Ep 06: The Politics of American Basketball - Featuring Craig Robinson

Jemele's "The Filibuster" draws attention to the mounting gap between American and European basketball. North Carolina Central University head men's basketball coach LeVelle Moton relays the changes he's seen in how young American hoopers are developed. Then, Jemele is joined by Craig Robinson, executive director of the National Association of Basketball Coaches, co-host of Ways to Win with John Calipari, and older brother to Michelle Obama. Craig reminisces on Michelle pushing him to be a better athlete, his development as a basketball player, and his unconventional transition into coaching. Craig also shares his experience with being unfairly fired and his thoughts on whether NIL harms the culture around American basketball. Finally, Jemele addresses a reader who wants to know why Black athletes aren’t as politically and socially active as they were during the Civil Rights era.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's up, everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to Politics and iHeart podcast
and Unbothered Network production.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Time to get spolitical.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
So this week we're going to have a conversation about
one of the biggest wedge issues in America immigration Now only,
let's have this conversation through the lens of basketball. On
the first night in the NBA this season, a record
tying one hundred and twenty five international players from a
record tyme forty three countries were on opening night rosters.
This is the result of the NBA's global popularity, which

(00:38):
has been decades in the making. But as the NBA's
international reach continues to expand, in the NBA game itself
has taken on more of an international feel. Not everybody
is happy about it.

Speaker 3 (00:49):
What changes can the league make to bring more competitive
balance to both sides of the ball.

Speaker 4 (00:54):
I know what they can do.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Get rid of all the Europeans.

Speaker 4 (01:04):
Look, you just said it.

Speaker 5 (01:09):
You just said it.

Speaker 3 (01:10):
You go to college and learn defense college and Europeans
go to I'm with you know, I just like it.
Don't go to college. They have no athletics. Give something,
come over, no athleticism.

Speaker 5 (01:21):
They all come over.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
They have no athleticism, right, They have no speed, no
jumping ability. They are a liability on defense. There's one
hundred and fifty euros in the league today. Name the
top ten defenders. No, I'm not right, just to Rudy
Goldberg in Greek de free. Other than that, they're just
offensive players.

Speaker 4 (01:43):
They're not defensive players. Right.

Speaker 3 (01:46):
So the NBA took away aggression. They took away aggression
to open up.

Speaker 4 (01:53):
The year rod league.

Speaker 3 (01:55):
When they first started to get in here, it was
too rough for them and so they didn't make it.

Speaker 4 (01:59):
They didn't make it right.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
So eventually they softened the rule. They just soften the
rules for the Americans. They softened the rules to open
it up international.

Speaker 4 (02:07):
So when they're saying.

Speaker 3 (02:08):
The Euros that's going to run the league in the
next five years, why do you think that more threes
pass and come? This is not our league. This is
not the American style. This is the euro style.

Speaker 2 (02:19):
Sounds like Gilbert Arenas supports mass deportation. Now Gilbert's wild
conspiracy theory aside, because he.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Must have forgot that.

Speaker 2 (02:27):
The league eliminated handschecking in two thousand and four, the
first of many rule changes that would happen to benefit
offensive players. They did that because fans complained that the
game was too physical and they basically got tired of
seeing Big ten basketball at the NBA level. I went
to a Big ten school, I can say that. But
the surge of international players dominating in the NBA is
raising some compelling questions about the state of American basketball.

(02:49):
Are international players now better equipped and more prepared for
NBA's success because their systems of development is perhaps better
than the American systems of development, namely AAU through high school.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
And college basketball.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
I'll unpack all of that in a moment, but first
a history lesson. In nineteen seventy eight, the NBA played
its first international exhibition game in Israel. It was the
then Washington Bullets against the Maccabees Tel Aviv, a team
that had just won the European Cup by beating a
top tier Italian team. The Bullets, however, were just three
months removed from beating Seattle for the NBA Championships. Now,

(03:24):
not to give them an excuse, but the Bullets were
still in celebration mode. They were out of shape because
back then, to quote Bernie Mack, when players took a
break they broke played by international rules. They allowed zone defense,
which was then illegal in the NBA. The Maccabees beat
the defending champions ninety eight to ninety seven. Now, the
international loss was such an anomaly for the Americans that

(03:46):
the Bullets players they weren't even mad.

Speaker 1 (03:48):
The legendary was unsealed.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
The captain of the Bullets said after the game, I
came to Israel on vacation to enjoy myself. The game
really was not what this trip was all about. Now,
on the world stage, America largely has been known as
having the best brand of basketball in the world, even
before the United States started sending NBA players to represent
the country at the Olympics. The US won the gold
medal with college players and nine of the first twelve Olympics,

(04:11):
But at the nineteen seventy two Olympics in Moscow, the
United States started showing signs it was vulnerable. At that point,
Team USA have won sixty four straight games in Olympic
basketball competition, but in seventy two, the Soviets handed America
a stunning, albeit extremely controversial defeat, and the final seconds
of the gold medal game.

Speaker 1 (04:31):
Well confusion range.

Speaker 3 (04:32):
But the United States still.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
They have that one point late fifty forty nine as
a result of two pressure.

Speaker 2 (04:39):
Pack foul shots by Duck Collins Illinois State.

Speaker 5 (04:44):
Now the clock shows three seconds.

Speaker 2 (04:46):
There is time for the Russians to go to their
big man, Alexander Bellout.

Speaker 5 (04:50):
They're going to try Alexander bell off between two America
defender I girl with it for unbella and the Russian
team has bob y'all Axandrabella. At this time that is over.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
It was Team USA's first Olympic loss ever. The loss
stunk so badly that the US team refused to accept
their silver medals out of protests. While Team USA recovered
from the loss to the Soviets to win gold in
seventy six, something shifted in the landscape. Team USA did
not compete in the eighty Olympics in Moscow because then
President Jimmy Carter led an international boycott of the games

(05:32):
to protest the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. And while in
nineteen eighty four America predictably won gold again, the nineteen
eighty eight team lost to its nemesis again, but unlike
in nineteen seventy two, this time the Soviets left no
doubt that they were the superior team.

Speaker 5 (05:47):
The world that certainly caught up with the United States
in this game. No longer does the US dominate as
they did for so much of these Olympic Games.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
A year after that loss, FIBA made the decision to
allow countries to use professional players to field their Olympic
basketball teams. But here's the irony. Despite suffering some gold
medal losses, the United States actually voted against this change,
voting against our own best interests. There's a metaphor in
there somewhere, but I'm gonna leave that one alone. In

(06:19):
nineteen ninety two, America sent is version of the Avengers
to the Olympics, Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Larry Bird, Charles Barkley,
Scottie Pippen, Clyde Drexler, Patrick Ewing, Chris Mullen, David Robinson,
Christian Laitner, and John Stockland. Now y'all know Dale will
Isaiah Thomas should have been on that team, And no,
I don't acknowledge Carl Malone. I'm gonna let y'all google

(06:39):
that way. I'm petty like that. The nineteen ninety two
Dream Team molly wopped everybody team USA's average margin of
victory was thirty one points. But most importantly, that team
established a pathway for the NBA to expand its reach worldwide,
which included further opening the door for international players to
make their way to the NBA.

Speaker 5 (06:57):
We opened up the game to the world.

Speaker 4 (06:59):
So that's why all these guys are playing.

Speaker 5 (07:01):
In the NBA today. The Dream gam is responsible for that.

Speaker 2 (07:05):
But what Magic Johnson probably couldn't anticipate is that the
young international players that were once inspired by the Dream
Team wouldn't just stop it just pursuing a dream NBA career.
They would one day stage a real takeover of American
basketball altogether.

Speaker 6 (07:18):
You know, to be completely honest with you, I had
the opportunity to be a part of USA Basketball for
two years I think it was twenty fifteen and twenty nineteen,
and being an assistant coach for those teams, I'm surrounded
by the best young talent in America, you know, the
k kind of hands to Jason Tatums having mostly Scotty Bars,
Jayalen Green, Jalous.

Speaker 4 (07:38):
You know, list goes on to Jayalen Bronston.

Speaker 6 (07:42):
The list goes on and on, And I had an
opportunity to see firsthand how the game was catching up, right,
There wasn't. There's always been a big gap between the
United States and the rest of the country, and a
lot of that was a large part because of athleticism. Well,
they bridged the gap because of their fundament in their
work ethic and their development. So over here, a lot

(08:04):
of times our young kids at the developmental league such
as the AAUS and the high schools, and even the
lot of years in middle school, it seems as if
they're more concerned with what can I do if I
have the ball in my hands? So everyone is every
workout is a one four flat, well one four flats

(08:24):
for the Allen Ivers's and Gilbert Arenases and those kind
of guys of the world, right, and so how can
you become a star in your own role?

Speaker 4 (08:32):
And what happens?

Speaker 6 (08:33):
I think my personal opinion is American born citizens don't
know what to do when the basketball is not in
their hands anymore. They don't know how to move without it,
they don't know how to play without it. And the
reality is, in a forty eight minute game in the NBA,
you're going to spend forty five minutes without the ball
in your hands.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
So now what do you do?

Speaker 6 (08:52):
And we haven't mastered that yet through our developmental leagues
and up and coming leagues, and they have. I had
the opportunity to play basketball overseas for seven years, and
one thing I used to notice was that they work
out three times a day and their skill training is
vastly different from ours.

Speaker 4 (09:09):
Our skill training is going in the.

