August 5, 2025 • 28 mins
More from Jemele’s conversation with Jason Wilson, author, educator and founder of the Cave of Adullam Transformational Training Academy, which uses martial arts to teach at-risk boys emotional discipline, leadership and character development. Jemele gets candid with Jason about her fractured relationship with her father as he shares his own experiences about forgiving his father as an adult. Jason also offers his advice for mending relationships when there is a lack of accountability.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to another bonus episode as Politics Now. Recently, I
had the pleasure of recording an episode with Jason Wilson,
a best selling author, educator, and the founder of a
transformational training academy that's based in my hometown to Detroit,
cabb The Cave of Abdullam. At the Cave, Jason uses
martial arts to teach young at risk boys emotional discipline
and leadership, with a very heavy focus on character development.
(00:31):
Jason has been internationally recognized for his work.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Which includes being the subject of a ESPN thirty for
thirty documentary.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Now, in a time where a lot has been said
and written about the mental health crisis facing young boys
and men, especially Black boys and men, Jason's voice really
stands out. He speaks often about men freeing themselves from
emotional incarceration, since society has conditioned men to believe their
emotions should be suppressed and avoided.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Now, as so often.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Happens when in conversation with Jason, it turns into a
therapy session.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I went into our interview with the express intention of
not doing that, but as a woman, there are certain
themes that Jason addresses that have gotten me to take
a more introspective look at my complicated relationship with my father.
So as we got to talking, my intention of this
episode not turning into a personal therapy session.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well it went right out the window. Take a listen.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
So it was that chapter, the Sun chapter, that all
of it, every chapter you have resumenated with me in
different ways, either when it came to allowing me to
understand my husband better or thinking about my own emotional incarcerations.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
That I have.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
But the Son chapter really resonated with me because I
was particularly interested in how you repaired or ought to repair.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
The relationship with your father.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
You know, I noticed in a lot of interviews that
you do, they wind up being therapy sessions for the
people you and I.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
This like, I promise I'm not doing that.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I need to, I need other people to get this information,
especially men. But I have to say it did make
me think about my own very complicated relationship with my father,
who I have not spoken to in probably almost three
years for a variety of reasons, and for the first
(02:34):
time in that time, it actually made me want to
pick up the phone and call him. And something that
you said in the book about how sometimes.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
The treatment women received can make us hearten our hearts.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
And my heart feels very hard toward him now, and
I don't know how to make it unheard, But reading
your book it certainly gave me some things to at
least think about. So I wanted to ask you a
little bit more or about what was it that allowed
you to maybe see your father in a way you
(03:07):
hadn't seen him before as he was dealing with I
believe it was prostate cancer.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Correct, prostate cancer and parkinson and parkinson.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So yes, that is correct, And so what was it
about it that repairing that that unlocked it for you
even though your father had not yet been in the
place yet where you could understand why he parented you
the way that he did.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
You know, to be honest, I have to say it
was it's my relationship with your shoe or eye, because
my wife told me when I cursed him out for
him accusing me of stealing money from and hung up
on him, she was like, you know, Jay, you know,
you know we often say what would Jesus do? Like
literally in this moment, what would he do? And I
(03:52):
know forgiveness is not necessarily for the one who offends you,
it is for us. You know, and in my relationship
with y'all the most high. So I had to forgive him.
And when my stepmother made that call and say, hey,
your father's not doing well, you know, it wasn't that
much of an offense where I would let him die
(04:13):
without seeing And even though I didn't, I knew he
wasn't dying. But you tell me that it's one of
the strongest men I evernue in my life isn't doing well.
I had to go visit him, and so I still was,
you know, guarded, but when I saw my father barely
could move, it broke me. You know. I sat next
(04:35):
to his bed and cried, and from that moment I
vowed to be in his life. I forgave him, and
I'm so glad I did, because I learned that he
was just a product of how he was raised. He
was conditioned to be hard, just like my generation, except worse.
They didn't have opportunities to express how they feel like
(04:57):
we do today. And so I chose not to give
the devil two stones, you know, like you're not going
to take me and him out. You know, I'm going
to make sure I do my part to make sure
I reconcile, and I wanted to get some information from him,
like you know, why are you this way? What happened?
And I learned that he, too, like me, was called
(05:18):
to be a servant of the most High, but he
ran for me and what was deep after the many
visits to the nursing home where it was, I asked
him to make you know, if I had to make
him a promise, what would it be? And out of
anything he could have asked me said, I want I
want you to preach the gospel and I want to
hear you. And he was able to do both. And
(05:39):
so I always encourage, you know, children of parents who
they've been wounded by, like don't let them die without
you trying your best to reconcile. It like that weight.
You don't want to be the child at the funeral
that jumps at the casket, you know. And so I
don't know what you and your father went through. Oh
hold on, jay, I think, okay, good. I don't know
(06:02):
what you and your father went through. And you know,
sometimes it seems like it's you can't go back, but
the first step is always forgiveness, Like, hey, you know,
I forgive you. I got to let it go for myself.
Once I was able to let go, I was finally
able to learn his side of the story. And then
(06:24):
I found that I was interpreting a lot like it
wasn't It wasn't a lot of truths there because I
was young, and if I didn't hear it from the
horse's mouth, you know, I was just interpreting. But when
I finally heard where he got his mindset from, why
he was so angry, it seemed like perpetually my father
had a chip on his shoulder, we were able to
(06:45):
finally laugh. And then Jay at seventeen, no, at thirty
seven years old, was the first time I heard him
say he loved me. And that all happened because I
gave him an olive branch and he took it and
we were able to reconcile.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I would say, I thought I'd reached that point with
my father many many years ago, like in my early twenties.
