Brett Rumford

Claude welcomes pro golfer Brett Rumford to the podcast to reflect on his playing career and his recent transition into coaching. They dive into the strategies Rummy uses to help his clients sharpen their short game and master the bunker.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
It's the Son of a Butcher podcast. I'm your host,
Claude Horman. Before we get to it, this episode is
being brought to you by Platform Golf, the first of
its kind technology transforming off course golf. Whether you're hitting
indoors on a simulator or training from into out in
a bay, Platform Golf lets you practice like you're on
the course, with side hill, uphill and downhill lies adjusting

(00:24):
right beneath your feet. It's the first of its kind
solution giving players and coaches the ability to replicate real
world conditions in and out of the studio. You don't
need to be on the tenth fairway to learn how
to handle an awkward stance or a sloping green. Now
you can train inside the studio, trusted by me and
top PGA teaching professionals. Platform Golf is changing how golf

(00:48):
is practice. Visit platform goolf dot com to learn more.
My guest is a six time winner on the dp
World Tour played on the PGA Tour. Brett Rumford. Rummy
wanted to do this for a while. There's so much
that I want to ask you about the short game,
about a bunker, because I've never seen anyone out of

(01:11):
a bunker as good as you. I got to watch Sebby,
I've watched you know, my dad's worked with Jose Mariello Fauble.
He's pretty good out of a bunker, but you're the
best I've ever seen. But before we get to that,
you're playing career. When you look back at, you know,
the career that you had winning a professional event, you
know in nineteen ninety nine as an amateur, which you
kind of got you your start, and then the six

(01:34):
wins on the DP world. You were one of those
globetrotters back in the day from Australia that were traveling
all over the world. When you look back at your
playing career, what are you most proud of?

Speaker 2 (01:47):
My resilience? Probably, I think mostly for the guys that
are at this still today, the Rosies, the Scutties, the
guys in which I grew up playing golf with. I'm
playing against Rosie He and Gary Wilson home cracky. That
would have been mid nineties, but they came down and
tail myself and Jeff Ogilvie up pretty badly six and
five in a game of foursomes, and that was my

(02:09):
first introduction to meeting Rosie and he was a superstar
back then. But these guys are still out there. There's
still glog trotting playing just as good golf, if not better.
But my resilience probably we all have our stories, we
all have our setbacks, I guess, and mine sort of came.
The start of it was maybe twenty thirteen when I
had twelve inches of small test I removed in South Africa.

(02:32):
I was coming third, I was coming third that week too,
and then kind of just fell off the face of
the earth the twelve months. Got the body back eventually
after working working my butt off for a couple of years,
and then probably the most the proudest moment was probably winning,
Like to come to win is tough, but sort of
to come from that physical set back and win was

(02:54):
probably one of my proudest moments. Just to hang in there.
I could have just racked it then, but I just
felt as I had some golf left. And then my
wrist started playing up. In eighteen, had some surgery. I'm
a wrist in All of nineteen I was out and
then I came back playing probably the best golf of
my career. Around twenty I played five events and then

(03:15):
COVID hit and then of course it was lockdown for
it was like they say, things coming through huh right,
so and that was it for me kind of thing.
But my resilience throughout it, with my surgeries and just yeah,
just playing away. You know, it's just a tough school,
as you know, acclaud. It's it's not as glamorous as
what everyone seems to think. Retaining tour cards is not

(03:37):
as easy as what everyone seems to think. Because we
all follow our favorite players every year, don't we. So
they just you know, to think of guys like Freddie
Couples who finished well, he never finished outside the top
fifty for how many years, like twenty something like years.
It's crazy.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
I think the great ones, you know right now, if
you look at the great players, Rory, Jon Rahm, Scutty Scheffler, know,
every all these great players across the board, they make
it look so easy, and I don't think the average
golf fan that watches realizes just how difficult it is

(04:13):
to keep your card, to keep playing status. I was
talking to a kid yesterday, Rummy, who's trying to play,
and you know, he doesn't have anywhere to play and
trying to formulate that plan for him, and I said
to him, you know, the holy grail of trying to
be a professional golfer is to have status somewhere, full

(04:35):
status on a tour somewhere. Because if you don't have
full status on DP World, Corn Faerry PJ Tour Live,
you know, the satellite tours as it doesn't matter where
it is, even Latin American Canada, if you don't have
full status, Basically, every single week you're playing in a tournament,

(04:57):
you're trying to Monday qualify in play in a mini
tours something. You're basically trying to catch lightning in a bottle. Yeah,
every single time you play, that constant struggle, R mean,
to keep your card. You did it for a long
time all over the world. What's that like when you

(05:18):
get off to a bad start to the year, you
don't play good early, and then you're looking at your
schedule where you need some time off. You can't afford
to take any time off not playing great. Talk me
through what it's like, that constant drive to keep your
card and to keep status. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
And I think to add to that point as well,
called I think is playing on any kind of tour
making sure that you can play four round events. So
we have so many of the smaller tours here in
Australia as well, the Tier twos which are one two
round tournaments, but they get to play these four rounds
and being able to construct scoring, the scoring mentality and

(06:00):
playing over four rounds is very different to just you know,
a sprint over thirty six holes or eighteen holes. So
these pro ams are different beasts. I mean, you've got
great players, they just can't transfer it to four rounds
of golf, and that takes that requires an art in itself,
I think. But getting off to a bad start, I mean,
you've got to look at it. You've gotta be so
patient with it, don't you. You've got to stick with

(06:20):
your processes like you wouldn't believe. And I think the
hardest thing is not the change her. So so many
guys they panic and they just they start changing things.
They change their coaches, they change everything else. You know,
they start not so much making excuses, but then they
just start to you know, go for the you know,
the short straw, and they just start, you know, yeah,

(06:41):
looking for ways out or reasons. But sometimes there is
no reason.

Speaker 1 (06:45):
Huh.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
Sometimes golf just doesn't give it to you for whatever reason.
And that's the hard part about golf is that. And
maybe Homer is probably experiencing that as well. I mean,
he's on top of his game, but no reason to
things just seem to go sideways. Unbenow, how do.

Speaker 1 (07:03):
You how did you balance? For me? I mean, in
two thousand and eight, you came over the US after
playing in Europe and having a good career in Europe,
he made the decision to come over and play, you know,
on the best tour in the world. Two thousand and eight.
You went through Q School, you qualified. Did you go
it down any rabbit holes once you got to the

(07:25):
PGA Tour and think, Okay, I had a great career
in Europe, I played all over the world that I
had succeests in Asia, a success at home. But yeah,
there is this thing that I see players do sometimes say, Okay,
I've been good. Now I'm on the PGA Tour. Now
I'm just gonna really try and make changes and really

(07:45):
try and go down the rabbit hole. Because you have
to be so good to play on the PGA Tour.
That balance of just sticking with the game that got
you to the PGA Tour. Why do you think sometimes
the mind shift is from mean, okay, I've got to
make changing to me. Martin Kamer won the US Open

(08:05):
the Players Championship in years a fader, and then he's
at the top of the game and he thinks, okay,
now to contend to Augusta, I need to learn how
to draw it. So now I'm going to try and
learn and take my game to hit draws. Where got
me to win a major in the Players was hitting fait.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, I think it's probably a case of expectations they
go up. In my case, I did change a few things.
I mean, I used the broomstick since two thousand and four.
I've got to the PGA Tour and thought, you know what,
it's the PGA Tour. I don't feel right using a broomstick.
No one uses a broomstick here, and I felt really
intimidated by just rocking up using a brumstick, and I

