this book,
Molecules of Emotion, and I actually did the forward. It
(05:51):
became a best seller that got me into my book
Quantum Healing nineteen eighty eight. And even though it was
vilified by my colleagues and medical schools, which they felt
it was totally outlandish or whatever. It also was very
popular with the public. So that was my forain into
(06:15):
mind body medicine, which then became integrated medicine, and then
deeper understanding of what we call consciousness and spirit. And
this year or thirty five years later, I along with
a couple of colleagues, including a quantum biologist who's at
the University of Calgary also in Poland in Europe, and
(06:39):
another colleague, Brian Fertig, who's neuroindochronologists like myself, we published
last week Quantum Body, which now brings the science into
what I was saying in nineteen eighty eight. So since
ninety eight, in eighty eight, there's a lot of science
(07:00):
on what we call epigenetics, neuroplasticity, and even you know,
the quantum effects in our body as a result of
a more fundamental experience of existence, which is going beyond
the mind into what we call the spiritual consciousness. Somehow
(07:22):
that begins to kick in self regulation and homeostasis in
the body. And so we have a science, you know,
and now the science is easy to check because anybody objects.
We say, go to AI or go to Google Bard
or whatever and check out the science yourself. I don't
have to defend what I was saying thirty five years ago.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Well, I mean that brings up so many thoughts for me.
But I'll just speak from a personal level. I mean,
I am someone who kind of goes. I'm sort of
open to all different ways to stay healthy and to
fix things.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
If I use traditional medicine. I have a traditional medicine doctor. Uh,
you know, I will if if I feel sick or
something's going on. I'm I'm very good about showing up
and taking blood work and you know, doing all those things.
I'm not in any way anti it, but I also
sometimes go to alternative sources whatever they happen to be different,
(08:31):
you know what some people would call, you know, insane
kind of methods, meditation, you know, whatever it happens to be.
In the course of my life, there's been like, you know,
herbal kind of things and acupuncture, all kinds of stuff.
But what I find a lot of times is that
(08:52):
both of these sides of this particular issue are sort
of at odds with each other or disdainful of the
different kind of practices on both sides that there's a
lot of people that who are in you know, alternative
medicines that really you know, pooh pooh are disdained you know,
traditional medicine. And and you know, on the flip side,
(09:15):
you go to the doctor and you say, hey, you know, uh,
you know, i have this, you know, pain in my throat.
I've been taking you know, you know whatever, zinc or something,
and he goes, yeah, yeah, great whatever, you know it
doesn't want to hear about it. So I'm wondering, as
someone who comes from you were trained and you know
clearly very successful as a as a doctor in internal
(09:36):
medicine and the chronology, and then you've discovered this kind
of other connection, how do you balance those two types
of things? And which world is it that or do
you feel yourself on a bridge between two worlds?
Speaker 2 (09:51):
Not really, Kevin, So, just to put things in perspective,
I currently have a professorship in three medical schools, University
of California, San Diego, Mount Sinai in New York, and
University of Central Florida in Orlando. So I teach, and
right now it's very popular this what is called integrated
(10:13):
medicine with medical students that they are offered electives and
there's always a waiting list. So I no longer say
this is alternative, but this is an integrative.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
It's old list.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Say I think good medicine is that which works. Spirit
So medicine that works is good medicine. It doesn't matter
where it comes from. If it's you know, if it's
Eastern Western to me, doesn't matter. Having said that, what
we call traditional medicine as taught in medical schools for
(10:50):
the most part, although now medical schools are getting into
what they call integrated medicine. But in general, it's very
clear that mainstream medical intervention, which includes antibiotics, includes chemotherapy, radiation, surgery,
now immunotherapy, and many other things. Mainstream medicine is extremely
(11:15):
effective in acute illness. So if you have pneumonia, you
better take an antibiotic. If you break your leg, you
should see an orthopedic surgeon, et cetera. If you have appendicitis,
that's an acute situation which needs intervention. So what we
call reductionist medicine Western medicine is based on understanding the
(11:37):
mechanisms of illness at a very precise level. So you
know how bacteria multiplied. Then you have a precision medicine
to interfere with that, whatever it is antibiotics, etc. Now immunotherapy.