You know, we were estranged a little bit when I
was coming up. He was sort of in and out.
He was dealing with a drug problem, which I understood, honestly,
Like that part I was holding no resentment for because
my mother also dealt with a substance abuse problem, and
they dealt with her at different times. My father they
(07:22):
were never married, and my father he got cleaned before
she did, and so when he was able to be
in my life, it was fine, but it was still
the absence of time just does something. It's like we
couldn't quite connect in the way we probably should have
because of that time laps.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
But that was okay. I was. I was more than
open to it.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
And I guess the problem that I struggled with after
the forgiveness because I again fine, wrote him a letter,
got it all out.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
We were good. It was okay. What I struggled with
was what I felt like was.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
A lack of effort on his part as I got
much older and was grown. It's like, why am I
always the one reaching out? Why is it that I'm
the one flying you out to see me?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Why?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Like continually, continually, continually, And it just felt like it
was imbalanced, which was again something I accepted for a
long time. And then when my book came out, My
memoir came out in October of twenty twenty two, he
went to Facebook to say how he felt about the book,
(08:33):
the book in which I don't think I aired him.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Out at all, Like, in fact, I felt like I.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Was more than gracious, but his issue, as we had one,
he took the issue to Facebook, which was.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Not going to be That was something that was not warranted.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I didn't think if he had a problem with the book,
he has my number, he could have caught me and
told me. But his problem with the book, as we
got into a discussion, wasn't what I said about him,
because it was all factual. And again I didn't disparage
my father. He said his problem was that he wasn't
in it enough and.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
So really.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
I know I didn't either, and so that did not
sit right with me. And there's you know, been some
other things, uh, and it just didn't And finally I.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Just decided, like what am I doing this for? Like why.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
This is not a relationship that I feel like I
need to keep carrying. And I just said, like I'm
kind of done, and I don't you know, I have
to say I haven't really felt bad about it, but
I also realize and wonder, like am I just masking
(09:51):
something is unhealthy for me to feel this way, especially
towards your own father. And so your book made me
sort of think about that like, okay, if something did
happen and oh, by the way, something did happen to
my father a few years ago.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
He had to undergo a triple bypass.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Like literally, and I was there, like I was there,
and so, you know, and at my wedding, like my
father walked me down the aisle. He barely could because
he was suffering from some heart issues that I was
unaware of, but he was still able to do it
and it was still a moment. But there is a
selfishness in my father that it's hard for me to
(10:27):
deal with. And I don't know where that comes from,
and I it's just something that I'm struggling with in
terms of trying to re establish the connection.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Have you considered having like a therapy session with you
him and a therapist.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I have not.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
And the crazy thing is is that my father is
actually a licensed therapist.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Now you really messing me up. But hey, like I
often say, therapists need therapists as well, you know. And
so your father has trauma, sometimes it's worse because he
knows what he needs to do to resolve it, and
you know, like sometimes the people who know it all
typically don't do Like my wife is a registered nurse,
but she have us suffering around the house. You don't
(11:11):
need to go do this, and we can make this
work because she knows what the worst case scenario looks like.
And so I remember one time we both had food poison.
She having us both in the house vomiting, like it's
going to pass. I'm like, look, you stay here, I'm
going to the er. And you know who was right
next to me. She was in the er getting IV.
(11:31):
You know, so sometimes you know the therapist needs a therapist,
and you know, I would truly encourage you to do that.
Like if my father was still living, I definitely would
take that route because it's so much that I didn't
get because I wasn't the man that I am now back,
what is it almost twenty five years ago? Wow? Two
thousand and seven, I believe. Yeah, he passed in two
(11:53):
thousand and seven, but prior to that, in early two thousands,
I missed a lot and like it's so many questions
it didn't get answered, and I would hate for him
to leave here. And you didn't reconcile that, like you
think you may feel a certain way now when he's
gone and there's no chance to reconcile or get the
answers to the questions and to get clarity on the
(12:15):
things you never understood are gone. It really makes life
a lot heavier, you know. So I would just encourage
you to, especially since he's a therapist, he understands the
importance of releasing or not repressing what's going on inside,
and say, hey, Dad, I would like to know your journey.
It may even help you just to hear his story,
(12:36):
like how was it like growing up with grandma and granddad?
You know, what did you what was your most traumatic
moments in your life? And then you can start seeing like, man, okay,
I see why this shape you because real talk a
lot of times, you know, even in the cave of Adullum.
You know, some people would get mad when I say
that I've never seen a father that didn't want to
(12:58):
be with his son. And what I mean by that
is when I talk to a father who's absent and
not being present in their child's life, it's always. It's
never that they don't love their son and want to
be with them. Is how they view themselves as their
son's father. Meaning a failure I can't provide, I can't
(13:18):
pay for certain things, so they think the only option
is to not be around. But that makes things worse.
But because we've been conditioned to believe we're only providers,
this is all we can do. If you don't do this,
you're nothing. Providing for a child is more than providing money.
And so I just encourage you, my sister, to you know,
take a deep dive with them. You know, again, that's
(13:41):
your father. He has a story, he has a cause
and effect. And I'm almost certain how old is your dad?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
And this what so my dad?
