June 6, 2024 • 26 mins
You’ve heard of it, you’ve seen it, but have you tried it? We are talking about cold plunges! While our host, Nicole Berrie, prefers the soothing embrace of a steamy sauna to the invigorating rush of a cold plunge, she’s open to the idea of a cold dunk and all of its benefits to your skin. When it comes to cold plunges, those who love it, love it a lot, like Melissa Kegler, who shares her journey to becoming a cold water distance marathon swimmer, including the benefits and dangers that go with it. While dermatologist Dr. Geeta Yadav shares her expertise on what subjecting our skin to extreme temperatures really does and how to reap the benefits of cold plunging without damaging your skin.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm sure you've noticed cold plunges are pretty trendy lately.
You've seen those videos of people slipping their freezing bodies
into ice cold water all over your social media pages.
I've tried it kind of, but if I'm being honest,
I totally prefer a hot shower. I mean, saunas and
the heat, aside from being Mormon cozy, can do wonders
for your skin. But for those who like the cold water,
(00:24):
they still feel compelled to keep at it even when
it sounds unpleasant.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I jumped off that boat and I just instantly froze.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
And I was prepared for it, but not prepared at
the same.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Time, and I immediately just thought, I think I'm getting
hypothermia instantly, and I thought, I don't know how I'm
going to make it back.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I can't do this.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I think I'm going to disqualified. I think I'm going
to get pulled. It's not going to work. And then
it just kind of did, because you get caught up
in that excitement of a big mass event.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Hi guys, and welcome. I'm so glad you're here. Nicoleberry,
and this is Skin Querries, a show all about our
skin and its health. As we grow in age. Our
skin is really a record of a life well lived,
because there isn't one body part that I could think
of that reflects our well being as clearly as our skin.
So let's go on this journey together to really understand
(01:17):
what's going on with our skin. Let's unravel the mysteries
happening inside and out. Today we'll focus on how cold
and hot water affects our skin. Growing up, my mom,
who's Korean, always told me to stay away from the
(01:38):
cold water, and stay away from ice, stay away from
cold drinks, anything that's cold, because it can actually lead
to stagnancy in the blood and circulation. She really recommended
hot water, hot drinks, and all of those really warm things.
But now cold plunging is all the rage. Personally, I'm
an avid sauna user. I love sweating, I love the heat,
(01:59):
and I love love that it can open up your
pores and really do wonders for your skin. So I'm
really intrigued and a little scared of cold plunging myself.
But eventually I did came into cold plunging recently on vacation,
after reading all about the benefits and seeing my friends
doing it and loving it. I did enjoy the rush
of cold, and I noticed an invigoration. My skin was tighter.
(02:21):
I really felt alive, and I was curious to know
if any of these benefits were based on actual fact.
Are there any consequences to putting our skin through these
extreme temperatures. Let's dive in and answer once and for all.
Does our skin prefer cold water or hot water?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Hi?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Melissa, how are you very good today? How are you?
It's so good to see you. My first guest is
Melissa Keegler, an open water swimmer specializing in marathon, channel
and ice swimming.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I love just the feeling of being in the water.
I grew up in Michigan, round water all the time,
so when I eventually moved out to Washington and discovered
this amazing cold water ocean out here, it was just
this new world. And that really got me into marathon swimming,
which is it starts at a distance of ten kilometers
(03:11):
and then goes up from there. And marathon swimming turned
into channel swimming, which is ultra distance marathon swimming, and
eventually turned into ice swimming, which is swimming that is
in water temperature forty one degrees fahrenheit five degrees celsius
or below.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I just love the water.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I love my animals, and I love everything about the
ocean out here.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So what was it that kind of hooked you And
how did you even come to learning about open water
competitive swimming.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
So open water competitive swimming actually got into it through
triathlon and it was my aunt who lives in Florida.
She was doing a triathlon and had an injury. So
my mom's sister and I we said, Florida sounds great.
I mean, Michiganders love going to Florida. And we said,
let's make a girl's trip out of it. We'll go
down to Florida. We'll do the relay and I'll do
(04:01):
the swimming leg. And I remember getting in and just
thinking this is so cool. It was just this moment.
I was out there, I was swimming, and I could
do whatever I wanted as long as I got to
the end. There weren't rules necessarily about don't do a
stroke this way, don't do a stroke that way. If
(04:21):
you touch a wall a certain way, you're going to
get disqualified. It was so freeing. I remember getting out going.
I have no idea what just happened, but I think
I kind of like this, and I think I want
to do it again.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
So how did you go from then that to cold
slash ice swimming?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
My first cold water swim, I did the Alcatraz swim
because I thought that would be really fun.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Okay, tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
You get on a big boat, a fairy type boat
with all the other competitors. The boat goes out to
Alcatraz Island, drops you off, and then you swim into
the San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
As if you're truly escaping.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yes, yes, and I definitely wore a black and white
stripe suit under my wet suit. But I was had
to tow full knia pre because I just thought it's cold.
But it's a relatively short swim, so I thought, okay,
I could deal with it.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Nicole.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I jumped off that boat and I just instantly froze.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And I was prepared for it, but not prepared at
the same time, and I immediately just thought, I think
I'm getting hypothermia instantly, and I thought, I don't know
how I'm going to make it back. I can't do this.
