April 28, 2025 • 28 mins
There are two versions of Motaz Azaiza. There is the one etched into the consciousness of millions, lens slung over his shoulder, eyes bloodshot, not just from sleepless nights, but from witnessing what no one should ever have to.The man who didn't just document Israel's genocide in Gaza, he became a portal, a lifeline, a resistance not of weapons, but of truth.But then there is the other Motaz.The one I met at the web summit in Doha away from the rubble and sirens. The man, not the symbol. Still fierce, still unfiltered, but softer too, honest in a way that hurts. Human, in a way the internet often forgets to allow.We sat down, not to perform grief, but to process it. To talk, not for the algorithm, but for ourselves, about what it means to carry trauma while the world scrolls past. About how visibility is both a lifeline and a wound.This isn't an interview, it's a heart to heart, between two Palestinians, shaped by different histories, speaking from different wounds, but bound by the same longing for justice, for connection, for a future we have never been allowed to imagine. Don't forget to hit subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone who needs to hear it.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In a world full of noise, silence is no longer
an option. I'm Ahmed the Dean, and this is out loud,
a space where truth speaks, systems are questioned, and stories
come alive. Each week, I sit down with voices bold
enough to challenge the status quo, because if we don't
say it out loud.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Who will Martes? Ah, let's just start really casually. I
hope this isn't like a lot of the interviews you've
been doing. I want to be a little bit more
human and maybe less political.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Okay, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
There are two versions of Martes as isay. There's the
one etched into the consciousness of millions, the lens slung
over his shoulder, eyes bloodshot not just from sleepless nights,
but from witnessing what no one should ever have to.
The man who didn't just document the genocide in Gaza.
He became a portal, a lifeline, a resistance, not of weapons,
(01:00):
but of truth. But then there's the other Martes, the
one I met at the WEB summit in Doha, away
from the rubble and sirens, the man not the symbol,
still fierce, still unfiltered, but softer, too honest, in a
way that hurts human in a way the Internet often
forgets to allow.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I used to listen to Julia Botros. Yeah, he is amazing.
What's your favorite song.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
In? That's it.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
We sat down not to perform grief, but to process it,
to talk not for the algorithm, but for ourselves about
what it means to carry trauma while the world scrolls past,
about how visibility is both a lifeline and a wound.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
This isn't an interview.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
It's a heart to heart between two Palestinians, shaped by
different histories, speaking from different wounds, but bound by the
same longing for justice, for connection, for a future we
have never been allowed to imagine. This is Martaz. As
I say out loud.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Here at the Web Summit, It's clear that you have
become a symbol of resilience and truth for so many people.
But how has that actually shaped or even distorted your
own sense of self?
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Okay, first, why I feel so confident about myself what
I'm doing this Because I'm speaking my truth by your reality.
What is happening, what happened to me, what I lived,
what I experienced in Gaza. So I feel like I'm
honest one dred percent. I don't have to lie. I
(02:54):
have all the right in my hope. I'm talking about
the most noble cause in the whole world, the Pelsenian cause.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And has this changed the way you view yourself? Has
it changed your personality or your sense of purpose?
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Yeah, maybe living in an atmosphere or like Gaza, with
all this pressure on you, like a young guy in Gaza,
like full of struggle, your life full of struggle make
you makes you feel like sometimes you use violence in
your token the way you speak, but all what happened
(03:41):
to me or what's happening, it makes me feel okay,
I want they need to go back a little bit,
take a break, because before I respond to be more cool,
because as like as Frina Baka said before that the
way so long and need to take a breath.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
It's true. Are you able? I don't know if I
believe you that you've been taking breaths.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
I didn't take many breaths actually, but because you know
from my side, I used to be a very responsible
young man. I've been the one who's like working, even
when I was in my university, working to pay for
my defeat, for my food, for my family expensive. So
(04:32):
I was the one who's like always responsible and months
of time you fend you find yourself responsible about the
image of your country, the voice of your people. I
didn't chose to be the one who lit this behind
or is down and just choose myself. I wish sometimes
(04:52):
I want to know how to choose myself, but I
don't know. Even when I want to say, okay, I
want to have fun, when I want just take a break,
turn off the social media, turn off the phone. I
started feeling like I don't deserve this. I feel like
I don't enjoy anything I'm doing, And yeah, it gives
(05:14):
me a lot of troubles, Like since I left everything
happening to me, I'm kind of very sensitive person, but
I don't show this so much like any world, anything happening.
It goes directly to my stomach, you know, just feeling
like when you like, I'm like that, yeah, I hate this.
(05:36):
You feel it deeply, Yeah, so deep, And the same
time it takes you, like really deep to a place
that you don't want to be in.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I appreciate you being so honest. I want to ask
you because you mentioned the image of your country, the
image of Palestine, the image of Gaza, Sadly, something you
said today really resonated with me. When you were on stage,
I think you said, when asked how do the people
in Gaza feel about the world outside, you said, they
feel like you only care about Gaza when there's war there.
(06:12):
If there's no war on Gaza, they don't care about Gaza.
So I'm curious. You've captured some of the most painful
images of this genocidal war. What's an image or memory
you haven't shared with the world but that you still
feel very deeply, And it doesn't have to be of war,
just an image, something that makes you feel connected to
Gaza because I know, as you shared Nuni before we
(06:35):
got in the studio, you do want to go back
on some level.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Yeah, I don't want to go back, but I said,
I don't want to go back with empty hands. I
want to go back with something would hope would help.