Speaker 6 (09:10):
Gym and working on what we have quote unquote our
bag and imitating some of the moves that we've seen
on Sports Center or something that's going to get your
Instagram real with some more likes and clicks individually shooting,
and then teamwork and playing without the basketball. And so
now you have none American born citizens. That's pretty much
taken over the leave with the Lucas and even like

(09:31):
Joe Embiid, he wasn't, you know, an American citizen, and
then obviously Joker, Jihannis and Liszt is going to continue
to grow until we do something.

Speaker 4 (09:39):
About the grassroots level of our basketball development.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
That was Lavelle Molton, the head men's basketball coach at
North Carolina Central University, and what he's saying is supported
by some fascinating results. The last six MVP awards have
gone to an international player. Nine international players played in
the NBA All Star Game, including six that were starters,
and given the way Luka Doncic, Shay Gilgers, Alexander and

(10:02):
Nikola Jokic are playing so far this season, and international
player winning another MVP is more than possible.

Speaker 4 (10:08):
Now.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
The NBA couldn't be happier about this surging European dominance
because it's had a tremendous impact on the bottom line.
The NBA currently earns six hundred and fifty million dollars
per year in media rights revenue outside of the United States,
and seventy five percent of the NBA's social media followers
aren't on you as soil, and with an extraordinary player
like Victor Winbinyama seemingly on his way to start them,

(10:31):
the demand from abroad to see international players compete only
will increase, but as the skill level of European players
continues to get better, people like coach Moten believe the
skills of American players, especially at the youth level, are
headed in the opposite direction, and.

Speaker 4 (10:47):
So basketball over he has become the new hustle.

Speaker 6 (10:50):
Right, everybody's a skill training that right, and parents don't
know any better. They're just putting their kids under the
watchful eye of a guy that's making them go in
and out of cone or just google some drills off
of YouTube, charging them forty five dollars an hour, and
parents just don't know, right. And so the other thing
that's lacking the development is there was a time where

(11:10):
the drug dealers sponsored the teams. Now the drug dealers
are no, Like, what in the world is going on
out here now?

Speaker 2 (11:18):
I don't mean to make it sound like there aren't
young American basketball players dominating in the NBA. Anthony Edwards,
Jason Tatum, Jalen Brown, Jalen Brunson, Donovan Mitchell, Devin Booker,
those guys are all pretty damn good. But in this
hyper capitalistic American society, the greed permeating youth basketball is
negatively impacting youth basketball development, and therefore the superstar pipeline

(11:41):
doesn't look the same. Five years ago, my former ESPN
colleague Baxter Holmes wrote a fascinating story about how they
increased emphasis on specialization and the grind of the AAU
circuit are collectively damaging the health of young basketball prospects.
According to research, young American basketball players are experiencing a
much higher rate of injury than European players because while

(12:02):
international players start playing with professionals at a young age,
they don't play in nearly as many games as their
American counterparts.

Speaker 1 (12:09):
For example, Zion.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Williamson and Jah Morant went one to two in the
twenty nineteen NBA draft, and LaMelo Ball went third in
the draft the following year. Between the three of them,
they've missed almost five hundred games due to injuries. Now,
what did they all have in common extensively competing in AAU. Meanwhile,
Luka Dancic, who started playing professionally when he was thirteen
and is in his seventh NBA season, He's played in

(12:32):
an average of sixty six regular season games per year.
Jokic is averaging seventy five games, and Yannis seventy two. Now,
this isn't to say that every foreign player is a
picture of health, but Americans playing professional schedules as they're
still developing can't be good. But with so much money
and exposure on the line, coach Moten believes the development
of young American players is no longer a priority.

Speaker 6 (12:55):
You know, AAU has always been beneficial because it showcases
the top. But I think it's become extremely toxic because
there's no substance to it.

Speaker 4 (13:07):
Right.

Speaker 6 (13:09):
Part of basketball is being able to compete at a
high level every possession. But these kids aren't competing anymore
because of AAU. If you lose at nine o'clock, then
you play again at twelve o'clock, And if you lose
at twelve o'clock, then you play again at four fifteen.
If you lose again, then you play the following weekend
with another team. Right, and so the art of the

(13:31):
competition has gone. When I grew up, and I hate
to be that guy when I like, I don't want
to be that guy. But our AAU team in North Carolina,
there was only one AAU team in the city that
I was in Raleigh, North Carolina, and we were called
the Raleigh Stars, and we had to be selected. It
was myself and Jerry Stackhouse and guys like that.

Speaker 4 (13:51):
Right.

Speaker 6 (13:52):
But what happened is AU has become super saturated. Right,
People who fathers wasn't saw their children wasn't good enough
to make a team, they went out and started their
own AAU team. And now it's become nothing but a
money graph. Right, So AAU at his core hasn't served
this initial purpose to develop the talent and showcase the talent.

Speaker 4 (14:13):
It's now a money grap.

Speaker 6 (14:14):
You go to any AAU tournament in the country and
parking is fifty dollars for the weekend entry feeous seventy
five dollars. Right, gatorays are eight dollars. Like, it's just
a money grap. It's just a hustle. Everyone that's connected
to this game are now using it to hustle it
instead of to develop the talent and simply strictly care

(14:35):
about these kids and their overall development. And that's what
AAU used to be. And somehow or another, we got away
from that, and it's coming back to bidens. And now
we got to send a thirty six year old Kevin
Durant and a forty year old Lebron James to the
Olympics and Steph Curry to steal save us instead of
having twenty two to twenty three year olds go compete
for our country.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
While I'm certainly not suggesting American basketball players are about
to go the way of the dinosaur, were fast approaching
the time where America isn't going to enter every Olympics
as the best team, and perhaps we should also get
used to the fact that the title of best player
in the world isn't an American birthright.

Speaker 1 (15:11):
I'm Jamelle Hill and I approved this message.

Speaker 2 (15:15):
Up next, on politics, I'm going to continue this conversation
about the state of American basketball with the executive director
of the National Association of Basketball Coaches. He also was
a former head coach at Brown and Oregon State, and
he is host of a podcast called Ways to Win
with legendary coach John Calla PARTI and one more important note.
He's the older brother of former First Lady Michelle Obama.

(15:37):
Coming up next on politics, Craig Robinson. Well, Craig, I
want to just start by thanking you for joining me.
I know you're a very busy person, and it's because
I adore you so much and love so many of

(15:57):
the things that you talk about, just from a leadership
stateandpoint some of the principals you share. I'm going to
start this podcast by asking you what is your favorite
sports memory?

Speaker 5 (16:08):
Ooh, So I have been fortunate enough to have so
many great sports memories. I mean, I mean, you know,
I'm a Chicagoan, so you know the feeling when, when,
when the when the Bears won their first when their
Super Bowl when I was still living there, the Bulls
first couple of championships. I loved the Cubs winning the

(16:30):
World Series. And then on a personal note, just having
played basketball my whole life, I mean, we had IVY
League championships when I was at Princeton. One of my
favorite memories after playing at Princeton and professionally and then
working some friends of mine, John Rodgers from Aerial Capital Management,

(16:51):
Arnie Duncan who was the Secretary of Education, Kit Miller
who was another Princeton basketball player, a guy named Eric
Kubi who was our friend from Chicago, played competitive three
on three and ended up winning the World three on
three championship. So we were the precursor to this three
on three foba Olympic stuff. We would have been an
Olympic team, that's how good we were. But my favorite

(17:15):
memory wasn't really a basketball a sports memory. It was
an event memory. So think back to Barack getting inaugurated
the first time. So you know, the election happens in November,
but the inauguration doesn't happen until January, so that's right

(17:35):
in the middle of basketball season. I met Oregon State
coaching and my family, and I fly from Oregon to
d C to go to the inauguration and all the ceremonies.
But we're playing Cal on Thursday, and the inauguration for
some reasons, on a Tuesday. Right, it's not even on

(17:57):
the weekend, so I can make it and back from
DC to the Bay Area. The team practices without me.
My assistant coaches do a great job. I'm thinking there's
no way we could win this game. We're playing at Cal.
They were good then. And I get there in time

(18:19):
to get to the bus to go to the arena,
and I go in the back way as you always do.
The team's warming up. I'm in the locker room trying
to drop a play. I don't know what to say
to the team, right, I'm emotional. I'm worried about them
because I wasn't there. And the team goes up to

(18:40):
warm up, and you know, the coaches don't come out
till about three minutes before the game starts. And I
come out and all of a sudden, the crowd stands
up and there is a roar of standing ovation applause,
and I know it's because a Baraka Michelle. But the

(19:02):
warmth that I felt from that crowd, Jamelle, I was
almost a blubbering idiot before the start of the game
in the hubble, I had to have the guy stand
around me. I was so emotional and I said, look, guys,
I don't know what to say. I said, I want
to win this game badly, but I don't have much

(19:22):
for you. I mean you could still hear it in
my voice, and I didn't know what to say.

Speaker 4 (19:26):
Do you know?

Speaker 5 (19:26):
They went out and played an almost perfect game for
a team that was sort of didn't have their coach there.
And it's a tribute to my staff, It's a tribute
to them, It's a tribute to the people at CAL,
you know. I mean they were rooting for their team, right,
but they really showed some love for me that day.

(19:49):
That has to be at the top of my list
of greatest sports memories. And I'll never forget it. And
I mean, to this day, Cal holds a warm place
my heart. Right Like when I was when I was
younger and thinking about colleges, I would have never thought
to go to CAL. I wish I had known about it,
and because I might have applied, but it was a

(20:11):
great memory.

Speaker 2 (20:12):
Now, was there any small part of you that said,
day I wasn't here and they played flawlessly, what is happening?

