April 29, 2025 • 45 mins
Melissa Ziobro began her career as a civilian historian, archivist, and curator for the US Army in 2004 prior to returning to her alma mater, Monmouth University, to teach full-time. She has taught over a dozen different courses, including Intro to Public History; Oral History; Museums and Archives Management Basics; NJ History; and the Vietnam War. In August of 2023, she became curator of the University's Bruce Springsteen Archives & Center for American Music, after having worked with the Center for many years in her faculty role (to include curating the Center’s first traveling exhibit, Springsteen: His Hometown, with the Monmouth County Historical Association in 2019). Her most recent publications include Fort Monmouth: The US Army’s House of Magic (2024) and The Battlin' Bastards of Bravo: Bravo Company, 1/506th, 101st Airborne, in Vietnam and Beyond (2025).
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
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Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hi, and welcome to an awesome, another awesome episode of
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(01:02):
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(01:45):
or you know the Red Circle. So go check out
those books and hopefully we can get our guest here. Okay,
Melissa's book in our book club. But I would like
to introduce Melissa Zibro and your name zero Bro, Zero Bro,
zero Bro. We're gonna say it the rock star. Melissa,
(02:08):
Welcome to our show.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
You just said the rock star. I like that you
introduced yourself as your glorious host. I think I'm just
gonna walk into the.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Classroom every time now, I'd be like, you're glorious, Professor.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I'm here.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
We all know why we're here. You know what I'm saying, Professor, Like,
it's like when you go to the gym. You know
you're there to put your effort in and the coach
is like, we all know it hurts. That's why you're here.
You're here to go to the gym and go into class. Professor, Yes,
that is like the gym for sure, you know, and
that's cool that you're also a professor. And so let
(02:44):
me just introduce Melissa a little bit and humbly say that.
Melissa is the director of Public History at Monmouth University
in West Long Branch, New Jersey, where her classes include
the Vietnam War. She also serves as the curator of
the Campus of Bruce Bringsteen Archives and Center for American Music.
(03:06):
She is the author of Fort Monmouth, the US Army's
House of Magic, and a former trustee of the New
Jersey Vietnam Veterans Memorial Foundation in Home Deel, New Jersey. Okay,
very cool. I'm sure there's a lot more going on
with you than just what's on that little bio. Okay,
so let me ask you something. What is the US
Army's House of Magic? And for what is the House
(03:28):
of Magic?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah, So I started my career as a historian twenty
one years ago in the Historical office for the United
States Army Communications Electronics Command at a military base here
in Central Jersey known as Fort Mammoth. So Fort Mammoth
started as a signal core camp during World War One,
(03:52):
and it was open all the way through twenty eleven,
when it was supporting operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. So
the Army ultimately closed Fort Mammoth during a base realignment
enclosure round. But the innovations that came out of the
base not only saved lives on the battlefield, change the
way we all live from early satellite technology, early computing technology,
(04:16):
early cell phone technologies. You know cost code, yep, absolutely,
you know, early radios. Some of the first things they
were testing during the World War One era were air
to ground radio. So and then even the Army closed
that base. But Netflix is getting ready to move in,
and since there's all this attention on the site, I
did this book with brook Casemate Press and wanted.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
To make sure everybody remembers all the cool things that
happened there.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
And then and then is that how you got hooked
on the story of the Vietnam So what we're going
to talk about is, you know, Battling Bastards of Bravo,
and I think it's the first of the five oh sixth.
Oh yeah, you have the bo okay, the battle and
Bassards of Bravo, the first of the five oh six
the one hundred and first airborne in Vietnam, And I mean,
(05:05):
you know, the stories that you were able to capture
were either from them or from their buddies that they
were willing to talk to because such a shell shocking
traumatic experience that no one else would ever understand. I
could only say that, like no one else would ever
understand what it's like to be in the same trenches
with each other seeing whatever hell that they quote is
on earth, which is there in Vietnam, right, And so
(05:27):
you know, tell us what inspired you to Yeah, so I.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Started my careers.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
I just noted it's a military historian, and you know,
then moved into teaching full time before becoming a curator
the Springsteen Archives, which is a whole nother story. But
you know, I am just so passionate about documenting and
then sharing the experiences of our veterans and active duty
(05:53):
military personnel. I don't have to tell you less than
one percent of the population serves today. I can walk
in a classroom and students who they certainly haven't served
in many of them don't even have a veteran in
their family.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Right.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
So, no matter what my day job is, it's always
going to be very important to me that I look
for ways to documented, to share veterans stories. I've done,
you know, several hundred oral history interviews over the course
of my career, most of them with active duty military
or veterans. So with this book specifically, I just happened
to meet the gentleman who wrote the forward to the book, Tarlton.
(06:32):
You know, we met in a totally unrelated project, totally
unrelated project that I was working on, and he's like, hey,
I like you you should write a book about my unit.
You know, I just I can't say no to a
good to a good story, can't say no to a
vet and so it kind of just went from there.
(06:52):
This particular unit, so Bravo Company started.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Doing reunions a few years ago.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
And out of the unions came what they call the Journal.
It's like this internal history that they wrote for themselves,
painstakingly researched. I mean, it's really beautiful. So they had that,
but that was just something that was internal.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
You know. Jim wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Something that would get these stories before the widest possible audience,
and so you know, he connected with me. I brought
it to Casemate, who had just published my Fort Mammoth book.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
And we went from there and that the world I
tell the guys.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Said like, and I'll tell anybody who asks me, I'm
just their secretary. Right, they had their story. It's their stories, right,
they don't need me meddling in them.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
I was there to collect the stories, to lightly edit
the stories, and then to deal with the publisher.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
But it's all of them. And the stories are just.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Harrowing and inspiring and sometimes funny, you know, it's it's
all the guys.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Know. Your story of their stories is your story, right, okay.
And so the way that you put them together and
you know, present that does become some ownership. You have
to have some you know connection to you know, what
they talk about, you know, in their book, the and
the and the tales that they have to tell, like
you know, being eighteen years old and just saying that
(08:20):
this is hell on earth.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
You know, and it's incredible because I deal with eighteen
year olds every day.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Right, And could they say and they're like, oh.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
My god, I have two papers do crime and how
I manage? And that's okay? Like stress is relative.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
There are stress in civilian life, you know here in
New Jersey. But to see that juxtaposition, right, of my
students and then to think what we asked of the
men that we.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Send to Vietnam is really mind boggling.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
And I think it's so very important that those who
don't have any experience with the military understand what you're
truly asking of someone when you ask.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Them to deploy to go to war.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
I think it's important that everybody have an understanding of
what we're actually asking of our men and women in uniform.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, and I love that, And you know, the book
should bring that out because it's just going to be exactly,
you know, what the guys went through is Vietnam? And
is this something that you know, I meet a lot
of authors, okay, a lot of cool people that write
a lot of cool books and dig deep and everything,
you know, and some of them turn into TV series,
some of them turn into some type of a movie.
(09:30):
You know. Is that something that you guys are looking
at to help expand on their story and just put
it out there. Is this something that's being talked about?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
I just said Netflix was coming to town.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Right, Maybe I.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Don't know it.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Well, we love Netflix. Let's just say we love Netflix. Okay,
thanks for buying Powder Mountain in Utah. Netflix, good job.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
It would be completely up to the guys.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Again, I want them to feel ownership over this project.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
At all times, I worked with them.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
So you know, there's twenty six stories told and then
one gold Star family. I worked with them every step
of the way, so they got to see the edits
and make sure they were comfortable. They got to see
the photos that were being used like that was There's
this term shared authority that we use in the public
history sector, and it was very, very important to me
(10:21):
that I not exploit them in any way throughout this
process because I wanted to get a book done. It's
not about me getting a bookedne It's about them.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
And so you know, if somebody.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Comes up with an author or an offer to turn
this into a series or something, it'll be up to
all of these guys to decide collectively.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And then they would probably say to their secretary, very kindly,
Secretary Secretary, Melissa, let me read something here real quick.
Let's see if this makes some sense to my listeners.
So to describe a little bit about this book. Most
are either written by unit members or told by zebro.
If the veteran was uncomfortable speaking to an outsider, he
was interviewed by an other unit member. You know, there
(11:02):
was a little editing just to save some face in
the book for most stories. But however, the individual voice
of each veteran is clearly heard, and these are quotes
and praises about your book already. This here says the
battle ambassads of B Company, first Battalion, five or six
Infantry Regiment, Hunter, and first Airborne Division fought daily against
a well trained and determined enemy during their tours in
(11:23):
Vietnam nineteen sixty eight through seventy one. Before the war,
these men were brothers, sons, sweethearts. I love that part, husbands, fathers.
Some were athletes, some musicians, some were just out of
high school, some in established careers already. You know, I'm
sure my listener out there could pick one of those
if they've served and find themselves in one of those brackets.