There are major breakthroughs.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
In medicine right now.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
The first one is AI, which can put together every
biomarker and link it to everything that's happening in your life,
your sleep patterns, your stress, et cetera. So AI is
a breakthrough in modern medicine. Gene editing is a breakthrough
in modern medicine. You'll be able to cut and paste
genes the same way you cutt and based emails. You
(12:19):
metaphorically speaking, you'll be able to read the barcode of
a gene and delete the gene that's causing say, baraka
gene cancer. You replace it with a normal gene Wallah.
So that's second major breakthrough. The third major breakthrough in
(12:40):
modern medicine is what we call messenger RNA, where you
can create, hopefully in the near future, vaccines for chronic
illness everything from heart disease to cancer, to diabetes to Alzheimer's.
So that's another major breakthrough. The fourth major breakthrough is
(13:00):
what we call the microbiome, which is the two million
extra genes you have in addition to human genes. We
can change the population of the genes through diet and
many other interventions. So that's a breakthrough. And the fifth
breakthrough is psychedelics, and you know that's happening in the
consciousness research. Those are very important breakthroughs in modern medicine. However,
(13:25):
when you look at the spectrum of disease, ninety five
percent or more disease is not due to what we
call fully penetrent genes. They are only less than five
percent of all disease, which includes cancer, heart disease, Alzheimer's, diabetes,
you name it. Ninety five percent or more is not
(13:48):
due to what we call fully penetrent genes, for which
you will have this gene editing and so forth. Ninety
percent of disease is epigenetically or strated epigenetic. Above the genes,
there's a sheet of proteins called his stones, and so
imagine my fist as this his stone protein DNA is
(14:12):
wrapped around this, and every experience you have doesn't matter
what the experience is. Right now, we are having an
intellectual conversation. Your genes in your brain frontal godix are
being activated. Sure, not only those genes, but anyone who's
listening to us. Their genes are being activated, which means
our minds are affecting energy information, genetic activity in different
(14:38):
parts of our body depending on the experience. So if
this was an emotional experience, you know, then you know
you're in love, then some other part of your brain
would be activated, and gene activity would be activated and
neural networks would change. This is something we did not
know twenty years ago. You know, intuitively, these Eastern tick
(15:00):
niques have tapped into it, you know, and Iveda and
Chinese medicine even and indigenous medical practices. They tapped into
the idea that when you change experience, you change biology.
And so you know, Western medicine's being dismissive of this
because they say, oh, you're not it's place ebo. But
(15:20):
that's a term that we use when you don't know
what's happening. Now we know what's happening. Genes are being
activated precisely. So when you sleep, certain genes get activated.
When you have an emotional experience, certain genes get activated.
When you manage your stress. Either way, it stress causes
genes to activate that cause inflammation. But when you have joy.
(15:45):
Other genes are activated. Every experience modulates the activity of
the change. What happens is these proteins they move around,
and then certain genes get closer to each other, certain
genes get far from each other. They're literally genetic switches.
Like the lights in my room. Now you know, I
(16:05):
have a computer, I have a light, I have a microwave,
let's say, and depending on what I need, the appropriate
appliances will get activated. There's a computer in consciousness, call
it a cosmic computer whatever, that is constantly monitoring your
experience in trying to regulate your body, you know. But
(16:26):
we kind of sometimes interfare with that through lack of sleep,
for example, or a dysfunctional relationship or an improper diet.
And now we not only know the gene activity, but
also the part of the autonomic nervous system, which we
call the parasympathetic nervous system, which is activated by all
these techniques, whether it's yoga or breathing, or chanting or
(16:49):
singing or meditation or mind body coordination or tai chi
or chigong or what you call you know, acuper pressure.
So looking at the new era where we can combine
everything that we know in Western medicine, with everything that
we know in these healing traditions, and there's a science.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
That's that's I love the book.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Now want to body.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
I love that. You know.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
I had a experience many years ago where I was
a young man, uh and I was, you know, suffering
from a tremendous amount of back pain, low back pain,
and uh, you know, to the point where like I'd
be driving down the road, I had to pull the
car over and lie on the ground that it was
(17:39):
but just it would literally like make me cry. And
I heard about this book, the Sarno Book, and I
remember I was on vacation. My back was killing me,
and I started reading this book and literally as I'm
reading it, my backstart stopped hurting.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
And you know, back book.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Was a good friend of mine, do it was?
