Ep 14: The Politics of Perseverance - Featuring Taylor Townsend

This week in Jemele’s opening filibuster, Jemele addresses whether the NFL’s Rooney Rule — their version of DEI for coaches and front office personnel — should be abolished. Her guest this week is tennis pro Taylor Townsend, who recently won the Australian Open doubles championship. Taylor shares what prompted her to begin a tennis career, how she navigated some of the early obstacles in her career, which included being body shamed. Taylor also explains how she juggles motherhood and professional tennis, and the ups and down that come along with financing her tennis career. In the final segment, Jemele answers a question from social media about rappers Nelly and Snoop Dogg performing during Donald Trump’s inauguration festivities.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's up everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to politics and I heard
podcast and unbothered production.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Time to get spolitical.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
It's been twenty two years since the NFL adopted the
Rooney Rule, and with so many corporations go aside when
it comes to their diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives, now
seems like an appropriate time to check in on the
impact of the Rooney Rule. First, let's start with why
the Rooney Rule was even created, because it seems like
whenever we have a conversation about why any measure is
adopted to correct systemic inequity, people never paint the full

(00:42):
picture about the origin story. In two thousand and two,
the late Johnny Cochrane, who famously got oj Simpson acquitted
for double murder, and civil rights attorney Cyrus Mary, who
won huge discrimination lawsuits against Texaco and Coca Cola. They
threatened to sue the NFL for racial discrimination. Now, what
drove Cochrane and Mary to threaten the NFL with the
lawsuit was the firings of Tony Dungee, who was then

(01:04):
the coach of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and Dennis Green,
who was fired even though he had made the playoffs
eight of nine seasons as head coach of the Minnesota Vikings.

Speaker 3 (01:14):
The Bears are who we thought they were. Now, that's
why we took the damn field. Now, if you want
to crown them, they crowned her ass. But they are
who we thought they were, and we got about the hook.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Thanks. Now, I'm sorry if you mentioned Dennis Green. It's
like you gotta play that clip the awkward Fanks coach.
It just kills me every time. Anyway, The firings of
both Dungee and Green drew some raised eyebrows. When Dungee
was let go, the Bucks were fifty four and forty
two in his six seasons in Tampa, during which the
Bucks went to the playoffs four times, including appearing in

(01:52):
the nineteen ninety nine NFC Championship Game. Now, before Dungee
became the coach, the Bucks had only made the playoffs
three times in seasons, and as a franchise, had a
thirty percent win percentage with the championship roster. The Bucks
won the Super Bowl the season after Dungee was fired
with John Grutin, who during his seven seasons in Tampa
only made the playoffs twice after winning the Super Bowl

(02:15):
and finished with a sixty to fifty.

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Seven overall record.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Green meanwhile guided the Vikings to two appearances in the
NFC Championship four division titles, and they only missed the
playoffs twice in his ten seasons. Now Green also was
only the second black coach in NFL history. Now attorneys
Cochrane and Mary They saw these firings as emblematic of
a deeper systemic problem in the NFL. In nineteen twenty one,
Fritz Poller became the NFL's first black head coach, only

(02:39):
it wasn't known as the NFL then, but the American
Professional Football Association. It would be sixty eight years before
the NFL had another black head coach, Artchell, who took
over for the Raiders in nineteen eighty nine. When the
Roomy Rule was adopted in two thousand and three, the
NFL only had five black.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Coaches in its history.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Since the Roomy rule was adopted roughly twenty two years ago,
there have been one hundred and thirty nine head coaches
in the NFL, and only twenty six haven't been white.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
Now, considering how.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Long it took the NFL to get its first black
coach in the modern era, and that entering this season
there were nine minority coaches. You could make an argument
that the Rooney rule has kind of sort of made
some progress, But as we've seen through this most recent
hiring cycle, and by no means what was this the
first year this happened, the Rooney rule also puts minority

(03:27):
coaches and owners in awkward positions. It also in some
ways degrades minority coaches who are just looking to be
given a fair shot. Now, since this current administration is
insistent on weaponizing DEI and dragging us back to the
days of whites only, should the Rooney rule be the
next casualty? Is it time for it to go? Let's

(03:49):
ask the important question. Is the lack of black and
minority coaches an issue of race? Let me give you
the definition of systemic racism. According to Merriam Webster, it
means the oppression of a racial group to the advantage
of another, as perpetuated by inequity within interconnected systems such
as political, economic, and social systems. In twenty twenty two,

(04:10):
the Washington Post did a special investigative report called how
the NFL blocks Black coaches. It is a thorough and
comprehensive report back by data. Some of the conclusions drawn
from this report are these, black coaches tend to perform
about as well as white coaches, but while white candidates
are offered a vast and diverse set of roots to

(04:30):
the league stop coaching jobs, black coaches face a much
narrower set of paths. They have had to serve significantly
longer as mid level assistants, are more likely to be
given interim jobs than full time ones, and are held
to a higher standard when it comes to keeping their jobs.
Since nineteen ninety, black coaches have been twice as likely
as others to be fired after leading a team to

(04:51):
a regular season record of five hundred or better. Now,
I'm sure, as I'm relaying this data, some of you
are riding fast into the comments section to say, it's
not about color rays, it's about the best person for
the job. Well, was it about the best person for
the job? When the NFL went almost seventy years without
a black head coach. In the twenty years that passed
after the Rooney Rule, only eleven percent of the head

(05:14):
coaches hired were black. So does that mean all the
white guys were simply just smarter. Let's not forget the
history of the NFL is filled with examples of the
league being in lockstep with systemic racism. In nineteen thirty four,
George Preston Marshall, the owner of the Washington football team,
and by the way, remembering why I'm avoiding using their

(05:35):
old nickname another hint. Anyway, George Preston Marshall executed his
secret plan to ban black players from the league. It's
a history the NFL probably doesn't love to talk about
because Marshall didn't act alone. He convinced other prominent NFL
families to join the band, and some of those families
still own NFL teams today, the Mars who owned the Giants,

(05:56):
and wouldn't you know, also the Boonies. This isn't to
say that you can't atone for a racist pass, but
how much has the NFL really atoned. There are still
five NFL franchises that have never had a permanent black
head coach. We witnessed Colin Kaepernick having his entire career
destroyed because he took a knee during the national Anthem
to protest against racial injustice. Meanwhile, Nazi salutes by the

(06:21):
de facto president, totally cool. It was just in twenty
twenty one that the NFL agreed to ban race norming,
a practice the league willingly engaged in to deny black retirees'
access to the NFL's multi billion dollar concussion settlement. Race
norming is the practice of assuming that black players have
lower cognitive abilities. So if a former black player is

(06:42):
presumed to have a lower cognitive ability, then it is
concluded he has been impaired less due to playing football.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Kind of fucked up, isn't it. Now?

Speaker 2 (06:52):
Remember, in this same league, it was accepted that black
players were not smart enough to play quarterback and could
not be the leader of men. That same also existed
when it came to black coaches. But it wasn't just
this undercurrent of systemic racism that minority coaches are up against.

Speaker 1 (07:09):
It's also nepotism.