(11:44):
You know, there is no monolithic battling bastard. But when
they joined the hundred and first Airborne Division, one of
the most highly decorated divisions in the United States Army
in Vietnam, they united, fighting for each other and fighting
to return home safely. Perc it was difficult to put
their experiences behind them as bravo veteran Terry Taylor recalled,
(12:05):
I learned at the age of eighteen that you don't
have to die to go to hell. Vietnam was hell
on Earth, and yet despite the obstacles, many of these
men built successful lives post war. Decades after returning from
the war, when the men were ready to cautiously revisit
their experiences, the bastards starting started state size reunions, which
is what you were touching base on. You know, they
(12:25):
started getting together, you started collecting them their stories, and
you know, from these reunions came the wish to share
their stories with the world, to honor, to educate, and
to inspire. The result is this book, written from interviews
and diligent archival research, in which the surviving battle and
bastards tell their stories of combat in their own words
and honor those who sacrificed for their country and their unit.
(12:48):
And so, Melissa, do you know, are these surviving members
are they being brought into like current one hundred and
first Airborne interview like meetings, and like you know, Pep
talks to these young men that are in the Hunter first.
You know that might be a good thing for maybe
some of them to be pulled into like, you know,
we need older experience to teach younger, right.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
I love that, and I would say, to the best
of my knowledge and working with these guys over the
past two plus years, most of them have been very
very quiet about their service up to this point. And
that's not unusual, right with veterans. A lot of times
you want to come home and you want to put
it behind you, and you want to get on with
(13:28):
your lives, and so I don't think many of the
gentlemen have been involved in that type of mentoring thus far.
I think they might be getting to the point where
they're ready, though several of them have said that this
book is the first time they've told their stories to anybody,
even to family. But now they're getting to, you know,
(13:50):
an older stage in life, and they're recognizing that if
they don't tell these stories, who will, and that there
are lessons that can be learned from these stories. I
think often when I do oral history interviews, potential narrators
might be a little hesitant because they feel like it's
self promoting, right, and they'll always say, I didn't do
(14:11):
anything special, you don't want to talk to me, you
don't need to be And I say, no, you did
simply by serving, by deploying, right, no one else can
tell your story. And so you know, they're starting to
open up for the first time. Several of the guys
have agreed to do interviews like this if there's any
call for it.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So I'm really proud of them. It's brave of them to.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
Revisit these things, even if it is fifty years later.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I mean, really, you know, my dad was in Vietnam
as a seventeen year old in the Navy in sixty eight, right,
so he enlisted right out of high school, went in,
Actually he enlisted in high school, went through summer boot
camp in the Navy, went back to high school, graduated,
then shipped right off to Via or they would say, Vietnam,
(15:01):
you know, Vietnam. However, you good, whatever side of the
country you're from, Vietnam. Vietnam. But you know, my dad,
you know, he passed away. Agent orange was a big factor.
A lot of these guys and guys that were serving
deployed all came in contact with agent orange and all
of these different types of pesticides, and you know burn pits.
(15:24):
Let's talk about the burn pits that they are burning
over there right like you know, and the benefits that
these guys still deserve, if they haven't got them already,
they should still and not make them wait any longer. See,
that's the game is like for benefits and paperwork, it's like, oh,
we'll just put it six more months. Well, in six months,
Bill's going to be seventy, you know, but he's available today.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
So like not to mention, Bill also has very likely
passed some of the impacts of that exposure down to
his kids.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
And protecting his grandkids.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
This is something I see that absolutely haunts Vietnam veterans
that not only did it happen to them, that they
may have passed the ill effects down. And so again
when we talk about lessons learned, I think the more
we can educate the general public about things that have
happened to our military, the more likely they will be
(16:16):
to care to support support for veterans, to invest in veterans.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Let alone to fight over like some muddy hill taking
out somebody that they never met, never got a chance
to have dinner with. Just told this is the bad guy.
The other side says, this is the bad guy. Both
sides are the good guys to themselves. Yeah, you know,
and it was such an entrenched position. Everybody had pungy
sticks and secret little like stabby things coming out of trees.
(16:43):
You know. The Vietcong and the whole Vietnamese, they were
very They knew that area, they knew their land. They
knew how to use just wood, shave it, point it,
pee on it, pungee stick, you know.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
And they were free to fight the war anyway that
they grow up, right.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
The rules of engagement for the battle and bassaards and
others who were deployed were constantly changing, and they had
to try to navigate those and it's a very complex situation.
I think, if you know, I walk into a class
full of undergrads, they come in with a lot of
preconceived notions about the Vietnam War and about Vietnam soldiers
and Vietnam veterans, and it's like, you have no idea,
(17:27):
You really have no idea until you hear it from.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
The men themselves.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
And so that's why I just think oral history is
the best medium for storytelling, because you know, you don't
need me as your interpreter.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Your story comes best from you.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
You know, I can't remember what documentary it was, but
it was where they you know, brought both sides together.
They're older after the war, and they just the you know,
the enemies of each other, hugged themselves. They would have
just been at each other in the war. But you know,
thirty years later, I can't remember what the documentary was.
It was really like kind of it's very moving again
(18:06):
throughout history.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
I mean, they did that as far back as like
with Confederate and Union veterans of the Civil War.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
I mean, we do see that again and again, and
it's like, in the moment.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
You're not even fighting for a cause, You're fighting for
the man standing next to you. And yes, you've decided
that the people on the other side are the enemy,
but I mean, are they really your enemy? They talk
several of the narrators in the book talk about.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
How, you know, douring.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Training, the Vietnamese were dehumanized, right, and that was something
that was a tool you had to dehumanize the enemy
in order to be able to go out there and
try to accomplish your goals. But that's not something that's
internalized in these veterans. It's something they were taught, they
were told to do and they're trying to survive.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
I just think of Hamburger Hill. There's a movie that
was made called Hamburger Hill, and they're like, I tell you,
you know, it's specifically right. It's just like so brutal.
You know, why why do they hate that? They tell
you why that that they hate that movie? Is it
just too much?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
It's too much that it's not accurate for them? Of course,
you know, you understand that they wouldn't be with it.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
You know, my dad back in the eighties, UH would
never let me see Platoon. I was a little kid,
and I was always obsessed with dad's career being a
Green Beret, you know, just in like the eighties. But he,
I guess his friends had went and seen it, and
they just walked out of it, you know, from that
movie because it had just brought back a flood of
things that they just didn't want to have to, you
know remember, or it was just too much you know,
(19:39):
put into it. And so I mean, that's there, you know,
I've seen it now, Dad, Now what's kind of guy
they're spoken with.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
It's more that they're like indignant that they find historical
inaccuracies in the film, which is you know, obviously.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
The norm with any Hollywood spectacle, but.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Uh yeah, so so I just think that if anybody
is looking for a good read Father's Day is coming up,
it is.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
A good read for a good cause because they've notned.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
I am donating my royalties, not that there's much to
be made for a no name author like me, but
I am donating my royalties to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Fund because I don't want to make any money off
of again their stories or the pain.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
That they're discussing here.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
So you know, whatever money we raise from the book,
we'll go back to veterans causes.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
That's very generous of you to capture their stories and
to bind them together and to put them out there
and like they're archived and you know, immortalized as long
as we're around on this earth, you know, publications and
this conversation, you know, and just talking about it just
brings more awareness because maybe somebody doesn't listen to it
this this next week or three weeks from now. But
(20:56):
the cool thing about our episode here is whoever's listening
to us right now is being made aware of, you know,
the battle and bastards of Bravo and yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
These stories repeat themselves again and again and again. Right,
we happen to tell twenty seven stories here, and.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
We're just scratching the surface. You know.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
I discuss in the introductory remarks to the book, like
why this unit, why not every unit? Like that would
be my goal. Look at the work, for example, of
the Library of Congress Veterans History Project. They actively try
to capture oral histories with as many veterans as humanly possible,
because every single one of those stories is.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Important, is unique, and should be told. So, you know,
if anybody has.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
A love of veterans and wants to do some interviewing,
get out there, find your local veterans group, and do
the next book about them.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Because I guess what you're saying is war has DNA
and each one of them is a piece of that
DNA that can complete the whole position or the whole
concept of what we just witnessed or lived through. And
if one of them doesn't get that story out there,
then so someone's DNA can't connect to that DNA. So
it's like they need to tell their story. I don't know,
I'm just seeing it in this really kind of like
(22:13):
you know, and.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
It's like, whose story gets to be told? It shouldn't
just be your four.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Star general, right right? But once who are.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Going to have like mass market huge biographies written about them?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Or who are going the crystal did right for them? Right? Exactly?
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Okay, they're fine, not to take anything away from them,
but these grunts, as.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
The guys would call themselves, their stories are just as
if not more important in my eyes because they were
the ones on the ground actually having.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
To execute these missions that they're being tasked.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
With and live there and deal with it, and you know,
and every single thing that goes along with you know,
what do we hear for again?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
You know?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Why why is this hat? Why are we still here?
Has this been resolved back home? Who's wagging this dog?
Speaker 4 (23:05):
And you know, does the four star general know what
it's like to be in the field drinking the water
that still tastes like you know, fuel because mountain tanks properly?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
You know, do they know what it's.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Like to be in the field and scraping the mold
off the brownies your girlfriend sent you because you're just
still so happy to eat the brownies and they're like,
and I could go on and on with these examples.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
But I think that's eat the.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Mold, man, go with it. Eat the brownies. Just eat
the mold, you baby, Yeah, just eat it. Just eat
the whole thing. She sent you brownies from the States
in the sixties. Man, just eat them.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
So, you know, I just I think there's great value there.
