June 20, 2024 • 22 mins
In this episode of Skinquiries, we’re talking to men about men because we wanted to check in and see how they’re thinking about their skin these days. It’s a topic often overlooked in skincare conversations, so let’s explore the stigma surrounding skincare for men and how it contradicts the reality of acne, plaque psoriasis, and other skin issues.
Dermatologist, skincare line founder, and content maker, Dr. Muneeb Shah, sheds light on the evolving landscape of men's skincare, while father-daughter duo Elsa and Ismael Cavazos, talk about challenging stereotypes and breaking free from societal norms.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
I'm not a shamed to say that I put a
lot of time and effort as well as money into
my own skin. I love all the treatments, I love
all the lasers. But according to doctor Munibe Shat, not
everyone can say the same.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The guys always inevitably are like, there's resistance to like
accepting that they actually care.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
They don't want to admit that. And then visit to visit.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
You just see their personalities changing as their skin gets better.
Once they start to see progress, I think they really
kind of enjoy it. They're like, oh, this is working,
and I actually do feel better, and now I do
want to talk about my skin.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
If there's one thing I've learned so far in this podcast,
it's that healthy skin matters and it should be an
option for everyone. So let's get past those ingrained gender
norms and get to know more about men and skin. Hi, guys,
and welcome. I'm so glad you're here. I'm Nicole Berry
and this is Skin Queries, a show all about our
(00:52):
skin and its health as we grow in age. Our
skin is really a record of a life well lived,
because there isn't one body part that I can think
of that reflects our well being as clearly as our skin.
So let's go on this journey together to really understand
what's going on with our skin. Let's unravel the mysteries
happening inside and out.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Welcome back.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I can't wait to dive into this one today. It's
all about men and their skin. As you heard in
episode three, a very important person in my life dealt
with some skin issues, my husband, Nick, who has flaxorisis.
Nick is the guy who moves boxes, carry stuff, literally
builds our house with his bare hands. Yet he still
felt self conscious when his own hands became very red
(01:42):
and swollen. How he looked affected how he operated in
the world. So few of us are immune from that,
which goes against the stereotype that men are tough, they
have thick skin, and they don't care about what they
look like or their skin care. But limiting people and
setting expectations about what they are and are not supposed
to care about doesn't serve anyone. So instead of digging
(02:03):
up old gender stereotypes, we figured we go straight to
the source and ask men, how do you take care
of your skin?
Speaker 5 (02:10):
That's never something I can to talk about, but I
would say most men at least like wash their face
with face wash.
Speaker 6 (02:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I feel like some people will go like too far though,
buying all the products and stuff.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Like, you don't need all that. If you eat healthy
food is a big part, and like moisturize, you'll probably
be all right. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (02:26):
I just have predominant oly skin, and I think some
of the products I've been introduced by with my wife
just take care of a little bit more. I just
feel way more competent with my skin than I was.
Probably Like during my undergrad.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I had terrible acne and I tried washing my skin.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I didn't really do anything.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So now I just do it as a precaution not
to get bad acne again.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
Obviously under your beard for a lot of men to
get dry really quickly, and there's a lot of friction
that happens when you're sleeping or just touching your beard.
That's just like every day when I get out of
the shower, it's a little bit of oil and there's
a night cream.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
What do we call that?
Speaker 5 (03:01):
The Yeah, see, there you go moisturizer. So just trying
to have to be consistent with that.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
That's so funny, moisturizer. Thanks for sharing your experiences. It
goes to show we all have to start somewhere to
break it all down. We're going to talk to a
dermatologist who makes a point of including men in.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
His practice and his skincare line. Doctor MINIEB.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Shaw, speaks from his experience about what it's like to
care for your skin and how he sees it affect
other men and boys of all ages. But first we're
going to talk to father and daughter duo Elsa and
Ismael Kavazos. Elsa wrote an article about her dad for
Cosmo called Everything I Know about my skincare I learned
from my Mexican dad. Elsa says her dad destroyed stereotypes
(03:47):
by really caring about and treating his acne at a
young age, back in the nineteen seventies. He says it
was not something other men his age were doing, but
as Elsa tells it, her dad isn't like other people.
As I was so inspired by your article for Cosmo
about how everything you learned about skincare came from your dad,
(04:08):
which is such a beautiful story, and do you want
to tell us about your journey through skincare and how
it related to your dad.
Speaker 7 (04:14):
Basically, I'm a journalist and a writer, and when I
was thinking about writing something unique related to my culture
and also skin, I just instantly thought about this fact
that I learned a lot about skin from my dad.
Even though my mom is also interested in skin, it
(04:35):
was just more my dad. And once I got agny,
he like totally freaked out.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
It's ma'am, can you tell us more about your journey?
Speaker 6 (04:43):
I was born and raised writing on the border with
brownswith Texas, which is Matta Motives on the Mexican side.
And because I had a ni la kabout to say
fourteen fifteen years old. One time I read an article
in a magazine and I read that some products were
good for my skin, particularly my skin care was for
the face. And then I realized that if I didn't
take care of myself, nobody else is going to do it.