I would light on the people that they deserve that
the war, to see them and know about them. I
don't want just to feel that my people are just
(07:01):
numbers for in this world, because when I left, Yeah,
among these these people, i feel like I'm just a number,
just a person. No, but I feel what happened to us.
They deserve that the whole world to know about them,
to hear them. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
For me, one of the most powerful memories out of
all your incredible work and everything you documented, was a
casual video of you singing, Oh yeah, you were packing
or you were cing with your friends.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Stacking and yeah, knowing my hair. I was like having
my yeah and just like singing and people like it.
But I didn't do it anymore because when I were
having I was like the journal journals feel like a doctor.
Sometimes there won't be like different musicians. I don't want
(07:52):
no no, no, no, and yeah yes, like anyone sing.
That's it. It wasn't anymore.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
But why not? Why don't you think? Do you think
with myself?
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Yeah you do, yeah, but it's not like you have
a good voice.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You do have a great voice, but that's not the point.
I mean, does it comfort you to sing? Because in
that video it comforted me and I think millions of
people around the world to see you find that moment
of connection with yourself. I'm just wondering, like, are you
able to do that now? Do you think are you
making time for that even when you're alone in the shower.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Or whatever sometimes with myself. Yeah, okay, good. Yeah, but
like during when I was covering and goes like you
need adrenaline, I would say yeah, yeah, yeah, so I
was like using some songs. Yeah, just continue. Like I
used to listen to Hall of Fame like eight years ago,
and I when I listen to this song, I keep
(08:50):
imagining myself and I feel like sing it for me,
this is me. So yeah, so I feel this. And
I used to listen to Julia Butros, Yeah, Julia is amazing.
What's your favorite song.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
I have Belgia? Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Sorry you being humble or do you really think you
don't have a good voice?
Speaker 4 (09:24):
No, I'm just don't have a really good voices.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Okay, So then now we know that you're not right
about everything. Okay, I appreciate you sharing that. Do you
do you ever worry that, speaking of sharing, that by
sharing so much of Gaza's suffering, people will only see
Gaza or even you through that lens as a messenger
of all that in justice, pain, and quite frankly dehumanization.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Yeah, because we were suffering before this that people when
they hear about goes.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Oh do you have internet there?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Do you have how do you have lights? Do you
have universities before even the war? So before some of
them before like twenty twenty three. We sort of feel
that people start to see that does there's a life,
there's a people to shop, stores, streets, lights and okay,
there's a lot of suffer eight hours just of electricy
some times war.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
But we have it here.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
We are here, were like come back again to the
same point. People know, Oh God, some tense war, massacres,
blood graphics, that's it does.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
And I will show.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
You the massive destruction that happened to the Zahara city
and the middle of the strip. More than fourteen residential
tower got destroyed by the Israeli air strikes. Imagine how
many people have been homeless and lost their places. Like,
doesn't need a new.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Nakaba if it makes you feel any better. When I
moved to the US when I was seventeen to study
from Egypt, a lot of people at a university in
the US asked me do you have cars in Egypt?
Do you live in pyramids in Egypt? No?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Forget about it. It's like a Bible and dis I
don't know. They are so weird. Oh my likes yeah,
like I I guess, so like a study that seventy
percent of the US be able like to have a passport.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Even yeah apparently. Yeah, So I don't know, We'll we'll
have to do some research. But you know, I ask
you these questions about your own sort of aspirations and dreams,
because how do I put this? Like, you know, I'm
a lot of things. I have a lot of privilege. Yeah,
but I identify as a Palestinian first, even though I
(11:56):
never lived in Palestine, and I'm aware that a lot
of Palestinians when I first went there, even in the
West Bank, we're like, but you're not really Palestinian because
you don't know what it's like to be Palestinian. And
I know that even in Gaza, people in Gaza refer
to themselves as Gazans, or the media refers to them
as Gazans. And there's all this division right between the
West Bank and Gaza to many other which is like
(12:18):
nineteen forty eight. Do you feel like the world understands
or believes that Palestinians is an entity just like any
other ethnic identity, or do you think that the division
over decades of colonialism and all these things has in
fact divided us, not just politically between Fatah and Hamas
(12:41):
or this or that, but even in terms of the people. Yeah,
you do.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Yeah, like to be honest, even when like when when
someone from those banks like come to Gaza, people of
Gaza's like do a bar tea on the board, Oh,
bring like the drums and keep dancing and yeah, something big,
(13:07):
that's he coming to Gauz. Yeah, we got access and
not a lot of people was luck to come to Gas.
Just that people who have like.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
A lot of.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Money especially yeah, circumstances exactly. So it's still and the
people from Gaza who go out, some of the people
who have money and a lot of cancer patients and
these things, and when they come to it kind of
you know, feel weird, like they are just palsinius, like,
but you keep feeling that there's something different. You know,
(13:39):
we never meant he never met, Like.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
You mean that they're different groups of people.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Yeah, you feel like it looks different really, yeah, and
it looks kind of more shining the.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Ones from outside. Yeah, no, I think you guys signed
the brightest. But yeah, we can disagree on that. But
but my question was do you think that division, which
is obviously deliberate part of colonialism. Do you think that
that's a big thing that's preventing freedom and dignity for
all of the Palestinians between the rivers and.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Before before talking about freeing Palestine from the accubation, we
need to free ourselves as Pealsinians who live in a
cubied Palestine from division. Yeah, even if you want to
run from it, we're not. You don't want to talk
about it, but you can't ignore it. Like when yeah,
(14:30):
when the genocide happened in Gaza, and even some Palstinians
were like watching. But in the same time, you can't
ask him to do anything because if he will do
he will be erased. So what should I do? Why
should I blame blame him? So from from my place,
I said, okay, not blaming any Palsinium for anything, because
(14:52):
he's not facing like an occubation. Just he's facing like
a war machine that love to kill, love to destroy,
to raise. Yeah, and alone without a worm and without
any means. So sometimes say okay, don't do anything, just
please continue sending your children to school. We want like
to have a good leaders in the future.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I appreciate you being so honest because I think we
need to be more honest about ourselves and the world.
