October 15, 2024 • 28 mins
Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila, Robert Mathis, Daniel Muir and T.J. Clemmings were all searching for something after their NFL careers, and they chose to follow Pastor Charles Dowell. We talked to other former NFL players about their lives after the game, and their own search for meaning when their all-consuming sport was finished. Many NFL careers end before the player has even turned 30, and players have to figure out, what’s next?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, it's Kayln Kaylor. As we reported out this series,
we interviewed a lot of former NFL players who'd been
teammates or friends with Kabir and TJ. When we talked,
I asked them about their own experiences after they left
the Gridiron. These men took a different path than their
former teammates who joined straightway, but they each had their
own struggles in finding themselves in retirement. So in this
(00:23):
bonus episode, you're going to hear from some of those players.
Jeremiah Searles was an offensive lineman with stints in San Diego, Minnesota,
and Buffalo until his NFL career was cut short by
an ankle injury after six seasons. Now, he's talking to
me from his home office in Nebraska, where he works
(00:44):
as an NFL agent. He stayed close to the game
that he loves, even though it also caused him a
lot of pain.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I retore the ligament that I had surgery on, and
basically they told me if I tore that ligament for
a third time, they'd have to fuse my ankle to
write only have linear movement, no lateral movement. And I
was like, you know, I'm twenty eight. I just had
my son six weeks before that, and I was just
basically like, it's just not worth it. I got six
years in the league and ultimately just retired, and it's
(01:12):
not like I couldn't have gone back and played. I
just made the conscious decision that it just wasn't worth it.
So luckily I had discussions with my wife about what
our future would hold. I was coming to the point
of my career where I was never going to sign
the big deal. I remember crying in my eggs in
the morning when I got the call from the doctor
that said I had retoorn my ligament again, and I
(01:34):
pretty much knew it at that exact moment, like it
was over.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
It's a pretty gut wrenching feeling.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
It's a lost You kind of feel lost, you kind
of feel confused, angry, I mean, pick an emotion and
it's running through your head, especially the way that happened
to me, where literally like I had no time to
prepare and I had no time to be like, maybe
this is my last season. Maybe like I just fully
felt like I was just going to keep playing, and
all of a sudden it was just over.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
That was a terrible morning.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I can still remember sitting in Minneapolis getting that phone
call from the doctor, crying in my eggs with my
wife and called my dad and called my agent and
just calling a bunch of people being like, this is
probably it, and then you just kind of have to
slowly start figuring out, Okay, what's next.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
My wife ultimately was the number one.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
She'd been in my corner since we've been together, since
we were freshman in college, so I mean, she'd been
along for the entire journey through everything, So she was
obviously my number one supporter, always has been. And then
my family, my mom, my dad, my brother, all those guys.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
My agent was a huge role in it too.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
He talked to me and main daily about how can
I help, what can we do, how can we make
this decision? And I mean, ultimately he was the one
that helped me also transition into my next career.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I love my job. I love what I'm doing right now.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Being able to work with college kids going into the
NFL and being able to just be back and breaking
down film with them.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
And I love my job.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
And it's hard and it's a grind, but like I
don't have any problem getting up and going to work,
you know, and for me, that's not something that many
people can say. It is fresh, is new, and I
absolutely love the people I work with, And so I
think my family and my job right now and the
facts are getting nicer out so I can go golf.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Life for me right now is good.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
It was difficult because I was a type of person,
you know.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
I never planned for Plan B.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Mike Montgomery played with career in Green Bay. Mike's career
as a defensive tackle lasted six seasons from two thousand
and five to twenty ten. After he retired, he experimented
with a variety of jobs. He was a coach and
even a professional actor. He now hosts his own podcast
and is working on starting a nonprofit. He says the
transition from pro football to the real world was much
(03:39):
harder than he thought it'd be.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
I was the type of guy, if I'm planning for
plan B, did my plan A? I don't believe much
in my plan A. So I was a type of guy.
I'm gonna play ten years, I'm gonna be a Hall
of Fame just like Michael Straighthan, you know. So I
had those of doing that, But when I fell short
and kept getting injured, my football career cut short. I
(04:02):
really just had to find my way, find my path.
And I can say this as a man, you want
to be secure and set, especially if you take on
a relationship or marriage. You want to be set in
your career. So I lost relationships, lost time, lost money,
(04:24):
jumping from another career to the other career, trying to
make things, trying to find a way. You know, it
was a journey and just made myself better for it.
I missed the money. No, I missed hanging out with
my teammates. That was actually the highlight of my career.
I made really great friends in the NFL, really good
(04:48):
dynamic people. So I just missed the camaraderie of hanging
out with my friends all day. I am currently writing
a book called The Heartbeat Away from Destiny Michael Montgomery story.
I talk about how I survived a near death experience
with an unknown heart disease and then went on to
play in the NFL.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
When I was playing, that was my identity as a
football player. It was all I really knew. Since the
age of five years old, I dreamed of being an
NFL player.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Mike Harris is a former Vikings offensive lineman. He played
four NFL seasons in his last two twenty fourteen. In
twenty fifteen were in Minnesota alongside TJ. Like TJ, he
suffered a career ending injury, but unlike TJ, he looked
for a different kind of support off the field. When
we spoke to him, he was still living in Minnesota
and working as an assistant college football coach.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
It was amazing. I got to live out my dream.
I got to start into, you know, be in some
big time moments that left a great impression, not just
on my teammates, but just on the fan base the
whole city. In my retirement days, not a lot of
fans know who I am. But you know, when I
say my name obviously and I say what team I
(06:04):
was on twenty fifteen NFC Nord Championship, then they remember
me because I did start all the games that year
and we had a very successful team. And the fans
that know and you know, remember that crazy season, they
know who I am. The Vikings fans are really loyal.
They've been really good to me since my retirement, and
(06:26):
the organization has also been good to me because they
have allowed me to have platforms and do guest appearances
autograph signings, all that stuff I get to be involved
in and where I'm also involved in the Legends community,
which is really good here in the Twin Cities. My
planning career ended in twenty sixteen. I suffered a brain
(06:48):
illness injury that made me retire. It was all on
for seeing. Kind of hard to talk about still to
this day, but you know, it was rough. At the time.