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I believe because his birthday is actually coming up soon,
he's going to be seventy seven.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Oh yeah, he doesn't mean even though he's a therapist,
therapy now versus back then is big difference.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
And I should add to that that his training is
in therapy with people suffering through substance abuse.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
It's similar, but it's not like psychotherapy.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Right yeah, yeah, that's what.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Take that journey. Take that journey. I could see it
in your eyes, and especially as a daughter, that's the
first level of your life. You don't you don't want
to live with that not being reconciled. And then the
time is crucial as well. The scriptures say don't let
the sun go down on your wrath. You know, literally,
in one day with my wife and I, if we
(14:40):
have a disagreement or weird odds, one of us has
to cross the line. That's our saying. In a home
who's going to cross the line, And so we can't
go to bed angry or upset. Even last night I
had said something that, you know, hurt her feelings. You know,
I went to use the restroom. I saw she was
up reading. It's three in the morning. I got to
(15:00):
be up in five. I prioritize talking with her and
letting her know, hey, I'm sorry, that's not how I
meant it, and explaining that because I've learned like life
is too short to allow an interpretation to ruin a relationship,
and so I want to know exactly why you are
the way you are, so at least I can process,
(15:21):
you know, how to even you know, have this relationship
with you.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, I mean one thing about my father. For my memoir,
I did this for both of my parents. I interviewed
my mom extensively. I interviewed my father as well and
asked him about and I encourage people to do this,
especially when my memoir came out. Is that find out
about who your parents were before you ever came along.
That would be very informative. And so he told me
(15:46):
a lot of things that it was like, Okay, I
get it, but and this is actually a question. I'm
gonna save you for the other side of the break.
And I promised this wasn't going to turn into.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
A look what you did.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Okay, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, but before I ask you this question, we just
going to take a very quick break and we'll be
right back with my therapy a session apparently. Okay, we
just stopped down real quick at thirty hours. That's a
good all right, here you go, three two one, okay.
So here's the question that I think people often struggle
(16:25):
with when it comes to not necessarily forgiveness, because you
can forgive somebody and not want to mess with him.
You know what I'm saying, as how do you bridge
that relationship when there has not been accountability mm hm.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
When accountability expand on that? What do you?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Okay? So this is what I mean.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
So to your point about finding out about your parents' journey,
I did do that with him, and it was very
informative finding out like why drugs were attractive. I didn't
even know he lived out of I knew he lived
out of the state when I was conceived him of
my mom and moved to the Bay Area, but I
didn't know he.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Went out of the state. I believe after that, like,
I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
So he was just telling me about sort of his
path and course in life, and it was very interesting.
The hard part for me is that even with the
episode that I said about him going to Facebook talking
about what he didn't necessarily like didn't say anything I.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Said was untrue, but just what he didn't like is
he didn't say anything wrong with that.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I was like, let me tell you why that was
problematic that you did that. But it is kind of
a bit of a pattern, if you will, where he
will do these things and not understand why it is
an issue. And so it's hard for me to get
to the point of understanding your point of view or
(17:51):
maybe and even when it comes to talking about why
he wasn't there in my life, which I know why
it like, yes, drugs, he had a heroin addiction. That's
a serious issue, and so like I totally and completely
get that part of it. But even once he was
in my life. He was in my life in a
way that was just kind of surface level. And as
(18:17):
I told you, the part about me that was constantly
kind of heartbreaking was that I always felt like I
was the one making the effort, Like why am I
always the one making the effort to see you, to
do this or whatever? Like why do I have to
spend money for you to come see me? And so
that's the part that I'm struggling with, you know, or
(18:39):
even you know growing up knowing like my mother and
I we faced some very volatile situations because of her
substance abuse, but going to him was never an option
at all, like from a never offered anything. And so
I'm just trying to understand, like what, why were you
(19:00):
okay with that?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Did you ask him this?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
So I didn't ask him that last question.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I realized that when it came out out of my mouth,
is that I never asked him. How there's this? It's
always an incident, right, And I write about this in
my book. So my mother I had a journal growing up,
and I wrote in the journal some very I was
very angry about my mother's drug use, which was unfolding
in front of my eyes. And what that was happening.
(19:28):
So I wrote some very unflattering things about her in
my journal. I've kept the journal since I was young.
My mother found the journal. She read the journal because
you know, black parents don't believe in privacy. I don't know,
so she read the journal and the frank is what
I could saying, is my mama, who my ass? And
she felt disrespected and she put all my stuff in
(19:49):
the garbage bag and she dropped me off at my
father's job. He worked off the cast corridor at the
Harbor Light Center. It used to be the Harbor Light
Center's not there anymore. It was a drug reability place.
My father was completely taken off guard about what had happened,
so he took me to my grandparents' house. He's called
my mother like when you coming to get her, blah
blah blah blah blah and all of that. But at
(20:14):
no point, not just with that incident, but when me
and my mom got evicted and others like. He was
never in a position to really do anything, and he
never like the idea of me ever at any point
living with him for a week could never have happened.
And I can respect that he had financial limitations. But
(20:37):
I got to be honest, I don't really get the
sys that he even wanted something like that or even
cared about something like that. And so I guess that
is and especially later in life when he faced financial difficulties,
he could come to me.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
And I have been there for him when he has.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Faced some of these difficulties, and just the lopsidedness of
that always struck me.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
It's like I could never depend on this man for.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Anything, but yet he knows anytime he needs to, he
could probably call me and ask me for money and
has so, and I've given it to him. And it's
just like I don't get this at all. It's like
it just it just felt very lopsided, like I'm the
one reaching out, I'm the one doing this, like I
don't get it.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Well, First to the accountability piece. You know, parents of
our generation, well their generation, they were taught but speak
when speak when spoken to. And so my mother, I
remember when I started caring for her when I got married.