That is, it's not just about you know, everything connects
for better or worse. Yeah, do you ever feel like
people expect you to always be the war photographer? And
do you see yourself stepping into maybe a different role?
Do you dream about being something else?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
I dream about be like a wildlife photographer. I want
to just shoot animals, capture animals. I don't want to
capture any humans anymore. That's enough. Animals more peaceful, that's enough.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
And I think nature and animals, like I prefer dogs
to humans. But that's a whole other podcast. If I'm honest,
I mean, I know that's gonna upset some people. But anyhow,
if you weren't holding a camera, what might you want
to be doing to I mean, I know you just said,
but if you weren't filming wildlife or documenting wildlife, is
there what you say?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
No, I will be barmedic, I'll be maybe a doctor,
I'll be I'm already first responder.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Well, I was just going to say, I remember that
video of you in the car with those two children
in your lab.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
Yeah, some people thought that I'm just acting like but
I'm already like one of the National Disaster Response Team. Yeah,
I'm well trained to your disasters. I'm well trained to
be like to provide the first aid of like psychological
first aid, you know. So sometimes I was like more
cool than the Bible when something happened, because I'm I'm
(16:47):
trained for this.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, so a healer and a photographer and a holder
of space. Can I ask you this sort of annoying question,
what does freedom feel feel like to you? Not just politically,
not just Palestine and the freedom, but deeply personally between
you and yourself? What do you understand freedom to be.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
M It's kind of hard to ask me this question
because I never experienced a freedom, like what freedom, because yeah,
that's my closest pig, and I never felt free in Palestine.
I felt free from inside my home, like no, I
walked like a king there. It's my place, my land.
(17:31):
But like outside, I feel like I'm just like anyone
else here, you know, like like I'm normal person, regular person,
but gazza, Yeah, I feel like a king. Yeah, my place,
I just I.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Knew, like do you miss that feeling?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:51):
But the problem what happened to me? I used like
to walk in like some streets or like in GA's video,
So I'm what does are how are you now? The
problem is like the same happening but in New York
street or so you feel like, Okay, what's this is weird?
Like yeah, so yeah, it's it's weird and my experience
(18:13):
is really like unexpected. Yeah, and it's never happened like
in this way.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
You've been so gracious. And I'm saying this as someone
who respects you and admires you, but also who on
some level can relate to you in the sense that
when I'm in a public place because of my work,
sometimes people come up to me and they want to
have an exchange or communication and maybe not to the
same extent as you. But what I'm saying is like
I noticed that I sometimes, let's be honest, you have
(18:46):
to sort of put a mask on, or you have
to kind of treat people with the way that you
maybe are not in the mood to take a photo.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
I should like I sometimes expect people to understand this.
But the problem like who like, when I meet people,
they feel like they will never maybe meet me again,
so they want to use the moment and sometimes yeah,
I'm really tired, I'm exhausted. I can't and everyone like
when you meet someone, he will speak for you for
like five minutes, but you just want But from my story,
(19:20):
I have like dozens of people, dozens or thousands I said,
dozn'ts by mistaken sorry, but.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, what I mean is there's so many people.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Yeah, so many and everyone will like think that he
wanted to tell me his own story with me, like, Okay,
I really appreciate this, but when I want to say
it like I'm sorry, I can't, I will look like
some kind of like.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Rude.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Yeah, but I don't know why how most people I'm
really tired then, and at the same time, you're up. Shit,
I appreciate anyone else you have, like the emotions. So yeah,
you don't know what to say, and I don't. I
don't like to act like I'm a celebrity and just
sign myself and I'm not. Priscian Ronaldo from Gaza City
(20:07):
the Baso.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
I mean, I think you give him a run for
his money in a lot of ways in terms of
how you inspire people.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
No, people also say like see me as a celebrity. Yeah,
I get it, but I'm yeah, celebrity but without money,
you know, like I'm maybe one day all yeah, my
own brand and be.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Like I think you are a brand. I think you're
just really I mean, who am I to say? But
one thing I will say is celebrity is overrated. Yeah,
and but this.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Show how they are taking step by step When you
got like this fame once of time, you know how
to act, how to do?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
What should I do?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Like? Why should I think you're doing a great job?
If I can say it's trying, I'm not trying. I
think I think I need to say that to you,
not only because I'm older than you, but I do
want to say one thing. I mean, I'm forty and
I still haven't mastered or really become good at creating
boundaries and enforcing them, not just with strangers you know,
in the fame context, but anyhow, I hope you become
(21:08):
much better at boundaries than I was in my twenties.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
And hopefully, hopefully or maybe I'll want to a beer.