I was in a very dark place. I was alone,
you know, I didn't have football, I didn't have my coaches,
my teammates around me, and I decided to end up
going home. I myself got released in early twenty seventeen.
(07:12):
So it's a rough moment, especially knowing that I was
injured over a brain something I had never suffered a
concussion at all my whole life. You know, it was
a tough time, you know, having the greatest thing ever
taken away from you and just asking why, why me?
Speaker 6 (07:30):
Why?
Speaker 5 (07:32):
Why did I have to suffer this brain injury? Why
am I being punished? And you know, when you're away
from it, you know, I took time to just reflect
on it in the situation, and you know, I think
the people that came into my life at the time
I thank my mother who found me the right counseling
(07:53):
and because I did use a you know, a Christian
counselor who did you know, use the Bibles as a
resource in his teaching and to help me get out
of that dark place.
Speaker 7 (08:07):
For me, I think things were a little bit different
when I retired and decided that, you know, it was
time for me to move on. I kind of had
already been working on stuff for years.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Brian Robinson had a long career as a defensive end
with the Minnesota Vikings, playing one hundred and seventy three
games over eleven seasons. He left the NFL in twenty
seventeen on his own terms and he launched a whole
new career as a bass fisherman.
Speaker 7 (08:31):
Probably the best advice that I got, and I got
it from kind of a group of guys. It was
not really one guy, but the reoccurring theme was, you know,
while you're having this platform and you have this opportunity
to have your name out there, like you need to
be starting to work on what is the next step.
Don't wait till it's too late, and then you have
(08:51):
to decide immediately, like, be working on it now. So
for me, it was different because I did. I started working.
I mean I can remember two thousand twelve when I
started getting real big into fishing and things like that.
I figured out real quick, like, this is something that
I think is really cool that I'm passionate about, and
when I'm done playing football, like, this is kind of
(09:11):
the industry and the avenue that I want to take
and I want to be in. And so I started
working on those connections and networking with people and going
to all these events to meet people in the business
talk to them about things. And so that was a
really easy transition for me.
Speaker 8 (09:26):
Now.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
The one thing that I did struggle with a little
bit when I retired is what to do with my time? Right,
We're used to being on a schedule and all of
our time being taken up by this one thing. Right,
when when you get done, you literally have all day,
but you don't know what to do. You don't have
that structure in your life. And so that was one
(09:48):
thing that I probably struggled with the most, is like
waking up each and every day and figuring out what
I was going to do for that day. And then
the second part of that is that competitive drive. What's
going to keep you getting up every morning to be
motivated and devoted to something and keep that brain stimulation,
that competitive drive going. Luckily, you know a lot of
the fishing stuff and it turned into the filming stuff
(10:11):
kind of took that over for me. But a lot
of guys don't have those opportunities because they don't know
really what they want to do with their life before
they retire or before they're released from a team or whatever.
My advice to those guys would be, have a plan
for when this is over. Have a plan before your
(10:32):
NFL career is over, because if you do, the transition
will be much easier versus it taking you two, three,
four years to figure it out. And by that time
you use up all your resources, or you've lost touch
with the guys that can get you to that point,
or you haven't made those connections, and now you don't
have that name or the NFL tagged to your name anymore,
(10:55):
and therefore you know, you don't get those opportunities that
you would if you were still playing the NFL. So
I would say, utilize your platform as an NFL football
player or any sports. Really use that platform to get
the connections you need to get in order to make
that transition as easy and as smooth as possible when
you get ready to retire.
Speaker 6 (11:16):
It was a rough transition. Didn't feel prepared for it.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Bryce Pop played for the Green Bay Packers before Kabir
was drafted in two thousand. Brice played eleven seasons for
four different teams. He made four Pro Bowls and was
the nineteen ninety five Defensive Player of the Year. When
I spoke to him, he'd found purpose as a college
football coach for the University of Northern Iowa.
Speaker 9 (11:37):
I was a fortunate one. I got to basically dictate
when I was done. I decided not to come back.
I had a team to come back at me and
asked me if I wanted to play again, and I
turned him down. Buddy, it's a hard transition, yeah, I mean,
this could be a two or three hour conversation because
I've lived it and I know and you know. You
(11:58):
have to get rid of skeleton in the closet. You
have to get rid of the ghosts from the past
and the things that were put on you. And what
makes you a great football player doesn't make you a
great husband or father. And unless you get help with
that process, it good luck. The players that I know
have had traumatic experiences in their life, and they've been
(12:20):
put on the fight or flight syndrome and they're.
Speaker 6 (12:23):
Living on adrenaline. So you say something to them, you
do something to them.
Speaker 7 (12:26):
They're ready to fight at the drop of a hat.
Speaker 9 (12:28):
Well, they've been triggered and stuck emotionally, stuck fixated at
a young age, and that's what makes them want to
play this game and want to beat the living crap
out of somebody within the confines of the football arena.
But you don't have that anymore, and you don't have
that outlet, and you don't have anybody to help process
(12:50):
and tell you that, you know what.
Speaker 6 (12:53):
What happened to you as a little kid was.
Speaker 9 (12:54):
Totally unfair because hurting people hurt people, So it wasn't
it wasn't your fault. You didn't deserve that, But no
one ever tells you that, And so you go around
because the one thing I learned was there's a part
of your brain that down on list here's what you say,
it starts to believe it. Well, when other people start
calling you names and doing stuff, it's an option. But
(13:15):
when I start to speak it out of my mouth,
it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy or a destiny, And
when you've been programmed that way for so long, it's
hard to get out of it, especially when there's no motivation,
there's no carrot out there to change, and all you
see is just no one cares.
Speaker 6 (13:34):
Life goes on, and you know it's a downward cycle.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Why do you coach football?
Speaker 6 (13:44):
Because I can help And sorry, I'm getting the motion on.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Because I can.