Speaker 4 (20:20):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (20:21):
Well, you know what it says is that you don't
win games the day of. It's all the work you
put in before you get there. And it was great
to see that they executed. Now, once we got into
the game, you know, I got back to my normal self.
But I mean the way they started that game, they

(20:42):
were just on point, and it was as if they
wanted to show me that they weren't going to they
weren't going to let themselves down, but they weren't going
to let me down because because they knew that I
wasn't missing in action, I had to I had to go.
There was something bigger at stake here. But yet, Jamelle,
you are right. You know a lot of coaches are replaceable.

(21:06):
They think they're irreplaceable, but they're replaceable.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
I know the story, but I know there might be
some listeners right now who don't know the story. So
let's talk about your sports origin story. How did you
get involved in playing basketball?

Speaker 5 (21:19):
Well, I'm old enough to be back in the day
where there wasn't all this youth sports right, and I
got involved in basketball just as a way of My
dad would come home from work and want us to
be out of the house, and he was a recreation guy.
Even though he was handicapped. He was outside we'd be

(21:40):
playing catch. And when I say we, my sister too.
My sister and I were interchangeable, so we because she
was the only one I had to play with other
than my dad, and my mom would join in too,
So we would play the sports that were available, and
baseball was my first sport. I wanted to be a
football player, and basketball was act lead. My third sport,

(22:01):
a tie with hockey, because I will you know, being
from Detroit, hockey big was big in Chicago. They used
to freeze all the parks in the winter time and
you could go skate and we lived right down the
street from a park, so we played hockey too. And
we would go on vacation. We went to a place
in Michigan, white Cloud, Michigan called Duke Do you know,

(22:26):
Duke's Happy Holiday Resort. It might not been there when
you came along, but it was in white Cloud. It
was one of these It looked like a motel, but
we thought coming from Chicago. We thought it was the
Ritz Carlton. It had a pool, it had a game room,
and it had a tennis court and basketball court. And
that was when my dad started teaching me the game

(22:47):
of basketball. That's how I got started playing. And I
didn't play organized basketball till I was about eleven or
twelve years old, like my kids all started when they
were three or four. And I played at the at
the youth level, AAU and sort of wreck ball at
the y m c A and AAU. Then was you

(23:08):
went to one tournament of summer and different now it's
so different now. Yeah, and then I played in high
school and got recruited to go to Princeton.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
Now, you know, maybe some people don't know this, perhaps
they were just, you know, hatched from an alien pod.
But of course Greg's sister is a former First Lady
Michelle Obama. You mentioned her as an athlete, right, What
kind of athlete was Michelle?

Speaker 5 (23:32):
So she was She was really really good and unfortunately
back then, there weren't a lot of sports for women
and girls at the time. But she could play every
sport I played. She could play soft she played baseball, softball, basketball,

(23:53):
and she ran track. We went to a day camp
in Chicago at Rainbow Beach, and she would win all
the ribbons for So she was fast athletic, and she
had the spirit of an athlete, right, so she was
trying to win. She wasn't just out there for exercise, right,
And so she was a really good athlete. And I

(24:14):
always tell people part of the reason why I ended
up being a good athlete was because I had her
a practice with all the time. Because my dad, like
I mentioned, he had MS from the time I was
could remember, he walked with a with a limp and
it got progressively worse so he couldn't run. So my
sister did all the running for him. And my mom

(24:36):
was out there too, but not as much. So she
was the reason that kept me going when I didn't
have anybody to play with. So and unfortunate, I say, unfortunately,
she sort of passed all this when she went to
high school. Her athletic career pretty much ended because you know,
she didn't like how uncompetitive the teams were then. And

(25:02):
she also I also she she'll she'll say she doesn't
agree with me on this, but my sister didn't enjoy
people having to lose, not just her losing. She didn't
like the idea of making someone else feel bad because
she beat the daylights out of them. And as you know,
we competitors, we love that feeling, right, We love that it.

(25:26):
Like I hear you talk about playing spades with your friends,
That's how I am. The best part of spades is
the other person losing. The other person loses more fun
than me would it.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
I thought this was known, but.

Speaker 5 (25:39):
But she so. She she'll disagree with me when I
say that, but she's really she's really very compassionate that way.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
Now, So when you all were, you know, kind of
playing against one another, be honest, often did she get
the best of you?

Speaker 5 (25:54):
Oh? So, now you this is here's where you get
Maryann and Fraser Robinsons first life lessons to me, some
of the first life lessons. So it got to be
no matter what we were doing, whether it was a
board game or we were playing with our toys, or
we were doing something in sports, it got to a

(26:15):
point where she could not beat me in anything, and
my father pulled me aside. Is like, you're gonna lose
your partner in crime if you keep dominating the game.
You gotta point shave. Sometimes you gotta let her win
so that she'll keep playing. And you know, Jamelle, just
think about that. Just think about now. My dad was

(26:36):
he was helping me out, but he was helping her
out too, or I said that backwards. He was helping
her out, but he was really helping me out. It
was it was sort of the first lessons of being empathetic.
And he said, you can win every game and enjoy
her losing, but she won't play with you, and he
was right. And so every now and then I would

(27:00):
make I would point shave and she'd win and I'd
be like, oh god, I can't believe you beat me
on this, and I played it up and uh. And
then my mom was like, get you can't be too
much of a hammer. She's gonna figure it out. But she,
of course, because I'm twenty months older than her, and
most of the time we were playing physical sports. You

(27:22):
could see I could be more physical than she could.
But it was it was really every now and then
she went like, in board games, I didn't have to
point shape because it's just the luck of the game.
She would be as good as I was. And we
played everything. We played Monopoly, we played this game called
Hands down. We played all sorts of games the four

(27:45):
of us did, so she got her share of real
winning without without without us helping her.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
You know what, that next time I lose to my
husband and golf, I'm gonna tell him that I'm be like,
you know, I wanted to make sure I keep yourself
esteem high. So that's why I lost. So you just
gave me the perfect perspective and to go with the
perfect narrative to sit with him the next time we're
on the golf court.

Speaker 5 (28:09):
Yeah, because see, if you end up beating him too much,
he's going to start coming up with reasons why y'all
can play together.

Speaker 2 (28:15):
No, I think we're both super competitive, so I don't
think you have to worry about that with us and place.
We started golfing at the same time, and I think
that has been really helpful with that. But we're both
you know, we both pay sports in high school and
so like that competitive fire.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
Ain't no letting anybody win anything in our house.

Speaker 5 (28:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:34):
Yeah, So, I now, at what point, as you were
developing as an athlete, did you realize you were a
special player or maybe had a little bit more talent
than your peers.

Speaker 5 (28:46):
Man, I wish I could say it was early, but
it was not right. I was always a late bloomer,
you know, I didn't I was. I was. So I
played what was called biddy basketball at the time. I'm
in seventh and eighth grade, and you couldn't be taller
than five six. So I was able to play that

(29:07):
till about the beginning of my eighth grade year, and
then I grew to about five eight five nine, and
I couldn't play anymore. So going into high school, I
was probably six feet tall, and when I graduated from
high school, I was six' four and then by the
TIME i was done, GROWING i was about six seven

(29:27):
and SO i was never the best player until about
my senior year in high. School but back, then you,
know at least in our, household we weren't banking on
basketball do anything but be extracurricular. Activity SO i got

(29:47):
good grades because my family emphasized doing your, best and
in our, house doing your best was getting a's and.
B's that if you didn't get, b's you had to
answer for whether or not you did your. Best and
it was the Best jedi mind trick my parents ever,
did because you knew when you didn't do your, best

(30:10):
because every time you did your, best you got. Aids
so we were looking at basketball that way UNTIL i
went to this camp Called athletes For Better education and
it was out Of, Whitewater, wisconsin and it was the
precursor to what we now know as the Nike Y
All American. Camp the people who started that camp ended

(30:32):
up blossoming that into the Nike Y'all American, camp and
they invited the best players from The, midwest The chicago
area to play at a. Camp AND i was on
a team With Darryl, walker who ended up playing in THE.
Nba went To Corlis High school In. CHICAGO i went
To Mount. Carmel we were on the same team and
we won the. Championship THEN i started hearing from teams

(30:53):
AND i didn't even know you would hear from. Colleges
it never crossed my mind that people recruited first. College
and that was WHEN i, realized, oh Maybe i'm pretty
good at this and it's, Amazing. Jamelle that was WHEN
i realized how much confident plays into being a professional

(31:17):
or being a being really good at what you. Do
we were always taught to be, Humble i'm sure you
know growing up on The South side Of, chicago black,
family you had to if you were a black male. Too,
see my parents raised me to be, Humble they raised
my sister to be have a big, mouth. Right it
was really it's. Amazing we talk about in our family

(31:38):
all the. Time it's because for men had you can't
be too, uppity you can't be too, braggadocious you can't
be too, arrogant and women had to be able to
advocate for themselves. Loudly AND i could see it in my,
sister AND i used to always, think, MAN i WISH
i could say to some of the things she says
to her, teachers you. Know but that was WHEN i

(32:00):
realized confidence is part of this whole life. Experience and
SO i would say probably the end of my high school.
CAREER i, realized ONCE i started getting, recruited Maybe i'm
pretty good at. This but never DID i THINK i
get drafted or be able to play, overseas or be
being able to play, professionally you, know not at. ALL
i was using it as a means to an, end

(32:24):
and that was, education get a good, education because neither
of my parents went to.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
College what's really fascinating about your life is Like you've
made a lot of very dramatic career pivots or you,
know in your, life and one of the first ones
that you made was going as you, mentioned your professional.
Career you went to THE, nba you played, overseas and
then you just left that to do, finance, right and

(32:50):
what was the reason that you, decided, hey or how
did you KNOW i should ask that it was time
for you to stop playing.