This is luck the field that I have. I feel
you rather just want, you know, disappear. Yeah, well maybe
you should. I don't know where like I do it,
I can help you. I know, people from hender Ros
know me. I don't know how, like from where hender Ros,
I don't know ye yeah, yeah, like people know me.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
There, everyone knows you everywhere. No, no, but I can
take you. We could talk offline without when we're not
about a place. I mean, I won't take you, but
I can send you to a friend of mine who
has a small island somewhere. I think it might might
help you and maybe help the world anyhow. You've become
a voice for Gaza, that's undeniable. But who do you
turn to when you need to be heard.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Like her?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Like what when you need someone to hear to let
h Sorry.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Okay, a stranger?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Really? Yeah, you actually do that?
Speaker 4 (22:07):
I did twice.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Really can you tell me just a little bit about
one of those experiences?
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Well, just you know, like if you're you're like.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
On a bus or on a plane or.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
No, like you met him for the first time, you
don't know him. They know me.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
But I.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Found myself like I'm talking to him, like I tell
him my whole story. Didn't I leave? I don't know,
Like I don't even have a touch with them.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
That's what I do with my therapist.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Yeah, sometimes you know, I'm trying to commit to the terravist.
But I even sound like no, I got it. Yeah, yeah,
I'm trying. There's reluctance. Now you got to keep trying.
What's something you've been afraid to admit out loud? But
you might be ready to share with me? Pretend I'm
a stranger. M like something I did in yeas or
like I did.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
No, just something that like maybe you feel and you
think about you've come to realize maybe with time.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
I mean sometimes maybe I wish I used some lies,
you know, like to just protect myself. Yeah, being honest
in this world is not really a good thing. Yeah,
be able will not accept you of like being completely honest.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah I can really.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Yeah, Like sometimes I feel like when I meet people
who are like who never lived in Gaza, and they
make you feel that they understand your stitution more than you, Like,
how how dare you?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (23:31):
You know, like how dare you? Like I'm the one
who's living there. He never talked about Gaza before now,
So I sometimes.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
You just go along.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
I just yay, you know, like I I can't go
along with it with this talk about what you're talking
about because you're kind of you never believe you know,
you just stick with idea that we are like machines,
you don't get tired.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And yeah, okay, fine, let's destroy as well. Okay with
what with my phone?
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Like I'm alone, I'm military alone.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Nobody.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Like when I was like in Gaz, I was talking
about like at least something to interguzz with their tanks
or something to protect the civilians, but nobody, and I
found this talk will cause me a lot of troubles.
I will not be able to travel easily from the
Arab countries. So this is what I hate about I
had about the Middle East that there is no freedom
speech and you need Okay, like I go some sometimes
(24:32):
I go to Arab countries. Okay, they some of them
like security to check my phone and open like what's
up and want to check my pictures? And who you're
talking about talking with? And yeah, okay, so both something
about us that we are good and blah blah blah blah.
Like I went to the US to Dallas Airport. I
(24:52):
found two policemen hugging me when I arrived and opened
like a vib away from me, and we appreciate what
you did for a country. Didn't check my phone. I've
been like under an investigation with the National Security for
four hours, didn't even touch my phone.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Why you do this? Like?
Speaker 4 (25:10):
And the problem when you tell them when you face
them that they lot us down.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
They don't like this. So do you feel like you
don't say it because you just don't want upset people
when it's so upsetting Bob, But it's obvious.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
I want.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
I want to make sure that I can go back
to I understand, and I want to make sure that
I get every help even sometimes when I'm okay, you're good.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Listen, I want to help the people. So sometimes you're
on a table and this is what how the reason
the region looks like. So I'm not gonna change it.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
That's why I love kids, because kids are honest and
it works.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, I was. I used to be to be like
a liar kid.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So I used to.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Kid but my mom but my mouth.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
We have that in common.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Last question. If there was only one photo or one
sentence that you can leave behind in this world to
remember Gaza by, what might it be like a bell Gazza? Yeah,
something that for you, being Aben Hallack really is Gaza
(26:26):
in one sentence or in one image even a memory
that you have, like when you know, when when I
think of my time in New York or Egypt, like
I have certain visuals or sentences. I mean, maybe nothing
comes to mind. Why are you laughing?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
What's the meaning of going?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, like the.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Who like always grab attention and feels like he's the
only one in the world. Times No Gaza. You know,
we used to feel that in Gaza, that because we
are in Gaza so special and we are like the
special thing in the whole world, center of the world. Yeah,
you know, yeah exactly. Yeah, so I've I want to
tell like people don't don't think about trying to to
(27:04):
go to Gaza. They think about going to bars, going
to blah blah blah blah blah. Don't to have vacation
here and there, but not not really becauesn't it's not
under a schedule the plan. Just pray for Gazza, donate
for Gaza. But for sorry, there's no airport after his
rope destroy the airport and there's no way to enter.
(27:26):
So yeah, so we feel that sometimes, but actually the
truth is that we the world doesn't look like this
to us.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
For sorry, I know you're going to Amra soon when
you envision your future. Do you see yourself in Gaza? Yeah, yeah,
you really do.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
Yeah, but not for staying there forever or like, okay,
I just want to advi this when I want to
go back, when I want to get out.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
That's it.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Like to be like a play step that's easy to
travel too. Oh, that's it, and bring people to.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I think that's maybe a question that people should be
asking themselves. Yeah, I appreciate your time, thanks so much,
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
I'm Ahmed Dean and this is out loud, where silence
ends and the real conversation begins. If this conversation moved
you hit subscribe, leave a review, and share it with
someone who needs to hear it. You can find us
on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your shows. Until next time, remember to stay loud.