(05:06):
So I started taking care of my skin.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
So what did you do?
Speaker 6 (05:10):
I remember they called it three step, which I learned
it perfectly. It was first of all, a soap the bar.
The second step, we were using a liquid like a cleanser,
a liquid one. Then you were using a cream like
a moisturizing cream. That was a three step, right, and
I used it for many, many years. I'm selling it too,
and I'm still taking care of my skin with soap,
(05:33):
with a cleanser and moisturizing.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Well, your skin shows, it looks amazing, You're glowing. And
so back in the seventies, what was it like around
men and skin care did you feel did you feel
proud about using it? Were you kind of embarrassed? I mean,
were there any feelings around you starting your own skincare
or did you not care?
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Well, I was the only one among all my friends,
and I'm talking about nobody. Nobody was using skin care products.
I was the only one in those back in those years.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
And so how did you feel about being the only one?
Speaker 6 (06:06):
Well, I was not promoting to my friends that I
was using those skincares, but I was not.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Hiding them, you know, right right, So I'm not going.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
To tell everybody, but if somebody noticed when we go
to a hotel or a field trip, they noticed, you scared. Yeah,
I think I'm a skin but it was kind of strange, rare.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, And it's hard to be the only one doing
anything right to be a trailblazer. How did you figure
out that your dad was going to be such an
interesting subject to others, like what made you think to
write about him?
Speaker 7 (06:42):
So, I think it's interesting you asked him if he
was scared to go to the store or like embarrassed.
I don't think this man is ever embarrassed to do anything,
Like he's just he's so like my parents are so
unapologized themselves, and I don't think they're ever like, oh,
(07:03):
how is this going to look like?
Speaker 1 (07:05):
They?
Speaker 5 (07:05):
I don't.
Speaker 7 (07:05):
They don't live their life by how society does.
Speaker 6 (07:10):
You know?
Speaker 7 (07:10):
And I think that's how I was raised. So I
wanted to talk about the way that we see men, right,
and I wrote it in the article. My dad is
one of the people I know that cries the most,
and a lot of people always say like, oh, I've
never seen my dad cry, and like my dad is
so like oh, men can't cry, and like you can't
(07:32):
be sensitive and this and that, and I wanted to
I wanted to talk about that.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Sorry.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I think that also you mentioned in your article you
know the term metrosexual, right, It's yes, it sometimes can
have kind of like a negative connotation, right if a
man gets his manicures or if he has a skincare routine,
so exactly, So you're really turning that on its head
by sharing, you know, your dad's story, who you admire
(08:00):
so much as kind of like the patriarch of your family,
yet he values his own self care totally.
Speaker 7 (08:07):
To be completely honest, I think my dad takes better
care of his skin than I do my own. I'm
really lazy, Like I'd be lying if I said, oh
my gosh, I have this tense step routine that like
a lot of people now have. However, I care about
it and I exfoliate and if I have the chance
(08:30):
to get a facial every now and then, I do it.
But in general, I think now we have so many
male celebrities who like embody and like promote taking care
of yourself in the way that you carry yourself. I
just think it's a little odd that some men are
still like.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Oh, like there's a disconnection, yeah, or.
Speaker 7 (08:51):
They're like what for, Like what am I trying to impress?
Speaker 4 (08:54):
I'm like, impress yourself, impress yourself.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I really love that.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
And there's more to come.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
We have dermatologists and skincare brand founder doctor Minipe Shaw
to pull back the curtain on men and skin. Coming
up right after the break, Welcome back to skin Querries. Hi,
(09:22):
doctor Shaw, Welcome to Skin Queries. We're so excited to
have you here.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Thank you for having me on. I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit
about your practice and what you do.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, I'm doctor manneebe Shah.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I'm a board certified dermatologist in both general dermatology and
even surgical dermatology. I really do all aspects of anything
that you could think of that has to do with
the skin. So I practice in Hutson Yards in New
York City. I do cosmetics. That's your everything from your
lasers to your botox to your fillers. I do skin
cancer removals, I do skin checks, acne, psoriasis, pretty much everything.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So that's kind of what I do.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
And I started creating content on social media about four
years ago, and it's really defined how I practice. I've
learned so much from people on the internet, what their
concerns are for the skin. It's informed what I do
in the office with my patients and kind of vice versa.
So it's been interesting to see the world from both
lenses over the last four years.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I think that's so interesting because I think that content
creation on social media around skin and dermatology. Has guyrocketed
and really informed so many people to also then ask questions,
go see their dermatologists and just learn more.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
At least for me, it has.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Do you find that when it comes to men, that
this has shifted the perspective of men and skincare in general?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I mean, I think social media in general, especially the
way that the TikTok and now the Instagram Real and
YouTube short algorithm works, is they're showing you content from
people that you don't follow, So you're learning all new
things and new interests that you never knew that you
had any idea that it would be something that you
would like. And I think men have now been exposed
to skincare, probably for the first time, and they're like, Wow,
this is pretty interesting and I do want better skin.