Speaker 2 (07:11):
In twenty twenty two, there were seven hundred and seventeen
on field coaches in the NFL, and at least ninety
three of those coaches, or thirteen percent of them, had
our father, son, or brother who was a current or
former NFL head coach. Seventy six percent of those family
connections were white USA Today Sports analyzed seventy nine father
son connections and they found nearly half of the sons

(07:31):
got their first NFL jobs on the same staffs as
their father. Now, I think you can guess the race
of those sons and fathers. This past hiring cycle, we
saw examples of NFL teams engaging in sham interviews to
meet Rooney Rule requirements, which mandates that teams interview two
external minority candidates for a head coaching position and one

(07:51):
external candidate or a coordinator position. To satisfy the Rooney rules,
several teams interviewed black candidates that they had no intr
in hiring. The Cowboys, for example, hire Matt Eberflus. They
recently fired Chicago Bear's head coach for their defensive coordinator position,
and even though there were reports that said Eberflus was
their guy, they couldn't make the hire official.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Until they interviewed a minority candidate.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
Now inner Chicago Bears secondary coach Andre Curtis, who interviewed
with Dallas and allowed them to meet the Rooney rule criterion. Now,
if you're Andre Curtis, do you still interview even though
you know you aren't getting the job now. Some would
say he should do it just to get an idea
of what these head coaching interviews are like. Some would
counter and say, why play the token. But the problem

(08:39):
isn't the rule. The problem is that there has been
no real punishment for violating the Rooney Rule, at least
not a punishment that would make teams and owners think
twice about not taking the process seriously. In two thousand
and three, the Detroit Lions were fined two hundred thousand
dollars for violating the Rooney rule because they didn't interview
a minority candidate before they hireed Steve Marrucci. The Lions

(09:01):
didn't lose any draft picks, and today they're the only
team that has ever been punished behind the Rooney rule.
Former NFL Players Union president D Smith pointed out in
a piece for Yale Law Policy and Review, the Rooney
Rule isn't a rule, but merely a suggestion because the
NFL has no outside entity that determines punishment and owners

(09:22):
simply don't bear any of the consequences. Smith wrote fine
should start at five million and escalate for individuals and
clubs who violated the adopted system. The reality is that
teams do not care about draft picks or minor finds
as punishment for violating league guidelines. The proof is that
we still have consistent and repeated violation of the Rooney
rule process and have not achieved the Roony rules goal.

(09:45):
The NFL uses significant finds to police player conduct both
on and off the field, claiming that these finds promote
uniformity and protect the NFL product. It is ironic that
the league has not adopted a similar zero tolerance fine
structure when it comes to achieving a fair and inclusive workplace.

Speaker 4 (10:03):
Nah.

Speaker 2 (10:03):
I know many people think you can't legislate behavior or fairness,
but in this country that's the only way any sort
of progress has ever been made. People have never decided
out of the goodness of their heart to adopt equality
as a practice. Look no further than the Civil War
and the Civil Rights movement. It always has been by
fours and through a painful process. Considering our willingness historically

(10:26):
to legislate inequality, it seems we should keep that same
energy when it comes to correcting inequality.

Speaker 1 (10:33):
I'm Jamelle Hill, and I approve this message.

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Coming up next on politics now, I don't want to
pat myself on the back for the good timing award.
But I'm about to pat myself on the back for
the good timing award. When I recorded this interview with
today's guest, she had not yet won the Australian Open
Devil's title.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
Now she has.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
For her winning it is just a testament to her
incredible talent and strength. She went through a lot as
a young tennis pro, including body shaming as a woman
of color, the path ten and this hasn't been easy
for her, and she'll share how she's persevered to become
not only a great player, but one of the most
important and distinct voices in the sport. Coming up next
on politics, Taylor Downson. All right, Taylor, I am going

(11:21):
to start this podcast with a question I ask every guest,
and that is, can you name a athlete or a
sports moment that made you love sports?

Speaker 4 (11:34):
Oh? Yeah, I think it was. It was several, but
a big iconic moment for me because I never played
any other sports. So an iconic moment for me was
watching Serena come out on Arthur ash Stadium night match
and she wore the denim skirt with the boot and

(12:01):
like there were her shoes that were boots, and then
the boots unzipped and then she just had her sneakers on.
And I just thought that was like the coolest thing,
you know, just being able first of all, having someone
who's playing a sport the way that I was, that
looked like me, that was unapologetically black, you know, wearing braids,

(12:23):
you know, constantly were talked about at the early parts
of their career, with wearing beats in their hair and
all of the things. But and then to take like
fashion risks like that, I thought that was just like
the coolest thing because I've never really fit inside of
a box, right, So it's like that was just like
total rebel moment. Rebel in the tennis world. I don't care,

(12:43):
I'm going to do my own thing. And I just
thought that was like so cool because it showed me that, like,
you could be whatever you want to be. You can
do whatever you want. But it definitely helps that you're
winning and that you're kicking everyone's ass and you're number one,
you know, it's a lot easier for people to like
shut up and just kind of like deal with it,
you know. So that for me, that was a moment

(13:04):
where it kind of made me really love the ability
to not only like play the game and be someone
of color who's played the game, but then also like
it gave me the confidence to know that I can
really express myself in the game.

Speaker 2 (13:19):
Let's take people through your origin story a little bit
as it relates to tennis.

Speaker 1 (13:23):
How did you get introduced to the game?

Speaker 4 (13:25):
So my mom played until she was eight months pregnant
with me, and ironically enough, I played until the day
before I went to the hospital with my son. So
I guess I.

Speaker 1 (13:36):
Was gonna say, there's kind of a theme there, there's
a pattern.

Speaker 4 (13:39):
Yes, And so it was. It was very interesting because
I played, she played until she was eight months pregnant
with me. I was always around the game, so for me,
it was something that I was used to. My mom
and my first coach, his wife, played doubles together, so

(14:00):
I was always around the game, even when I was
a kid and we didn't want to place like, we
didn't want to go out there, so we would just
be at the park, who was always a round court.
So for me, it was just like kind of a
natural evolution. And then my sister started taking lessons, and
I'm the kind of person where it's like, if you're

(14:21):
going to do it, I want to do it. And
if I can't do it, you can't do it. So uh,
for me, it was very much yeah, no, we're if you.
If you're doing it, I'm going to do it too.
And so she was taking lessons and I was behind
the court and I would throw balls at her because
I was like, no, this is mine, Like I'm doing

(14:43):
it too, right. And so my coach he was like,
get off the court, get off the court. No, wouldn't
do it. So he kicked me off the court that day,
came back, she said another lesson, came back, did the
same thing. Someone put someone give her a racket. Please,
somebody give her a racket, like she is getting on
our nerves. We don't just please someone help us out. So,

(15:07):
long story short, that's how it all started. And here
we are. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
So you sort of BULLI you bullied your way in,
which is in some respects would be sort of a
tiny bit of a theme for your career. Now, you
left home, I believe, at fourteen years old to pursue
this career in tennis. How did you arrive at that
decision that you needed to do something like that, or
you and your family, because I know you didn't make

(15:37):
this as an individual decision, because that's when you think
about how we all were fourteen years old. That's a
pretty monumentous decision. So how did you kind of get
there to say, hey, I got to do this if
I want to be really good and really a professional
in this sport.

