August 28, 2018 • 32 mins
Growing up in a small town in Illinois, musician Pete Wentz didn’t look or feel like others in his community, and never really felt that he fit in. So, he set out to create an identity of his own. On the latest episode of Spit, host Baratunde Thurston sits with Pete and medical geneticist and independent academic Dr. Robert Green to discuss how learning our DNA results can open up the stories of our past and reshape the trajectory of our future. In part 1 of the show, Pete shares his curiosity about what he might learn through taking the test. Dr. Green provides insight into what people can expect from at-home DNA tests, and the nuances around genetic probability. And in part 2, we get Pete’s real-time reaction to his results. Throughout it all, the trio discuss everything from personal identity and creating your own tribe to baby sequencing and whether Danny DeVito and Arnold Schwarzenegger really did share the same DNA in “Twins.” Pete Wentz is currently on tour with Fall Out Boy, promoting the release of their newest EP “Lake Effect Kid”. Dr. Green has collaborated with 23andMe on NIH-funded research but his opinions are his own and should not be considered an endorsement of 23andMe or any other company. Spit is an iHeartRadio podcast with 23andMe. Enjoy this episode? Subscribe, rate and review Spit on Apple Podcasts. And be sure to tell your friends all about it. Find out more about our host Baratunde Thurston at Baratunde.com or sign up for his text messages at 202.902.7949 using #spitpodcast
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm Baritone Day Thurston and this is Spit and I
Heart Radio podcast with twenty three in me. This is
the podcast that explores how DNA is changing our lives
and the world around us. Today, we're delving deep into
that all important topic identity. Have always been like kind
of like on the Island of misfit toys, you know,
and then if I find out that I actually have
(00:24):
like a toy Home of the weird and we have
an amazing duel of guests to help chart our courts.
First off is the celebrated Basis songwriter and author Pete
Wentz and joining him as independent academic Dr Robert Green.
In addition to teaching genetics at Harvard Medical School, Dr
(00:44):
Green is the director of the G two P Research
Program at Brigham and Women's Hospital and the Broad Institute. Now,
today's show is gonna be a cliffhanger resources because Pete's
interested in finding out all about himself and his genetic makeup.
We're gonna have him spit, that is, take the DNA test,
and then in part two of the show, we'll check
(01:05):
back in with Pete right after he gets his results
to hear what he's learned. So gear up for some revelations,
some realizations, and some fun. We are going to talk
about genetics again through the story of discovering things about
ourselves and about health. And I want to start with you, Pete.
You have a fascinating background. We've all read Wikipedia and
(01:26):
understand some about you, but I'd love to know, first
of all, why are you interested in learning about yourself
from a genetic perspective? Like where do you well? I mean,
I think that it's interesting to know where you've come from.
I think particularly I have I have three kids, so
I think that that's you know, you want to pass
that information along in the form of either story or
(01:49):
medical or whatever. You know. Like, but I think that
for me being like a bit of like what I
would call like a kind of you know, it's like
it's pretty interesting because like, you know, my three kids
all have really light eyes. It's just an interesting you know,
Like I think the genetics are a really wild interesting thing.
Obviously I know some stories, but they're you know, stories,
so it's like hard is They're not scientific, you know,
(02:11):
so it's interesting. In the stories that you've been told,
did they call you a mutt or did you come
up with that term for yourself, Like no, no, no no,
I you know, I'm just not a sure bread. I'm
just not so like. No, no, no, I mean no
one's I don't think anyone's called me. Maybe I don't know, no,
but I mean it's just the suburbs that I grew
up in and stuff. I just didn't I didn't look
(02:31):
like anybody. I just didn't feel like I looked like
anybody kind of, you know, I just looked like my
brother and sister kind of. So that didn't like inform
a ton of my personality. I don't think. Maybe it did,
I don't know, but like, I think it would be
interesting to know since we have more of the technology
to be able to do it, Like why would you
not find out? It doesn't need to be like a
scary thing or super interesting thing, like you don't have
to be like have royal blood or something like. I mean,
(02:52):
it would all be nice. I guess, Robert, what do
you find in terms of people's reasons for even being
curious in asking this question? Pete is just he's interested.
He sounds really open minded. There's nothing he's afraid of.
It sounds like, but what are you seeing in terms
of the folks you work with, the studies you've done. Yeah,
a lot of people are interested in their ancestry and
their background, and a lot of people are interested in
(03:12):
the health aspects. And the people are interested in health
aspects are interested because they want to do something with it.
They want to inform their children, they want to inform themselves.
They want to be empowered by the notion that they
can learn something about the probability of getting an illness
in the future. And when you talk about and think
about your kids, thin any particular concerns or things that
excite you about what you might be able to share
(03:34):
with them, you know, through a process like this. I mean,
there's just like blind spots where my family has described
where we've come from. I don't really think I have
specific like medical concerns. I'm interested in finding out about it,
but I don't have There's nothing like that is discussed
in my family or you know, or common issues that
have come up you know, or whatever. But I'm still
interested in finding that out. I did my own genetic test,
(03:56):
and I also had a lot of blind spots in
my family story. I grew up just with my mother.
I didn't have access to my father's side or stories
of that. And I got really excited about the sort
of trait and wellness sections of the results because it
said I had high probability of like the musculature of
(04:18):
a competitive elite athlete. And I'm like, Okay, science says
I'm an elite athlete. That's great, Like I want to
run with that. I know you used to play soccer.
Are you like hoping for maybe there's a genetic support
for your talent in the sport. I can tell you
that there is not not need a genetic test to
see that one to find that one out. Yeah, yeah,
I think there's an inherent thing that like where there's
(04:39):
a probability of something. You're like, well, it says I
should be Michael Jordan's, but I'm not Michael Jordan's, So like,
how do I like resolve that discrepancy? You know what
I mean? Like it's like probably could be weird, I guess. Yeah.
And Pete, that's a great point about genetic testing in general,
that people are learning from this that it's not super
deterministic that just because you have a probability of having
(05:01):
a talent, or just because you have a probability of
having disease does not mean you're definitely going to get it.
That's sort of one of the psychological changes that these
services are promoting throughout the whole society. Here's what you
probably could get, you probably won't get it, And so
I'm like, so should I be worried? You know? On
the trade side, it's like, well, I don't look like that,
(05:22):
So am I wrong? Or is the science wrong? Right? Said,
I'm likely have like straighter hair and not very thick hair,
have super thick, wooly hair. So who's wrong here? Or
is that a probability thing? Like Robert helped me understand that,
Like Danny de Vito and Arnold Schwarzenegger, right, yeah, yeah, exactly,
(05:43):
this guys standing beside each other and twins. You just
gotta find your Arnold, you know. Wow, that's it. We
have to find our arm this episode. But that's exactly right.
You know, neither our citizenry nor our doctors think very
well about probability, so we tend to simplify and if
it's a probability, we see it should be that. But
of course a probability means just a probability, and that's
(06:06):
the change in genetics is happening over the last decade
or two. Is it removing from thinking about genetics in
terms of you will get this disease with the mutation too, Oh,
you have a slightly higher or a slightly lower probability
of getting something. You talked about the blind spots that
you have had. But Peter, there are things that are
well within the light that you know about your health
(06:28):
history or your family history in general, in terms of
the parts that make up this multi multicolor multi ethnic
spectrum that that you've brought to the table. Are there
things that I'm sure of? Yeah? Yeah, like what if?