Speaker 5 (32:57):
Basketball so it was relatively easy for me, because as you,
MENTIONED i got drafted into THE. NBA i got drafted
by the Six ers when they won at the year
after they won the, championship so they had one red
room for one contract and it was the number one draft,

(33:17):
Pick Leo, rautins and he AND i played the same,
position SO i could see the writing on the. Wall
and that was WHEN i was, like, man even if
you get, here it's so hard to get. Here and
THEN i went overseas and. PLAYED i was fortunate enough
to be able to play a couple of years over,
there and the money back, Then jamil was not like

(33:37):
it is, now like you could make a living over.
THERE i could have played ten, years BUT i would
have been making sort of you, know high, nineties low six.
Figures that would have been about. It and with my,
DEGREE i. COULD i, mean you know my friends who
went straight To Wall. Street that was their bonus, check,
Right so they were Like, craig whenever you're, ready come

(34:02):
start coming to. Work and it was. INTERESTING i almost
didn't even do that because WHEN i was deciding whether
not to go back over or, NOT i came back From.
ENGLAND i played In england for two. YEARS i came,
back flew Through newark AND i don't know if you

(34:23):
see you're too young to remember, this but there used
to be an airline Called People's express and they would
fly From newark To london.

Speaker 1 (34:29):
And it was just that sounds like it was made.

Speaker 5 (34:31):
Up it sounds like it's made. Up it used to be,
there but it was a cheap flight From newark To.
London AND i used to take that flight back and,
forth And i'd stop off In newark and i'd go
down To princeton to visit me my, sister and Visit
Coach carill and visit all my friends who were still playing.
There and WHEN i was In, england the coach there

(34:54):
Knew Coach, carill and he Knew princeton he knew about
The princeton, offense and he asked me to implement some
of it with our, team AND i did and we,
won AND i was said to, myself this is. It
i'm going to be a. Coach and SO i started
mapping out this plan of all, right let, me let
me talk to Coach carill about. It AND i went

(35:17):
back To princeton AND i, Said, COACH i figured out
WHAT i want to. DO i want to be a.
Coach AND i thought he would just embrace the idea
of me following in his. Footsteps he meant so much
to me THAT i wanted to be a. Coach you
know what he. Said he, Said, craig you don't want
to be a FUCK i don't even know if we
can curse on everybody he. Said he, said you don't

(35:38):
want to be a fucking. Coach he was, LIKE i
can't believe you want to be a fucking.

Speaker 4 (35:42):
Coach.

Speaker 5 (35:43):
Here you are a black kid from The South side
Of chicago and you got This princeton degree and you
can't let go of the. Game AND i was, like
AND i was completely. DEVASTATED i was, heartbroken BUT i
realized he wasn't coming from a place of. Negativity he.

(36:04):
Was he was he THOUGHT i was destined for. More
and back then basketball coaches weren't making these big. Salaries
it was a fankless, job he, thought and he wanted
me to aspire for. More AND i was like. Tag
and NOW i got to regroup and figure out What
i'm going to. Do AND i went home AND i

(36:25):
talked to my Friend John, rodgers WHO i was telling
you about From Aerial Capital, management Fellow princeton, grad one
of my dearest friends for a long. Time he, said
you should look into. Finance he, Said i'll give you
some names and. Numbers and that was HOW i got
into the finance. World AND i did that for fourteen.
Years but here's WHAT i didn't, Do. JAMIL i didn't

(36:49):
give up on my dream of being a coach BECAUSE
i THOUGHT i could be really good at. This and
THEN i thought about the coaches THAT i, had starting
with my parents all the way up to the professional
COACHES i. Had and so WHEN i got my first
bonus check it working in the, FINANCE i was, like holy,

(37:09):
smokes IF i can do, this AND i was at
the time twenty three ish twenty, Four IF i can
do this for fifteen, years twenty, Years i'll be forty.
FIVE i can save up enough, money pay for my,
house pay for my kids' education WHEN i finally have,
kids and THEN i can teach seventh grade and coach

(37:31):
high school. Basketball that was my exit. Strategy that was,
It and SO i just started on. That and you
talk about making these big, pivots you, KNOW i attribute
that to, again my. Parents my parents were always the.

(37:53):
Type the biggest LESSON i learned from my parents was
don't let other people think of you dictate who you.
Are it was a self just the self worth stuff
they taught us was tremendous AND i think about them
all the time WHEN i think about these kids having
to deal with social. Media my parents would be, like

(38:16):
what do you care what they? Say? For, wow these
are people who don't even know. You my mom would,
say the people who care about you sit around this
table every night and talk to you and know, you
and you listen to. Them don't listen to all these
people out in the. Street and that's what she used to,
say don't listen to people out in the. Street and
it was the best ADVICE i ever got because that

(38:38):
on top and then my dad said, man if you're
ever lucky enough to be able to do something you
love and get paid for, it you will never work
a day in your. Life and this is coming from
a man WITH ms who worked a city, job blue,
collar got up every, day worked a swing, shift and
would have loved to do something, else but got up

(39:00):
and went to work every. Day and you, know you
see a guy on crutches going to work every. Day
it just makes you a hard.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
Worker, yeah and then it also doesn't give you an, excuse,
right is.

Speaker 5 (39:11):
Exactly you see what your own father.

Speaker 2 (39:13):
Is, Doing it's, like, well what's my excuse not to
work as hard as he? DID i want to talk
about another major, pivot because you mentioned that you. Left
you were in, finance what about fourteen fifteen years somewhere in, there, right, yep,
yeah and then you do decide to jump into, coaching,
right but you weren't coaching seventh, graders you weren't in middle.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
School you jump.

Speaker 2 (39:34):
Into college, coaching so clearly you didn't follow your former.

Speaker 1 (39:40):
COACHES i just so WHAT i.

Speaker 5 (39:43):
DID i didn't follow his, advice and THEN i changed my.
Plan but what happened was an opportunity of a lifetime
came at the. Time so the Way princeton RECRUITS i
come to find out after having gone, there is they
used their network of people who live all around the

(40:04):
country who played basketball At princeton to recommend guys who
they think would be Great princeton. Players AND i was
doing that in The chicago, area so whenever they came To,
CHICAGO i mean you could you could. Imagine by this
TIME i had moved back To. CHICAGO i was working
For Morgan stanley In, chicago still trading and in the

(40:24):
sales and trading, arena SO i had my days were,
busy but my afternoons and NIGHTS i COULD i could
go to games and hang. Out. Uh so when they
would come to, TOWN i would take him around to
the to the good games THAT i, knew where kids
had good grades but were good. Players and our assistant
coach At princeton Was Bill, carmody who later then Became.

(40:46):
Northwestern At northwestern yeah, yeah oh, yeah another one of your.
Connections and he got the job At northwestern and he
calls me up once he gets the, job AND i was, like,
coach you beat me to the. PUNCH i was gonna
call the say, Congratulations AND i thought he was coming
out to look at some. PLAYERS i was, LIKE i

(41:08):
got a better group of players for you to look.
At and he's, like, no, no come, down calm. DOWN
i want to ask you if you see if you'd
be interested in being my assistant. Coach and So i'm
on the trading desk when he calls, me AND i was,
like let me call you right. Back AND i hang
up the. Phone and So i'm running the desk SO
i have my second in. COMMAND i was, like, look

(41:29):
handle the. DESK i got to make a phone. Call
SO i go downstairs out the door because the trading
room is so loud and busy you can't talk. PRIVATELY
i jump in a cab AND i, said just drive.
AROUND i got a phone call to. Make And i'm
talking to him and he's going. Through he's trying to
sell me this job of being an assistant coach At,
northwestern AND i am so blown away THAT i don't

(41:52):
even know how to say. NO i just, say you know,
WHAT i want to do. This But i'm partners with
people at this. Firm Now i'm at a Different i'm
at a smaller firm Where i'm one of the. PARTNERS i,
SAID i got to talk to my, partners make sure
it's okay with, them and Then i'll give you an.

(42:13):
Answer give me forty eight. Hours and he said, Sure
and SO i go back to my. Partners, now mind, You,
Jamel i'm going through a horrible. Divorce i've got two small,
kids eight and. Four AND i go to the guy
who runs the, firm who's a good friend of, mine
AND i, Said, JIM i got to tell. You SO

(42:34):
i got an offer to be an assistant coach At Northwestern,
university AND i THINK i want to take. It and
you know what he said to. Me the first thing he,
said he, Said, craig how much did him job? Pay
because you, know you can imagine how Much i'm making
running a trading. DESK i was, LIKE i think they
MAKE i think assistant coaches making about forty or fifty.
Thousand AND i was saying, that like, cheerfully And he's,

(42:57):
LIKE i can't you do. IT i can't let you do.
It you can't leave for that little of. Money let
me talk to. HIM i was, like, NO i don't
need you to negotiate for. ME i just need you
to understand THAT i don't want to leave you in the.
Lurch but this is an opportunity That i've been waiting
for my whole, life and SO i finally take. It
But i'm worried that my kids are used to this

(43:22):
lifestyle right that we had big, house big, vacations nice,
car private, School So i'm for some, reason leaving it
up to an eight and a four year. Old So
i'm like talking to them About daddy changing, jobs and
the first thing they were, like are you? Moving AND
i was, like, NOPE i don't have to, move But

(43:42):
i'm going to change jobs and it could change the
way we live a little. Bit AND i said to
my eight year old, SON i have eight year old
at the time year old, son four year old. Daughter
daddy's going to be a. Coach AND i waited for
their response and the looks of their, faces and the
eight year old, said does this mean that your office

(44:04):
is a? Gym AND i said, no but it's right
next to the, gym and he, said oh. Cool and my,
daughter right before he could get out, cool she said
do they have a pool? There AND i said yes they,
do and they were, like, oh this is, Great and
that could have gone either, way but in my MIND

(44:26):
i thought it was going, negative, right because they're just.
Kids and that was HOW i made the pivot into college.
Coaching best movie.