(08:42):
just felt I can't use a broomstick, So I stopped
using a broomstick. Like I finished second through the Q School,
I run eighth in my first event, which is the
Bob Hope Top ten. I'm away and then two weeks later,
I switched the short putter, and yeah, and literally hadn't
used this since two thousand and four or four years.
I'm going to use the whole year. And I don't
even know why to this day, I don't know why

(09:04):
I got intimidated, or not even intimidated, why even made
that decision to actually just make a change for not
so much, you know, just for the better or otherwise.
It just changed. You guys didn't feel comfortable using the broomstick.
Not that it was cheating at all, but yeah, so
that was just a massive error on my behalf. And

(09:24):
if I were to change one thing in my career,
if I were to turn back the clocks, I would
continue using that broomstick. So yeah, that was just a crazy,
crazy error on my behalf at that point. But yeah, look, yeah,
it's just it's just such such a tough game. It's
just so hard. You know what, You can grab a
fourteen year old kid, Claude. You can take he wants

(09:46):
to be a hundromeit a sprinter. You can take some
muscle fiber out of his leg. You can test that DNA,
and then with that DNA you can say, look, man,
I'm going to get you on Usain Boltz program, you're
going to run a high nines maybe just maybe, but
your goal is going to be maybe qualify for the
eighth fastest man in the final Olympics in eight years time, right,

(10:10):
And that's your lane. Stay in that lane because you're
not going to be a gold medal winner or a contender.
But the kid goes, yeah, okay, cool, I'll commit to that.
You know what, there's eight guys that rock up at
the Olympics. There's only two guys maybe one that's it's
game over for you, saying polit it's just like who's
running for second? So and maybe if he gets off
to a bad start, it may be a two man race.

(10:31):
But the rest is just trying to run for PBS
and that's their goal. They're up parting that night running
a mark, right, So that's the heigh of their career
and they'll commit to that. So, but you can tell
someone that that's your lane. But with golf, it's so
unique for the fact that how do you tell someone, hey, mate,
this is your lane. You're a top sixty player, you're
a top eighty player. No one's going to take that

(10:52):
claude And if you do say that to them, You're
going to be fired in a hardbeat. Well, you can't
take me to number one, Cord, I'm a number one player,
but you can't. Can't say that. So I got a
story where Bradley Dredge maybe two thousand and three. For him,
he had an unbelievable year and he played. He was
one of the most impressive players. I think I've sin
strike a goal all and play.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
I was working with Bradley.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
I think you were. I think you were. And I
think he was doing a little bit of stuff with
his old coach as well. Maybe he saw him three
times a year, but he wasn't doing too much. But
he won twice. I think he contended another three or
four times of winning, maybe you know, more than twice.
It was an incredible year. So he sits at Valderrama,
finishes second or third on the I think it was
third on the money list, and he sits in the

(11:38):
locker room with his caddy from all reports, and so
the story goes anyway, and they just start discussing what's
happening over the five week break. So Bradley says to
his caddy, you know what are you doing? I'm thinking
about going down to Portugal, just spending some time with
the family, just chilling out. What are you doing, bro,
I'm thinking about going to go see another coach. Won't
mention his name, but yeah, I'm just going to go

(11:59):
see another So his caddie's like, wow, what for. He goes, oh, well,
I just think I can take my game to the
next level. So that elusive next level. So his caddie
didn't pull him up and say, hey, brad Man, you're
a top forty player. Stay in your lane, right, can't
take that bit of muscle farger out of his leg
and say hey, Brad. So let's you know what, we

(12:20):
had some unbelievable back Nines this year. Let's just put
it down to a unbelievably If we can replicate it
next year, great. But he's like, oh yeah, but I've
only seen my coach three times. He's like, well, yeah,
probably saw you a few times as well, and just
had an unbelievable year flying. Yeah, it goes down a
different path and literally loses his game. But it's as

(12:41):
simple as that, like it's going it's gonna just be
And these five years, these five week breaks over Christmas
and New Years, it's amazing. That's the death zone. I
think that's the death zone of every player because people
seem to think that they got five weeks off, so
they're going to just make all these changes in these
five weeks and come out the next year and be
another player. But as a time continual like it's only

(13:02):
it's only five weeks, so to make substantial change over
five weeks, and to actually make that change if it,
if it's significant, to have the repetitions, to make it
feel comfortable, to make it feel comfortable under pressure, and
repeatable through having already a neurological pathway that is actually
so ingrained. Well, like Martin Kaimer, he just thought he

(13:23):
would just make the change maybe and oh, this is
just going to be three months before I'll be back
out playing just five weeks. I just go to this,
I just start hitting draws over five weeks. So now, mate,
you got to sit down and say, Martin, if you
want to make this feel comfortable, this is a three
year project. So if you're happy making this change over
three years to maybe have it last under the most
extreme pressure to win the Masters, that's our plan. But

(13:47):
then of course shit is to fan and they go
back to They just they're just not prepared to make
that sacrifice. You would say, I don't know, but just
spitballing there.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
I can remember when you know. I mean, I think
one of the negative things of the only real negative
of the Tiger Woods era is Tiger made it seem
fashionable but also made it seem easy to players that
you can just basically overhaul your golf swing. And I
look at when, you know, after he won the Masters

(14:17):
in ninety seven, and then you know, Tiger and my
dad made you know, a lot of changes to his grip,
to the club face and stuff like that. What people
forget about that is that was in nineteen ninety seven
and then the Tiger you know, the Tiger glory years
kind of started in kind of ninety nine to two thousand. Yeah,
but I was around for that. It took almost two

(14:39):
years for the best player maybe arguably of all time
to actually make the changes, for the changes to avade,
for the changes to go in. And I teach so
many players, you know, on a on a yearly basis
from me that come in they're trying to play, and
I say, listen, tell me a little bit about your

(15:00):
you know, they don't have any tours to play on.
There trying to play many tours. They're trying to get better,
they're trying to get to that next level whatever it is.
And they'll say, yeah, you know, I was hitting draws
last year, but you know I've decided to just change
everything and go down this direction. And you're like, did
you have any idea how long? Yeah, that's going to take?

(15:20):
Do I remember this correctly? Run me. When you came
to the States and played on the PG, did you
get down the Maco Grady rabbit hole? Did you spend
some time with Mac?