Speaker 8 (13:50):
Stop a lot of that.
Speaker 7 (13:51):
Bullshit that happens to football players.
Speaker 8 (13:56):
Because I have.
Speaker 9 (13:58):
People that I trust that will tell them the truth,
and I tell them the truth, and I coach them
on life.
Speaker 6 (14:08):
Because I've got kids that it's me thirty years later.
Speaker 9 (14:17):
And I'm like, no, I'm not letting this kid slip
through the cracks.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So what support did these retired players get from the NFL?
That's coming up after the break. The NFL is trying
(14:49):
to help. Every team has dedicated staff and programs in
place to support players on their way in and out
of teams, and the players Union has several programs to
assist former players, But Jeremiah Serle says it's still tough
to get through to these guys.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I mean when you're a young player and you're a rookie,
they're trying to instill these ideas in you that like
the game will end one day, right like they eventually
this wall end. But to be honest with you, as
a rookie, you don't hear any of that. Like all
you hear is I'm here to make the team. I'm
not here to worry about the end of my career.
I'm just trying to get my career started right. And
so it's really good what the NFL does to try
(15:25):
and get ahead of that. But the problem is you
just can't really let yourself even start to believe that
as a rookie.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Mike Harris again, when you're.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
A rookie twenty two years old, you do you think
you're gonna play twenty years and make you know, millions
and millions of dollars, you know. So I learned about
it because every rookie it's mandatory that we have those,
you know, player engagement meetings, which was very helpful for me,
whether relationship advice, finance advice. I really didn't even talk
to guys like Les Pico and use those player engagement
(15:56):
resources until I was in the situation that I was
of being injured, being isolated and depressed that I had
the courage to reach out when I got injured, I
was real I felt isolated. I didn't want to talk
to anyone. I didn't even talk to the media. The
media didn't know anything about my injury until I was released. So,
(16:17):
but Les, being that he was the player engagement, he
was someone I can confine too, So we started having
weekly meetings. Even though I wasn't practicing, I wasn't on
the field, I would go see Les for about an
hour each week, talk about just how I'm feeling. He
would check in on my mental health, just try to
find outlets for me and find, you know, other people
that I can lean on to, whether it's therapists, counselors.
(16:39):
And then I also use the NFLPA. They offer a
lot of support systems as well, and just tapping into
all that good stuff that, like I said, has helped
me to get to where I am today, because without
all that, who knows where I would end up.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Mike Montgomery was one of those players Jeremiah talked about.
He tried to transition out of the NFL without our
for any help.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
They had programs out there but I kind of just
went off of what and tried to do my own thing.
But when I started reaching back to the NFL, you know,
they was very supportive. I think players have to take
in their own accountability because the NFL has.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
Programs out there that can help them.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
They have a transition program, they have job shadowing, mentor programs,
so they always had a lot of things going on
that can really service your life.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And then for some players, their career is over so
fast and they haven't taken the time to prepare. Like
we mentioned, the average NFL player retires from the sport young,
usually after being replaced by someone younger, and they have
to find something else to do with their life.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Usually you leave the NFL with a bad taste in
your mouth. That's just pretty much nature of the beast, right,
I mean, very rarely are either Philip Rivers or the
Tom Brady's that are gonna be like, hey, I had
a great career, thank you everyone, and right off, it's hey,
this team cut me, and now I don't have a job,
and now screw the NFL.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I got screwed. They screwed me, I got.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Injured, and you're pissed at the world pissed at the NFL,
and you kind of try and distance yourself from them
because you want nothing to do with them anymore.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
And they do a lot of stuff of reaching out.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I mean, the NFL trust calls me all the time,
they send you emails about programs, but a lot of
it is they'll lead the horse to water right the
the NFLPA can absolutely they'll send you everything, but until
you jump and make your own decision to get involved
with the programs or get involved with the things that
they offer, there's really not a lot more that PA
can do, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Mike Harris was super positive about the personal relationship he'd
had with Les Pico, the Vikings executive director of player development,
so we reached out to Less. We wanted him to
tell us more about what the Vikings were doing for
their players. He declined our interview request. We also reached
out to Gil Bird, who'd been the Packers director of
player programs when Kabir played there, and he'd been important
(18:58):
to Kaber during his early years in Green Bay. He
also declined our request. These programs are implemented at a
league level as well, so we tried the NFL. They
declined our requests for an on air interview. They did
direct us to an overview of what NFL player engagement
looks like on the NFL Operations website. There's a quote
from Joy Vincent, NFL EVP of Football Apps, about the
(19:21):
approach to player support. We are committed to setting up
players and their families for success, starting from the day
they enter the league to long after their playing days
are over. Whether a player wants to go back to school,
start a new business, or learn about financial planning, the
NFL family and player engagement are here to support. We
(19:47):
did talk to Father Jim Buroniac about this, though the
former Packers chaplain. He spent a lot of time trying
to prepare players for this transition.
Speaker 10 (19:56):
This is always coming up in my preaching to the team.
They will come a day, guys, when you are a
former athlete, every single one of us. I'm no longer
a runner. Okay, I'm a former athlete, certainly not a
professional athlete by any stretch of the imagination. But therefore,
what else do you have to lean upon? I have
(20:18):
been so enamored by so many of the Packers that
I've run into, and working with the NFL and the
combine not just Green Bay Packers, but other men who
remain engaged academically, professionally, relationally, that upon retirement they're not
(20:38):
just sitting home watching ESPN all day. I hope that
at their young age and with the good gifts that
they have, that they have skills that are transferable. Some
of the men keep it with athletics. They go into coaching,
they go into broadcasts, they go into writing. How wonderful
it allows them to keep the game alive. Some men
have gone to complete in total different direct actions. But
(21:01):
life comes crashing down on people, and now in the
secular world, forget football, forget athleticism. When all of a
sudden you find men who are factory workers and who
worked forever, and all of a sudden they call it
quits at sixty five. You find them die so quickly
in life. And sometimes it's because their purpose is fulfilled,
(21:25):
or they didn't have a plan B, or they don't
have hobbies or things to rely upon after their retirement.