Speaker 1 (18:00):
He yeah, yeah, I mean it changed my life, honestly,
and I've I've continued to you know, share that book
with with people, you know, because especially with backs.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
You know, he talked about.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
The you know, the fear that we have around and
we always think that it's there's something wrong with your
spine or you know, whatever it is, and this is
not the ascount people that have true spin as you've
pointed out, true things that need to be fixed, you know,
true spinal injuries. But once I started to think about
it and to think about, you know, what was actually
(18:33):
going on in my life that that I wasn't quite
dealing with, things got a lot better. I mean, my
back got better. I don't know, I don't know my
life necessarily got better, but my back back got better
for that time. And I think about that, you know,
quite a bit now. But I have to ask you,
(18:54):
you know, I I sometimes when i'm I'm not I'm
not what I would call a spiritual person, right, I don't.
I don't have a religion. I don't have a religious practice.
I don't I do things, for instance, like meditate, and
(19:19):
sometimes I'll use you know, apps or or or you know,
you know, voices or things that I've subscribed to to
kind of walk me through it. But when it starts
to dip a little too far into some spirituality, I
kind of find myself pulling back from that. So I'm wondering, what, what,
(19:43):
what kind of advice you would have for somebody like me.
Speaker 4 (19:45):
Let me.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Actually take you a little deeper on this, Okay, because
you shouldn't be afraid of exploring spirituality for the following reasons.
This is going in to the heart of two very
big scientific conundrums that we have today. If you go
(20:07):
on the Internet and you type out the following question,
what are the one hundred and twenty five open questions
and science today?
Speaker 3 (20:15):
There are one hundred and twenty five open questions and science.
By the way, you know, how did life begin?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
E said, But the first thing that comes up is
what is the universe made of? And I won't go
detailed into it. You would think that, you know, most
of the universe is gravity and particles and force fields,
and you know what we call atoms and molecules. Well,
that's point zero one percent of the universe, which is atomic.
(20:44):
The rest is dark energy doc matter, non atomic. We
can't even interact with it, so we have no idea
what it is point zero one percent of the visible universe,
which is two trillion galaxies one hundred you know, seven
hundred sixtillions. That's seven hundred followed by twenty one zeros.
And now they say uncountable trillions of probably habitable planets,
(21:09):
including sixty billion habitable planets just in the Milky Way
galaxy atomic. But the problem with atoms is or particles,
when you're not observing them, they disappear. They're not physical anymore.
They disappear into mathematical space, and they're called wave functions.
That's therefore the first question in size today's what's the
(21:32):
universe made of? And nobody knows what it's made of?
Zero They say it's made of nothing, which leads to
our second question in science, Then why does it.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Look like this?
Speaker 2 (21:43):
You know, like you and me and the computer and
the Milky Way galaxy and stars and trees and rocks
and animals. That's called the hard problem of consciousness. Now,
in the short time we have right now, we can't
go into detail, but there's an emerging science which we
call consciousness, which might be fundamental reality. Conscious not the mind,
(22:06):
it's not the body. It's that in which we experience
the mind and body. So if I ask you where
are you having this experience right now listening? You probably
point to your ears or your brain, But there's no
sound in your ears or your brain either. If I say,
where are you seeing my image the park on your screen?
(22:27):
Where is this experience happening? You might point to your eyes,
your brain, but there's no experience in your eyes in
your brain either, there are only chemical activities eellectual So
there's a growing body of evidence that experience happens, for
lack of a better word, in what we call awareness
or consciousness. Without awareness or consciousness, there's no experience. There's
(22:51):
no sound, there's no touch, no sight, no say it tastes,
no smell, no thought, no feeling, no emotion, no no ideas,
no creativity, no any no experience. So consciousness is that
which makes experience happen, and we don't know where it is.
So the spiritual traditions have said, if you go really
(23:13):
deep beyond your mind, you do encounter and experience where
you feel connected to everything ineffable, You lose the fear
of death, you have spontaneous emergence of what is called
platonic values like truth, goodness, beauty, harmony, and you actually
find your identity beyond space and time. Now this was
(23:36):
very difficult for people to explain in the past, because
you know, it did sounds so esoteric and so vague.
But now with all that we're learning from psychedelics and
so on, it looks like your brain is not the
orchestrator of experience. It's like it's like a radio set
which receives experience from another domain beyond space and time.
(23:59):
You don't have to call it God, you don't have
to call it spirit. Just call it it whatever it is.