Speaker 2 (15:27):
Yeah? Look, I was seeing Matt Belgium at the time,
so it was very very Yeah, look it was very
Look it was still Mac was very diluted. We're just
we're chipping away at it. And Matt came across for
a week before Cramontana. This this week actually, so this
week you won there? And yeah, I spent a couple
of yep, two thousand and seven, So two weeks before Cramontana,

(15:51):
I spent two or three days with Mac. There's a
goal school in Scotland, so I pretty much flew from
there to Cramontana and then I won the next week
but I mean I credit to Matt Belchium's coaching at
that particular point, and then because I had it to
year exemption, I thought, oh, you know what, I'll give
the PGA Tour crowd. I've been playing out in Europe
for so long now that it's probably a nice time

(16:11):
to make that change. Probably played in Europe bit too long,
but regardless, went across finished second. So of course it's
the West Coast Swing and Mac O'Grady's in Palm Springs
at that particular time, so Max sort of took me
under his wing for eleven weeks on that West Coast swing,
and yeah, it was great. It was a great time,
but definitely wasn't so much the rabbit hole. I think

(16:34):
it was probably more Mac was fantastic from a golf
school perspective where he's just breaking down the gold swing,
but to actually see him one on one, you didn't
quite get that the breaking down or the understanding of
the goal swing. So it wasn't quite as as technical
as what you think. But yeah, look, I think Mack
tried to change me in a lot of ways other

(16:55):
than just the golf swing, which got a bit confused
as a confusing time for me.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
So what's it like working with Maco Grady? Because the
list is wrong and distinguished of people that have worked
with Maco Grady that he now no longer even talks to.
So you're either you're either in with Mac or you're
out with Mac. And the majority of the people that

(17:19):
has spent any real time around him, including yourself, guys
like DJ Singh, they're all on the out. So what
was it like working with Mac? Because I always think
rummy that Mac was the ultimate example of the message
can get lost in the messenger, the delivery of the message.

(17:39):
I think some of the things that I spent some
time around Mack because I lived in Palm Springs. One
of the things that you know, he told me that
I talked to my dad about. It was an idea
that my dad gave Tiger, this idea on the downswing.
I heard Mac say, straighten your right arm once. Yeah,
you know, to not get a club kind of deep

(18:01):
and underneath you on the downswing.

Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (18:03):
I was talking to my dad about that. We were
he was working with Tiger once and I was talking like,
you know, I heard Mac talk about straightening the right arm.
My dad kind of liked that idea and then put
it into history. But I think a lot of the
stuff that Mac talked about or does still talk about,
is somewhat kind of revolutionary and groundbreaking. But I think

(18:27):
his delivery and his persona yeah a message can kind
of be so. So when you worked with him, what
was different about working with Mac and what did you
find unique about him?

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Well, first of all, he is bashit crazy and that mind.
He won't mind me saying that, because he actually told
me if if anyone were to ask, you know this question,
just straight up say, Mac is absolutely bonkers bashit. But
in saying that, he's a lovely man. He's an amazing man.

(19:06):
And he looked after me so well, like so so well,
like like a father, so to speak. And I think
that's probably more The perplexing part is that he draws
you in so close to them, yeah, just to just
to disown you, which is okay, And you know what,
you kind of wait for it and you hope it

(19:28):
never happens, but you know it's going to happen. It's
going to happen, right, But it's just more under the
circumstance of what it is. It is probably more what
you worry about. So you just hope it's nothing, yeah,
like too sinister than in terms of because you know,
when he starts to bag you out, like you're going
to get a proper bagging out, So you could be subtle,

(19:50):
it could be really extreme. But in saying that, irrespective,
I think we're all of the understanding that he is
a genius. I think that man should be inducted into
the the World Hall of Fame for Golf for his
services to golf and what he's contributed to the world
of golf so far as teaching. I think so many
golf coaches have got so much of his material, and yeah,

(20:15):
just just the actual the learning side of just better
understanding maybe the biomechanics, how that ties in to the
golf swing obviously HOI Merkelly had a massive impact on that.
And then yeah, his deciphering of the golf machine to
put that into YEMI somewhat an educational platform. I mean,
I say semi somewhat an extreme elaborate form of education

(20:40):
for those that have ever been on a MAX school
is quite incredible. How he can actually incorporate the actual
physical they're doing with the actual you know, the technical
elements of the of the actual golf machine. But what
was fascinating for me is that with my short game
and him talking about the full swing, there's lots of
there's lots of connections, lots of parallels, there's lots of

(21:02):
feels in which you would talk about that. I'm like, wow, okay, yep, yep, yep.
But the crazy thing is I could do it with
a wedge in my hand, swinging at sixty miles an
hour and under he's doing it at like maintaining his
pressure points and like he was just a phenomenal athlete,
phenomenal golfer. And then neurologically, I think the translation, I

(21:24):
think for a lot of his pressures and pressure points
in his grip strength that he would talk about. Neurologically,
when you train a pattern, it's a bit like walking.
So if I said to you, what are you activating
your legs? Or I said to my students, what do
you activating your legs when you walk? What do you
actually what are you actually activating? And they said, well,
well I activate my and they start to go and

(21:46):
I say, well, no, you don't. You don't. You couldn't
tell me what you actually activate when you walk? So
if you walk a bit faster, you still couldn't tell
me what you activate. You could actually walk and actually
literally activate your legs and make a jerky motion of
neurologically your motion. Then you'd start to feel your flexa,

(22:06):
your quad, your hamstrings, your glutes, and everything else. But
that learned trained emotion of like what we do every
single day. Yeah, we don't try and reach for a
cup of coffee. We just move it without really thinking.
And that was mac in terms that he could disassociate.
And I can kind of feel this when if you grab,
if you get someone to grab a golf club and

(22:26):
just grip it as tight as they can, like it's
literally just white knuckle it and put it out in
front of them. And if you were just to just
pull it six inches towards you, I can guarantee you
that with those people that grip it tight here, the
whole body will come towards you. But all you said
was just grip it tight in the hands, right, But
as they grip it tight in the hands, it goes
from the hands into the wrists, their forearms, their shoulders,

(22:48):
and everything locks in and they come towards it. They
can't grip it tight and then just loosen the up
of body. All you said was grip it tight in
the hands. So Mac had the ability to be able
to I think in terms, if he wanted to maintain
his pressure points, he could squeeze as much as he liked,
but his hands and id some softy. But I'm squeezing
the shit out of my pressure points in my arms.

(23:09):
Here he can get really tight with his hands but
then have the freedom of the flow. So when you
look at these guys that are trying to interpret the
information of pressure points and gripping at nine out of ten,
everything's so rigid and you watch them swing and they
just look, they just look stuck. Where Mac he just had.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
This softness, beautiful fluid.

Speaker 2 (23:28):
Yeah, if you said to Mac, when people ask me, Rummy,
look what do you feel? Most importantly, what do you
feel when you chip? And I just simply say, I've
got the answer for you.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Right.

Speaker 2 (23:41):
If you want to know the holy grab is shipping.
If you want to know rummy secret, I'll give it
to you right now, right give it to us, I'll
give it to you. So this is what I feel.
I feel nothing. So it is honestly, it's the Kung
Fu panda scroll where there's got to be the secret.

(24:02):
He finally against the scroll and looks at it, and
there's there's literally nothing on the scroll. And that's that's
the thing. Is like, when I move, I can articulate
what I do, but I can't tell you physically what
I feel because it becomes just like walking. It just
becomes this zen state of motion, like I hold in
my mind's eye a feeling of a shot in which

(24:25):
I just I've played it so many times. I just
draw on it, but I don't try and move anything
mechanically or differently.

Speaker 1 (24:31):
It just moves.