What did you know? Well? I don't know that, Like
how sure you can be of any of it? Because
people create stories to either cover things up or create
(06:49):
stories when you don't have the information you know, and
then those stories kind of like become facts as they
get passed along. My maternal grandpa was second generation Jamaican American.
His parents came here, but he has like light blue eyes.
There's like these stories of Portuguese Jews that like I
(07:11):
don't but I'm like, I don't know. It was like,
so that sounds like such a story you would make
up because you have light eyes or something. I don't know,
you know, I don't know. I'm not really sure. And
like Jamaica is maybe the only place that's as big
of a kind of melting pot as the United States
of America. So like who knows people were it was
like a report. People were coming from everywhere, you know,
So I don't really know, but it's it's be interesting
(07:32):
to find out or it's not interesting. Like it's like
I feel like everybody goes into these tests well that
I know who we're going into them. We're going into
them without saying that they're going into it for medical reason.
Everyone's like we've got Native American and you know, because
everybody wants to be more like you have a texture
and be more like no one wants to be like
just plane plane, you know what I mean. I mean, Robert,
(07:52):
it's probably like the one area where people think that
they don't want to be you know. Yeah, I mean
the tests are what they come back and then like
I feel like every time I've seen one, I always
see like point something percent sub Saharan African for everybody.
I don't know, Like I guess it's just like the
cradle or some of it's interesting and some of it
maybe like we're a lot more similar than we are
(08:13):
probably that different, honestly, right, Yeah, Yeah, that's one of
the sort of most uplifting messages about genetics is how
much we share in common between each other and how
little is divided among us. I want to focus on
what you said, Pete, about what you know may not
be a fact. It could just be a story, and
it could be covering for something that we didn't know,
(08:34):
or creating something because we knew the opposite. And in
science and in what we understand about genetics, can you
talk about, Robert, how there's also stories there that we
get attached to that may not necessarily be factual. Sure,
you know that there has been a story in genetics
that came from the very first discoveries that were made
that if you have a certain mutation or change in
(08:56):
your DNA, you're gonna get that disease. And that's true
for a few diseases, and that kind of became our
mental story, and it got backed up by all these
cops shows, where you know, if you find the DNA
in the field, it definitely identifies the killer. I'm glad
we finally we're able to blame Hollywood, Thank you for
doing I will keep doing that because genetics isn't that way.
(09:17):
Most of genetics that we've really discovered has been probabilistic.
If you have this particular marker or the set of markers,
you're at a increased risk, sometimes a very small increased
risk for heart disease or cancer or something else. So
one of the confusing aspects of this is that there
will be markers like the b r c A markers
in some direct consumer geneic tests that do put you
(09:40):
at a dramatically increased risk, and then there's lots of
other markers that simply give you a little bit of
probabilistic information. One of my concerns is that we're getting
this information. We learned that we have this higher chance
of something horrible or just something interesting, but you know,
off of the plane path. But there are also other determinants, right,
(10:02):
Because if genetics alone are our destiny, what about the
air quality, what about our diet, what about how much
we go to soul cycle? And so how are we
supposed to balance what we have control over versus you know,
what we were born with. Again, a very small proportion
that people are going to have some kind of mutation
(10:23):
that really dramatically increases their chances. But for most of
us heart disease, cancer, diabetes, they are way more dependent
on your lifestyle. They're way more dependent on your weight,
your exercise, whether or not you smoke or not, things
like that. How's your lifestyle? Um, you know, I have
a certain assumption about your your world in in terms
(10:43):
of the lifestyle that's really really unhealthy. But maybe yours
is healthy. Well, I have three kids, so don't sleep ever, right.
I think that like the rock and roll excess lifestyle,
this generation of musicians, at least we saw we were
like raised watching behind the music. You're just like, oh,
well that's how that one ends, you know whatever. I
(11:05):
don't know we do we were never really like that band,
you know or whatever. Yeah, I mean, I don't think
my lifestyle is like I worked out before I came
here today, you know. I mean I don't. I don't
think it's it's actually a requirement anyone who does this show.
You have to exercise before you come into the studio.
I don't smoke a drink. I don't do drugs. Sounds good, yeah,
probably probably okay, probably this episode probably with dr Green,
(11:30):
You're probably all right, So when you get your director
consumer jack testing, it's probably not going to show you
anything extremely scary. How do how do you think about
Pete sharing these results in terms of how it changes
your story within your family, for those you came from
and for those you've helped create, or how it affects
you know, what you put out into the world in
terms of authorship, music, lyrics, etcetera. I think it's really
(11:53):
good as far as like sharing with my kids and
my family. I don't know about you know, sharing what
you share with the world. I think that like it
or not, people like alter the way they think when
they have preconceived ideas. You know. It's just it's an
interesting thing. I think that's really specific too. Somebody who
just kind of doesn't really fit in anywhere that like
(12:14):
the minute you put out where you do fit in.
I guess when you find that out, then people are like, oh,
I had a pegged right the whole time, you know,
or whatever. Whereas when you're just like, well, I've never
never been really part of any community, you know, it's
like a little weird to like think that you might
be a part of one or something. You know, like
I've always been like kind of like on the island
of misfit toys, you know, and then if I find
out that I actually have like a toy home, you know,
(12:38):
I'd be weird. I guess it's to home. Yeah, yeah,
you might be adopted by some other communities. When when
you doc are thinking about people sharing their information, you know,
the idea of privacy and control over our genetic information
is a hot topic. It feels like it's complicated. What
are some of the outlines and contours of that decision.
(12:59):
It's a huge area for all the reasons you mentioned.
We have a study going on now where we're sequencing
newborn babies, and when we approach the parents in the
hospital of newborn babies and say hey, would you want
your infant sequenced, about eight or of them say no.
And the biggest reason they say no is concerns about
privacy and discrimination for those babies, because we just don't
have it down yet to protect those babies or any
(13:23):
of us from intrusion, from hacking, from possibility of discrimination.
So it's a big issue. It needs to be solved.
M Having said that, I think that genetics is just
growing faster and better, and I do believe that eventually
the benefits are going to outweigh these concerns for many people.
So I'm bullish on genetics, but it's a huge it's
(13:45):
a huge and realistic concern. Kind of sucks that people
discriminating against babies didn't it right, Yeah, babies. All babies
are kind of great. They are. There's I mean, I've
met maybe three I didn't like, but that's out a hundreds,
Like it's a really low ratio. Most babies are great.
You've met my three children. It's all kind of like
(14:06):
a get movie gatica, you know what I mean a
little bit because the one guy like has none of
the right stuff, but like just has something inside of
him that just drives him to like swim across the lake.
Or the secret is that I never saved anything for
swimming back exactly, which is great. That's like such a
good line that. Yeah, so clearly he did have the
right stuff. Maybe the test didn't reveal it. Is there
(14:28):
an example, Pete from not from the genetic side. But
what I read about you, and I'd love you to
correct me if I'm wrong, is that you chose music
in part because it felt like more of a challenge,
you know, in your younger years, versus some of the
sports and other activities you were doing. First of all,
can you fact check me? Is that sure? Yeah? I
think that's kind of true. Yeah, that's true. I mean
(14:48):
it's like a feeling, so it's hard to be like
really factual. But I'm sitting here right now I can
say that I felt it felt true. And how would
you describe your persistence in music? Like you've been in
this industry, I think longer an average. You've evolved through it,
You've done a bunch of other things, but you still
making music right. Well, I mean I think that it's
anyone when you find something that you're passionate about that
(15:11):
goes beyond hobbyists, you know, because there's plenty off I
have like zilion hobbyists, you know, or whatever, but there's
something that like you're actually like people are like, oh,
they refer tun as like your career or whatever. You know.