Speaker 4 (15:52):
Yeah. So, I mean I had a lot of opportunities
of like when I was coming up, you know, my
coach was a very avid like you need to play
every week. So we played tons of tournaments, you know,
local tournaments to state tournaments, southern tournaments, and worked our
way from each level. And you know, I realized that

(16:17):
a lot of people were in Florida or California at
the time, where the two big places. Due to the weather,
I hadn't been invited several times to USTA camp so
out in California, out down in Florida, and you know,
I just felt like, you know, it was a good opportunity.

(16:38):
I actually had gotten accepted into the program when I
was thirteen, So I was in seventh grade, and three
days before I was supposed to leave to go, I
told my family, I'm not ready. I had all my
stuff packed. I had all of my close packed bens
stacked up and everything, and I was just like, I'm
just not ready yet. And so I finished out middle school.
So I did my finished out eighth grade year, and

(16:59):
then I was like, okay, now I'm ready experienced high
school for a month, which was like the most fun
that I've had. People like, did you go to school?
I was like, yeah, for a month, and but it
was it was it was one of the things where
it's like in my head, I was like, Okay, I
know that if this is something that I want to pursue,
like I want to try, and I knew that financially,

(17:20):
my parents weren't going to be able to give me
the opportunities to travel to Australia, into France and to
all of the places even where the Junior Grand Slams are.
We're talking Australia, Paris, London, and in New York, right,
So even if you take those four tournaments, that's a
lot of traveling. It's a lot of money. And so
I knew going down to the USCA, I said, you know,

(17:42):
I'm going to use their finances to be able to
give me opportunities to play and to train, to get
proper structure and just kind of like fully dive into
you know, the game because up until I was fourteen,
you know, I was doing tennis in school, so I
was doing school and then would have my left and
everything you know in the afternoons after school. Always education

(18:05):
was a huge priority for my for my parents, so
that was never that was never an option, you know,
to not be educated and to not do well in school.
So you know, that's why it's kind of like crazy
to me sometimes where I'm like, Okay, these kids at
like six are in academies and doing the things that
I was doing at fourteen, they're doing it at six
and seven, you know, which is which is kind of

(18:27):
crazy to me, but hey whatever, Yeah, So that was
that was really the mentality in the mindset. I just
really wanted to give myself an opportunity to see how
far I could go with like being fully supported financially
and to be able to not have to worry about
structure and organization of like I'll have a coach, I'll
have fitness, I'll have everything that I need to hopefully,

(18:49):
you know, pan out to become a professional. And ironically enough,
a lot of the people that I was with in
that age range, the guys, a majority of them went pro.
Not all of them, but a majority of them. And
on the female side, a lot of the people when
I was living on campus, a lot of them went

(19:10):
to college and are very successful in their own ways. So,
you know, it wasn't always to say all be all
that being in that program was going to ensure that
that you went pro and that you were going to
be successful, But it did give us an opportunity to
travel and to you know, have everything that we needed
to be as professional as possible.

Speaker 2 (19:30):
Now, you're from the South side of Chicago, and when
people think about the tennis world, you know, we know
what that world looks like financially Racially, people don't aren't
in tennis that come from where you come from typically,
So for the people out there who are like sort
of unfamiliar with what this grind looks like. As you're
coming up and you already mentioned the expense, like what

(19:53):
all goes into that when you're trying to become a
professional tennis player and have become a professional tenant player
and you know you may not have your resources don't
look like how a lot of people you're playing against,
how what theirs looks like?

Speaker 1 (20:07):
What is that part of it like?

Speaker 4 (20:09):
It's really difficult. This is probably one of the toughest
sports because with tennis, you it's really hard to practice
on your own. So in football you can go on
a field and run routes. Right, in basketball, you can
go and find a hoop and you can just shoot, shoot, shoot, shoot.
You can practice, but if you don't have a wall,

(20:32):
it's really difficult to practice and do the things that
you that you need to do and get the feel
where the ball's leaving your racket, it's coming back, it's
you know, doing all the things. A racket costs minimum
one hundred to two hundred and fifty dollars just one.
A cannon balls is twelve dollars for three balls, you know,
one can. Court time is usually on the cheap side,

(20:59):
forty dollars an hour, you know. Then we're talking about
privates that are usually one hundred bucks an hour, eighty
bucks an hour, and you do those couple times a day,
and then you have maybe have group lessons and that's
maybe two hundred three hundred bucks a week, you know,

(21:20):
so it's and then that's training, right then we have travel,
so you have to drive or fly to tournaments. Tournament
usually have forty to eighty dollars entry fees. And there's
been a time where I played a professional tournament. In
twenty seventeen, I played a pro tournament and I made

(21:44):
sixty six dollars minus forty dollars entry fee I drove
to the tournament. So I had twenty six dollars that
I left to a professional tournament with and I was like,
this can't even fill up my gas tape.

Speaker 2 (21:56):
Yeah, I was gonna say like, yeah, so you basically
you can't.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
That was a net loss, Like, oh you big.

Speaker 4 (22:04):
Time, right, totally, totally. So this is just like, these
are all of the expenses that you have to try
and give yourself these opportunities. Right now, we're talking about
if a tournament is a week long, you're talking about hotel, food, travel, gas,
if you drove all of the things. So there are
so many things that add up, and you could potentially

(22:28):
you can lose out on a lot, you know, and
in juniors, your parents are fronting this constantly until I mean,
if you unless you turn pro or unless you you know,
sign to an agency and you get a signing bonus
or whatever the case may be. But that's the only
way that you're getting or you have sponsors, just the
only way you're getting like upfront money. But if you

(22:49):
don't have that, you have to find a way to
fut that bill until you start making money. And I
can tell you for one hundred percent. In fact, for me,
for years, I was in the negative. I could tell you.
Twenty nineteen was the first time in my career that
I was like comfortably like okay money wise, like and

(23:11):
that's because I made the round of sixteen of the
US Open, which gave me a really nice, you know,
cushion chunk of money. But up until then, it was
constantly like, all right, I gotta this, this what's coming out,
and I gotta do this, and I gotta travel here,
and you know, being very you know, I don't want
to say frugal, because I still am, but you know,

(23:34):
very aware and cognizant of ebbs and flows of the finances. Right,
So it's it's really hard. This sport is like so
it's a it's one of the things that a lot
of people don't talk about because it's like they the
narrative of like equal prize money. And they talk about
the prize money and the money that people make to

(23:55):
like at the top, but you don't understand the pyramid
and the trickle down. And it's kind of crazy because
the pyramids actually like this, when you go to the top,
the people at the top get the most. So the
people at the top who have sponsors, who have all
these things, who are typically going deep in tournaments, so
making a lot of prize money, they get a lot,

(24:17):
like they get hotels for free, you know, cars, transportation
for free. And then as you move down where you're
making less money, you get the least, whereas like you
really have to pay and really finance and put the
bill for like everything that you're doing in your career
to try and get to this level, to try and

(24:39):
make it to the middle, and then you know, continue
to grow. So you know, I feel like I'm very
fortunate because I've experienced this game on every level, like
from the very bottom. Like I like for weeks at
a time, months at a time, being in the red right,
I may I one year. I want three matches in

(25:00):
a year, So you can imagine like how much money
because I played the entire year, I played a whole season,
so you can imagine how much money was going out
but not a lot coming in. So I've been at
that place where I've been here and worked my way
up and went back down, you know, worked my way
through every single level. So I have a true appreciation

(25:22):
for like every every level, I have an understanding and
I can relate to every person on every level. But
then also I have a true appreciation and gratitude like
where I am because I'm just like I know where
I came from and I know that like it was
nothing except hard work and like mental grind and like

(25:42):
making a decision and a choice to be like okay,
I'm going to change this. That got me out of
those places. You know. So this sport is like it
is so so so difficult, and you know it requires
it's very it's almost impossible to do on your own.
So it's really hard.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
With that being said though, knowing that you're when you're
in that situation and you know you're spending more money
than you're actually bringing in as a player, mentally, how
do you deal with that? How does that impact how
you play?