I think I'm gonna be disqualified. I think I'm going
to be an ice cube. I think I'm going to
get pulled. It's not going to work. And then it
just kind of did, because you get caught up in
that excitement of a big mass event.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Then Melissa moved to Seattle for work, and she had
no other option but to swim in cold water. In
the summer, the average temperature of the water is fifty
three degrees and in the winter it's forty five. And
in twenty twenty two, Melissa shattered the US national distance
record for the International Ice Swimming Associations Ice Mile event,
(06:00):
completed a one point four mile swim in thirty nine
point two degrees water. So impressive and inspiring. So I
had to ask her how she trades her body to
handle being in the ice water.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So you're doing a lot of cold ice baths where
I'll be outside in a cold plunge for you know,
forty five minutes to an hour just sitting there, which
is very different than cold plunging, I think to what
most people think it is, it's a lot of just
freezing yourself intentionally as much as you can to build
(06:33):
up and maintain that cold resistance. So there's a lot
less swimming, I would say for ice swimming season and
a lot more cold conditioning that goes on because you
have to prepare your body for that level of cold exposure.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
How would you describe your skin reacting when you do
go into a plunge.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It almost feels like your skin is burning in a way,
or like you have a sunburn, and you know, you
get in a shower for the first time, and maybe
you don't really realize you have a sunburn until that
first drop of water hits your skin. You'd go oh,
and you just kind of freak out a little bit.
And it's just this strange feeling of essentially your skin
(07:16):
in your blood vessels within your body, essentially moving the
blood away from your extremities and the outside of your
body into your body to preserve life in your core organs.
Why it feels so painful, I have no idea, But
what I can say is that after ten minutes, when
you're numb, you don't feel it anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So for someone who's been doing it now for years
and years, I'm so interested to hear how that's affected
your skin and your health.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I think the cold water, at least for me, has
definitely it makes me feel like it's kept me looking youthful,
and young, so there's the aesthetic benefit of the cold water,
and then with salt water, it's almost like you're getting
a micro scrub I guess a mini facial while you're
in there.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
But Melissa puts her body through extreme temperatures and that
can have detrimental effects.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
One of the things I try to talk to people about,
especially people in coaching or people that are curious about
ice swimming, is the potential for nerve damage is really
real in your extremities. A couple of my toes on
my right foot, I'm pretty sure have nerve damage because
when I walk outside in the grass in the morning
without shoes on, and you know, you get that morning dew.
(08:33):
The minute water hits those two toes, it's just immense pain.
And one of the other interesting skin things that has
actually developed just within the last year is cold urdicaria. Essentially,
it's an allergy to the cold, and what ends up
happening is I'll go swimming and the water will be cold,
(08:53):
and then about I don't know anywhere from two to
six hours afterwards, my face will start to swell up
and I'll get big hives and rashes. I did find
in talking to my doctor that the people that do
have this condition, they're prone to sudden unconsciousness, which on
land isn't necessarily a big issue. But if you're in
(09:15):
the water and you pass out, you could drown almost
instantly because it only takes about half a cup of
water to fill your lungs and drown.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And has that happened to you yet or no? No, okay,
thank god.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, you can take antihistamines to hopefully calm your skin
down before you get in the water. I've also tried
petroleum jelly like vacoline or other topical ointments to put
on the affected areas before I get in the water. Now,
I do have an EpiPen that I carry with me
at the beach. My swim friends know where it is,
(09:47):
just in case something happened. So I do have safety
measures that I put in place for myself. But then
also I accept the risk if something does happen that
that's a decision that I made for myself.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Tell us about how you prepare your skin for all
the intense cold plunges. What's your skincare routine like? Is
it a deliberate skincare routine to withstand the cold?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I think when the water is super cold, my skin
chafes more. Anybody who's chafed understands what I'm talking about.
It is one of the most painful things, and it
chafes in different places depending on the water conditions, whether
it's flat or wavy, fresh or salty. So making sure
I have a product for my skin that is safe
(10:32):
for the environment, that you know doesn't come off in
the water, because one thing, it's bad for the water,
the body of water you're in, the plants and the animals,
but also you are not protected from shaping if it
comes off. So using something that's super heavy that sticks
is great, But then you have the problem of clogged pores,
and is there a.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Way you prevent these products from clogging your pores?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
So I just need to make sure I have some
really really good so to really cleanse the area, get
things off, and then you know, just make sure I
hydrate afterwards.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
And I think that's the other thing too.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I find in the cold water, I need to use
body moisturizers and lotions a lot more because my skin
gets super super dry after the cold water.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
After a cold plunder, a cold swim, do you typically
take a hot shower, a hot bath or do you
take going right into the cold I don't do. I
don't do cold showers. That's so ironic.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
The cold shower is just horrendous. The shower to me
is my one place of joy and warmth during the week.
That is so fair and I like keeping it that way.
So do you do it like extra hot warm?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I would say average warm.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I mean, whether I'm taking a shower in the summer
after a cold swim, it's it's all the same temperature.
I've gone into saunas and for me, saunas don't work.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
What do you mean it doesn't work for you? So
for me it actually burns my skin.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I wanted to try the whole you know, cold water
seaside saana thing, and I was in the sauna. I
mean it's warm in there, of course it is, but
I guess I didn't realize how long I was in
there and my skin. I came out and my skin
was super inflamed and red all over and essentially my
skin almost burned and was like that for two days.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, thank you so much for sharing your practice and
your experience. Absolutely thank you too. Melissa made me realize
that there can be very real consequences if you stay
in the water for too long. But whether that's hot
or cold, long term exposure comes with risks. Now, let's
talk to a dermatologist who has looked at and done
research on the effects of these extreme temperatures on our skin.
(12:40):
She'll tell us how we can reap the benefits without
causing damage. Right after the break, welcome back to skin queries.
We're trying to figure out the real benefits of cold
and hot water on Is it just a trendy craze
(13:02):
or is there real science behind it? And how do
you take care of your skin when you're putting it
through these extreme temperatures. To help me answer these questions,
we're bringing in doctor gita Ya Dab, a dermatologist and
the founder of Facet Dermatology. Hi, Hi, how are you?