And so from you know, wearing like my academic hat, yes,
there's great value there. It's an educational tool I'm going
to teach students.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
You're going to make them.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Care about the war because when you talk about, you know,
some fifty eight thousand killed, that's and I'm you almost
can't wrap your head around. But when you talk about
them having to carry their deceased friends off the battlefield,
that makes an impact on you, right the way statistic
might not. So from an academic perspective, the book is
an incredible educational tool. It's just interesting. Maybe I'm biased, right, Brad,
(24:18):
but it's it's so engrossing. And I think it's an
easy read too, because we've got it broken up. Each
chapter is dedicated to particular soldier, so you can pick
it up, you can put it down, you know. I
really I just think that your audience in particular should
really really enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I would think so. And they like to read because
we have a book club, and that's soft rep dot
com forward slash book hyphen club. Get a book, read
a book, move the muscle of your brain, you know
what I mean, and you can read. You can read
the Battle andmbastards. You can just find that. When does that?
When is that? Is it out right? Now? Are we
it is?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Yes? It isn't. So mat started shipping the pre orders
a few weeks ago and then I think it was
April fifteenth was when it went live, and it's already
sold down at Barnes and Noble.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
It's been selling really really well.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
So we're very very excited about, you know, spreading the
word well good.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
And then that gives you an opportunity for Casemate and
for anyone else in the world to say, hey, you
can type, you can write, you can put it all together,
and it sells out. That's really awesome and I'm really
happy because I have a lot of authors that come
on and hope for that kind of you know success.
You want to know a trick that I heard from
an author, I want to say it was Brad thor
Or somebody Jack Carr. They said that they take their
(25:37):
book with them to the airport. Okay, if it has
a upiece, if it has a UPC number on the
back of it, okay. And if it's not in already
the gift shop at the airport, they just put it.
They take it to the register and they have them
scan it and it says out of stock, and then
you buy it from them and it's the last one,
and then they order more to put back on the shelf.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
This is a fascinating trick. I gotta go to the
airport on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Actually, you see, So if you have your book and
if as up see, oh I'd like to get this
Battle Ambastards book. You put it right down and see
if it scans. And if it scans like, oh it's
out of stock, well you just pay for it. Deal
with it. Just buy it back, Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Cut this part out.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It's not shady. Oh no, no, no, I'm just playing.
I'm just playing. I'm just playing. No, no, no no.
I hope it's at the airport. I hope it's already
sold out. You'll see what I'm saying. There's no shady.
You want to know its shady. Vietnam was shady. Okay,
that's what's shady. You want to know, it was shady
having the battle Ambassaards have to go to Vietnam to
fight for what? For each other because they are sent there.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
That it is so interesting that you say for what,
Because when I talk with veterans, whether it's the guys
in this book or you're the upsitors that I've been
blessed to know through my work with the New Jersey
Vietnam Museum, whatever, they still have very different emotions about
the war, different opinions about the war. There still are
(27:07):
veterans who feel like they went there and they had
a good mission and they were going to stop the
spread of communism, and they feel that that was a
valid mission and they should have done it, and they
regret that their hands were tied by the chain of
command and the politicians. And then they're you know, at
the other end of the spectrum are veterans who say
that whole thing was you know, blogney.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
And we should not have been sent there and it
was ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
But they still have a very broad range of complex
feelings about the war. Like you know, you said earlier,
there's no one monolithic Vietnam veteran.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
No. No. And to this day, I've had the guys
coming into my shops here in Salt Lake City who
are veterans from Vietnam. They're old, they're bringing grandkids in
and stuff like that. So we'll always welcome them. I'll say, hey, well,
welcome home. Yeah, and they look at me and they
just kind of have a moment. I'm like, no, I
mean from like, you know, non bro, I don't know
if you've ever been welcomed home, but let me welcome
you home. And it's like twenty twenty four, you know,
(28:07):
And so you know, back then, it wasn't so you know,
wave the flag. It was like, you know, be mad
and like there was a lot of emotion in America
where they're like, bring them home is what they wanted,
you know, stop the war, bring the soldiers home. It's
not so much that they were what they call them
baby killers, because in war, it happens. That happens. Okay,
(28:28):
that happens. All war has that you know, unfortunate moniker
on it, and so you know it's inevitable. Look at
Gaza happening right now, it's completely like you said, that's
a number that if your students aren't understanding what fifty
thousand people killed is. That's who's been killed there already,
you know, compared to Vietnam respectively, is like, you know,
(28:49):
what they're doing with the Israeli and Gaza war right
now is just fifty thousand people have been killed. Vietnam
fifty thousand people. But Vietnam was how long nineteen fifty four?
Really we got into it?
Speaker 3 (29:04):
You want to start counting?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yea French? The French were like, come over here, help us.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Food.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, you know, I mean, like, but really like why
we got into it as the US was to help
the French because the Vietnamese were battling the Japanese. Am
I wrong on that? So?
Speaker 4 (29:23):
I mean this is something I The book starts with
just a very very brief introduction to the war.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
I mean, because there's just books of pomp books right
about Vietnam War.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
But I really wanted just a very brief introduction, particularly
for students who didn't have a familiarity. But one of
the things that I discussed is how there's this initial
lack of understanding.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Of the long history of Vietnam.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
The Vietnamese people had been occupied going back centuries.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
So is it the Chinese?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Then the French? Is it? Then the Japanese, and then
it's the French again.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
And so there was this generations long refusal or refusal
to be dominated or desire for independence that I think
American planners completely discounted. And so there's this great saying,
(30:20):
I'm going to batch it now, but it's like about.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
To forget it. I'm going to forget It's about a
tiger and an elephant, and who's going to get tired first?
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Well, who gets tired first, the tiger of the elephant.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Well, it depends, right.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
And so this was the idea with the North Vietnamese
all along was they're not going to get tired of it.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
They're going to outweait the situation. And they knew the Americans,
with all of their money.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
And you know, they're huge population, they would eventually get
tired of it. They would lose the will to fight.
That was predicted very early on, and ultimately, you.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Know, that's that's what happens.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Another thing I just mentioned is you talked about them
coming home, and yes, that phrase welcome home is so
important to the guys. A lot of them had different
experiences coming home, I found depending where they lived. So
if they were in the South or the Midwest, some
of them did get that kind of traditional welcome home
with the banners and such. It was more like on
the coasts and in the urban areas where they found
(31:25):
more strife. So that that was an interesting thing that
popped into my mind that I uncovered as I was
doing the interviews.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
That it was kind of like different different areas had
different take on the situation in the war. It's crazy. Yeah,
my dad said that, you know, he attributed the fact
of their nutrition was one factor why the US was
able to gain you know that he felt like he fought,
you know, like they fought well and et cetera until
they were told not to fight otherwise and so and
(31:54):
so he just attributed that they were able to overcome,
you know, the enemy based on the diet because they
meat supplied and the US had like, you know, that
kind of ration, whereas you know, the Vietnamese would eat
just really a rice diet and like a vegetable diet.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
You know, we're scavenge.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
That is something that comes up in the book.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
They would have their interpreters and guides, you know, the
guys will sit down and they'll get out their mrs
while their guides and interpreters are looking for what vegetation
they can eat, you know, what insights they can eat.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
So again that's their understanding of the land. It's it's very.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Different when you've been picked up from Cincinnati and dropped
in the middle of Vietnam and told good luck.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah, really, you know. And so when it comes to stamina, no,
that just to keep the fight going, you know, it's internally,
it's just got to be fed. And so I mean,
you know, like you said, each each veteran has a
different take on their time in Vietnam. You know, for example,
like the story I have, I keep going back to
my dad. But all my guests that listen and everybody listens, no,
I love them so much, big part of my life.
(33:01):
He said that the first thing he noticed when he
got into Vietnam, when he knew he was in Vietnam,
was he got off the boat for the Navy to
go off this long dock to get onto the pier,
and there was all these sitting Indian style, he said,
black pajamas, five hundred or so just sitting and there
was two Marines with sixties just sitting over them, and
(33:21):
they were captured Vietcong, you know, combatants that were just
right there at the shore. That's when he knew he
was in Vietnam. I'm sure these guys all have a
story that's so similar to like when I knew I
knew I was in Vietnam. Win.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
I always ask.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
Them about their first impressions, and it's always the heat
and the smell the first thing that kind of hit them,
and that's really implanted in their memory. You know, some
of them talk about, you know, you're getting off the
plane and you're getting on these buses and the windows
are blacked out because you know you're immediately a target
(33:57):
from the minute you hit the ground or a target,
and trying to acclimate yourself to that, you know, having
come from the safety of the States, is another thing
that comes up a lot.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
And you know what a great question I think is like,
you know, these guys they get trained to do air assault. Okay,
these are airborne, one hundred and first airborne. They have
different equipment. They have like collapsible stocks on their rifles
so that they are airborne. So does they get snagged
in their shoot lines? They have just a little bit
of a difference on their equipment versus a regular infantry guy.
