December 13, 2022 • 38 mins
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Mangesh and Mary dig into the bizarre astrology scandal that rocked Ronald Reagan’s final year in office. Plus, they mine through old Johnny Carson clips and read way too many Presidential biographies.
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Episode Transcript
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Dan Taberski (00:10):
Warning. The following episode contains discussion of Ronald Reagan, pro wrestlers,
Ronald Reagan talking to pro wrestlers Johnny Carson, and a
disastrous late night pizza party. Also, astrology. Sensitive listeners, keep
your TUMS handy.
Mangesh Hattikudur (00:36):
Okay, we're gonna start this out with another slide show,
and this time it's about Hulk Hogan.
(00:57):
This is Hulk Hogan's Rock ‘n’ Wrestling. As a kid, I knew everyone was supposed to like Hulk Hogan. And sometimes I even pretended to like Hulk Hogan, even though I was not a fan. But I often watched his cartoons on Saturday mornings because they were on. This is the only Rock ‘n’ Wrestling episode I remember.
Cartoon voice (00:57):
The President wants to speak with you.
Cartoon Hulk Hogan (01:23):
Yes, Sir.
Cartoon President (01:23):
Your country is depending on you, Hulkster, don't let us down.
Mangesh Hattikudur (01:28):
In it, this cartoon Ronald Reagan asked Hulk Hogan to
go to space to rescue astronauts before a shuttle explodes.
The cartoon is seared in my brain because it aired
not long after the Challenger disaster.
Cartoon voice (01:44):
Well, what was it like being on the first wrestler
in space?
I tell you Mean Gene it was more awesome than
the combat zone.
Mangesh Hattikudur (01:52):
I also remember thinking, why do they think Hulk Hogan
can pry open a cargo bay door? Because I mean,
I know he's strong. But even in cartoon form, this
seemed dumb. And I was seven at the time.
But maybe the makers of Rock and Wrestling thought they
were doing something to help calm kids nerves.
Ronald Reagan (02:16):
And I want to say something to the school children
of America. I know it's hard to understand, but sometimes
painful things like this happen.
Mangesh Hattikudur (02:27):
That's the actual Ronald Reagan. The day after the Challenger exploded,
our first grade teacher wheeled a TV into our classroom
so the President could talk to us directly.
Ronald Reagan (02:39):
It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery.
It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons.
The future doesn't belong to the faint hearted. It belongs
to the brave.
Mangesh Hattikudur (02:57):
The future belongs to the brave. Those words embody America right?
And to preserve hope in the face of something so devastating,
so visible... Anyway, what does any of this have to
do with us? Well, the Challenger wasn't the only time
(03:20):
Reagan was thinking about the intersection of space and the future.
That's right, I'm talking about astrology. And it turns out,
in the 1980s there was a full on astrology scandal
in the Reagan White House.
Ronald Reagan (03:37):
I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe in it.
Reporter (03:40):
Do you believe in it?
Ronald Reagan (03:40):
What?
Reporter (03:40):
Do YOU believe in it.
Mangesh Hattikudur (03:40):
From Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts, I'm Mangesh Hattikudur. Welcome to
Skyline Drive
CHAPTER ONE
Ronald Reagan (04:42):
Let's start with the part that is the most controversial.
A few months ago, I told the American people I
did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my
best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts
and the evidence tell me it is not.
Mangesh Hattikudur (04:59):
The weird thing about Ronald Reagan is that he was unknowable. Like,
frustratingly unknowable. When the famed biographer Edmund Morris got three
million dollars to do an official biography, he spent fourteen
years interviewing and shadowing Reagan. But when he turned in
his book, he switched it from a biography to fiction.
(05:20):
And when he was asked why he did that with
his manuscript on 60 Minutes, Morris said, "He was truly
one of the strangest men who ever lived. Nobody around
him understood him. Every person I interviewed, almost without exception,
eventually would say, you know, I could never really figure
him out."
(05:41):
Think about that. Fourteen years of access and Morris couldn't
figure out how to accurately write about the man and
what he stood for. And maybe that's why my mom
and dad had such different opinions of Reagan. To my dad,
a newly minted American, Reagan was proof that anyone could
make it in America-- an actor becoming president. I mean,
(06:03):
that's the optimism of an immigrant; someone who genuinely believed
his son's potential was limitless in this new land. But
to my mom, who was not a fan of his policies,
Reagan's supposed interest in astrology made her like him more,
because it made him more like us. And Reagan's interest
in astrology was just this thing I always knew about
(06:25):
growing up. But as I grew older, I began to
question it. Like it kind of seemed too outlandish to
be true. So I asked my pal Mary if she
could find anything more concrete about this whole story.
Actually, before we dive into the controversy, I just wanted
to ask you. I feel really lucky to have you
(06:47):
in this project, but I'm curious why you did it
because you don't believe in astrology.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (06:52):
Um, well, you're very persuasive.
Mangesh Hattikudur (06:54):
I guess We're sitting in a studio in Midtown and
I'm laughing because it's true. Mary was not convinced when
I pitched this to her.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (07:05):
But I can, I can learn about things without believing
in them. I figured it's an opportunity to go down
a path I would not ordinarily go down.
Mangesh Hattikudur (07:13):
Do you know what your sign is?
Mary Phillips-Sandy (07:14):
I found out, I'm a Cancer. I thought I was
a Gemini. Turns out I'm a Cancer.
Mangesh Hattikudur (07:18):
So I roped you into this thing with astrology, and
then I said, hey, I really want to look into
Ronald Reagan.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (07:26):
You did, and I like Ronald Reagan about as much
as I like astrology. I grew up being terrified of
Ronald Reagan. I remember being like three years old and
seeing him on the TV and being genuinely frightened. Um.
My parents were dragging me to defense spending protests during
the eighties, so I had a very different experience. Um,
(07:46):
so it didn't seem to really add up my understanding
of Ronald Reagan and my understanding of astrology. That didn't
really make any sense. And so that was why I
figured it would be really interesting to find out what
actually happened.
Mangesh Hattikudur (07:58):
So like, what was the sort of controversy that that
made everyone suddenly start talking about it?
Mary Phillips-Sandy (08:04):
So this is really juicy. There's this guy, Don Regan
who had been chief of staff for Ronald Reagan. And
he had been the chairman of Meryll Lynch for a
long time. He was Treasury Secretary. He was like the
architect of Reaganomics. And then he became chief of staff
and he left the White House. He got kicked out
and he basically was thrown out in disgrace from his job.
(08:25):
And so he turned around and wrote a tell-all book
called For the Record. And apparently he got a million
dollar advance, which was huge money at the time.
Yeah, but he made this huge revelation that while he
was in the White House, Nancy Reagan was asking him
to change the president's schedule based on astrological advice from
(08:48):
a friend. Quote quote. He even said he had to keep a color-coded calendar of like good days, auspicious days, bad days, iffy days for the president's travel, his public appearances, all of this. And the press went crazy when they found this out.
Reporter (09:04):
Reagan's and their stars astrologically speaking, Did Donald Regan get
his ex bosses Capricorn- that is goat? Or is it
all a load of Taurus?