Speaker 4 (26:13):
I mean it was hard, but also I'm I'm the
kind of person that I thrive with chips on my shoulder.
So there were times where when let me say this,
when I got to the place in my mind where
I'm like, I'm not doing this anymore, Like I'm I
don't like where I'm at. I'm gonna make a change.

(26:36):
When I knew that and I went to it was like, nah,
I gotta, I gotta, I gotta win. When I made
those decisions, then it was like it was a fuel,
Like it was a like a fire where it's like, okay, Taylor,
like I'm not gonna let this person take food off
my plate. I'm not gonna let you take money out
of my pocket, you know. And even when I was
coming back, I was like, no, you're taking money out

(26:57):
of my son's pocket, out of you know, food out
of his place. So it's like I had to find
those motivational factors of like how to turn you know,
the situation to something where it's like fuel for me,
because if you look at it and if you're aware
of it constantly, it's so like it's such a downer
or it was just like what the hell am I
going to do? And I'm so grateful because I've had

(27:19):
people in my corner. Like my coach was like, Okay,
I'll pay for my flights, I'll pay for this, I'll
pay for that, and then like when you get let's
just say, when we go to a Grand Slam and
you know you were going to make X amount, then
we'll just you can reimburse me, you know. So like
I had people where it's like would even foot the
bill at the beginning to hopefully, you know, later down

(27:41):
the road. So it's it's also just about like being
able to have good people around you that understand because
if not, like it's it's so hard, it's so hard, like, yeah,
it's almost impossible.

Speaker 2 (27:54):
So at what point did you feel like you were
really good that like, hey, I you know a lot
of people start sports and but there becomes a moment
when you realize, like I'm built a little different than
everybody else.

Speaker 1 (28:07):
What moment was that for you or what time was
that for you?

Speaker 4 (28:10):
Well, it's it's really interesting because while the things were happening,
I didn't notice it. But now when I was removed
and I like actually was able to kind of deconstruct things,
I'm like, oh my gosh, Like it's literally been like
me versus me literally and I'm thinking that I'm like
fighting everything and everyone and like, but now that I

(28:33):
was able to look, I think, like, there's nobody on
my love. There was nobody doing what I was doing.
Like not a single number one junior in thirty something
years that didn't happen. Like you were winning this, this, this, this, this, this,
nobody else was doing that. You want two Grand Slams
out of four in a year, Nobody else did that,
Like you want Orange Bowl, Easter Bowl, this, Like as
a junior, this that, this, that. But I was always

(28:54):
trying to like prove myself and be like is this
good enough? Is this good enough? Is this good enough?
So in the moment and at the time I didn't
see I was just like, Okay, what's next, what's next?
What's next? And it's so crazy how those experiences shaped
like who I am now. Because when I won Wimbledon,

(29:15):
I threw a trophy party, not because I wanted to
party and because like I didn't have time to party,
but I did it because I wanted to have my
friends and my family with me to force me to
acknowledge the accomplishment that I made. Taylor, you just won
Wimbledon double singles I don't care, you just want you
can look and you can open up this green case

(29:36):
and there is a trophy which your name on it
that says wimbleding, Like that is a big deal. And
because of my experiences, I would have just been like, Okay,
well I have to do this and this and this
and this, and like okay, that was cool, that was fun,
but what's next? And I forced myself to not do
that because of like my experiences in the past, you know,
So like the moment, I honestly didn't realize the things

(30:01):
that I've accomplished until like I'm this age and even now,
like I had to really I didn't really do it,
so it's kind of on my list of things, but
like really sit down and marinate in like the season
I had, like you did that, like you did these things,

(30:22):
you know, and like it's I realized the importance and
the value of that for me now to be able
to like fully acknowledge and embrace the things that but
then it gives me motivation for like the next, the next,
the next and next, you know, so instead of like
just being like Okay, I got do this and this
and this, like no, you accomplish this. This is how

(30:42):
you did it. Okay, how we're gonna get better. So
it's like it's a much more healthy process. But you know,
I didn't realize that I was good. You know, I
didn't realize that I was doing extraordinary things because it
wasn't celebrated, it wasn't acknowledged, it wasn't you know, it

(31:04):
wasn't really it didn't feel special. So because it didn't
feel special, like I didn't think that I was doing
anything special, and this was the environment that I was
in at all times, you know. So yeah, I don't know.
And I just actually talked about this with my coach today.
I was like, I'm the kind of person who I
have to prove it and I have to see it

(31:25):
before Like I don't see it beforehand, I have to
do it. And that tells me that I know that
it is you know what I mean. So like I'm
there's one of the things that I have to work
on because it's like a lot of the battles start here.
You have to know before you get out there and
start doing things. So it's one of the things that

(31:45):
I'm still working on to this day. I'm being honest with.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
You, well, I think that's something that a lot of
women can relate to, because, you know, I think we
are living in a society in the world that often
convincess convinces us that our worth is is more diminished,
and so you sort of become in this mindset like,
am I really good? You know, we have a little
women tend to struggle, even the most accomplished women like yourself,

(32:11):
with a lot of self doubt. I mean, this is
amazing for me to hear you say that, given that
you were number one in the world as a junior,
something that hadn't been accomplished. I believe Lindsay Davenport was
the last American before you did it. And this year,
you know, you win Wimbledon and doubles. I mean, that's
like there's points zero zeros are a one percent of
people who actually get to do that, and you are,

(32:33):
you know, sort of one of one of the fuse.
But going back to your time as a singles player,
not that that part of your career is over, but
when you were in juniors, I have to say I
was really flabbergasted because I was unaware you went through
quite a battle with the USTA regarding some body shaming

(32:53):
that they did.

Speaker 1 (32:55):
And I was not aware that they could.

Speaker 2 (32:58):
They had the authority to not fund you based off
how you were training. For those who were not aware
of the backstory, is that when you know, when you
were a junior player, despite the fact you were dominating
as a juniors player, they question your weight and they
questioned your fitness and they were able to that impacted

(33:20):
your funding and dealing with that at sixteen years old,
when a lot of us are going through a lot
of sort of different body issues, You've dealt with it
and on a very public stage. When you reflect back
on that time in your life, what is it that
you're struck by in terms of how you handle dealing
with such you know, frankly a level of public humiliation.

