Ep 25: The Politics of Civil Disobedience - Featuring Chris Kluwe - Spolitics

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's up everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to politics and I heard
podcast and unbothered production.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Time to get spolitical.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
After a ten to three season and an appearance in
the college football playoffs last season, a lot of Tennessee
fans were understandably looking forward to seeing if this year's
Tennessee football team could improve on what they did in
twenty twenty four. Now, part of that excitement was because
of quarterback Nico Iamali Lava, who threw nineteen touchdowns and
just five interceptions last season and showed enough flashes for

(00:39):
Balls fans to think he could perhaps take them to
the next level. But that ship has sailed, That bridge
has been blown up and been burned to a crisp
because the Balls and Nico are parted ways over what
is now a brutal reality in.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Big time college athletics. Now.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
Last week, Nico essentially staged a holdout because he and
his hands reportedly felt as if his expected two point
two million dollar salary for this season was not consistent
with the industry standard. Supposedly, Nico's camp was seeking a
salary of four million, since that's what Carson Beck supposedly
got for transferring to Miami and Darian Mensa got from
leaving for Duke Now after Nico's skip practice and wasn't

(01:19):
in contact with the team at all. Tennessee had two options.
Option one, run Nico his money. Option two, tell Nico,
let the door knob hit you with a good lord,
splitch you. Here's the option Tennessee head coach Josh Haipel
chose instead.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Today's landscape of college football, it's different than what it
has been, and you know, so unfortunate, you know, just
the situation and where we're at with Nico. I want
to thank him for everything that he's done since he's
gotten here, you know, as a recruit, to who he
was as a player and how he competed inside of

(01:57):
the building, and so a great appreciation for that side
of it. Obviously, we're moving forward as a program without him.
You know, I said it to the guys today, there's
no one that's bigger than the power tea and that
includes me or.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
Is the great urban philosopher Nino Brown once said.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
And I wouldn't want to be a cold game, but
let me give you a little backstory on Nico, which
explains why Tennessee responded the way that they did see.
When Nico was a high school junior, Tennessee's nil collective
Spire Sports broke him off with a four year deal
that was worth eight million dollars, which included three hundred
and fifty grand up front, and he got paid during

(02:39):
his senior year of high school. Boy was bawling now
when he saw that his position was becoming more valuable,
he wanted more money. Now, those of us who have
been through contract negotiations understand that you might sign a
deal on Tuesday and by Thursday, somebody else could be
making more money than you. And certainly in the NFL,
players hold out all the time trying to get new deals.

(03:02):
Sometimes it works out, like when Emmitt Smith held out
from the Cowboys after Dallas won.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Its first Super Bowl.

Speaker 2 (03:08):
The Cowboys tried to stand on business and replace Smith
with a rookie, but they lost their first two games
and only.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Scored and whopping twenty six points.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
Owner Jerry Jones swallowed his pride and made Emmitt Smith
the highest paid running back in the NFL at the time.
And sometimes you get bitt in the ass and wind
up like Melvin Gordon, who in twenty nineteen was in
the last year of his rookie deal with the San
Diego Chargers.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
The Chargers put ten million per year on the table,
but Gordon passed.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
Gordon missed the first four games of the season, and
during that time Austin Eckler became the man. Not only
did Gordon not get a new deal with the Chargers,
they let him walk in the offseason. They also gave
Eckler a four year, twenty four point five million dollar deal.
Now that's business, And as my friend and former colleague
Jim Rome once told me, in negotiations, sometimes you're the

(03:56):
hammer and sometimes you're the nail. You got to have
an enough self awareness to know which one you are
in a contract negotiation.

Speaker 1 (04:05):
Clearly Nico nor his people.