(10:58):
I just didn't know that it was accessible or how
to even start. So I think that social media has
created this niche of men that are very interested in
skincare and skin health in general.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
What is the ratio of patients you have in the
city that come into your office.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Is it mostly women? Is it mostly man or is
it kind of even?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
It's definitely not even.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
It's mostly women, and it's true on my social media
platforms as well. It's about eighty percent women and about
twenty percent men.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Interesting, but I would.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Say that twenty percent men for like a skincare and
beauty creator, dermatology creator.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
It's high is extremely.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
High, right, And so what are some of men's concerns
that you see coming into your office or in your DMS.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
It very much is like problem solution.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Usually they have some issue that they want to improve
that they've noticed, maybe their friends have pointed out, or
they noticed it in pictures, so they should come in
with something like you know, para loss is very common
for men, or I have dark circles.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I've always had dark circles. I want to improve that.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I think probably the majority, I would say like seventy
five percent are coming in with a particular concern to
the office for men, and then the other twenty five
percent that have this like less tangible concern. But it's
like it's almost like a skin health Like I just
want to have healthy skin, and I want to know
what I can be doing to have healthier skin for longer.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Are there certain misconceptions about men's skin that we've been
told kind of old wives tales that maybe that they
don't need to cleanse as much, that their skin is
tougher than women's.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
You know what is true what isn't true.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Difference is wise in the skin. And we've looked at
these studies over time. There is some variation from study
to study, so it hasn't been consistent across like what
the differences are. But in general, men tend to have
oilier skin, especially like pre fifties, and that's pretty consistent
across the board, but some studies have said that they're
about exactly the same. Most studies show that men have
thicker skin, so more collagen, and then that collagen level
(12:48):
decreases linear with time. So basically from the age of
like twenty and on, like men start to lose collagen
at like a linear rate, where women they have like
a pretty much exponential drop off around menopause because of
the loss of estrogen and progesterone, and so in general
the drop off in collagen decreases more in women, and
also they tend to like have thinner skin at baseline
(13:11):
and less collagen at baseline.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So when you got into medicine, did you always know
that you wanted to be a dermatologist specifically, or what
drew you to the skin?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
No, yeah, like I had a really kind of long
and convoluted pathway to get to this point. I initially
selected radiology out of med school. After a year, I realized,
like I missed seeing patients, and I applied to DRM
not knowing much about like what I was going to
get into. I just knew that I was like personally
passionate about skin and hair, and I was like, well,
it's something I have a hobby and so like, but why.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Were you passionate about it? What made you?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I did a good question. I don't know, like I was.
It's kind of hard to explain. But I don't know
if anyone's going to relate to this.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Where do you?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Where are you based out of just out of curious? Okay,
so you'll really you'll know what I'm talking about. So,
So I grew up in New York and I was
like part of that like Jim hand laundry generation.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Okay, as a Jersey girl and someone who watched MTV
in the early aughts, I totally get the reference. But
for those who don't know what Jim Tam laundry is,
it's originally from MTV's hit show The Jersey Shore, where
the guys on the show described their daily routine getting fit,
getting some sun, and taking care of their outfits.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Jim Tam Laundry.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
The Jim Taanned Laundry crew is very much into skincare,
and you know, I feel right, they're very much into
their whole look.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Right exactly, Like, yeah, there was like the gateways into
things I always feel like, and I think hair was
sort of the gateway from me into skin.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
So were you like a poly d situation.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I was, that's that's so like I realized the power
and confidence that a good haircut gave me when I
was like fifteen. You know, I got like a nice
haircut and I was like, well, like I feel like
I look good, I feel confident. And then I just
got like tasched this idea of like getting a nice haircut,
and so I would go to the same barber forever
and I would like really be like okay, like I'm
(15:04):
getting a haircut, like it's going to be a good
day for me. And then it became like eyebrows. This
was kind of like my natural progression. And then the
next step was like skincare it was like, oh, I
want Like I started to get acne, and then I
was like, I really want to have better skin, Like
I don't want to have acne. So to me, it
was like it was really just kind of like a
focus on my appearances and feeling confident in my own
hair and then my own skin.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
And so that's kind of how I got there.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
But I was part of that group of people who
cared a lot about hair first.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
You know, I have an eight year old son and
he's obviously non skincare yet, but there is that trend
of kind of like the Sephora preteens very much into skincare,
like the girls cleaning out Sephora shelves. What would you
say is the right age when it comes to boys
preteens getting into a regiment, you know, acne. I think
(15:50):
there's a stigma around that even at such a young age.
Yet then they feel kind of embarrassed to start addressing it.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Yeah, how would you approach that?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
A lot of my like teenage male patients, they come
in and they're always like a lot of times their
parents will be kind of speaking for them interestingly.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
So they'll how like, what age do they usually come in?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
And probably around like fifteen sixteen, and they're really quiet
and they you know, they have bad acne usually and
their mom's like, he's a really bad acne. It really
bothers him. And the guys are always inevitably are like no,
like you know it, it's no big deal, like I
don't care, like it is what it is type of thing.