Speaker 4 (33:43):
Yeah. I think the thing that I'm the most proud
of is that I made the decision to control the
narrative and I made the decision to not allow everyone
else to tell my story. So I said to myself,
I'm like, Okay, this sucks, Like this is terrible. I

(34:05):
hate talking about this. It's embarrassing, Like I'm having to
talk about it on a worldwide stage, Like this is
really embarrassing, right, and it was a catalyst effect that
I didn't even know was going to happen externally and internally. Externally,
the catalyst effect was every single time that I stepped

(34:26):
on the court, that was always a topic of conversation.
So whether I was playing well, if I was playing well,
like my movement, my breathing, everything was hyper analyzed because
of how I looked. So if I lost a little weight,
or if I was not bloated from my cycle, or

(34:48):
if I seemed or appeared smaller or more fit than
people would attribute me playing well to that and the
end eternal battle that happened was I was always questioning,
looking and trying to figure out what people were saying.

(35:09):
I became aware because the thing is, it's like I've
always been a bigger girl, so like as a kid,
I wasn't aware of it, because it's just like I'm
just playing right, and if I'm playing and I'm doing
what I'm supposed to do and I'm winning, Like how
I was taught and grown up, how I grew up
was like, it doesn't matter. I'm kicking ass, So you
can say whatever you want to say. The number speaks

(35:32):
for itself, right, The trophy speak for yourself, so you
can say whatever you want, right. So that was the mentality.
But when I got older and started dealing with when
that became something that became aware of, I was like,
oh my god. So then I started trying to figure
out what people were saying. You know, social media was new,
so you know, then people having access to you worldwide

(35:58):
on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram didn't exist back, but you know, Twitter, Facebook,
all of these things, and I felt like I always
had to defend myself, you know, And it was just like, no,
it wasn't I didn't play a good match because I
just played really well, or I executed my strategy or whatever.

(36:19):
Or I broke my opponent down. No, I did it
because I was more fit. Or I lost because I
got tired. No, I didn't get tired. Maybe I was
making too many errors I was doing. This was so
it was always a tie. And so I was proud
of the way that I didn't allow the media and

(36:41):
everyone else to tell my story. I was like, no,
this is what happened, but I'm here, and I basically
consciously like redirected everyone to like, no, this is what
I'm doing now, Oh, this is what's happening. No, that's cool,
that's fine, But in the midst of it, it was
a lot that I have had to ravel because it
was like a lot of my identity. And this happens

(37:03):
a lot in sports, especially when you play and you
become you've been engulfed at such a young age, your
identity becomes wrapped up in the sport, so it's very
hard to differentiate, like you as a person versus you
as an athlete, Like that doesn't come until later, later,
where you know, hopefully later. For me, that came, that

(37:25):
divergence came when I got pregnant because like I had
to step away, Like I have never had any injuries
that took me away from the sport for more than
you know, a couple of weeks if that, you know.
The injury that I had this year pre French Open
was the first time I've ever like had to withdraw
from a tournament due to an injury, so like in

(37:45):
eleven almost twelve years on tour, So that can say something.
So that divergence didn't happen of like until I got
pregnant and I was away for almost twenty months, and
I'm like, okay, who am I Because this is not
this isn't this isn't important right now because I can't
do it. I can't play tennis. I'm not out on

(38:06):
the court. I'm not competing. I'm not playing, Like, so
this doesn't matter, so like who are you? And so
like I was proud of the way that I handled that,
and even today, like, you know, it's really cool because
a lot of people, you know, they say, oh, I
admire your strength and all this stuff, and but it
is it does take strength and it's hard, but you know,

(38:26):
it's also growth. And I think that the cool thing
is like, which is why a lot of people like
rock with me or even my fans are like stay
down because they know, like we've been following this person
from this from the time she had braces and bows
in her hair to like all the way through. So
it's like it is a true appreciation for like, just

(38:48):
the same way that I have an appreciation for where
I am, I think other people have an appreciation for
being able to see how much that I've grown and
how I've been able to maneuver through these types of situations.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
Yeah, I mean it was really remarkable to see it
in real time because I don't know that a lot
of sixteen year olds would have had the maturity, uh,
and certainly not to give voice to it on top
of that, because not only did you have to deal
with that, but you also gave voice to it and
voice to frankly, how a lot of women, and especially
black women, how their bodies are analyzed. I know Serena

(39:20):
Williams knows something about this because she went through some
of the same things with people in the media, which really,
you know, as a member of the media, is kind
of embarrassing. I was like, it ain't like we out
here all in shape and we got Yeah.

Speaker 4 (39:33):
It's like a lot of people that's talking, and it's
like you guys couldn't even you couldn't even do what
I'm doing exactly. And that was another thing that I
started having to frame where I'm just like, okay, like
you really have to stop caring about and being so
aware of what these people say. Because I literally remember
I was down in I was down in Florida and

(39:55):
I was doing my laundry and I saw something on
Twitter because I had tweeted something. I was like, I'm
so excited to go home. I hadn't been home in
ten months. So I was so excited to see my dad,
my sister, everyone, and someone was like, yeah, you're excited
to go back to your cage. You like fat monkey,
like black monkey, and just like tweet tweet tweet tweet,

(40:16):
like so one after the other after the other. After
I was like, so, Dad, I remember like in that moment,
I'm just like wow, I'm literally just talking about how
I'm excited to go see my family. And this is
the response, Taylor, you can't make everybody happy, like you can't,
Like it's impossible. It's impossible for you to think that

(40:40):
you can do things to please everyone. So and I
remember thinking, I'm like in this moment, I'm like fuck
these people. It's like literally that's what I said. I
was with it.

Speaker 1 (40:49):
I'd be like, man, yeah.

Speaker 4 (40:52):
You know, I was like I said it, I'm like,
fuck these people. And I looked at that and I
deleted tweets. I'm like, you know what, I'm done with this.
And I remember like a change where I'm just like yeah,
like and I actually did have to go through a
point where it was like I separated myself from social media,
but now I'm like, bro, like y'all can't even and
sometimes I got time. I really do. Sometimes I have

(41:15):
time because I'm just like, okay, y'all a little bit
like doing too much. But it's like I really have
gotten to the ploor where I'm just like I just
don't care, Like I know the people that's in my circle,
the people that love and care about me, and they
know who I am. What you say doesn't matter, like
and it's even worse now because it's like you got
these Internet trolls that literally sit and do this all

(41:35):
day long and like search for stuff like this is
your job, Like you have no life. So I'm out
here actually trying to do something and be someone and
putting myself out there consistently constantly, like I'm not hiding
in the shadows. It could have been easy for me
to go no, no, no, no, I'm not doing like
I'm front facing. So it's like that takes courage, that

(41:56):
takes bravery. And there was no body positivity movement, so
like how it is now where there's body positivity inclusion,
like inclusion in commercials, clothing brands, all of these different
type of stuff. I don't identify as a plus sized woman.
I'm just bigger than what everyone else is, and like

(42:20):
I have a different body shape. I have a different
body type. I was looking at my doubles partner's legs
and my legs and I'm like, I as my coach,
I said, oh, I likeingly that big. Well, her legs
is super small. I was like, I know, it's not that.
Like it was like this and like this. I was like,
oh my god. It was a picture room standing side

(42:41):
by side. I was like, okay, this was like wimbled
in this. Yall was like, okay, I know that it's
not like that. So it was no, it was no
body positivity movement during that time where it was just
like this was some first of all, something I was
talked about, something that was accepted, where it was just
like there was a mental acceptance of like especially in sport,