They're trained to deploy out of aircraft into hostile territory,
(34:35):
not Vietnam. Yeah, you know. And it's the same thing
with a friend of mine who's an Arctic soldier who
got deployed to Afghanistan. He's like, yeah, no, nothing like
you think, rad But when it was cold, I knew
how to stay warm. But other than that, it wasn't
like snow leopards and you know, the whole what you
think they trained for. They're just like, I can handle
the cold. But in Vietnam, these guys are like, I
(34:56):
guess they're supposed to be able to hit you from anywhere,
right the airborne. If they need to go airborne, that's
what they do. If not, boom huh, yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
I mean airborne becomes that they're being transported by the
helicopters and they're you know, in and out. But most
of the guys who are covered in this book just
spend their time marching through the jungle. They're on their feet,
just marching through the jungle and then apparently, you know,
occasionally you get picked up and you know, the chopper
(35:28):
takes you back to the rear, and if they were lucky,
they got to go to the beach for a day,
you know, and and relax the beach and have a
warm beer.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
And you know, Vietnam, that was it.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
But you get a day and then you know, you're
back out in the jungle for weeks on end. So
it's that unrelenting pace that I think takes as much
a mental as a physical toll on them. The men
talk a lot about their leadership. I know, you know,
(36:01):
when you're thinking about Vietnam broadly, you think of you know,
instances of.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Fracture signed or the officers getting fragged or whatever.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
These men, for the most part, speak glowingly of their leadership,
and I think that was really unique and is perhaps
what kept them bonded for so long.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
They just believed in who was taking them in because
they also went and so they're like, let's go, well,
you know, Melissa's our boss, and Melissa's taught us this
whole time, and Melissa's getting off with us off aircraft
and you know, you may be the lieutenant, Melissa, but
we're going to follow what lieutenant says to make sure
we all come back because she's trying to make sure
we're coming back. I'm using you as an example, by
(36:44):
the way.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yeah, no, they particularly there's this one officer who's call
sign is Viking.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
I don't want to give too much away.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Everybody's gotta read the book, right, but they all adore Viking.
That is something that comes across and the reason is
that they trust him and he is never going to
ask them to do anything that he himself won't do.
And so he's a great character who he you know,
we didn't get to interview him for the story, but
(37:16):
he's ever present in the book because almost every man
talks about how much they loved and trusted him, and
I think that's a great case study in how to
be an effective leader and what it really means to
display leadership under the most trying of circumstances.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
It's incredible, Okay, battling bastards, it's out right now and
I would have to imagine, Okay, I read in your
you know breakdown that you also are at the Bruce
Springsteen music you know establishment there. Sorry, it's not right
in front of him. I'm going off of what I
just read, and I think it's so cool, so are
you still involved in Bruce Springsteen's You know, the music
(37:55):
isn't a library.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
This book is just like a side project, like I
said I do.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
I start my career as a historian working for the
Army and Department of the Army Civilian Historian, and then
when the base I worked I closed. I came to
this mom University and was teaching full time for many years.
In my role as a faculty member. We have this
thing that lives at mom University, the Bruce Springsteen Archives
and Center for American Music. We are Bruce Springstein's official repository.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
So I would teach like a.
Speaker 4 (38:24):
I would teach a museum's class, or I would teach
an archives class, and we would do projects with this
Springsteen Archives. So they are getting ready to build a
thirty thousand square foot music museum here on our campus,
so they pulled me over to serve as the curator
and help, you know, get the museum ready to open.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
So I was in the middle of doing this book
when I moved into this new slot. So it was
a little.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Crazy to juggle and to get the book done on time.
But I was not going to disappoint these guys. So
we still got the book done, and I'm always finding
interesting ways to do military history in my current role. So,
for example, Bruce Springsteen's first drummer, this teenage kid, Bart Haynes.
(39:09):
He leaves Bruce Springsteen's first band, the Castiles Uh to
enlist in the Marines, and he's killed in Vietnam. So
I just did a biography an article of Bart Haynes.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
I mean, this incredible story.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
And then you know Bart has long been like a
footnote in Bruce's life. And you know, I was able
to interview Bart's sister and a medic who was there
the night he was killed to to flesh out that story.
Or like Bruce, you know, Bruce he avoids the draft,
but he had close friends like Bart, another guy called
(39:43):
who were killed in Vietnam, So he understood both the
threat of the draft and what it was to see
young Ben go off and be killed. And he winds
up from very early in his career supporting Vietnam veterans causes.
So there's always always a link there with the military history.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
For me, born in the USA. Okay, Bruce is an
American icon, all right, he should be nurtured, And like
you're doing that with you know, preserving everything about it
about Bruce and all he's done. And you know, Max
Weinberg is a drummer for him and such a great
a great musician, and you know, packing.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
Max's drums up. And you said born in the USA.
So we have this traveling exhibit right now. It's called
Music America and it's like one hundred and fifty objects
that tell the story of American music history. And in
the exhibit we have some of Max's drums, we have
the whole Born in the USA outfit. Uh so, yeah,
we have addressed keeping with the Vietnam theme, I have
addressed that Nancy Sinatra wore entertaining the troops in Vietnam.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
That is so cool. I am totally staff on right
now because of Max Weinberg's drums, you know. Yeah, as
a drummer, right, so you're gonna know, you know, Max
has the skills, right, Yeah, love it.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
A picture of maxis.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Drums that is so awesome. Yeah, Bruce, you're the man too. Bro.
I'm not trying to take away from you with Max Weinberg,
but geez, you know what a great what you know
the East Street Band? Okay, right, yeah, you.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
Know I always tell people that it was a difficult
decision for me to leave my full time faculty role
in come service the curator here, but they expect.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
Like fifty thousand people to come to the museum the
first year.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, And I think music is such.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
I'm always looking for accessible ways to get people excited
about history.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
So I think oral history, you know, telling people's stories in.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
Their own words, is a way to get people excited
about history. But music is another way to get people
excited because music is so accessible and like, everybody likes music.
So if you can use music history to get people
excited about the past more broadly, then I think that's
a good thing.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
You're awesome, that's awesome. And we've totally got.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Off on a tangent here. What is happening here?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
No, this is I told you. I told you at
the beginning. I think you'll like the way it goes.
It's totally awesome, right, And so, you know, I love
how you juggle yourself and you're powerful and as a professor,
you know, as a woman in America and on this planet,
and you know, don't let anyone ever take anything away
from you, and just you just keep doing what you
(42:09):
have to do, and you keep your head down and
you just keep moving forward and gaining ground. And I'm
sure that all of your battle and bastard bros that
are still around would agree with me, okay, And I'm
sure that you're in the right position to be a
curator for the rock and roll because a rock and
roll okay. And I mean, I've really been taking up
a lot of your time. We've been talking for about
(42:31):
forty five minutes. Has just been flying by. But I
know that you're very busy, and I know that there's
a lot of folks that are wanting to have you
come onto their show. And I'm glad and flattered that
you chose us as well. And I want to say
thanks to Daniel for arranging everything right, So thanks Daniel.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Did you get enough? Were you supposed to go for
a full hour?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Well, I mean, if you want to keep going, we
got it. We're not even done yet. No, it's totally cool.
I mean I told you the secret about the airport.
You didn't want to hear that, You're like, I was like,
that's a thirty minute, you know, tutorial on how to
get your book in the airport. And then I was like,
you know, the battle embastards. What more is there? Go
get your book? You know, Well, there you go.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
That's a perfect way to end.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
Yeah, book people, because it's a good read for a
good cause, and these guys deserve to feel your love
and support now as they reach.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
You know, the end.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yeah, we're losing.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
These guys at a very fast clip, and so it's
so important that we talk about their stories, that we
learn lessons from them, and that we show them our
love and appreciation while we still can.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
I will say this to you before we go. If
you know that one of them would like to come
on and talk to me, all right, and you say, hey,
I think that you would be a good fit with
rad On Soft Rep. You send me one of those
battlem bastards. Gay, Yeah, and I will put them on.
You could be on too if they want to have
you as just like a comfort zone. Whatever the case is,
so be it. You know now that we've become friends, right,
(43:56):
you're like, Oh, Rat's fine, don't worry about it. Come on,
I've bet yeah, he's vetted. He's totally five, totally five,
born to the USA. All right, no problem there. Well,
Well with that said, Melissa, thank you so much, for
taking time to be on the show, and to my
listener and to those that are just joining us for
the first time. You know, I hope you stick around
and again check out the merch store at soft reap
(44:18):
dot com. Find us on Instagram at soft rep. And
thanks again to Brandon Webb who runs the place, the
Soft Rep, and all of us out there like Callum
and Chris and you know April. Thanks for everybody behind
the scenes. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for
you guys believing in me to run this ship. So
thanks so much again, and on behalf of everybody that
(44:39):
was on my show and myself and Bruce the Man.
What's up? I say peace use them.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Listening to a self red radio
Lute for us. If it doesn't work, you're just not
using enough. You're listening to Software Radio, Special Operations, Military
Nails and straight talk with the guys in the community.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hi, and welcome to an awesome, another awesome episode of
soft Reap Radio. I am your glorious host, Rad And
for those of you that are just joining us, well, welcome,
congratulations on finding us. We are on all major platforms
including softwap dot com. And for those of you who
have just always emailed me general roles, sergeants, privates, everybody
(01:02):
that's around the world, people who are like, hey, Rad,
you really keep going. Thank you for continually to be
on the show and listen and keep the fireplace going by,
you know, picking up the merch at our merch store right,
softwap dot com forward slash merch. We got merch. It's
all got soft rep on it. There's new stuff coming out.