Speaker 2 (04:07):
Realize that he was the nail, and now he doesn't
have much leverage. He has plummeted his value because he's
shown a lack of commitment and at this stage in
his career, he's not so dynamic that a school is
simply going to pay top dollar and ignore all these
red flags. But even though Nico deserves his share of
the blame for handling things so unprofessionally, we should never

(04:30):
forget the reason major college sports are in such chaos
right now is because the NCAA was more interested in
preserving a system of complete inequity than building the infrastructure
for a fair system that included the players. Now, their
blatant greed gave the players all the ammunition they needed
to kick their ass in court, which they have done

(04:52):
quite successfully to topple this entire house of cards. Unfortunately,
in this hyper capitalist country, it's not going to hold
up that the players who generate billions of dollars for
colleges and universities should be frozen out on cashing in
when everyone else in that same ecosystem gets to make
as much money as they possibly can. It was never

(05:14):
a fair system. The college football fans and even some
of the coaches bemoaning the state of the game are
going to have to accept the fact that this is
a business. But more importantly, the NCAA needs to accept
that too. Instead of lobbying Congress to stem the tide
that they created, the NCAA created a book filled with
hundreds of rules for players, schools, and coaches to follow.

(05:36):
So surely they can put their big brains to work
and come up with a system that protects the schools,
the players, and the sport. For example, how about some
kind of transfer system that is somewhat like what we
see in professional soccer. Instead of having mid majors and
small colleges become a feeder system for the big schools
with no recourse, make these big schools compensate these smaller

(05:59):
schools for them their time and development of players, because
if the NCAA continues down this path of resistance, they're
not only going to sink themselves, but drown all of
college sports. I'm Jamel Hill, and I approved this message.
There are some people who are simply not willing to
bend the knee, no matter the cost personally or professionally.

(06:20):
My guest today was recently arrested at a school board
meeting because he purposely engaged in what he described as
the time honored American tradition of peaceful civil disobedience. That
demonstration cost him his job as a high school football coach,
But that isn't the first time using his voice cost
him his employment, since he believes he lost his NFL

(06:41):
career for standing up for same sex marriage at a
time when people are trying to figure out what resistance
looks like.

Speaker 1 (06:47):
For them.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
It's important to hear from the people willing to put
it all on the line. Coming up next on politics,
former NFL punter Chris Klui. Chris, Before we get into
your most recent activities which got you arrested, which I

(07:11):
can't wait to get the full download from you about
everything that happened, I'm going to start by asking you
a question I ask every guest that appears on politics,
and that is name a moment or an athlete that
made you love sports.

Speaker 4 (07:23):
Ooh dang, that's a tough one because, like I always
played sports because I wanted to be that moment, right, So,
and I wasn't really a huge sports fan growing up
because I love playing video games. So whenever I have
TV time, it's like, okay, well, you know, I got
to turn on the TV. But I mean in terms
of like, like, actually, once I started learning about sports,

(07:44):
it's got to be either Muhammad Ali, you know, protesting
the Vietnam War, or Jackie Robinson probably breaking the color
barrier in baseball and then actually going to UCLA learning
Aboutkenny Washington doing the same in the NFL. So yeah,
kind of but you know, just learning this where it
could be more than just what you actually do on
the field.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Okay, moving ahead, that just you mentioned briefly like those
examples that made you love sports, and you mentioned, you know,
can you wash it in Muhammad Ali that these are
all athletes who use their platforms to speak about social
and political issues. This is something you have done consistently
throughout your career. But when was the time for you?

(08:23):
It didn't have to be one moment, but when did
you sort of realize this was how you wanted to
use your platform.

Speaker 4 (08:28):
Well, so for me, it's actually the moment where I
first started speaking out, which would be for LGBT rights,
back when I was playing for the Vikings. Because you know,
up until that point, like I had had a concept
of social justice right in that like I wanted the
world to be a fair place. I didn't want people
to you know, suffer under oppression. But I hadn't really
seen myself as like having a role to play in that.
Like I couldn't you know, envision myself as a person

(08:50):
who was out there speaking. And then I was approached
by a group of minisotes for marriage quality who asked me, hey,
you know, would you be interested in defeating this amendment?
That was going to ban same sex marriage in the
state of Minnesota. Was at that point, I was just like, oh, shoot,
like I actually do have the platform, Like I am
in a position to do something, so I need to
do it because if I ever want someone to speak
out for me, well then I got to be willing

(09:10):
to do it when it's my journ.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:13):
The NFL, I've often told people, is a leg of conformity.
I mean, that's kind of the model that's built on.
And I don't mean that negatively, but there's just a
very It's a reason why people always make parallels to
the military because of the way the NFL operates and
certainly the way they want their players to operate within
the structure of the NFL.

