July 18, 2024 • 42 mins
Cruising in person or on the apps is never easy, but trans masculine people often have a more difficult time in both spaces. In this probing episode, Gabe and Chris talk to filmmaker Jules Rosskam about his new documentary DESIRE LINES, which explores the sexual lives and histories of gay trans men. Then Transferno co-organizer Santos J. Arce stops by to talk about his cruising experiences and what every curious cis guy needs to know to before hitting up gay trans men for dates or hookups.
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Donald C. Shorter Jr
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, viewers.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is an explicit podcast about queer sex,
filtered dirty words and unfiltered descriptions of sexual activities. If
hearing about orgies, anonymous sex, kink, fetish, and more offends
your sensibilities, you might want to skip this. Viewer discretion
is advised. It's definitely not for kids.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
So, Gabe, I have to ask, have you ever hooked
up with a gay trans dude? I am currently hooking
up with a bisexual one.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Does that count? Yes, they're on the spectrum. I love that. Yes.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
No.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Me and my boyfriend have been dating for about seven years,
and I don't want to say a little over a year ago,
we met someone that we were very attracted to and
have sort of like we're not like Threpple status, but
you know, we're like kind of dating him knocking on
that door. We met in a very social, somewhat sexual setting,
and so I think it was very easy to like
make the introductions and be flirty and then we just
(00:58):
kind of started to.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Hang out outside of hooking ups. It's been a lot
of fun. Yeah, And I think I've also learned a
lot about.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
The spectrum of the trans masculine experience through him. Not
that I ever make him educate me or that he's
had to, but it's like I think, when someone that
you care about is part of a community, and someone
that you're intimate with is part of a community, you're
going to learn about that community, and you should learn
about that community if you care about them.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I have a lot of transmit in my community, and
I have definitely made out with quite a few and
like have birched that subject. But I find myself really
investigating whether this is a fetish or a desire and
really having to like and what has like prohibited me
from going that next step is like I have to
(01:42):
be very clear about where this is going and why
I'm doing it, what my intention is behind it, because
I don't ever want to get into a situation where
I'm fetishizing someone. Really, I have had it happen to
me for many years and it doesn't feel great, you know.
And so I'm knocking on that door, what.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Are you jiggling the handle? That's I am a little bit.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
But then I also like get in my head and
there's like a fear around like.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
How how do I do this?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
How do I do this, you know, and you know,
I've got twenty five years experience, and so I don't want.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
To look like a fool. No, I feel that.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
But I feel like there are so many sexual scenarios
where I'm like, oh, this is new for me, right,
whether it's new partners, new experiences, new kinks, Like we
should constantly feel like we are learning in our sexual lives.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Sure, yeah, but like sometimes I just want to, like,
you know, feel like I'm good at something and like
new tricks.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Well, to do that in these situations, you gotta practice.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Yeah, Okay, I know, I just gotta like rip the
bandaid off, so to speak, and just like do it.
And I do have some people that I feel really
safe with and we've had lots of conversations around this,
and I feel like I could do that.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
But there, yeah, there's a little bit of fear there.
I got to walk through fear. That's it. Well, we're
walking through today.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Cruising in person or on the apps can be a
different experience for trans guys who hook up with other guys,
as today's guests have shared through their writing and work.
This episode, we're talking to filmmaker Jules Roscom about his
amazing new documentary film Desire Lines, which explores gay transsexuality
and history. Then we talked to kink educator Santos jay
I say about navigating the world of cruising, dating, and
(03:22):
sex as a trans gay man.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
We'll get tips and tricks for both trans guys and
cisguys to improve your pickups and hookups online and in person.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Get ready today We're going cruising with trans guys. Welcome
to Stiffy's Cruising Confessions.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I am Gabe Gonzalez.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
I'm Chris Patterson Rosso. Each week weeks for the Sublime
World of Queer sex, cruising and Relationships.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Will be talking to queer folks of all kinds. Ask
them questions, swap sex stories, share intimate revelations.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
A lot of us are discovering ourselves in cruising spaces.
This happened to me at this toilet stall, in the
library or the airport. I feel like everybody's gonna fuck
a little harder here.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Damn.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
So I've been like the neighborhood flat and I took
pride in that I.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Was so afraid but yet so intrigued.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
And the more I gave to him, the more he
could take.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
If you're having sex on Sniffy's you already have a
moral deficit.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Over the weekend game.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And I watched this really amazing documentary called Desire Lines.
It's been screening at festivals all over the country.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Through a hybrid documentary and scripted approach, the film explores
how trans gay men understand and engage in their sexuality.
With a diverse cast of transman we're all very open
and honest about their experiences, both good and bad.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Let's take a look at the trailer.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Came to see you, doctor Paully, because I understood that
you are the reigning expert on the female to male
transsexual and I also understood that you had not met
or or heard of a female to male transsexual who
identified as a gay man. And that's exactly what I am,
(04:55):
and I want my story preserver.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
You wanted to know what it's like in an actual bathhouse.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
I've talked about it.
Speaker 7 (05:03):
And so when I think about the early narratives of transnis,
it was like you were female to male or your
male to female and that skit and you're head of
a sexual. Then you started to see the like parentheses
of trans men and trans masculine folk who were engaging
with men, and it was like this big secret, and
I was like, why is it such a secret. We
were all doing it.
Speaker 6 (05:34):
And so yeah, So I don't know, it's weird to
be like chicken out of the egg, Like, you know,
did the tea make me gay?
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Was I always deftined to be interested in men?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Desire Lines was directed by Acclaim filmmaker Jules Roscomb, and
we were super excited to have him join us on
today's episode of Cruising Case Confessions.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Welcome Jules.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
We could not stop talking about this film. We're so
excited to talk to you about it. Where did this
film process begin for you? What was the genesis of
this idea?
Speaker 6 (06:10):
I was actually thinking about making the film for almost
twenty years before I started making it, which is definitely
the longest I've spent thinking about a film before starting it.
And it really just came from my own experiences in
community with trans men and noticing how many of us
(06:30):
seem to develop attraction after coming out as trans, and
just being so fascinated by why that is, because I think,
in part, because you know, we were I would say
lesbian and gay activists of the nineties did so much
work to teach mostly sis straight people that gender and
sexuality were not the same thing, and yet they animate
(06:52):
each other. Right, because your sexuality is related to gender,
you are attracted to certain genders. Gender plays a part
in it, so they're not totally different. So I was like,
why is this happening for trans men? But it doesn't
seem to happen in the same way for trans women,
So it's something specific to trans masculinity. What is this about?
Why is this also a process that seems not just
(07:17):
like a joyous revelation, Oh my god, I'm attracted to men,
but somewhat fraught for a lot of transmen. And I
kind of was just waiting for someone else to make
the film, and then in twenty nineteen, I finally was like, Okay,
I guess it's going to be me. And I don't
(07:37):
make films to prove a point or with a predetermined thesis.
It's really emerges out of dialogue with other people and
from my community.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
The doc begins with a quote from Lou Sullivan, an
author and activist and for those who don't know, one
of the first very visible transmen to come out as gay.
And the quote that opens a film is our best
weapon in coping with our situation is our imagination? Do
you think imagination plays in our conceptions around gender and sexuality.
Speaker 6 (08:05):
It's maybe the most central role our imagination, and not
just around gender and sexuality, but for everyone who is
marginalized in this culture, who is looking for a better
or different version of the one we're currently attempting to survive.
Imagination is critical, and if you don't have a robust imagination,
(08:30):
you're not going to have a lot of fun with
either your gender or your sexuality. I think that's why
to me and so many other people who know about him,
Lou Sullivan's so. I mean, he's a revolutionary. Every time
I think about certain parts of his life and what
he did and the things he said, and how bold
he was, I get just like I get kind of
(08:50):
overwhelmed to think about what it was like to be
an out, gay trans man in the nineteen seventies. It's
hard enough now, and I just think about what Lou
went through and how he he didn't stop no matter
how many people told him he couldn't exist, or he
(09:11):
couldn't do what he wanted to do or be who
he wanted to be. He didn't take no for an answer.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, I really love those archival interviews within the frame
narrative were so moving and like really helped frame the interviews. Earlier,
you were talking about how for some of the folks
you interviewed, realizing their attraction to men was a bit fraught.
I'm curious how many people did you interview who felt
at least a little embarrassed about admitting to themselves or
their friends that they wanted to have sex with men.
Speaker 6 (09:36):
I mean, honestly, almost all of them were, you know,
experienced some period of either embarrassment, shame, disappointment. There's so
many other interviews that didn't end up in the film,
but one of them in particular was like a non binary,
trans masculine person who is literally afraid to take testosterone
(09:58):
because they're afraid it will quote unquote make them get
and they desperately do not want to be attracted to men.