Thank you for being here with us and chatting. I'm
(13:22):
really excited to get into the nitty gritty of water,
be it cold, hot, and everything in between.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Do you mind introducing yourself first? My name is Ghita Yadev.
I'm a board certified dermatologist. I've got my own practice
on the East end of the city. I practice medical
dirm cosmetic derm. I do clinical trials, and I love
being on social media to help educate my patients and followers.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So what are some of the claims that cold plunges
can do for your health, for your skin, for your complexion.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
So a lot of people report feeling invigorated inside and out.
They sort of get a sense of a high on
endorphins after a cold place, but there's also sort of
a thrill.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
For most people.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
A cold plunge can be relatively harmless, but it still
feels daring or risky and brave. So there's a real
excitement that comes with the suddenness of the change in
temperature and that activity.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I can speak like for myself when I do a
cold plunch, which is rarely because I am definitely little
scared than timid when it comes to immersing myself in
cold water, I definitely do feel that high and just
like that surge of energy. So is there anything you
could speak to biochemically that's happening to the body when
one does a cold plunge.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
So cold water definitely shocks our bodies. It causes our
heart rates to spike, and it can induce a host
of hormones, including dopamine, cortisol, serotonin, nor epernephrine to increase,
and that all has an impact on how we feel.
And there's one study that showed sort of a short
term cold water plunge can improve a person's positive affect
(14:54):
So a person can feel increased enthusiasm, a sense of
alertness or energy, higher ability to con andrade, all while
reducing negative affects, which includes feelings of fear, nervousness, anger,
and guilt. So when we're exposed to cold temperatures, our
blood vessels kind of constrict to help minimize the heat loss.
That reduces blood flow, and that can even reduce pain
and inflammation. So you have to kind of extrapolate that
(15:16):
a little bit, but there are definitely physiologic effects that
are happening when you put your body into that sudden
shock of cold water. Another thing I should say is
that we're related to inflammation. I think the lot of
what we're talking about in healthcare today has to do
with the impacts of inflammation inside the body and on
our skin and how it promotes aging or unwellness. And
(15:37):
I would say that some of the benefits of reducing
inflammation throughout the body, it can be helpful for muscle recovery,
chronic pain, arthritis, and other things.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
It can definitely make us feel better. So you talk
about constriction of blood vessels, which I find so interesting.
Does that then relate to kind of the tightening of
the pores, because I know this is something that I
see on Instagram or TikTok that you know, dunk your
face in a bowl of ice water tightens and brightens
everything and is like instant botox. Is that true?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
There is a reduction in blood flow that occurs when
you're in cold water, and that is often most noticeable
on the skin. So our bodies tend to redirect blood
flow towards protecting our deeper tissues, our internal organs, and
that creates these noticeable changes in the skin that can
make the skin rapidly firm up, make it look smoother,
specially cellulite tip. And it could make your pores appure
(16:31):
tighter as well, minimizing that look of redness. It can
also be helpful for acne, reducing some inflammation. It can
help regulate sebum production. Actually, lastly, I would say it
can help stimulate new collagen information, helping the skin look
firmer and smoother over time.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
But the question is how long that'll last for.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
So the data really supports these shorter plunges, and the
durability of those results has not been measured clearly in
the evidence.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I'm half Korean, and what's interesting is that when it
comes to Eastern Asian philosophy, we're taught to kind of
steer away from cold water and ice plunges and everything.
My mom grew up telling me that don't put ice
on your face, you need to boost circulation, and exactly
for what you just said, it constricts blood flow. I
just how do you reckoncile exactly?
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Just find that so interesting it is it's really it's
neat how different cultures view sort of the soothing or
the aggravating potential. I mean, I would say from a
healing aspect in terms of the skin, often we use
heat and energy to create changes to the skin. In
office procedures, we also have to use cooling and soothing
to help from a healing perspective, So I think it
(17:40):
really depends on what you're trying to achieve in terms
of the skin benefit and the skin health. And certainly
if you're experiencing some inflammation in the skin, maybe not
sort of a really shocking cold plunge, but you know,
a cooling cream on your face, or sometimes I advise
my patients who haven't like a lot of inflamation their skin,
like eczema, to put their medications in the fridge. But
(18:02):
even their medications are cooling and soothing and help them
when they apply it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
I mentioned before, I'm personally a big proponent of sweating
sauna work, and I post about my daily inference sauna
a lot. So I'm curious what are the benefits when
it comes to the flip side of cold therapy.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
There's actually a little bit more information in that area
that I've thought was really interesting because so there are
few cultural communities that really are big proponents of, you know,
sweat lodges or of saunas. The Finish are famous for
their finish saunas and the value that that has on health,
and the same goes with sweat lodges in indigenous cultures,
(18:41):
and some data has been shown that there's improved cardiovascular
benefits to going through regular exposure to these treatments. In
terms of your skin health, certainly exposure to that warmth
helps sort of decongest the pores and opens them up
and encourage which is circulation, So that can definitely improve healing.
(19:03):
But in patients who struggle with pigmentation, I'm always very
mindful about the exposure to heat because all heat sort
of is related to infrared radiation to the skin, and
that can actually encourage pigmentation and pigmentary abnormalities.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
So that's so interesting.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Be a bit careful if you're prone to pigmentation. Even
exposure to cooking heat, like if you're getting stuff in
and out of an oven, can aggravate people's pigmentation.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Not getting too close to the oven for a whole
variety of reasons, probably, right.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
You know, we often think of malasma and stuff related
to the sun, and we you know, everybody's pretty conscious
of sun. But protecting your skin from the heat can
also be really important.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And when you talk about extreme heat, can having a
hot shower, because I mean I love getting into like
a scalding hot shower and then ending it with the cold,
But can that be detrimental to skin?