So all of a sudden, it is such an adjustment
to what they do with their day. And when this
is happening to you at thirty five and forty years old,
(21:45):
not sixty five or seventy years old, you had better
have something. Even if you are so rich that you
have all the money in the world that you don't
have to work another day in your life. We are
not wired that way. As human beings need a purpose,
we need a goal, we need a drive, and so
I admire those players that have been able to turn
(22:08):
that corner in doing such a wonderful way, especially those
who are giving back to society or giving back to
the game, or being role models or mentors for young
people coming up in the ranks as well.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Mike Sherman, Kabir's former coach with the Packers, agrees with
father Jim. Football is not the only thing in life.
Speaker 8 (22:27):
I used to tell the players all the time. If
all you are is a football player and that's all
your identity, it's going to be a sad life for you.
You've got to be more than that. And the way
you get there is you have to give something of
yourself to others to allow yourself to become that. And
so it is important that the football players transition into
something other than football, whether it's youth football, whether it's
(22:50):
run their own business, whatever it is that they can do.
You know, most of them have enough money to not
have to do anything, but that's a pretty lonely existence,
and you know, I think give a lot of them
do get back to the community because of what they
were able to acquire.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Jeremiah Searles knows how difficult it is to walk away
from the game, the fans, and the routine of football.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I think a lot of guys that leave football a sudden,
this huge piece, I mean eighty to eighty five percent
of your life that's been your life since you were
a kid, most likely is just gone. Right, It's just gone,
and now you have this huge void that you have
to fill with something, and usually the something is instant
gratification or something very quickly that you can grab and
(23:32):
latch onto and just be a part of and just
fill the void because of emptiness, and that's where you
kind of spiral yourself versus I didn't just throw the
NFL away. I didn't just throw football away. I used
it to help propel me into my next career. And
a lot of guys just can't do that because of
how badly they felt like the NFL burned them as
they walked out.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Jeremiah says he knows some ex players who have gotten
in touch with their spiritual side with retirement.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I've seen it happen beautifully, where guys retire and they
know that their purpose is no longer in football, but
they find purpose in life in God. Happened to me.
I mean, I was got saved in twenty eighteen. Thought
I was going to play another ten years in league,
only ended up playing another eighteen months before my career
was over. And without my faith, without my family, I
don't know where I would have been.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Jeremiah first learned about his ex teammate TJ's big spiritual
shift on Facebook. He scrolled past a YouTube video that
TJ posted in twenty twenty one. It was titled final
Warning to Christiana Clemings, There's no eternal inheritance for you.
Jeremiah started watching. He was surprised by what TJ was saying,
like he answers only to the laws of yacht and
(24:37):
even admonishing viewers who think he's abandoned his family and
joined a cult.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
What is this that he's talking about? Who is he
talking about?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Like, But at the same time, it was kind of
I had no idea, right, I mean him and I
hadn't stayed in touch, and so just a lot of
confusing thoughts that went through it, but also kind of
a I hope you're okay, buddy type of thing, right
Like that was a more piece to it for me
was I'm not here to judge anybody. I'm not here
to be called to judge anyone. I just hope he's okay.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Jeremiah was worried about TJ because he'd never seen another
former teammate act so differently than the guy he knew.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I haven't really seen anyone that's like jumped off into
people called a cold, people called a following, whatever it is, like,
I haven't really seen much of that.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
No, but there are four players who jumped all in. Kabir,
Robert Daniel, and TJ chose a post football life that
works for them. In a YouTube video called from NFL
to Servant, the four ex nflers sit in the Straightway
Tabernacle discussing their playing days and their decision to choose Straightway.
(25:39):
Here's Kabir, and we.
Speaker 11 (25:41):
See people are peers. We've seen celebrities make money and
they're unhappy. They're some of the most unhappiest people in
the world. When you come to this man to the straightway.
You see people that are happy, truly have a piece
that passes all understanding. And us who's been in that
world would tell you in the heart.
Speaker 6 (26:00):
This is the place to be.
Speaker 11 (26:01):
But on the outside it looks like, Oh, they don't
get out the the amenities and all this stuff. And
when you come here and you around the people, it's contagious.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
If they hadn't played in the NFL, Robert Daniel, Kabir
and TJ might still have found their way to Pastor
Dowell's YouTube channel. Some of them may still have left
their first wives and children behind for a different life.
We'll never know the answer to that, but we do
know from our conversations with Bryce Pop and other former
players that the all encompassing NFL experience and the sudden
(26:31):
and mostly uncontrollable end to those careers creates a void
that players need to fill with something equally meaningful.
Speaker 9 (26:38):
When players get done, they're fragile and their egos are hurting.
They don't know who they are for the most part.
So that you get in with people like that and
they tell you what you want to hear and buy
out climbing Center.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Some might say Kabir and TJ Spirals, but they might
say for the first time they're grounded.
Speaker 12 (27:00):
Now the narrative of man TJ is going crazy. He's
lost his mind, He's joined a cult. It is crazy.
The moment you start actually trying to say, you know what,
let me do, let me try, let me loosely try
with the smallest thing, Let me try to actually start
doing what this Bible says to do. Now you're in
a cult.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
That's a wrap on Spirals. Thank you for listening this season.
Skyrold is a production of Sports Illustrated Studios, iHeart Podcasts
and One on One Studios podcast. The show was reported
by me Kaylen Taylor, with additional reporting by senior producer
Buffy Gorilla. Writing service provided by Buffy Gorilla and Jen Kinney,
(27:44):
sound design, mixing and mastering by Charlie Kaier. Sarah Sneath
is our fact checker. Scott Stone is our executive producer,
and Daniel Waxman is Director of podcast Development and podcast
production Manager at One on One Studios. At iHeart podcast,
Shan Tutone is our executive producer. Dushall. Thank you to
Michelle Newman, David Glasser, and David Houtkin from One on
one Studios. For more shows from iHeart Podcasts, go visit
(28:07):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, it's Kayln Kaylor. As we reported out this series,
we interviewed a lot of former NFL players who'd been
teammates or friends with Kabir and TJ. When we talked,
I asked them about their own experiences after they left
the Gridiron. These men took a different path than their
former teammates who joined straightway, but they each had their
own struggles in finding themselves in retirement. So in this
(00:23):
bonus episode, you're going to hear from some of those players.