With President Richard Nixon, towards the end, the claim was
"I am not a crook." With Ronald Reagan, last week it
was more like, "I am not a nut."
Is that like a gift from heaven for a cartoon
as a story like that?
Doug Marlette (09:22):
Yeah, [laughs] it is. I consider that-- it's just it's
too good, too good to be true.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (09:29):
There's a Reagan library. They have archives, and I thought, well,
maybe there's something in there about astrology. Turns out they
actually have a finding aid labeled astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur (09:41):
Oh really?
Mary Phillips-Sandy (09:42):
Yeah, because they have files that are, you know, touch
on the scandal. I asked them if I could see them,
and they said that they would have to take some
time to take all the staples out, but then they
could scan them and send them to me. And a
lot of it was just newspaper clippings, you know, cartoons
from when it came out.
Mangesh Hattikudur (09:59):
Really?
Mary Phillips-Sandy (09:59):
Yeah, and there were transcripts of of press conferences where
the White House spokespeople were just getting slammed. All the
reporters wanted to talk about was astrology. What is the deal?
What you know? Are they just deciding everything based on this?
You know? What can you tell us? And they didn't
want to answer. But what I thought was really fascinating
was they had saved all of this correspondence from the
(10:21):
religious right. Basically evangelical Christians who had helped elect Ronald Reagan.
Mangesh Hattikudur (10:26):
Mmhhh.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (10:27):
Evangelical Christians do not like astrology. This is at the
height of the controversy. From Don Regan's book, this radio
preacher named George Otis, who is a friend of the Reagans,
wrote directly to the White House. "Dear Mr President, You've
been a great chief of State. You will recall how
in October 1970, God spoke directly to you through myself
(10:47):
there in your Sacramento home. When God's powerful word came
you were to become president of the United States. This
may have been the most remarkable visitation from the Lord
of any president in history. You were handpicked for leadership
in one of our nation's most pivotal hours."
No pressure, right? And so he was saying, "I beg
you to renounce the practice of astrology in the White House.
(11:09):
To make a statement now would be an act of
courage and pleasing to God. But if you fail to
do so, you legitimize astrology and the occult and set
our nation on a collision course with God."
Mangesh Hattikudur (11:24):
I don't know why, but I always sort of bristle
when I hear things like this. There is such hypocrisy
in what sort of magical thinking we're okay with as
a country. Like if a televangelist goes into tongues and
prophesies that Reagan has to be the next president because
God told him, that is totally okay. Western miracles don't
(11:45):
bother the base, But if an astrologer makes a prediction,
that's blasphemy. It just feels silly that a president should
be lauded for believing in one of those ideas but
threatened for believing in the other.
It reminds me of this feeling I had as a kid,
totally the opposite of my dad's optimism about who was
(12:08):
allowed to be president. The fact that I was born
brown and Hindu, that I had a name that was unpronounceable.
It seemingly crippled my chances from the start. I mean,
the Indian kids who were ten years older than me
and wanted to be politicians, the Bobby Jindal's and Nikki Haley's,
they always seemed to convert to Christianity and change their
(12:30):
names along the way.
Bobby Jindal (12:31):
You know, I wish I could tell you I had
the sun to epiphany. There was no moment on that
road to Damascus where it was that easy for me.
Nikki Haley (12:37):
Christianity spoke to me at a time where I needed
a connection, and so no political pressure should never change
a person. I am my parents daughter.
Mangesh Hattikudur (12:48):
Maybe that's why I'm so interested in Ronald Reagan. Because
even though he's seen as this ultimate American; this American
mascot
Ronald Reagan (12:58):
For those who have abandoned hope, we'll restore hope, and
we'll welcome them into a great national crusade to make
America great again.
Mangesh Hattikudur (13:07):
By dabbling in astrology, he got away with something that
doesn't feel American at all.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (13:16):
So, right after Don Reagan's book came out and broke
this story of astrology in the White House, Ronald Reagan
and George Bush, who was then Vice President, were walking
to a press conference in the in the Rose Garden.
Reporter (13:29):
Mr President, would you continue to allow astrology to play
a part in the makeup of your daily schedule, sir?
crowd (13:39):
[boos] Knock it off, man!
Ronald Reagan (13:39):
You asked for it. I can’t, because I never did.
Mangesh Hattikudur (13:39):
This is not the man I watched in first grade
reminding us that science can be heartbreak, but it is
always progress. I mean, this man is struggling. Like, listen
to this from May seventeenth.
Ronald Reagan (13:58):
This was all once again smoke and mirrors, and we
made no decisions on it, and we're not binding our
lives to this. And I don't mean to offend anyone
who does believe in it.
So right there, he takes a moment to make sure
he's not offending anyone who believes in astrology. And then
(14:20):
a reporter pounces.
Reporter (14:25):
Do you believe in it?
Ronald Reagan (14:25):
What?
Reporter (14:25):
Do YOU believe in it.
Ronald Reagan (14:25):
I don’t guide my life by it, but I won’t answer the question the other way, because I don’t know enough about it to say is there something to it or not.
Mangesh Hattikudur (14:25):
Belief is hard to talk about. It's confusing. Sometimes belief
is just the collective sway of these tiny tendrils of influence.
Like it's not some hard and fast tenets. I mean,
(14:49):
you hear it in Reagan's words, right, like talking about
belief is so hard that one of the most gifted politicians.
Stumbles through his answer, and he twists his words into
some think so convoluted it barely has meaning anymore. Except
Reagan is not being honest here because astrology had definitely
played a role in his daily and his political life.
(15:13):
And you don't have to take our word for it,
you can take his straight from his 1965 autobiography. So let's turn back the clocks and investigate, right after this break.
CHAPTER TWO
(15:55):
The strange thing is, for decades, Ron and Nancy's interest
in astrology was an open secret. Or at least it
had been.
Astrology was this California thing. And it was also a showbiz thing. And the Reagans and their friends, they enjoyed rubbing shoulders with people like LA Times astrologer Carroll Righter. Because, like People Magazine put it, Righter was a celebrity in his own right. Quote, “Righter was the confidant of the rich and famous, who saw him less as a backdoor soothsayer than as social equal. His zodiac parties in the fifties were highlights of every season. Fish for swimming in his pool for the Pisces party, and he rented a live lion for a Leo party.”
(16:32):
As Ronald wrote in his 1965 autobiography, Where's The Rest Of Me?, “Every morning, Nancy and I turn to see what he has to say about people of our respective birth signs.” Horoscopes and astrology, it was no big deal, and a part of their daily morning routine. They like to check in and contemplate how the stars might affect their day, and they embraced the culture. Around that same time, Nancy started paying Righter for his astrological advice.
(17:01):
Then came the election.
In late nineteen sixty six, after Ronald Reagan won the
governor's race, he scheduled his oath to take place, specifically
at twelve sixteen am on January 2nd, 1967. The timing of this
did not make any sense unless you were looking at
(17:22):
the stars. It turns out that exact time corresponded to
Jupiter rising, and if you're a believer, starting your term
at that moment would make it blessed, prosperous.