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, so definitely, I advise my patients who have exzema
or so arisis. Even though sometimes those burning hot showers
can feel so amazing, actually can be very drying to
the skin and very irritating, and that increased circulation to
the skin actually means that all those bud vestles vasodilate,
and all those itch factors, it all gets aggravated. The
inflammation the skin gets aggravated, and then patients starts scratching
(20:13):
their skin. So even though it can kind of feel
satisfying initially, it can be quite damaging in the long run.
So I really do advise my patients to avoid hot
showers and certainly prolonged hot showers.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
My daughter, actually, she has eggzma from time to time,
and our doctor recommends against sitting in the warm, hot
bath for too long. Can you explain why that is?
Because my daughter loves her bath, so I know, how
old is she?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Five?
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, And you know it's hard to.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Kind of take that away for sure, I know, you know,
I would say that at the very least, if the
bath water is warm and not too hot, certainly being
in the water for prolonged periods is drying to the skin.
So one of the strategies that you can do when
you come right out of that wet environment is moisturize
(21:02):
the skin immediately, because that's when the skin barrier is
the most permeable to hydrating moisturizers as well as medication.
If so, if she has an azema cream, that's a
great time to put it on and then to kind
of lock in that moisture.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And I find younger kids can really.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Tolerate those sticky, ecclusive moistureizures sometimes better than adults. So
I like to go with really rich moisturize and creams
for my young patients who suffer from dry skin and azema.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
So going back to cold plunges and ice cold showers,
you mentioned that there is a sudden shock to the
system and even though there can be some benefits, is
it possible that it could be harmful as well.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
So I think if you have any heart conditions or
circulatory issues, then you should definitely talk to your doctor
before doing that. A specific example might be something like raino.
So rhinos is a circulatory condition of the distal hands,
the tips of your fingers where they tend to go
white and the blood vessels really constrict, and it's actually
quite common. It's common in people with autoimmune conditions, but
(21:59):
you don't have to have an immune condition to suffer
from this, And so in that case, something like a
cold water plunge might really aggravate your rhinotes and that
might be painful and not great for your joints in
your skin. So you do have to be careful with
cold extremes because it can become to feel and become
like a burn. So frostbite is cold injury. So you
can definitely injure the tissue with extreme cold in the
(22:21):
same way that you can injure it from extreme heat.
So again, you just have to be mindful of your
underlying health conditions before you do that, and you can
easily talk to your doctrine. They can advise you if
there's going to be a trigger.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
There, and you know, are there any certain precautions that
anyone should take before embarking on that.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
So what's really important is I think number one, protecting
the skin from those extreme temperatures. So you know, something
like a cold plunge or cold bath, I think once
a week is totally sufficient. It's not something I would
recommend every day. And so the same goes for any
kind of repeated cold exposure. It can just actually aggravate
the skin. It's not really meant to be in that
environment for prolonged periods on a regular basis.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Most of the literature and cold plunges refers to this
brief exposure, so ten minutes are less okay, So you
might be able to get similar benefits by washing your
face with cold water.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
And what would you say the best way to maintain
our skin barrier would be? Like, what are the top
three habits that you recommend to your patients?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Oh, it's like a rider die kind of question, you know,
the three things you couldn't live without. I mean, the
first is, obviously if you're going to cleanse your skin,
using a moisturizing cleanser, so you're not stripping the skin
of too many natural oils and so soaps actually can
often irritate the skin because they're drying, they're a little
bit too alkaline. The second is using a moisturizer that
(23:36):
contains seramides or coloidal oat or ingredients that are known
to soothe the skin and to put moisture back in
the skin and help lock in that moisture. And I
think the third is protecting the skin from the elements.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I think that you know, the skin barrier is such
a hot topic and buzzword now, I think that we
hear about moisturizing and all of that for so long,
but now even in products, you're seeing that a lot.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah, and more that research is going that I think
is really cool is conditions that we normally associate with,
say like oily skin or like acne, let's say that
are now being better understood as some component of that
is a problem with the skin barrier. So even if
you think you've got oily skin or your prot to acne,
you still need to moisturize because improving that skin barrier
(24:19):
is part of healing that skin.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Right. I think back in the day was all about
you know, drying out your skin with these strongest stringents
and you know, basically ruining last question for you. Hot
shower or cold shower? Warm shower? That totally hedging. That's fair.
I think that that you know, it's the most pleasant.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Yeah, I think that's the most regular use for probably
most people.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
But I would say that I'm all about the extremes. Well,
it's great though.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
It really does get you going, and I would say
that that is one way to start the day. If
you can get up and go, I think do it,
but then make sure that it's tolerable for you to
do all the the rest of the things you want
to do in.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
The shower exactly, exactly. Thank you so much, Gita, Thank
you for taking the time, and it was so great
chatting with you. It was an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Thank you to both my guests, doctor gita Ya Dab
and Melissa Keegler for sharing their stories and knowledge with us.
I personally learned so much about cold punches and the
effects extreme temperatures of water can have on our body.
And even though I've been a little intimidated to do
coal punches regularly, I'm now a little more apt to
try it because of all the benefits I've heard. I
(25:32):
love the idea of the constriction of blood vessels and
then the expansion and release, creating and invigorating mental and
physical boost and of course moderation is key. We don't
want to overdo it. Just like with anything, we want
to approach cold therapy in a way that feels intuitive
and right for us. Skin Queries is hosted by myself
(25:56):
Nicole Berry, an executive produced by Evon Sheehan. Your producer
is Tory Weldon. Our junior producers are Reim Almagraby and
Jenny Cunningham. The show is mixed and features original music
by Sam Sagan. If you enjoy the show, share it
with your friends. You can also listen and follow on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(26:17):
We'd love to know what you think, so make sure
you leave a review. Until next time,
I'm sure you've noticed cold plunges are pretty trendy lately.