Jeremiah Searles was an offensive lineman with stints in San Diego, Minnesota,
and Buffalo until his NFL career was cut short by
an ankle injury after six seasons. Now, he's talking to
me from his home office in Nebraska, where he works
(00:44):
as an NFL agent. He stayed close to the game
that he loves, even though it also caused him a
lot of pain.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
I retore the ligament that I had surgery on, and
basically they told me if I tore that ligament for
a third time, they'd have to fuse my ankle to
write only have linear movement, no lateral movement. And I
was like, you know, I'm twenty eight. I just had
my son six weeks before that, and I was just
basically like, it's just not worth it. I got six
years in the league and ultimately just retired, and it's
(01:12):
not like I couldn't have gone back and played. I
just made the conscious decision that it just wasn't worth it.
So luckily I had discussions with my wife about what
our future would hold. I was coming to the point
of my career where I was never going to sign
the big deal. I remember crying in my eggs in
the morning when I got the call from the doctor
that said I had retoorn my ligament again, and I
(01:34):
pretty much knew it at that exact moment, like it
was over.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
It's a pretty gut wrenching feeling.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
It's a lost You kind of feel lost, you kind
of feel confused, angry, I mean, pick an emotion and
it's running through your head, especially the way that happened
to me, where literally like I had no time to
prepare and I had no time to be like, maybe
this is my last season. Maybe like I just fully
felt like I was just going to keep playing, and
all of a sudden it was just over.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
That was a terrible morning.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
I can still remember sitting in Minneapolis getting that phone
call from the doctor, crying in my eggs with my
wife and called my dad and called my agent and
just calling a bunch of people being like, this is
probably it, and then you just kind of have to
slowly start figuring out, Okay, what's next.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
My wife ultimately was the number one.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
She'd been in my corner since we've been together, since
we were freshman in college, so I mean, she'd been
along for the entire journey through everything, So she was
obviously my number one supporter, always has been. And then
my family, my mom, my dad, my brother, all those guys.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
My agent was a huge role in it too.
Speaker 2 (02:32):
He talked to me and main daily about how can
I help, what can we do, how can we make
this decision? And I mean, ultimately he was the one
that helped me also transition into my next career.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
I love my job. I love what I'm doing right now.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Being able to work with college kids going into the
NFL and being able to just be back and breaking
down film with them.
Speaker 3 (02:50):
And I love my job.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
And it's hard and it's a grind, but like I
don't have any problem getting up and going to work,
you know, and for me, that's not something that many
people can say. It is fresh, is new, and I
absolutely love the people I work with, And so I
think my family and my job right now and the
facts are getting nicer out so I can go golf.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Life for me right now is good.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
It was difficult because I was a type of person,
you know.
Speaker 5 (03:14):
I never planned for Plan B.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Mike Montgomery played with career in Green Bay. Mike's career
as a defensive tackle lasted six seasons from two thousand
and five to twenty ten. After he retired, he experimented
with a variety of jobs. He was a coach and
even a professional actor. He now hosts his own podcast
and is working on starting a nonprofit. He says the
transition from pro football to the real world was much
(03:39):
harder than he thought it'd be.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
I was the type of guy, if I'm planning for
plan B, did my plan A? I don't believe much
in my plan A. So I was a type of guy.
I'm gonna play ten years, I'm gonna be a Hall
of Fame just like Michael Straighthan, you know. So I
had those of doing that, But when I fell short
and kept getting injured, my football career cut short. I
(04:02):
really just had to find my way, find my path.
And I can say this as a man, you want
to be secure and set, especially if you take on
a relationship or marriage. You want to be set in
your career. So I lost relationships, lost time, lost money,
(04:24):
jumping from another career to the other career, trying to
make things, trying to find a way. You know, it
was a journey and just made myself better for it.
I missed the money. No, I missed hanging out with
my teammates. That was actually the highlight of my career.
I made really great friends in the NFL, really good
(04:48):
dynamic people. So I just missed the camaraderie of hanging
out with my friends all day. I am currently writing
a book called The Heartbeat Away from Destiny Michael Montgomery story.
I talk about how I survived a near death experience
with an unknown heart disease and then went on to
play in the NFL.
Speaker 5 (05:12):
When I was playing, that was my identity as a
football player. It was all I really knew. Since the
age of five years old, I dreamed of being an
NFL player.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Mike Harris is a former Vikings offensive lineman. He played
four NFL seasons in his last two twenty fourteen. In
twenty fifteen were in Minnesota alongside TJ. Like TJ, he
suffered a career ending injury, but unlike TJ, he looked
for a different kind of support off the field. When
we spoke to him, he was still living in Minnesota
and working as an assistant college football coach.
Speaker 5 (05:44):
It was amazing. I got to live out my dream.
I got to start into, you know, be in some
big time moments that left a great impression, not just
on my teammates, but just on the fan base the
whole city. In my retirement days, not a lot of
fans know who I am. But you know, when I
say my name obviously and I say what team I
(06:04):
was on twenty fifteen NFC Nord Championship, then they remember
me because I did start all the games that year
and we had a very successful team. And the fans
that know and you know, remember that crazy season, they
know who I am. The Vikings fans are really loyal.
They've been really good to me since my retirement, and
(06:26):
the organization has also been good to me because they
have allowed me to have platforms and do guest appearances
autograph signings, all that stuff I get to be involved
in and where I'm also involved in the Legends community,
which is really good here in the Twin Cities. My
planning career ended in twenty sixteen. I suffered a brain
(06:48):
illness injury that made me retire. It was all on
for seeing. Kind of hard to talk about still to
this day, but you know, it was rough. At the time.