She would get upset at me when I would hold
her responsible for some of her behavior that was unacceptable.
She would always say, but boy, I'm your mama. I said, well, no, right,
(21:43):
now you're dam Marie Crumb and you're wrong. I said,
let's talk through this, and so I would hold my
stance then and make her talk like, hey, you're doing
this wrong. You shouldn't treat this person that way. I
don't like the way you did this. And I always
was respectful because I have to honor her. But at
the same time, you know, love without truth is compromised,
so I had to let her know in a way
(22:05):
that was respectable. And so but their generation, they weren't
taught to communicate with their children in a way like
their human beings. It was simply almost like we were
not pest. But you know how you tell your dog
to do this and do this and do that, and
it's no talk back. But now parents are understanding like, no,
(22:25):
I need you to communicate. I need you to express
what you're feeling. You know, you would tell a boy
to shut up or don't cry, and then you wonder
why when he's in eighth grade he doesn't talk to
you about his problems. And so that generation of parenting,
which I often call fear based parenting, it didn't leave
room for us as children to really have a relationship
(22:47):
with them. So they don't really know what that's like.
I believe our generation is the first like parenting generation
where we could actually have that type of relationship with
our children, where we would treat them like human beings
and once they get to that stage where they can
actually comprehend what we're saying. You know, I talked to
my son like he was an adult. When I think
(23:09):
Jason was like ten years old, I started communicating with him.
I didn't really like the whole hard hand type of
discipline that many fathers have. I'm like, no, I would.
I should be able to communicate with my son and
your father at his age. My father died at seventy seven.
He didn't have that capacity. My sister has some of
(23:31):
the same issues you have with your father that she
has with our dad because men back then didn't tap
into the nurturing side. They didn't tap into that being
very transparent and openly lovingly. I mean not a lot
of men. Some fathers did, and maybe your father was
just wired that way. And so that's why I was saying,
(23:52):
did you ask him like, why does it seem like
I have to always pursue you? Why don't you do this?
You gotta remember, but no one's in mind read. That's
one of the most valuable lessons I learned from my
psychotherapy sessions is, especially in marriage, say what you need
instead of just waiting for someone to respond and then
now you holding bitterness or you're angry. It's like, no,
(24:15):
I want you to know. This is what I feel,
and this is what I need from this relationship, and
I would like to know why aren't you given this
to me? And it's just something I'm doing that's preventing me.
And so I would say, give your father the opportunity
to right is wrong. And you know, I was in
a situation where I didn't have an opportunity to right
(24:35):
my wrong and it hurts because I'm not a mind reader.
I didn't know my actions offended and hurt my son
the way they did. I just would I'm real big
on correction. Give me an opportunity to right my wrong
and maybe that's what your father needs. And then, you know,
and having a person in the middle, like a psychotherapist,
(24:57):
preferably someone who can help him dig a little deeper,
could help both of you flush this out in a
way where there's no condemnation, but only compassion and communication.
So yeah, I mean getting to ask would be willing
to have a session with you and say, hey, Dad,
I don't want to let any more time lapse between us.
(25:17):
I want to see you and would you be open
for me and you just to talk in front of
a counselor or therapist and see what he says.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
That is a great suggestion and I will give that
some serious thought. And as I said, that is why
that chapter in your book really resonated with me, because
it made for the first time in three years, think about, well,
maybe this probably isn't the healthiest way to get with
It's I been like, I'm just never talking to you again.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Yeah, if it feels safe. But you know, but how
we you know, I guess this is my background in
the combative arts. We're trained to see the outcome before
it happens, because every time you punch people don't realize
every time you punch it someone, you're open and get hit.
And so I'm like, okay, is this the best decision
(26:07):
long run for me? And I'm losing so much time.
And I can't say this guy's name because you know him.
He's really popular. But he and I had talked when
I was in La, and he felt really bad about
denying his father an opportunity to see him. And before
when he was considering going to see his dad, his
(26:29):
father died and I told him it was We had
a really beautiful conversation, and I said, you know, you
would have been there if he wouldn't have done this.
That was liberating to him because he was holding onto
misplaced gill. He was just only responding to the way
his father had treated him or not treated him. So
(26:50):
that's what you're doing. But now that you know that,
who's going to cross the line. There's the principal again.
I refuse to allow the enemy to win. I want
to win. I don't want to lose. I got so much.
If I'm telling you, if I could go back, I
would record my father the same way I did my mother.
Every conversation we would have, I would record and just
(27:11):
hear her heart and those things I play to this day.
And so don't deny him. But most important, he says,
don't deny yourself of the love you long to receive
from your father. This is that love you know would
and never give you. I can't give you, your friends
can't give you. That can only come from your father,
and so I'm saying, you know, walk through that door
(27:32):
and at least exhaust all of your options. So if
it doesn't happen, you can say, well, I gave it
my all.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
OUI chew on that all right, We're done with me.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Politics is the production of iHeart Podcast and the Unbothered Network.
I'm your host Jamel Hill. Executive producer is Taylor Chakogine.