But we are on a little planet, little planet in
the junkyard of infinity, and we think we figured it out.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
We have it.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
So the biggest experience you can have is a spiritual being.
Is astonishment, is wonder, is curiosity, and it's almost bewilderment.
Those are spiritual experiences because we don't know why there
is existence, or why there's awareness of existence. Because if
(24:34):
you weren't aware that you exist, then what's the point.
So these are very big questions and I think they
deserve exploring in every which way possible, whether it's through
Web three or artificial intelligence, or psychedelics or meditation, or
even the rituals that go with religion. Because those people
(24:57):
had an experience which was ineffable and they couldn't explain it,
and you know, the followers just were believing in the experience,
not having that experience on their own. If Buddha had
an experience, I don't want to worship the Buddha. I
want to know what that experience was or Jesus so well,
you know. So that's my take on spirituality. I would say,
(25:18):
take the plunge and explore it.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
You'll be surprised.
Speaker 5 (25:27):
If you are inspired by today's episode. Please join us
in supporting six degrees dot org by texting the word
bacon to seven zero seven zero seven zero. Your gift
empowers us to continue to produce programs that highlight the
incredible work of everyday heroes, well also enabling us to
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Once again, text b a Con to seven zero seven
(25:52):
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learn more.
Speaker 1 (25:59):
Hey want to bring on Punacha Machaya.
Speaker 3 (26:03):
I love this name.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
He is the CEO of the Chopra Foundation, and I
want to talk about the work that you are doing
and that relates to everything that we're talking about here.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
No, thank you Kevin for the opportunity.
Speaker 4 (26:22):
I think Deepak when he started the foundation, Yeah, in
one vision he said, I want to reach a billion
plus people or a more peaceful, just sustainable, healthier and
joyful world as the sign me up. And so the
purpose of the Triple Foundation is to really make this
vision a reality. But where we really focused on right
(26:42):
now is in three areas as we speak in this
one hour podcast, more than sixty plus people would have died.
Mental health is one of the silent pandemics every forty
seconds blue some of the suicide globally in this great
country every eleven minutes every day below twenty two veterans
you know, to suicide. So one of the big movements
(27:03):
what we are looking at at the Foundation is how
do we really address this mental health And that's really
we've started a movement called Never Alone with our co
founders also Gabrielle right with Deepak, truly look at mental health,
but really look at this consciousness based approach. Like Deepak
always says, don't confuse yourself with your selfie and.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
I know who you are.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
And in the deep dark, when you know the deep
in the dark night of the soul, how do you
going to reach into that part of you to find
the resilience to transcend whatever you're going through at that point.
So that's really a big focus for us mental health
and the reason for that is also if you can
think about the second leading cause of death for my
young adults is dead by suicide?
Speaker 3 (27:46):
Isn't that a tragedy? Right? As we talk.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
Sending people to Mars and we talk about all the
innovation and AI, a younger generation saying take me out
of here.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
I don't want to be part of this.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
So when you look at that, we realize that, Okay,
how do we talk to them?
Speaker 3 (28:00):
As you look at meditations, we believe.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
We need to talk through them gaming. How do you
look at gaming as a platform to talk to young adults.
So we're doing a lot of interesting work in gaming. Example,
let's say playing Fortnite or Call of Duty or Legal
Legends or Roadblocks. Don't tell kids not to play the game,
because obviously they're connecting with that. How do you change
the mechanics in between games? How can we teach them
(28:23):
focus attention, so mini games between games. So that's a
focus for us and Deepark touched on this. On psychedelics,
we really believe that if medication's not working, but there's
an entire domain of psychedelics which is really creating a
profound effect on mental health, how do they kind of
bring these education in awareness. So that's part of mental health.
(28:45):
The second area which we have focused on is Deepark's
bodio work over the last four decades, is how do
you transform human well being? And very specifically, if we're
looking at health span, people are obviously doing a lot
of work and longevity. People will live longer, that's modern science,
live better. How do we improve health span quality of life?
(29:05):
So we say we want the wisdom of age and
the biology of youth. So as people live longer, how
do you talk about purpose, your relationship with time, and
how do you kind of give these knowledge and information.
So that's a big focus for us in the Foundation.
And the third area of focus for us is.
Speaker 3 (29:24):
How can we in these times.
Speaker 4 (29:26):
Have a leadership crisis globally and globally we believe there's
a lack of trust. People don't trust anything these days
and that really did ritic correlation to leadership, personal and
professional leadership.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
So we have a program.