You can get Brandon Webb's logo on your chest and
walking around like a superman. Go ahead and buy that
(01:23):
all right, and then tag us in it. We'd love
to see it. And also one of the most important
things you can do is work out your mind by
reading a book. And if you go to soft reap
dot com Forward slash book Hyphened Club. You can join
our book club where these guys like Brandon Webb and
others have curated a really cool library of books that
you would probably enjoy to read, including Steal Fear, you know,
(01:45):
or you know the Red Circle. So go check out
those books and hopefully we can get our guest here. Okay,
Melissa's book in our book club. But I would like
to introduce Melissa Zibro and your name zero Bro, Zero Bro,
zero Bro. We're gonna say it the rock star. Melissa,
(02:08):
Welcome to our show.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
You just said the rock star. I like that you
introduced yourself as your glorious host. I think I'm just
gonna walk into the.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Classroom every time now, I'd be like, you're glorious, Professor.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
I'm here.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
We all know why we're here. You know what I'm saying, Professor, Like,
it's like when you go to the gym. You know
you're there to put your effort in and the coach
is like, we all know it hurts. That's why you're here.
You're here to go to the gym and go into class. Professor, Yes,
that is like the gym for sure, you know, and
that's cool that you're also a professor. And so let
(02:44):
me just introduce Melissa a little bit and humbly say that.
Melissa is the director of Public History at Monmouth University
in West Long Branch, New Jersey, where her classes include
the Vietnam War. She also serves as the curator of
the Campus of Bruce Bringsteen Archives and Center for American Music.
(03:06):
She is the author of Fort Monmouth, the US Army's
House of Magic, and a former trustee of the New
Jersey Vietnam Veterans Memorial Foundation in Home Deel, New Jersey. Okay,
very cool. I'm sure there's a lot more going on
with you than just what's on that little bio. Okay,
so let me ask you something. What is the US
Army's House of Magic? And for what is the House
(03:28):
of Magic?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Yeah, So I started my career as a historian twenty
one years ago in the Historical office for the United
States Army Communications Electronics Command at a military base here
in Central Jersey known as Fort Mammoth. So Fort Mammoth
started as a signal core camp during World War One,
(03:52):
and it was open all the way through twenty eleven,
when it was supporting operations in Iraq and Afghanistan. So
the Army ultimately closed Fort Mammoth during a base realignment
enclosure round. But the innovations that came out of the
base not only saved lives on the battlefield, change the
way we all live from early satellite technology, early computing technology,
(04:16):
early cell phone technologies. You know cost code, yep, absolutely,
you know, early radios. Some of the first things they
were testing during the World War One era were air
to ground radio. So and then even the Army closed
that base. But Netflix is getting ready to move in,
and since there's all this attention on the site, I
did this book with brook Casemate Press and wanted.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
To make sure everybody remembers all the cool things that
happened there.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
And then and then is that how you got hooked
on the story of the Vietnam So what we're going
to talk about is, you know, Battling Bastards of Bravo,
and I think it's the first of the five oh sixth.
Oh yeah, you have the bo okay, the battle and
Bassards of Bravo, the first of the five oh six
the one hundred and first airborne in Vietnam, And I mean,
(05:05):
you know, the stories that you were able to capture
were either from them or from their buddies that they
were willing to talk to because such a shell shocking
traumatic experience that no one else would ever understand. I
could only say that, like no one else would ever
understand what it's like to be in the same trenches
with each other seeing whatever hell that they quote is
on earth, which is there in Vietnam, right, And so
(05:27):
you know, tell us what inspired you to Yeah, so I.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Started my careers.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
I just noted it's a military historian, and you know,
then moved into teaching full time before becoming a curator
the Springsteen Archives, which is a whole nother story. But
you know, I am just so passionate about documenting and
then sharing the experiences of our veterans and active duty
(05:53):
military personnel. I don't have to tell you less than
one percent of the population serves today. I can walk
in a classroom and students who they certainly haven't served
in many of them don't even have a veteran in
their family.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Right.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
So, no matter what my day job is, it's always
going to be very important to me that I look
for ways to documented, to share veterans stories. I've done,
you know, several hundred oral history interviews over the course
of my career, most of them with active duty military
or veterans. So with this book specifically, I just happened
to meet the gentleman who wrote the forward to the book, Tarlton.
(06:32):
You know, we met in a totally unrelated project, totally
unrelated project that I was working on, and he's like, hey,
I like you you should write a book about my unit.
You know, I just I can't say no to a
good to a good story, can't say no to a
vet and so it kind of just went from there.
(06:52):
This particular unit, so Bravo Company started.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
Doing reunions a few years ago.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
And out of the unions came what they call the Journal.
It's like this internal history that they wrote for themselves,
painstakingly researched. I mean, it's really beautiful. So they had that,
but that was just something that was internal.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
You know. Jim wanted to do.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Something that would get these stories before the widest possible audience,
and so you know, he connected with me. I brought
it to Casemate, who had just published my Fort Mammoth book.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
And we went from there and that the world I
tell the guys.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
Said like, and I'll tell anybody who asks me, I'm
just their secretary. Right, they had their story. It's their stories, right,
they don't need me meddling in them.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
I was there to collect the stories, to lightly edit
the stories, and then to deal with the publisher.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Right.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
But it's all of them. And the stories are just.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Harrowing and inspiring and sometimes funny, you know, it's it's
all the guys.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
Know. Your story of their stories is your story, right, okay.
And so the way that you put them together and
you know, present that does become some ownership. You have
to have some you know connection to you know, what
they talk about, you know, in their book, the and
the and the tales that they have to tell, like
you know, being eighteen years old and just saying that
(08:20):
this is hell on earth.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
You know, and it's incredible because I deal with eighteen
year olds every day.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Right, And could they say and they're like, oh.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
My god, I have two papers do crime and how
I manage? And that's okay? Like stress is relative.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
There are stress in civilian life, you know here in
New Jersey. But to see that juxtaposition, right, of my
students and then to think what we asked of the
men that we.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
Send to Vietnam is really mind boggling.
Speaker 4 (08:48):
And I think it's so very important that those who
don't have any experience with the military understand what you're
truly asking of someone when you ask.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Them to deploy to go to war.
Speaker 4 (09:02):
I think it's important that everybody have an understanding of
what we're actually asking of our men and women in uniform.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Yeah, and I love that, And you know, the book
should bring that out because it's just going to be exactly,
you know, what the guys went through is Vietnam? And
is this something that you know, I meet a lot
of authors, okay, a lot of cool people that write
a lot of cool books and dig deep and everything,
you know, and some of them turn into TV series,
some of them turn into some type of a movie.
(09:30):
You know. Is that something that you guys are looking
at to help expand on their story and just put
it out there. Is this something that's being talked about?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
I just said Netflix was coming to town.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Right, Maybe I.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Don't know it.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Well, we love Netflix. Let's just say we love Netflix. Okay,
thanks for buying Powder Mountain in Utah. Netflix, good job.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
It would be completely up to the guys.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Again, I want them to feel ownership over this project.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
At all times, I worked with them.
Speaker 4 (10:00):
So you know, there's twenty six stories told and then
one gold Star family. I worked with them every step
of the way, so they got to see the edits
and make sure they were comfortable. They got to see
the photos that were being used like that was There's
this term shared authority that we use in the public
history sector, and it was very, very important to me
(10:21):
that I not exploit them in any way throughout this
process because I wanted to get a book done. It's
not about me getting a bookedne It's about them.
Speaker 3 (10:30):
And so you know, if somebody.
Speaker 4 (10:32):
Comes up with an author or an offer to turn
this into a series or something, it'll be up to
all of these guys to decide collectively.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
And then they would probably say to their secretary, very kindly,
Secretary Secretary, Melissa, let me read something here real quick.
Let's see if this makes some sense to my listeners.
So to describe a little bit about this book. Most
are either written by unit members or told by zebro.
If the veteran was uncomfortable speaking to an outsider, he
was interviewed by an other unit member. You know, there
(11:02):
was a little editing just to save some face in
the book for most stories. But however, the individual voice
of each veteran is clearly heard, and these are quotes
and praises about your book already. This here says the
battle ambassads of B Company, first Battalion, five or six
Infantry Regiment, Hunter, and first Airborne Division fought daily against
a well trained and determined enemy during their tours in
(11:23):
Vietnam nineteen sixty eight through seventy one. Before the war,
these men were brothers, sons, sweethearts. I love that part, husbands, fathers.
Some were athletes, some musicians, some were just out of
high school, some in established careers already. You know, I'm
sure my listener out there could pick one of those
if they've served and find themselves in one of those brackets.
(11:44):
You know, there is no monolithic battling bastard. But when
they joined the hundred and first Airborne Division, one of
the most highly decorated divisions in the United States Army
in Vietnam, they united, fighting for each other and fighting
to return home safely. Perc it was difficult to put
their experiences behind them as bravo veteran Terry Taylor recalled,
(12:05):
I learned at the age of eighteen that you don't
have to die to go to hell. Vietnam was hell
on Earth, and yet despite the obstacles, many of these
men built successful lives post war. Decades after returning from
the war, when the men were ready to cautiously revisit
their experiences, the bastards starting started state size reunions, which
is what you were touching base on. You know, they
(12:25):
started getting together, you started collecting them their stories, and
you know, from these reunions came the wish to share
their stories with the world, to honor, to educate, and
to inspire. The result is this book, written from interviews
and diligent archival research, in which the surviving battle and
bastards tell their stories of combat in their own words
and honor those who sacrificed for their country and their unit.