They're very pleased with their attraction to women, and they
really are afraid of that attraction. It's not even the attraction,
but it's the sort of social political aspects of it.
(10:19):
Hashtag not all gay men, but there's a lot of
misogyny still deep in the game mel community and it's
you know, very dick focused, and it's still really working
on accepting trans men. So you know, I understand people's
fears and anxiety as I had my own for sure.
Deep ambivalence is about attractions. In some ways, it's not
(10:42):
that different than assist person coming out as gay. Right,
whether coming out as lesbian or as a gay man,
or as queer or whatever, we all have to fight
our individual demons around that, and so I just think
this is no different, though maybe a little bit more
confusing in some ways.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
I want to talk a little bit about why you
chose the way you made the film, and what I
mean by that is, like, there's this narrative that's happening,
but then you're also splicing it with this documentary, and
like that was so impactful for me because they both
helped move the story along, and the way that you
wove them together so seamlessly was really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Can you talk to me about that process.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
I mean, in some ways you answered the question right.
It's that both modes of storytelling tell a story in
a different way, and they impact us differently. One might
be more intellectual, one might be more emotional, one might
be more sensual. Trying to sort of tell this complex story,
especially if we go back to your question earlier about
imagination that like these fantasy sequences, these sort of fever
(11:45):
dreams in the bath house, moving between the bath house
and the archive, but it wouldn't have been as compelling
to be done as a kind of straightforward doc. Trans
and queer content deserve trans and queer form. Otherwise you're
sticking around peg in a square hole or whatever that's saying.
Speaker 8 (12:00):
Otherwise it just becomes becomes a straight story or a
straight narrative with trans and queer characters, and so we
have to tell our stories differently.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I was out last night with my partner who is
trans masculine, and his friend who is no binary trans masculine,
and we were at like a mixed queer and straight
sports bar, and one of them was like, I actually
prefer venues like this to the cat katakat gay bars.
They're like, I can't deal with the yes, Mama queen
bars because sometimes I do feel a bit alienated there.
(12:32):
So I'm curious about how you've maybe seen queer spaces,
specifically gay bars, sort of change and what you'd maybe
like to see change or for folks to keep in
mind in these spaces to be more trans inclusive, you know.
Speaker 6 (12:45):
Thinking about when I was first sort of coming out
as trans in the early two thousands in New York
City and going to gay bars and having ninety nine
percent of the time really awful experiences. I would be
about to go home with someone or you know, sort
of hooking up with someone in a corner or just
(13:05):
chatting with someone or whatever, and then I have to
disclose that I'm trans, and all of a sudden, I'm she.
All of a sudden, I'm disgusting. All of a sudden,
like the whole mood changes. That's not my experience anymore.
I would notice a real shift, or starting around ten
years ago, of like I would go to Chicago or
San Francisco or somewhere else, like can I open up
(13:25):
a hookup app? And all of a sudden, it was
like people were interested, not it was more interest than
rather than what the fuck are you? Or why are
you on here? Or just like nasty comments or even
when it's not nasty comments, just ignorant comments. I think
that that's the biggest shift. Does one that some people
(13:46):
at least know in the gay male community, No transmen
exist now, I think most it's not confusing anymore. The
issue I've had in some of those kinds of spaces,
and I think this still persists, is there's really different
culture in gay mal culture are than there is and
say like queer women's culture about like bodies and consent
(14:06):
and touch. So I would walk into a gay bar
and someone would like go to grab my dick, and
then it's like literally without saying hi, you know, like
there's no it's like the boundaries are not quite there,
and the like consent forward culture isn't quite there. And
there's some times where that really works and it's hot,
and other times where it feels really dangerous and feels
(14:27):
like I'm not going to go into this space because
I don't want to get groped tonight, or I don't
want to have to cover conversation after you try to
put your hand down my pants or whatever. It is.
Almost every single time I talk to assist gay man
and there's like that in a sexual context, there's the
assumption that I'm a bottom because I'm a transman, and
for me, that doesn't happen to be true. And that's
(14:49):
my biggest block in relationships sexual relationships with gay man?
Is that assuming that all transmn are bottoms and then
going again back to this imagination thing when I'm like, no,
I'm not a bottom, then it's like, well I don't
understand how that could possibly work. And I'm like, well,
if you can't imagine, like if that's how like you know,
(15:11):
sad your imagination is, we're not going to have fun
sex anyway, regardless of who's on top or was on
the bottom, Like, so we're do it.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Was like, we have the technology, Like there's nothing more
exciting than when a partner comes over and brings out
a bag of dicks right.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
From you.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
I'm like, that's the kind of accommodation I could never
get who with a cis man?
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Yeah, there are some days I'm willing to take more
than I and than others, and like having that option
is always wonderful.
Speaker 6 (15:39):
Yes, we're like live transformers.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I've seen people put that in their bios now, putting
transformer in their bio. What do you think started the
shift that you mentioned about ten years ago?
Speaker 6 (15:54):
A couple of things, one more transmen being out and
just so there being more numbers. I do think also
as even though these hookup apps can also be sites
of a lot of violence and you know, misogyny, transphobia, racism,
all the things we all know. They became the place
where the only place I was sort of willing to
engage with CIS men because I could just have it out.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I'm out.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
I don't have to disclose halfway through the conversation or
halfway through a makeout or whatever it is. It was
just there and I'd rather just if you're going to
talk to me, you know. And then there's been a huge,
I think media explosion around trans folks in general, certainly
more about trans women or transfemininity than trans masculinity, but
(16:40):
trans masculinity in the last like I would say, three years,
has suddenly gotten way more attention and visibility, you know,
which also cuts both ways. But yeah, so I think
it's a confluence of things. And I think probably my
guess is that CIS men are also starting to you know,
(17:00):
are over the last decade having more relationships sexual, romantic, whatever,
with trans men telling their friends that we exist, that
we're fun, that we're you know, whatever it might be.
So I think, you know, it's like a little bit
of word of mouth to spreading in the community and
just getting more kind of knowledge and experience.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
I will say we got we got quite quite hot
and bothered after watching the documentary. I know, we really
fell in love with this sort of bath house through line,
didn't we that?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I loved it.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yeah, I love a bath house, and so anytime there's
one portrayed for me, I'm like, let's do that. And
like New York doesn't really have any bathhouses anymore, so
I'm like longing for that bathhouse experience.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
That was not part of my initial kind of conception
of the film, but it emerged out of the interviews
I did with the trans guys, and I was personally
very surprised to hear about how many of them had
had like really positive, transformative experiences in gay bath houses,
and that it was really an experience where they came
(18:00):
to understand their their bodies on a spectrum right, and
that in some ways their bodies didn't feel that different
than other than guy's bodies, and it was a place
where they experienced a lot more acceptance than say in
some like online spaces or other kind of bars or whatever.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
I mean.
Speaker 6 (18:21):
I think bathostos are just historically such a unique place
which is you know, not to over romanticize them and
to say they're without problem, because of course that's not true,
but they can be. I think these really interesting places
of cross racial, cross cross class, cross generational contact, and
(18:45):
places where people sometimes I think, actually end up in
sexual scenarios or with in sexual relationships with people that
if looking scrolling through an app, they wouldn't have quote
unquote chosen necessarily. But you're in a space and you're
feeling the energy, which is while we all those online
(19:06):
spaces for me are so hard because I'm like, you
might be hot and you might be saying hot things,
but if we get in the same space and the
energy isn't there, yeah, like the sexual energy, like what
are we doing?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Like now you know it?
Speaker 6 (19:18):
Just yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Well, I mean I love that moment where it's like
there's sort of the awkward chit chat and you can
feel the energy building and you're like, all right, when
when is this going.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
To bubble over?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
When is the green like totally right in a way
that you don't quite get that same excitement speaking with
somebody and then you show up in their ass up
and you're like, oh, well this is hot, but like
I enjoy the flirtation in the build a bit. I
want to be emotionally edged before we hook up.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, all us talk
about bath houses. I have to know what was your
last experience at a bath house?
Speaker 6 (19:52):
Like, I haven't been to very many, and I haven't
been in a long time actually, So when I was
making the film, at one point, I like set up
a Google voicemail where people could leave their bathouse confessions.
And I just remembered the most amazing story I had heard.
So this transasculine person who had was a gestational parent
(20:16):
and so had just had given birth I don't know,
maybe a year prior, and was chest feeding their child,
so had like milk coming, you know, was producing milk.