Speaker 4 (29:41):
Which they Parkash to teach at calag and Columbia over
the last fifteen years and we are already taking that
to the global caordiance.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Called the Soul of Leadership.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
So connecting with not your LinkedIn profile, we can always
google that, sure, but what do we look at the
soul profile? Who are you as a person, how do
you lead from that? So these are the three areas
which we are broadly focused on in the foundation.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
And then how do you in in the day to
day work? How how do how are you implementing these
ideas and how are you spreading spreading this these these
these ideas.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
So then we say it takes a village to you know,
bring up a child. So what we're doing is creating
global collaborations.
Speaker 3 (30:18):
So we have the content be of the knowledge. That's
what we are very good at.
Speaker 4 (30:22):
So example, so we're taking the knowledge on mental health
and we're taking it to Africa. We're raising awareness for
something called FGM, female genital mutilation. But how now when
somebody has gone through that trauma, how can we use
our programs, our meditation, our content and enable people in
those communities to use it. So that's one example example.
(30:44):
On leadership, we have actually uh op on on our website.
We go to c FI dot Chopra Foundation dot org.
CFI dot Choprofoundation dot org.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
You will see two courses.
Speaker 4 (30:55):
One of the courses is called the Soul of Leadership.
We we're offering it free and this is through a
grant from Robert Smith's Foundation. We believe everybody needs to
be their own leader, so that's a free program we
are offering. We also have a program called Peace is
the Way. Our goal is to really create global peace facilitators.
If you can work in your community and then really
(31:17):
work through your community, become a facilitator. So our goal
is to enable those programs and content, and that's really
how we are building alliances. We're working in India through
our collaborations over there, in Australia, in Spain, in Majorca,
obviously doing a lot.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Of work in London.
Speaker 4 (31:33):
A good example of this would be announced a collaboration
with Stella McCartney on equine therapy, right, and equint therapy
is something, but as as you look at mental health,
everybody has a different way. Like you said, people find
what they want, what resonates with them. But if you
be a young adult, you know you could don't have
access to psychedelics. Maybe we want to look at VR therapy.
We're working with that too. We're working with the leading
(31:54):
anxiety expert from Harvard to look at anxiety and VR
in the brain.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
But maybe it's just easing equin So yeah, I would
say a.
Speaker 4 (32:01):
Platora of tools, products and services which you're enabling other
third parties to use.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
I love that you are.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I mean when you mentioned the gaming and the psychedelics,
I love that you're You're you're not drawing a line
in the sand in terms of these things, because you know,
in a lot of ways with this stuff, the horses
out of the barn and both of you have mentioned
AI and it makes me think about, you know, this
(32:33):
is not exactly AI, but I'm the intersection of this
incredible technology tsunami that we've experienced in the last you
know whatever, fifteen twenty years. It's it's it's I'm not
the first to say that it can be completely overwhelming,
but just to share a story for me that I
(32:55):
was thinking about. You know, a lot of times, if
I am going to meditate in the middle of the day,
I have a.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Sound which is a.
Speaker 1 (33:06):
Light a light rain falling in a rainforest that I
that I like. And I was listening to it, and
there's there's some birds kind of like you know, kind
of tropical birds. They're overlaid on this sound, and I
go back to it all the time just because it's
a good one for me. Whatever, and all of a sudden,
(33:27):
I realized that I put in my headset and I
turned my phone on, and I realized that there was
a light rain falling where I was, and there were birds,
and I didn't need this thing in my hand, this
piece of machinery, and these things in my ears. So
(33:47):
and it was such a simple moment, but it kind
of made me go, why am I so wrapped up in.
Speaker 3 (33:56):
Trying to.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Stay somehow technologically connected to something? Is it keeping me
from you know, being pride, from hearing, from seeing nature,
from experiencing people and people's faces and their eyes and
their voices and all this other stuff. So I'm wondering
about the kind of the intersection. Maybe you could speak
(34:22):
on this deep ok between you know, technology and spiritualism.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, of course, you know when we were growing up,
when I was growing up, you know, by fourteen fifteen,
there were no computers. In fact, when I came to
the country, I had never to the United States nineteen seventy.
I had never seen a television set in my life.