Speaker 2 (24:32):
If you want to walk a bit faster or change direction,
you just change directions. But that, to me, that was
where Mac sort of that's where his genius lay is.
His information is one thing, but then the neurological connection
between how he actually picture the movement then to move
it but without the actual activation. Wow, that was. That

(24:57):
was amazing, especially with these labers and how much compression
it would put on the golf ball and how effortless,
how effortless and off with the accelerations but the golf ball.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
It was.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
It was just amazing. So Mac was, Yeah, it was incredible.
I still think he should be inducting in the World
Hall of Fame.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
You talked about I think most people would think that,
you know, I mean kind of one of your calling
cards as a player was your short game, your bunker work.
I mean, if any tour player is ever around you,
they are going to try and pick your breath. I
mean anytime Scotty's around you, yeah, he's like, get me

(25:34):
in a bunker work at my bunker game. But Mac
is kind of renowned for full swing stuff. But I
thought it was interesting what you said that the principles
that he talked about from a full swing standpoint, you
were able to kind of bring them into your short game.

(25:55):
What parts of what Mac was talking about in full
swing move moved from the full screen part over to
the short game part for you?

Speaker 2 (26:05):
Well, I think, Sir Rabbit Warren. But I think in
terms of shifting the flights, in terms of the overtaking rates,
and like what moved when that was like really intriguing
to me in terms of the way he would shift
more open, he shifted his pressures in his feet, And

(26:26):
I think I think it was funny how like I
think Tiger said he feels everything in his hands, nothing
in his feet. Nicholas said, he feels everything in his
feet draws and fades, nothing in his hands. So I
think they're both perhaps not, they're not wrong, but they're
both not right for the fact that your hands or
your feet or should I say your hands better listen

(26:48):
to what your feet are doing. You know, so your
hands and your release is going to be very very
different to the pressures and how your feet are going
to move, So your hand's better listen to what's going on.
So Tiger just doesn't hit a stinger with a different
release pattern by not moving a shipload left and low
and then start to stall and then get the hell
out of the ground. So the high ones are different, right,

(27:10):
So and that's what I sort of found, Like Mac
was just talking about the correlation between the different release pads,
maybe with how fire your pressure points are going to shift,
how much you're going to be opening, how how little.
But yeah, thought I thought that was that was fascinating
because I think when you chip around the green with
the most amount of loft, with the most exposed amount

(27:33):
of degree of slope as well, you start to learn
how to use the sandwich as well, and I think
my discovery just came from just working at it, you know, working,
working work and working just chipping for hours and hours
and hours.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
So if someone had to rummy, if you had to
describe your short gain philosophy, right, because you're you're getting
into the coaching world now you're starting to kind of
do more of that. But you know, what you believe
is kind of good for short game is what well?

Speaker 2 (28:09):
As I say, I've got two says like this, there's
not one technique for every shot, but every shot requires
a technique. And then for every way of doing something,
there's always someone out there contradicting it and maybe doing
it better or if not the same. So there's many
different ways. But for me, god, I'd say my philosophy

(28:32):
is that I don't it's very much tied into the
full swing. I think people it's very very bimechanical. I
don't really have a philosophy, but I'm very much down
the road that you definitely need to pay attention to
the slope and you definitely need to pay attention to
the flight, the intended flight that you're trying to play.
So my philosophy is like knowing what you will need
to change in order to hit those different flights. So

(28:57):
and it's you know, for me, there's so much to it.
My philosophy is that it's so deep and it's so
much of its sort of it's feel based as well
as technical, and my philosophy is that you need to
go through a bit of world of pain with a
technical element. I mean, I think that just there's it's
such such a short period of time. The golf club
better be in position because you're basically at P six,

(29:21):
so that pre delivery, like the full swing, you better
have some things lined up. And if you're not and
the golf club's out of balance and not in a
position to then release, then well you're going to feel
just as much out of time as what you would
having a longer swing coming down. If you've got a
bent plane line on your steet, the golf swing feels
like you've got no time and it's over in two seconds.

(29:42):
So chipping is just the same. So even though it's slower,
more condensed, and you think, well I should be able
to control of this handle, Nope, the brain's going to
know if that gold club's out of position, it is
going to try and fight the balance of the golf club.
So getting that thing in balance, I think is the
number one thing. I think people's philosophy for me is
changing maybe the perception of how that plubhead moves. It's

(30:07):
on the circumference. So yeah, So but my philosophy is
you teach the peopil. That's my philosophy is that they're
all different. And to think that's a one pill, that's
a one one answer fix, you knowin'.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
So rather than talk about your philosophy, then when you
look at short games and you look at students and
you look at the the issues that they're having, are
there any kind of common things that you see on
a regular basis, both at the elite level that elite
players do with their short game that can cause some problems,

(30:42):
or just the average golfer listening to this podcast that
what do you see on a regular basis that people
are getting wrong or aren't doing that are causing bad shortcuts? Yep.

Speaker 2 (31:01):
So people's concepts is that we've got to get the
golf club moving from the ground off the ground. So unfortunately,
the biomechanics we can cheat gode this in many different ways,
but definitely the way the right arm will band. I
can ether band it well. It can lift up and lower,
can move into adduction or abduction across my body this way,

(31:21):
it can go internal external this way, so my risk
can play the part as well. So people's concepts of
getting it up would probably definitely be more of a pull.
So the golf club's got to get up. It's such
a short motion, so they don't really use their thoracic
at all, and mainly it's more of an arm pole,

(31:41):
so it's handlebased.

Speaker 1 (31:44):
Again, it's handlebased. They're focusing a lot on in short
game the grip and what the grip is doing to
sort of get the golf club up right. You've got
your hands on the grip. It's much more of coming
from the hands and the grip as.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
A yeah, the arm, it's mainly just the arm. So
it's just more what I see is that the concept
because my hands are perpendicular. If my hand, if my
elbow happens to pull and this humorous moves towards my
seam line, then generally this left arm is going to
start to pull across their body because their perpendicular. So

(32:21):
Scotty's if you google Adam Scott DTL on YouTube you'll
see kind of a man alta golf swing of Adam
Scott and that was probably the greatest golf swing. He's
probably hitting like a seven or eight im until part three,
probably the greatest demonstration. I think it's the greatest golf
swing I think has ever been put on a golf
club in the history of golf. That golf swing right there.

(32:44):
Study that so Scotty's arm will hinge, it will bend
up this way and was also left retracts the show
a little bit. And so what gets it up now
is his turn keeps that thing in front of him
and the arm will move back more towards his seam
line as he turns into a buff the way that
right arm will work in front of him as he
hinges and bends and lifts. It's not that so people

(33:06):
bend as soon as the elbows here, they'll have impact anxiety,
so they won't reverse it and try and now shift
the handle to have the chance of moving this handle
in front of the goal coort to either the low
point in front down. They leave it there, so I
cheek coat it and throw the hands back out. So
now that lines up vertically low point behind the gold call.