When the outgoing governor, Edmund Brown got wind of the story,
he leaked it to the press and Reagan's team immediately
(17:43):
went into spin mode. Right so, Reagan had a spokesperson
tell reporters that he didn't believe in astrology. The staffer
even took it further. He said Reagan was so averse
to astrology that he had only ever seen a horoscope
by accident, which obviously wasn't true. But the craziest part
of all this, like the reason we're talking about this?
(18:04):
It means that Don Regan's book wasn't even the president's
first astrology-related scandal.
But let's talk about Nancy.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (18:13):
When I started looking into this, the first place I
looked was Nancy Reagan's memoir because I wanted to hear
her side of the story. It's called My Turn, and
it was very pointedly a rebuke to Don Regan's book
the year prior. And she basically disputed everything he said
and downplayed the role that her astrologer friend played in
(18:34):
the President's life, in her life, in everything.
And she said it was only minor schedule changes and
it only came about because she was so worried for
her husband's safety after the assassination attempt in 1981. And
that she was driven to do this out of a
sense of duty and guilt. If you really want to
trace the influence of astrology on the White House, this
(18:54):
is the moment that Nancy Reagan started casting about for help.
And it was her friend MERV Griffin--
Chuck Woolery (19:00):
Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Wheel of Fortune. I’d like to introduce Susan Stafford, our hostess..
Mangesh Hattikudur (19:06):
Yes game show legend MERV Griffin who introduced her to
Joan Quigley.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (19:12):
Joan Quigley was this Vassar graduate. She was very smart.
She came from a very wealthy Nob Hill, San Francisco family. Initially,
Joan really tried to downplay her role in the Reagan's
lives because Nancy had asked her to do that. As
all of this controversy was boiling over, Joan really stuck
to the party line that
(19:32):
that much influence. But when Nancy's book came out, I
think at that point Joan was like, "screw you, Nancy."
You know? "It's me time, now!"
She became briefly the most famous astrologer in the world, right?
She was going to take advantage of it. And so
she started telling the story that in fact she had
controlled everything.
Mangesh Hattikudur (19:51):
It's true Nancy's astrologer would take credit for helping to
appoint some justices, keeping the president safe, and even thawing
the Cold War. But the question emerged
was she and how much did she have the president's
ear on foreign policy? But before we talk about Nancy's friend...
(20:14):
CHAPTER THREE
If Joe Biden was consulting an astrologer on major American issues,
how would you feel? Would you vote for an astrology believer?
We interrupted a New York City dinner party to ask
(20:34):
that very same question.
Woman 1 (20:38):
It would feel more like, um, the president was just rolling the dice, if that was how he was making decisions.
Woman 2 (20:45):
Yes, I would vote for a presidential candidate that used astrology to guide their decision making, and I would think that they were very wise.
Man 1 (20:54):
Absolutely not. For as much as I like the astrology and the meaning behind that, I think that there is, uh, absolutely no connection between being a great president and reading the, the stars.
Man 2 (21:07):
It's just not politically correct.
Mangesh Hattikudur (21:12):
But the truth is, Reagan's interest in astrology does not
make him an outlier. Here's a list of modern politicians
who read their horoscope and checked it twice.
Group of kids shouting (21:27):
One! Richard Nixon
Mangesh Hattikudur (21:30):
Nixon was a quirky guy. Not only did he ban
soup in the White House and eat cottage cheese with ketchup,
but he also valued the advice of astrologer Jeanne Dixon, who,
to be fair, also gave advice to Franklin Roosevelt, JFK
and the Reagans. But Nixon called her his soothsayer, and
not only did Jeanne visit him in the White House,
(21:50):
but she sent the president copious letters on national security predictions.
In fact, in nineteen seventy two, when she warned a
threat on American soil after the Munich Olympics, Nixon used
her intel to alert Kissinger and to assemble a counter
terrorism unit.
Group of kids shouting (22:08):
Two! Boris Yeltsin.
Mangesh Hattikudur (22:11):
The only thing I remember about Boris Yeltsin is that
one time when he was visiting Washington, he almost caused
this international incident because he left the White House grounds
drunk in just his underwear, desperate to find some late
night pizza. This is true, which I can respect. But
(22:31):
Yelson was also an astrology head. During his presidency, a
naval captain revealed to The Economist that Russia had a
secret institute that employed "military astrologers."
Group of kids shouting (22:43):
Three! Francois Mitterand
Mangesh Hattikudur (22:48):
When the French president's wife made accusations that Mitterand was only interested in his astrologer because he was sleeping with her, the astrologer, a former model and actress, released tapes of their conversations to show that they had a purely professional relationship. And on these tapes were incredible things, like Mitterand trying to understand the power struggles in Russia. Through astrology, he was using the stars to vet cabinet members, and most curiously, he was taking astrological advice on how to handle France's role and entry into the Gulf War.
(23:30):
Anyway, all that's to say that a handful of astrologers have had way more sway on world events than any of us would like to think.
CHAPTER FOUR
(23:57):
If we're to believe Joan Quigley, one of the many things she helped make happen was Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy's appointment. She also claims to have planned the president's debate times and delayed the timing of Reagan's cancer surgery, but perhaps most importantly, Quigley takes credit for changing the president's opinion about Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. As reported in the New York Times, Quigley battled to the mat for three hours to convince Nancy Reagan that her husband could trust Gorbachev. As Quigley said, “the placement of his ruler, Mercury, symbolizes to me that despite his Russian training and origins, Gorbachev has the instincts of the humanitarian.” Joan also convinced the president to work towards disarmament, and to extend his trip in Europe to hammer out an agreement.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (24:45):
The one thing everybody agrees on is that Joan Quigley
actually did help decide when the president traveled, because that
was Nancy's big fear after the assassination attempt. And so
I think everybody is, is pretty much in agreement that yes, Joan
Quigly helped identify days where maybe it wouldn't be a
good idea to go anywhere. That, you know, for safety's sake,
you might not want to fly on that day. Maybe
(25:08):
fly the next day, or fly a couple hours later,
and that will be safer for you. And nobody really
had a problem with that. Then it kind of shades
into this thing of like, well, if he's not making
a public appearance for a week, that's a big deal, right?
Because that affects what he's able to do as president.
And um certainly Joan coming out and saying that she
(25:29):
literally told him that based on his chart and Gorbachev's chart,
that they should sit down and talk. I mean that's
really explosive.
Mangesh Hattikudur (25:37):
Well, especially at the the time, right? Like we are
at the height of the Cold War; there's like nuclear
proliferation on both sides in a massive way, and people
are worried that someone will hit a button and cause
the end of the earth. Like that's-- the idea of
talking with your enemy at that time was pretty significant.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (25:56):
People were very upset at the idea that this random
astrologer was influencing such big decisions when there was so
much at stake.
Mangesh Hattikudur (26:05):
Do you think Reagan was actually using this advice? Was
this just going to his wife? What was the deal here?
Mary Phillips-Sandy (26:10):
So that was sort of the other question. Was this
Nancy's fault? Because everything back then was Nancy's fault. She
had this image of being this evil puppeteer of her
helpless husband who loved her so much he would just
do whatever she wanted
Mangesh Hattikudur (26:25):
[static sound] Just a quick aside
ambitious for her husband; incredibly ambitious. Jimmy Stewart once said
that had Ronald been married to Nancy earlier, he would
have won an Academy award. And Reagan's aides admit this too.