In a world full of noise, silence is no longer
an option. I'm Ahmed the Dean, and this is out loud,
a space where truth speaks, systems are questioned, and stories
come alive. Each week, I sit down with voices bold
enough to challenge the status quo, because if we don't
say it out loud.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Who will Martes? Ah, let's just start really casually. I
hope this isn't like a lot of the interviews you've
been doing. I want to be a little bit more
human and maybe less political.
Speaker 3 (00:36):
Okay, that's cool.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
There are two versions of Martes as isay. There's the
one etched into the consciousness of millions, the lens slung
over his shoulder, eyes bloodshot not just from sleepless nights,
but from witnessing what no one should ever have to.
The man who didn't just document the genocide in Gaza.
He became a portal, a lifeline, a resistance, not of weapons,
(01:00):
but of truth. But then there's the other Martes, the
one I met at the WEB summit in Doha, away
from the rubble and sirens, the man not the symbol,
still fierce, still unfiltered, but softer, too honest, in a
way that hurts human in a way the Internet often
forgets to allow.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
I used to listen to Julia Botros. Yeah, he is amazing.
What's your favorite song.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
In? That's it.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
We sat down not to perform grief, but to process it,
to talk not for the algorithm, but for ourselves about
what it means to carry trauma while the world scrolls past,
about how visibility is both a lifeline and a wound.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
This isn't an interview.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
It's a heart to heart between two Palestinians, shaped by
different histories, speaking from different wounds, but bound by the
same longing for justice, for connection, for a future we
have never been allowed to imagine. This is Martaz. As
I say out loud.
Speaker 2 (02:18):
Here at the Web Summit, It's clear that you have
become a symbol of resilience and truth for so many people.
But how has that actually shaped or even distorted your
own sense of self?
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Okay, first, why I feel so confident about myself what
I'm doing this Because I'm speaking my truth by your reality.
What is happening, what happened to me, what I lived,
what I experienced in Gaza. So I feel like I'm
honest one dred percent. I don't have to lie. I
(02:54):
have all the right in my hope. I'm talking about
the most noble cause in the whole world, the Pelsenian cause.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And has this changed the way you view yourself? Has
it changed your personality or your sense of purpose?
Speaker 4 (03:18):
Yeah, maybe living in an atmosphere or like Gaza, with
all this pressure on you, like a young guy in Gaza,
like full of struggle, your life full of struggle make
you makes you feel like sometimes you use violence in
your token the way you speak, but all what happened
(03:41):
to me or what's happening, it makes me feel okay,
I want they need to go back a little bit,
take a break, because before I respond to be more cool,
because as like as Frina Baka said before that the
way so long and need to take a breath.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
It's true. Are you able? I don't know if I
believe you that you've been taking breaths.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
I didn't take many breaths actually, but because you know
from my side, I used to be a very responsible
young man. I've been the one who's like working, even
when I was in my university, working to pay for
my defeat, for my food, for my family expensive. So
(04:32):
I was the one who's like always responsible and months
of time you fend you find yourself responsible about the
image of your country, the voice of your people. I
didn't chose to be the one who lit this behind
or is down and just choose myself. I wish sometimes
(04:52):
I want to know how to choose myself, but I
don't know. Even when I want to say, okay, I
want to have fun, when I want just take a break,
turn off the social media, turn off the phone. I
started feeling like I don't deserve this. I feel like
I don't enjoy anything I'm doing, And yeah, it gives
(05:14):
me a lot of troubles, Like since I left everything
happening to me, I'm kind of very sensitive person, but
I don't show this so much like any world, anything happening.
It goes directly to my stomach, you know, just feeling
like when you like, I'm like that, yeah, I hate this.
(05:36):
You feel it deeply, Yeah, so deep, And the same
time it takes you, like really deep to a place
that you don't want to be in.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I appreciate you being so honest. I want to ask
you because you mentioned the image of your country, the
image of Palestine, the image of Gaza, Sadly, something you
said today really resonated with me. When you were on stage,
I think you said, when asked how do the people
in Gaza feel about the world outside, you said, they
feel like you only care about Gaza when there's war there.
(06:12):
If there's no war on Gaza, they don't care about Gaza.
So I'm curious. You've captured some of the most painful
images of this genocidal war. What's an image or memory
you haven't shared with the world but that you still
feel very deeply, And it doesn't have to be of war,
just an image, something that makes you feel connected to
Gaza because I know, as you shared Nuni before we
(06:35):
got in the studio, you do want to go back
on some level.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Yeah, I don't want to go back, but I said,
I don't want to go back with empty hands. I
want to go back with something would hope would help.
I would light on the people that they deserve that
the war, to see them and know about them. I
don't want just to feel that my people are just
(07:01):
numbers for in this world, because when I left, Yeah,
among these these people, i feel like I'm just a number,
just a person. No, but I feel what happened to us.
They deserve that the whole world to know about them,
to hear them. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:16):
For me, one of the most powerful memories out of
all your incredible work and everything you documented, was a
casual video of you singing, Oh yeah, you were packing
or you were cing with your friends.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Stacking and yeah, knowing my hair. I was like having
my yeah and just like singing and people like it.
But I didn't do it anymore because when I were
having I was like the journal journals feel like a doctor.
Sometimes there won't be like different musicians. I don't want
(07:52):
no no, no, no, and yeah yes, like anyone sing.