But you know, usually generally they're pretty compliant once you
give them something to use. Let's say you follow up
(16:30):
in two to three months, visit to visit. You just
see their personalities changing as their skin gets better. They're
more like interactive with you, and then they start to like, oh, well,
you know, like I have some acne scars, now like
what can I do? So like, once they start to
see progress, I think they really kind of enjoy it.
They're like, oh this is working and I actually do
feel better, and now I do want to talk about
my skin. I want my skin to even be even better.
(16:51):
So I think usually there's resistance to like accepting that
they actually care. They don't want to admit that, and
I think once they admit it and they know what
to do, they'll actually follow through and do it and
actually start to care more and more about their skin.
So watching that like shift from like I don't care
about this really bad acne to like, oh, this like
tiny little thing is bothering me. Now, Yeah, it was
(17:11):
sort of an interesting and interesting shift. But I do
think like this whole sephoritein thing is totally gotten out
of hand. You have kids with like I've seen on TikTok,
like twenty step skincare routines. It's not good for the
skin to be using that many products at such a
young age because the more you're exposed to things are
more likely the order to develop, like sensitization and allergies.
So for people like at a young age who are
(17:32):
now exposing themselves to so much and that's going to
have long lasting effects on how their skin reacts to
things in the future.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Right. Another thing is facial hair and beards. As far
as maintenance, what do you recommend? I mean, I just
remember with my dad pim splashing a very strong cologned
after shape onto his face and you know, it smells
the whole house smelled of it for like three days later.
(17:58):
I just can't imagine that could be good for your skin.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Some men put a lot of effort into this, especially
you have like a longer beard that you've been grown
for like a year.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah, you can get very very passionate.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
About this badge of honor.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I guess it is, yeah, the thicker the beard.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
But with facial hair, yeah, it is a little bit
more complex because one beards harbor tons of bacteria, So
men really need to like cleanse their beard thoroughly and
you can use your traditional facial cleanser on it. Now,
if you have a longer beard, I actually recommend that
you treat it like almost like scalp hair in the
sense that you would like shampoo and condition afterwards, and
then even potentially use a beard oil.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
But if you have like a beard.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
That's like mine, which is a three on the trimmer,
you could get away with like a traditional facial cleanser
at that point. And then you know, things that men
have with beards a lot of times that they deal
with is ingrown hairs and after care of the beard.
I really like glycolic acid exfolians just in general to
prevent ingrown hairs, and it doesn't have all that alcohol
and fragrance that traditional after shapes would have in them,
(18:57):
but it's going to have that same benefit that you
would get from a traditional after shape.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Marketing can have a lot to do with it, right.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, you can have the greatest product, but if you
don't know how to market it, then like nobody knows
about it and nobody will buy it. And so part
of the reason why like men's skincare, like in the
Men's Skincare Aisles, has become what it's become is because
they've found that it sells more if they do it
that way. Now, you could put the same product in
pink packaging and it would do the same exact thing.
It's just that probably men would feel like, oh, I
don't want to put this on my counter, And hopefully
(19:23):
we get to a day where you know, men don't
feel it they can't put a pink product on the counter.
But right now, I think we're still in that place,
right and we have to kind of take it where
it's at. So, in general, what you'll find in like
the men's skincare aisles is like products that are like
in black or gray color tones. You'll find that a
lot of products are like more foaming, especially cleansers, because
consumer perception says that men prefer like a foaming cleanser.
(19:46):
You'll also find mint in products like that men Thal
feel men tend to prefer that, and so even though
it's not a good ingredient for the skin, you'll find
it in a lot of men's skincare products just because
they actually like and enjoy that experience a little bit
better than a tradation cleanser or moisturizer.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Well, thank you, doctor Shah, Thank you for taking the
time to chat.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
However you present yourself to the world, you most likely
care about your skin, and that's a good thing. I
think we're past the point of calling people vain or
shallow for caring how they look and wanting to feel
their best, because when it comes to our skin, we
want to keep it healthy and keep up appearances. But
also sometimes skin conditions can be painful. We talked a
lot about acne today and whether it's acne or claxoriasis
(20:31):
or any kind of inflammation, help is out there and
there's no need to be embarrassed that you care, and
that is the first step in healing. That's it for
our show today, but I want to give the final
word to our stereotype busting early skincare adopter ismael capsis.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
In my opinion, people must use products for skin care.
It is necessary, It is good for your skin, it
is good for your health, and the better you look psychologically,
the better you're going to feel. But using products for
skin I've been using those for the last forty almost
fifty years and thanks to them, you know, I feel better.
My advice would be go to specialists, get the information,
(21:10):
go to reliable sources about skincare.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
That's my advice, and great advice it is.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Our guests today were doctor Medeeb Shaw and Elsa Cavazos
with her father is Mael Kavazos.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
A massive thanks to all.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Skin Cares is hosted by myself Nicole Berry and executive
produced by Yvonne Sheehan.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Our senior producer is Tory Weldon.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Our junior producers are reem El mcgraby and Austin Johnson.
The show is mixed and features original music by Sam Sagam.