Went to bath house, went in, was in this room
like an orgy room, and was surrounded by maybe half
(20:39):
a dozen Cisca men who were undressing them and were
in various modes of you know, we're naked, we're jerking off,
we're having a good time. And they started like lactating
and we're just sort of squirting their milk everywhere, and
(21:01):
everyone was really into it, and it was amazing, and
I had so doubly wanted to film this scene for
the film, but I couldn't. We couldn't get it, get it,
get there. But I had just when they left this message,
like this is the best bathhouse story I have ever heard.
And I just love the image of like a transmasculine
(21:22):
person who's lactating and there's like ciscay men holding their dicks,
jerking off, like living for this moment, Like it's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
You really have one idea of what a bathhouse is
going to be, and it's a different spot every night,
you know what I mean. Like it's like you said,
it's it's places where different journeys and communities intersect in
really fun and surprising ways.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
And it's like, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
If somebody would put like I'm lactating, come drink off
to me lactating, I'm sure a lot of people would
have been like what O.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
But then doing a person seeing a person? Right, they
were like, wait, I love this. That is incredible. That's
so cool.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
You're like, they're like, I like watching bodily fluids come
out of some one's body part, and who would have thought,
but I'm into this body part ejaculating also so here
we go, Here we go.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Everybody in the room is leaking somehow, right, Yeah, I
truly feel like we could sit here and talk to
you for hours. This is fascinating. Where can people see
the film this summer and where can they find you
on social media?
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Jules Roskam Films and then desire linesfilm dot com is
our website. I hope to see you guys at are
screening sometime soon.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
All right, when we come back, we'll be getting tips
and tricks from both CIS and trans gay men to
have better and hotter interactions and sex.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Our next guest is a leather Daddy, a musician and
the host of the kink Punks podcast, where he and
his co host August provide holistic, ethical, kink aware, pleasure
focused sex ad for trans masculine and adjacent people.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
He is one of the organizers of transferno, Y's first
trans mask centered sex part.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Please welcome Santos.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Jay Santos, I wanted to kick us off by talking
a little bit about an article you wrote for the
publication Them in February this year.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
It was great.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
This is an article about the what you call the
complicated reality of being trans mask on apps. What are
your experiences in this realm and what prompted you to
write this piece.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
My experiences on the apps have a lot to do
with my experience, right, so, like as in, I've been
in this life for almost twenty years, and I kind
of at this point kind of know how to handle
myself and I don't settle. So that's pretty much how
I navigate these things. And that has a lot to
(23:40):
do with the kind of education that I want to
put out there, because if I can help folks trust
their gut and trust themselves, you know, we can all
mitigate like a little bit of harm and also like
really promote a lot more pleasure for other people. Sometimes
folks will be crude and people will be like, oh,
so you're a woman, I want to fuck your pussy
or whatever, and it's just like it feels really irrelevant
(24:02):
to me. First off, No, a lot of like transmand
and transpasculine people who aren't super savvy don't realize that
if somebody's really pushy on the apps, they're going to
be ten times pushy or in.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Bed, which is terrifying.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Yeah, yeah, totally, But you know, thankfully there there are
you know, good like good things do happen. I've met
some wonderful subs, some wonderful play partners for some people
that's like played out for several years. It's just like
lots of really nice chemistry, you know, and some of
the chemistry is like led to deeper relationships and some
(24:40):
of the chemistry has just led to reliable hookups every
once in a while.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
We talked about not settling.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
What was the conversation you have with yourself where you
were just like, I'm not going to settle, and this
is what settling looks like.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
Before I learned how to cruise, I had different partners.
I kind of learned through them that you know, the
more you ask for what you want, the more you
get what you want. And it wasn't until I was
about thirty five I'm forty three now that I was
able to consistently ask for what I want. And still
it's a little bit of a struggle, you know, and
taking up space just you know, we're not encouraged to
(25:13):
take up space in general as human beings, but really
like giving yourself permission to take up space and giving
yourself permission to ask for what you want. I mean,
that's kind of in my mind, one of the main
things is like entitlement in cruising. You know, there's a
(25:33):
lot of entitlement to touch in shared spaces, and there's
a lot of entitlement to ask. But then those of
us who care a little more, I think, don't always
feel that entitlement. So I think that like giving yourself
that equal entitlement helps you know not to settle. Also,
I feel like I have settled when I feel like
(25:55):
I can't do better, or like I'm impatient or whatever.
And you know, I've just learned a certain amount of
patients because a lot of times when I settle, I
don't get what I want.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Anyway, No, same, And I think this idea of like
accepting that you can be entitled is revolutionary for me.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
Yeah, because like, as a.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Black queer person, even in the cruising space, I've never
felt like.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
I could be entitled to anything.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Yeah, And so giving myself permission to have that entitlement,
I'm running with that.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Yeah. I mean, if we could all be as entitled
as a mediocre white man, that.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Wi ha oh, So send those I think one of
the most powerful parts of this article is where you
discuss your body and kind of have this moment of
affirmation explaining that your body doesn't need to meet anyone
else's standards, right part of this deciding not to settle.
Did engaging with people on apps make it harder to
realize that you don't need to meet anyone else's standards,
(26:53):
or did it in some roundabout way help you make
this realization.
Speaker 5 (26:57):
One of the things about being on the app apps
is the the absolute crudeness, right, which is honestly part
of why we're there for it.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Right.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
Also, I think rejection is just data, you know, right,
And it's not even about you, like it's it's it's
how other people perceive you from their background, et cetera.
Getting rejected a lot and trying to acquiesce to other
people's needs or et cetera. Like just it doesn't it
(27:31):
doesn't get you far. And if you hit that wall
enough times, you know you kind of you're just like, wait,
what fuck it? Like what do I want? I feel
like that's an important point to reach.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I'm curious how do things differ for you when you
get to the in person cruising scenario versus the apps.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
I mean, I started out in person cruising at Glory
Holes because of the anonymity. It's really basic. But the
first time I heard suck that dick boy, I was
just like, this is this is perfect, this is music
to my ears. That affirmation and that curiosity led me
to start going to sex parties eventually. So there's kind
(28:11):
of this Spidey sense where you're like, that guy is
looking at me, and if I look back at him,
he's going to look back at me again, which means
I should probably talk to him. And if you just
talk to somebody like that, you know, you end up
in lots of fun trouble if you want to be.
Getting a handle on that, and just understanding that sex
(28:32):
is available, you know, makes things like sex parties and
such a lot easier. Before I really started transition, it
was hard for me to relate to other people because
I didn't really understand the vector from which my personality
was going to. So it's kind of like, if I'm
this spectral entity who like doesn't really understand where I
(28:55):
fit within gender, how can I interact with other people.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Authentically?
Speaker 5 (29:01):
Yes, exactly exactly. Getting myself right with myself kind of
helped me figure out how to cruise.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
What advice do you have for folks who do want
to start cruising based on what cruising spaces look like today, I.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
Would say one of my first things is some folks
are coming from Saffik backgrounds, and some folks are just
like not necessarily coming from any particular queer background in general,
and they're not used to being touched without being approached
about it first, being aware that that is a frequent
occurrence in gay male spaces, and to be to be
(29:37):
ready for that. You can always just push somebody's hand away,
And that goes back to the entitlement, right. That goes
back to asking for what you want. Another thing is
get your vaccines, take your meds. You know, risk means
that it can happen to you, and you know there
isn't any STI that is not treatable, and it's it's
(29:58):
just a thing that happens and it's totally fine. I
really think it's important to value yourself. A lot of
people are afraid to go into gay spaces because they
are afraid of not being affirmed and afraid of people gatekeeping.
And if people are gatekeeping, they're not hot period period.
(30:25):
If somebody is rejecting you, they're helping you dodge a bullet.
Because it wouldn't have been hot with them anyway.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yes, what advice would you give to a ciscay man
who's looking to look up a transascular men?
Speaker 5 (30:34):
Trans Men are men, right, and which seems obvious, but
it's it's it bears repeating. And also not all transvasculine
people are men, right, but those of us who do
identify as men are men. Early in transition, I felt
like I was, you know, a girl becoming a man,
(30:55):
you know, And then later on I was like, wait
a minute, I was I you know, corrected and corrected
and corrected or coursed and course to coursed every single
day growing up. I didn't actually get to expand into
this boyhood that was right there, right in front of me.