Speaker 1 (09:31):
So, as you were deciding that you were going to
join this fight.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
How did you broach this subject of wanting to be
a voice for marriage equality with the Vikings.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
Yeah, So I first I approached the team's legal department,
I believe it was Kevin Warren at the time, was
the head of legal for the Vikings, and talked with
him and is like, Hey, like, I want to do this,
How how do I do this? You know, without the
team thinking that like I'm doing something bad because you know,
obviously I knew it was going to be a risky
stance to take and that one of the potential consequences
would be that people would get upset and I might

(10:02):
potentially lose my job. But at the same time, I
was like, I feel, this is what we're speaking out,
and so he told me, He's like, yeah, you know,
as long as you make it clear that you're a
private citizen speaking on your own time, you're not representing
the Minnesota Vikings, then yeah, it's fine. And I stuck
to that, like everything I did was on my own dime.
But like it was, you know, I wasn't doing it
at the facility. I didn't do it during games. It
was just like, hey, Chris Clue, American citizen is concerned

(10:26):
about this, Like you should be concerned about this too. Now,
obviously it didn't work out that way. I mean I
ended up getting blacklisted from the league anyways. But yeah,
it's it was one of those things where I definitely
knew there could be consequences. I was trying to mitigate
those as much as possible. But at the end of
the day, unfortunately, the NFL is run by a bunch
of rich, old white men for the most part, and

(10:48):
they the vast majority of them, donate to Donald Trump.
They voted for Donald Trump, and they're the ones who
signed the checks. And I understand why other players don't
speak out, because you do run a very real risk
of losing her job and it is not an easy
job to get and you can't get that job anywhere else.

Speaker 2 (11:05):
When it came to you picking this particular cause, I
don't or what was sort of the reaction with your teammates,
because you know, let's be honest that when we think
about social causes that we see athletes do get involved.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
In, typically it's not marriage equality is not one of them.

Speaker 4 (11:21):
Right.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
You see racial issues, certainly other political issues, but marriage equality,
especially given what is the brand of football, that is
a rather unique one. So what how did your teammates
sort of react to you being involved in this cause?

Speaker 4 (11:39):
Yeah, So it's super interesting because at the time, the
kind of the social perception on same sex marriage was
about it was around like sixty percent four about forty
percent against. And I really saw that kind of mirrored
in kind of my interactions with my teammates, and that
about sixty percent of the guys who came up to
me were just like, hey, what we think what you're
doing is great. You know, that's awesome. Then about forty

(11:59):
percent were just like, hey, we may not necessarily agree
with you, but at the same time, you know, everyone
has the right to speak their mind, and like, yeah,
you know, that's that's fine. And I never had any
issues with anyone in the locker room, like I never
had any issues with any of the other players, because again,
it wasn't like I was in there preaching at people.
It was like, you know, if someone wanted to have
a conversation, I was more than willing to have that conversation.
But at the end of the day, we're there to

(12:20):
play football, right Like That's like, the NFL is a
very hard thing to do at a professional level, and
I was like, my focus is on making sure I
can pun a football as best as I can because
otherwise they're going to fire me. So but yeah, No,
what I thought was interesting about it was that it
really mirrored kind of the general societal, you know, view

(12:42):
of like, hey, this is what America is like. And
I think that's something people don't really understand about the NFL,
and kind of sports in general, is that even though
you see us as athletes, right like you see us
as people on the television screen doing this one specific thing,
at the end of the day, we're human beings and
we come from very broad array of you know, socio
economic backgrounds, religious backgrounds, you know, personal upbringings, and that's

(13:07):
reflected in people's views inside the locker room. It's not
just a homogenous entity.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
I've heard players, both current and former players, talk about
what that mix is like in the locker room, and
I think for a lot of us that aren't privy
to some of what you have seen in the locker room,
I guess some of us are just curious. It's like
how those conversations go, because, as you mentioned, you have
a mixture of people, different racial backgrounds, you know, different
ethnic backgrounds, social economic like, it runs across the board.