You've seen those videos of people slipping their freezing bodies
into ice cold water all over your social media pages.
I've tried it kind of, but if I'm being honest,
I totally prefer a hot shower. I mean, saunas and
the heat, aside from being Mormon cozy, can do wonders
for your skin. But for those who like the cold water,
(00:24):
they still feel compelled to keep at it even when
it sounds unpleasant.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I jumped off that boat and I just instantly froze.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
And I was prepared for it, but not prepared at
the same.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Time, and I immediately just thought, I think I'm getting
hypothermia instantly, and I thought, I don't know how I'm
going to make it back.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I can't do this.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
I think I'm going to disqualified. I think I'm going
to get pulled. It's not going to work. And then
it just kind of did, because you get caught up
in that excitement of a big mass event.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Hi guys, and welcome. I'm so glad you're here. Nicoleberry,
and this is Skin Querries, a show all about our
skin and its health. As we grow in age. Our
skin is really a record of a life well lived,
because there isn't one body part that I could think
of that reflects our well being as clearly as our skin.
So let's go on this journey together to really understand
(01:17):
what's going on with our skin. Let's unravel the mysteries
happening inside and out. Today we'll focus on how cold
and hot water affects our skin. Growing up, my mom,
who's Korean, always told me to stay away from the
(01:38):
cold water, and stay away from ice, stay away from
cold drinks, anything that's cold, because it can actually lead
to stagnancy in the blood and circulation. She really recommended
hot water, hot drinks, and all of those really warm things.
But now cold plunging is all the rage. Personally, I'm
an avid sauna user. I love sweating, I love the heat,
(01:59):
and I love love that it can open up your
pores and really do wonders for your skin. So I'm
really intrigued and a little scared of cold plunging myself.
But eventually I did came into cold plunging recently on vacation,
after reading all about the benefits and seeing my friends
doing it and loving it. I did enjoy the rush
of cold, and I noticed an invigoration. My skin was tighter.
(02:21):
I really felt alive, and I was curious to know
if any of these benefits were based on actual fact.
Are there any consequences to putting our skin through these
extreme temperatures. Let's dive in and answer once and for all.
Does our skin prefer cold water or hot water?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Hi?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Melissa, how are you very good today? How are you?
It's so good to see you. My first guest is
Melissa Keegler, an open water swimmer specializing in marathon, channel
and ice swimming.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
I love just the feeling of being in the water.
I grew up in Michigan, round water all the time,
so when I eventually moved out to Washington and discovered
this amazing cold water ocean out here, it was just
this new world. And that really got me into marathon swimming,
which is it starts at a distance of ten kilometers
(03:11):
and then goes up from there. And marathon swimming turned
into channel swimming, which is ultra distance marathon swimming, and
eventually turned into ice swimming, which is swimming that is
in water temperature forty one degrees fahrenheit five degrees celsius
or below.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
I just love the water.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
I love my animals, and I love everything about the
ocean out here.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
So what was it that kind of hooked you And
how did you even come to learning about open water
competitive swimming.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
So open water competitive swimming actually got into it through
triathlon and it was my aunt who lives in Florida.
She was doing a triathlon and had an injury. So
my mom's sister and I we said, Florida sounds great.
I mean, Michiganders love going to Florida. And we said,
let's make a girl's trip out of it. We'll go
down to Florida. We'll do the relay and I'll do
(04:01):
the swimming leg. And I remember getting in and just
thinking this is so cool. It was just this moment.
I was out there, I was swimming, and I could
do whatever I wanted as long as I got to
the end. There weren't rules necessarily about don't do a
stroke this way, don't do a stroke that way. If
(04:21):
you touch a wall a certain way, you're going to
get disqualified. It was so freeing. I remember getting out going.
I have no idea what just happened, but I think
I kind of like this, and I think I want
to do it again.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
So how did you go from then that to cold
slash ice swimming?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
My first cold water swim, I did the Alcatraz swim
because I thought that would be really fun.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Okay, tell us about that.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
You get on a big boat, a fairy type boat
with all the other competitors. The boat goes out to
Alcatraz Island, drops you off, and then you swim into
the San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
As if you're truly escaping.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
Yes, yes, and I definitely wore a black and white
stripe suit under my wet suit. But I was had
to tow full knia pre because I just thought it's cold.
But it's a relatively short swim, so I thought, okay,
I could deal with it.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Nicole.
Speaker 2 (05:12):
I jumped off that boat and I just instantly froze.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
And I was prepared for it, but not prepared at
the same time, and I immediately just thought, I think
I'm getting hypothermia instantly, and I thought, I don't know
how I'm going to make it back. I can't do this.
I think I'm gonna be disqualified. I think I'm going
to be an ice cube. I think I'm going to
get pulled. It's not going to work. And then it
just kind of did, because you get caught up in
that excitement of a big mass event.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Then Melissa moved to Seattle for work, and she had
no other option but to swim in cold water. In
the summer, the average temperature of the water is fifty
three degrees and in the winter it's forty five. And
in twenty twenty two, Melissa shattered the US national distance
record for the International Ice Swimming Associations Ice Mile event,
(06:00):
completed a one point four mile swim in thirty nine
point two degrees water. So impressive and inspiring. So I
had to ask her how she trades her body to
handle being in the ice water.