And then I understood, you know, after you know, a
long time that I was boil along. So it feels
(31:19):
very much for me like less of going from one
gender to another and more like awakening from gas lighting
and settling into the thing that I always was. Everybody's
got a different experience of their gender. But if we
think of it in that way or other ways that
are presented to us, you know, we can really take
(31:42):
the heart that yes, transmit are men. So that's the
place that I always want to start with that. So
another thing is be curious, ask people, ask people what
they like, what they're into. You can ask people, how
do you like to be touched? You can you know,
if you want to be subby, you can say, put
(32:03):
my hands where you want them, or put my dick
where you want it or whatever. Just being open to
lots of possibilities and speaking of possibilities, transmend and transpasculine
people may have a variety of different procedures and hormones,
et cetera that that our bodies may be, you know,
(32:23):
that we may use on our bodies. So I there's
there's this, uh, there's this idea that you know, trans
men are these like merman, you know, like we've we've
we've got we've got, uh, you know, our our top
chop and then we've got like, you know, our our
pussy's there, you know. And and also that's not a
(32:46):
word that everybody loves. But yeah, so so yeah, I
mean there's lots of different, lots of different possibilities. Lots
of people get lower surgery, lots of people don't get
top surgery. Some people have hormones, some people get hormones,
some people don't. So there's lots of different possibilities in
terms of that and just keeping an open mind, you know.
(33:08):
And you know, lots of people have sex and lots
of different ways, and some of it relates to gender,
and some of it relates to just different preferences in general,
and also abilities, like lots of people with disabilities have
to have sex in different ways. Other things would be
wash your damn hands, wash your damn dick. If I'm
(33:29):
you know, at a play party or at a sex party,
you know, I want to make sure that a dick
hasn't been in an ass before it's going inside of me.
That's very important. It's really important to be aware that
like t is not birth control, to stopsterone is not
birth control?
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yes, yeah, so what are.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
You doing for that? Are you having that conversation? Do
you have a vasectomy if you're just gonna like go raw.
So there's lots of different things to think about. And
also some people do need to use condoms because they're
you know, delicate ecosystems will react badly to new stimuli,
you know, or like new new things going into them.
(34:08):
But not everybody uses their front hole. And let's see
in terms of in terms of oral anything that is
presented to you as a dick, treat it like a dick.
So that could be fingers, that could be a dildo,
that could be like a phallus on the person's body.
Treat it like a dick. Don't treat it like a clitterius,
(34:30):
and you know you'll probably be fine. Check in with
the person. Whenever I have sex with a guy who
hasn't had sex with a trans guy before, like a
sis guy who hasn't had sex with a trans guy before,
I'm usually like, you fucked a guy, right, And they're like, yeah,
Like you'll be fine. Just treat me like a guy. Yeah, exactly,
(34:53):
You've got it, you know. So you know, if you're
going from back to front, I'm gonna stop you. But
you know, there are little things like that, little little
you know, things to be aware of, but overall, just
like if you are having sex with a man, just
treat him like a man and it'll be fine.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
So I have to ask, as a person who kind
of struggles with this myself, how do you deal with
chasers and fetishizing right?
Speaker 1 (35:17):
How do you navigate that?
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Because I find myself really interested in having connections with transmit.
But I don't I worry if I'm fetishizing or if
I'm chasing, right, and how do I what's that line?
And how do you navigate that? Yeah, that's really.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Cool, lots of answers. If I feel like I am
the only thing standing between some guy and my genitals,
that's what being chased feels like, you know, like it's
not about me, it's about what he wants, what he expects. Right,
(35:54):
So if that's not the vibe that you're coming from,
you're probably not chasing.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Okay, So like I just needed to hear it from you.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Yeah, so I I have every confidence that that you'll
be fine.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
We can't put it to the test soon. Don't worry.
There will be parties coming up. We got you.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
Frankly, for chasers, like actual chasers, I feel like there's
there is a very select, narrow slot, no pun intending I.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Was going to say where.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Now, Yeah, so a very a very select, like very
narrow place where that where that fits if you feel
good taking out the adoration from that, which is complicated
because it comes with a lot of ship that people
don't want to hear, right, so basically like I don't
want to hear about my body. I don't want to
(36:47):
hear about what you want really because it's like fucked up.
But the experience of just taking off your clothes and
having somebody go, oh my god, that's amazing, you know,
like just that kind of thing. They're not marveling in you,
They're marvel in their fetish If you can pause wanting
to be seen, you know, if it's not important to
you to be seen by someone and just to take
(37:10):
take everything at face value, then that works, you know,
Like I've I've definitely had lots of lots and lots
of sex that was like that, but also like if
that's not something you can do, it's not gonna be fun. No.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
I appreciate you delineating that because I think, as you said,
it's like there, and I mean, I think this can
apply to so many sexual scenarios. There's sort of a
fine line between adoration, affirmation, and fetishizing, and I think
the way you phrased that difference is like such a
clear delineation that I think folks can walk away with
and be like, oh yeah, am I.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Hoogab with a person?
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Or am I hoogay with a person because I'm fetishizing
a body part, their colors, their skin, their gender identity,
their genitals.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Like that's yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:50):
Yeah. Fetishizing is often you transplanting your your idea of
what you want onto a person. So I mean, if
you want to if we're talking about you right for
right now, if you want to connect with somebody and
that's hot for you, that's not fetishizing.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah. No, I just want to connect with these people totally,
that's yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:13):
Yeah, easy.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
They turned me on in ways I can't describe.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Okay, So we've been talking a lot about these spaces,
and I know that you are one of the folks
involved with organizing Transferno, which is sort of a companion
party to Inferno, which is a very trans inclusive event.
But I'm curious what drew you to become one of
the organizers at Transferno and why why that event, what
it means to you.
Speaker 5 (38:36):
Chris Gray started it with Adam Barron, So I just
want to be very specific about giving Chris Gray his props.
I would go to every single like Inferno event or
lots of different Inferno events, and Adam is just so
so kind and welcoming, and he invited me to participate
(38:57):
in Transferno back when it was called play House, and
this was in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. I think yeah
and yeah. It was a really it was a really
hot party. And at the time the difference between Transferno
and Inferno was all the trans guys were getting their
dick sucked, whereas at Inferno nobody wanted to be seen
(39:18):
doing that. But things are very different now.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Oh yeah they are. Yeah, who's like, why?
Speaker 5 (39:22):
No? No, No, very different now. Inferno is is such
a wonderful space with I think it's pretty singular in
that there are lots of like the The idea is
no fucking shade, right, which really promotes a lot of community.
In my opinion, The idea for Transferno as it is
now is that if we center one group of people,
(39:45):
it doesn't mean that we exclude others. It means that
we can uplift these people and give them lots of
attention and then everybody can come join and celebrate and
do whatever it is that they do.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
What has been your hottest experience? While I transfer no.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
Hottest, I don't know about hottest. I always have great,
amazing times. There was one of my favorites was there
was this big bear in the sling and I love
a bear, and I was just like, all right, well
I'll go up to him. And he was into it,
and so, you know, his legs were up, he was
(40:19):
in the sling. So I started playing with his ass
and you know, I just felt his asshole just soften
around my fingers. And the more I gave him, the
more he could take. And I was like, I'm not
going to push you if you don't want it, but
I bet you can. I bet you can take my fist.
And and so he just he produced a backpack that
(40:41):
had jaylube, so he was ready. You bet right, he
was super ready. Like I I got all the way
in there. It was amazing. It was really super hot,
and it was it was the location of the sling
was somewhere where lots of people were watching. I'm not
someone I know the one.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
It's one.
Speaker 5 (41:07):
Thing.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, I love that thing has truly accommodated all of Brooklyn.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Sentos, thank you so much for joining us. We also
got to thank Jules Rosscom for joining us remotely. What
a wonderful interview.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Where can folks find you online.
Speaker 5 (41:22):
I have a podcast called King Punk's k I n
K p U n X. Folks can find Transferreno through
the Inferno Party, which has a substack n y C
Inferno dot substack dot com.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Perfect Cool, Thank You.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is a production from Outspoken podcast Network
from iHeart Podcasts. It's directed by Adam Barron, produced by
Stevie Williams and Cameron Femino, and executive producers by Eli Martins.