They say that without Nancy there would have been no
Governor Reagan, no President Reagan. She absolutely took a lot
(26:47):
of heat for allegedly being the power behind the throne.
And so when this came out? That it was Nancy's
friend making these calls? That was more evidence that she
was actually controlling him.
(27:13):
CHAPTER FIVE
Earlier in the show, we skimmed over the fact that
there was an assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan. As he
was leaving a speech and walking to his limo, John
Hinckley Jr, a delusional individual who was trying to impress
Jodie Foster, pulled out a Rome RG 1422 caliber, and he shot it
(27:36):
six times in less than two seconds.
audio clip (27:47):
[News tape of the assassination attempt, shouting, gunfire]
Mangesh Hattikudur (27:47):
The first five shots missed their mark. One hit Reagan's press secretary Jim Brady in the head. Another hit an agent in the stomach as he put his body on the line. But as the Secret Service pushed the president into the limo, the final bullet bounced off the car, ricocheting into the president's lung and lodging just 25 millimeters from his heart. Few people would know just how close he'd come to death
White House spokesperson (28:24):
This is to confirm the statements made at George Washington Hospital that the president was shot once in the left side this afternoon as he left the hotel. Mrs. Reagan is currently with the president at the hospital.
Mangesh Hattikudur (28:25):
It happened early in his presidency on March, and the
truth is, in most discussions of Reagan's legacy, it's glossed over.
In his obituary in the New York Times, the shooting
isn't even mentioned until the 25th paragraph. So in the
(28:49):
scope of things, it just isn't thought about that much.
But for Nancy Reagan, it was something entirely different. Right,
This was something she could ever ever forget. As I
(29:09):
was trying to sort through all of this and put
Nancy in context, Mary sent me one more clip. Ye,
Nancy's appearance on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.
Johnny Carson (29:25):
Can I ask you about the astrology? You get tired
of answering that question?
Nancy Reagan (29:28):
No.
Johnny Carson (29:28):
That's one of the things, you know that, uh, when it hit the papers, wow.
Nancy Reagan (29:32):
I know.
Mangesh Hattikudur (29:33):
If you're looking at the video, Nancy so clearly doesn't
want to talk about this, but she will. I know
she's a trained actor. I know she's good at playing
the role of first lady. But still hearing her say
why she put faith in astrology, why she needed to
put faith in it, Well, it breaks your heart where
(29:54):
it breaks mine.
Nancy Reagan (29:55):
You can't, you can't really describe what you go through. Uh,
when your husband is shot and almost dies. And most
people didn't know that. There were... there were two times
that they came to me and said they couldn't find
his pulse. Um, he was very close to going in
the shock. And if he had, then, that would have been it.
(30:19):
And not everybody has their way of of handling that
particular kind of trauma, and that particular kind of trauma is... it's,
is very special. And I talked to my minister, I
talked to friends. And then I had a friend called
me and say, gee, they she he had talked to
(30:40):
this girl and woman and, uh, she could have told me
that Ronnie shouldn't have done a thing on that day.
Johnny Carson (30:45):
Right.
Nancy Reagan (30:46):
And I thought, my Lord, I could have prevented if
you know, and um, so I called her. I didn't
think I was doing anything so wrong, and I still
don't think I did anything so wrong. It helped me
through a very... really, a very rough time, very tough time.
Mangesh Hattikudur (31:05):
There's so many things about the ways the Reagans tell
their story-- the way they talk about astrology-- that doesn't
really add up. From the governor's oath to the idea
that Ronald had never seen his horoscope except by accident,
to dozens of other inconsistencies. Quigley had met the Reagan's
before she actually worked on Ronald Reagan's governor's campaign. But
(31:27):
none of that stops this part from being true. Nancy
was desperately trying to keep her husband safe. That same year,
there would be an assassination attempt on Pope John Paul
II's life, Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat would be killed, and
world leaders really were under threat.
Nancy's guilt? It kicked in because of all this. Like
(31:49):
why wouldn't she try everything in her power to do that?
Nancy Reagan (31:52):
But there's changes that were made were things like, uh, would
be better to leave at two o'clock or two-thirty? I mean,
you know, there wasn't any great and there were no
political decisions ever made on astrology. I didn't hurt anybody
except I embarrassed Ronnie. I was sorry for that.
Mangesh Hattikudur (32:12):
It's not that I'm enamored with Nancy Reagan all of
a sudden, but I don't laugh at her anymore. Because
faced with the option to do nothing, or do something--
Nancy picked up the phones and worked them. She found
(32:35):
the best astrologer she could. She color-coated her husband's calendar.
She feuded with Reagan's chief of staff over the details
of his schedule, and she fought fiercely to keep her
husband out of harm's way. And seeing the love she
poured into protecting him, it makes me feel guilty because
I didn't do everything I could for my dad. I
(32:58):
really didn't. Sure, I raced to see him, I tussled
his hair, I kissed his head. I dressed and shaved him.
I walked him to him from the bathroom when he
was too weak to lift himself up from his chair.
I helped his frail body in and out of bed,
and stuffed a pillow under his knees. I pulled his
socks off his shiny, hairless legs to keep him warm
(33:20):
when he napped. And I fetched his pulp mystery books
and refilled his bowl of shelled pistachoes. I sat in
the hospital trying to decipher his mumbles and his moans,
and I put chips of ice into his mouth just
to watch him crunch at it and then smile. And
when he could barely respond anymore and the treatments weren't working,
(33:42):
I signed his life away. I ordered the morphine and
brought him home in an ambulance so he could breathe
his last breaths at home. I tried, I really did.
I didn't do enough. I didn't pray, not the way
my mom and sister did. I didn't hunt for an
Ayurvedic cure or research alternative medicines. I didn't place a
(34:07):
bet on the magical because my belief is limited to
what I understand. And I live with that guilt, not
that there's any logic to it. Because even if I
didn't believe, my dad did. And couldn't I have put
aside my pride to give him everything because everything is
(34:30):
what he gave me.
(34:58):
Next week on Skyline Drive, no more being sad! Next week
is 100% fun. We are talking to Moneyball statisticians who
use astrology, CNN's house astrologer. They used to have a
house astrologer, astrology and law school, and BTS. That's right!
We're going to use astrology to figure out Korean Supergroup
(35:18):
BTS's next steps. Maybe? I don't know. I can't see
into the future, but I can promise it will be fun.
(35:42):
Thank you so much for listening. This show was written
by Taffy Brodesser-Akner Executive crews Brodesser-Akner. Based on a book
by Taffy Brodesser... I'm so sorry. Thoese are credits for
Fleischman's in Trouble. I'm reading the wrong credits. That's a
fantastic show. Go stream it after this.
This show
(36:03):
iHeart Podcast. It’s hosted and written by me, Mangesh Hattikudur. But you would not have made it to the third episode if all of these lovely people
(38:36):
to my Amma and my Dad, Lalita and Umesh Hattikudur,
who I have to thank my lucky stars for. Thank
you so much for listening.