Speaker 2 (44:35):
You sell, ever the easiest sell ever a gym and got.

Speaker 5 (44:39):
Them that's, right that's, right that's. Right well Is.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Greg there's so much MORE i want to ask you.
ABOUT i want to ask you about ways to win
your podcast With John colini and get your thoughts on
Today's american basketball culture for. Sure but we're going to
take a quick break and we'll be back with more
With Greg. Robinson so you were mentioning before the break

(45:07):
about how you got into, coaching AND i think your
first head coaching job Was, brown, correct, Correct, Yes, okay
so you were At brown coaching THE ivy.

Speaker 1 (45:16):
Leagues obviously you know you know that league very very,
well that's.

Speaker 2 (45:19):
Right but the jump from assistant to head, COACH i,
mean what was that transition like for?

Speaker 5 (45:26):
You it? Was it Was it seems like it's a small,
jump but it. Is it was a huge move and
the list of responsibilities just exploded, Exponentially AND i THOUGHT
i knew what it was going to be, like but
it hit me like a ton of bricks AND i

(45:48):
had SO i had been coaching At northwestern for six
years as an assistant coach next to a Guy Bill,
carmody who was the type of head coach who was
always preparing you to be a head. Coach SO i
THOUGHT i was really prepared for it UNTIL i got the, job,
Right AND i had interview for a lot of jobs
BEFORE i got The brown. JOB i don't want to

(46:09):
make it sound LIKE i just was like doo doo.
Doop it WAS i must the interview for twelve, jobs you,
know and Finally brown opened up and it was the perfect.
Fit but from hiring your own staff to you, know
all the major decisions being your. Own and at a
place Like, brown there's not a lot of. Resources people

(46:32):
think THE Ivy league is flowing in, endowments but that's
for academics and that's for, research and they they sports
sort of you have to you have to make your own.
Way in, sports you get a little bit of, money
but you have to make your own. Way so, scheduling
you had to decide how many by games you were
gonna get bought, For so those are games you get,

(46:54):
killed but you make some money for the. Program and
the best buy game we, played by the, way Was
Michigan state and that That i'm going to tell you
a quick story because that's your. School we Played Michigan
state At Michigan state and that's one of those games
where you just know you're going to get your head
handed to.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
You and what year with?

Speaker 5 (47:15):
This oh, man, okay so this would have been AN o.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
Six, OKAY i had just seven because when you, okay
it was funny you brought Up Bill carmody BECAUSE i
covered The big, ten SO i very much Remember bill Car.

Speaker 5 (47:27):
Yeah, yeah so you then then then you didn't cover this.
Game but we went to Uh Michigan state and we
ended up losing by, six and that was a feat
in and of, itself but the best. Thing and this
should be on my list of sports. MEMORIES i neglected

(47:49):
to bring this up BECAUSE i didn't think of. IT
i was just thinking on my feet. Here Tom iszo
came into our locker room and then he said on
the in the press conference On NATIONAL, Tv, craig you
have the hardest playing Team i've ever coached. Against now
that's From. Tom he's the pope of playing. Hard and

(48:13):
he came in and said that to my team and to,
me and we just took off after that but it
was one of those games where we just played as
hard as we could and we were prepared for how
hard they, played and that was that was always a.
Memory And, tom of course is on the board of THE,
nabc and he AND i have got a wonderful relationship

(48:33):
and have stayed in touch and all of. That but
he is one of my FAVORITE i, mean you, know,
YEAH i represent all the. Coaches you can't have, favorites
but he's one of my favorites for his outspokenness and
and he just is a truth. Teller BUT i. DIGRESS i.
Digress So i'm At northwestern and AND i, Mean I'm

(48:54):
Matt brown and we Played Michigan, state And i'm just
thinking of the the moving that one share over to
being a head. Coach there's so many responsibilities sort of
thinking strategically about the. Program you don't have to do
that as an, assistant Right you like figuring out film
exchange and doing scouts and things like. That and one

(49:14):
of the hardest things for me was the transition of
not doing the scouts LIKE i did, scouts AND i
was very thorough and giving that up to the assistance
to do that took me a while to be comfortable
with because it was, like if it wasn't done the
WAY i, LIKED i had to be able to accept

(49:36):
the fact that this is their way of doing it
and then sort of fit in WHEN i. Could but
it was a real, transition AND i counseled people who
will ask me about that. Move it's one of the
hardest things to, do and no matter HOW i can
explain how hard it, is it's one of those things
where you have to go. Through it's kind of like
learning how to, drive, right you don't really learn how to,

(49:59):
drive so you get your driver's license and your parents
aren't in the car with you. Anymore you, know you
remember those days where it's, like, OH i can make
a mistake about my dad like being what what are you?
Doing screaming at. You so it's like that now.

Speaker 2 (50:14):
You unfortunately experienced something that more coaches experience than not
is that you went To Oregon.

Speaker 1 (50:20):
State you were let go, there you were separating from
your job to put this fire.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
FIRED i, MEAN i think a lot of, times especially
as you, know the coach is always the lowest hanging.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
Fruit that's always the first person people call for to be.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
Fired, Right but what kind of insight or give people
some insight about what that's. Like because, PROFESSIONALLY i, mean
you take pride of your. Job nobody signs up.

Speaker 5 (50:45):
To be a job.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
Badly nobody's trying to do.

Speaker 2 (50:47):
That so what was that experience like for you being,
fired WHICH i assume might have been one of the
few times in your life that's ever happened to.

Speaker 5 (50:55):
You oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah outside of being cut
from the, sixers, right you just don't get, FIRED i,
mean you, Know but here's WHAT i will. Say it
was the worst thing and the best thing that could
have ever happened to. Me Because i'll tell you this
so having you, know we as black coaches talk about
all the, time we don't get access to the great

(51:17):
jobs or the good. Jobs we get the bad. Jobs
brown was a Bad northwestern was a bad. Job Coach
carmedy got that. One brown was a bad. JOB i got.
That Oregon state was even. Worse AND i got. That
but BECAUSE i had experience in these tough, PLACES i
don't want TO i shouldn't say bad, now they tough.
PLACES i knew exactly what it took to get to

(51:41):
The Promised, land AND i got To. Brown it was
The brown's two winningest years in history got me The
Oregon state. Job got To Oregon, state AND i said
BEFORE i took the, JOB i was, like, look the
only way that this makes sense is if you're going
to understand how long this is gonna. Take If i'm not.

(52:03):
Cheating If i'm not, cheating it's gonna take six years
to get to the point where the seventh year you
have a chance to go to the. Tournament that's WHAT
i told. Them and we get. There we're winning, games graduating,
players and we get to year six AND i am

(52:23):
the second winning as coach In Oregon state. History but
the school there's two things at. Work football team's doing.
Poorly his contract's bigger than, mine they can't fire, him
and everybody knows my. Politics so year six we're set to.

(52:46):
Win we're set to go to the. Tournament year, SEVEN
i get fired In. JUNE i, mean go figure that like,
us it doesn't even make. Sense it's, like fire me
WHERE i can get another. Job fire me In. June
and my ad is, like, WELL i gotta make. It
he tells, ME i gotta make a, move And i'm, like, What,

(53:07):
well then make a move on the football. Coach he's
the one not, winning and SO i get. Fired and
in year, seven the guy comes in and goes to
the tournament with my, players, right and.

Speaker 2 (53:18):
Now everybody's looking at you like this just proves you
were doing a bad.

Speaker 5 (53:22):
Job And i'm like, This, Bruse i'm doing a good.
Job he won with my.

Speaker 2 (53:27):
Guys let's let's talk about ways to win for a.
Moment you your new podcast With Yes John Caller. Party
one of the most winningness coaches in college basketball. History
he just made a hell of a, Pivot, okay to
go From. Kentucky we know about that. Tradition, yes the
numerous top players that call has turned out that are

(53:49):
playing in THE.

Speaker 1 (53:50):
Nba you Know Anthony.

Speaker 2 (53:51):
DAVIS i, mean he's Got it's like The kentucky guards
alone across THE nba is just they can stand on
their own and many.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
Regards so he has been a talent factory for a.
While but now he's At arkansas of all. Places how
surprised were you that he made the jump since you
you know him a little.