And then, you know, while it was in color, I
was totally bewildered by the technology. Then came fax machines,
(34:52):
Then came the Internet, all, you know, in my lifetime.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
There I miss a good facts machine. I miss a
good fax machine, or a.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Kid who grew up in India with no access to this.
My teenage years were full of adventure, you know, going
to the jungle with my father to look at tigers
and even go tiger hunts, going to the Himalias in
the summer in this and climbing mountains. There was total
(35:25):
exposure to nature.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
From then.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
I see these poor kids now in this country, especially
COVID and post after, who think that the world exists
on a computer.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
They're not nowhere there.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
So I think giving them these tools, a little bit
like gaming, like we are experiences actually can make them
more interested in actually going for the real thing too,
you know. And there is when I was educated as
a child, even in India, there was poetry, there was music,
(36:02):
there was dance, there was ballet, there was storytelling, there
was theater, There was adventures in nature. And yes there
was sport too, but it wasn't the kind of sport
where you will you get a scholarships and make a
lot of money and that becomes the motivation. It was
sport for the joy of sport, music for the joy
(36:23):
of music. You know poetry, Well, how many kids these
days listen to poetry or even can quote Shakespeare or
ts Eliot. So you know, our education with all emphasis
or technology, engineering, science, mathematics. While it's good it makes
(36:43):
people nerds and experts to get a Nobel prize, it
deprives them of their humanity. We are actually a society
that has deprived our kids of their humanity.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
They don't even know what it means to be human.
Speaker 4 (36:58):
Also, Deepog's point came, and I think it's conscious use
of technology. So what we're saying is that you're playing
a game. Yes, what I cannot get the kid playing
Fortnite play Fortnite, but imagine I could teach you how
to breathe. So when you get short in Fortnite, imagine
that the tip it tells you this is how you
activate your breathwork so you can get to the next level.
So between games, we can make them more conscious. So
(37:21):
don't change the game. But while you design the game,
let's be more conscious. Because I'm the generation which came
with fast internet and mobile phones, we trought addiction. Maybe
in this age of AI, we can create more conscious AI.
And I think we had a very interesting intersection because,
like Deepug always says, we have medieval mindset but very
(37:44):
godlike technologies at our disposal. So we better be conscious
as a global community how we.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Leverage but also put it to good use.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
I think today just think about it, every forty seconds
we lose someone to suicide globally. The are not enough
therapists in this country. It takes six weeks to get appointment.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
That's based on statistics. We have to use technology during
the pandemic.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
The foundation we deployed any being a technology di chatbot,
we thought maybe left twenty thousand users. Maybe, you know,
we had more than twenty six million messages exchanged on
the platform, sixteen million minutes of conversation and four eight
hundred suicidal ideation interventions.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Right, this is on a simple chatbot.
Speaker 4 (38:27):
But now that can be used for good. How do
we use it as an intervention? Because I think there
is a certain amount of use of technolo. This is
the use of technology using zoom, right, but we shouldn't
be dependent on that as the only means of communication.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
Share shared with Kevin whatfit did with the mayor of Mammy.
You know, yes, he and this have bonded it now
because we created a game for them on roadblocks.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
So we're basically thinking, you know, when you think.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
About gaming, he said, okay, it's this and that, right,
you cannot game. So we said, we go to roadblocks.
Everybody is on roadblocks. Why don't we create yoga and
meditation on zuo roadblocks And we said, let's kind of
use that as a platform. And now the father and
son can both play together. Right, and those are things
experiences like father and son used to go camping. Maybe
(39:16):
now we go to go a little bit of a
given take father and son player game together and then
they go camping.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Right, I think this.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Bonding, we have to also meet in the middle. It's
not this or that. I think that train has left
the station. Like we are doing a lot of things
in immersive meditations these days. With the technology is brain
and trainment. Right when you go, when you use light,
photoic stimulation, sound by neuural beats, we can shift change
your reality. So when meditation used to be an ice
(39:46):
closed experience one on one, we worked with a company
to create this immersive experiences, which we believe now it's
going to be the collective shared experience.
Speaker 3 (39:54):
As we go to the future amazing.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
What would you say is the most pressing need that
the organization has. Now you've spoken a lot about mental health.
I suppose it's it's mental health and mostly or partly
amongst young people.
Speaker 4 (40:09):
I would say it's both ends of the spectrum. I
think the younger suffering and the older suffering. Right, I
think it's both ends of the spectrum. So one ENVI
have mental health among young adults. We also have a
very big issue with cognitive decline arkinsas Alzeiber's design dementia.