Lucas Hyman is head of audio and executive producer. Original
music Politics provided by Coyle vist from wiz FX
Welcome to another bonus episode as Politics Now. Recently, I
had the pleasure of recording an episode with Jason Wilson,
a best selling author, educator, and the founder of a
transformational training academy that's based in my hometown to Detroit,
cabb The Cave of Abdullam. At the Cave, Jason uses
martial arts to teach young at risk boys emotional discipline
and leadership, with a very heavy focus on character development.
(00:31):
Jason has been internationally recognized for his work.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Which includes being the subject of a ESPN thirty for
thirty documentary.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Now, in a time where a lot has been said
and written about the mental health crisis facing young boys
and men, especially Black boys and men, Jason's voice really
stands out. He speaks often about men freeing themselves from
emotional incarceration, since society has conditioned men to believe their
emotions should be suppressed and avoided.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Now, as so often.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Happens when in conversation with Jason, it turns into a
therapy session.
Speaker 3 (01:06):
Now.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
I went into our interview with the express intention of
not doing that, but as a woman, there are certain
themes that Jason addresses that have gotten me to take
a more introspective look at my complicated relationship with my father.
So as we got to talking, my intention of this
episode not turning into a personal therapy session.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Well it went right out the window. Take a listen.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
So it was that chapter, the Sun chapter, that all
of it, every chapter you have resumenated with me in
different ways, either when it came to allowing me to
understand my husband better or thinking about my own emotional incarcerations.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
That I have.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
But the Son chapter really resonated with me because I
was particularly interested in how you repaired or ought to repair.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
The relationship with your father.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
You know, I noticed in a lot of interviews that
you do, they wind up being therapy sessions for the
people you and I.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
This like, I promise I'm not doing that.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I need to, I need other people to get this information,
especially men. But I have to say it did make
me think about my own very complicated relationship with my father,
who I have not spoken to in probably almost three
years for a variety of reasons, and for the first
(02:34):
time in that time, it actually made me want to
pick up the phone and call him. And something that
you said in the book about how sometimes.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
The treatment women received can make us hearten our hearts.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
And my heart feels very hard toward him now, and
I don't know how to make it unheard, But reading
your book it certainly gave me some things to at
least think about. So I wanted to ask you a
little bit more or about what was it that allowed
you to maybe see your father in a way you
(03:07):
hadn't seen him before as he was dealing with I
believe it was prostate cancer.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Correct, prostate cancer and parkinson and parkinson.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
So yes, that is correct, And so what was it
about it that repairing that that unlocked it for you
even though your father had not yet been in the
place yet where you could understand why he parented you
the way that he did.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
You know, to be honest, I have to say it
was it's my relationship with your shoe or eye, because
my wife told me when I cursed him out for
him accusing me of stealing money from and hung up
on him, she was like, you know, Jay, you know,
you know we often say what would Jesus do? Like
literally in this moment, what would he do? And I
(03:52):
know forgiveness is not necessarily for the one who offends you,
it is for us. You know, and in my relationship
with y'all the most high. So I had to forgive him.
And when my stepmother made that call and say, hey,
your father's not doing well, you know, it wasn't that
much of an offense where I would let him die
(04:13):
without seeing And even though I didn't, I knew he
wasn't dying. But you tell me that it's one of
the strongest men I evernue in my life isn't doing well.
I had to go visit him, and so I still was,
you know, guarded, but when I saw my father barely
could move, it broke me. You know. I sat next
(04:35):
to his bed and cried, and from that moment I
vowed to be in his life. I forgave him, and
I'm so glad I did, because I learned that he
was just a product of how he was raised. He
was conditioned to be hard, just like my generation, except worse.
They didn't have opportunities to express how they feel like
(04:57):
we do today. And so I chose not to give
the devil two stones, you know, like you're not going
to take me and him out. You know, I'm going
to make sure I do my part to make sure
I reconcile, and I wanted to get some information from him,
like you know, why are you this way? What happened?
And I learned that he, too, like me, was called
(05:18):
to be a servant of the most High, but he
ran for me and what was deep after the many
visits to the nursing home where it was, I asked
him to make you know, if I had to make
him a promise, what would it be? And out of
anything he could have asked me said, I want I
want you to preach the gospel and I want to
hear you. And he was able to do both. And
(05:39):
so I always encourage, you know, children of parents who
they've been wounded by, like don't let them die without
you trying your best to reconcile. It like that weight.
You don't want to be the child at the funeral
that jumps at the casket, you know. And so I
don't know what you and your father went through. Oh
hold on, jay, I think, okay, good. I don't know
(06:02):
what you and your father went through. And you know,
sometimes it seems like it's you can't go back, but
the first step is always forgiveness, Like, hey, you know,
I forgive you. I got to let it go for myself.
Once I was able to let go, I was finally
able to learn his side of the story. And then
(06:24):
I found that I was interpreting a lot like it
wasn't It wasn't a lot of truths there because I
was young, and if I didn't hear it from the
horse's mouth, you know, I was just interpreting. But when
I finally heard where he got his mindset from, why
he was so angry, it seemed like perpetually my father
had a chip on his shoulder, we were able to
(06:45):
finally laugh. And then Jay at seventeen, no, at thirty
seven years old, was the first time I heard him
say he loved me. And that all happened because I
gave him an olive branch and he took it and
we were able to reconcile.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
I would say, I thought I'd reached that point with
my father many many years ago, like in my early twenties.
You know, we were estranged a little bit when I
was coming up. He was sort of in and out.