Warning. The following episode contains discussion of Ronald Reagan, pro wrestlers,
Ronald Reagan talking to pro wrestlers Johnny Carson, and a
disastrous late night pizza party. Also, astrology. Sensitive listeners, keep
your TUMS handy.
Mangesh Hattikudur (00:36):
Okay, we're gonna start this out with another slide show,
and this time it's about Hulk Hogan.
(00:57):
This is Hulk Hogan's Rock ‘n’ Wrestling. As a kid, I knew everyone was supposed to like Hulk Hogan. And sometimes I even pretended to like Hulk Hogan, even though I was not a fan. But I often watched his cartoons on Saturday mornings because they were on. This is the only Rock ‘n’ Wrestling episode I remember.
Cartoon voice (00:57):
The President wants to speak with you.
Cartoon Hulk Hogan (01:23):
Yes, Sir.
Cartoon President (01:23):
Your country is depending on you, Hulkster, don't let us down.
Mangesh Hattikudur (01:28):
In it, this cartoon Ronald Reagan asked Hulk Hogan to
go to space to rescue astronauts before a shuttle explodes.
The cartoon is seared in my brain because it aired
not long after the Challenger disaster.
Cartoon voice (01:44):
Well, what was it like being on the first wrestler
in space?
I tell you Mean Gene it was more awesome than
the combat zone.
Mangesh Hattikudur (01:52):
I also remember thinking, why do they think Hulk Hogan
can pry open a cargo bay door? Because I mean,
I know he's strong. But even in cartoon form, this
seemed dumb. And I was seven at the time.
But maybe the makers of Rock and Wrestling thought they
were doing something to help calm kids nerves.
Ronald Reagan (02:16):
And I want to say something to the school children
of America. I know it's hard to understand, but sometimes
painful things like this happen.
Mangesh Hattikudur (02:27):
That's the actual Ronald Reagan. The day after the Challenger exploded,
our first grade teacher wheeled a TV into our classroom
so the President could talk to us directly.
Ronald Reagan (02:39):
It's all part of the process of exploration and discovery.
It's all part of taking a chance and expanding man's horizons.
The future doesn't belong to the faint hearted. It belongs
to the brave.
Mangesh Hattikudur (02:57):
The future belongs to the brave. Those words embody America right?
And to preserve hope in the face of something so devastating,
so visible... Anyway, what does any of this have to
do with us? Well, the Challenger wasn't the only time
(03:20):
Reagan was thinking about the intersection of space and the future.
That's right, I'm talking about astrology. And it turns out,
in the 1980s there was a full on astrology scandal
in the Reagan White House.
Ronald Reagan (03:37):
I don't mean to offend anyone who does believe in it.
Reporter (03:40):
Do you believe in it?
Ronald Reagan (03:40):
What?
Reporter (03:40):
Do YOU believe in it.
Mangesh Hattikudur (03:40):
From Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts, I'm Mangesh Hattikudur. Welcome to
Skyline Drive
CHAPTER ONE
Ronald Reagan (04:42):
Let's start with the part that is the most controversial.
A few months ago, I told the American people I
did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my
best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts
and the evidence tell me it is not.
Mangesh Hattikudur (04:59):
The weird thing about Ronald Reagan is that he was unknowable. Like,
frustratingly unknowable. When the famed biographer Edmund Morris got three
million dollars to do an official biography, he spent fourteen
years interviewing and shadowing Reagan. But when he turned in
his book, he switched it from a biography to fiction.
(05:20):
And when he was asked why he did that with
his manuscript on 60 Minutes, Morris said, "He was truly
one of the strangest men who ever lived. Nobody around
him understood him. Every person I interviewed, almost without exception,
eventually would say, you know, I could never really figure
him out."
(05:41):
Think about that. Fourteen years of access and Morris couldn't
figure out how to accurately write about the man and
what he stood for. And maybe that's why my mom
and dad had such different opinions of Reagan. To my dad,
a newly minted American, Reagan was proof that anyone could
make it in America-- an actor becoming president. I mean,
(06:03):
that's the optimism of an immigrant; someone who genuinely believed
his son's potential was limitless in this new land. But
to my mom, who was not a fan of his policies,
Reagan's supposed interest in astrology made her like him more,
because it made him more like us. And Reagan's interest
in astrology was just this thing I always knew about
(06:25):
growing up. But as I grew older, I began to
question it. Like it kind of seemed too outlandish to
be true. So I asked my pal Mary if she
could find anything more concrete about this whole story.
Actually, before we dive into the controversy, I just wanted
to ask you. I feel really lucky to have you
(06:47):
in this project, but I'm curious why you did it
because you don't believe in astrology.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (06:52):
Um, well, you're very persuasive.
Mangesh Hattikudur (06:54):
I guess We're sitting in a studio in Midtown and
I'm laughing because it's true. Mary was not convinced when
I pitched this to her.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (07:05):
But I can, I can learn about things without believing
in them. I figured it's an opportunity to go down
a path I would not ordinarily go down.
Mangesh Hattikudur (07:13):
Do you know what your sign is?
Mary Phillips-Sandy (07:14):
I found out, I'm a Cancer. I thought I was
a Gemini. Turns out I'm a Cancer.
Mangesh Hattikudur (07:18):
So I roped you into this thing with astrology, and
then I said, hey, I really want to look into
Ronald Reagan.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (07:26):
You did, and I like Ronald Reagan about as much
as I like astrology. I grew up being terrified of
Ronald Reagan. I remember being like three years old and
seeing him on the TV and being genuinely frightened. Um.
My parents were dragging me to defense spending protests during
the eighties, so I had a very different experience. Um,
(07:46):
so it didn't seem to really add up my understanding
of Ronald Reagan and my understanding of astrology. That didn't
really make any sense. And so that was why I
figured it would be really interesting to find out what
actually happened.
Mangesh Hattikudur (07:58):
So like, what was the sort of controversy that that
made everyone suddenly start talking about it?
Mary Phillips-Sandy (08:04):
So this is really juicy. There's this guy, Don Regan
who had been chief of staff for Ronald Reagan. And
he had been the chairman of Meryll Lynch for a
long time. He was Treasury Secretary. He was like the
architect of Reaganomics. And then he became chief of staff
and he left the White House. He got kicked out
and he basically was thrown out in disgrace from his job.
(08:25):
And so he turned around and wrote a tell-all book
called For the Record. And apparently he got a million
dollar advance, which was huge money at the time.
Yeah, but he made this huge revelation that while he
was in the White House, Nancy Reagan was asking him
to change the president's schedule based on astrological advice from
(08:48):
a friend. Quote quote. He even said he had to keep a color-coded calendar of like good days, auspicious days, bad days, iffy days for the president's travel, his public appearances, all of this. And the press went crazy when they found this out.
Reporter (09:04):
Reagan's and their stars astrologically speaking, Did Donald Regan get
his ex bosses Capricorn- that is goat? Or is it
all a load of Taurus?
With President Richard Nixon, towards the end, the claim was
"I am not a crook." With Ronald Reagan, last week it
was more like, "I am not a nut."
Is that like a gift from heaven for a cartoon
as a story like that?