(43:04):
of like different shapes and sizes that can still be effective,
you know, not saying that like I can't be better,
get better, be more in shape, get more fit, get
more ripped up. Of course I can, yes, But so
I'm not naive to the fact of like I know
the areas in which I need to progress, but that

(43:25):
doesn't make me any less or worse or whatever the
case may be. So it was just a lot of
things where it's just like during and in the times,
like we're talking ten years ago, like we're in the time.
These things didn't no, not even twelve years ago, like anger, yeah,
twelve thirteen years ago, Like these topics didn't exist. So

(43:46):
it was something where I felt like I was kind
of like having to forge like through on my own
and you know, doing it at sixteen, like as a teenager,
all types of things to change, and like it was
just it was crazy time. It's crazy work. But honestly
I appreciate it because it honestly it's made me like
who I am. And it also again just to kind

(44:08):
of circle back, taught me how to deal with tough
shit like from a public front facing standpoint. So I
was like, OK, if I can deal with that or
people call me fat this that, and the third like
I can deal with whatever else. Like the other stuff
is is like this.

Speaker 2 (44:25):
Well, I have a lot more I want to get
to with you, because I know we only have a
short amount of talent here.

Speaker 1 (44:31):
Got to ask you of course with your time with
Cardi B.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
So that is coming up after the break and we'll
have more with Taylor Townsend. I want to quickly go
back to something that you said in your answer when
I was asking about the body shaming that you went to.

Speaker 1 (44:53):
You know, it's so funny.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
I'm so glad that you pointed out the fact that
it wasn't that you were ever big. It's just that
maybe compared to other tennis player body just looks different.

Speaker 1 (45:01):
Because I swear to.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
God, when I go back and watch your highlights and
remembering you at that time, I'm like, wait a minute,
what like they consider her to be out of shape
and girls? So when you go back, because I mean
I do that too, just with normal pictures from like
high school or college when I thought I was like.

Speaker 1 (45:19):
Big, and I'm like, what was I thinking?

Speaker 4 (45:21):
Man?

Speaker 2 (45:22):
When you look back at those images and even maybe
some of your highlights or whatever, are you thinking like
what what were they on?

Speaker 4 (45:29):
Like, girl, I haven't looked at that stuff for so long. Yeah,
I don't even go back and look because I just know.
I'm like, you are a kid. You are a child.
Like you are. I know as a grown woman, how
I feel and what happens to my body when my
cycle comes. So this is like times ten as a

(45:53):
child when you're going through puberty, like I'm had braces,
face changing, Like I'm like, you're a child, Likes I
don't even go back and look at that stuff. Like
I've seen old pictures and there are times when I'm
like why people using these pictures, Like I don't even
look like that. But it's like I don't even go back.

(46:15):
But if I do it, or if I see it
and it comes up, I'm just like no. Like whatever
they was talking about, should I pay money to get
back I.

Speaker 1 (46:25):
Look at an old picture. I said the same thing.

Speaker 2 (46:27):
I'm like, you know what if I go back to
that junior year in college, Man, I do that in a.

Speaker 4 (46:31):
Minute here complaining. I'm just like, I gotta work ten
times harder now because it's a little slower burn. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (46:39):
Well, and that's a great transition because I wanted to
ask you, I mean your your your son is now
three years old.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
You know you you play.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
Pregnant and you said up until the day before you
get to go to the hospital. So you know, given
all things that you had gone through in your career,
and we see that female athletes when it comes to
you know, pregnancy and post pregnancy. You know, they admitted
there was just a lot of things they had to
get over that they didn't anticipate. The postpartum looks different

(47:08):
for you, so overall, like for your experience, particularly in
post pregnancy, how did you handle putting the pressure on
yourself to you know, because we live in snapback culture,
how did you handle that aspect of it in terms
of dealing with your body and the changes it was
going through.

Speaker 4 (47:27):
You know what's crazy, I suffer more from the snapback
thing now than I did back then because I look
at people, like six months back on court Plan, I
was like, how wow, I was still expanding in six months,
Like I was like what like? But also this whole

(47:54):
situation like so I actually look at that because I'm
just like I. But then it's another thing where I'm like,
they got different bodies, they got different you know, genetics
everything like that. I don't know the situation with how
they breastfed, right. I breastfed my son for a year,
so that automatically is different boobs out to here. You know,

(48:18):
like in six months, I was a stay at home
I'm for seven months straight, Like, I did not pick
up a racket, go to the gym or nothing until
my son. I didn't start going to the gym until
my son was seven months because like, but I made
that decision for myself because I was like, I want
to know what it's like to be a mom. I
don't want to put the pressure on myself to have
to go do anything, Like I want to have a

(48:41):
solid foundation with my son, understand him, so that because
I understand my mom, like I can't do this alone,
Like I can't think that I can take him to
practice and practice for two or three hours with no interruptions.
It's not possible. So I know I need help. So
I'm going to have to have someone that comes in,

(49:03):
and I want to be able to explain to this
person this is the tendencies, this is how he acts,
this is what to look for, da da da da,
And if there's something outside of that that they tell me,
then I know that there's something outside of that, you know.
So I wanted to that was more important to me
than anything in the world. So and it worked out

(49:23):
well for me, Like that's okay, But yeah, the snapback
culture is crazy, like it's it's so like to me,
it's unrealistic. But what gives me the motivation and the
strength is that the work that I had to put
into just like just step back out on this sport.
Like I said, I made a proclamation to myself that

(49:46):
I said, I will not return back to play until
unless I'm better than I was when I was leaving.
If I'm not better, I'm not coming back until I'm better.
So I made that proclamation to myself. I didn't know
how long I was going to take. I didn't know
how like what that looked like. I said that and
it sounded great, but I didn't know what that meant
until I was in it. I was like, oh my god,

(50:08):
oh wow, there's a lot of work. But so that's
honestly what gives me the strength and like to know,
like I had to lose almost one hundred pounds, like
a lot of people don't know that. Like I was huge,
and you know, breastfeeding, you know, having to I was.
I was waking up at four in the morning to

(50:29):
pump before fitness, after working out, pump again, pump before practice.
You know, like doing all of these things like I
had to. It was work. It was hard work, and
so it gives me so much strength and motivation because
I'm like, I know what I did, So it's like
there's where it's like it's easy for people on the

(50:51):
outside to kind of like diminish things that you've done
based on their opinions and things. But I'm like, with
this particular situation, I know what I went through, I
know what I did, I know the work that I
put in. I know that had a whole day with
a baby and I had to find time while he's
napping or when he's down in this to get my

(51:13):
little workouts in and do what I had to do
and starve myself and you know all of the things.
Like so there's nothing because there was nobody around. There
was no glitz, there was no glamour, there was no
observation outside of myself and the people close to me.
So I'm like, I know what I did to be here,
So like that fuels me because I know, like, first

(51:37):
of all, it's it's I'm grateful to be on the
tennis court. I'm grateful to be here because like even
for me, I had a fantastic pregnancy emergency sea section
out of nowhere. Didn't expect that, didn't whatever, but it
had to happen.