I was in a very dark place. I was alone,
you know, I didn't have football, I didn't have my coaches,
my teammates around me, and I decided to end up
going home. I myself got released in early twenty seventeen.
(07:12):
So it's a rough moment, especially knowing that I was
injured over a brain something I had never suffered a
concussion at all my whole life. You know, it was
a tough time, you know, having the greatest thing ever
taken away from you and just asking why, why me?
Speaker 6 (07:30):
Why?
Speaker 5 (07:32):
Why did I have to suffer this brain injury? Why
am I being punished? And you know, when you're away
from it, you know, I took time to just reflect
on it in the situation, and you know, I think
the people that came into my life at the time
I thank my mother who found me the right counseling
(07:53):
and because I did use a you know, a Christian
counselor who did you know, use the Bibles as a
resource in his teaching and to help me get out
of that dark place.
Speaker 7 (08:07):
For me, I think things were a little bit different
when I retired and decided that, you know, it was
time for me to move on. I kind of had
already been working on stuff for years.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Brian Robinson had a long career as a defensive end
with the Minnesota Vikings, playing one hundred and seventy three
games over eleven seasons. He left the NFL in twenty
seventeen on his own terms and he launched a whole
new career as a bass fisherman.
Speaker 7 (08:31):
Probably the best advice that I got, and I got
it from kind of a group of guys. It was
not really one guy, but the reoccurring theme was, you know,
while you're having this platform and you have this opportunity
to have your name out there, like you need to
be starting to work on what is the next step.
Don't wait till it's too late, and then you have
(08:51):
to decide immediately, like, be working on it now. So
for me, it was different because I did. I started working.
I mean I can remember two thousand twelve when I
started getting real big into fishing and things like that.
I figured out real quick, like, this is something that
I think is really cool that I'm passionate about, and
when I'm done playing football, like, this is kind of
(09:11):
the industry and the avenue that I want to take
and I want to be in. And so I started
working on those connections and networking with people and going
to all these events to meet people in the business
talk to them about things. And so that was a
really easy transition for me.
Speaker 8 (09:26):
Now.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
The one thing that I did struggle with a little
bit when I retired is what to do with my time? Right,
We're used to being on a schedule and all of
our time being taken up by this one thing. Right,
when when you get done, you literally have all day,
but you don't know what to do. You don't have
that structure in your life. And so that was one
(09:48):
thing that I probably struggled with the most, is like
waking up each and every day and figuring out what
I was going to do for that day. And then
the second part of that is that competitive drive. What's
going to keep you getting up every morning to be
motivated and devoted to something and keep that brain stimulation,
that competitive drive going. Luckily, you know a lot of
the fishing stuff and it turned into the filming stuff
(10:11):
kind of took that over for me. But a lot
of guys don't have those opportunities because they don't know
really what they want to do with their life before
they retire or before they're released from a team or whatever.
My advice to those guys would be, have a plan
for when this is over. Have a plan before your
(10:32):
NFL career is over, because if you do, the transition
will be much easier versus it taking you two, three,
four years to figure it out. And by that time
you use up all your resources, or you've lost touch
with the guys that can get you to that point,
or you haven't made those connections, and now you don't
have that name or the NFL tagged to your name anymore,
(10:55):
and therefore you know, you don't get those opportunities that
you would if you were still playing the NFL. So
I would say, utilize your platform as an NFL football
player or any sports. Really use that platform to get
the connections you need to get in order to make
that transition as easy and as smooth as possible when
you get ready to retire.
Speaker 6 (11:16):
It was a rough transition. Didn't feel prepared for it.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Bryce Pop played for the Green Bay Packers before Kabir
was drafted in two thousand. Brice played eleven seasons for
four different teams. He made four Pro Bowls and was
the nineteen ninety five Defensive Player of the Year. When
I spoke to him, he'd found purpose as a college
football coach for the University of Northern Iowa.
Speaker 9 (11:37):
I was a fortunate one. I got to basically dictate
when I was done. I decided not to come back.
I had a team to come back at me and
asked me if I wanted to play again, and I
turned him down. Buddy, it's a hard transition, yeah, I mean,
this could be a two or three hour conversation because
I've lived it and I know and you know. You
(11:58):
have to get rid of skeleton in the closet. You
have to get rid of the ghosts from the past
and the things that were put on you. And what
makes you a great football player doesn't make you a
great husband or father. And unless you get help with
that process, it good luck. The players that I know
have had traumatic experiences in their life, and they've been
(12:20):
put on the fight or flight syndrome and they're.
Speaker 6 (12:23):
Living on adrenaline. So you say something to them, you
do something to them.
Speaker 7 (12:26):
They're ready to fight at the drop of a hat.
Speaker 9 (12:28):
Well, they've been triggered and stuck emotionally, stuck fixated at
a young age, and that's what makes them want to
play this game and want to beat the living crap
out of somebody within the confines of the football arena.
But you don't have that anymore, and you don't have
that outlet, and you don't have anybody to help process
(12:50):
and tell you that, you know what.
Speaker 6 (12:53):
What happened to you as a little kid was.
Speaker 9 (12:54):
Totally unfair because hurting people hurt people, So it wasn't
it wasn't your fault. You didn't deserve that, But no
one ever tells you that, And so you go around
because the one thing I learned was there's a part
of your brain that down on list here's what you say,
it starts to believe it. Well, when other people start
calling you names and doing stuff, it's an option. But
(13:15):
when I start to speak it out of my mouth,
it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy or a destiny, And
when you've been programmed that way for so long, it's
hard to get out of it, especially when there's no motivation,
there's no carrot out there to change, and all you
see is just no one cares.
Speaker 6 (13:34):
Life goes on, and you know it's a downward cycle.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Why do you coach football?
Speaker 6 (13:44):
Because I can help And sorry, I'm getting the motion on.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Because I can.
Speaker 8 (13:50):
Stop a lot of that.
Speaker 7 (13:51):
Bullshit that happens to football players.
Speaker 8 (13:56):
Because I have.