(13:36):
So when there are I've heard, in fact, one former
player even told me that that was actually the best
place to have this kind of discourse as opposed to
like out here in the civilian world, right, they tend to.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
Be much different when you try to have those conversations.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
So maybe provide some insight as to what it's like
when it comes to challenging topics, be it you know,
racism or you know, you mentioned same sex marriage, Like
what are those kinds of topics like when discussing them
in the midst of a locker room.

Speaker 4 (14:07):
Yeah, so it's actually really interesting because everyone in there
comes from a sort of shared goal right where we
all are out there doing the conditioning, like we're all
out there running half gassers, you know, we're all in
the weight room doing the really crappy parts that don't
get shown on television but that you have to do
to be a professional athlete. And everyone knows you've committed

(14:27):
yourself to this right like you put in the time,
you put in the hours. So there is that sort
of shared bond between everyone that you understand, this isn't
just someone talking out of their ass about something like
they've you know, they they've shown they can commit to something,
They've shown they understand what it takes to be great,
and so like we can have those conversations and disagree
with each other because we know, like afterwards, we're going

(14:50):
to go out on the field and we're going to
do our jobs to the best of our ability. And
you know that the person you're talking with like they
want to win, right, Like they're going to give you
their best effort. And so yeah, I think that's part
of why we're able to have those conversations because again,
like you just you've suffered through the same stuff. So
it's like, okay, well yeah, this is different, you know,

(15:10):
than what we do out on the field. But there's
there's a genuineness to the conversation to where you know,
you share something with that other person.

Speaker 2 (15:18):
Well, tell me if this is a crazy analogy or not.
In a way, I kind of liken it to marriage
because in marriage, you have to come into every every
disagreement the spirit of resolution has to be there because
a lot of times, you know what I mean, it's
like a lot of times when you're just in a
relationship that is, you know, not not leading to marriage
or you know you're not married. It's like you could

(15:40):
come in there with the intention and the mindset of
I need to win this argument, but.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
At what costs?

Speaker 2 (15:46):
Right, at marriage, you actually have to think about what
the costs At the end of the day, I got
to go to sleep with this person, right, you know,
And so maybe to that degree, where's that way in
the locker room, it's like, regardless of the different political
difference or whatever, at the end of the day, at
was some point, I'm gonna be on the field together
and everybody's try to get paid and are trying to win.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
So is that something you know? Is it? Does that
make sense as it?

Speaker 4 (16:10):
And oh yeah, yeah, no, that makes total sense. Like
I've I've been happily married to my wife for I
think like twenty some odd years now, and like we've
had some real like screaming arguments before in the past, right,
but like you said, at the end of the day,
it's we love each other. We want to spend our
lives together, so we need to figure out how to
resolve this. And so in the locker room, it's like, yeah,

(16:31):
you may get into an argument with a guy, like
I've seen dudes getting fistfights, right bright I think it
was God, I forget it was one of our running
backs threw a chair at someone. But then you know,
the next day it's like, Okay, well we got to
go out and beat the packers. So we're all on
the same page. We may not even necessarily like each

(16:55):
other today, but you know tomorrow we have to come
together as a team and we have to go out
there to succeed. And so, yeah, I think you're you're
really spot on on that in that Yet it is
a lot like a relationship in that you do have
an overwriting goal you're trying to achieve.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
You as somebody who's a heterosexual man speaking out on
behalf of same sex marriage, how do you think your voice,
you know, maybe added to that conversation because you were,
you know, somebody who technically this doesn't impact, So how
do you think your voice was able to sort of

(17:29):
kind of add to the issue overall?