Doug Marlette (09:22):
Yeah, [laughs] it is. I consider that-- it's just it's
too good, too good to be true.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (09:29):
There's a Reagan library. They have archives, and I thought, well,
maybe there's something in there about astrology. Turns out they
actually have a finding aid labeled astrology.
Mangesh Hattikudur (09:41):
Oh really?
Mary Phillips-Sandy (09:42):
Yeah, because they have files that are, you know, touch
on the scandal. I asked them if I could see them,
and they said that they would have to take some
time to take all the staples out, but then they
could scan them and send them to me. And a
lot of it was just newspaper clippings, you know, cartoons
from when it came out.
Mangesh Hattikudur (09:59):
Really?
Mary Phillips-Sandy (09:59):
Yeah, and there were transcripts of of press conferences where
the White House spokespeople were just getting slammed. All the
reporters wanted to talk about was astrology. What is the deal?
What you know? Are they just deciding everything based on this?
You know? What can you tell us? And they didn't
want to answer. But what I thought was really fascinating
was they had saved all of this correspondence from the
(10:21):
religious right. Basically evangelical Christians who had helped elect Ronald Reagan.
Mangesh Hattikudur (10:26):
Mmhhh.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (10:27):
Evangelical Christians do not like astrology. This is at the
height of the controversy. From Don Regan's book, this radio
preacher named George Otis, who is a friend of the Reagans,
wrote directly to the White House. "Dear Mr President, You've
been a great chief of State. You will recall how
in October 1970, God spoke directly to you through myself
(10:47):
there in your Sacramento home. When God's powerful word came
you were to become president of the United States. This
may have been the most remarkable visitation from the Lord
of any president in history. You were handpicked for leadership
in one of our nation's most pivotal hours."
No pressure, right? And so he was saying, "I beg
you to renounce the practice of astrology in the White House.
(11:09):
To make a statement now would be an act of
courage and pleasing to God. But if you fail to
do so, you legitimize astrology and the occult and set
our nation on a collision course with God."
Mangesh Hattikudur (11:24):
I don't know why, but I always sort of bristle
when I hear things like this. There is such hypocrisy
in what sort of magical thinking we're okay with as
a country. Like if a televangelist goes into tongues and
prophesies that Reagan has to be the next president because
God told him, that is totally okay. Western miracles don't
(11:45):
bother the base, But if an astrologer makes a prediction,
that's blasphemy. It just feels silly that a president should
be lauded for believing in one of those ideas but
threatened for believing in the other.
It reminds me of this feeling I had as a kid,
totally the opposite of my dad's optimism about who was
(12:08):
allowed to be president. The fact that I was born
brown and Hindu, that I had a name that was unpronounceable.
It seemingly crippled my chances from the start. I mean,
the Indian kids who were ten years older than me
and wanted to be politicians, the Bobby Jindal's and Nikki Haley's,
they always seemed to convert to Christianity and change their
(12:30):
names along the way.
Bobby Jindal (12:31):
You know, I wish I could tell you I had
the sun to epiphany. There was no moment on that
road to Damascus where it was that easy for me.
Nikki Haley (12:37):
Christianity spoke to me at a time where I needed
a connection, and so no political pressure should never change
a person. I am my parents daughter.
Mangesh Hattikudur (12:48):
Maybe that's why I'm so interested in Ronald Reagan. Because
even though he's seen as this ultimate American; this American
mascot
Ronald Reagan (12:58):
For those who have abandoned hope, we'll restore hope, and
we'll welcome them into a great national crusade to make
America great again.
Mangesh Hattikudur (13:07):
By dabbling in astrology, he got away with something that
doesn't feel American at all.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (13:16):
So, right after Don Reagan's book came out and broke
this story of astrology in the White House, Ronald Reagan
and George Bush, who was then Vice President, were walking
to a press conference in the in the Rose Garden.
Reporter (13:29):
Mr President, would you continue to allow astrology to play
a part in the makeup of your daily schedule, sir?
crowd (13:39):
[boos] Knock it off, man!
Ronald Reagan (13:39):
You asked for it. I can’t, because I never did.
Mangesh Hattikudur (13:39):
This is not the man I watched in first grade
reminding us that science can be heartbreak, but it is
always progress. I mean, this man is struggling. Like, listen
to this from May seventeenth.
Ronald Reagan (13:58):
This was all once again smoke and mirrors, and we
made no decisions on it, and we're not binding our
lives to this. And I don't mean to offend anyone
who does believe in it.
So right there, he takes a moment to make sure
he's not offending anyone who believes in astrology. And then
(14:20):
a reporter pounces.
Reporter (14:25):
Do you believe in it?
Ronald Reagan (14:25):
What?
Reporter (14:25):
Do YOU believe in it.
Ronald Reagan (14:25):
I don’t guide my life by it, but I won’t answer the question the other way, because I don’t know enough about it to say is there something to it or not.
Mangesh Hattikudur (14:25):
Belief is hard to talk about. It's confusing. Sometimes belief
is just the collective sway of these tiny tendrils of influence.
Like it's not some hard and fast tenets. I mean,
(14:49):
you hear it in Reagan's words, right, like talking about
belief is so hard that one of the most gifted politicians.
Stumbles through his answer, and he twists his words into
some think so convoluted it barely has meaning anymore. Except
Reagan is not being honest here because astrology had definitely
played a role in his daily and his political life.
(15:13):
And you don't have to take our word for it,
you can take his straight from his 1965 autobiography. So let's turn back the clocks and investigate, right after this break.
CHAPTER TWO
(15:55):
The strange thing is, for decades, Ron and Nancy's interest
in astrology was an open secret. Or at least it
had been.
Astrology was this California thing. And it was also a showbiz thing. And the Reagans and their friends, they enjoyed rubbing shoulders with people like LA Times astrologer Carroll Righter. Because, like People Magazine put it, Righter was a celebrity in his own right. Quote, “Righter was the confidant of the rich and famous, who saw him less as a backdoor soothsayer than as social equal. His zodiac parties in the fifties were highlights of every season. Fish for swimming in his pool for the Pisces party, and he rented a live lion for a Leo party.”
(16:32):
As Ronald wrote in his 1965 autobiography, Where's The Rest Of Me?, “Every morning, Nancy and I turn to see what he has to say about people of our respective birth signs.” Horoscopes and astrology, it was no big deal, and a part of their daily morning routine. They like to check in and contemplate how the stars might affect their day, and they embraced the culture. Around that same time, Nancy started paying Righter for his astrological advice.
(17:01):
Then came the election.
In late nineteen sixty six, after Ronald Reagan won the
governor's race, he scheduled his oath to take place, specifically
at twelve sixteen am on January 2nd, 1967. The timing of this
did not make any sense unless you were looking at
(17:22):
the stars. It turns out that exact time corresponded to
Jupiter rising, and if you're a believer, starting your term
at that moment would make it blessed, prosperous.
When the outgoing governor, Edmund Brown got wind of the story,
he leaked it to the press and Reagan's team immediately
(17:43):
went into spin mode. Right so, Reagan had a spokesperson
tell reporters that he didn't believe in astrology. The staffer
even took it further. He said Reagan was so averse
to astrology that he had only ever seen a horoscope
by accident, which obviously wasn't true. But the craziest part
of all this, like the reason we're talking about this?