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leave a review until next time
I'm not a shamed to say that I put a
lot of time and effort as well as money into
my own skin. I love all the treatments, I love
all the lasers. But according to doctor Munibe Shat, not
everyone can say the same.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
The guys always inevitably are like, there's resistance to like
accepting that they actually care.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
They don't want to admit that. And then visit to visit.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
You just see their personalities changing as their skin gets better.
Once they start to see progress, I think they really
kind of enjoy it. They're like, oh, this is working,
and I actually do feel better, and now I do
want to talk about my skin.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
If there's one thing I've learned so far in this podcast,
it's that healthy skin matters and it should be an
option for everyone. So let's get past those ingrained gender
norms and get to know more about men and skin. Hi, guys,
and welcome. I'm so glad you're here. I'm Nicole Berry
and this is Skin Queries, a show all about our
(00:52):
skin and its health as we grow in age. Our
skin is really a record of a life well lived,
because there isn't one body part that I can think
of that reflects our well being as clearly as our skin.
So let's go on this journey together to really understand
what's going on with our skin. Let's unravel the mysteries
happening inside and out.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Welcome back.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
I can't wait to dive into this one today. It's
all about men and their skin. As you heard in
episode three, a very important person in my life dealt
with some skin issues, my husband, Nick, who has flaxorisis.
Nick is the guy who moves boxes, carry stuff, literally
builds our house with his bare hands. Yet he still
felt self conscious when his own hands became very red
(01:42):
and swollen. How he looked affected how he operated in
the world. So few of us are immune from that,
which goes against the stereotype that men are tough, they
have thick skin, and they don't care about what they
look like or their skin care. But limiting people and
setting expectations about what they are and are not supposed
to care about doesn't serve anyone. So instead of digging
(02:03):
up old gender stereotypes, we figured we go straight to
the source and ask men, how do you take care
of your skin?
Speaker 5 (02:10):
That's never something I can to talk about, but I
would say most men at least like wash their face
with face wash.
Speaker 6 (02:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
I feel like some people will go like too far though,
buying all the products and stuff.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Like, you don't need all that. If you eat healthy
food is a big part, and like moisturize, you'll probably
be all right. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (02:26):
I just have predominant oly skin, and I think some
of the products I've been introduced by with my wife
just take care of a little bit more. I just
feel way more competent with my skin than I was.
Probably Like during my undergrad.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I had terrible acne and I tried washing my skin.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I didn't really do anything.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
So now I just do it as a precaution not
to get bad acne again.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
Obviously under your beard for a lot of men to
get dry really quickly, and there's a lot of friction
that happens when you're sleeping or just touching your beard.
That's just like every day when I get out of
the shower, it's a little bit of oil and there's
a night cream.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
What do we call that?
Speaker 5 (03:01):
The Yeah, see, there you go moisturizer. So just trying
to have to be consistent with that.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
That's so funny, moisturizer. Thanks for sharing your experiences. It
goes to show we all have to start somewhere to
break it all down. We're going to talk to a
dermatologist who makes a point of including men in.
Speaker 4 (03:21):
His practice and his skincare line. Doctor MINIEB.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Shaw, speaks from his experience about what it's like to
care for your skin and how he sees it affect
other men and boys of all ages. But first we're
going to talk to father and daughter duo Elsa and
Ismael Kavazos. Elsa wrote an article about her dad for
Cosmo called Everything I Know about my skincare I learned
from my Mexican dad. Elsa says her dad destroyed stereotypes
(03:47):
by really caring about and treating his acne at a
young age, back in the nineteen seventies. He says it
was not something other men his age were doing, but
as Elsa tells it, her dad isn't like other people.
As I was so inspired by your article for Cosmo
about how everything you learned about skincare came from your dad,
(04:08):
which is such a beautiful story, and do you want
to tell us about your journey through skincare and how
it related to your dad.
Speaker 7 (04:14):
Basically, I'm a journalist and a writer, and when I
was thinking about writing something unique related to my culture
and also skin, I just instantly thought about this fact
that I learned a lot about skin from my dad.
Even though my mom is also interested in skin, it
(04:35):
was just more my dad. And once I got agny,
he like totally freaked out.
Speaker 4 (04:40):
It's ma'am, can you tell us more about your journey?
Speaker 6 (04:43):
I was born and raised writing on the border with
brownswith Texas, which is Matta Motives on the Mexican side.
And because I had a ni la kabout to say
fourteen fifteen years old. One time I read an article
in a magazine and I read that some products were
good for my skin, particularly my skin care was for
the face. And then I realized that if I didn't
take care of myself, nobody else is going to do it.
(05:06):
So I started taking care of my skin.
Speaker 4 (05:08):
So what did you do?
Speaker 6 (05:10):
I remember they called it three step, which I learned
it perfectly. It was first of all, a soap the bar.
The second step, we were using a liquid like a cleanser,
a liquid one. Then you were using a cream like
a moisturizing cream. That was a three step, right, and
I used it for many, many years. I'm selling it too,
and I'm still taking care of my skin with soap,
(05:33):
with a cleanser and moisturizing.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Well, your skin shows, it looks amazing, You're glowing. And
so back in the seventies, what was it like around
men and skin care did you feel did you feel
proud about using it? Were you kind of embarrassed? I mean,
were there any feelings around you starting your own skincare
or did you not care?