Speaker 2 (06:12):
So you're doing a lot of cold ice baths where
I'll be outside in a cold plunge for you know,
forty five minutes to an hour just sitting there, which
is very different than cold plunging, I think to what
most people think it is, it's a lot of just
freezing yourself intentionally as much as you can to build
(06:33):
up and maintain that cold resistance. So there's a lot
less swimming, I would say for ice swimming season and
a lot more cold conditioning that goes on because you
have to prepare your body for that level of cold exposure.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
How would you describe your skin reacting when you do
go into a plunge.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
It almost feels like your skin is burning in a way,
or like you have a sunburn, and you know, you
get in a shower for the first time, and maybe
you don't really realize you have a sunburn until that
first drop of water hits your skin. You'd go oh,
and you just kind of freak out a little bit.
And it's just this strange feeling of essentially your skin
(07:16):
in your blood vessels within your body, essentially moving the
blood away from your extremities and the outside of your
body into your body to preserve life in your core organs.
Why it feels so painful, I have no idea, But
what I can say is that after ten minutes, when
you're numb, you don't feel it anymore.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
So for someone who's been doing it now for years
and years, I'm so interested to hear how that's affected
your skin and your health.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
I think the cold water, at least for me, has
definitely it makes me feel like it's kept me looking youthful,
and young, so there's the aesthetic benefit of the cold water,
and then with salt water, it's almost like you're getting
a micro scrub I guess a mini facial while you're
in there.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
But Melissa puts her body through extreme temperatures and that
can have detrimental effects.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
One of the things I try to talk to people about,
especially people in coaching or people that are curious about
ice swimming, is the potential for nerve damage is really
real in your extremities. A couple of my toes on
my right foot, I'm pretty sure have nerve damage because
when I walk outside in the grass in the morning
without shoes on, and you know, you get that morning dew.
(08:33):
The minute water hits those two toes, it's just immense pain.
And one of the other interesting skin things that has
actually developed just within the last year is cold urdicaria. Essentially,
it's an allergy to the cold, and what ends up
happening is I'll go swimming and the water will be cold,
(08:53):
and then about I don't know anywhere from two to
six hours afterwards, my face will start to swell up
and I'll get big hives and rashes. I did find
in talking to my doctor that the people that do
have this condition, they're prone to sudden unconsciousness, which on
land isn't necessarily a big issue. But if you're in
(09:15):
the water and you pass out, you could drown almost
instantly because it only takes about half a cup of
water to fill your lungs and drown.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
And has that happened to you yet or no? No, okay,
thank god.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, you can take antihistamines to hopefully calm your skin
down before you get in the water. I've also tried
petroleum jelly like vacoline or other topical ointments to put
on the affected areas before I get in the water. Now,
I do have an EpiPen that I carry with me
at the beach. My swim friends know where it is,
(09:47):
just in case something happened. So I do have safety
measures that I put in place for myself. But then
also I accept the risk if something does happen that
that's a decision that I made for myself.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Tell us about how you prepare your skin for all
the intense cold plunges. What's your skincare routine like? Is
it a deliberate skincare routine to withstand the cold?
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I think when the water is super cold, my skin
chafes more. Anybody who's chafed understands what I'm talking about.
It is one of the most painful things, and it
chafes in different places depending on the water conditions, whether
it's flat or wavy, fresh or salty. So making sure
I have a product for my skin that is safe
(10:32):
for the environment, that you know doesn't come off in
the water, because one thing, it's bad for the water,
the body of water you're in, the plants and the animals,
but also you are not protected from shaping if it
comes off. So using something that's super heavy that sticks
is great, But then you have the problem of clogged pores,
and is there a.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Way you prevent these products from clogging your pores?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
So I just need to make sure I have some
really really good so to really cleanse the area, get
things off, and then you know, just make sure I
hydrate afterwards.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
And I think that's the other thing too.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
I find in the cold water, I need to use
body moisturizers and lotions a lot more because my skin
gets super super dry after the cold water.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
After a cold plunder, a cold swim, do you typically
take a hot shower, a hot bath or do you
take going right into the cold I don't do. I
don't do cold showers. That's so ironic.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
The cold shower is just horrendous. The shower to me
is my one place of joy and warmth during the week.
That is so fair and I like keeping it that way.
So do you do it like extra hot warm?
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I would say average warm.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
I mean, whether I'm taking a shower in the summer
after a cold swim, it's it's all the same temperature.
I've gone into saunas and for me, saunas don't work.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
What do you mean it doesn't work for you? So
for me it actually burns my skin.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
I wanted to try the whole you know, cold water
seaside saana thing, and I was in the sauna. I
mean it's warm in there, of course it is, but
I guess I didn't realize how long I was in
there and my skin. I came out and my skin
was super inflamed and red all over and essentially my
skin almost burned and was like that for two days.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Well, thank you so much for sharing your practice and
your experience. Absolutely thank you too. Melissa made me realize
that there can be very real consequences if you stay
in the water for too long. But whether that's hot
or cold, long term exposure comes with risks. Now, let's
talk to a dermatologist who has looked at and done
research on the effects of these extreme temperatures on our skin.
(12:40):
She'll tell us how we can reap the benefits without
causing damage. Right after the break, welcome back to skin queries.
We're trying to figure out the real benefits of cold
and hot water on Is it just a trendy craze
(13:02):
or is there real science behind it? And how do
you take care of your skin when you're putting it
through these extreme temperatures. To help me answer these questions,
we're bringing in doctor gita Ya Dab, a dermatologist and
the founder of Facet Dermatology. Hi, Hi, how are you?
Thank you for being here with us and chatting. I'm
(13:22):
really excited to get into the nitty gritty of water,
be it cold, hot, and everything in between.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Do you mind introducing yourself first? My name is Ghita Yadev.
I'm a board certified dermatologist. I've got my own practice
on the East end of the city. I practice medical
dirm cosmetic derm. I do clinical trials, and I love
being on social media to help educate my patients and followers.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So what are some of the claims that cold plunges
can do for your health, for your skin, for your complexion.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
So a lot of people report feeling invigorated inside and out.