(33:29):
I now need to use my sternum to shift the
low point. So they will bend, they'll dump out, and
they'll stay inflection and move their sternum to shift their
low point. All the old boys do it. So and
that's the variance in which I see to a degree,
so where I'm actually hinging keeping this right arm or

(33:49):
in front of me, having more left side participation. So
even tho it's a short shot, it's really difficult to
get the thoracic the ribcage to be more the driving factor.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
Yeah, I think we see a lot of people with
short game, you know, just on a basic chip frum mean,
they get that club so deep behind that right that
first move is that club works so far, the club head,
the arms, everything gets deep. They're trying to hit the
golf ball maybe five yards in the air. So now

(34:23):
you've got this massive move to where the arms have
moved massively behind the body, the shoulders can start to
almost turn off in a way. And then now in
a very very short time gap, you've now got to
get the club head which is massively behind you. Now
you've got to somehow shift that back in front. I

(34:47):
used to watch my Dad. I mean, I remember being
in Palm Springs when Mac was working with Sevy and
they were doing a lot. Sevy did all his short
game with fifty and six mob wedges should be outlawed, right.
He thought you should be able to take a fifty
six movie. But I always remember in watching seve short game,

(35:10):
everybody always talks about how Spanish hands, how great Seb's
hands were. But when I watched a lot of Seveis
short game, there was a ton of body in it.
There was a lot of rotation, like you said, with
the upper torso, the upper torso is moving, and a
lot of my dad's short game stuff that he kind

(35:33):
of taught to Tiger and then Tiger put his spin
on it. A lot of that came from his work
with Greg Norman, and Greg said, listen, I learned all
my short game stuff from seven right. I always was
fascinated by how much Seve hit chops with his body. Yeah,
from chip shops. We're talking three four five yard five

(35:57):
paced chip chops. There was a lot of thoracic upper
torso movement and there wasn't a lot of hand movement,
but he was renowned for having these amazing hands. These
Spanish hands. Yeah, and I saw him do it more
with the body then I saw him do a lot
of it with his hands. Yes, he could hit the

(36:17):
flop and do all the stuff with his wrist action
and delivery.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (36:22):
But I used to watch him hit high flop shots
from a dead square club base with the fifty six
and these things were going straight up in the air
and coming down, and he was doing it with his body,
not his hands.

Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, that's and that was large in part because of
his lower body. The way he actually orientate is his
left fema and his ability to then internally rotate his
trail pelvis. So that's and that's the massive key to sevvy.
So you square off that left fema like a goal shot.

(36:57):
You cooked. So, as I say to a lot of
the people here that I teach, it's a case of
I've been told to rotate my hips Claude since I
was eight years of age. I'm still hearing it now
on YouTube. But if I say to everyone, what exactly
what exactly are your hips and how exactly do your

(37:19):
hips rotate? Like I want to know exactly what your
hips are. If I asked the question to into the viewers, right, Like,
what exactly are your hips and how exactly do they rotate?
Because that's what I've been told that We've been told
rotat your hips? So how do I?

Speaker 1 (37:38):
How do I?

Speaker 2 (37:39):
What are they? So all we have is two pelvits, right, So, yeah,
you feel bone up in here, Well, it's just that bone.
It's not multiple bones. It's just one big pelvis. The
pelvis bone comes down, the FEMA or the federal head
attaches in there with ligaments and tendons and muscle fashion
and all the rest of it. But yeah, we either
for mostly what I see is that when they for

(37:59):
most people, when they lock themselves in, we have the
hardest part with golf is that there's disassociation everywhere, massive
amounts of dissociation. And start to go to the club,
starts to dissociate for him being in front of us,
and then we start to fold their arms start to
work across a little bit. Then our thoracics starts to
rotate and disassociate from our pelvis. And then so if
I sort of rotate, I can sort of just keep

(38:21):
everything locked in and I can rotate my body with
no disassociation. But I'll be rotating around my knee. Now,
so the knee has maybe thirty forty degrees of rotation,
so you're only going to go so far with that,
and then the foot starts to given that aversion starts
to lift up. It's not rotating, there's no rotation in
the ankle joint, but starts to lift up. So then

(38:41):
there's no disassociation here. But it's all just coming around
that kneecap or. Sevy opened up his left fema quite considerably,
which then gave way for his trail pelvise. If you
just grab your left leg and then go internal external rotation,
if you internally rotate your left fema and max it
out and turn your left foot in and try and

(39:02):
rotate your pelvis around the corner.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Can't do it, You're dead.

Speaker 2 (39:06):
Can't do it. So when I just rotate our hips,
so we internally rotate our pelvis. So by Seve externally rotating,
he went from let's say we've got thirty degrees of
internal rotation. If I go now out forty five just
with the pelvis not rotating my hips, I'm just going
to go externally rotation with the left female, I will

(39:26):
now have seventy five degrees. Pretty much with my trial
pelvis being able to now rotate around that federal head.
That's what Sevi did in a nutshell.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
Do you think sometimes players in short game rummy to
dumb that down can get to square with their set
up kind of a set right. Their lower body and
their upper body are very very square, and that's why
they're conscious about fact that the shot they're hitting is
very very small. So they're trying to lock in that

(39:54):
lower body. But the lower body is in a very
very square position. So now as the body comes as
the club comes in, you're trying to not move the
lower body, not move the upper body, and then the
club dumps out because the body is in a position
to where it can do anything.

Speaker 2 (40:12):
Yeah, And I think that's where, if anything, maybe Tiger's
Achilles hill was, maybe that thirty forty meter range where
I just think, you know, just having your left foot
back doesn't mean that you're going to clear any better.
If you turn that forty and thirty degrees, you can
go forty five degrees open your pearls Ain's still going
to rotate. You gotta be locked. It doesn't matter how
open you get. If you internally rotate that FEMA and

(40:34):
you run that in you're jammed, So I go closed
off more open. Then you'll actually have that freedom to
be able to now use your pealp so you'll have
what like thirty degrees. Your thrusting really go so far.
Once you run out of that room, your pressure points
now are going to be over there. So you can
do it Steve Stricker and literally move everything out of it.

(40:58):
I got my pajamas on, so I can't stand up,
so you can start to move everything in your tilts.
So he lines everything else up out of the goal shot.
So you can do that if you have that collision.
Now start to level out this way. If you're trying
to stain your tilts and move around the corner. If
you don't have that mobility or that structure of your pelvise,

(41:19):
then you're able to maintain your pressure points into this
realm just here and pivot. So it's very Yeah, it's
very It's not overly complicated. But for those that would
struggle to have the internal rotation, then yeah, that can
be that can be an issue if you lose that
internal rotation. So I'll suggest if you're early, you'd want
to really start to open that up to have that

(41:40):
ability to be able to now move your pelvise, which
now obviously moves your thorastic It's not just a thoracic
rotation with a dead low body. And that's where Sebbe
was really low. It wasn't he Sevi. He got low
and like left foot flat and got really down and
then you can move through it with that internal rotation
of the trial pelvis. So yeah, it's just genius at it.

Speaker 1 (42:02):
Let's talk about something that I think you are a
unicorn at bunker play, Romie. Why do you think for
the majority of golfers getting out of a bunker is
so difficult? Do you think it's concept, do you think
it's technique? Do you think it's a combination. But it's

(42:24):
the one thing that I think the majority of people
listening to this podcast would hold their hand up and
say they've struggled with their entire career or their entire game.
It's a part of their game. Yeah, that is never consistent.
Why do you think that is?