Cruising Confessions is presented by Snippy's, the ultimate map based
cruising platform for gay by and.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Curious people ready to cruz. Check out the map at
Sniffy's dot com.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
And follow Snippy's on socials at Sniffy's appo.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
What put Your put your poots to?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Y mm hmm,
Hey, viewers.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is an explicit podcast about queer sex,
filtered dirty words and unfiltered descriptions of sexual activities. If
hearing about orgies, anonymous sex, kink, fetish, and more offends
your sensibilities, you might want to skip this. Viewer discretion
is advised. It's definitely not for kids.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
So, Gabe, I have to ask, have you ever hooked
up with a gay trans dude? I am currently hooking
up with a bisexual one.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Does that count? Yes, they're on the spectrum. I love that. Yes.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
No.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Me and my boyfriend have been dating for about seven years,
and I don't want to say a little over a year ago,
we met someone that we were very attracted to and
have sort of like we're not like Threpple status, but
you know, we're like kind of dating him knocking on
that door. We met in a very social, somewhat sexual setting,
and so I think it was very easy to like
make the introductions and be flirty and then we just
(00:58):
kind of started to.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Hang out outside of hooking ups. It's been a lot
of fun. Yeah, And I think I've also learned a
lot about.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
The spectrum of the trans masculine experience through him. Not
that I ever make him educate me or that he's
had to, but it's like I think, when someone that
you care about is part of a community, and someone
that you're intimate with is part of a community, you're
going to learn about that community, and you should learn
about that community if you care about them.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
I have a lot of transmit in my community, and
I have definitely made out with quite a few and
like have birched that subject. But I find myself really
investigating whether this is a fetish or a desire and
really having to like and what has like prohibited me
from going that next step is like I have to
(01:42):
be very clear about where this is going and why
I'm doing it, what my intention is behind it, because
I don't ever want to get into a situation where
I'm fetishizing someone. Really, I have had it happen to
me for many years and it doesn't feel great, you know.
And so I'm knocking on that door, what.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Are you jiggling the handle? That's I am a little bit.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
But then I also like get in my head and
there's like a fear around like.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
How how do I do this?
Speaker 3 (02:13):
How do I do this, you know, and you know,
I've got twenty five years experience, and so I don't want.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
To look like a fool. No, I feel that.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
But I feel like there are so many sexual scenarios
where I'm like, oh, this is new for me, right,
whether it's new partners, new experiences, new kinks, Like we
should constantly feel like we are learning in our sexual lives.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Sure, yeah, but like sometimes I just want to, like,
you know, feel like I'm good at something and like
new tricks.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Well, to do that in these situations, you gotta practice.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Yeah, Okay, I know, I just gotta like rip the
bandaid off, so to speak, and just like do it.
And I do have some people that I feel really
safe with and we've had lots of conversations around this,
and I feel like I could do that.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
But there, yeah, there's a little bit of fear there.
I got to walk through fear. That's it. Well, we're
walking through today.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Cruising in person or on the apps can be a
different experience for trans guys who hook up with other guys,
as today's guests have shared through their writing and work.
This episode, we're talking to filmmaker Jules Roscom about his
amazing new documentary film Desire Lines, which explores gay transsexuality
and history. Then we talked to kink educator Santos jay
I say about navigating the world of cruising, dating, and
(03:22):
sex as a trans gay man.
Speaker 3 (03:23):
We'll get tips and tricks for both trans guys and
cisguys to improve your pickups and hookups online and in person.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Get ready today We're going cruising with trans guys. Welcome
to Stiffy's Cruising Confessions.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
I am Gabe Gonzalez.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
I'm Chris Patterson Rosso. Each week weeks for the Sublime
World of Queer sex, cruising and Relationships.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Will be talking to queer folks of all kinds. Ask
them questions, swap sex stories, share intimate revelations.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
A lot of us are discovering ourselves in cruising spaces.
This happened to me at this toilet stall, in the
library or the airport. I feel like everybody's gonna fuck
a little harder here.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
Damn.
Speaker 5 (03:56):
So I've been like the neighborhood flat and I took
pride in that I.
Speaker 4 (04:00):
Was so afraid but yet so intrigued.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
And the more I gave to him, the more he
could take.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
If you're having sex on Sniffy's you already have a
moral deficit.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Over the weekend game.
Speaker 3 (04:14):
And I watched this really amazing documentary called Desire Lines.
It's been screening at festivals all over the country.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Through a hybrid documentary and scripted approach, the film explores
how trans gay men understand and engage in their sexuality.
With a diverse cast of transman we're all very open
and honest about their experiences, both good and bad.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Let's take a look at the trailer.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Came to see you, doctor Paully, because I understood that
you are the reigning expert on the female to male
transsexual and I also understood that you had not met
or or heard of a female to male transsexual who
identified as a gay man. And that's exactly what I am,
(04:55):
and I want my story preserver.
Speaker 6 (04:57):
You wanted to know what it's like in an actual bathhouse.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
I've talked about it.
Speaker 7 (05:03):
And so when I think about the early narratives of transnis,
it was like you were female to male or your
male to female and that skit and you're head of
a sexual. Then you started to see the like parentheses
of trans men and trans masculine folk who were engaging
with men, and it was like this big secret, and
I was like, why is it such a secret. We
were all doing it.
Speaker 6 (05:34):
And so yeah, So I don't know, it's weird to
be like chicken out of the egg, Like, you know,
did the tea make me gay?
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Was I always deftined to be interested in men?
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Desire Lines was directed by Acclaim filmmaker Jules Roscomb, and
we were super excited to have him join us on
today's episode of Cruising Case Confessions.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Welcome Jules.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
We could not stop talking about this film. We're so
excited to talk to you about it. Where did this
film process begin for you? What was the genesis of
this idea?
Speaker 6 (06:10):
I was actually thinking about making the film for almost
twenty years before I started making it, which is definitely
the longest I've spent thinking about a film before starting it.
And it really just came from my own experiences in
community with trans men and noticing how many of us
(06:30):
seem to develop attraction after coming out as trans, and
just being so fascinated by why that is, because I think,
in part, because you know, we were I would say
lesbian and gay activists of the nineties did so much
work to teach mostly sis straight people that gender and
sexuality were not the same thing, and yet they animate
(06:52):
each other. Right, because your sexuality is related to gender,
you are attracted to certain genders. Gender plays a part
in it, so they're not totally different. So I was like,
why is this happening for trans men? But it doesn't
seem to happen in the same way for trans women,
So it's something specific to trans masculinity. What is this about?
Why is this also a process that seems not just
(07:17):
like a joyous revelation, Oh my god, I'm attracted to men,
but somewhat fraught for a lot of transmen. And I
kind of was just waiting for someone else to make
the film, and then in twenty nineteen, I finally was like, Okay,
I guess it's going to be me. And I don't
(07:37):
make films to prove a point or with a predetermined thesis.
It's really emerges out of dialogue with other people and
from my community.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
The doc begins with a quote from Lou Sullivan, an
author and activist and for those who don't know, one
of the first very visible transmen to come out as gay.
And the quote that opens a film is our best
weapon in coping with our situation is our imagination? Do
you think imagination plays in our conceptions around gender and sexuality.
Speaker 6 (08:05):
It's maybe the most central role our imagination, and not
just around gender and sexuality, but for everyone who is
marginalized in this culture, who is looking for a better
or different version of the one we're currently attempting to survive.
Imagination is critical, and if you don't have a robust imagination,
(08:30):
you're not going to have a lot of fun with
either your gender or your sexuality. I think that's why
to me and so many other people who know about him,
Lou Sullivan's so. I mean, he's a revolutionary. Every time
I think about certain parts of his life and what
he did and the things he said, and how bold
he was, I get just like I get kind of
(08:50):
overwhelmed to think about what it was like to be
an out, gay trans man in the nineteen seventies. It's
hard enough now, and I just think about what Lou
went through and how he he didn't stop no matter
how many people told him he couldn't exist, or he
(09:11):
couldn't do what he wanted to do or be who
he wanted to be. He didn't take no for an answer.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
Yeah, I really love those archival interviews within the frame
narrative were so moving and like really helped frame the interviews. Earlier,
you were talking about how for some of the folks
you interviewed, realizing their attraction to men was a bit fraught.
I'm curious how many people did you interview who felt
at least a little embarrassed about admitting to themselves or
their friends that they wanted to have sex with men.
Speaker 6 (09:36):
I mean, honestly, almost all of them were, you know,
experienced some period of either embarrassment, shame, disappointment. There's so
many other interviews that didn't end up in the film,
but one of them in particular was like a non binary,
trans masculine person who is literally afraid to take testosterone
(09:58):
because they're afraid it will quote unquote make them get
and they desperately do not want to be attracted to men.
They're very pleased with their attraction to women, and they
really are afraid of that attraction. It's not even the attraction,
but it's the sort of social political aspects of it.
(10:19):
Hashtag not all gay men, but there's a lot of
misogyny still deep in the game mel community and it's
you know, very dick focused, and it's still really working
on accepting trans men. So you know, I understand people's
fears and anxiety as I had my own for sure.