Speaker 9 (13:58):
People that I trust that will tell them the truth,
and I tell them the truth, and I coach them
on life.
Speaker 6 (14:08):
Because I've got kids that it's me thirty years later.
Speaker 9 (14:17):
And I'm like, no, I'm not letting this kid slip
through the cracks.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
So what support did these retired players get from the NFL?
That's coming up after the break. The NFL is trying
(14:49):
to help. Every team has dedicated staff and programs in
place to support players on their way in and out
of teams, and the players Union has several programs to
assist former players, But Jeremiah Serle says it's still tough
to get through to these guys.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I mean when you're a young player and you're a rookie,
they're trying to instill these ideas in you that like
the game will end one day, right like they eventually
this wall end. But to be honest with you, as
a rookie, you don't hear any of that. Like all
you hear is I'm here to make the team. I'm
not here to worry about the end of my career.
I'm just trying to get my career started right. And
so it's really good what the NFL does to try
(15:25):
and get ahead of that. But the problem is you
just can't really let yourself even start to believe that
as a rookie.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Mike Harris again, when you're.
Speaker 5 (15:33):
A rookie twenty two years old, you do you think
you're gonna play twenty years and make you know, millions
and millions of dollars, you know. So I learned about
it because every rookie it's mandatory that we have those,
you know, player engagement meetings, which was very helpful for me,
whether relationship advice, finance advice. I really didn't even talk
to guys like Les Pico and use those player engagement
(15:56):
resources until I was in the situation that I was
of being injured, being isolated and depressed that I had
the courage to reach out when I got injured, I
was real I felt isolated. I didn't want to talk
to anyone. I didn't even talk to the media. The
media didn't know anything about my injury until I was released. So,
(16:17):
but Les, being that he was the player engagement, he
was someone I can confine too, So we started having
weekly meetings. Even though I wasn't practicing, I wasn't on
the field, I would go see Les for about an
hour each week, talk about just how I'm feeling. He
would check in on my mental health, just try to
find outlets for me and find, you know, other people
that I can lean on to, whether it's therapists, counselors.
(16:39):
And then I also use the NFLPA. They offer a
lot of support systems as well, and just tapping into
all that good stuff that, like I said, has helped
me to get to where I am today, because without
all that, who knows where I would end up.
Speaker 1 (16:54):
Mike Montgomery was one of those players Jeremiah talked about.
He tried to transition out of the NFL without our
for any help.
Speaker 4 (17:01):
They had programs out there but I kind of just
went off of what and tried to do my own thing.
But when I started reaching back to the NFL, you know,
they was very supportive. I think players have to take
in their own accountability because the NFL has.
Speaker 5 (17:19):
Programs out there that can help them.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
They have a transition program, they have job shadowing, mentor programs,
so they always had a lot of things going on
that can really service your life.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
And then for some players, their career is over so
fast and they haven't taken the time to prepare. Like
we mentioned, the average NFL player retires from the sport young,
usually after being replaced by someone younger, and they have
to find something else to do with their life.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Usually you leave the NFL with a bad taste in
your mouth. That's just pretty much nature of the beast, right,
I mean, very rarely are either Philip Rivers or the
Tom Brady's that are gonna be like, hey, I had
a great career, thank you everyone, and right off, it's hey,
this team cut me, and now I don't have a job,
and now screw the NFL.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
I got screwed. They screwed me, I got.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Injured, and you're pissed at the world pissed at the NFL,
and you kind of try and distance yourself from them
because you want nothing to do with them anymore.
Speaker 3 (18:12):
And they do a lot of stuff of reaching out.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
I mean, the NFL trust calls me all the time,
they send you emails about programs, but a lot of
it is they'll lead the horse to water right the
the NFLPA can absolutely they'll send you everything, but until
you jump and make your own decision to get involved
with the programs or get involved with the things that
they offer, there's really not a lot more that PA
can do, in my opinion.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Mike Harris was super positive about the personal relationship he'd
had with Les Pico, the Vikings executive director of player development,
so we reached out to Less. We wanted him to
tell us more about what the Vikings were doing for
their players. He declined our interview request. We also reached
out to Gil Bird, who'd been the Packers director of
player programs when Kabir played there, and he'd been important
(18:58):
to Kaber during his early years in Green Bay. He
also declined our request. These programs are implemented at a
league level as well, so we tried the NFL. They
declined our requests for an on air interview. They did
direct us to an overview of what NFL player engagement
looks like on the NFL Operations website. There's a quote
from Joy Vincent, NFL EVP of Football Apps, about the
(19:21):
approach to player support. We are committed to setting up
players and their families for success, starting from the day
they enter the league to long after their playing days
are over. Whether a player wants to go back to school,
start a new business, or learn about financial planning, the
NFL family and player engagement are here to support. We
(19:47):
did talk to Father Jim Buroniac about this, though the
former Packers chaplain. He spent a lot of time trying
to prepare players for this transition.
Speaker 10 (19:56):
This is always coming up in my preaching to the team.
They will come a day, guys, when you are a
former athlete, every single one of us. I'm no longer
a runner. Okay, I'm a former athlete, certainly not a
professional athlete by any stretch of the imagination. But therefore,
what else do you have to lean upon? I have
(20:18):
been so enamored by so many of the Packers that
I've run into, and working with the NFL and the
combine not just Green Bay Packers, but other men who
remain engaged academically, professionally, relationally, that upon retirement they're not
(20:38):
just sitting home watching ESPN all day. I hope that
at their young age and with the good gifts that
they have, that they have skills that are transferable. Some
of the men keep it with athletics. They go into coaching,
they go into broadcasts, they go into writing. How wonderful
it allows them to keep the game alive. Some men
have gone to complete in total different direct actions. But
(21:01):
life comes crashing down on people, and now in the
secular world, forget football, forget athleticism. When all of a
sudden you find men who are factory workers and who
worked forever, and all of a sudden they call it
quits at sixty five. You find them die so quickly
in life. And sometimes it's because their purpose is fulfilled,
(21:25):
or they didn't have a plan B, or they don't
have hobbies or things to rely upon after their retirement.