So our goal of the foundation look at both. I
look at this end of the spectrum. It's loneliness, right,
(40:30):
How do we create community? And I think, Deepuk, we
have a program called Love and Action where we want
to create love as the operating system of communities. We
really be separated the young and the old right when
they actually maybe it should be together. And so when
we want to kind of this the other program go
Love and Action. When Deepuk, maybe you want to share
this is the four tenants of how communities can come together?
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Deepug? Do you want to share that?
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Yeah? Well, you know in Eastern wisdom traditions they say
when you have shared vision, when you have maximum diversity participants,
ethnic diversity, racial diversity, diversity in education, storytelling, humanity, science experts.
So shared vision maximum diversity, leveraging each other's strengths because
(41:19):
we all have different strengths and a spiritual and emotional
bond of some kind, then you can solve any problem.
So I took that seriously and we created this thing
called Never Alone dot Love and basically we connect people
with each other and we have four things that we
talk about. Attention deep listening to each other, Affection, deep
(41:42):
caring for each other, appreciation, noticing everyone's uniqueness, and radical
acceptance doesn't matter who you are, you know, binary, non bordinary, black, white, yellow, whatever.
Radical acceptance of everyone. And so you know, this is
part of our attempt now to create both global online
(42:04):
and offline communities of support for each other. Attention, affection,
appreciation and acceptance. And they also combine it with leadership.
So you know, recently I was in Sweden and I
had no idea that in Sweden there's an African Swedish
population much like African American population, which is very marginalized,
(42:26):
where crime rate is high, unemployment is high, illness is high,
depression is high. So you know, I started to work
with them, and it turned out that the Obama former
President Obama, has a forum called Global leaders and we
worked with them in Sweden to actually create a new
(42:47):
leadership for the Swedish American community. We've done the same
here in Queens in New York, where the crime rate
actually went down by ninety nine percent, so much so
that you know, Ponacha and I have now worked are
working with the school system in New York and in
(43:09):
corporate leadership training for young people, because I think you
give them purpose, you give them passion, you give them connectivity,
and you create an emotional bond. The best example is
sports teams. They have shared vision. You know, at least
in sports like we say baseball or not baseball, football
(43:30):
and other sports soccer.
Speaker 3 (43:32):
You have those elements.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
You know, everybody's supporting each other, they're emotionally connected, they
want to win all they're not even competing with each other.
They're leveraging each other's strengths. That's a great model for leadership.
Speaker 1 (43:47):
I gotta say, I think this is all great, great
work that you guys are doing, and it's been an
absolutely fascinating conversation. I'm going to be mentally tuning on
this for some time. What is the This is a
call to action now, I mean how can.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
People get involved?
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Could be pitch the websites and and and and let's
let's hear how how people can check out this great work.
Speaker 4 (44:11):
I think we have a website with Schoprofoundation dot org,
which I did to share in the link.
Speaker 3 (44:16):
Okay, that are We also.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
Have a platform called CFI CFI dot Chopra Foundation dot org.
Speaker 3 (44:22):
Courses.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
We have the Soul of Leadership course and Piece of
the Way course if people can go on sign up
and roll and we also everybody updated on our website
on a newsletter, subscribe and.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
We will keep them updated.
Speaker 4 (44:35):
And also right back to us, I think it's co creation,
right we as we co create together for more peaceful,
just sustainable, healthy and joyful world. And your platform with
what you are doing, is also a great enabler for
us to share this message.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Well, I want to thank you both so much for
being here today, and I, like I said, it's been
a fascinating conversation and I think I'm going to have
to listen back to this one to kind of reabsorb
some of the things that we spoke about. And so
thank you, thank you so much for being here and
(45:12):
keep up the great work you know we need it.
Speaker 3 (45:16):
Thank you, Kevin.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
Hey, guys, thank you so much for listening to another
episode of Six Degrees with Kevin Bacon. And if you
want to learn more about the Deep Pop Chopra Foundation
and all the work that they are up to, head
to their website, the Chopra Foundation dot org. You can
find all the links in our show notes, and if
you like what you hear, please make sure you subscribe
(45:41):
to the show tune into the rest of our episodes.
You can find Six Degrees with Kevin Bacon on iHeartRadio,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I see
you next time.
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