Deep ambivalence is about attractions. In some ways, it's not
(10:42):
that different than assist person coming out as gay. Right,
whether coming out as lesbian or as a gay man,
or as queer or whatever, we all have to fight
our individual demons around that, and so I just think
this is no different, though maybe a little bit more
confusing in some ways.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
I want to talk a little bit about why you
chose the way you made the film, and what I
mean by that is, like, there's this narrative that's happening,
but then you're also splicing it with this documentary, and
like that was so impactful for me because they both
helped move the story along, and the way that you
wove them together so seamlessly was really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Can you talk to me about that process.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
I mean, in some ways you answered the question right.
It's that both modes of storytelling tell a story in
a different way, and they impact us differently. One might
be more intellectual, one might be more emotional, one might
be more sensual. Trying to sort of tell this complex story,
especially if we go back to your question earlier about
imagination that like these fantasy sequences, these sort of fever
(11:45):
dreams in the bath house, moving between the bath house
and the archive, but it wouldn't have been as compelling
to be done as a kind of straightforward doc. Trans
and queer content deserve trans and queer form. Otherwise you're
sticking around peg in a square hole or whatever that's saying.
Speaker 8 (12:00):
Otherwise it just becomes becomes a straight story or a
straight narrative with trans and queer characters, and so we
have to tell our stories differently.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I was out last night with my partner who is
trans masculine, and his friend who is no binary trans masculine,
and we were at like a mixed queer and straight
sports bar, and one of them was like, I actually
prefer venues like this to the cat katakat gay bars.
They're like, I can't deal with the yes, Mama queen
bars because sometimes I do feel a bit alienated there.
(12:32):
So I'm curious about how you've maybe seen queer spaces,
specifically gay bars, sort of change and what you'd maybe
like to see change or for folks to keep in
mind in these spaces to be more trans inclusive, you know.
Speaker 6 (12:45):
Thinking about when I was first sort of coming out
as trans in the early two thousands in New York
City and going to gay bars and having ninety nine
percent of the time really awful experiences. I would be
about to go home with someone or you know, sort
of hooking up with someone in a corner or just
(13:05):
chatting with someone or whatever, and then I have to
disclose that I'm trans, and all of a sudden, I'm she.
All of a sudden, I'm disgusting. All of a sudden,
like the whole mood changes. That's not my experience anymore.
I would notice a real shift, or starting around ten
years ago, of like I would go to Chicago or
San Francisco or somewhere else, like can I open up
(13:25):
a hookup app? And all of a sudden, it was
like people were interested, not it was more interest than
rather than what the fuck are you? Or why are
you on here? Or just like nasty comments or even
when it's not nasty comments, just ignorant comments. I think
that that's the biggest shift. Does one that some people
(13:46):
at least know in the gay male community, No transmen
exist now, I think most it's not confusing anymore. The
issue I've had in some of those kinds of spaces,
and I think this still persists, is there's really different
culture in gay mal culture are than there is and
say like queer women's culture about like bodies and consent
(14:06):
and touch. So I would walk into a gay bar
and someone would like go to grab my dick, and
then it's like literally without saying hi, you know, like
there's no it's like the boundaries are not quite there,
and the like consent forward culture isn't quite there. And
there's some times where that really works and it's hot,
and other times where it feels really dangerous and feels
(14:27):
like I'm not going to go into this space because
I don't want to get groped tonight, or I don't
want to have to cover conversation after you try to
put your hand down my pants or whatever. It is.
Almost every single time I talk to assist gay man
and there's like that in a sexual context, there's the
assumption that I'm a bottom because I'm a transman, and
for me, that doesn't happen to be true. And that's
(14:49):
my biggest block in relationships sexual relationships with gay man?
Is that assuming that all transmn are bottoms and then
going again back to this imagination thing when I'm like, no,
I'm not a bottom, then it's like, well I don't
understand how that could possibly work. And I'm like, well,
if you can't imagine, like if that's how like you know,
(15:11):
sad your imagination is, we're not going to have fun
sex anyway, regardless of who's on top or was on
the bottom, Like, so we're do it.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Was like, we have the technology, Like there's nothing more
exciting than when a partner comes over and brings out
a bag of dicks right.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
From you.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
I'm like, that's the kind of accommodation I could never
get who with a cis man?
Speaker 5 (15:32):
Right?
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Yeah, there are some days I'm willing to take more
than I and than others, and like having that option
is always wonderful.
Speaker 6 (15:39):
Yes, we're like live transformers.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I've seen people put that in their bios now, putting
transformer in their bio. What do you think started the
shift that you mentioned about ten years ago?
Speaker 6 (15:54):
A couple of things, one more transmen being out and
just so there being more numbers. I do think also
as even though these hookup apps can also be sites
of a lot of violence and you know, misogyny, transphobia, racism,
all the things we all know. They became the place
where the only place I was sort of willing to
engage with CIS men because I could just have it out.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
I'm out.
Speaker 6 (16:18):
I don't have to disclose halfway through the conversation or
halfway through a makeout or whatever it is. It was
just there and I'd rather just if you're going to
talk to me, you know. And then there's been a huge,
I think media explosion around trans folks in general, certainly
more about trans women or transfemininity than trans masculinity, but
(16:40):
trans masculinity in the last like I would say, three years,
has suddenly gotten way more attention and visibility, you know,
which also cuts both ways. But yeah, so I think
it's a confluence of things. And I think probably my
guess is that CIS men are also starting to you know,
(17:00):
are over the last decade having more relationships sexual, romantic, whatever,
with trans men telling their friends that we exist, that
we're fun, that we're you know, whatever it might be.
So I think, you know, it's like a little bit
of word of mouth to spreading in the community and
just getting more kind of knowledge and experience.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
I will say we got we got quite quite hot
and bothered after watching the documentary. I know, we really
fell in love with this sort of bath house through line,
didn't we that?
Speaker 1 (17:25):
I loved it.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Yeah, I love a bath house, and so anytime there's
one portrayed for me, I'm like, let's do that. And
like New York doesn't really have any bathhouses anymore, so
I'm like longing for that bathhouse experience.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
That was not part of my initial kind of conception
of the film, but it emerged out of the interviews
I did with the trans guys, and I was personally
very surprised to hear about how many of them had
had like really positive, transformative experiences in gay bath houses,
and that it was really an experience where they came
(18:00):
to understand their their bodies on a spectrum right, and
that in some ways their bodies didn't feel that different
than other than guy's bodies, and it was a place
where they experienced a lot more acceptance than say in
some like online spaces or other kind of bars or whatever.
Speaker 5 (18:21):
I mean.
Speaker 6 (18:21):
I think bathostos are just historically such a unique place
which is you know, not to over romanticize them and
to say they're without problem, because of course that's not true,
but they can be. I think these really interesting places
of cross racial, cross cross class, cross generational contact, and
(18:45):
places where people sometimes I think, actually end up in
sexual scenarios or with in sexual relationships with people that
if looking scrolling through an app, they wouldn't have quote
unquote chosen necessarily. But you're in a space and you're
feeling the energy, which is while we all those online
(19:06):
spaces for me are so hard because I'm like, you
might be hot and you might be saying hot things,
but if we get in the same space and the
energy isn't there, yeah, like the sexual energy, like what
are we doing?
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Like now you know it?
Speaker 6 (19:18):
Just yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Well, I mean I love that moment where it's like
there's sort of the awkward chit chat and you can
feel the energy building and you're like, all right, when
when is this going.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
To bubble over?
Speaker 2 (19:30):
When is the green like totally right in a way
that you don't quite get that same excitement speaking with
somebody and then you show up in their ass up
and you're like, oh, well this is hot, but like
I enjoy the flirtation in the build a bit. I
want to be emotionally edged before we hook up.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Yeah, all us talk
about bath houses. I have to know what was your
last experience at a bath house?
Speaker 6 (19:52):
Like, I haven't been to very many, and I haven't
been in a long time actually, So when I was
making the film, at one point, I like set up
a Google voicemail where people could leave their bathouse confessions.
And I just remembered the most amazing story I had heard.
So this transasculine person who had was a gestational parent
(20:16):
and so had just had given birth I don't know,
maybe a year prior, and was chest feeding their child,
so had like milk coming, you know, was producing milk.
Went to bath house, went in, was in this room
like an orgy room, and was surrounded by maybe half
(20:39):
a dozen Cisca men who were undressing them and were
in various modes of you know, we're naked, we're jerking off,
we're having a good time. And they started like lactating
and we're just sort of squirting their milk everywhere, and
(21:01):
everyone was really into it, and it was amazing, and
I had so doubly wanted to film this scene for
the film, but I couldn't. We couldn't get it, get it,
get there. But I had just when they left this message,
like this is the best bathhouse story I have ever heard.