Speaker 5 (54:10):
Bit SO i was surprised more That kentucky was willing
to let him go THAN i was surprised that he
made the jump BECAUSE i have been doing this long
enough to, know And i've talked to a lot of,
coaches and, really your gestation time if you're if you're

(54:31):
Not John calipari and you're not winning as much as he,
is and to some people he wasn't winning enough national.
Championships but the gestation period is about six years and
then there needs to be a change on either. Side
but for CAL i mean you said. It he talked
about in one of HIS i can't remember if it

(54:55):
was a tweet Or instagram or he said it, somewhere
but his players have signed over a billion dollars in.
Contracts just think about that wealth for young black. Players
that in and of, itself he would be my coach
for life BECAUSE i could use that pr at my

(55:17):
university and it would help, admissions it would help, fundraising
it would help my freaking football. Team. Right SO i
was more surprised that they let an asset like that
go now where he ended up surprised Because i've always
thought Of arkansas as a football sec. Football it's a football,

(55:39):
school you, KNOW i, mean this is your. Job So
i'm AND i told you football was my first. Board
my parents just wouldn't let me play, it SO i
consume college. Football so when he said when he got,
me because he didn't say anything to, ME i had
to read it in the. Papers and nor WOULD i
have asked him right BECAUSE i wouldn't put him in that.
Position but he said WHEN i Heard. ARKANSAS i was,

(56:02):
like no, way Not. Arkansas they're, trying they're trying to get,
him but it's no way he's going to a basketball.
School AND i WAS i was trying to figure out
if it was going to, be if some moves were going.
On and when he WHEN i finally talked to, HIM
i was, like you're not going To arkansas and he's,
LIKE i THINK i, might he, said and the sound
in his voice he was. Happy and SO i think

(56:25):
this might be a tremendous move for both him And.
Arkansas and they're they're they're getting behind him in a
big way on the nil. Front and that's that's the
that's all you. Need and he was already a good.
RECRUITER i, mean now he takes that ability to send

(56:46):
guys to THE nba and takes it somewhere. Else so
somebody else is going to benefit from that because it to,
Me cal's style of managing players is what helps them
get to THE nba and that begets more.

Speaker 2 (57:01):
Recruits so you mentioned a very hot topic of, conversation
AND i am the three the three, letters And i've
heard some of your thoughts before about, name image and
likeness at least and you can certainly correct me IF
i remember IF i have your viewpoint. Wrong but your
position seems to be like there needs to be some
level of regulation here because it's you know it is

(57:23):
it is a bit of the wild Wild, west like you,
know if we're if we're being, honest, right why do
you think there needs to be more? Guardrails i'll use
that term for, name for, name image and. Likeness what
are you saying that you feel like is maybe problematic
that needs to be dealt.

Speaker 5 (57:41):
With And i'll tell you what it, is because really true,
name image and likeness. Is and let me take a step.
BACK i am thrilled that the student athletes are getting
to participate in this ecosystem of enterprise right because it's
long time. Coming and back WHEN i was coach AND
i used to talk about, this AND i also think

(58:03):
had we had we had we started talking about this
fifteen twenty years ago we wouldn't be at this place
that we are. Now but that's it's neither here nor.
There true, name image and likeness was supposed to be
set up so that student athletes can use their, name their,
image and their likeness to make some extra money for.
Themselves and what we have going on, Now, jamill is

(58:27):
not true, name image and. Likeness it's pay for. Play
let's just call it what it. Is we've got these
collectives paying kids to come to school to play at your,
school and then you might have to sign some motographs
in order to get you collect your. Money so that's not,
real an. Il so what we need is guardrails on
this pay for play situation because what it's causing and

(58:50):
What i'm very fearful of is That and this has
happened even before pay for, play and you know. This
having covered the, sports we have got to be experts
at getting these kids through. College and they get a college,
degree but they're not college. Educated and let me just
make that clear to the. Listeners is What i'm saying

(59:12):
is they get a piece of paper and get a,
degree but when they go to interview for, jobs they're woefully.
Unprepared AND i don't like. THAT i don't think that's
the fair trade. Off the fair trade off is come
out be able to get a job and be a
successful professional away from your. Sport we're losing that because

(59:34):
with the way it's set up, now along with the transfer,
portal student athletes are going to move from place to
place for the hire dollar right, now which isn't very
much money at all unless you're one of these guys
who's getting millions of. Dollars but most of the student
athletes are getting less than one hundred thousand dollars a,
year and it's going toward taxes and jewelry and. Sneakers

(59:59):
in my, opinion it's not you, KNOW i haven't heard anybody, say,
Well i'm putting this in an interest bearing account and
not going to touch it Until i'm forty five years
old And i'll have a little nest egg to buy
my my first home or something like. That so that's
WHY i say there needs to be some sort of
guardrails so that we have an education component to this

(01:00:23):
where we can guarantee that our student athletes will come
out in better shape than they were going in other
than in their.

Speaker 2 (01:00:30):
Pocketbooks, okay so we have And i'm glad you got.
It we have a you, know sort of a.

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
Two worlds or two meteors. Colliding we have.

Speaker 2 (01:00:39):
Nil we have a transfer transfer portal where there's way
more kids in the portal than they are actually jobst
so it's highly. Competitive a lot of kids who, think you,
know grass is. Green on the other, side they're finding
out it is, not because there there is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:53):
No Grass number.

Speaker 2 (01:00:54):
One that's one of the things they're finding. Out how
are these two, things in your, opinion Impacting american basketball culture?

Speaker 5 (01:01:03):
Overall what you're finding is the whole. Nil the. Money
just follow the money and you'll figure it. Out the
money is attracting the subculture of agents, handlers however you
want to call, them who are telling kids that there
are opportunities out there for them somewhere else when there.
Aren't and that's how you get the portal being overloaded

(01:01:27):
with not enough places for folks to. Go and then
what happens to all these people who don't get. Jobs
they end up having to Go, Naia they end up
having to go, nowhere, Right so they sit out a
year and their development starts to go, down and we

(01:01:47):
can't even keep track of those folks, Right and at
the LAST i, heard it was like thirty percent of
the numbers that were in. There and so you've got
two thousand kids in the. Portal that's a lot of
kids who are you, know you're talking about six hundred
kids who are homeless for lack of a better. Term
AND i think this ability to be able to transfer

(01:02:12):
is a good right to have if you're if you're
transparent and, truthful and you know what the opportunities are right.
NOW i don't. THINK i think you have people who
are advising student athletes who don't really have a position
for them to. Go they're trying to entice them to

(01:02:33):
be their client based on the money they say they can.
Get but we're looking, around where is that? Offered nobody
knows we need. THIS i would like to see it
like an, exchange like when you trade stocks and. Bonds
you can see where things are. Trading then you can figure, out,
Well i'm not better than this, guy Or i'm better
than this, guy SO i should be getting offered. This

(01:02:54):
But i'm not getting off for. This so this Is
let me stay WHERE i am and. See once you
go into the, portal it's very hard to go back
because coaches don't think you're coming, back and they move.
On they give your spot to something That's that's exactly, Right,
Jabelle that's exactly. Right and SO i just think what
we want to do at THE, nabc we want to

(01:03:14):
do a couple of. Things we want we want to
have more of a voice for the coaches who are
dealing with these student athletes in the room when these
decisions are, making because we can help alleviate some of
these unintended consequences that happen that we could easily have
fixed if we were in the room or at least
brought to folks. Attention and then the second thing is

(01:03:38):
we want to be a part of the. Solution we
think we have some decent ideas for solutions to all
of this where everybody can all. Win but there need
to be some. Rules AND i understand that the NCAA's
rules have gotten them sued, now so they're very leary
on what to. Do BUT i believe the The Coaches,

(01:04:01):
association the coaches have a lot of institutional knowledge that
would help solve these. Problems you, know and we and you,
know it's really interesting because we the coaches have been
asked to do THE nc DOUBLE a comes a call
them when they need our help and when they need our.
Health to talk to legislators in D c or our

(01:04:21):
legislators in our home. States they'll listen to, us they
won't listen to THE nc DOUBLE. A so that's what
we're fighting. For AND i just THINK i and the
last Thing i'll say is the game, changes the life.
Changes our coaches are going to be. Fine they'll they'll
adapt to whatever rules you give. Them but they're trying

(01:04:44):
To they're trying to figure out how we can still
be influential and a positively influential to our student. Athletes
so when they, leave they feel like they have a
place to come back. To the transfer portal is going
to make it where our student athletes. Won't they won't
what's going to be their. Home when you, know you

(01:05:05):
go back To Michigan, state you feel pretty good about.
THAT i go back To, PRINCETON i feel really good about.
That but IF i had gone to four different, schools
which one AM i gonna feel good about?

Speaker 2 (01:05:15):
Now of, course the natural pushback is that coaches have
freedom of, movement and we see it all the time
where coaches get to take whatever job they.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
Want they don't care about.

Speaker 2 (01:05:25):
How they, leave what shape they want to leave a program.
In so why the pushback.

Speaker 5 (01:05:31):
Is some, coaches some. Coaches some coaches feel yell not.
All but What i'll say to, that And i'm all
for them to be able to move. AROUND i just
think that if you're going to have a move around
and get, paid then they should have contracts just like we.
DO i don't there is nothing wrong with, that and

(01:05:53):
that was one of the things we were talking about
at the beginning of all of. Us if you're gonna
let them, move then let's just figure out what the?
Contract what the? What what do they? Want do you
want to stay at our school for one? Year, okay
and here are the you gotta go to, class you
got to go to, treatment you gotta do, this you
gotta do. That and after one year you could. Leave

(01:06:13):
you want to be three, years, great we'll sign you
for three. Years and if you go for three years
and you want to leave before then you have a,
buyout just like we have a. BUYOUT i want to
make it even. STEVEN i think it should be even.
Steven AND i think most of our coaches are feeling
that way. Too but part of the contract is you
have to go to, class you have to have your

(01:06:35):
progress toward, degree you have to you have to do
whatever you can to come out of here being college
educated because most of you aren't going to be pros
because the pros aren't getting AN. Il the pros are
getting a contract in THE. Nba you're getting AN. Il
you're not a pro yet when.