(12:48):
And so, Melissa, do you know, are these surviving members
are they being brought into like current one hundred and
first Airborne interview like meetings, and like you know, Pep
talks to these young men that are in the Hunter first.
You know that might be a good thing for maybe
some of them to be pulled into like, you know,
we need older experience to teach younger, right.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
I love that, and I would say, to the best
of my knowledge and working with these guys over the
past two plus years, most of them have been very
very quiet about their service up to this point. And
that's not unusual, right with veterans. A lot of times
you want to come home and you want to put
it behind you, and you want to get on with
(13:28):
your lives, and so I don't think many of the
gentlemen have been involved in that type of mentoring thus far.
I think they might be getting to the point where
they're ready, though several of them have said that this
book is the first time they've told their stories to anybody,
even to family. But now they're getting to, you know,
(13:50):
an older stage in life, and they're recognizing that if
they don't tell these stories, who will, and that there
are lessons that can be learned from these stories. I
think often when I do oral history interviews, potential narrators
might be a little hesitant because they feel like it's
self promoting, right, and they'll always say, I didn't do
(14:11):
anything special, you don't want to talk to me, you
don't need to be And I say, no, you did
simply by serving, by deploying, right, no one else can
tell your story. And so you know, they're starting to
open up for the first time. Several of the guys
have agreed to do interviews like this if there's any
call for it.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So I'm really proud of them. It's brave of them to.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
Revisit these things, even if it is fifty years later.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
I mean, really, you know, my dad was in Vietnam
as a seventeen year old in the Navy in sixty eight, right,
so he enlisted right out of high school, went in,
Actually he enlisted in high school, went through summer boot
camp in the Navy, went back to high school, graduated,
then shipped right off to Via or they would say, Vietnam,
(15:01):
you know, Vietnam. However, you good, whatever side of the
country you're from, Vietnam. Vietnam. But you know, my dad,
you know, he passed away. Agent orange was a big factor.
A lot of these guys and guys that were serving
deployed all came in contact with agent orange and all
of these different types of pesticides, and you know burn pits.
(15:24):
Let's talk about the burn pits that they are burning
over there right like you know, and the benefits that
these guys still deserve, if they haven't got them already,
they should still and not make them wait any longer. See,
that's the game is like for benefits and paperwork, it's like, oh,
we'll just put it six more months. Well, in six months,
Bill's going to be seventy, you know, but he's available today.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
So like not to mention, Bill also has very likely
passed some of the impacts of that exposure down to
his kids.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
And protecting his grandkids.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
This is something I see that absolutely haunts Vietnam veterans
that not only did it happen to them, that they
may have passed the ill effects down. And so again
when we talk about lessons learned, I think the more
we can educate the general public about things that have
happened to our military, the more likely they will be
(16:16):
to care to support support for veterans, to invest in veterans.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
Let alone to fight over like some muddy hill taking
out somebody that they never met, never got a chance
to have dinner with. Just told this is the bad guy.
The other side says, this is the bad guy. Both
sides are the good guys to themselves. Yeah, you know,
and it was such an entrenched position. Everybody had pungy
sticks and secret little like stabby things coming out of trees.
(16:43):
You know. The Vietcong and the whole Vietnamese, they were
very They knew that area, they knew their land. They
knew how to use just wood, shave it, point it,
pee on it, pungee stick, you know.
Speaker 4 (16:57):
And they were free to fight the war anyway that
they grow up, right.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (17:05):
The rules of engagement for the battle and bassaards and
others who were deployed were constantly changing, and they had
to try to navigate those and it's a very complex situation.
I think, if you know, I walk into a class
full of undergrads, they come in with a lot of
preconceived notions about the Vietnam War and about Vietnam soldiers
and Vietnam veterans, and it's like, you have no idea,
(17:27):
You really have no idea until you hear it from.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
The men themselves.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
And so that's why I just think oral history is
the best medium for storytelling, because you know, you don't
need me as your interpreter.
Speaker 3 (17:42):
Your story comes best from you.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
You know, I can't remember what documentary it was, but
it was where they you know, brought both sides together.
They're older after the war, and they just the you know,
the enemies of each other, hugged themselves. They would have
just been at each other in the war. But you know,
thirty years later, I can't remember what the documentary was.
It was really like kind of it's very moving again
(18:06):
throughout history.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
I mean, they did that as far back as like
with Confederate and Union veterans of the Civil War.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
I mean, we do see that again and again, and
it's like, in the moment.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
You're not even fighting for a cause, You're fighting for
the man standing next to you. And yes, you've decided
that the people on the other side are the enemy,
but I mean, are they really your enemy? They talk
several of the narrators in the book talk about.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
How, you know, douring.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Training, the Vietnamese were dehumanized, right, and that was something
that was a tool you had to dehumanize the enemy
in order to be able to go out there and
try to accomplish your goals. But that's not something that's
internalized in these veterans. It's something they were taught, they
were told to do and they're trying to survive.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
I just think of Hamburger Hill. There's a movie that
was made called Hamburger Hill, and they're like, I tell you,
you know, it's specifically right. It's just like so brutal.
You know, why why do they hate that? They tell
you why that that they hate that movie? Is it
just too much?
Speaker 3 (19:10):
It's too much that it's not accurate for them? Of course,
you know, you understand that they wouldn't be with it.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
You know, my dad back in the eighties, UH would
never let me see Platoon. I was a little kid,
and I was always obsessed with dad's career being a
Green Beret, you know, just in like the eighties. But he,
I guess his friends had went and seen it, and
they just walked out of it, you know, from that
movie because it had just brought back a flood of
things that they just didn't want to have to, you
know remember, or it was just too much you know,
(19:39):
put into it. And so I mean, that's there, you know,
I've seen it now, Dad, Now what's kind of guy
they're spoken with.
Speaker 4 (19:48):
It's more that they're like indignant that they find historical
inaccuracies in the film, which is you know, obviously.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
The norm with any Hollywood spectacle, but.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Uh yeah, so so I just think that if anybody
is looking for a good read Father's Day is coming up,
it is.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
A good read for a good cause because they've notned.
Speaker 4 (20:11):
I am donating my royalties, not that there's much to
be made for a no name author like me, but
I am donating my royalties to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial
Fund because I don't want to make any money off
of again their stories or the pain.
Speaker 3 (20:27):
That they're discussing here.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
So you know, whatever money we raise from the book,
we'll go back to veterans causes.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
That's very generous of you to capture their stories and
to bind them together and to put them out there
and like they're archived and you know, immortalized as long
as we're around on this earth, you know, publications and
this conversation, you know, and just talking about it just
brings more awareness because maybe somebody doesn't listen to it
this this next week or three weeks from now. But
(20:56):
the cool thing about our episode here is whoever's listening
to us right now is being made aware of, you know,
the battle and bastards of Bravo and yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
These stories repeat themselves again and again and again. Right,
we happen to tell twenty seven stories here, and.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
We're just scratching the surface. You know.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
I discuss in the introductory remarks to the book, like
why this unit, why not every unit? Like that would
be my goal. Look at the work, for example, of
the Library of Congress Veterans History Project. They actively try
to capture oral histories with as many veterans as humanly possible,
because every single one of those stories is.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
Important, is unique, and should be told. So, you know,
if anybody has.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
A love of veterans and wants to do some interviewing,
get out there, find your local veterans group, and do
the next book about them.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Because I guess what you're saying is war has DNA
and each one of them is a piece of that
DNA that can complete the whole position or the whole
concept of what we just witnessed or lived through. And
if one of them doesn't get that story out there,
then so someone's DNA can't connect to that DNA. So
it's like they need to tell their story. I don't know,
I'm just seeing it in this really kind of like
(22:13):
you know, and.
Speaker 4 (22:14):
It's like, whose story gets to be told? It shouldn't
just be your four.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Star general, right right? But once who are.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
Going to have like mass market huge biographies written about them?
Speaker 2 (22:26):
Or who are going the crystal did right for them? Right? Exactly?
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Okay, they're fine, not to take anything away from them,
but these grunts, as.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
The guys would call themselves, their stories are just as
if not more important in my eyes because they were
the ones on the ground actually having.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
To execute these missions that they're being tasked.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
With and live there and deal with it, and you know,
and every single thing that goes along with you know,
what do we hear for again?
Speaker 3 (22:56):
You know?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Why why is this hat? Why are we still here?
Has this been resolved back home? Who's wagging this dog?
Speaker 4 (23:05):
And you know, does the four star general know what
it's like to be in the field drinking the water
that still tastes like you know, fuel because mountain tanks properly?
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (23:16):
You know, do they know what it's.
Speaker 4 (23:18):
Like to be in the field and scraping the mold
off the brownies your girlfriend sent you because you're just
still so happy to eat the brownies and they're like,
and I could go on and on with these examples.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
But I think that's eat the.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Mold, man, go with it. Eat the brownies. Just eat
the mold, you baby, Yeah, just eat it. Just eat
the whole thing. She sent you brownies from the States
in the sixties. Man, just eat them.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
So, you know, I just I think there's great value there.