And I just love the image of like a transmasculine
(21:22):
person who's lactating and there's like ciscay men holding their dicks,
jerking off, like living for this moment, Like it's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
You really have one idea of what a bathhouse is
going to be, and it's a different spot every night,
you know what I mean. Like it's like you said,
it's it's places where different journeys and communities intersect in
really fun and surprising ways.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
And it's like, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
If somebody would put like I'm lactating, come drink off
to me lactating, I'm sure a lot of people would
have been like what O.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
But then doing a person seeing a person? Right, they
were like, wait, I love this. That is incredible. That's
so cool.
Speaker 6 (21:58):
You're like, they're like, I like watching bodily fluids come
out of some one's body part, and who would have thought,
but I'm into this body part ejaculating also so here
we go, Here we go.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Everybody in the room is leaking somehow, right, Yeah, I
truly feel like we could sit here and talk to
you for hours. This is fascinating. Where can people see
the film this summer and where can they find you
on social media?
Speaker 6 (22:23):
Jules Roskam Films and then desire linesfilm dot com is
our website. I hope to see you guys at are
screening sometime soon.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
All right, when we come back, we'll be getting tips
and tricks from both CIS and trans gay men to
have better and hotter interactions and sex.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Our next guest is a leather Daddy, a musician and
the host of the kink Punks podcast, where he and
his co host August provide holistic, ethical, kink aware, pleasure
focused sex ad for trans masculine and adjacent people.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
He is one of the organizers of transferno, Y's first
trans mask centered sex part.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Please welcome Santos.
Speaker 2 (23:01):
Jay Santos, I wanted to kick us off by talking
a little bit about an article you wrote for the
publication Them in February this year.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
It was great.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
This is an article about the what you call the
complicated reality of being trans mask on apps. What are
your experiences in this realm and what prompted you to
write this piece.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
My experiences on the apps have a lot to do
with my experience, right, so, like as in, I've been
in this life for almost twenty years, and I kind
of at this point kind of know how to handle
myself and I don't settle. So that's pretty much how
I navigate these things. And that has a lot to
(23:40):
do with the kind of education that I want to
put out there, because if I can help folks trust
their gut and trust themselves, you know, we can all
mitigate like a little bit of harm and also like
really promote a lot more pleasure for other people. Sometimes
folks will be crude and people will be like, oh,
so you're a woman, I want to fuck your pussy
or whatever, and it's just like it feels really irrelevant
(24:02):
to me. First off, No, a lot of like transmand
and transpasculine people who aren't super savvy don't realize that
if somebody's really pushy on the apps, they're going to
be ten times pushy or in.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Bed, which is terrifying.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Yeah, yeah, totally, But you know, thankfully there there are
you know, good like good things do happen. I've met
some wonderful subs, some wonderful play partners for some people
that's like played out for several years. It's just like
lots of really nice chemistry, you know, and some of
the chemistry is like led to deeper relationships and some
(24:40):
of the chemistry has just led to reliable hookups every
once in a while.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
We talked about not settling.
Speaker 3 (24:47):
What was the conversation you have with yourself where you
were just like, I'm not going to settle, and this
is what settling looks like.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
Before I learned how to cruise, I had different partners.
I kind of learned through them that you know, the
more you ask for what you want, the more you
get what you want. And it wasn't until I was
about thirty five I'm forty three now that I was
able to consistently ask for what I want. And still
it's a little bit of a struggle, you know, and
taking up space just you know, we're not encouraged to
(25:13):
take up space in general as human beings, but really
like giving yourself permission to take up space and giving
yourself permission to ask for what you want. I mean,
that's kind of in my mind, one of the main
things is like entitlement in cruising. You know, there's a
(25:33):
lot of entitlement to touch in shared spaces, and there's
a lot of entitlement to ask. But then those of
us who care a little more, I think, don't always
feel that entitlement. So I think that like giving yourself
that equal entitlement helps you know not to settle. Also,
I feel like I have settled when I feel like
(25:55):
I can't do better, or like I'm impatient or whatever.
And you know, I've just learned a certain amount of
patients because a lot of times when I settle, I
don't get what I want.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
Anyway, No, same, And I think this idea of like
accepting that you can be entitled is revolutionary for me.
Speaker 5 (26:14):
Yeah, because like, as a.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Black queer person, even in the cruising space, I've never
felt like.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
I could be entitled to anything.
Speaker 3 (26:22):
Yeah, And so giving myself permission to have that entitlement,
I'm running with that.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Yeah. I mean, if we could all be as entitled
as a mediocre white man, that.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Wi ha oh, So send those I think one of
the most powerful parts of this article is where you
discuss your body and kind of have this moment of
affirmation explaining that your body doesn't need to meet anyone
else's standards, right part of this deciding not to settle.
Did engaging with people on apps make it harder to
realize that you don't need to meet anyone else's standards,
(26:53):
or did it in some roundabout way help you make
this realization.
Speaker 5 (26:57):
One of the things about being on the app apps
is the the absolute crudeness, right, which is honestly part
of why we're there for it.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Right.
Speaker 5 (27:07):
Also, I think rejection is just data, you know, right,
And it's not even about you, like it's it's it's
how other people perceive you from their background, et cetera.
Getting rejected a lot and trying to acquiesce to other
people's needs or et cetera. Like just it doesn't it
(27:31):
doesn't get you far. And if you hit that wall
enough times, you know you kind of you're just like, wait,
what fuck it? Like what do I want? I feel
like that's an important point to reach.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
I'm curious how do things differ for you when you
get to the in person cruising scenario versus the apps.
Speaker 5 (27:46):
I mean, I started out in person cruising at Glory
Holes because of the anonymity. It's really basic. But the
first time I heard suck that dick boy, I was
just like, this is this is perfect, this is music
to my ears. That affirmation and that curiosity led me
to start going to sex parties eventually. So there's kind
(28:11):
of this Spidey sense where you're like, that guy is
looking at me, and if I look back at him,
he's going to look back at me again, which means
I should probably talk to him. And if you just
talk to somebody like that, you know, you end up
in lots of fun trouble if you want to be.
Getting a handle on that, and just understanding that sex
(28:32):
is available, you know, makes things like sex parties and
such a lot easier. Before I really started transition, it
was hard for me to relate to other people because
I didn't really understand the vector from which my personality
was going to. So it's kind of like, if I'm
this spectral entity who like doesn't really understand where I
(28:55):
fit within gender, how can I interact with other people.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Authentically?
Speaker 5 (29:01):
Yes, exactly exactly. Getting myself right with myself kind of
helped me figure out how to cruise.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
What advice do you have for folks who do want
to start cruising based on what cruising spaces look like today, I.
Speaker 5 (29:14):
Would say one of my first things is some folks
are coming from Saffik backgrounds, and some folks are just
like not necessarily coming from any particular queer background in general,
and they're not used to being touched without being approached
about it first, being aware that that is a frequent
occurrence in gay male spaces, and to be to be
(29:37):
ready for that. You can always just push somebody's hand away,
And that goes back to the entitlement, right. That goes
back to asking for what you want. Another thing is
get your vaccines, take your meds. You know, risk means
that it can happen to you, and you know there
isn't any STI that is not treatable, and it's it's
(29:58):
just a thing that happens and it's totally fine. I
really think it's important to value yourself. A lot of
people are afraid to go into gay spaces because they
are afraid of not being affirmed and afraid of people gatekeeping.
And if people are gatekeeping, they're not hot period period.
(30:25):
If somebody is rejecting you, they're helping you dodge a bullet.
Because it wouldn't have been hot with them anyway.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Yes, what advice would you give to a ciscay man
who's looking to look up a transascular men?
Speaker 5 (30:34):
Trans Men are men, right, and which seems obvious, but
it's it's it bears repeating. And also not all transvasculine
people are men, right, but those of us who do
identify as men are men. Early in transition, I felt
like I was, you know, a girl becoming a man,
(30:55):
you know, And then later on I was like, wait
a minute, I was I you know, corrected and corrected
and corrected or coursed and course to coursed every single
day growing up. I didn't actually get to expand into
this boyhood that was right there, right in front of me.