Like the way I think that at least I'm set
up as a human is like I'm like, well, this
is the path that I'm on, and I can bend
this path around different ways and stuff, but I'm on
like a basic kind of path. Yeah, so I think
that that's probably what what it's been. And I think
(15:33):
as far as like the lenitivity is like this is
so not part of the genetic desk or whatever. But
it's like the people that I've you know, surrounded myself
with who are like really helpful and good support network
and help me keep me accountable, but inspire me that
kind of thing. You know, how would you describe what
you're up to in music right now versus what you
might have been doing twenty years ago, ten twenty years ago,
(15:56):
Like if someone was like music will being like this
cloud or whatever, you know, it's just like this stickle things,
you know. So it's just the way people consume music
is so different, you know, like my nine year old
listens to songs, listened to a little oozy and then
listen to like a Queen song and then like people
can curate their own lives now, you know. And so
I think music is more important than it has ever been,
you know, because to borrow an idea that my friend
(16:18):
Evan said, like, no one goes like, you know, I'm
feeling the saddest I've ever felt. Let me like open
an app right now, you know, whatever, Like everybody listens
to music. You can set your watch two different things
you've done in your life and the way songs have
made you feel. And in the nineties you're listening to
like Wu Tang or what you know, like whatever it is,
like musical markers and and and like for sure you
(16:41):
like go back and listen to a lot of that
music and some of it doesn't hold up and some
of it does. And so I think it's it's just
how people take in music and how people take in
entertainment now is just very different than it was when
we started. And it's kind of interesting to be a band.
It was part of the tail end of like this
other version of it, you know, and then was at
(17:01):
the start of the new version of it. And I
think the chasm has never been wider between artists. There's
these all these artists that like if you only kind
of pay attention to mainstream culture, you probably don't really
know about them. But they're like massive, you know what
I mean, And they're like just under the surface, and
I think that people like listen to them and interact
with them in ways that people probably aren't really paying
(17:24):
attention to. Well, you know, there's a kind of a parallel.
I hope it's not too much of a stretch in
science and in the genetics world, because many people see
what we're talking about today direct to consumer genetics, the
democratization of certain markers as the gateway to a whole
new world of bio hacking, of evolving ourselves. People compare
(17:46):
this to the electronic revolution. And then the same way
that we couldn't imagine carrying around all this music from
the cloud in our pockets, people are talking about how
everything we do will be interacting with our biology, with
our genetics, with our other Oh mix are proteo mix,
our transcripto mix, our metabolo mix are microbiomics. And this
(18:07):
kind of big data, big biology future is perhaps presaged
in some ways by what you're describingload your consciousness, right,
just like I was reading about that the other day,
Wild Wild, Yeah, No, I thank you for seeing that connection.
I don't think it's a big stretch at all. I
think what we saw happen with music was an early
(18:30):
marker of what we're seeing happen to everything else, from
finance to personal health. The same way that I'm discovering
new music because of my pattern of interaction with the
music I've known. I may discover new parts of myself
through genetics because of my pattern of interaction, you know,
with the environment around me over time. Think the idea
of a personal genetics playlist just occurred to me. Pete,
(18:52):
you're gonna think this has nothing to do with genetics.
How have the stories of you that you grew up
with that you've learned influenced music you've been making. I'm
not sure that like particular stories have influenced it, but
I do think that it's a weird thing where like
when you feel like you're not really like part of
a tribe, it makes it easier for you to set
your own course. I think, you know, in some ways,
(19:13):
like I remember reading the Gladwell book where he talks
about like the people who are the near misses. So
like when the bombings happened in London, I'm talking in
World War two, Yeah, the blitz that the people that
were blown up obviously they had one path and then
the people who were far away from the bombings were
completely terrified. But the people that were like the near
(19:35):
misses were fortified and because of that they like, we're like, no,
we're staying here and it does something. And I think
that maybe not just feeling like you're part of a thing,
like it just makes it so your destiny in your
head can be whatever it is, and if you fail,
it doesn't really matter because you weren't you just never
had something. You really weren't supposed to be an investment
banker or whatever. Yeah, you know, so like it for
(19:55):
me personally, it sent me up in a way where
I was like pervious to all this because yeah, like
you said, there wasn't like an expectation, like I don't
feel like I like look like anybody else or feel
like anybody else. I think that for a lot of
people that's like really sad, but like for me at least,
and I think for my brother and sister, like, oh
that's cool. Well I can just like start my own
community and I can find my own friends, and it's
(20:15):
like the inception of who you are or something, you know,
like not having the stories or not having the community
kind of like lets you create whatever it is. And
I also want to live forever. Pete, You've mentioned that
you have three children. You're obviously very musically talented. Are
you starting to see any musical talent in your children.
(20:36):
I think I see some interest in the way things work,
you know, and the inner workings, and everyone wants to
like open up the clock and look at the inside
of the clock and the way that it works. I
come from like a family that's Philadelphia lawyers, so it's
like all litigation. It's again like the thing that we
talked about is like you can't let what your potential
be determined by what you've theoretically could become. As a parent,
(21:01):
I don't want my kids to feel like they have
big shoes to feel. I don't want my kids to
feel like they need to be driven to the point
of feeling like they're broken in order to succeed, you know.
I don't know. I just think you see it's like
a little bit early, but I think at some point
you see like where somebody's naturally headed and you try
to like magnify that. Probably, but I don't know. I
don't see, Like like my nine year old takes piano
lessons and stuff like that, and he's, like I said,
(21:22):
he's interested in the inner workings and why songs or
pop songs and like what's different about this song and
then that song that's kind of where we're at. I
think I have a follow up question for you. You
sound like a great dad. Oh man, will you agree
my dad? I'm ready, I'm ready to say. I mean,
what's the difference between three and four? Really? You know,
I can just like slide right into that family. That's great.
(21:43):
You know, on the scientific and genetic front, do we
know anything about proficiency and certain activities sports music through
through genetics? Almost all of these personality traits and talent
based things are definitely have genetic foundations, but they are
probably due to so many genetic markers that are so
complex that you won't be able to measure them, if ever,
(22:06):
for a long long time. So that's one of the
areas I think we have to be careful. There are
kind of bottom feeder companies that are already out there
saying we can predict whether your child is going to
be a sprinter, we can predict whether your child is
going to be a musician, and we should be cautious
about that. And can you like you can like, uh,
you could like spin up one of those babies. Yeah,
you know, I mean I'm totally serious. So I have
(22:28):
two boys and my third as a girl, and her
doctor was like, you know, prepared for a boy. You know,
I've definitely heard people talk about that you can like
spin what you wanted, spin it up in like a
lab or something, right, you can if there are reproductive
technologies to pick a boy or a girl. Yeah, yeah,
we didn't do it because I feel like you if
(22:49):
you end up and then the person has like some
special difficulties in life, you're like, did I create those
difficulties for that person? We're gonna face that, and Janice
is going to play a role in that as we
anticipate all these markers and then you can pick embryos
that particularly carry the markers that you want. But again,
we're just going to have to admit that the complexity
of some of these traits intelligence, personality, musical ability, athletic ability, health,
(23:14):
health risks are mostly multi factorial, and they're very heavily
dependent on the context you live and the parenting you get.
So I would say being a good parent is way
more important than your genes and most of them. And
could you imagine like you spin up like a Serena
Williams and then the person is like not good at tennis?