Speaker 6 (05:51):
Well, I was the only one among all my friends,
and I'm talking about nobody. Nobody was using skin care products.
I was the only one in those back in those years.
Speaker 4 (06:04):
And so how did you feel about being the only one?
Speaker 6 (06:06):
Well, I was not promoting to my friends that I
was using those skincares, but I was not.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
Hiding them, you know, right right, So I'm not going.
Speaker 6 (06:16):
To tell everybody, but if somebody noticed when we go
to a hotel or a field trip, they noticed, you scared. Yeah,
I think I'm a skin but it was kind of strange, rare.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, And it's hard to be the only one doing
anything right to be a trailblazer. How did you figure
out that your dad was going to be such an
interesting subject to others, like what made you think to
write about him?
Speaker 7 (06:42):
So, I think it's interesting you asked him if he
was scared to go to the store or like embarrassed.
I don't think this man is ever embarrassed to do anything,
Like he's just he's so like my parents are so
unapologized themselves, and I don't think they're ever like, oh,
(07:03):
how is this going to look like?
Speaker 1 (07:05):
They?
Speaker 5 (07:05):
I don't.
Speaker 7 (07:05):
They don't live their life by how society does.
Speaker 6 (07:10):
You know?
Speaker 7 (07:10):
And I think that's how I was raised. So I
wanted to talk about the way that we see men, right,
and I wrote it in the article. My dad is
one of the people I know that cries the most,
and a lot of people always say like, oh, I've
never seen my dad cry, and like my dad is
so like oh, men can't cry, and like you can't
(07:32):
be sensitive and this and that, and I wanted to
I wanted to talk about that.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Sorry.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
I think that also you mentioned in your article you
know the term metrosexual, right, It's yes, it sometimes can
have kind of like a negative connotation, right if a
man gets his manicures or if he has a skincare routine,
so exactly, So you're really turning that on its head
by sharing, you know, your dad's story, who you admire
(08:00):
so much as kind of like the patriarch of your family,
yet he values his own self care totally.
Speaker 7 (08:07):
To be completely honest, I think my dad takes better
care of his skin than I do my own. I'm
really lazy, Like I'd be lying if I said, oh
my gosh, I have this tense step routine that like
a lot of people now have. However, I care about
it and I exfoliate and if I have the chance
(08:30):
to get a facial every now and then, I do it.
But in general, I think now we have so many
male celebrities who like embody and like promote taking care
of yourself in the way that you carry yourself. I
just think it's a little odd that some men are
still like.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
Oh, like there's a disconnection, yeah, or.
Speaker 7 (08:51):
They're like what for, Like what am I trying to impress?
Speaker 4 (08:54):
I'm like, impress yourself, impress yourself.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I really love that.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
And there's more to come.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
We have dermatologists and skincare brand founder doctor Minipe Shaw
to pull back the curtain on men and skin. Coming
up right after the break, Welcome back to skin Querries. Hi,
(09:22):
doctor Shaw, Welcome to Skin Queries. We're so excited to
have you here.
Speaker 3 (09:26):
Thank you for having me on. I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit
about your practice and what you do.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
Yeah, I'm doctor manneebe Shah.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
I'm a board certified dermatologist in both general dermatology and
even surgical dermatology. I really do all aspects of anything
that you could think of that has to do with
the skin. So I practice in Hutson Yards in New
York City. I do cosmetics. That's your everything from your
lasers to your botox to your fillers. I do skin
cancer removals, I do skin checks, acne, psoriasis, pretty much everything.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
So that's kind of what I do.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
And I started creating content on social media about four
years ago, and it's really defined how I practice. I've
learned so much from people on the internet, what their
concerns are for the skin. It's informed what I do
in the office with my patients and kind of vice versa.
So it's been interesting to see the world from both
lenses over the last four years.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
I think that's so interesting because I think that content
creation on social media around skin and dermatology. Has guyrocketed
and really informed so many people to also then ask questions,
go see their dermatologists and just learn more.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
At least for me, it has.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Do you find that when it comes to men, that
this has shifted the perspective of men and skincare in general?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Definitely.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I mean, I think social media in general, especially the
way that the TikTok and now the Instagram Real and
YouTube short algorithm works, is they're showing you content from
people that you don't follow, So you're learning all new
things and new interests that you never knew that you
had any idea that it would be something that you
would like. And I think men have now been exposed
to skincare, probably for the first time, and they're like, Wow,
this is pretty interesting and I do want better skin.
(10:58):
I just didn't know that it was accessible or how
to even start. So I think that social media has
created this niche of men that are very interested in
skincare and skin health in general.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
What is the ratio of patients you have in the
city that come into your office.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Is it mostly women? Is it mostly man or is
it kind of even?