(18:04):
It means that Don Regan's book wasn't even the president's
first astrology-related scandal.
But let's talk about Nancy.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (18:13):
When I started looking into this, the first place I
looked was Nancy Reagan's memoir because I wanted to hear
her side of the story. It's called My Turn, and
it was very pointedly a rebuke to Don Regan's book
the year prior. And she basically disputed everything he said
and downplayed the role that her astrologer friend played in
(18:34):
the President's life, in her life, in everything.
And she said it was only minor schedule changes and
it only came about because she was so worried for
her husband's safety after the assassination attempt in 1981. And
that she was driven to do this out of a
sense of duty and guilt. If you really want to
trace the influence of astrology on the White House, this
(18:54):
is the moment that Nancy Reagan started casting about for help.
And it was her friend MERV Griffin--
Chuck Woolery (19:00):
Good morning, everybody, and welcome to Wheel of Fortune. I’d like to introduce Susan Stafford, our hostess..
Mangesh Hattikudur (19:06):
Yes game show legend MERV Griffin who introduced her to
Joan Quigley.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (19:12):
Joan Quigley was this Vassar graduate. She was very smart.
She came from a very wealthy Nob Hill, San Francisco family. Initially,
Joan really tried to downplay her role in the Reagan's
lives because Nancy had asked her to do that. As
all of this controversy was boiling over, Joan really stuck
to the party line that
(19:32):
that much influence. But when Nancy's book came out, I
think at that point Joan was like, "screw you, Nancy."
You know? "It's me time, now!"
She became briefly the most famous astrologer in the world, right?
She was going to take advantage of it. And so
she started telling the story that in fact she had
controlled everything.
Mangesh Hattikudur (19:51):
It's true Nancy's astrologer would take credit for helping to
appoint some justices, keeping the president safe, and even thawing
the Cold War. But the question emerged
was she and how much did she have the president's
ear on foreign policy? But before we talk about Nancy's friend...
(20:14):
CHAPTER THREE
If Joe Biden was consulting an astrologer on major American issues,
how would you feel? Would you vote for an astrology believer?
We interrupted a New York City dinner party to ask
(20:34):
that very same question.
Woman 1 (20:38):
It would feel more like, um, the president was just rolling the dice, if that was how he was making decisions.
Woman 2 (20:45):
Yes, I would vote for a presidential candidate that used astrology to guide their decision making, and I would think that they were very wise.
Man 1 (20:54):
Absolutely not. For as much as I like the astrology and the meaning behind that, I think that there is, uh, absolutely no connection between being a great president and reading the, the stars.
Man 2 (21:07):
It's just not politically correct.
Mangesh Hattikudur (21:12):
But the truth is, Reagan's interest in astrology does not
make him an outlier. Here's a list of modern politicians
who read their horoscope and checked it twice.
Group of kids shouting (21:27):
One! Richard Nixon
Mangesh Hattikudur (21:30):
Nixon was a quirky guy. Not only did he ban
soup in the White House and eat cottage cheese with ketchup,
but he also valued the advice of astrologer Jeanne Dixon, who,
to be fair, also gave advice to Franklin Roosevelt, JFK
and the Reagans. But Nixon called her his soothsayer, and
not only did Jeanne visit him in the White House,
(21:50):
but she sent the president copious letters on national security predictions.
In fact, in nineteen seventy two, when she warned a
threat on American soil after the Munich Olympics, Nixon used
her intel to alert Kissinger and to assemble a counter
terrorism unit.
Group of kids shouting (22:08):
Two! Boris Yeltsin.
Mangesh Hattikudur (22:11):
The only thing I remember about Boris Yeltsin is that
one time when he was visiting Washington, he almost caused
this international incident because he left the White House grounds
drunk in just his underwear, desperate to find some late
night pizza. This is true, which I can respect. But
(22:31):
Yelson was also an astrology head. During his presidency, a
naval captain revealed to The Economist that Russia had a
secret institute that employed "military astrologers."
Group of kids shouting (22:43):
Three! Francois Mitterand
Mangesh Hattikudur (22:48):
When the French president's wife made accusations that Mitterand was only interested in his astrologer because he was sleeping with her, the astrologer, a former model and actress, released tapes of their conversations to show that they had a purely professional relationship. And on these tapes were incredible things, like Mitterand trying to understand the power struggles in Russia. Through astrology, he was using the stars to vet cabinet members, and most curiously, he was taking astrological advice on how to handle France's role and entry into the Gulf War.
(23:30):
Anyway, all that's to say that a handful of astrologers have had way more sway on world events than any of us would like to think.
CHAPTER FOUR
(23:57):
If we're to believe Joan Quigley, one of the many things she helped make happen was Supreme Court Justice Anthony Kennedy's appointment. She also claims to have planned the president's debate times and delayed the timing of Reagan's cancer surgery, but perhaps most importantly, Quigley takes credit for changing the president's opinion about Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev. As reported in the New York Times, Quigley battled to the mat for three hours to convince Nancy Reagan that her husband could trust Gorbachev. As Quigley said, “the placement of his ruler, Mercury, symbolizes to me that despite his Russian training and origins, Gorbachev has the instincts of the humanitarian.” Joan also convinced the president to work towards disarmament, and to extend his trip in Europe to hammer out an agreement.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (24:45):
The one thing everybody agrees on is that Joan Quigley
actually did help decide when the president traveled, because that
was Nancy's big fear after the assassination attempt. And so
I think everybody is, is pretty much in agreement that yes, Joan
Quigly helped identify days where maybe it wouldn't be a
good idea to go anywhere. That, you know, for safety's sake,
you might not want to fly on that day. Maybe
(25:08):
fly the next day, or fly a couple hours later,
and that will be safer for you. And nobody really
had a problem with that. Then it kind of shades
into this thing of like, well, if he's not making
a public appearance for a week, that's a big deal, right?
Because that affects what he's able to do as president.
And um certainly Joan coming out and saying that she
(25:29):
literally told him that based on his chart and Gorbachev's chart,
that they should sit down and talk. I mean that's
really explosive.
Mangesh Hattikudur (25:37):
Well, especially at the the time, right? Like we are
at the height of the Cold War; there's like nuclear
proliferation on both sides in a massive way, and people
are worried that someone will hit a button and cause
the end of the earth. Like that's-- the idea of
talking with your enemy at that time was pretty significant.
Mary Phillips-Sandy (25:56):
People were very upset at the idea that this random
astrologer was influencing such big decisions when there was so
much at stake.
Mangesh Hattikudur (26:05):
Do you think Reagan was actually using this advice? Was
this just going to his wife? What was the deal here?
Mary Phillips-Sandy (26:10):
So that was sort of the other question. Was this
Nancy's fault? Because everything back then was Nancy's fault. She
had this image of being this evil puppeteer of her
helpless husband who loved her so much he would just
do whatever she wanted
Mangesh Hattikudur (26:25):
[static sound] Just a quick aside
ambitious for her husband; incredibly ambitious. Jimmy Stewart once said
that had Ronald been married to Nancy earlier, he would
have won an Academy award. And Reagan's aides admit this too.