They sort of get a sense of a high on
endorphins after a cold place, but there's also sort of
a thrill.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
For most people.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
A cold plunge can be relatively harmless, but it still
feels daring or risky and brave. So there's a real
excitement that comes with the suddenness of the change in
temperature and that activity.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
I can speak like for myself when I do a
cold plunch, which is rarely because I am definitely little
scared than timid when it comes to immersing myself in
cold water, I definitely do feel that high and just
like that surge of energy. So is there anything you
could speak to biochemically that's happening to the body when
one does a cold plunge.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
So cold water definitely shocks our bodies. It causes our
heart rates to spike, and it can induce a host
of hormones, including dopamine, cortisol, serotonin, nor epernephrine to increase,
and that all has an impact on how we feel.
And there's one study that showed sort of a short
term cold water plunge can improve a person's positive affect
(14:54):
So a person can feel increased enthusiasm, a sense of
alertness or energy, higher ability to con andrade, all while
reducing negative affects, which includes feelings of fear, nervousness, anger,
and guilt. So when we're exposed to cold temperatures, our
blood vessels kind of constrict to help minimize the heat loss.
That reduces blood flow, and that can even reduce pain
and inflammation. So you have to kind of extrapolate that
(15:16):
a little bit, but there are definitely physiologic effects that
are happening when you put your body into that sudden
shock of cold water. Another thing I should say is
that we're related to inflammation. I think the lot of
what we're talking about in healthcare today has to do
with the impacts of inflammation inside the body and on
our skin and how it promotes aging or unwellness. And
(15:37):
I would say that some of the benefits of reducing
inflammation throughout the body, it can be helpful for muscle recovery,
chronic pain, arthritis, and other things.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
It can definitely make us feel better. So you talk
about constriction of blood vessels, which I find so interesting.
Does that then relate to kind of the tightening of
the pores, because I know this is something that I
see on Instagram or TikTok that you know, dunk your
face in a bowl of ice water tightens and brightens
everything and is like instant botox. Is that true?
Speaker 3 (16:08):
There is a reduction in blood flow that occurs when
you're in cold water, and that is often most noticeable
on the skin. So our bodies tend to redirect blood
flow towards protecting our deeper tissues, our internal organs, and
that creates these noticeable changes in the skin that can
make the skin rapidly firm up, make it look smoother,
specially cellulite tip. And it could make your pores appure
(16:31):
tighter as well, minimizing that look of redness. It can
also be helpful for acne, reducing some inflammation. It can
help regulate sebum production. Actually, lastly, I would say it
can help stimulate new collagen information, helping the skin look
firmer and smoother over time.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
But the question is how long that'll last for.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
So the data really supports these shorter plunges, and the
durability of those results has not been measured clearly in
the evidence.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
I'm half Korean, and what's interesting is that when it
comes to Eastern Asian philosophy, we're taught to kind of
steer away from cold water and ice plunges and everything.
My mom grew up telling me that don't put ice
on your face, you need to boost circulation, and exactly
for what you just said, it constricts blood flow. I
just how do you reckoncile exactly?
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Just find that so interesting it is it's really it's
neat how different cultures view sort of the soothing or
the aggravating potential. I mean, I would say from a
healing aspect in terms of the skin, often we use
heat and energy to create changes to the skin. In
office procedures, we also have to use cooling and soothing
to help from a healing perspective, So I think it
(17:40):
really depends on what you're trying to achieve in terms
of the skin benefit and the skin health. And certainly
if you're experiencing some inflammation in the skin, maybe not
sort of a really shocking cold plunge, but you know,
a cooling cream on your face, or sometimes I advise
my patients who haven't like a lot of inflamation their skin,
like eczema, to put their medications in the fridge. But
(18:02):
even their medications are cooling and soothing and help them
when they apply it.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
I mentioned before, I'm personally a big proponent of sweating
sauna work, and I post about my daily inference sauna
a lot. So I'm curious what are the benefits when
it comes to the flip side of cold therapy.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
There's actually a little bit more information in that area
that I've thought was really interesting because so there are
few cultural communities that really are big proponents of, you know,
sweat lodges or of saunas. The Finish are famous for
their finish saunas and the value that that has on health,
and the same goes with sweat lodges in indigenous cultures,
(18:41):
and some data has been shown that there's improved cardiovascular
benefits to going through regular exposure to these treatments. In
terms of your skin health, certainly exposure to that warmth
helps sort of decongest the pores and opens them up
and encourage which is circulation, So that can definitely improve healing.
(19:03):
But in patients who struggle with pigmentation, I'm always very
mindful about the exposure to heat because all heat sort
of is related to infrared radiation to the skin, and
that can actually encourage pigmentation and pigmentary abnormalities.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
So that's so interesting.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Be a bit careful if you're prone to pigmentation. Even
exposure to cooking heat, like if you're getting stuff in
and out of an oven, can aggravate people's pigmentation.
Speaker 1 (19:27):
Not getting too close to the oven for a whole
variety of reasons, probably, right.
Speaker 3 (19:31):
You know, we often think of malasma and stuff related
to the sun, and we you know, everybody's pretty conscious
of sun. But protecting your skin from the heat can
also be really important.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
And when you talk about extreme heat, can having a
hot shower, because I mean I love getting into like
a scalding hot shower and then ending it with the cold,
But can that be detrimental to skin?
Speaker 3 (19:51):
Yeah, so definitely, I advise my patients who have exzema
or so arisis. Even though sometimes those burning hot showers
can feel so amazing, actually can be very drying to
the skin and very irritating, and that increased circulation to
the skin actually means that all those bud vestles vasodilate,
and all those itch factors, it all gets aggravated. The
inflammation the skin gets aggravated, and then patients starts scratching
(20:13):
their skin. So even though it can kind of feel
satisfying initially, it can be quite damaging in the long run.