He was dealing with a drug problem, which I understood, honestly,
Like that part I was holding no resentment for because
my mother also dealt with a substance abuse problem, and
they dealt with her at different times. My father they
(07:22):
were never married, and my father he got cleaned before
she did, and so when he was able to be
in my life, it was fine, but it was still
the absence of time just does something. It's like we
couldn't quite connect in the way we probably should have
because of that time laps.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
But that was okay. I was. I was more than
open to it.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
And I guess the problem that I struggled with after
the forgiveness because I again fine, wrote him a letter,
got it all out.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
We were good. It was okay. What I struggled with
was what I felt like was.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
A lack of effort on his part as I got
much older and was grown. It's like, why am I
always the one reaching out? Why is it that I'm
the one flying you out to see me?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
Why?
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Like continually, continually, continually, And it just felt like it
was imbalanced, which was again something I accepted for a
long time. And then when my book came out, My
memoir came out in October of twenty twenty two, he
went to Facebook to say how he felt about the book,
(08:33):
the book in which I don't think I aired him.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Out at all, Like, in fact, I felt like I.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Was more than gracious, but his issue, as we had one,
he took the issue to Facebook, which was.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Not going to be That was something that was not warranted.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
I didn't think if he had a problem with the book,
he has my number, he could have caught me and
told me. But his problem with the book, as we
got into a discussion, wasn't what I said about him,
because it was all factual. And again I didn't disparage
my father. He said his problem was that he wasn't
in it enough and.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
So really.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
I know I didn't either, and so that did not
sit right with me. And there's you know, been some
other things, uh, and it just didn't And finally I.
Speaker 2 (09:25):
Just decided, like what am I doing this for? Like why.
Speaker 1 (09:30):
This is not a relationship that I feel like I
need to keep carrying. And I just said, like I'm
kind of done, and I don't you know, I have
to say I haven't really felt bad about it, but
I also realize and wonder, like am I just masking
(09:51):
something is unhealthy for me to feel this way, especially
towards your own father. And so your book made me
sort of think about that like, okay, if something did
happen and oh, by the way, something did happen to
my father a few years ago.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
He had to undergo a triple bypass.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Like literally, and I was there, like I was there,
and so, you know, and at my wedding, like my
father walked me down the aisle. He barely could because
he was suffering from some heart issues that I was
unaware of, but he was still able to do it
and it was still a moment. But there is a
selfishness in my father that it's hard for me to
(10:27):
deal with. And I don't know where that comes from,
and I it's just something that I'm struggling with in
terms of trying to re establish the connection.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Have you considered having like a therapy session with you
him and a therapist.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
I have not.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
And the crazy thing is is that my father is
actually a licensed therapist.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Now you really messing me up. But hey, like I
often say, therapists need therapists as well, you know. And
so your father has trauma, sometimes it's worse because he
knows what he needs to do to resolve it, and
you know, like sometimes the people who know it all
typically don't do Like my wife is a registered nurse,
but she have us suffering around the house. You don't
(11:11):
need to go do this, and we can make this
work because she knows what the worst case scenario looks like.
And so I remember one time we both had food poison.
She having us both in the house vomiting, like it's
going to pass. I'm like, look, you stay here, I'm
going to the er. And you know who was right
next to me. She was in the er getting IV.
(11:31):
You know, so sometimes you know the therapist needs a therapist,
and you know, I would truly encourage you to do that.
Like if my father was still living, I definitely would
take that route because it's so much that I didn't
get because I wasn't the man that I am now back,
what is it almost twenty five years ago? Wow? Two
thousand and seven, I believe. Yeah, he passed in two
(11:53):
thousand and seven, but prior to that, in early two thousands,
I missed a lot and like it's so many questions
it didn't get answered, and I would hate for him
to leave here. And you didn't reconcile that, like you
think you may feel a certain way now when he's
gone and there's no chance to reconcile or get the
answers to the questions and to get clarity on the
(12:15):
things you never understood are gone. It really makes life
a lot heavier, you know. So I would just encourage
you to, especially since he's a therapist, he understands the
importance of releasing or not repressing what's going on inside,
and say, hey, Dad, I would like to know your journey.
It may even help you just to hear his story,
(12:36):
like how was it like growing up with grandma and granddad?
You know, what did you what was your most traumatic
moments in your life? And then you can start seeing like, man, okay,
I see why this shape you because real talk a
lot of times, you know, even in the cave of Adullum.
You know, some people would get mad when I say
that I've never seen a father that didn't want to
(12:58):
be with his son. And what I mean by that
is when I talk to a father who's absent and
not being present in their child's life, it's always. It's
never that they don't love their son and want to
be with them. Is how they view themselves as their
son's father. Meaning a failure I can't provide, I can't
(13:18):
pay for certain things, so they think the only option
is to not be around. But that makes things worse.
But because we've been conditioned to believe we're only providers,
this is all we can do. If you don't do this,
you're nothing. Providing for a child is more than providing money.
And so I just encourage you, my sister, to you know,
take a deep dive with them. You know, again, that's
(13:41):
your father. He has a story, he has a cause
and effect. And I'm almost certain how old is your dad?
Speaker 2 (13:47):
And this what so my dad?