They say that without Nancy there would have been no
Governor Reagan, no President Reagan. She absolutely took a lot
(26:47):
of heat for allegedly being the power behind the throne.
And so when this came out? That it was Nancy's
friend making these calls? That was more evidence that she
was actually controlling him.
(27:13):
CHAPTER FIVE
Earlier in the show, we skimmed over the fact that
there was an assassination attempt on Ronald Reagan. As he
was leaving a speech and walking to his limo, John
Hinckley Jr, a delusional individual who was trying to impress
Jodie Foster, pulled out a Rome RG 1422 caliber, and he shot it
(27:36):
six times in less than two seconds.
audio clip (27:47):
[News tape of the assassination attempt, shouting, gunfire]
Mangesh Hattikudur (27:47):
The first five shots missed their mark. One hit Reagan's press secretary Jim Brady in the head. Another hit an agent in the stomach as he put his body on the line. But as the Secret Service pushed the president into the limo, the final bullet bounced off the car, ricocheting into the president's lung and lodging just 25 millimeters from his heart. Few people would know just how close he'd come to death
White House spokesperson (28:24):
This is to confirm the statements made at George Washington Hospital that the president was shot once in the left side this afternoon as he left the hotel. Mrs. Reagan is currently with the president at the hospital.
Mangesh Hattikudur (28:25):
It happened early in his presidency on March, and the
truth is, in most discussions of Reagan's legacy, it's glossed over.
In his obituary in the New York Times, the shooting
isn't even mentioned until the 25th paragraph. So in the
(28:49):
scope of things, it just isn't thought about that much.
But for Nancy Reagan, it was something entirely different. Right,
This was something she could ever ever forget. As I
(29:09):
was trying to sort through all of this and put
Nancy in context, Mary sent me one more clip. Ye,
Nancy's appearance on the Tonight Show with Johnny Carson.
Johnny Carson (29:25):
Can I ask you about the astrology? You get tired
of answering that question?
Nancy Reagan (29:28):
No.
Johnny Carson (29:28):
That's one of the things, you know that, uh, when it hit the papers, wow.
Nancy Reagan (29:32):
I know.
Mangesh Hattikudur (29:33):
If you're looking at the video, Nancy so clearly doesn't
want to talk about this, but she will. I know
she's a trained actor. I know she's good at playing
the role of first lady. But still hearing her say
why she put faith in astrology, why she needed to
put faith in it, Well, it breaks your heart where
(29:54):
it breaks mine.
Nancy Reagan (29:55):
You can't, you can't really describe what you go through. Uh,
when your husband is shot and almost dies. And most
people didn't know that. There were... there were two times
that they came to me and said they couldn't find
his pulse. Um, he was very close to going in
the shock. And if he had, then, that would have been it.
(30:19):
And not everybody has their way of of handling that
particular kind of trauma, and that particular kind of trauma is... it's,
is very special. And I talked to my minister, I
talked to friends. And then I had a friend called
me and say, gee, they she he had talked to
(30:40):
this girl and woman and, uh, she could have told me
that Ronnie shouldn't have done a thing on that day.
Johnny Carson (30:45):
Right.
Nancy Reagan (30:46):
And I thought, my Lord, I could have prevented if
you know, and um, so I called her. I didn't
think I was doing anything so wrong, and I still
don't think I did anything so wrong. It helped me
through a very... really, a very rough time, very tough time.
Mangesh Hattikudur (31:05):
There's so many things about the ways the Reagans tell
their story-- the way they talk about astrology-- that doesn't
really add up. From the governor's oath to the idea
that Ronald had never seen his horoscope except by accident,
to dozens of other inconsistencies. Quigley had met the Reagan's
before she actually worked on Ronald Reagan's governor's campaign. But
(31:27):
none of that stops this part from being true. Nancy
was desperately trying to keep her husband safe. That same year,
there would be an assassination attempt on Pope John Paul
II's life, Egyptian leader Anwar Sadat would be killed, and
world leaders really were under threat.
Nancy's guilt? It kicked in because of all this. Like
(31:49):
why wouldn't she try everything in her power to do that?
Nancy Reagan (31:52):
But there's changes that were made were things like, uh, would
be better to leave at two o'clock or two-thirty? I mean,
you know, there wasn't any great and there were no
political decisions ever made on astrology. I didn't hurt anybody
except I embarrassed Ronnie. I was sorry for that.
Mangesh Hattikudur (32:12):
It's not that I'm enamored with Nancy Reagan all of
a sudden, but I don't laugh at her anymore. Because
faced with the option to do nothing, or do something--
Nancy picked up the phones and worked them. She found
(32:35):
the best astrologer she could. She color-coated her husband's calendar.
She feuded with Reagan's chief of staff over the details
of his schedule, and she fought fiercely to keep her
husband out of harm's way. And seeing the love she
poured into protecting him, it makes me feel guilty because
I didn't do everything I could for my dad. I
(32:58):
really didn't. Sure, I raced to see him, I tussled
his hair, I kissed his head. I dressed and shaved him.
I walked him to him from the bathroom when he
was too weak to lift himself up from his chair.
I helped his frail body in and out of bed,
and stuffed a pillow under his knees. I pulled his
socks off his shiny, hairless legs to keep him warm
(33:20):
when he napped. And I fetched his pulp mystery books
and refilled his bowl of shelled pistachoes. I sat in
the hospital trying to decipher his mumbles and his moans,
and I put chips of ice into his mouth just
to watch him crunch at it and then smile. And
when he could barely respond anymore and the treatments weren't working,
(33:42):
I signed his life away. I ordered the morphine and
brought him home in an ambulance so he could breathe
his last breaths at home. I tried, I really did.
I didn't do enough. I didn't pray, not the way
my mom and sister did. I didn't hunt for an
Ayurvedic cure or research alternative medicines. I didn't place a
(34:07):
bet on the magical because my belief is limited to
what I understand. And I live with that guilt, not
that there's any logic to it. Because even if I
didn't believe, my dad did. And couldn't I have put
aside my pride to give him everything because everything is
(34:30):
what he gave me.
(34:58):
Next week on Skyline Drive, no more being sad! Next week
is 100% fun. We are talking to Moneyball statisticians who
use astrology, CNN's house astrologer. They used to have a
house astrologer, astrology and law school, and BTS. That's right!
We're going to use astrology to figure out Korean Supergroup
(35:18):
BTS's next steps. Maybe? I don't know. I can't see
into the future, but I can promise it will be fun.
(35:42):
Thank you so much for listening. This show was written
by Taffy Brodesser-Akner Executive crews Brodesser-Akner. Based on a book
by Taffy Brodesser... I'm so sorry. Thoese are credits for
Fleischman's in Trouble. I'm reading the wrong credits. That's a
fantastic show. Go stream it after this.
This show
(36:03):
iHeart Podcast. It’s hosted and written by me, Mangesh Hattikudur. But you would not have made it to the third episode if all of these lovely people
(38:36):
to my Amma and my Dad, Lalita and Umesh Hattikudur,
who I have to thank my lucky stars for. Thank
you so much for listening.
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