Like how crazy would that be? For the you know,
like I would be imagined that would be insane. You know, Yeah,
(23:37):
they're gonna be disappointments. Yeah, they're right. I mean like
it's got to happen. Yeah, it probably will. It probably will.
Thank you for validating that. I think everybody in the room,
I felt like, gave me a look when I said
you could spin up the thing. But I've I've seriously
been told that, and I gave you that look because
I'm like, it's it sounds horrible, and I'm sure it's
(23:58):
technically possible. I think there's some areas of the world
with different ethical valides where it's happening. So it's going
to be a new challenge unfortunately. Well, and we're on
the cusp of being able to edit genes, and we
get there and you've got these embryos in front of you.
You can go in and edit which ones you want
to do exactly right. How does it not go sideways
(24:19):
and become like eugenics or something? How does it not
go that direction? Yeah, great question, No easy answers, man.
I think we just got to keep ourselves tethered to
the truth even as we think these expansive ideas and
enjoy this new expansive space. There's a lot of marketing
going on, there's a lot of corporations pushing this, but
there's also some correctives. Even our government, which is not
(24:42):
usually seen as sort of cutting edge, has initiated this
project called All of Us, which is going to enroll
a million Americans, very diverse backgrounds, including people who do
not have a lot of money, and they're going to
offer them information about themselves, including genetic information about themselves.
So there's some correctives place I think that are pretty
exciting that will balance the marketing efforts to go forward
(25:06):
as well, and in terms of how we keep it
to the positive route when the GPS as opposed to
the like Gattica in the eugenics type route, I think
staying involved and invested in that conversation is a part
of it. There's this balance that I feel about determinism
versus probability, versus freedom, and and it's not necessarily even
(25:27):
versus it's it's a inclusion of all those things. And
so Pete, the absence of some story for you was
liberating and you could forward your own path and set
your own GPS. You also may discover that you're part
of communities you didn't even know yet, and hopefully that's
enhancing for you and and not threatening. And I think
you know, for the wider field of genomics and personal genomics,
(25:50):
we want that balance. We want to belong more than
ever to a group, to a tribe. We also don't
need to feel bound and determined by what the was.
Probably results tell us that we can still set our
own course. I want to thank both of you for
highlighting what's possible and not necessarily deterministic out of this.
(26:13):
I'd like to thank Pete Wins for being here. Has
been a real pleasure having you on SPIT. And Dr
Robert Green, thank you very much for all your CONSUCT
appreciate it was great. So a few weeks ago I
sat in this room with Pete Wentz of entrepreneurial rock
star fame, and he hadn't yet done his genetic test.
(26:33):
Uh in the weeks since he did in fact SPIT
and we got on the phone with him to talk
about what his results were, what surprised him, what contradicted
his experience or expectations, and what he took away from
the whole thing. Take a list. I want to first say,
welcome back to the show, Welcome back to Spit. When
(26:55):
last our heroes met, you were about to do what
show title is, You were about to spit to be
able to get your test results. Can you talk to
me first about taking the test? What was the process?
Were you able to generate the required saliva? Did you
drop the vial? Like? Tell me about that part. Oh? Yeah,
(27:16):
it's just it's a lot more spirit thinks that people
think or would realized. But it's pretty simple. Kid is
very self explanatory. So it's just pretty easy to do.
I think it's one of those ones that's very hard
to screw up. Good well, congratulations on passing stage one.
And when you when you first logged in and started
seeing results, what's the first thing you saw. I think
(27:37):
the first thing I saw was under like ancestry. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean it's just like kind of like, I'm pretty
mixed bag. You know, there was a lot more mixed
than I expected. I guess I don't know. You had
spoken when when last we met. You talked about not
being part of a tribe and that was part of
the way you grew up and there was some strengthen that.
Did you find out that you're a part of any
(28:00):
tribes or communities that you didn't know about what that
you suspected, but we're confirmed. That's really like with any
Portuguese Jews. Were there any Portuguese Jews? I don't think so.
I think that the interesting thing that and this is
probably the nature of the world history, is that probably
due to the fact that like so many people were
in for migration or just my you know, like whatever.
(28:21):
It's like I think when you find the European side
of you, you're like, oh, yeah, that's like my you know,
old country or whatever. But I had a lot of
moms side people from the Caribbean and from Jamaica, and
made me realize that there's finding out a ton of
people that are like from Jamaica, you know, like people
are coming there from other places, or there's a lot
of the like Nigerian and Iberian and East African and
(28:43):
stuff and summer heart that like really piece it together,
you know what I mean, Because it's like, yeah, I
don't know, like when was the last time like someone
from my family was like Nigeria, you know what I mean,
Like I mean, I wish it was probably sooner than
it actually was. No, No, that makes sense when you
described Jamaica. You've reminded us that it's like a port. Yeah. Um,
you know, it served as a port, and so in
some ways it sounds like it was a genetic port
(29:04):
as well. From a genetic perspective, it's hard to be
from Jamaica, and that's kind of a way station for
for genes from from other parts of the world. Yeah,
like we didn't come back like Jamaican, you know what
I mean? Right right, and on the characteristic side or
on any of the traits stuff. I mean. I I
remember in my results finding out it said that I
(29:27):
was going to be less likely to be able to
match a musical pitch, which I was like, first of all,
you're wrong. I have perfect tonal recall. I'm amazing. But
I'm curious for you to anything stand out from your
traits kind of results that you're you're willing to share.
It's interesting because you think you're saying it's some stuff
that I'm like, some stuff from like I don't know.
(29:49):
I got one back and said less likely to consume caffeine,
and I was like, oh my god, I drink so
much coffee. I was like, I don't know where, Like
it's very interesting of all that you look through in
your results, what's stood out the most, what was the
most interesting, whether it was surprising or not, whether it
confirmed in expectation or not. Totally you're like, oh, that's
that's notable. Tell me about that, yeah, totally. Um. The
(30:12):
thing that I was expected was like, you know, like
I've always felt a little bit like a big mix
or mud or something, and I really there was like
a lot of like maybe this is for everybody. So
I haven't seen anybody else's test results obviously, um, so
I don't know, but there was a lot of like
fo this four you know, four percent gonna you know,
or something like that. Like I was like, oh my god,
(30:34):
like it's interesting, and I got a feeling and maybe
it's not like going to be like obviously like subsident
and African for people, but like that we're all pretty
much a big mix. I mean no, maybe not we're all,
but a lot of us are probably like kind of
a mix, you know, because people have you know, the world.
We live in a very global place. And like there
was something peaceful about that where I was like, you know,
your neighbor probably have a mix in his is making
(30:55):
more like European, but I'm sure it's a big blend
as well, you know. And there was something that like
was reassuring to me about that a little bit, you know,
like there's something that like felt like maybe that's like
one of the like solutions for our world is that, like,
I mean, we're all really different, so we're all really
different than each other, but in a weird way that
makes it is all kind of similar because we're all
so different, you know, and that like I don't know
(31:16):
that I need to find somebody who had, like I
don't know how I'm gonna find somebody who has the
exact mix a similar mix of me, even like my
siblings or something, so like maybe you don't need somebody
who like looks like you, it feels like you maybe
you find people who would just like increase your happiness
or like makes the world feel like it's a little
bit smaller for you, and that's good enough. I don't know,
(31:37):
it's kind of cheesy, but like I actually that I
felt that. Yeah, I actually kind of did feel it.