So all of a sudden, it is such an adjustment
to what they do with their day. And when this
is happening to you at thirty five and forty years old,
(21:45):
not sixty five or seventy years old, you had better
have something. Even if you are so rich that you
have all the money in the world that you don't
have to work another day in your life. We are
not wired that way. As human beings need a purpose,
we need a goal, we need a drive, and so
I admire those players that have been able to turn
(22:08):
that corner in doing such a wonderful way, especially those
who are giving back to society or giving back to
the game, or being role models or mentors for young
people coming up in the ranks as well.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Mike Sherman, Kabir's former coach with the Packers, agrees with
father Jim. Football is not the only thing in life.
Speaker 8 (22:27):
I used to tell the players all the time. If
all you are is a football player and that's all
your identity, it's going to be a sad life for you.
You've got to be more than that. And the way
you get there is you have to give something of
yourself to others to allow yourself to become that. And
so it is important that the football players transition into
something other than football, whether it's youth football, whether it's
(22:50):
run their own business, whatever it is that they can do.
You know, most of them have enough money to not
have to do anything, but that's a pretty lonely existence,
and you know, I think give a lot of them
do get back to the community because of what they
were able to acquire.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Jeremiah Searles knows how difficult it is to walk away
from the game, the fans, and the routine of football.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I think a lot of guys that leave football a sudden,
this huge piece, I mean eighty to eighty five percent
of your life that's been your life since you were
a kid, most likely is just gone. Right, It's just gone,
and now you have this huge void that you have
to fill with something, and usually the something is instant
gratification or something very quickly that you can grab and
(23:32):
latch onto and just be a part of and just
fill the void because of emptiness, and that's where you
kind of spiral yourself versus I didn't just throw the
NFL away. I didn't just throw football away. I used
it to help propel me into my next career. And
a lot of guys just can't do that because of
how badly they felt like the NFL burned them as
they walked out.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Jeremiah says he knows some ex players who have gotten
in touch with their spiritual side with retirement.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
I've seen it happen beautifully, where guys retire and they
know that their purpose is no longer in football, but
they find purpose in life in God. Happened to me.
I mean, I was got saved in twenty eighteen. Thought
I was going to play another ten years in league,
only ended up playing another eighteen months before my career
was over. And without my faith, without my family, I
don't know where I would have been.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
Jeremiah first learned about his ex teammate TJ's big spiritual
shift on Facebook. He scrolled past a YouTube video that
TJ posted in twenty twenty one. It was titled final
Warning to Christiana Clemings, There's no eternal inheritance for you.
Jeremiah started watching. He was surprised by what TJ was saying,
like he answers only to the laws of yacht and
(24:37):
even admonishing viewers who think he's abandoned his family and
joined a cult.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
What is this that he's talking about? Who is he
talking about?
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Like, But at the same time, it was kind of
I had no idea, right, I mean him and I
hadn't stayed in touch, and so just a lot of
confusing thoughts that went through it, but also kind of
a I hope you're okay, buddy type of thing, right
Like that was a more piece to it for me
was I'm not here to judge anybody. I'm not here
to be called to judge anyone. I just hope he's okay.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Jeremiah was worried about TJ because he'd never seen another
former teammate act so differently than the guy he knew.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I haven't really seen anyone that's like jumped off into
people called a cold, people called a following, whatever it is, like,
I haven't really seen much of that.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
No, but there are four players who jumped all in. Kabir,
Robert Daniel, and TJ chose a post football life that
works for them. In a YouTube video called from NFL
to Servant, the four ex nflers sit in the Straightway
Tabernacle discussing their playing days and their decision to choose Straightway.
(25:39):
Here's Kabir, and we.
Speaker 11 (25:41):
See people are peers. We've seen celebrities make money and
they're unhappy. They're some of the most unhappiest people in
the world. When you come to this man to the straightway.
You see people that are happy, truly have a piece
that passes all understanding. And us who's been in that
world would tell you in the heart.
Speaker 6 (26:00):
This is the place to be.
Speaker 11 (26:01):
But on the outside it looks like, Oh, they don't
get out the the amenities and all this stuff. And
when you come here and you around the people, it's contagious.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
If they hadn't played in the NFL, Robert Daniel, Kabir
and TJ might still have found their way to Pastor
Dowell's YouTube channel. Some of them may still have left
their first wives and children behind for a different life.
We'll never know the answer to that, but we do
know from our conversations with Bryce Pop and other former
players that the all encompassing NFL experience and the sudden
(26:31):
and mostly uncontrollable end to those careers creates a void
that players need to fill with something equally meaningful.
Speaker 9 (26:38):
When players get done, they're fragile and their egos are hurting.
They don't know who they are for the most part.
So that you get in with people like that and
they tell you what you want to hear and buy
out climbing Center.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Some might say Kabir and TJ Spirals, but they might
say for the first time they're grounded.
Speaker 12 (27:00):
Now the narrative of man TJ is going crazy. He's
lost his mind, He's joined a cult. It is crazy.
The moment you start actually trying to say, you know what,
let me do, let me try, let me loosely try
with the smallest thing, Let me try to actually start
doing what this Bible says to do. Now you're in
a cult.
Speaker 1 (27:21):
That's a wrap on Spirals. Thank you for listening this season.
Skyrold is a production of Sports Illustrated Studios, iHeart Podcasts
and One on One Studios podcast. The show was reported
by me Kaylen Taylor, with additional reporting by senior producer
Buffy Gorilla. Writing service provided by Buffy Gorilla and Jen Kinney,
(27:44):
sound design, mixing and mastering by Charlie Kaier. Sarah Sneath
is our fact checker. Scott Stone is our executive producer,
and Daniel Waxman is Director of podcast Development and podcast
production Manager at One on One Studios. At iHeart podcast,
Shan Tutone is our executive producer. Dushall. Thank you to
Michelle Newman, David Glasser, and David Houtkin from One on
one Studios. For more shows from iHeart Podcasts, go visit
(28:07):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Kalyn Kahler
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