Speaker 2 (42:42):
Look, it's it's going to be for me. I can't
I can't throw an exact reason for a blanket reason
for all the viewers. It's not a as I say,
it's it's hard for me to sell clickbit on YouTube
for that fact is that it's going to be up
to the individualized to what that's all about. But I think,
I think maybe the concepts and the perception of digging

(43:05):
the golf club out of the ground when that release
point throws out, the hanging back, the high lip, there's
lots of things here that the concept of getting up
the ball out or lofted is generally it's a it's
a hang back, it's a it's a flick of the wrist.
And then of course the last thing you can do
is hold your wrist angles and feel as though you
want to move down, have chaff lean, have a low

(43:26):
point that's in front of the golf ball, and have
the golf ball go this way. It makes no sense.
It's just to me, if I'm a logical person that's
never played golf before, man, I'm going back this way
and I'm flicking this thing.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
Up because optically you're trying to I think part of
the reason I've over the years, Ronnie, have seen players
struggle is optically they're trying to get they see a
lip in front of them, the ball is on the ground, optically,
they're trying to get the golf ball up. So if
we gave them a ball and told them to throw

(43:57):
the ball underhanded, there are would move in an upward
motion in it. The higher they wanted to throw it,
the more their spine would tilt back and the more
their arm would go up. But that is the death
move in the bunker because then your low point is
bobbing out massively behind the ball. So give me some

(44:21):
cheat codes for people listening of things that they can
try to help their bunker game become more concerned. One
of the things that I love and for everybody listening,
you can go on YouTube and watch RTT hit bunker shots.
Your tempo and rhythm in a bunker is I've never

(44:45):
seen anyone have that, and it reminds me of a conversation.
I mean one your sound out of a bunker. I
mean I've watched you hit for twenty some more years now.
I've watched you hit bunker shots both online and in person.
But the sound that you create is very, very different.

(45:06):
It's very unique and it's very consistent. And I was
watching Ben Crenshaw, I worked at the Austin Golf Club
in two thousand and five in Austin, Texas, and I
was watching Ben talk to someone about putting, and this
guy was putting from fifteen twenty feet and it was
remarkable to me how many times Ben said, that's a

(45:27):
good sound. There's a good sound. There was a good sound.
We know that in a full shot, right, there's a
seven iron feel. There's a seven iron sound when you
hit a good one. But Ben Crenshaw talked about hitting
good pups and he talked about the audio part of that,
where that was a good sound. Your bunker shots have

(45:49):
always had a very unique So why is that? And
what can players take from rhythm and tempo in a
bunker that can help them so and.

Speaker 2 (46:05):
That's going to come down to length as well, So
I mean, at a minimum you want to be going
to vertical on both sides in terms of the sound.
Bob Vok that was his genius. He had come over
for two weeks before the British Open. He'd be out
at Loch Plowman and he'll be listening to the sound.
So he hit a few chip shots and while you

(46:26):
be there talking about yeah, I feel this and I
like to feel that, he would just say, give that
to me, I'll be back in five minutes. Off he'll go.
He'll do some grind to come back. Give it to you.
He hit some shots. Wow, that feels faster, It feels better.
But he would listen to the soundbob in the sand.
Same thing, just old school genius where there's no numbers,
know nothing, but he could tell one of two things

(46:49):
that when you're in the bunker room, when you're swinging
your sand wedge in the sand, just have some practice wings.
The sands should feel one of two things. It should
feel light is the first, and then the sandwaves should
feel fast through the sand. They are the two things.
They are the two key elements that you want to
start to pay attention to. So if it starts to

(47:09):
slow down and the sand feels heavy, could be technique.
Could be also the other thing where the bounce, and
it might not be suited for the actual sand. So
if you don't have much bounce and it's quite a heavy,
heavy sand surface, then we're sure even trying to like
come back in there and like expose the bounce or
I have to expose it too much, but still you
might have that draggy, heavy sensation where it's slowing down.

(47:32):
But it should feel like you're lighting a match, you know,
just see it out. So I used to do a
thing like the line drill was fantastic.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah, I've seen that online. It's really good. But explain
that one.

Speaker 2 (47:43):
So, and that's basically just entering the sand at the
front point of the line that you will actually draw
into sound you want to be taken.

Speaker 1 (47:50):
So just draw a straight line, you know. Imagine you're
hitting a shot where the ball would.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Be yep, and you basically just scour one line. So
you just grab your sandwich basically of your soul and
just drag it in the sand. Get quite heavy. So
obviously the wider the channel that you will actually scribe
into the sand, obviously the easier it's going to be.
But you basically want to start get the ball position
on your sternum or the line should I say, which
is going to be almost the reference to the ball,

(48:16):
but then just start to swing. As you swing. Gary player,
the step through drill genius, just fantastic of playing a
shot and literally just stepping through and walking towards the target.
That's really good for your sequence of actually getting the
arms down and then you pressure out of the ground
and go. So if the arms go too soon you
leave the body behind, you feel that disconnection. If your

(48:38):
body goes too soon you leave the arms behind, you
feel that disconnection. But the line drill is fantastic for
just that flow of the length and the continuous flow
and energy of just taking the line back and forth,
and the idea of.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
And for people listening Romie, when you've got the line
in the sand, you want your impact to be forward
of the line, not behind the.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Line, basically right on the edge of the forward channel
right there at that point. And what you're looking for
is a depth of consistency. Let's say you might hit
twenty shots in a row where you just want to
walk through. You're looking at the depth that wants to
remain the same, and there's also a width there's a splash.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
It's kind of like a like a rugby American football
sized dibit where they kind of look like a little
bit of that kind of you know, oval kind of shape.
Speed wise from mean, I think so many golfers that
I see I always say the concept is the ball

(49:44):
is in the bunker, so it's my dad always says
it's easier shot in golf because you're not hitting the ball,
you're hitting the sand. Yeah, but I think that players
forget that because we're not kitting the ball. We're hitting
saying you've got to make a big enough swing with
enough speed to get the sand out of the bunker.

(50:05):
So if you're hitting shots in the sand, that you're
just at a practice swing with no ball. If the
sand's not getting out of the bunker, yes, the ball's
not going to be getting out of the bunker. Length
of backswing running on bunker shots is there a I
know it's player dependent. I know everybody's different, but yeah,
as is generalization. Do you see backswings where people struggle

(50:29):
to where they don't make a big enough backswing or
do you see players making too big of a backskin.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Well, I think it just depends on the rhythm. So
the rhythm actually has to be instagrat it's a shorter
swing for a particular length, then the tempo just has
to be up tempoed in the backswing. I think too
many people around the greens, they've got a particular speed
in which they swing back in and it's always that
slow tempo. And then if it's a short, shorter shot,

(51:00):
that kind of matches that tempo so they don't over accelerate,
but if it goes back slow like like that slow
deliberate swing, but they're trying to get a loft of
golf club further, the rhythm and tempo is really important
for the fact that if you now over accelerate because
you know you don't have the energy or the actual
momentum in the backswing, that's when you'll have that extra

(51:23):
grab or that extra and then you really lean.

Speaker 1 (51:27):
Yeah, And I think that's the other thing that chaffleen
in the full swing is for the majority of the
higher handicapped golfers listening to this part, chaffleen is the
holy grail right to compress your irons right. You've talked
about Macogrady had great iron compression. To be a great
iron player, you've got to have, you know, that handle

(51:47):
leading forward, the club coming in last. But I remember
going out to TPI and with Greg and Dave Phillips,
and they were looking at kind of release patterns for
short game, so that full swing pattern to where if
you're on three D, the lower body starts the downswing,

(52:08):
then the upper body, then the arms, than the golf club.
They were saying when they put players in the best
chippers in the world and the best bunker players in
the world, and they put them on three D in
it was the opposite. The arms and club were firing first,
the body second. I think what you said there for
the average golfer is they make in a bunker, they
make a short backswing. Their internal GPS knows they don't

(52:32):
have enough energy to do this. Now they try and
put the speed in on the downswing and then they
get chef lean in the bunker, which is the death move.
My grandfather did an article I think he was on
the cover of Golf Digests in the seventies. He grew
up at wingfoot. I mean he was the head pro
at wing foot. Deep bunker's huge highlight. His thing was

(52:55):
learn to get out of the bunker with one hand,
right handed. So he had my death and all the
boys get one handed, right handed bunker shots. And I
think if you do that, that's a great way for
you to feel the length, but also the rhythm and
the speed. Do you feel there is a pattern in

(53:20):
left or right hands in bunkers. Do you think it
is a more right handed steal if you're a right
handed player or what role do you feel the left
hand in bunker's rummy play Not much.