Thank you for sharing that. I I feel it through
the phone line from you. The idea that what we
have in commonon is our difference is a beautiful concept
and one that science may help us find more common
than not. So thank you again, see good luck with
(32:00):
whatever is next in your life. I appreciate the extra time. Right,
have a great one, man, I want to dig in
more on today's topics and guests. Check our show notes
and if you enjoyed the episode, share it with a friend,
all your friends, and be sure to leave a review.
If you want to hear more surprising stories about how
we're all related, search and follow Spit on I Heart
(32:21):
Radio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Spit is
an I Heart Radio podcast with twenty three and me.
I'm Baritone Day Thurston. You can find out more about
me at baritone day dot com or sign up from
a text message is just hit me up at two
O two nine two seven nine four nine. Put hashtag
Spit podcasts in your message. I know where you came from.
I'm Baritone Day Thurston and this is Spit and I
Heart Radio podcast with twenty three in me. This is
the podcast that explores how DNA is changing our lives
and the world around us. Today, we're delving deep into
that all important topic identity. Have always been like kind
of like on the Island of misfit toys, you know,
and then if I find out that I actually have
(00:24):
like a toy Home of the weird and we have
an amazing duel of guests to help chart our courts.
First off is the celebrated Basis songwriter and author Pete
Wentz and joining him as independent academic Dr Robert Green.
In addition to teaching genetics at Harvard Medical School, Dr
(00:44):
Green is the director of the G two P Research
Program at Brigham and Women's Hospital and the Broad Institute. Now,
today's show is gonna be a cliffhanger resources because Pete's
interested in finding out all about himself and his genetic makeup.
We're gonna have him spit, that is, take the DNA test,
and then in part two of the show, we'll check
(01:05):
back in with Pete right after he gets his results
to hear what he's learned. So gear up for some revelations,
some realizations, and some fun. We are going to talk
about genetics again through the story of discovering things about
ourselves and about health. And I want to start with you, Pete.
You have a fascinating background. We've all read Wikipedia and
(01:26):
understand some about you, but I'd love to know, first
of all, why are you interested in learning about yourself
from a genetic perspective? Like where do you well? I mean,
I think that it's interesting to know where you've come from.
I think particularly I have I have three kids, so
I think that that's you know, you want to pass
that information along in the form of either story or
(01:49):
medical or whatever. You know. Like, but I think that
for me being like a bit of like what I
would call like a kind of you know, it's like
it's pretty interesting because like, you know, my three kids
all have really light eyes. It's just an interesting you know,
Like I think the genetics are a really wild interesting thing.
Obviously I know some stories, but they're you know, stories,
so it's like hard is They're not scientific, you know,
(02:11):
so it's interesting. In the stories that you've been told,
did they call you a mutt or did you come
up with that term for yourself, Like no, no, no no,
I you know, I'm just not a sure bread. I'm
just not so like. No, no, no, I mean no
one's I don't think anyone's called me. Maybe I don't know, no,
but I mean it's just the suburbs that I grew
up in and stuff. I just didn't I didn't look
(02:31):
like anybody. I just didn't feel like I looked like
anybody kind of, you know, I just looked like my
brother and sister kind of. So that didn't like inform
a ton of my personality. I don't think. Maybe it did,
I don't know, but like, I think it would be
interesting to know since we have more of the technology
to be able to do it, Like why would you
not find out? It doesn't need to be like a
scary thing or super interesting thing, like you don't have
to be like have royal blood or something like. I mean,
(02:52):
it would all be nice. I guess, Robert, what do
you find in terms of people's reasons for even being
curious in asking this question? Pete is just he's interested.
He sounds really open minded. There's nothing he's afraid of.
It sounds like, but what are you seeing in terms
of the folks you work with, the studies you've done. Yeah,
a lot of people are interested in their ancestry and
their background, and a lot of people are interested in
(03:12):
the health aspects. And the people are interested in health
aspects are interested because they want to do something with it.
They want to inform their children, they want to inform themselves.
They want to be empowered by the notion that they
can learn something about the probability of getting an illness
in the future. And when you talk about and think
about your kids, thin any particular concerns or things that
excite you about what you might be able to share
(03:34):
with them, you know, through a process like this. I mean,
there's just like blind spots where my family has described
where we've come from. I don't really think I have
specific like medical concerns. I'm interested in finding out about it,
but I don't have There's nothing like that is discussed
in my family or you know, or common issues that
have come up you know, or whatever. But I'm still
interested in finding that out. I did my own genetic test,
(03:56):
and I also had a lot of blind spots in
my family story. I grew up just with my mother.
I didn't have access to my father's side or stories
of that. And I got really excited about the sort
of trait and wellness sections of the results because it
said I had high probability of like the musculature of
(04:18):
a competitive elite athlete. And I'm like, Okay, science says
I'm an elite athlete. That's great, Like I want to
run with that. I know you used to play soccer.
Are you like hoping for maybe there's a genetic support
for your talent in the sport. I can tell you
that there is not not need a genetic test to
see that one to find that one out. Yeah, yeah,
I think there's an inherent thing that like where there's
(04:39):
a probability of something. You're like, well, it says I
should be Michael Jordan's, but I'm not Michael Jordan's, So like,
how do I like resolve that discrepancy? You know what
I mean? Like it's like probably could be weird, I guess. Yeah.
And Pete, that's a great point about genetic testing in general,
that people are learning from this that it's not super
deterministic that just because you have a probability of having
(05:01):
a talent, or just because you have a probability of
having disease does not mean you're definitely going to get it.
That's sort of one of the psychological changes that these
services are promoting throughout the whole society. Here's what you
probably could get, you probably won't get it, And so
I'm like, so should I be worried? You know? On
the trade side, it's like, well, I don't look like that,
(05:22):
So am I wrong? Or is the science wrong? Right? Said,
I'm likely have like straighter hair and not very thick hair,
have super thick, wooly hair. So who's wrong here? Or
is that a probability thing? Like Robert helped me understand that,
Like Danny de Vito and Arnold Schwarzenegger, right, yeah, yeah, exactly,
(05:43):
this guys standing beside each other and twins. You just
gotta find your Arnold, you know. Wow, that's it. We
have to find our arm this episode. But that's exactly right.
You know, neither our citizenry nor our doctors think very
well about probability, so we tend to simplify and if
it's a probability, we see it should be that. But
of course a probability means just a probability, and that's
(06:06):
the change in genetics is happening over the last decade
or two. Is it removing from thinking about genetics in
terms of you will get this disease with the mutation too, Oh,
you have a slightly higher or a slightly lower probability
of getting something. You talked about the blind spots that
you have had. But Peter, there are things that are
well within the light that you know about your health
(06:28):
history or your family history in general, in terms of
the parts that make up this multi multicolor multi ethnic
spectrum that that you've brought to the table. Are there
things that I'm sure of? Yeah? Yeah, like what if?
What did you know? Well? I don't know that, Like
how sure you can be of any of it? Because
people create stories to either cover things up or create
(06:49):
stories when you don't have the information you know, and
then those stories kind of like become facts as they
get passed along. My maternal grandpa was second generation Jamaican American.
His parents came here, but he has like light blue eyes.
There's like these stories of Portuguese Jews that like I
(07:11):
don't but I'm like, I don't know. It was like,
so that sounds like such a story you would make
up because you have light eyes or something. I don't know,
you know, I don't know. I'm not really sure. And
like Jamaica is maybe the only place that's as big
of a kind of melting pot as the United States
of America. So like who knows people were it was
like a report. People were coming from everywhere, you know,
So I don't really know, but it's it's be interesting
(07:32):
to find out or it's not interesting. Like it's like
I feel like everybody goes into these tests well that
I know who we're going into them. We're going into
them without saying that they're going into it for medical reason.