Speaker 2 (01:06:52):
You look, overall it's just the mentality of today's players
because we're having you, know as you put, it pay for,
play WHICH i would agree that that's kind of what it.
Is right now you have that and then it has
and as we mentioned earlier about HOW aau culture is totally.
Different you, know anybody's been paying attention to THE, nba

(01:07:13):
they should see the last six MVPs have all been
international players and seeing Where american basketball culture. Is is
this a good thing or a bad?

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
THING i, mean we just had Multiple.

Speaker 2 (01:07:26):
French players taken in the top six in THE NBA
Nba draft and there's been some players who have said it,
loudly some have whispered it, that you, Know american basketball.

Speaker 1 (01:07:37):
Is kind of fighting for its life a little. Bit
so what are you what's your take on?

Speaker 5 (01:07:42):
That. Issue my take on that is it's hard for
me not to agree given What i'm seeing now That
i've stepped back from coaching And i'm looking at the whole,
picture Because, jamelle what what what What i'm Seeing there's
a couple of dynamics at work. Here, first the youth

(01:08:03):
sports industry is a multi billion dollar industry, Now so
what you have is you have way too many people
in the business of training your kid to be a college.
Player there's not enough raw materials out, there, right and

(01:08:26):
we've gone away from basketball being a grassroots sport or
an inner city. Sport it is now a middle class.
Sport so you can't even be on the radar from
a raw materials and development standpoint unless you have parents
who can afford lessons and nutrition and all these youth

(01:08:46):
basketball tournaments that cost tens of thousands of. Dollars and
the second thing is those are all you're training to
play in these games to get highlight. Tapes and what
the difference is between where we used to be and
where international basketball. Is back in the, day we had

(01:09:08):
way more practices than we had. Games now we have
way more games than we have, practices and you can't
develop that. Way that's my. Opinion that's a lot of coaches.
Opinion but now we're seeing the empirical data coming in the.
Draft and the Way europe does it is they grab
their best players and they have them practice with pros
and they have way more. Practice And i'll tell you

(01:09:30):
from back when forty years, ago WHEN i was playing In,
europe you had two days on every day except for
the day of a. Game you practiced in the morning
and played a. Game you practiced all the, time and
that's how you got. Better and that's why college was
always viewed as a great stepping stone FOR nba players

(01:09:50):
because you had four days of practice every week and
then you had. Games, now because of the way youth
basketball is coming. Along you, Know i've got a fourteen
year old and twelve year. Old Now i've got two older,
kids are two younger. Kids my two younger kids are
in the youth basketball. System they have games every, weekend
and they play six or eight games on a weekend

(01:10:12):
and practice twice a Week Monday wednesday Or Tuesday. Thursday
it's not enough, development and you don't develop playing in the.

Speaker 2 (01:10:23):
Games so looking at this this, culture do you anticipate
as we move forward that or is there fear that
Really american basketball players will become they'll be far fewer
of them in THE nba than what we see, now
or would they just be different.

Speaker 5 (01:10:41):
THAT i think they'll be. DIFFERENT i think because there's
going to always be. Those see THE nba only needs
that Those they really only need the sixty guys they
draft every year in the two. Rounds so you got
to find the sixty best players in the country every.
Year that'll be easier to do over here because we

(01:11:02):
have way more people playing, basket so they'll still Be
but what you'll what you'll see is what you spoke of,
earlier the influx of the international, guys the skill, level
the attention to. Detail when it comes to the you,
know top eight who are, playing it'll be interesting to
watch how that. Goes like those bottom guys who are

(01:11:23):
at the end of the, bench they can fill them
up With american players from college who are will stick
around for a year or two the two way, contracts
and then they'll get they'll get the next group coming.
In they can go in and. Out but the guys
who are playing and competing for, championships it'll be really
interesting to see how Long american basketball can compete with

(01:11:43):
These european folks who come. IN i, mean you, know
you look At. Jokic he is my favorite player to
watch because he does everything with so so much ease
against guys who are supremely more attic than he. Is
and it's almost like a, joke but it reminds me

(01:12:04):
of what we used to do At. Princeton we just
were just fundamentally better basketball. Players we just didn't have
the athleticism that these other schools. Had and at we're
getting to a point where people are figuring out how
to meld the. Two and so where DO i see this.
Going it'll be interesting because just like we used to

(01:12:25):
send coaches over To europe back of the, day whoever
we sent back in the day to teach them, this
it picked. UP i think you're going to see more
coaches from over there come over here and try and.
RETOOL i think THE nba is trying to do that
right now with their. Academies they're trying to get more
development at the lower level to teach them at a

(01:12:46):
younger level how important practice is and how important development.
Is and, NOW i mean just fifteen years, ago you
didn't hear people talking about player development the way you
hear them talking about it. Now and it's because we're
behind in player. Development we've got we can run and
jump and dunk and and and look good on the,

(01:13:06):
metrics but when it comes to playing the, game we're
losing our.

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
FOOTING i want to ask you BEFORE i let you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:12):
GO i got two political questions actually that this is
a sports and politics, podcast right.

Speaker 5 (01:13:18):
Yeah, yeah and my, first my first sports and. Politics
they go to you.

Speaker 2 (01:13:24):
Know it's like ham than, jelly despite the fact that
people try to pretend.

Speaker 5 (01:13:30):
Otherwise people try, people they go kicking and screaming in
the opposite. Direction, Right they don't don't know politics in
my sports all.

Speaker 2 (01:13:40):
Over the, PLACE i was like the, bonement you buy
a ticket to, it get everywhere it is politics because
that stadium was funded by the.

Speaker 1 (01:13:45):
Taxpayers more than likely that's where it. Is That's have
you ever considered running for public?

Speaker 4 (01:13:51):
Office?

Speaker 5 (01:13:52):
NO i have. Not it's so. Funny our family gets
to ask that question so many times. Now my sister
gives and, whatever all the stuff that's going on, now
and it's so funny because we only got into this. Now,
now don't get me. Wrong my. Parents my dad was
a precinct captain In, chicago but that's because he worked

(01:14:13):
for the city Of. Chicago when you, work are you
have a city, Job you're expected to go out and
get people to vote and donate things like. That never
was a, politician but. Participated made sure we grew up
knowing that we had to. Vote we. Gotta he would
take us when he went to, vote he'd take us
to the polling, place show us how it was. Done

(01:14:34):
and so when WHEN i turned eighteen AND i could,
vote it was like a big. Deal it was a
big deal in our, house and we all four went
and my dad went in with me and he just
he helped me get. Through it was like a big.
Deal we went out to dinner. Afterwards it was. Crazy
but we Have i've never ever thought about being a,

(01:14:56):
politician and we never you, know it gets. BACK i,
KNOW i keep sounding like a broken, record but it gets.
By my mom and dad would always, say when you're a,
politician that's when you have to think about what other
people think. Of and they always taught us not to
worry about what other people think. Of, now that might

(01:15:19):
make a good, politician but it would turn you off
to being a, politician and that's WHERE i. AM i
JUST i just THINK i don't have the temperament for.
It AND i know my. Sister my sister likes to
be very frank and say what's going. On that doesn't
make a good. Politician you have to be able to,
say you have to have be able to have some

(01:15:41):
nuance to. It NOW i have more, nuance but it's
just not interesting to me much. More what's more interesting
to me is catching these young folks at a at
an early age and pouring in as much AS i
can THAT i got From frasier And Marian, robinson because you,
know those two changed my. LIFE i, MEAN i would

(01:16:01):
have never thought about going To. Princeton if it was for,
THEM i would have gone to. Somewhere it was giving
me a basketball, scholarship, RIGHT i would have never been
able To and Then princeton allows you to take all
these crazy jobs That i've taken and be able to
turn myself into WHAT i was able to turn myself
into with the, confidence with the intellectual confidence of being

(01:16:22):
able to. Compete. Right it's just So i'm more focused
on sort of the helping others who might want to do,
that but not for.

Speaker 4 (01:16:34):
Me not for.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
Me, now the perspective you, have it's because you guys
grew up in the same. House that sounds like something
that might have been a, factor and why the Former
First lady won't Run and to, ME i Do i'll
just say, quickly my perspective is like a lot of
times when her name is brought, up despite the fact
she has said numerous times she does Not i'm, clear

(01:16:58):
no interest in being.

Speaker 1 (01:16:59):
There it's a bit like loving the backup.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
Quarterback like y'all say this, now but we all, know
given the level of, scrutiny all the things she went
through as the First, lady you all make it LIKE
i think people have a bit of revisionist history about
what that is actually like in.

Speaker 1 (01:17:17):
Practice but that being, said my final political version for
where you get out. Here have you ever tried to
convince her to run for? President? No, no, No.

Speaker 5 (01:17:27):
And so here's how this. Goes this is how it
went in our. Household, right she Met barack and he
just happened to be a politician or want to be a.
Politican he wasn't a politician where we met, him and
he but he aspired to be a. Politician and he
never made it a. Secret and so when he started

(01:17:49):
running and, winning my sister had a little bit of
an attitude AND i was, like hold, up now you
AND i are brother and. Sister you're my closest. Friend
i'm gonna look out for. You BUT i gotta tell
you in these, relationships he's been upfront the whole. Time
you just didn't think he would win or be. Good
and now you can't be pissed at him because he's

(01:18:11):
good at what he. Does that would be like my
wife being pissed That i'm a good coach and she
didn't want me to be a. Coach she didn't like,
coaches and she thought for a, minute she's, like, okay
should and then and so then we get involved in
this whole. Thing only because she met. Him he has
to talk her into letting him run for. President run for.