Speaker 2 (51:51):
So it's like, how did that impact your recovery? Well, yeah,
I think this assumption that if you get a C
section is all good. Oh no, they heard from many
about this real process, Like.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
What was what was that?

Speaker 4 (52:03):
It was so hard because I've never had surgery before,
so like I couldn't get up on my own, I
couldn't sit down by myself. I couldn't sit on the toilet,
I couldn't want my ass so I'm like I couldn't
shower on my own, Like for two weeks, I didn't
go up or down my steps, so my sister had
to bring everything to me up. Like it was really

(52:23):
really hard psychologically as well, because I'm a very self
I'm an independent person, you know, so for me psychologically,
like I can't tell how many times I broke down
because it's just like I don't like asking for help,
So even psychologically, how many times I had to be
like can you help me? Can you help me? Can
you help me? Then I started feeling guilty for how

(52:44):
many times I had why do you go to the bathroom? Now?
I need to be again? You know, It's just like
it was hard, like psychologically for somebody who is independent,
who's been doing things on their own since they're fourteen
years old, like to have to ask to do everything.
It is very difficult. And even with that, then it
was just like, okay, I remember going outside. Finally cool,

(53:09):
three weeks, finally can go outside. I wasn't scared to
go up or down the steps because they were like,
be careful with that because you can rip the stitches,
and then that's a whole other problem. No, thank you.
So finally go outside, all right, take the baby on
the walk. Okay. I made it to the stop side
at the end of the block that's three houses, one,

(53:29):
two three. I was like, shit, I'm tired. And it
was like I turned around, turned tollaid. Damn, I gotta
go back. I gotta make it back. You went down,
you gotta get back. Oh okay, let me take a
great hold on.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
Like, even with all that you've gone through though and
recovery and all of that, how would you say, though,
that motherhood has made you a better tennis player.

Speaker 4 (53:55):
Oh, it's it's completely changed me. It's first of all,
I was giving me a different level of motor because
I have something outside of myself. You know. It's just
like before it was just like, yeah, this is my goal,
Like this is what I want. I want right but
now you have someone else depending on you, and that's
a completely different feeling. That's completely different motivation. Also, a

(54:19):
big thing that motherhood has changed is the fact that
losses or wins aren't so you know more so losses
like losses aren't so bad because I know it's not
the end of the world. Before it was like I
was sold for two days, three days, like just feeling bad,

(54:42):
you know whatever. But now it's like I can call
and be like, hey, mommy, you're doing great. You did
so good, you look so nice. And Aj is like
he's so like in touch with his feelings and emotions,
so he'll just like be like, mommy, I love you.
So it's like, even with that, it gives me the

(55:04):
ability to kind of like not sit in things so long.
You can feel it, but it's just like, okay, I
can move. It helped me to move on faster, and
it's super special because just like I know that like
even when I'm done. That was another scary thing. I
didn't know what I was going to do when I

(55:24):
was done playing tennis, because again, identity and sense of
self is so wrapped up and you're on court and
who you are in this world right, So I didn't know.
But then now I'm just like, it has given me
the motivation to be like, Okay, there's so many things
that I want to do, and you know, even looking
forward to just being home and spending time with my child,

(55:45):
like that's enough for me, you know. So it's definitely
changed my perspective in terms of like what's important, you know,
And I realized I'm not saying that tennis is less important,
but it's just.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
Not everybody whole identity is wrapped up into it, maybe
like it was before. One kind of question before we
get to the messy question of the podcast, what Yes,
Gotta ask you a messy question? So, how would you
characterize or rate the support because this is also something

(56:17):
that a lot of fans and people who are just
casual observers don't know about. There's quite a few women
who are mothers on the tour, So where is the
tour in terms of supporting mothers on the tour?

Speaker 1 (56:29):
Like what how would you characterize that support?

Speaker 4 (56:32):
I think it's so I would characterize it as a
work in progress, like like any like all sports. Really,
until you had those people who did it, it was
one of the things where it's like women had to choose.
If I'm want a family, then I have to stop,
I have to retire. Like coming back wasn't really think.

(56:56):
You know, Kim Kleiser's was the first one to have
kids come back win a slam, and it was I
remember that, and I remember watching and when she brought
her daughter on this on the court like on ash
during her trophy ceremony, I'm like, well, that's so cool,
like imagine I couldn't imagine back think so I was
so young. And also I didn't, to be honest, I

(57:17):
didn't want kids. So it's kind of like a crazy
thing where like so maternal. I did not want kids.
I was like, when I'm done playing, I wouldn't be
able to have my time to do what I want,
like you know, we travel, we do all this stuff,
Like I just want to freedom, right. So I think
that it's a work in progress. Now that it's happening
more and more, I think that it's something where they

(57:41):
can't deny it. And you know, so they have you know,
daycares or they call them crushes at the tennis sites
where you can you know, basically bring your kid and
leave them for the day and you know, they have
helped to be able to you maybe give room preferences

(58:02):
or bigger room options if you're going to have your
child with you. So it's like let's just say you
have to pay way way way more for a suite
or for you know whatever, like maybe there's more options
to have those available if you're bringing your child with you.
You know, I'm an executive member of the PTOPA, and
that's a big, you know, kind of focus for them

(58:27):
is being able to help represent you know, all athletes
and the athletes being moms as well. So you know,
there's not a great system for insurance. You know, there's
not a great system for making sure that you're taken
care of and if it's fine for the player, but
if you want to add someone as expensive as hell,
you know. So it's like if you're traveling internationally with

(58:49):
a child, you want to make sure that they're covered
if anything were to go wrong. So there's definitely parts
that are being addressed, but there are a lot of
other things that I feel like can be better. And
you know, whether it be financial support, whether it be

(59:13):
whatever the case may be, where it's like you know
their specific situation because being a being getting pregnant is
like a unique scenario and situation to only women and
to like this small subset of people. Right, So it's
not something that you can fake or you know, you
can fake an injury or say I'm hurt to get

(59:34):
time off, right, This is not something like that. So
you know, I feel like there can be other things
or other initiatives put in place to kind of help
bring make it easier, you know, for me, Like personally,
I travel a lot on my own because I don't
feel like it's easy or there's a ease about traveling

(59:58):
with a child, you know. And again, and like I said,
I'm very fortunate because I have an amazing I have help,
and you know it's not free, but it's fantastic. But
you know, even with that, I got a grant while
I was pregnant or like right after I got pregnant
with or right after I had AJ from the Women's
Sports Foundation for twenty thousand and it was through an

(01:00:23):
initiative with Alison Felix and the Women's Sports Foundation, And
you know, I put that towards my nanny, and I
was just like this was so helpful because it's like,
you know, I'm not playing, I'm not making any money.
I don't have sponsors, so it's just like I didn't
have any residual income. So to be able to receive
something like that was like huge for me because that

(01:00:44):
was able to take a lot off of my plate
for at least a little bit of top for some months. Right.
So even having initiatives putting him in like that through
our organizations or through sponsorships of the organizations like that
be really helpful because so many things fall on us
as athletes and as players, Like there's very few things

(01:01:06):
that are taken care of by the tournaments, by the tours,
So to be able to kind of like offset some
of those costs that you that you have when you're
away from the game for however long, then that could
be really helpful. And also it can help to not
feel like I have to rush to get back.