Everyone's like we've got Native American and you know, because
everybody wants to be more like you have a texture
and be more like no one wants to be like
just plane plane, you know what I mean. I mean, Robert,
(07:52):
it's probably like the one area where people think that
they don't want to be you know. Yeah, I mean
the tests are what they come back and then like
I feel like every time I've seen one, I always
see like point something percent sub Saharan African for everybody.
I don't know, Like I guess it's just like the
cradle or some of it's interesting and some of it
maybe like we're a lot more similar than we are
(08:13):
probably that different, honestly, right, Yeah, Yeah, that's one of
the sort of most uplifting messages about genetics is how
much we share in common between each other and how
little is divided among us. I want to focus on
what you said, Pete, about what you know may not
be a fact. It could just be a story, and
it could be covering for something that we didn't know,
(08:34):
or creating something because we knew the opposite. And in
science and in what we understand about genetics, can you
talk about, Robert, how there's also stories there that we
get attached to that may not necessarily be factual. Sure,
you know that there has been a story in genetics
that came from the very first discoveries that were made
that if you have a certain mutation or change in
(08:56):
your DNA, you're gonna get that disease. And that's true
for a few diseases, and that kind of became our
mental story, and it got backed up by all these
cops shows, where you know, if you find the DNA
in the field, it definitely identifies the killer. I'm glad
we finally we're able to blame Hollywood, Thank you for
doing I will keep doing that because genetics isn't that way.
(09:17):
Most of genetics that we've really discovered has been probabilistic.
If you have this particular marker or the set of markers,
you're at a increased risk, sometimes a very small increased
risk for heart disease or cancer or something else. So
one of the confusing aspects of this is that there
will be markers like the b r c A markers
in some direct consumer geneic tests that do put you
(09:40):
at a dramatically increased risk, and then there's lots of
other markers that simply give you a little bit of
probabilistic information. One of my concerns is that we're getting
this information. We learned that we have this higher chance
of something horrible or just something interesting, but you know,
off of the plane path. But there are also other determinants, right,
(10:02):
Because if genetics alone are our destiny, what about the
air quality, what about our diet, what about how much
we go to soul cycle? And so how are we
supposed to balance what we have control over versus you know,
what we were born with. Again, a very small proportion
that people are going to have some kind of mutation
(10:23):
that really dramatically increases their chances. But for most of
us heart disease, cancer, diabetes, they are way more dependent
on your lifestyle. They're way more dependent on your weight,
your exercise, whether or not you smoke or not, things
like that. How's your lifestyle? Um, you know, I have
a certain assumption about your your world in in terms
(10:43):
of the lifestyle that's really really unhealthy. But maybe yours
is healthy. Well, I have three kids, so don't sleep ever, right.
I think that like the rock and roll excess lifestyle,
this generation of musicians, at least we saw we were
like raised watching behind the music. You're just like, oh,
well that's how that one ends, you know whatever. I
(11:05):
don't know we do we were never really like that band,
you know or whatever. Yeah, I mean, I don't think
my lifestyle is like I worked out before I came
here today, you know. I mean I don't. I don't
think it's it's actually a requirement anyone who does this show.
You have to exercise before you come into the studio.
I don't smoke a drink. I don't do drugs. Sounds good, yeah,
probably probably okay, probably this episode probably with dr Green,
(11:30):
You're probably all right, So when you get your director
consumer jack testing, it's probably not going to show you
anything extremely scary. How do how do you think about
Pete sharing these results in terms of how it changes
your story within your family, for those you came from
and for those you've helped create, or how it affects
you know, what you put out into the world in
terms of authorship, music, lyrics, etcetera. I think it's really
(11:53):
good as far as like sharing with my kids and
my family. I don't know about you know, sharing what
you share with the world. I think that like it
or not, people like alter the way they think when
they have preconceived ideas. You know. It's just it's an
interesting thing. I think that's really specific too. Somebody who
just kind of doesn't really fit in anywhere that like
(12:14):
the minute you put out where you do fit in.
I guess when you find that out, then people are like, oh,
I had a pegged right the whole time, you know,
or whatever. Whereas when you're just like, well, I've never
never been really part of any community, you know, it's
like a little weird to like think that you might
be a part of one or something. You know, like
I've always been like kind of like on the island
of misfit toys, you know, and then if I find
out that I actually have like a toy home, you know,
(12:38):
I'd be weird. I guess it's to home. Yeah, yeah,
you might be adopted by some other communities. When when
you doc are thinking about people sharing their information, you know,
the idea of privacy and control over our genetic information
is a hot topic. It feels like it's complicated. What
are some of the outlines and contours of that decision.
(12:59):
It's a huge area for all the reasons you mentioned.
We have a study going on now where we're sequencing
newborn babies, and when we approach the parents in the
hospital of newborn babies and say hey, would you want
your infant sequenced, about eight or of them say no.
And the biggest reason they say no is concerns about
privacy and discrimination for those babies, because we just don't
have it down yet to protect those babies or any
(13:23):
of us from intrusion, from hacking, from possibility of discrimination.
So it's a big issue. It needs to be solved.
M Having said that, I think that genetics is just
growing faster and better, and I do believe that eventually
the benefits are going to outweigh these concerns for many people.
So I'm bullish on genetics, but it's a huge it's
(13:45):
a huge and realistic concern. Kind of sucks that people
discriminating against babies didn't it right, Yeah, babies. All babies
are kind of great. They are. There's I mean, I've
met maybe three I didn't like, but that's out a hundreds,
Like it's a really low ratio. Most babies are great.
You've met my three children. It's all kind of like
(14:06):
a get movie gatica, you know what I mean a
little bit because the one guy like has none of
the right stuff, but like just has something inside of
him that just drives him to like swim across the lake.
Or the secret is that I never saved anything for
swimming back exactly, which is great. That's like such a
good line that. Yeah, so clearly he did have the
right stuff. Maybe the test didn't reveal it. Is there
(14:28):
an example, Pete from not from the genetic side. But
what I read about you, and I'd love you to
correct me if I'm wrong, is that you chose music
in part because it felt like more of a challenge,
you know, in your younger years, versus some of the
sports and other activities you were doing. First of all,
can you fact check me? Is that sure? Yeah? I
think that's kind of true. Yeah, that's true. I mean
(14:48):
it's like a feeling, so it's hard to be like
really factual. But I'm sitting here right now I can
say that I felt it felt true. And how would
you describe your persistence in music? Like you've been in
this industry, I think longer an average. You've evolved through it,
You've done a bunch of other things, but you still
making music right. Well, I mean I think that it's
anyone when you find something that you're passionate about that
(15:11):
goes beyond hobbyists, you know, because there's plenty off I
have like zilion hobbyists, you know, or whatever, but there's
something that like you're actually like people are like, oh,
they refer tun as like your career or whatever. You know.