And then I understood, you know, after you know, a
long time that I was boil along. So it feels
(31:19):
very much for me like less of going from one
gender to another and more like awakening from gas lighting
and settling into the thing that I always was. Everybody's
got a different experience of their gender. But if we
think of it in that way or other ways that
are presented to us, you know, we can really take
(31:42):
the heart that yes, transmit are men. So that's the
place that I always want to start with that. So
another thing is be curious, ask people, ask people what
they like, what they're into. You can ask people, how
do you like to be touched? You can you know,
if you want to be subby, you can say, put
(32:03):
my hands where you want them, or put my dick
where you want it or whatever. Just being open to
lots of possibilities and speaking of possibilities, transmend and transpasculine
people may have a variety of different procedures and hormones,
et cetera that that our bodies may be, you know,
(32:23):
that we may use on our bodies. So I there's
there's this, uh, there's this idea that you know, trans
men are these like merman, you know, like we've we've
we've got we've got, uh, you know, our our top
chop and then we've got like, you know, our our
pussy's there, you know. And and also that's not a
(32:46):
word that everybody loves. But yeah, so so yeah, I
mean there's lots of different, lots of different possibilities. Lots
of people get lower surgery, lots of people don't get
top surgery. Some people have hormones, some people get hormones,
some people don't. So there's lots of different possibilities in
terms of that and just keeping an open mind, you know.
(33:08):
And you know, lots of people have sex and lots
of different ways, and some of it relates to gender,
and some of it relates to just different preferences in general,
and also abilities, like lots of people with disabilities have
to have sex in different ways. Other things would be
wash your damn hands, wash your damn dick. If I'm
(33:29):
you know, at a play party or at a sex party,
you know, I want to make sure that a dick
hasn't been in an ass before it's going inside of me.
That's very important. It's really important to be aware that
like t is not birth control, to stopsterone is not
birth control?
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yes, yeah, so what are.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
You doing for that? Are you having that conversation? Do
you have a vasectomy if you're just gonna like go raw.
So there's lots of different things to think about. And
also some people do need to use condoms because they're
you know, delicate ecosystems will react badly to new stimuli,
you know, or like new new things going into them.
(34:08):
But not everybody uses their front hole. And let's see
in terms of in terms of oral anything that is
presented to you as a dick, treat it like a dick.
So that could be fingers, that could be a dildo,
that could be like a phallus on the person's body.
Treat it like a dick. Don't treat it like a clitterius,
(34:30):
and you know you'll probably be fine. Check in with
the person. Whenever I have sex with a guy who
hasn't had sex with a trans guy before, like a
sis guy who hasn't had sex with a trans guy before,
I'm usually like, you fucked a guy, right, And they're like, yeah,
Like you'll be fine. Just treat me like a guy. Yeah, exactly,
(34:53):
You've got it, you know. So you know, if you're
going from back to front, I'm gonna stop you. But
you know, there are little things like that, little little
you know, things to be aware of, but overall, just
like if you are having sex with a man, just
treat him like a man and it'll be fine.
Speaker 3 (35:10):
So I have to ask, as a person who kind
of struggles with this myself, how do you deal with
chasers and fetishizing right?
Speaker 1 (35:17):
How do you navigate that?
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Because I find myself really interested in having connections with transmit.
But I don't I worry if I'm fetishizing or if
I'm chasing, right, and how do I what's that line?
And how do you navigate that? Yeah, that's really.
Speaker 5 (35:34):
Cool, lots of answers. If I feel like I am
the only thing standing between some guy and my genitals,
that's what being chased feels like, you know, like it's
not about me, it's about what he wants, what he expects. Right,
(35:54):
So if that's not the vibe that you're coming from,
you're probably not chasing.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
Okay, So like I just needed to hear it from you.
Speaker 5 (36:04):
Yeah, so I I have every confidence that that you'll
be fine.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
We can't put it to the test soon. Don't worry.
There will be parties coming up. We got you.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
Frankly, for chasers, like actual chasers, I feel like there's
there is a very select, narrow slot, no pun intending I.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Was going to say where.
Speaker 5 (36:27):
Now, Yeah, so a very a very select, like very
narrow place where that where that fits if you feel
good taking out the adoration from that, which is complicated
because it comes with a lot of ship that people
don't want to hear, right, so basically like I don't
want to hear about my body. I don't want to
(36:47):
hear about what you want really because it's like fucked up.
But the experience of just taking off your clothes and
having somebody go, oh my god, that's amazing, you know,
like just that kind of thing. They're not marveling in you,
They're marvel in their fetish If you can pause wanting
to be seen, you know, if it's not important to
you to be seen by someone and just to take
(37:10):
take everything at face value, then that works, you know,
Like I've I've definitely had lots of lots and lots
of sex that was like that, but also like if
that's not something you can do, it's not gonna be fun. No.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
I appreciate you delineating that because I think, as you said,
it's like there, and I mean, I think this can
apply to so many sexual scenarios. There's sort of a
fine line between adoration, affirmation, and fetishizing, and I think
the way you phrased that difference is like such a
clear delineation that I think folks can walk away with
and be like, oh yeah, am I.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
Hoogab with a person?
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Or am I hoogay with a person because I'm fetishizing
a body part, their colors, their skin, their gender identity,
their genitals.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
Like that's yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:50):
Yeah. Fetishizing is often you transplanting your your idea of
what you want onto a person. So I mean, if
you want to if we're talking about you right for
right now, if you want to connect with somebody and
that's hot for you, that's not fetishizing.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
Yeah. No, I just want to connect with these people totally,
that's yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:13):
Yeah, easy.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
They turned me on in ways I can't describe.
Speaker 2 (38:16):
Okay, So we've been talking a lot about these spaces,
and I know that you are one of the folks
involved with organizing Transferno, which is sort of a companion
party to Inferno, which is a very trans inclusive event.
But I'm curious what drew you to become one of
the organizers at Transferno and why why that event, what
it means to you.
Speaker 5 (38:36):
Chris Gray started it with Adam Barron, So I just
want to be very specific about giving Chris Gray his props.
I would go to every single like Inferno event or
lots of different Inferno events, and Adam is just so
so kind and welcoming, and he invited me to participate
(38:57):
in Transferno back when it was called play House, and
this was in twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. I think yeah
and yeah. It was a really it was a really
hot party. And at the time the difference between Transferno
and Inferno was all the trans guys were getting their
dick sucked, whereas at Inferno nobody wanted to be seen
(39:18):
doing that. But things are very different now.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
Oh yeah they are. Yeah, who's like, why?
Speaker 5 (39:22):
No? No, No, very different now. Inferno is is such
a wonderful space with I think it's pretty singular in
that there are lots of like the The idea is
no fucking shade, right, which really promotes a lot of community.
In my opinion, The idea for Transferno as it is
now is that if we center one group of people,
(39:45):
it doesn't mean that we exclude others. It means that
we can uplift these people and give them lots of
attention and then everybody can come join and celebrate and
do whatever it is that they do.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
What has been your hottest experience? While I transfer no.
Speaker 5 (39:58):
Hottest, I don't know about hottest. I always have great,
amazing times. There was one of my favorites was there
was this big bear in the sling and I love
a bear, and I was just like, all right, well
I'll go up to him. And he was into it,
and so, you know, his legs were up, he was
(40:19):
in the sling. So I started playing with his ass
and you know, I just felt his asshole just soften
around my fingers. And the more I gave him, the
more he could take. And I was like, I'm not
going to push you if you don't want it, but
I bet you can. I bet you can take my fist.
And and so he just he produced a backpack that
(40:41):
had jaylube, so he was ready. You bet right, he
was super ready. Like I I got all the way
in there. It was amazing. It was really super hot,
and it was it was the location of the sling
was somewhere where lots of people were watching. I'm not
someone I know the one.
Speaker 1 (41:00):
It's one.
Speaker 5 (41:07):
Thing.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Yeah, I love that thing has truly accommodated all of Brooklyn.
Speaker 1 (41:12):
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (41:13):
Sentos, thank you so much for joining us. We also
got to thank Jules Rosscom for joining us remotely. What
a wonderful interview.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Where can folks find you online.
Speaker 5 (41:22):
I have a podcast called King Punk's k I n
K p U n X. Folks can find Transferreno through
the Inferno Party, which has a substack n y C
Inferno dot substack dot com.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Perfect Cool, Thank You.
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Sniffy's Cruising Confessions is a production from Outspoken podcast Network
from iHeart Podcasts. It's directed by Adam Barron, produced by
Stevie Williams and Cameron Femino, and executive producers by Eli Martins.
Cruising Confessions is presented by Snippy's, the ultimate map based
cruising platform for gay by and.
Speaker 1 (41:52):
Curious people ready to cruz. Check out the map at
Sniffy's dot com.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
And follow Snippy's on socials at Sniffy's appo.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
What put Your put your poots to?
Speaker 3 (42:02):
Y mm hmm,
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