That's it. It wasn't anymore.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
But why not? Why don't you think? Do you think
with myself?
Speaker 4 (08:02):
Yeah you do, yeah, but it's not like you have
a good voice.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You do have a great voice, but that's not the point.
I mean, does it comfort you to sing? Because in
that video it comforted me and I think millions of
people around the world to see you find that moment
of connection with yourself. I'm just wondering, like, are you
able to do that now? Do you think are you
making time for that even when you're alone in the shower.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Or whatever sometimes with myself. Yeah, okay, good. Yeah, but
like during when I was covering and goes like you
need adrenaline, I would say yeah, yeah, yeah, so I
was like using some songs. Yeah, just continue. Like I
used to listen to Hall of Fame like eight years ago,
and I when I listen to this song, I keep
(08:50):
imagining myself and I feel like sing it for me,
this is me. So yeah, so I feel this. And
I used to listen to Julia Butros, Yeah, Julia is amazing.
What's your favorite song.
Speaker 3 (09:10):
I have Belgia? Yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Sorry you being humble or do you really think you
don't have a good voice?
Speaker 4 (09:24):
No, I'm just don't have a really good voices.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Okay, So then now we know that you're not right
about everything. Okay, I appreciate you sharing that. Do you
do you ever worry that, speaking of sharing, that by
sharing so much of Gaza's suffering, people will only see
Gaza or even you through that lens as a messenger
of all that in justice, pain, and quite frankly dehumanization.
Speaker 4 (09:52):
Yeah, because we were suffering before this that people when
they hear about goes.
Speaker 3 (09:57):
Oh do you have internet there?
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Do you have how do you have lights? Do you
have universities before even the war? So before some of
them before like twenty twenty three. We sort of feel
that people start to see that does there's a life,
there's a people to shop, stores, streets, lights and okay,
there's a lot of suffer eight hours just of electricy
some times war.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
But we have it here.
Speaker 4 (10:22):
We are here, were like come back again to the
same point. People know, Oh God, some tense war, massacres,
blood graphics, that's it does.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
And I will show.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
You the massive destruction that happened to the Zahara city
and the middle of the strip. More than fourteen residential
tower got destroyed by the Israeli air strikes. Imagine how
many people have been homeless and lost their places. Like,
doesn't need a new.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Nakaba if it makes you feel any better. When I
moved to the US when I was seventeen to study
from Egypt, a lot of people at a university in
the US asked me do you have cars in Egypt?
Do you live in pyramids in Egypt? No?
Speaker 4 (11:17):
Forget about it. It's like a Bible and dis I
don't know. They are so weird. Oh my likes yeah,
like I I guess, so like a study that seventy
percent of the US be able like to have a passport.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Even yeah apparently. Yeah, So I don't know, We'll we'll
have to do some research. But you know, I ask
you these questions about your own sort of aspirations and dreams,
because how do I put this? Like, you know, I'm
a lot of things. I have a lot of privilege. Yeah,
but I identify as a Palestinian first, even though I
(11:56):
never lived in Palestine, and I'm aware that a lot
of Palestinians when I first went there, even in the
West Bank, we're like, but you're not really Palestinian because
you don't know what it's like to be Palestinian. And
I know that even in Gaza, people in Gaza refer
to themselves as Gazans, or the media refers to them
as Gazans. And there's all this division right between the
West Bank and Gaza to many other which is like
(12:18):
nineteen forty eight. Do you feel like the world understands
or believes that Palestinians is an entity just like any
other ethnic identity, or do you think that the division
over decades of colonialism and all these things has in
fact divided us, not just politically between Fatah and Hamas
(12:41):
or this or that, but even in terms of the people. Yeah,
you do.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Yeah, like to be honest, even when like when when
someone from those banks like come to Gaza, people of
Gaza's like do a bar tea on the board, Oh,
bring like the drums and keep dancing and yeah, something big,
(13:07):
that's he coming to Gauz. Yeah, we got access and
not a lot of people was luck to come to Gas.
Just that people who have like.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
A lot of.
Speaker 4 (13:16):
Money especially yeah, circumstances exactly. So it's still and the
people from Gaza who go out, some of the people
who have money and a lot of cancer patients and
these things, and when they come to it kind of
you know, feel weird, like they are just palsinius, like,
but you keep feeling that there's something different. You know,
(13:39):
we never meant he never met, Like.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
You mean that they're different groups of people.
Speaker 4 (13:44):
Yeah, you feel like it looks different really, yeah, and
it looks kind of more shining the.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Ones from outside. Yeah, no, I think you guys signed
the brightest. But yeah, we can disagree on that. But
but my question was do you think that division, which
is obviously deliberate part of colonialism. Do you think that
that's a big thing that's preventing freedom and dignity for
all of the Palestinians between the rivers and.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Before before talking about freeing Palestine from the accubation, we
need to free ourselves as Pealsinians who live in a
cubied Palestine from division. Yeah, even if you want to
run from it, we're not. You don't want to talk
about it, but you can't ignore it. Like when yeah,
(14:30):
when the genocide happened in Gaza, and even some Palstinians
were like watching. But in the same time, you can't
ask him to do anything because if he will do
he will be erased. So what should I do? Why
should I blame blame him? So from from my place,
I said, okay, not blaming any Palsinium for anything, because
(14:52):
he's not facing like an occubation. Just he's facing like
a war machine that love to kill, love to destroy,
to raise. Yeah, and alone without a worm and without
any means. So sometimes say okay, don't do anything, just
please continue sending your children to school. We want like
to have a good leaders in the future.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I appreciate you being so honest because I think we
need to be more honest about ourselves and the world.