Speaker 2 (53:34):
I feel it's more. I feel it's more to pivot
definitely like the setting. Yeah, sure the hand's going to hinge.
But for me, once I throw this thing back out again,
my left side is saying relatively in position, shoulder remains
in position. I say's in position. It's the pivot that's
going to take it around. But again, and.

Speaker 1 (53:53):
The pivot comes from the upper body rummy or the
lower body in the bunker.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
It's a combination, but you need that you need the
lower body set in a position where the pervise can
internally rotate for the upper body to then be able
to move through it as well. But I always say
that the the bunker action is like the is the
soul of the gold swing. For me, there's lots of
there's lots of nuggets within the bunker action in terms

(54:19):
of the lateral the ground force that you start to use.
I did some stuff on the smart to move plates.
I'm up at somewhere around about one hundred and near
one hundred and eighty one percent of my as a
body weight percentage force out of the ground. There's lots,
you know, for a longer bunker shot, so so there's

(54:39):
no ground force in bunkers. Yeah, for certain shots, yes,
I would probably say that's a myth. Shorter bunker shots
you won't be getting as much out, but still you
need to be able to use that body that pivot.
And I feel as I was more right arm for
me within the motion. So if this arm sort of

(55:00):
stores and wants to move more internal, you're kind of cooked.
So for me, I go more external, keep it external,
So I now need to move it more down in
front of me with my pivot and start to throw out.
So in terms of shifting your low point up, your
right humors here can actually play its part by moving
more across the body, so I don't need to use

(55:22):
my body to pivot. But if I go this way
and go that way, now that's more leading edge down,
so you kind of got no chance from there, so
being able to move the more more of the arm
down and lengthen out and straightened with the pivot. But
this arm's got to start to fire. But when they
say get the arms down, it's not get the arms

(55:44):
down and do this. I'm trying to keep this left pole. Yes,
trying to keep this left up my arms. Yes, so
this actually has its own circumference right here. So what
gets the golf club up can be yes, bit of
the hinge my arm bending stead right right there can
go up to nearly what nearly hundred and eighty degrees,

(56:04):
So I mean bending my arm that's getting the golf
club up. My arm lifts as it comes back down again,
I better start to straighten this out to get that
handle back down to pivot through. So this wants to
stay up. You're cooked. And that's where most people live,
is they live in this world here?

Speaker 1 (56:23):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (56:23):
Now, yeah, that's trying to expose the leading edge with
a spine angle that's now tilted, with an arm that's
internally rotated, and then you're just basically now just shoveling
it out because they got to get it down. But
that's that's like a common that's a common area, isn't
it with most things?

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Ball positioned Ronny, any cheap code that you see in
a bunker from a ball position standpoint, I mean, I
tend to see players over the course of you know,
a year in the bunker have the golf fall too
far back in their stands.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
Yep. I sometimes too far forward, but it's just your stone.
If you think about the arc and you get these
arms back down again, just keep it draw that. Basically, yes,
it can be like one ball in front of your sternum,
but you have to understand that loft is loft and
you can't add to it. So loft is loft, you

(57:15):
can't add to it. So by having it up this
way too far, if you can get your right arm
moving and keep it moving, moving, moving, moving, and hold
this wrist angle, you can throw out. Later it's going
to get to a point because my arm is it
moves across from a hinging point that starts to move
above the ground. That's only a point where you can

(57:35):
get this right arm extended and throw out until that
arm everything you can't you can't get the ground at
a point that keeps going. So having it too far
forward and then people trying to get to it that
way is the death move that starts to move it
that way. So just having it here in your sternum,
open up that face, keep your sent as centered, and
then just try and return it back to your center

(57:57):
and just understand that that loft is what it's generating.
The lift, it's not. It's not the interpretation of the
ball position. Why up here and then hanging back or
you know, trying to hit down on it because the
ball position is back now I'm going to hit down
on it. That's not the case. I just want to
hit through it, not not down at it, per se.
I want to hit through it, not And yes, we're

(58:19):
having like this, we're taking some sand down. But if
I bury my feet in and I come down two inches,
if I just basically I'm hovering the golf club, if
I just come back down and just extend to where
my low point should be, if you think about it,
if I'm standing on grass, my devit goes underneath pretty
much where I stand. If I bury myself down to
the ground, I'm not even going underneath where I'm actually

(58:41):
burying myself into. It's probably only getting back to level,
isn't it. So but you better get this thing just
passing through the sand. At least hit through it. So yeah,
and you're not trying to lift it up. It's yeah.
Look it's you kind of For me, I kind of
have to get into the actual individual's mindset and see
what is what is difficulty is in terms of like
what his pattern is before you can actually make some

(59:04):
significant change to that individual. But there's definitely some some
key concepts there that you probably take away that would
definitely help you.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
Bunkering wedge set up from a bounce standpoint for the
golfer's out there, Ronnie, what do you use for a
lag edge out of a bunker and is there kind
of a love weedge or sand wedge that is going
to be versatile for the average golfer, But your lob

(59:32):
wedge and your sandwich bounce wise, what grind do you play?
What do you like? And then what do you think
are some bounce grind configurations that could help players?

Speaker 2 (59:44):
I think, universally, I think the Vokey eight degree M
the m grant in the sixty I think that is
universally just a fairly stock stand and go to for
I'd say ninety percent of the touring pros that are
out there across the board. So it's got a slightly wider,
wider soul with a obviously with the ribbon taken off

(01:00:05):
the back, that's perfect. I use a a grind which
is just basically it's a bit of old school. This
is a this is actually an old This is actually
ninety ninety six, actually finny enough, fifty six to eleven.
That was ground. So that's basically my soul right there.
So that's in an a grind. There's no ribbon, it's
just a flat square literally nineteen seventies grind. So but

(01:00:29):
the K grind Star was quite impressive. I just used
that recently. That was an awesome grind. I don't mind
the T in a four. But I think also as well,
it's horses for courses, isn't it. But a lot of
the members we've got a course here Lake carrying up
in Perth. The bunkers are notoriously firm, and yeah, the
pro shop shouldn't stock a sand wedge that's above a

(01:00:52):
four degree te, simple as that. But I'm a twenty
four handicapper, yep, use this te so that's going to
give yourself the best opportunity to get out of this bunker.
So I think I think for the average player or
the you know, the players that are off higher handicaps,
they can have some really good technique around the greens
as well. Like I think really just depends not so

(01:01:15):
much your handicap, but how you feel your game sits
within your actual handicap, like how you actually how diverse
you are around the greens or whatever it may be.
Just because you're playing for higher handicap, it doesn't mean
that you're not proficient around the greens. So I think
sometimes you can four. I've actually coached a lot of
players playing off eighteen that ship exceptionally well with a

(01:01:37):
four degree bounce. But if you took the number off
it and just gave them the sandwich and just said
chip this, they go, wow, that that feels amazing. Yeah,
I'll use that. And you say that's four degrees bounce
and they go, oh my god, I'm using four degrees.
So and then they got in their head that they're
using no bounce. It's not that it doesn't have any bounce,
it's just that it's less, but it doesn't make it
any more effective. So but yeah, definitely, if you're a

(01:01:59):
bit more of a link and you're a bit more
down on it than sure, yeah you can get away
with more balance. But Terry Gale actually a legend Perth
Golf a year, played in Japan and all over the
players one in Europe on the seniors, and he's won
over sixty tournaments. But he came down to raw Perth
and we're chipping off a fairly bare lie. But he

(01:02:19):
had an old golden ram I think it was. But
that golden ram, honestly car that must have had it
looked like twenty degrees a bounce on it, and he
had his hands way forward off this firm. Why it
was just chopping down on this thing, old school, you know,
just elbow Paul and just had this really choppy low
ball spinningched like kemny really low. Once he's done it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Spin it.