Like the way I think that at least I'm set
up as a human is like I'm like, well, this
is the path that I'm on, and I can bend
this path around different ways and stuff, but I'm on
like a basic kind of path. Yeah, so I think
that that's probably what what it's been. And I think
(15:33):
as far as like the lenitivity is like this is
so not part of the genetic desk or whatever. But
it's like the people that I've you know, surrounded myself
with who are like really helpful and good support network
and help me keep me accountable, but inspire me that
kind of thing. You know, how would you describe what
you're up to in music right now versus what you
might have been doing twenty years ago, ten twenty years ago,
(15:56):
Like if someone was like music will being like this
cloud or whatever, you know, it's just like this stickle things,
you know. So it's just the way people consume music
is so different, you know, like my nine year old
listens to songs, listened to a little oozy and then
listen to like a Queen song and then like people
can curate their own lives now, you know. And so
I think music is more important than it has ever been,
you know, because to borrow an idea that my friend
(16:18):
Evan said, like, no one goes like, you know, I'm
feeling the saddest I've ever felt. Let me like open
an app right now, you know, whatever, Like everybody listens
to music. You can set your watch two different things
you've done in your life and the way songs have
made you feel. And in the nineties you're listening to
like Wu Tang or what you know, like whatever it is,
like musical markers and and and like for sure you
(16:41):
like go back and listen to a lot of that
music and some of it doesn't hold up and some
of it does. And so I think it's it's just
how people take in music and how people take in
entertainment now is just very different than it was when
we started. And it's kind of interesting to be a band.
It was part of the tail end of like this
other version of it, you know, and then was at
(17:01):
the start of the new version of it. And I
think the chasm has never been wider between artists. There's
these all these artists that like if you only kind
of pay attention to mainstream culture, you probably don't really
know about them. But they're like massive, you know what
I mean, And they're like just under the surface, and
I think that people like listen to them and interact
with them in ways that people probably aren't really paying
(17:24):
attention to. Well, you know, there's a kind of a parallel.
I hope it's not too much of a stretch in
science and in the genetics world, because many people see
what we're talking about today direct to consumer genetics, the
democratization of certain markers as the gateway to a whole
new world of bio hacking, of evolving ourselves. People compare
(17:46):
this to the electronic revolution. And then the same way
that we couldn't imagine carrying around all this music from
the cloud in our pockets, people are talking about how
everything we do will be interacting with our biology, with
our genetics, with our other Oh mix are proteo mix,
our transcripto mix, our metabolo mix are microbiomics. And this
(18:07):
kind of big data, big biology future is perhaps presaged
in some ways by what you're describingload your consciousness, right,
just like I was reading about that the other day,
Wild Wild, Yeah, No, I thank you for seeing that connection.
I don't think it's a big stretch at all. I
think what we saw happen with music was an early
(18:30):
marker of what we're seeing happen to everything else, from
finance to personal health. The same way that I'm discovering
new music because of my pattern of interaction with the
music I've known. I may discover new parts of myself
through genetics because of my pattern of interaction, you know,
with the environment around me over time. Think the idea
of a personal genetics playlist just occurred to me. Pete,
(18:52):
you're gonna think this has nothing to do with genetics.
How have the stories of you that you grew up
with that you've learned influenced music you've been making. I'm
not sure that like particular stories have influenced it, but
I do think that it's a weird thing where like
when you feel like you're not really like part of
a tribe, it makes it easier for you to set
your own course. I think, you know, in some ways,
(19:13):
like I remember reading the Gladwell book where he talks
about like the people who are the near misses. So
like when the bombings happened in London, I'm talking in
World War two, Yeah, the blitz that the people that
were blown up obviously they had one path and then
the people who were far away from the bombings were
completely terrified. But the people that were like the near
(19:35):
misses were fortified and because of that they like, we're like, no,
we're staying here and it does something. And I think
that maybe not just feeling like you're part of a thing,
like it just makes it so your destiny in your
head can be whatever it is, and if you fail,
it doesn't really matter because you weren't you just never
had something. You really weren't supposed to be an investment
banker or whatever. Yeah, you know, so like it for
(19:55):
me personally, it sent me up in a way where
I was like pervious to all this because yeah, like
you said, there wasn't like an expectation, like I don't
feel like I like look like anybody else or feel
like anybody else. I think that for a lot of
people that's like really sad, but like for me at least,
and I think for my brother and sister, like, oh
that's cool. Well I can just like start my own
community and I can find my own friends, and it's
(20:15):
like the inception of who you are or something, you know,
like not having the stories or not having the community
kind of like lets you create whatever it is. And
I also want to live forever. Pete, You've mentioned that
you have three children. You're obviously very musically talented. Are
you starting to see any musical talent in your children.
(20:36):
I think I see some interest in the way things work,
you know, and the inner workings, and everyone wants to
like open up the clock and look at the inside
of the clock and the way that it works. I
come from like a family that's Philadelphia lawyers, so it's
like all litigation. It's again like the thing that we
talked about is like you can't let what your potential
be determined by what you've theoretically could become. As a parent,
(21:01):
I don't want my kids to feel like they have
big shoes to feel. I don't want my kids to
feel like they need to be driven to the point
of feeling like they're broken in order to succeed, you know.
I don't know. I just think you see it's like
a little bit early, but I think at some point
you see like where somebody's naturally headed and you try
to like magnify that. Probably, but I don't know. I
don't see, Like like my nine year old takes piano
lessons and stuff like that, and he's, like I said,
(21:22):
he's interested in the inner workings and why songs or
pop songs and like what's different about this song and
then that song that's kind of where we're at. I
think I have a follow up question for you. You
sound like a great dad. Oh man, will you agree
my dad? I'm ready, I'm ready to say. I mean,
what's the difference between three and four? Really? You know,
I can just like slide right into that family. That's great.
(21:43):
You know, on the scientific and genetic front, do we
know anything about proficiency and certain activities sports music through
through genetics? Almost all of these personality traits and talent
based things are definitely have genetic foundations, but they are
probably due to so many genetic markers that are so
complex that you won't be able to measure them, if ever,
(22:06):
for a long long time. So that's one of the
areas I think we have to be careful. There are
kind of bottom feeder companies that are already out there
saying we can predict whether your child is going to
be a sprinter, we can predict whether your child is
going to be a musician, and we should be cautious
about that. And can you like you can like, uh,
you could like spin up one of those babies. Yeah,
you know, I mean I'm totally serious. So I have
(22:28):
two boys and my third as a girl, and her
doctor was like, you know, prepared for a boy. You know,
I've definitely heard people talk about that you can like
spin what you wanted, spin it up in like a
lab or something, right, you can if there are reproductive
technologies to pick a boy or a girl. Yeah, yeah,
we didn't do it because I feel like you if
(22:49):
you end up and then the person has like some
special difficulties in life, you're like, did I create those
difficulties for that person? We're gonna face that, and Janice
is going to play a role in that as we
anticipate all these markers and then you can pick embryos
that particularly carry the markers that you want. But again,
we're just going to have to admit that the complexity
of some of these traits intelligence, personality, musical ability, athletic ability, health,
(23:14):
health risks are mostly multi factorial, and they're very heavily
dependent on the context you live and the parenting you get.
So I would say being a good parent is way
more important than your genes and most of them. And
could you imagine like you spin up like a Serena
Williams and then the person is like not good at tennis?
Like how crazy would that be? For the you know,
like I would be imagined that would be insane. You know, Yeah,
(23:37):
they're gonna be disappointments. Yeah, they're right. I mean like
it's got to happen. Yeah, it probably will. It probably will.
Thank you for validating that. I think everybody in the room,
I felt like, gave me a look when I said
you could spin up the thing. But I've I've seriously
been told that, and I gave you that look because
I'm like, it's it sounds horrible, and I'm sure it's
(23:58):
technically possible. I think there's some areas of the world
with different ethical valides where it's happening. So it's going
to be a new challenge unfortunately. Well, and we're on
the cusp of being able to edit genes, and we
get there and you've got these embryos in front of you.