That is, it's not just about you know, everything connects
for better or worse. Yeah, do you ever feel like
people expect you to always be the war photographer? And
do you see yourself stepping into maybe a different role?
Do you dream about being something else?
Speaker 4 (15:36):
I dream about be like a wildlife photographer. I want
to just shoot animals, capture animals. I don't want to
capture any humans anymore. That's enough. Animals more peaceful, that's enough.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
And I think nature and animals, like I prefer dogs
to humans. But that's a whole other podcast. If I'm honest,
I mean, I know that's gonna upset some people. But anyhow,
if you weren't holding a camera, what might you want
to be doing to I mean, I know you just said,
but if you weren't filming wildlife or documenting wildlife, is
there what you say?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
No, I will be barmedic, I'll be maybe a doctor,
I'll be I'm already first responder.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Well, I was just going to say, I remember that
video of you in the car with those two children
in your lab.
Speaker 4 (16:24):
Yeah, some people thought that I'm just acting like but
I'm already like one of the National Disaster Response Team. Yeah,
I'm well trained to your disasters. I'm well trained to
be like to provide the first aid of like psychological
first aid, you know. So sometimes I was like more
cool than the Bible when something happened, because I'm I'm
(16:47):
trained for this.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yeah, so a healer and a photographer and a holder
of space. Can I ask you this sort of annoying question,
what does freedom feel feel like to you? Not just politically,
not just Palestine and the freedom, but deeply personally between
you and yourself? What do you understand freedom to be.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
M It's kind of hard to ask me this question
because I never experienced a freedom, like what freedom, because yeah,
that's my closest pig, and I never felt free in Palestine.
I felt free from inside my home, like no, I
walked like a king there. It's my place, my land.
(17:31):
But like outside, I feel like I'm just like anyone
else here, you know, like like I'm normal person, regular person,
but gazza, Yeah, I feel like a king. Yeah, my place,
I just I.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Knew, like do you miss that feeling?
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:51):
But the problem what happened to me? I used like
to walk in like some streets or like in GA's video,
So I'm what does are how are you now? The
problem is like the same happening but in New York
street or so you feel like, Okay, what's this is weird?
Like yeah, so yeah, it's it's weird and my experience
(18:13):
is really like unexpected. Yeah, and it's never happened like
in this way.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
You've been so gracious. And I'm saying this as someone
who respects you and admires you, but also who on
some level can relate to you in the sense that
when I'm in a public place because of my work,
sometimes people come up to me and they want to
have an exchange or communication and maybe not to the
same extent as you. But what I'm saying is like
I noticed that I sometimes, let's be honest, you have
(18:46):
to sort of put a mask on, or you have
to kind of treat people with the way that you
maybe are not in the mood to take a photo.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
I should like I sometimes expect people to understand this.
But the problem like who like, when I meet people,
they feel like they will never maybe meet me again,
so they want to use the moment and sometimes yeah,
I'm really tired, I'm exhausted. I can't and everyone like
when you meet someone, he will speak for you for
like five minutes, but you just want But from my story,
(19:20):
I have like dozens of people, dozens or thousands I said,
dozn'ts by mistaken sorry, but.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, what I mean is there's so many people.
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Yeah, so many and everyone will like think that he
wanted to tell me his own story with me, like, Okay,
I really appreciate this, but when I want to say
it like I'm sorry, I can't, I will look like
some kind of like.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
Rude.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
Yeah, but I don't know why how most people I'm
really tired then, and at the same time, you're up. Shit,
I appreciate anyone else you have, like the emotions. So yeah,
you don't know what to say, and I don't. I
don't like to act like I'm a celebrity and just
sign myself and I'm not. Priscian Ronaldo from Gaza City
(20:07):
the Baso.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
I mean, I think you give him a run for
his money in a lot of ways in terms of
how you inspire people.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
No, people also say like see me as a celebrity. Yeah,
I get it, but I'm yeah, celebrity but without money,
you know, like I'm maybe one day all yeah, my
own brand and be.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Like I think you are a brand. I think you're
just really I mean, who am I to say? But
one thing I will say is celebrity is overrated. Yeah,
and but this.
Speaker 4 (20:36):
Show how they are taking step by step When you
got like this fame once of time, you know how
to act, how to do?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
What should I do?
Speaker 2 (20:46):
Like? Why should I think you're doing a great job?
If I can say it's trying, I'm not trying. I
think I think I need to say that to you,
not only because I'm older than you, but I do
want to say one thing. I mean, I'm forty and
I still haven't mastered or really become good at creating
boundaries and enforcing them, not just with strangers you know,
in the fame context, but anyhow, I hope you become
(21:08):
much better at boundaries than I was in my twenties.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
And hopefully, hopefully or maybe I'll want to a beer.
This is luck the field that I have. I feel
you rather just want, you know, disappear. Yeah, well maybe
you should. I don't know where like I do it,
I can help you. I know, people from hender Ros
know me. I don't know how, like from where hender Ros,
I don't know ye yeah, yeah, like people know me.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
There, everyone knows you everywhere. No, no, but I can
take you. We could talk offline without when we're not
about a place. I mean, I won't take you, but
I can send you to a friend of mine who
has a small island somewhere. I think it might might
help you and maybe help the world anyhow. You've become
a voice for Gaza, that's undeniable. But who do you
turn to when you need to be heard.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Like her?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Like what when you need someone to hear to let
h Sorry.