Speaker 1 (01:01:23):
On tour, you know.

Speaker 4 (01:01:26):
So it can give you a little bit more peace
of mind of knowing that I can kind of like
take my time and slow step if that's what the
player or the athlete wants, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:01:36):
So now to the messy question of the podcast. This
is where all the controversy happens.

Speaker 4 (01:01:41):
I love it right.

Speaker 1 (01:01:43):
We all love a little mess.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
So you I think it was last year you you
taught Carti B a little bit about tennis or how
to play at a little bit of tennis. On her
show Carti Tries where she tries different things. But I
think it is a brilliant idea. And how would you
rate Cardi B's athleticism.

Speaker 4 (01:02:04):
I'm gonna say I tried.

Speaker 2 (01:02:08):
Because I saw some footage and I was like, hmmm, yeah,
Tallada Rapper.

Speaker 1 (01:02:13):
Don't know if athleticism and sports is her thing?

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
No, definitely not. She's not an athlete. It was really interesting.
First I didn't know she was left handed, so that
was cool. Another thing is like I so when she
was about to fall out and die, I was like,
She's like, I need to sit down. So she went
on the bench. Is like when you guys saw her

(01:02:36):
like lay down and she was like who Like she
literally was laying down and we took like a fifteen
minute break. But I found out that she had was
in the studio like all night, so she had came
from the studio, didn't sleep, came from the studio to
the set to shoot, so she was like exhausted. So
I was just like, okay, Like I get it because
I had the whole list. I was like, we about
to do running drills, we about to do lunges and

(01:02:59):
all this type of stuff, right, let's like just throw
it all in. So yeah, I definitely saw. I'm like, okay,
like sports is not her thing, Normani, she's an athlete.
And then when I talked to her, I'm like, what
did you do? She's like, yeah, did gymnastis and I
played this and I was like, Okay, that makes sense
because the things that I was telling her, like her

(01:03:20):
body awareness and her hand eye corners, like she was
able to get it fast. And one of the things
I was the most impressive was with the serve because
that's not easy, like to be able to time like
the ball going up, coming down and then when you
hit and like she got it quick. So I was
just like, okay, like she's an athlete, CARTI No, We're
gonna stick to music and dancing and making sure that

(01:03:45):
she keep telling us her hair routine because she got
fabulous inches. We need that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:52):
That's a little surprising because I've seen I've never seen
her in person, been seeing her perform on stage like
that requires some athletics.

Speaker 4 (01:04:00):
Yeah, I asked her that because so I'm gonna tell you,
I could be anger. Sometimes I would just ask things
that come to mind because I was like, something's not
making sense to me. I say, you sing and dance
and do all of this stuff for hours? How can
you not? How do not work out? Well, it's just

(01:04:22):
different how how how sway? So I was like, I
didn't quite understand that, but I guess it is just
a different type of thing, and you know, it's it
kind of put in perspective like, okay, like just the
same way. Is this something I've been doing for years?
Like you get you can train yourself to be better

(01:04:44):
at certain things, right, so like breathing or knowing how
to do certain things like when you're performing. But I'm
like to be able to run or like do side
to side or coordinate watching something coming hitting, like it's
just you know, it's it's different. I was just like,
how do you how are you so tired?

Speaker 2 (01:05:02):
And heels and heels sometimes and like its elaborate office.
So it's really it was really very eye opening about
sometimes you have different skill sets in different areas well. Taylor,
I want to thank you so much for spending this
time with me. It's great to catch up with you
and to hear about mommyhood. And obviously this was twenty
twenty four was a great year for you. I'm sure

(01:05:23):
there's way more of that to come, more success, So
continue to keep doing what you're doing and being a
voice like you know, the way that you have advocated
for yourself and by extension, advocated for others is really
quite admirable.

Speaker 1 (01:05:34):
So I just want to thank you for spending this time.

Speaker 4 (01:05:36):
Thank you, and I have fun. It's good to see
you again after all these years. And yeah, I hope
to run into you in person sometime.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
Yeah, you're a hole grown lady. Now you're o G
on the tennis score.

Speaker 4 (01:05:47):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:05:49):
I was like, I'm really that old time you are?

Speaker 2 (01:05:54):
You really are so many I had a conversation with
Sloan Steve was about that same thing.

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
She like, they looking at me like, oh you the
o G.

Speaker 4 (01:06:01):
You the icon tell us what to do. She's like,
but I'm just thirty, like, hey, hey Auntie, hold on.
You're like hold on now, great Auntie. I was.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
Wet to the same age.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Wait my mind, one more segment to go, and you
guys know what that means I got questions to answer
up next, your viewer slash listener questions, and I have
plenty of answers coming up next. On the final segment
of Spota, diis.

Speaker 4 (01:06:43):
All right, people.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
Time to close out this week's episode with an audience
question from Kyra Stewart six sixty six not that that
isn't spooky, who asked this question via Instagram. Kira asked,
why haven't you addressed Nelly and Snoop's performers at the
Crypto pre inauguration so by now, I'm sure you all
know that Snoop and Nelly both performed for Trump's pre
inauguration festivities last week, and people, as in our people

(01:07:06):
were understandably upset and disappointed, and I think a lot
of people were just hurt. Now, I live in Los
Angeles and I can personally attest that Snoop does a
lot of work in our community. This isn't a question
about whether or not Snoop loves black people or if
he's ashamed of being black. He does love black people
and he is not ashamed of being black. This is
a question of whether Snoop and Nelly understood that in

(01:07:27):
this moment when the community they are both so connected
to is trying to process what this presidency means and
understanding that our community, our elders, our young people, our
working class people will be disproportionately impacted by a president
who is moving the way this one is moving. We
need people in their positions to hold the line. Hey, Nellie, listen.

(01:07:47):
I admire and respect the military as well, but showing
your love of country doesn't mean blind loyalty. And if
you feel that strongly about the military, you can always
go perform at any military base you Performing there both
of you is almost a sanction in a high five
to this president. And no disrespect to Sojio boy, which
means I'm about to disrespect soldier boy, but I expect
him to be the rapper and take a check from Trump.

(01:08:09):
That wasn't my expectation of smooth and melo. Thank you,
Kyra for your question. As for the rest of you,
if you would like to ask me a question, I'm
at Jamail Hill across all social media platforms Twitter, Instagram,
Bluesty and threads, please use the hashtags politics. You also
have the option of emailing me at Politics twenty twenty
four at gmail dot com. You can also send me

(01:08:31):
a video of your question, but please make sure it's
thirty seconds or less. Don't forget to follow and subscribe
to Politics on iHeart and follow spolitics pod on Instagram
and TikTok.

Speaker 1 (01:08:41):
It's still exist, doesn't it anyways?

Speaker 2 (01:08:43):
Politics is spelled s po l I Tics. A new
episode of Politics drops every Thursday on iHeart Podcasts or
wherever you get your podcasts. This is politics where sports
and politics don't just mix, they Matterlitics is a production
of iHeart podcast and The Unbothered Network. I'm your host

(01:09:04):
Jamel Hill. Executive producer is Taylor Chakoigne. Lucas Hyman is
head of Audio and executive producer. Megan Armstrong is associate producer.
Original music First Politics provided by Kyle Visk from wiz
FX