Speaker 1 (13:49):
I believe because his birthday is actually coming up soon,
he's going to be seventy seven.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Oh yeah, he doesn't mean even though he's a therapist,
therapy now versus back then is big difference.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
And I should add to that that his training is
in therapy with people suffering through substance abuse.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
It's similar, but it's not like psychotherapy.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Right yeah, yeah, that's what.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
Take that journey. Take that journey. I could see it
in your eyes, and especially as a daughter, that's the
first level of your life. You don't you don't want
to live with that not being reconciled. And then the
time is crucial as well. The scriptures say don't let
the sun go down on your wrath. You know, literally,
in one day with my wife and I, if we
(14:40):
have a disagreement or weird odds, one of us has
to cross the line. That's our saying. In a home
who's going to cross the line, And so we can't
go to bed angry or upset. Even last night I
had said something that, you know, hurt her feelings. You know,
I went to use the restroom. I saw she was
up reading. It's three in the morning. I got to
(15:00):
be up in five. I prioritize talking with her and
letting her know, hey, I'm sorry, that's not how I
meant it, and explaining that because I've learned like life
is too short to allow an interpretation to ruin a relationship,
and so I want to know exactly why you are
the way you are, so at least I can process,
(15:21):
you know, how to even you know, have this relationship
with you.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Yeah, I mean one thing about my father. For my memoir,
I did this for both of my parents. I interviewed
my mom extensively. I interviewed my father as well and
asked him about and I encourage people to do this,
especially when my memoir came out. Is that find out
about who your parents were before you ever came along.
That would be very informative. And so he told me
(15:46):
a lot of things that it was like, Okay, I
get it, but and this is actually a question. I'm
gonna save you for the other side of the break.
And I promised this wasn't going to turn into.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
A look what you did.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Okay, it's so good.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Yeah, but before I ask you this question, we just
going to take a very quick break and we'll be
right back with my therapy a session apparently. Okay, we
just stopped down real quick at thirty hours. That's a
good all right, here you go, three two one, okay.
So here's the question that I think people often struggle
(16:25):
with when it comes to not necessarily forgiveness, because you
can forgive somebody and not want to mess with him.
You know what I'm saying, as how do you bridge
that relationship when there has not been accountability mm hm.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
When accountability expand on that? What do you?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Okay? So this is what I mean.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
So to your point about finding out about your parents' journey,
I did do that with him, and it was very
informative finding out like why drugs were attractive. I didn't
even know he lived out of I knew he lived
out of the state when I was conceived him of
my mom and moved to the Bay Area, but I
didn't know he.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Went out of the state. I believe after that, like,
I had no idea.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
So he was just telling me about sort of his
path and course in life, and it was very interesting.
The hard part for me is that even with the
episode that I said about him going to Facebook talking
about what he didn't necessarily like didn't say anything I.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Said was untrue, but just what he didn't like is
he didn't say anything wrong with that.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
I was like, let me tell you why that was
problematic that you did that. But it is kind of
a bit of a pattern, if you will, where he
will do these things and not understand why it is
an issue. And so it's hard for me to get
to the point of understanding your point of view or
(17:51):
maybe and even when it comes to talking about why
he wasn't there in my life, which I know why
it like, yes, drugs, he had a heroin addiction. That's
a serious issue, and so like I totally and completely
get that part of it. But even once he was
in my life. He was in my life in a
way that was just kind of surface level. And as
(18:17):
I told you, the part about me that was constantly
kind of heartbreaking was that I always felt like I
was the one making the effort, Like why am I
always the one making the effort to see you, to
do this or whatever? Like why do I have to
spend money for you to come see me? And so
that's the part that I'm struggling with, you know, or
(18:39):
even you know growing up knowing like my mother and
I we faced some very volatile situations because of her
substance abuse, but going to him was never an option
at all, like from a never offered anything. And so
I'm just trying to understand, like what, why were you
(19:00):
okay with that?
Speaker 3 (19:02):
Did you ask him this?
Speaker 2 (19:04):
So I didn't ask him that last question.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
I realized that when it came out out of my mouth,
is that I never asked him. How there's this? It's
always an incident, right, And I write about this in
my book. So my mother I had a journal growing up,
and I wrote in the journal some very I was
very angry about my mother's drug use, which was unfolding
in front of my eyes. And what that was happening.
(19:28):
So I wrote some very unflattering things about her in
my journal. I've kept the journal since I was young.
My mother found the journal. She read the journal because
you know, black parents don't believe in privacy. I don't know,
so she read the journal and the frank is what
I could saying, is my mama, who my ass? And
she felt disrespected and she put all my stuff in
(19:49):
the garbage bag and she dropped me off at my
father's job. He worked off the cast corridor at the
Harbor Light Center. It used to be the Harbor Light
Center's not there anymore. It was a drug reability place.
My father was completely taken off guard about what had happened,
so he took me to my grandparents' house. He's called
my mother like when you coming to get her, blah
blah blah blah blah and all of that. But at
(20:14):
no point, not just with that incident, but when me
and my mom got evicted and others like. He was
never in a position to really do anything, and he
never like the idea of me ever at any point
living with him for a week could never have happened.
And I can respect that he had financial limitations. But
(20:37):
I got to be honest, I don't really get the
sys that he even wanted something like that or even
cared about something like that. And so I guess that
is and especially later in life when he faced financial difficulties,
he could come to me.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
And I have been there for him when he has.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Faced some of these difficulties, and just the lopsidedness of
that always struck me.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
It's like I could never depend on this man for.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Anything, but yet he knows anytime he needs to, he
could probably call me and ask me for money and
has so, and I've given it to him. And it's
just like I don't get this at all. It's like
it just it just felt very lopsided, like I'm the
one reaching out, I'm the one doing this, like I
don't get it.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Well, First to the accountability piece. You know, parents of
our generation, well their generation, they were taught but speak
when speak when spoken to. And so my mother, I
remember when I started caring for her when I got married.