So I really do advise my patients to avoid hot
showers and certainly prolonged hot showers.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
My daughter, actually, she has eggzma from time to time,
and our doctor recommends against sitting in the warm, hot
bath for too long. Can you explain why that is?
Because my daughter loves her bath, so I know, how
old is she?
Speaker 2 (20:40):
Five?
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, And you know it's hard to.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
Kind of take that away for sure, I know, you know,
I would say that at the very least, if the
bath water is warm and not too hot, certainly being
in the water for prolonged periods is drying to the skin.
So one of the strategies that you can do when
you come right out of that wet environment is moisturize
(21:02):
the skin immediately, because that's when the skin barrier is
the most permeable to hydrating moisturizers as well as medication.
If so, if she has an azema cream, that's a
great time to put it on and then to kind
of lock in that moisture.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
And I find younger kids can really.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Tolerate those sticky, ecclusive moistureizures sometimes better than adults. So
I like to go with really rich moisturize and creams
for my young patients who suffer from dry skin and azema.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
So going back to cold plunges and ice cold showers,
you mentioned that there is a sudden shock to the
system and even though there can be some benefits, is
it possible that it could be harmful as well.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
So I think if you have any heart conditions or
circulatory issues, then you should definitely talk to your doctor
before doing that. A specific example might be something like raino.
So rhinos is a circulatory condition of the distal hands,
the tips of your fingers where they tend to go
white and the blood vessels really constrict, and it's actually
quite common. It's common in people with autoimmune conditions, but
(21:59):
you don't have to have an immune condition to suffer
from this, And so in that case, something like a
cold water plunge might really aggravate your rhinotes and that
might be painful and not great for your joints in
your skin. So you do have to be careful with
cold extremes because it can become to feel and become
like a burn. So frostbite is cold injury. So you
can definitely injure the tissue with extreme cold in the
(22:21):
same way that you can injure it from extreme heat.
So again, you just have to be mindful of your
underlying health conditions before you do that, and you can
easily talk to your doctrine. They can advise you if
there's going to be a trigger.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
There, and you know, are there any certain precautions that
anyone should take before embarking on that.
Speaker 3 (22:36):
So what's really important is I think number one, protecting
the skin from those extreme temperatures. So you know, something
like a cold plunge or cold bath, I think once
a week is totally sufficient. It's not something I would
recommend every day. And so the same goes for any
kind of repeated cold exposure. It can just actually aggravate
the skin. It's not really meant to be in that
environment for prolonged periods on a regular basis.
Speaker 1 (22:58):
That makes sense.
Speaker 3 (22:59):
Most of the literature and cold plunges refers to this
brief exposure, so ten minutes are less okay, So you
might be able to get similar benefits by washing your
face with cold water.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
And what would you say the best way to maintain
our skin barrier would be? Like, what are the top
three habits that you recommend to your patients?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
Oh, it's like a rider die kind of question, you know,
the three things you couldn't live without. I mean, the
first is, obviously if you're going to cleanse your skin,
using a moisturizing cleanser, so you're not stripping the skin
of too many natural oils and so soaps actually can
often irritate the skin because they're drying, they're a little
bit too alkaline. The second is using a moisturizer that
(23:36):
contains seramides or coloidal oat or ingredients that are known
to soothe the skin and to put moisture back in
the skin and help lock in that moisture. And I
think the third is protecting the skin from the elements.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
I think that you know, the skin barrier is such
a hot topic and buzzword now, I think that we
hear about moisturizing and all of that for so long,
but now even in products, you're seeing that a lot.
Speaker 3 (23:59):
Yeah, and more that research is going that I think
is really cool is conditions that we normally associate with,
say like oily skin or like acne, let's say that
are now being better understood as some component of that
is a problem with the skin barrier. So even if
you think you've got oily skin or your prot to acne,
you still need to moisturize because improving that skin barrier
(24:19):
is part of healing that skin.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Right. I think back in the day was all about
you know, drying out your skin with these strongest stringents
and you know, basically ruining last question for you. Hot
shower or cold shower? Warm shower? That totally hedging. That's fair.
I think that that you know, it's the most pleasant.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
Yeah, I think that's the most regular use for probably
most people.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
But I would say that I'm all about the extremes. Well,
it's great though.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
It really does get you going, and I would say
that that is one way to start the day. If
you can get up and go, I think do it,
but then make sure that it's tolerable for you to
do all the the rest of the things you want
to do in.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
The shower exactly, exactly. Thank you so much, Gita, Thank
you for taking the time, and it was so great
chatting with you. It was an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Thank you to both my guests, doctor gita Ya Dab
and Melissa Keegler for sharing their stories and knowledge with us.
I personally learned so much about cold punches and the
effects extreme temperatures of water can have on our body.
And even though I've been a little intimidated to do
coal punches regularly, I'm now a little more apt to
try it because of all the benefits I've heard. I
(25:32):
love the idea of the constriction of blood vessels and
then the expansion and release, creating and invigorating mental and
physical boost and of course moderation is key. We don't
want to overdo it. Just like with anything, we want
to approach cold therapy in a way that feels intuitive
and right for us. Skin Queries is hosted by myself
(25:56):
Nicole Berry, an executive produced by Evon Sheehan. Your producer
is Tory Weldon. Our junior producers are Reim Almagraby and
Jenny Cunningham. The show is mixed and features original music
by Sam Sagan. If you enjoy the show, share it
with your friends. You can also listen and follow on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(26:17):
We'd love to know what you think, so make sure
you leave a review. Until next time,
Host
Nicole Berrie
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