Speaker 3 (11:15):
It's definitely not even.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
It's mostly women, and it's true on my social media
platforms as well. It's about eighty percent women and about
twenty percent men.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Interesting, but I would.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
Say that twenty percent men for like a skincare and
beauty creator, dermatology creator.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
It's high is extremely.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
High, right, And so what are some of men's concerns
that you see coming into your office or in your DMS.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
It very much is like problem solution.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Usually they have some issue that they want to improve
that they've noticed, maybe their friends have pointed out, or
they noticed it in pictures, so they should come in
with something like you know, para loss is very common
for men, or I have dark circles.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I've always had dark circles. I want to improve that.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
I think probably the majority, I would say like seventy
five percent are coming in with a particular concern to
the office for men, and then the other twenty five
percent that have this like less tangible concern. But it's
like it's almost like a skin health Like I just
want to have healthy skin, and I want to know
what I can be doing to have healthier skin for longer.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
Are there certain misconceptions about men's skin that we've been
told kind of old wives tales that maybe that they
don't need to cleanse as much, that their skin is
tougher than women's.
Speaker 4 (12:23):
You know what is true what isn't true.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Difference is wise in the skin. And we've looked at
these studies over time. There is some variation from study
to study, so it hasn't been consistent across like what
the differences are. But in general, men tend to have
oilier skin, especially like pre fifties, and that's pretty consistent
across the board, but some studies have said that they're
about exactly the same. Most studies show that men have
thicker skin, so more collagen, and then that collagen level
(12:48):
decreases linear with time. So basically from the age of
like twenty and on, like men start to lose collagen
at like a linear rate, where women they have like
a pretty much exponential drop off around menopause because of
the loss of estrogen and progesterone, and so in general
the drop off in collagen decreases more in women, and
also they tend to like have thinner skin at baseline
(13:11):
and less collagen at baseline.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
So when you got into medicine, did you always know
that you wanted to be a dermatologist specifically, or what
drew you to the skin?
Speaker 2 (13:19):
No, yeah, like I had a really kind of long
and convoluted pathway to get to this point. I initially
selected radiology out of med school. After a year, I realized,
like I missed seeing patients, and I applied to DRM
not knowing much about like what I was going to
get into. I just knew that I was like personally
passionate about skin and hair, and I was like, well,
it's something I have a hobby and so like, but why.
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Were you passionate about it? What made you?
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I did a good question. I don't know, like I was.
It's kind of hard to explain. But I don't know
if anyone's going to relate to this.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
Where do you?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
Where are you based out of just out of curious? Okay,
so you'll really you'll know what I'm talking about. So,
So I grew up in New York and I was
like part of that like Jim hand laundry generation.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Okay, as a Jersey girl and someone who watched MTV
in the early aughts, I totally get the reference. But
for those who don't know what Jim Tam laundry is,
it's originally from MTV's hit show The Jersey Shore, where
the guys on the show described their daily routine getting fit,
getting some sun, and taking care of their outfits.
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Jim Tam Laundry.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
The Jim Taanned Laundry crew is very much into skincare,
and you know, I feel right, they're very much into
their whole look.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Right exactly, Like, yeah, there was like the gateways into
things I always feel like, and I think hair was
sort of the gateway from me into skin.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
So were you like a poly d situation.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
I was, that's that's so like I realized the power
and confidence that a good haircut gave me when I
was like fifteen. You know, I got like a nice
haircut and I was like, well, like I feel like
I look good, I feel confident. And then I just
got like tasched this idea of like getting a nice haircut,
and so I would go to the same barber forever
and I would like really be like okay, like I'm
(15:04):
getting a haircut, like it's going to be a good
day for me. And then it became like eyebrows. This
was kind of like my natural progression. And then the
next step was like skincare it was like, oh, I
want Like I started to get acne, and then I
was like, I really want to have better skin, Like
I don't want to have acne. So to me, it
was like it was really just kind of like a
focus on my appearances and feeling confident in my own
hair and then my own skin.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
And so that's kind of how I got there.
Speaker 2 (15:27):
But I was part of that group of people who
cared a lot about hair first.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
You know, I have an eight year old son and
he's obviously non skincare yet, but there is that trend
of kind of like the Sephora preteens very much into skincare,
like the girls cleaning out Sephora shelves. What would you
say is the right age when it comes to boys
preteens getting into a regiment, you know, acne. I think
(15:50):
there's a stigma around that even at such a young age.
Yet then they feel kind of embarrassed to start addressing it.
Speaker 4 (15:58):
Yeah, how would you approach that?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
A lot of my like teenage male patients, they come
in and they're always like a lot of times their
parents will be kind of speaking for them interestingly.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
So they'll how like, what age do they usually come in?
Speaker 2 (16:09):
And probably around like fifteen sixteen, and they're really quiet
and they you know, they have bad acne usually and
their mom's like, he's a really bad acne. It really
bothers him. And the guys are always inevitably are like no,
like you know it, it's no big deal, like I
don't care, like it is what it is type of thing.
But you know, usually generally they're pretty compliant once you
give them something to use. Let's say you follow up
(16:30):
in two to three months, visit to visit. You just
see their personalities changing as their skin gets better. They're
more like interactive with you, and then they start to like, oh, well,
you know, like I have some acne scars, now like
what can I do? So like, once they start to
see progress, I think they really kind of enjoy it.