And so from you know, wearing like my academic hat, yes,
there's great value there. It's an educational tool I'm going
to teach students.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
You're going to make them.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Care about the war because when you talk about, you know,
some fifty eight thousand killed, that's and I'm you almost
can't wrap your head around. But when you talk about
them having to carry their deceased friends off the battlefield,
that makes an impact on you, right the way statistic
might not. So from an academic perspective, the book is
an incredible educational tool. It's just interesting. Maybe I'm biased, right, Brad,
(24:18):
but it's it's so engrossing. And I think it's an
easy read too, because we've got it broken up. Each
chapter is dedicated to particular soldier, so you can pick
it up, you can put it down, you know. I
really I just think that your audience in particular should
really really enjoy it.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
I would think so. And they like to read because
we have a book club, and that's soft rep dot
com forward slash book hyphen club. Get a book, read
a book, move the muscle of your brain, you know
what I mean, and you can read. You can read
the Battle andmbastards. You can just find that. When does that?
When is that? Is it out right? Now? Are we
it is?
Speaker 3 (24:58):
Yes? It isn't. So mat started shipping the pre orders
a few weeks ago and then I think it was
April fifteenth was when it went live, and it's already
sold down at Barnes and Noble.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (25:08):
It's been selling really really well.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
So we're very very excited about, you know, spreading the
word well good.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
And then that gives you an opportunity for Casemate and
for anyone else in the world to say, hey, you
can type, you can write, you can put it all together,
and it sells out. That's really awesome and I'm really
happy because I have a lot of authors that come
on and hope for that kind of you know success.
You want to know a trick that I heard from
an author, I want to say it was Brad thor
Or somebody Jack Carr. They said that they take their
(25:37):
book with them to the airport. Okay, if it has
a upiece, if it has a UPC number on the
back of it, okay. And if it's not in already
the gift shop at the airport, they just put it.
They take it to the register and they have them
scan it and it says out of stock, and then
you buy it from them and it's the last one,
and then they order more to put back on the shelf.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
This is a fascinating trick. I gotta go to the
airport on Sunday.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Actually, you see, So if you have your book and
if as up see, oh I'd like to get this
Battle Ambastards book. You put it right down and see
if it scans. And if it scans like, oh it's
out of stock, well you just pay for it. Deal
with it. Just buy it back, Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Cut this part out.
Speaker 2 (26:21):
It's not shady. Oh no, no, no, I'm just playing.
I'm just playing. I'm just playing. No, no, no no.
I hope it's at the airport. I hope it's already
sold out. You'll see what I'm saying. There's no shady.
You want to know its shady. Vietnam was shady. Okay,
that's what's shady. You want to know, it was shady
having the battle Ambassaards have to go to Vietnam to
fight for what? For each other because they are sent there.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
That it is so interesting that you say for what,
Because when I talk with veterans, whether it's the guys
in this book or you're the upsitors that I've been
blessed to know through my work with the New Jersey
Vietnam Museum, whatever, they still have very different emotions about
the war, different opinions about the war. There still are
(27:07):
veterans who feel like they went there and they had
a good mission and they were going to stop the
spread of communism, and they feel that that was a
valid mission and they should have done it, and they
regret that their hands were tied by the chain of
command and the politicians. And then they're you know, at
the other end of the spectrum are veterans who say
that whole thing was you know, blogney.
Speaker 3 (27:29):
And we should not have been sent there and it
was ridiculous.
Speaker 4 (27:32):
But they still have a very broad range of complex
feelings about the war. Like you know, you said earlier,
there's no one monolithic Vietnam veteran.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
No. No. And to this day, I've had the guys
coming into my shops here in Salt Lake City who
are veterans from Vietnam. They're old, they're bringing grandkids in
and stuff like that. So we'll always welcome them. I'll say, hey, well,
welcome home. Yeah, and they look at me and they
just kind of have a moment. I'm like, no, I
mean from like, you know, non bro, I don't know
if you've ever been welcomed home, but let me welcome
you home. And it's like twenty twenty four, you know,
(28:07):
And so you know, back then, it wasn't so you know,
wave the flag. It was like, you know, be mad
and like there was a lot of emotion in America
where they're like, bring them home is what they wanted,
you know, stop the war, bring the soldiers home. It's
not so much that they were what they call them
baby killers, because in war, it happens. That happens. Okay,
(28:28):
that happens. All war has that you know, unfortunate moniker
on it, and so you know it's inevitable. Look at
Gaza happening right now, it's completely like you said, that's
a number that if your students aren't understanding what fifty
thousand people killed is. That's who's been killed there already,
you know, compared to Vietnam respectively, is like, you know,
(28:49):
what they're doing with the Israeli and Gaza war right
now is just fifty thousand people have been killed. Vietnam
fifty thousand people. But Vietnam was how long nineteen fifty four?
Really we got into it?
Speaker 3 (29:04):
You want to start counting?
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Yea French? The French were like, come over here, help us.
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Food.
Speaker 2 (29:12):
Yeah, you know, I mean, like, but really like why
we got into it as the US was to help
the French because the Vietnamese were battling the Japanese. Am
I wrong on that? So?
Speaker 4 (29:23):
I mean this is something I The book starts with
just a very very brief introduction to the war.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
I mean, because there's just books of pomp books right
about Vietnam War.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
But I really wanted just a very brief introduction, particularly
for students who didn't have a familiarity. But one of
the things that I discussed is how there's this initial
lack of understanding.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Of the long history of Vietnam.
Speaker 4 (29:47):
The Vietnamese people had been occupied going back centuries.
Speaker 3 (29:50):
So is it the Chinese?
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Then the French? Is it? Then the Japanese, and then
it's the French again.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
And so there was this generations long refusal or refusal
to be dominated or desire for independence that I think
American planners completely discounted. And so there's this great saying,
(30:20):
I'm going to batch it now, but it's like about.
Speaker 3 (30:23):
To forget it. I'm going to forget It's about a
tiger and an elephant, and who's going to get tired first?
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Well, who gets tired first, the tiger of the elephant.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Well, it depends, right.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
And so this was the idea with the North Vietnamese
all along was they're not going to get tired of it.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
They're going to outweait the situation. And they knew the Americans,
with all of their money.
Speaker 4 (30:49):
And you know, they're huge population, they would eventually get
tired of it. They would lose the will to fight.
That was predicted very early on, and ultimately, you.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Know, that's that's what happens.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
Another thing I just mentioned is you talked about them
coming home, and yes, that phrase welcome home is so
important to the guys. A lot of them had different
experiences coming home, I found depending where they lived. So
if they were in the South or the Midwest, some
of them did get that kind of traditional welcome home
with the banners and such. It was more like on
the coasts and in the urban areas where they found
(31:25):
more strife. So that that was an interesting thing that
popped into my mind that I uncovered as I was
doing the interviews.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
That it was kind of like different different areas had
different take on the situation in the war. It's crazy. Yeah,
my dad said that, you know, he attributed the fact
of their nutrition was one factor why the US was
able to gain you know that he felt like he fought,
you know, like they fought well and et cetera until
they were told not to fight otherwise and so and
(31:54):
so he just attributed that they were able to overcome,
you know, the enemy based on the diet because they
meat supplied and the US had like, you know, that
kind of ration, whereas you know, the Vietnamese would eat
just really a rice diet and like a vegetable diet.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
You know, we're scavenge.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
That is something that comes up in the book.
Speaker 4 (32:12):
They would have their interpreters and guides, you know, the
guys will sit down and they'll get out their mrs
while their guides and interpreters are looking for what vegetation
they can eat, you know, what insights they can eat.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
So again that's their understanding of the land. It's it's very.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Different when you've been picked up from Cincinnati and dropped
in the middle of Vietnam and told good luck.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
Yeah, really, you know. And so when it comes to stamina, no,
that just to keep the fight going, you know, it's internally,
it's just got to be fed. And so I mean,
you know, like you said, each each veteran has a
different take on their time in Vietnam. You know, for example,
like the story I have, I keep going back to
my dad. But all my guests that listen and everybody listens, no,
I love them so much, big part of my life.
(33:01):
He said that the first thing he noticed when he
got into Vietnam, when he knew he was in Vietnam,
was he got off the boat for the Navy to
go off this long dock to get onto the pier,
and there was all these sitting Indian style, he said,
black pajamas, five hundred or so just sitting and there
was two Marines with sixties just sitting over them, and
(33:21):
they were captured Vietcong, you know, combatants that were just
right there at the shore. That's when he knew he
was in Vietnam. I'm sure these guys all have a
story that's so similar to like when I knew I
knew I was in Vietnam. Win.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
I always ask.
Speaker 4 (33:37):
Them about their first impressions, and it's always the heat
and the smell the first thing that kind of hit them,
and that's really implanted in their memory. You know, some
of them talk about, you know, you're getting off the
plane and you're getting on these buses and the windows
are blacked out because you know you're immediately a target
(33:57):
from the minute you hit the ground or a target,
and trying to acclimate yourself to that, you know, having
come from the safety of the States, is another thing
that comes up a lot.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
And you know what a great question I think is like,
you know, these guys they get trained to do air assault. Okay,
these are airborne, one hundred and first airborne. They have
different equipment. They have like collapsible stocks on their rifles
so that they are airborne. So does they get snagged
in their shoot lines? They have just a little bit
of a difference on their equipment versus a regular infantry guy.