You can go in and edit which ones you want
to do exactly right. How does it not go sideways
(24:19):
and become like eugenics or something? How does it not
go that direction? Yeah, great question, No easy answers, man.
I think we just got to keep ourselves tethered to
the truth even as we think these expansive ideas and
enjoy this new expansive space. There's a lot of marketing
going on, there's a lot of corporations pushing this, but
there's also some correctives. Even our government, which is not
(24:42):
usually seen as sort of cutting edge, has initiated this
project called All of Us, which is going to enroll
a million Americans, very diverse backgrounds, including people who do
not have a lot of money, and they're going to
offer them information about themselves, including genetic information about themselves.
So there's some correctives place I think that are pretty
exciting that will balance the marketing efforts to go forward
(25:06):
as well, and in terms of how we keep it
to the positive route when the GPS as opposed to
the like Gattica in the eugenics type route, I think
staying involved and invested in that conversation is a part
of it. There's this balance that I feel about determinism
versus probability, versus freedom, and and it's not necessarily even
(25:27):
versus it's it's a inclusion of all those things. And
so Pete, the absence of some story for you was
liberating and you could forward your own path and set
your own GPS. You also may discover that you're part
of communities you didn't even know yet, and hopefully that's
enhancing for you and and not threatening. And I think
you know, for the wider field of genomics and personal genomics,
(25:50):
we want that balance. We want to belong more than
ever to a group, to a tribe. We also don't
need to feel bound and determined by what the was.
Probably results tell us that we can still set our
own course. I want to thank both of you for
highlighting what's possible and not necessarily deterministic out of this.
(26:13):
I'd like to thank Pete Wins for being here. Has
been a real pleasure having you on SPIT. And Dr
Robert Green, thank you very much for all your CONSUCT
appreciate it was great. So a few weeks ago I
sat in this room with Pete Wentz of entrepreneurial rock
star fame, and he hadn't yet done his genetic test.
(26:33):
Uh in the weeks since he did in fact SPIT
and we got on the phone with him to talk
about what his results were, what surprised him, what contradicted
his experience or expectations, and what he took away from
the whole thing. Take a list. I want to first say,
welcome back to the show, Welcome back to Spit. When
(26:55):
last our heroes met, you were about to do what
show title is, You were about to spit to be
able to get your test results. Can you talk to
me first about taking the test? What was the process?
Were you able to generate the required saliva? Did you
drop the vial? Like? Tell me about that part. Oh? Yeah,
(27:16):
it's just it's a lot more spirit thinks that people
think or would realized. But it's pretty simple. Kid is
very self explanatory. So it's just pretty easy to do.
I think it's one of those ones that's very hard
to screw up. Good well, congratulations on passing stage one.
And when you when you first logged in and started
seeing results, what's the first thing you saw. I think
(27:37):
the first thing I saw was under like ancestry. Yeah. Yeah,
I mean it's just like kind of like, I'm pretty
mixed bag. You know, there was a lot more mixed
than I expected. I guess I don't know. You had
spoken when when last we met. You talked about not
being part of a tribe and that was part of
the way you grew up and there was some strengthen that.
Did you find out that you're a part of any
(28:00):
tribes or communities that you didn't know about what that
you suspected, but we're confirmed. That's really like with any
Portuguese Jews. Were there any Portuguese Jews? I don't think so.
I think that the interesting thing that and this is
probably the nature of the world history, is that probably
due to the fact that like so many people were
in for migration or just my you know, like whatever.
(28:21):
It's like I think when you find the European side
of you, you're like, oh, yeah, that's like my you know,
old country or whatever. But I had a lot of
moms side people from the Caribbean and from Jamaica, and
made me realize that there's finding out a ton of
people that are like from Jamaica, you know, like people
are coming there from other places, or there's a lot
of the like Nigerian and Iberian and East African and
(28:43):
stuff and summer heart that like really piece it together,
you know what I mean, Because it's like, yeah, I
don't know, like when was the last time like someone
from my family was like Nigeria, you know what I mean,
Like I mean, I wish it was probably sooner than
it actually was. No, No, that makes sense when you
described Jamaica. You've reminded us that it's like a port. Yeah. Um,
you know, it served as a port, and so in
some ways it sounds like it was a genetic port
(29:04):
as well. From a genetic perspective, it's hard to be
from Jamaica, and that's kind of a way station for
for genes from from other parts of the world. Yeah,
like we didn't come back like Jamaican, you know what
I mean? Right right, and on the characteristic side or
on any of the traits stuff. I mean. I I
remember in my results finding out it said that I
(29:27):
was going to be less likely to be able to
match a musical pitch, which I was like, first of all,
you're wrong. I have perfect tonal recall. I'm amazing. But
I'm curious for you to anything stand out from your
traits kind of results that you're you're willing to share.
It's interesting because you think you're saying it's some stuff
that I'm like, some stuff from like I don't know.
(29:49):
I got one back and said less likely to consume caffeine,
and I was like, oh my god, I drink so
much coffee. I was like, I don't know where, Like
it's very interesting of all that you look through in
your results, what's stood out the most, what was the
most interesting, whether it was surprising or not, whether it
confirmed in expectation or not. Totally you're like, oh, that's
that's notable. Tell me about that, yeah, totally. Um. The
(30:12):
thing that I was expected was like, you know, like
I've always felt a little bit like a big mix
or mud or something, and I really there was like
a lot of like maybe this is for everybody. So
I haven't seen anybody else's test results obviously, um, so
I don't know, but there was a lot of like
fo this four you know, four percent gonna you know,
or something like that. Like I was like, oh my god,
(30:34):
like it's interesting, and I got a feeling and maybe
it's not like going to be like obviously like subsident
and African for people, but like that we're all pretty
much a big mix. I mean no, maybe not we're all,
but a lot of us are probably like kind of
a mix, you know, because people have you know, the world.
We live in a very global place. And like there
was something peaceful about that where I was like, you know,
your neighbor probably have a mix in his is making
(30:55):
more like European, but I'm sure it's a big blend
as well, you know. And there was something that like
was reassuring to me about that a little bit, you know,
like there's something that like felt like maybe that's like
one of the like solutions for our world is that, like,
I mean, we're all really different, so we're all really
different than each other, but in a weird way that
makes it is all kind of similar because we're all
so different, you know, and that like I don't know
(31:16):
that I need to find somebody who had, like I
don't know how I'm gonna find somebody who has the
exact mix a similar mix of me, even like my
siblings or something, so like maybe you don't need somebody
who like looks like you, it feels like you maybe
you find people who would just like increase your happiness
or like makes the world feel like it's a little
bit smaller for you, and that's good enough. I don't know,
(31:37):
it's kind of cheesy, but like I actually that I
felt that. Yeah, I actually kind of did feel it.
Thank you for sharing that. I I feel it through
the phone line from you. The idea that what we
have in commonon is our difference is a beautiful concept
and one that science may help us find more common
than not. So thank you again, see good luck with
(32:00):
whatever is next in your life. I appreciate the extra time. Right,
have a great one, man, I want to dig in
more on today's topics and guests. Check our show notes
and if you enjoyed the episode, share it with a friend,
all your friends, and be sure to leave a review.
If you want to hear more surprising stories about how
we're all related, search and follow Spit on I Heart
(32:21):
Radio or subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. Spit is
an I Heart Radio podcast with twenty three and me.
I'm Baritone Day Thurston. You can find out more about
me at baritone day dot com or sign up from
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