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Yeah, it must have been like forty degrees of dynamic
life just jamming this thing, playing to a short pin,
but just gave him a voki. Yeah, you could definitely
get a lot more versatile with it, but that was
just he was just an old school and that's just
how he chipped. And yeah, he's sort of like he
really struggled with the new technology going like less of
a bounce. So it's a bit of technique. So if

(01:03:02):
you want to change your bound to change your technique.
But at the same time, if you don't want to
do it, you're gonna have to find the right bounce.

Speaker 1 (01:03:09):
For you on you. Lastly, Romi is kind of one
of the guys that kind of grew up with Adam
Scott and stuff like that Australian golf. What do you
think about where the Australian golf is right now? What
do you think about this crop of young players coming
out of Australia and then you know the guys that
are still doing Adam Scott, you know Cam Smith, these
type of guys. I mean, Scotty's career has been I

(01:03:31):
think just such an amazing example of just yeah, class elegance. Yeah,
but he's golf swing, his technique, he's still playing great
golf at this age. It's amazing it is.

Speaker 2 (01:03:49):
And look he's giving back. He's I think he's the
only Cam Smith does a great job with Australian golf too.
He comes back and plays and he's given his time
and he's his expertise to a lot of the young
kids coming through. His programs with Golf Australia are amazing.
And I think Scotty he's come back and played just

(01:04:11):
about every single year in Australia. So that's a full
credit to Scotty what he's given back to the game
here in Australia. He's been a tremendous role model. So
guys like Min Wou that are coming through, you know,
just a phenomenal talent. Perth boy as well, so played
a bit of golf with men before he turned phenomenal athlete,
incredible golfer and also cracking lad as well. Gives back

(01:04:34):
to the game. Just loves life and I think, you know,
for Scotty, he was a bit more of the old
school gentleman, always has been, and I think Min Wu
is probably the next gen that's just coming through. I mean,
I don't the social media side, and I've probably missed
that that evolutionary sort of trend in in in the

(01:04:58):
progression of yeah, how God has played these days, but
and how it's promoted. So he's doing a great job
with that as well, just exposing the game. But I mean,
the golf is fantastic here in Australia. But I think
there's a bit of a disconnect between We've had a
lot of players that have transitioned. You know, your Stuart
Appleby's your Robert Allenby's your nic ohearns your guy, Your

(01:05:20):
Peter Lonard's Steven I go, Yeah, Stephen Leani's guy there's
so many of them that on a world scale sort
of took their promising abot Koreas to that next level
and then competed on major stages all around the world.
So I think maybe there's just a bit of a

(01:05:40):
disconnect at the moment. There's been a few that have
that have come through and have sort of kicked on,
But for the quality of talent that's here in Australia,
I think there's just a slight question mark as to
why or how. Maybe the just the general competition around
the world is just is just lifting and doors are
becoming less and less then yes, just becoming harder together

(01:06:05):
to get you with the door. So but there's some
crazy talent, but just for whatever reason, they're just they're
just not quite translating to that to that next step
at the moment. So but I'm sure there'll be the
We've always produced some incredible talent one our weather and
the fact that we can play year round, so I
think that's a huge contributor.

Speaker 1 (01:06:24):
And the golf courses we mean, I think the golf
courses you have down in Australia contribute to the type
of players that have come out of Australia because the
golf courses in you know, the really good sand Belt
golf courses down in Alls are very very different than
the average European Tour event, the Asian Tour event, and

(01:06:46):
then you know the golf we play in the US
and the PGA Tour. I mean you couldn't you know,
Memorial couldn't be any different than the sand Belt golf courses, right,
I mean, it's just it's a completely different an animal.
An old school East Coast US Open type golf course
is very different than the golf courses all the guys

(01:07:09):
grew up in that have come out of Australia.

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
Yeah, and I think as well, it's probably not in
Australia that doesn't have a good short game or is
not profession around the greens. So and I think that
in terms of Europe, a lot of the grass is
cut very close to the edges, so the ball runs through,
you don't really have those runoffs that's going twenty thirty
off a real hard pan Lie idea. So I think
you really need to learn how to use the balance.

(01:07:32):
I think from an educational perspective, I think there's some
amazing coaches in Australia. I think that's probably to back
that up is one thing I think Melbourne gets a
little bit. I think the only problem is they get
a little bit with the grass that they playoff, which
is Cooch for the majority, gets a little bit one dimensional,
same as Queenslanders. I think Queenslanders are probably the only

(01:07:53):
ones that probably get a bit one dimension with it
chipping because the grass there is so graining to be
a little bit more diverse with your technique is tough
to do. But they're normally absolute ball strikers. We have
some of the best players coming out of Queensland that
are just absolutely just balld errors. Perth is probably a

(01:08:14):
great combination of both where we have the carqu and
the couch, so we have a probably fifty to fifty
blend of growing up on two variants which are very
very different and probably fairly, you know what, pretty close
to most grass as a blend that you play around
the world. So I think for I think that's probably
advantage in Perth is that we've got some really really

(01:08:35):
nice chipping areas in which and grasses that we can
chip off of that are difficult but still allows you
to be creative and not so much one dimensional. So
I think Melbourne just has that one grass gets a
bit one dimensional. If they come across here to Perth
and play off the kaks, like what the hell is
this stuff? They go to queens, they do the same

(01:08:56):
things like what is this stuff? So yeah, I think
Australia is quite unique. And when you start to play
around Australia, you start to work these blends out, these
different variances. So yeah, it kind of just gets you
ready just to go out there. And yeah, there's no
real there's no surprises out of the big bad world,
so none that we sort of can't handle anyway.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Well, R mean, I mean we could. I mean, we
could spend another four hours talking about all this stuff.
I think it's really cool that you're you're taking kind
of your knowledge from you know, a very very distinguished
and very successful playing career and kind of giving that
information to the next generation of golfers in your coaching career.
So and then we could do another podcast just on

(01:09:41):
cycling and bikes and stuff like that. We'll get to that.
Brett always great to talk to you, and best of
luck and for everyone listening. Follow Brett on on Instagram.
You will see some disgustingly wicked short game shots that
he pulls off both indoors and out Yours, Ronny, thanks
for talking to us Clode, some of which comes to

(01:10:03):
you almost every week. Thanks everyone for listening.