Speaker 4 (22:01):
Okay, a stranger?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Really? Yeah, you actually do that?
Speaker 4 (22:07):
I did twice.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Really can you tell me just a little bit about
one of those experiences?
Speaker 4 (22:14):
Well, just you know, like if you're you're like.
Speaker 2 (22:16):
On a bus or on a plane or.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
No, like you met him for the first time, you
don't know him. They know me.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
But I.
Speaker 4 (22:23):
Found myself like I'm talking to him, like I tell
him my whole story. Didn't I leave? I don't know,
Like I don't even have a touch with them.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
That's what I do with my therapist.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Yeah, sometimes you know, I'm trying to commit to the terravist.
But I even sound like no, I got it. Yeah, yeah,
I'm trying. There's reluctance. Now you got to keep trying.
What's something you've been afraid to admit out loud? But
you might be ready to share with me? Pretend I'm
a stranger. M like something I did in yeas or
like I did.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
No, just something that like maybe you feel and you
think about you've come to realize maybe with time.
Speaker 4 (22:59):
I mean sometimes maybe I wish I used some lies,
you know, like to just protect myself. Yeah, being honest
in this world is not really a good thing. Yeah,
be able will not accept you of like being completely honest.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Yeah I can really.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
Yeah, Like sometimes I feel like when I meet people
who are like who never lived in Gaza, and they
make you feel that they understand your stitution more than you, Like,
how how dare you?
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (23:31):
You know, like how dare you? Like I'm the one
who's living there. He never talked about Gaza before now,
So I sometimes.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
You just go along.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
I just yay, you know, like I I can't go
along with it with this talk about what you're talking
about because you're kind of you never believe you know,
you just stick with idea that we are like machines,
you don't get tired.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
And yeah, okay, fine, let's destroy as well. Okay with
what with my phone?
Speaker 4 (24:04):
Like I'm alone, I'm military alone.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Nobody.
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Like when I was like in Gaz, I was talking
about like at least something to interguzz with their tanks
or something to protect the civilians, but nobody, and I
found this talk will cause me a lot of troubles.
I will not be able to travel easily from the
Arab countries. So this is what I hate about I
had about the Middle East that there is no freedom
speech and you need Okay, like I go some sometimes
(24:32):
I go to Arab countries. Okay, they some of them
like security to check my phone and open like what's
up and want to check my pictures? And who you're
talking about talking with? And yeah, okay, so both something
about us that we are good and blah blah blah blah.
Like I went to the US to Dallas Airport. I
(24:52):
found two policemen hugging me when I arrived and opened
like a vib away from me, and we appreciate what
you did for a country. Didn't check my phone. I've
been like under an investigation with the National Security for
four hours, didn't even touch my phone.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
Why you do this? Like?
Speaker 4 (25:10):
And the problem when you tell them when you face
them that they lot us down.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
They don't like this. So do you feel like you
don't say it because you just don't want upset people
when it's so upsetting Bob, But it's obvious.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
I want.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
I want to make sure that I can go back
to I understand, and I want to make sure that
I get every help even sometimes when I'm okay, you're good.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
Yeah, but.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Listen, I want to help the people. So sometimes you're
on a table and this is what how the reason
the region looks like. So I'm not gonna change it.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
That's why I love kids, because kids are honest and
it works.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, I was. I used to be to be like
a liar kid.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
So I used to.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
Kid but my mom but my mouth.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
We have that in common.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Last question. If there was only one photo or one
sentence that you can leave behind in this world to
remember Gaza by, what might it be like a bell Gazza? Yeah,
something that for you, being Aben Hallack really is Gaza
(26:26):
in one sentence or in one image even a memory
that you have, like when you know, when when I
think of my time in New York or Egypt, like
I have certain visuals or sentences. I mean, maybe nothing
comes to mind. Why are you laughing?
Speaker 4 (26:39):
What's the meaning of going?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, like the.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
Who like always grab attention and feels like he's the
only one in the world. Times No Gaza. You know,
we used to feel that in Gaza, that because we
are in Gaza so special and we are like the
special thing in the whole world, center of the world. Yeah,
you know, yeah exactly. Yeah, so I've I want to
tell like people don't don't think about trying to to
(27:04):
go to Gaza. They think about going to bars, going
to blah blah blah blah blah. Don't to have vacation
here and there, but not not really becauesn't it's not
under a schedule the plan. Just pray for Gazza, donate
for Gaza. But for sorry, there's no airport after his
rope destroy the airport and there's no way to enter.
(27:26):
So yeah, so we feel that sometimes, but actually the
truth is that we the world doesn't look like this
to us.
Speaker 2 (27:37):
For sorry, I know you're going to Amra soon when
you envision your future. Do you see yourself in Gaza? Yeah, yeah,
you really do.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
Yeah, but not for staying there forever or like, okay,
I just want to advi this when I want to
go back, when I want to get out.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
That's it.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Like to be like a play step that's easy to
travel too. Oh, that's it, and bring people to.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
I think that's maybe a question that people should be
asking themselves. Yeah, I appreciate your time, thanks so much,
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
I'm Ahmed Dean and this is out loud, where silence
ends and the real conversation begins. If this conversation moved
you hit subscribe, leave a review, and share it with
someone who needs to hear it. You can find us
on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your shows. Until next time, remember to stay loud.
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