They're trained to deploy out of aircraft into hostile territory,
(34:35):
not Vietnam. Yeah, you know. And it's the same thing
with a friend of mine who's an Arctic soldier who
got deployed to Afghanistan. He's like, yeah, no, nothing like
you think, rad But when it was cold, I knew
how to stay warm. But other than that, it wasn't
like snow leopards and you know, the whole what you
think they trained for. They're just like, I can handle
the cold. But in Vietnam, these guys are like, I
(34:56):
guess they're supposed to be able to hit you from anywhere,
right the airborne. If they need to go airborne, that's
what they do. If not, boom huh, yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:04):
I mean airborne becomes that they're being transported by the
helicopters and they're you know, in and out. But most
of the guys who are covered in this book just
spend their time marching through the jungle. They're on their feet,
just marching through the jungle and then apparently, you know,
occasionally you get picked up and you know, the chopper
(35:28):
takes you back to the rear, and if they were lucky,
they got to go to the beach for a day,
you know, and and relax the beach and have a
warm beer.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
And you know, Vietnam, that was it.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
But you get a day and then you know, you're
back out in the jungle for weeks on end. So
it's that unrelenting pace that I think takes as much
a mental as a physical toll on them. The men
talk a lot about their leadership. I know, you know,
(36:01):
when you're thinking about Vietnam broadly, you think of you know,
instances of.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Fracture signed or the officers getting fragged or whatever.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
These men, for the most part, speak glowingly of their leadership,
and I think that was really unique and is perhaps
what kept them bonded for so long.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
They just believed in who was taking them in because
they also went and so they're like, let's go, well,
you know, Melissa's our boss, and Melissa's taught us this
whole time, and Melissa's getting off with us off aircraft
and you know, you may be the lieutenant, Melissa, but
we're going to follow what lieutenant says to make sure
we all come back because she's trying to make sure
we're coming back. I'm using you as an example, by
(36:44):
the way.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yeah, no, they particularly there's this one officer who's call
sign is Viking.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
I don't want to give too much away.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Everybody's gotta read the book, right, but they all adore Viking.
That is something that comes across and the reason is
that they trust him and he is never going to
ask them to do anything that he himself won't do.
And so he's a great character who he you know,
we didn't get to interview him for the story, but
(37:16):
he's ever present in the book because almost every man
talks about how much they loved and trusted him, and
I think that's a great case study in how to
be an effective leader and what it really means to
display leadership under the most trying of circumstances.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
It's incredible, Okay, battling bastards, it's out right now and
I would have to imagine, Okay, I read in your
you know breakdown that you also are at the Bruce
Springsteen music you know establishment there. Sorry, it's not right
in front of him. I'm going off of what I
just read, and I think it's so cool, so are
you still involved in Bruce Springsteen's You know, the music
(37:55):
isn't a library.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
This book is just like a side project, like I
said I do.
Speaker 4 (38:02):
I start my career as a historian working for the
Army and Department of the Army Civilian Historian, and then
when the base I worked I closed. I came to
this mom University and was teaching full time for many years.
In my role as a faculty member. We have this
thing that lives at mom University, the Bruce Springsteen Archives
and Center for American Music. We are Bruce Springstein's official repository.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
So I would teach like a.
Speaker 4 (38:24):
I would teach a museum's class, or I would teach
an archives class, and we would do projects with this
Springsteen Archives. So they are getting ready to build a
thirty thousand square foot music museum here on our campus,
so they pulled me over to serve as the curator
and help, you know, get the museum ready to open.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
So I was in the middle of doing this book
when I moved into this new slot. So it was
a little.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Crazy to juggle and to get the book done on time.
But I was not going to disappoint these guys. So
we still got the book done, and I'm always finding
interesting ways to do military history in my current role. So,
for example, Bruce Springsteen's first drummer, this teenage kid, Bart Haynes.
(39:09):
He leaves Bruce Springsteen's first band, the Castiles Uh to
enlist in the Marines, and he's killed in Vietnam. So
I just did a biography an article of Bart Haynes.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
I mean, this incredible story.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
And then you know Bart has long been like a
footnote in Bruce's life. And you know, I was able
to interview Bart's sister and a medic who was there
the night he was killed to to flesh out that story.
Or like Bruce, you know, Bruce he avoids the draft,
but he had close friends like Bart, another guy called
(39:43):
who were killed in Vietnam, So he understood both the
threat of the draft and what it was to see
young Ben go off and be killed. And he winds
up from very early in his career supporting Vietnam veterans causes.
So there's always always a link there with the military history.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
For me, born in the USA. Okay, Bruce is an
American icon, all right, he should be nurtured, And like
you're doing that with you know, preserving everything about it
about Bruce and all he's done. And you know, Max
Weinberg is a drummer for him and such a great
a great musician, and you know, packing.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
Max's drums up. And you said born in the USA.
So we have this traveling exhibit right now. It's called
Music America and it's like one hundred and fifty objects
that tell the story of American music history. And in
the exhibit we have some of Max's drums, we have
the whole Born in the USA outfit. Uh so, yeah,
we have addressed keeping with the Vietnam theme, I have
addressed that Nancy Sinatra wore entertaining the troops in Vietnam.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
That is so cool. I am totally staff on right
now because of Max Weinberg's drums, you know. Yeah, as
a drummer, right, so you're gonna know, you know, Max
has the skills, right, Yeah, love it.
Speaker 3 (40:54):
A picture of maxis.
Speaker 2 (40:55):
Drums that is so awesome. Yeah, Bruce, you're the man too. Bro.
I'm not trying to take away from you with Max Weinberg,
but geez, you know what a great what you know
the East Street Band? Okay, right, yeah, you.
Speaker 4 (41:09):
Know I always tell people that it was a difficult
decision for me to leave my full time faculty role
in come service the curator here, but they expect.
Speaker 3 (41:18):
Like fifty thousand people to come to the museum the
first year.
Speaker 2 (41:21):
Yeah, And I think music is such.
Speaker 4 (41:22):
I'm always looking for accessible ways to get people excited
about history.
Speaker 3 (41:26):
So I think oral history, you know, telling people's stories in.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
Their own words, is a way to get people excited
about history. But music is another way to get people
excited because music is so accessible and like, everybody likes music.
So if you can use music history to get people
excited about the past more broadly, then I think that's
a good thing.
Speaker 2 (41:44):
You're awesome, that's awesome. And we've totally got.
Speaker 3 (41:46):
Off on a tangent here. What is happening here?
Speaker 2 (41:48):
No, this is I told you. I told you at
the beginning. I think you'll like the way it goes.
It's totally awesome, right, And so, you know, I love
how you juggle yourself and you're powerful and as a professor,
you know, as a woman in America and on this planet,
and you know, don't let anyone ever take anything away
from you, and just you just keep doing what you
(42:09):
have to do, and you keep your head down and
you just keep moving forward and gaining ground. And I'm
sure that all of your battle and bastard bros that
are still around would agree with me, okay, And I'm
sure that you're in the right position to be a
curator for the rock and roll because a rock and
roll okay. And I mean, I've really been taking up
a lot of your time. We've been talking for about
(42:31):
forty five minutes. Has just been flying by. But I
know that you're very busy, and I know that there's
a lot of folks that are wanting to have you
come onto their show. And I'm glad and flattered that
you chose us as well. And I want to say
thanks to Daniel for arranging everything right, So thanks Daniel.
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Did you get enough? Were you supposed to go for
a full hour?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Well, I mean, if you want to keep going, we
got it. We're not even done yet. No, it's totally cool.
I mean I told you the secret about the airport.
You didn't want to hear that, You're like, I was like,
that's a thirty minute, you know, tutorial on how to
get your book in the airport. And then I was like,
you know, the battle embastards. What more is there? Go
get your book? You know, Well, there you go.
Speaker 3 (43:07):
That's a perfect way to end.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
Yeah, book people, because it's a good read for a
good cause, and these guys deserve to feel your love
and support now as they reach.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
You know, the end.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yeah, we're losing.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
These guys at a very fast clip, and so it's
so important that we talk about their stories, that we
learn lessons from them, and that we show them our
love and appreciation while we still can.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
I will say this to you before we go. If
you know that one of them would like to come
on and talk to me, all right, and you say, hey,
I think that you would be a good fit with
rad On Soft Rep. You send me one of those
battlem bastards. Gay, Yeah, and I will put them on.
You could be on too if they want to have
you as just like a comfort zone. Whatever the case is,
so be it. You know now that we've become friends, right,
(43:56):
you're like, Oh, Rat's fine, don't worry about it. Come on,
I've bet yeah, he's vetted. He's totally five, totally five,
born to the USA. All right, no problem there. Well,
Well with that said, Melissa, thank you so much, for
taking time to be on the show, and to my
listener and to those that are just joining us for
the first time. You know, I hope you stick around
and again check out the merch store at soft reap
(44:18):
dot com. Find us on Instagram at soft rep. And
thanks again to Brandon Webb who runs the place, the
Soft Rep, and all of us out there like Callum
and Chris and you know April. Thanks for everybody behind
the scenes. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for
you guys believing in me to run this ship. So
thanks so much again, and on behalf of everybody that
(44:39):
was on my show and myself and Bruce the Man.
What's up? I say peace use them.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Listening to a self red radio
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