She would get upset at me when I would hold
her responsible for some of her behavior that was unacceptable.
She would always say, but boy, I'm your mama. I said, well, no, right,
(21:43):
now you're dam Marie Crumb and you're wrong. I said,
let's talk through this, and so I would hold my
stance then and make her talk like, hey, you're doing
this wrong. You shouldn't treat this person that way. I
don't like the way you did this. And I always
was respectful because I have to honor her. But at
the same time, you know, love without truth is compromised,
so I had to let her know in a way
(22:05):
that was respectable. And so but their generation, they weren't
taught to communicate with their children in a way like
their human beings. It was simply almost like we were
not pest. But you know how you tell your dog
to do this and do this and do that, and
it's no talk back. But now parents are understanding like, no,
(22:25):
I need you to communicate. I need you to express
what you're feeling. You know, you would tell a boy
to shut up or don't cry, and then you wonder
why when he's in eighth grade he doesn't talk to
you about his problems. And so that generation of parenting,
which I often call fear based parenting, it didn't leave
room for us as children to really have a relationship
(22:47):
with them. So they don't really know what that's like.
I believe our generation is the first like parenting generation
where we could actually have that type of relationship with
our children, where we would treat them like human beings
and once they get to that stage where they can
actually comprehend what we're saying. You know, I talked to
my son like he was an adult. When I think
(23:09):
Jason was like ten years old, I started communicating with him.
I didn't really like the whole hard hand type of
discipline that many fathers have. I'm like, no, I would.
I should be able to communicate with my son and
your father at his age. My father died at seventy seven.
He didn't have that capacity. My sister has some of
(23:31):
the same issues you have with your father that she
has with our dad because men back then didn't tap
into the nurturing side. They didn't tap into that being
very transparent and openly lovingly. I mean not a lot
of men. Some fathers did, and maybe your father was
just wired that way. And so that's why I was saying,
(23:52):
did you ask him like, why does it seem like
I have to always pursue you? Why don't you do this?
You gotta remember, but no one's in mind read. That's
one of the most valuable lessons I learned from my
psychotherapy sessions is, especially in marriage, say what you need
instead of just waiting for someone to respond and then
now you holding bitterness or you're angry. It's like, no,
(24:15):
I want you to know. This is what I feel,
and this is what I need from this relationship, and
I would like to know why aren't you given this
to me? And it's just something I'm doing that's preventing me.
And so I would say, give your father the opportunity
to right is wrong. And you know, I was in
a situation where I didn't have an opportunity to right
(24:35):
my wrong and it hurts because I'm not a mind reader.
I didn't know my actions offended and hurt my son
the way they did. I just would I'm real big
on correction. Give me an opportunity to right my wrong
and maybe that's what your father needs. And then, you know,
and having a person in the middle, like a psychotherapist,
(24:57):
preferably someone who can help him dig a little deeper,
could help both of you flush this out in a
way where there's no condemnation, but only compassion and communication.
So yeah, I mean getting to ask would be willing
to have a session with you and say, hey, Dad,
I don't want to let any more time lapse between us.
(25:17):
I want to see you and would you be open
for me and you just to talk in front of
a counselor or therapist and see what he says.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
That is a great suggestion and I will give that
some serious thought. And as I said, that is why
that chapter in your book really resonated with me, because
it made for the first time in three years, think about, well,
maybe this probably isn't the healthiest way to get with
It's I been like, I'm just never talking to you again.
Speaker 3 (25:45):
Yeah, if it feels safe. But you know, but how
we you know, I guess this is my background in
the combative arts. We're trained to see the outcome before
it happens, because every time you punch people don't realize
every time you punch it someone, you're open and get hit.
And so I'm like, okay, is this the best decision
(26:07):
long run for me? And I'm losing so much time.
And I can't say this guy's name because you know him.
He's really popular. But he and I had talked when
I was in La, and he felt really bad about
denying his father an opportunity to see him. And before
when he was considering going to see his dad, his
(26:29):
father died and I told him it was We had
a really beautiful conversation, and I said, you know, you
would have been there if he wouldn't have done this.
That was liberating to him because he was holding onto
misplaced gill. He was just only responding to the way
his father had treated him or not treated him. So
(26:50):
that's what you're doing. But now that you know that,
who's going to cross the line. There's the principal again.
I refuse to allow the enemy to win. I want
to win. I don't want to lose. I got so much.
If I'm telling you, if I could go back, I
would record my father the same way I did my mother.
Every conversation we would have, I would record and just
(27:11):
hear her heart and those things I play to this day.
And so don't deny him. But most important, he says,
don't deny yourself of the love you long to receive
from your father. This is that love you know would
and never give you. I can't give you, your friends
can't give you. That can only come from your father,
and so I'm saying, you know, walk through that door
(27:32):
and at least exhaust all of your options. So if
it doesn't happen, you can say, well, I gave it
my all.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
OUI chew on that all right, We're done with me.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Politics is the production of iHeart Podcast and the Unbothered Network.
I'm your host Jamel Hill. Executive producer is Taylor Chakogine.
Lucas Hyman is head of audio and executive producer. Original
music Politics provided by Coyle vist from wiz FX
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