(01:18:31):
President it's like, what you can't say? No but he
was like me with the, kids asking about going to
be a, coach and oh, man he might it wouldn't have.
Worked so he you know what he. Did he, Went he's, Like,
craig can you talk to your? Mom and because he
knew my, mom, well he's a, politician he knows how

(01:18:54):
to work the. Angles AND i was, like, oh good,
idea and so what we we We that's how my
mom ended up going to The White house because she we, said,
look we my sister wanted her daughters to be raised
like she was raised and LIKE i was raising my
kids like my dad and mom raised. Us low, key

(01:19:14):
focus on, academics hard, work don't worry about what other
people are. Thinking not on front. Street and she's going
on the front is to front, streets, right so we
we we get we get this all. Going he wins
that you got, that you, know two years of running
and then eight years in The White. House every time

(01:19:36):
people ask, her she, says, NO i, KNOW i get.
It it's a it's a hard. NOTE i would bet
every every CENT i have on the fact that she wouldn't.
Run AND i just went all the BETS i went.
On because everybody thinks they're going to talk her into.
Running it ain't gonna. Happen it is not anybody.

Speaker 1 (01:19:54):
Ever come close to.

Speaker 5 (01:19:56):
Do BUT i, mean you read my sister's, book you
probably know my whole. Family EVEN i can't talk her
in the, STUFF i can talk. HER i can give
her some. Counsel but if she doesn't want to do,
something she ain't doing. It AND i don't blame, HER
i don't blame. You she's been like that since she

(01:20:17):
was four years. Old she the toughest personality in our.
Family and you when you give her two things to choose,
from you better want both of them to, happen because
she liable to choose the one you don't. Want so
it's nowhere near close and it's It's AND i applaud
her for that BECAUSE i think she can get more

(01:20:37):
done outside of The White. House she's got such a
platform and people really listen to. Her and like you, Said,
jamelle you being a black woman and being in the,
media you saw all the stuff all it was such mean.
Stuff and you know, what what's so funny is people are, like, Hey,
craig how do you put up with all this stuff they're?

(01:20:59):
Saying And i'm, LIKE i go back once, again it doesn't.
Matter they don't know. Her it doesn't bother. Me it's
like when people said bad things about me as a.
Coach you know who you, are we know who we.
Are i'm not worried about. That but it's a, lot
and it's a lot when you have little children, too

(01:21:20):
that you have to sort of bring up this. Way
AND i just think she's done such a great job at.

Speaker 1 (01:21:24):
It and you, know, YEAH i wouldn't sign up for that.

Speaker 5 (01:21:27):
Again oh so last. Thing, SEE i know you're a movie, buff,
RIGHT i, know AND i love that And i'm a
big wire. Fan but you know your Movies? Gladiator did
you See?

Speaker 1 (01:21:41):
Gladiator of COURSE a thousand?

Speaker 5 (01:21:42):
Times of course you love And gladiator is one of
those movies when it's, on you turn, it you'll catch
any part of right and then you watched it to the. End,
well then you remember the part When caesar goes To Russell,
krutch To Maximum, suppers To maximus and he wants them

(01:22:02):
to Be, caesar, right And maximus, SAYS i can't Be,
caesar And caesar, says that's why you have to be season. Now,
see but my sister doesn't Watch. Gladiators, no she. Ain't
she Ain't.

Speaker 2 (01:22:18):
Caesar but you know we see this often, though is
that the people who should one are the ones who
are never interested in Right.

Speaker 5 (01:22:27):
And, see see you can't be too thirsty for that?
Position are you too thirsty for? It it ain't for?
You and and see all these people who want, it
they're just a little too thirsty in my. Opinion So
i'll leave it with. That i'll leave you with.

Speaker 2 (01:22:40):
That, Well, GREG i just want to thank you for
taking some time out to talk a little hoops and Especially,
uh you, know with everything you have going, ON i
really appreciate your. Time and can't you know everybody tell
everybody how they can check out ways to?

Speaker 5 (01:22:55):
Win you, can you can Catch ways To win on
any way you get your. Podcast we are here for
the long. Term Coach cal is gonna be with US
uh and now in his new position At, arkansas he's
having a blast doing. This and, Again ways To win
is a podcast that shares the lessons that we have

(01:23:18):
all learned in the sports arena and how you can
apply them in the regular world even if you are
not a sports. Fan and it's some really good.

Speaker 2 (01:23:29):
STUFF i love the show, description which is on court
wisdom to solve your off court. Problems yeah all, right
with people start asking you off for dating, Advice i'm just,
saying you, know.

Speaker 5 (01:23:42):
And we have some tips to that, too BECAUSE i
always told my PLAYERS i always do want to. Play
nothing good happens after, midnight and even if it's. Good
even if it's, good it's gonna turn out to be.
Bad so we're ready for the date.

Speaker 2 (01:23:58):
Advice all, right that's a tough, sale eighteen or twenty
two year old, crowdfit But god bless you pretty Sure?

Speaker 1 (01:24:03):
Ryan all, right, Everybody greig is getting out of.

Speaker 2 (01:24:06):
Here we got more to. Come we'll go and to
take another break and we'll be right, back all, right
BEFORE i close out another episode Of. Politics time now
for this week's viewer slash listener, question which comes from
A lot Of day bar, HOPE i set that, right all, Right,

(01:24:27):
oh A lot Of day, says, Hello, jamil and congrats
on your new and much needed podcast. Outlet my question
is what has happened to the black athlete who stood
for social causes like our elders did back in the.
Day Colin kaepernick made his position, known and he was
black balled because of, it but he heroically made his
stance known. Nonetheless SO i think here's what we have

(01:24:49):
to accept is that what athlete activism looks like now
is very different than what it used to look. Like,
because of, course you're alluding to Maybe Jim brown And
Muhammad ali And Wilma rudolph AND.

Speaker 1 (01:25:00):
Althea gibson And Arthur.

Speaker 2 (01:25:01):
ASH i think the money has certainly changed and influenced
whether athletes feel comfortable and empowered enough to say certain
things in these. Spaces BUT i think twenty twenty was
a real turning. Point AND i think even what happened
To Colin kaepernick was a real turning point because a
lot of athletes saw what happened to, him and on
some end you could argue that it was maybe discouraging

(01:25:23):
for the athletes who maybe wanted to speak, up but
they saw how it cost him his career and they
decided against. It BUT i think it was more people
encouraged by it than discouraged by. It and of COURSE
i think in twenty twenty that level of athlete activism was.
Incredible it was really at its. HEIGHT i THINK covid

(01:25:45):
had a lot to do with, it because you had
THE nba and THE wnba both in, bubbles and that
is rare because rarely do leagues that size you get
all the players in one, area and so they were
able to kind of mobilize in a different. Way you
saw there was a game stoppage or refusal to play
after what happened To Jacob. Blake now it's a question

(01:26:07):
of what will athlete activism look like in this stage
Of america because now we have a polarizing president who
will be returning to. OFFICE a lot of black athletes
made him know how they feel about him before during
the first, presidency and so you wonder if there will
be that same energy there to keep. FIGHTING i wish
it weren't so reactive because a lot of times we

(01:26:30):
see athletes who are often responding to things that have
happened on a wider, scale responding to something Like Trayvon
martin or you know what happened To Sondra bland or
any number of cases From George floyd To Eric, garner
like they're always, responding and SO i would like to
see more proactive behavior from, Athletes but you, know we

(01:26:51):
have to be fair about.

Speaker 1 (01:26:52):
It just because they.

Speaker 2 (01:26:53):
Have platforms doesn't mean they're able or willing to be
the voice for these.

Speaker 1 (01:26:57):
Issues you.

Speaker 2 (01:26:59):
KNOW i think there's a reason why there's only certain
athletes who can speak to sort of these larger social
justice issues that are that are, happening BECAUSE i don't,
think you, know everybody is equipped to do, that and
SO i think what has to happen when there is
an athlete who does believe and supports a cause and
it's vocal about that, cause it's important that you show
that support because understand that other athletes are watching, too

(01:27:23):
and if they sense that it is polarizing or creates,
BACKLASH i think it just discourages them from having and
finding their. Voice SO i still think that's, there that
voice you speak. OF i just think it's very different
now because so much about sports has kind of changed.
Overall SO i try not to be too tough on,

(01:27:45):
athletes BUT i do recognize, that you, know they could
do certainly a lot of good with their, platforms especially
speaking out about. Things you know that most vulnerable people
don't get an opportunity to have that big of a.
Megaphone so thank you for your, question and HOPE i
gave you somewhat of a coherent. Answer, now if you

(01:28:08):
would like to ask me a, question you can email
me your question or send me a video with your.
Question but if you send me a, video make sure
it's thirty seconds or. Less send your questions to spolitics
twenty twenty four at gmail dot. Com That's politics twenty
twenty four at gmail dot.

Speaker 1 (01:28:23):
Com that's s po l t I.

Speaker 2 (01:28:26):
Cs also make sure You Followspolitics pod On instagram at
spolitics pod and on. TikTok a new episode Of spolitics
drops Every. Thursday it's available wherever you get your, podcasts
and also On. iHeart this Is politics where sports and
politics don't.

Speaker 1 (01:28:42):
Just, mix they.

Speaker 2 (01:28:43):
Matter spolitics is the production Of iHeart podcast And The Unbothered.
Network i'm your Host Jamel. Hill executive producer Is Taylor.
Schakog Lucas hymen Is head Of audio and executive. Producer
Megan armstrong is associate. Producer original music For politics provided
By Kyle viz from WIZ fx