They're like, oh this is working and I actually do
feel better, and now I do want to talk about
my skin. I want my skin to even be even better.
(16:51):
So I think usually there's resistance to like accepting that
they actually care. They don't want to admit that, and
I think once they admit it and they know what
to do, they'll actually follow through and do it and
actually start to care more and more about their skin.
So watching that like shift from like I don't care
about this really bad acne to like, oh, this like
tiny little thing is bothering me. Now, Yeah, it was
(17:11):
sort of an interesting and interesting shift. But I do
think like this whole sephoritein thing is totally gotten out
of hand. You have kids with like I've seen on TikTok,
like twenty step skincare routines. It's not good for the
skin to be using that many products at such a
young age because the more you're exposed to things are
more likely the order to develop, like sensitization and allergies.
So for people like at a young age who are
(17:32):
now exposing themselves to so much and that's going to
have long lasting effects on how their skin reacts to
things in the future.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Right. Another thing is facial hair and beards. As far
as maintenance, what do you recommend? I mean, I just
remember with my dad pim splashing a very strong cologned
after shape onto his face and you know, it smells
the whole house smelled of it for like three days later.
(17:58):
I just can't imagine that could be good for your skin.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Some men put a lot of effort into this, especially
you have like a longer beard that you've been grown
for like a year.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah, you can get very very passionate.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
About this badge of honor.
Speaker 3 (18:09):
I guess it is, yeah, the thicker the beard.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
But with facial hair, yeah, it is a little bit
more complex because one beards harbor tons of bacteria, So
men really need to like cleanse their beard thoroughly and
you can use your traditional facial cleanser on it. Now,
if you have a longer beard, I actually recommend that
you treat it like almost like scalp hair in the
sense that you would like shampoo and condition afterwards, and
then even potentially use a beard oil.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
But if you have like a beard.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
That's like mine, which is a three on the trimmer,
you could get away with like a traditional facial cleanser
at that point. And then you know, things that men
have with beards a lot of times that they deal
with is ingrown hairs and after care of the beard.
I really like glycolic acid exfolians just in general to
prevent ingrown hairs, and it doesn't have all that alcohol
and fragrance that traditional after shapes would have in them,
(18:57):
but it's going to have that same benefit that you
would get from a traditional after shape.
Speaker 4 (19:00):
Marketing can have a lot to do with it, right.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Yeah, you can have the greatest product, but if you
don't know how to market it, then like nobody knows
about it and nobody will buy it. And so part
of the reason why like men's skincare, like in the
Men's Skincare Aisles, has become what it's become is because
they've found that it sells more if they do it
that way. Now, you could put the same product in
pink packaging and it would do the same exact thing.
It's just that probably men would feel like, oh, I
don't want to put this on my counter, And hopefully
(19:23):
we get to a day where you know, men don't
feel it they can't put a pink product on the counter.
But right now, I think we're still in that place,
right and we have to kind of take it where
it's at. So, in general, what you'll find in like
the men's skincare aisles is like products that are like
in black or gray color tones. You'll find that a
lot of products are like more foaming, especially cleansers, because
consumer perception says that men prefer like a foaming cleanser.
(19:46):
You'll also find mint in products like that men Thal
feel men tend to prefer that, and so even though
it's not a good ingredient for the skin, you'll find
it in a lot of men's skincare products just because
they actually like and enjoy that experience a little bit
better than a tradation cleanser or moisturizer.
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Well, thank you, doctor Shah, Thank you for taking the
time to chat.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
However you present yourself to the world, you most likely
care about your skin, and that's a good thing. I
think we're past the point of calling people vain or
shallow for caring how they look and wanting to feel
their best, because when it comes to our skin, we
want to keep it healthy and keep up appearances. But
also sometimes skin conditions can be painful. We talked a
lot about acne today and whether it's acne or claxoriasis
(20:31):
or any kind of inflammation, help is out there and
there's no need to be embarrassed that you care, and
that is the first step in healing. That's it for
our show today, but I want to give the final
word to our stereotype busting early skincare adopter ismael capsis.
Speaker 6 (20:46):
In my opinion, people must use products for skin care.
It is necessary, It is good for your skin, it
is good for your health, and the better you look psychologically,
the better you're going to feel. But using products for
skin I've been using those for the last forty almost
fifty years and thanks to them, you know, I feel better.
My advice would be go to specialists, get the information,
(21:10):
go to reliable sources about skincare.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
That's my advice, and great advice it is.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Our guests today were doctor Medeeb Shaw and Elsa Cavazos
with her father is Mael Kavazos.
Speaker 4 (21:25):
A massive thanks to all.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Skin Cares is hosted by myself Nicole Berry and executive
produced by Yvonne Sheehan.
Speaker 4 (21:32):
Our senior producer is Tory Weldon.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Our junior producers are reem El mcgraby and Austin Johnson.
The show is mixed and features original music by Sam Sagam.
If you enjoy the show, share it with your friends.
You can also listen and follow on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get podcasts. And we'd love
to know what you think, so please make sure to
leave a review until next time
Host
Nicole Berrie
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