Speaker 4 (17:31):
Right, So, the unfortunate reality of America that you know
has been the case for pretty much since the founding
of our country is that straight white men get listened
to more than anyone else. Like that, that really is
just the reality of America. And so there are a
lot of people out there who have been doing the work,
you know, people from the LGBTQ plus community, people you know,
from non white communities, people who have been putting in

(17:53):
the hours and putting in the time, and unfortunately, people
who look like me don't tend to listen to them,
right like, because they're like, oh, well, you know, that
doesn't affect me like you just said, or you know,
I will never see myself in that situation. But when
someone who does look like them, when someone who they
can relate to and be like, oh, that's you know,
that's a white guy playing football, Like I can picture
myself in that position, when they say the exact same thing, Now,

(18:14):
all of a sudden, it becomes important. And I wish
that wasn't the case. I wish people would listen when
other people are like, Hey, what you're doing is wrong.
You should stop doing it. But since that is the
reality we live in, it is incumbent upon those of
us with the privilege and with the power that can
say those kind of things and be listened to that
we actually do say those things that we do engage

(18:35):
those people and make them understand that. Yet, just because
this isn't affecting you personally now, that doesn't mean it
may not affect you in the future, because hey, what
if your kid grows up to be a member of
the LGBTQ plus community, Like we saw that a lot
in Republican positions during the you know, same sex marriage debate,
is that they would be firmly against it up until
the point where it personally impacted them or their family,

(18:55):
and then all of a sudden it's like, oh, yeah,
maybe maybe people should be allowed to get married, Like
maybe this is that's a good idea.

Speaker 2 (19:01):
Of course, once you decided to step out there and
support you know, marriage equality, the reaction then from the
Viking seemed to be mixed.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
I think that's probably the best way to put it.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
So, once it became apparent that the Vikings weren't completely
comfortable with you taking this position, how did it impact
how you chose to use your voice for this issue.

Speaker 4 (19:26):
Yeah, so so, And I think a key point to
point out there is that I'm not sure that it
was necessarily the issue so much as as it was
the issue plus the attention, right, because in the NFL
is real big on like, don't bring attention to us
unless it's one of our preferred things that we want
you to break attention to. Right, Certain politics are okay
to talk about in the NFL, but you know, something

(19:48):
like that. It was like, because like I initially started
working with Minnesotas for marriage quality back in the summer
of twenty twelve, so this was before the season even started,
and like I'd done some appearances. I'd done some radio
stuff and no one really cared about it because it
wasn't a big deal yet. And then I wrote the
dead Spin piece. They went super viral, and now all
of a sudden, it's like, Okay, now there's national attention

(20:09):
on this thing. Now it's becoming an issue, and so yeah,
I just I think it's unfortunate that the way the
team approached it was kind of like, we don't want
you to bring this kind of attention to the team,
whereas I was like, well, no, we need to talk
about this, and like and yeah, people are going to
ask me about it in the locker room, but when
I'm in the locker room, like I'm telling them, I'm

(20:30):
here for football. Like, if people want to interview me
away from the locker room, I'm going to talk with
them about same sex marriage because I think it's something
we're talking about, and as an American citizen, I have
the right to do so. Like, it doesn't matter what
your job is. It doesn't matter if you're an NFL player,
it doesn't matter, you know, if you're a plumber, if
you're a bus driver, a teacher, you have the First
Amendment protected right to speak your mind in a public

(20:53):
setting to your government, even if it's an unpopular viewpoint.
And I feel unfortunately a lot of people are moving
away from that.

Speaker 1 (21:01):
But Chris, you said you don't think it was the issue.

Speaker 4 (21:03):
So sorry, and then it wasn't. Like I think it
wouldn't have been as much of an issue as if
it didn't come with as much attention as it came with.
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (21:14):
Like, yeah, no, that makes sense because I mean part
of it is, like I do think it's a little
bit you know, outside looking in a little bit about
the issue. Like for example, if you know, let's say
you were still playing for the Vikings when George Floyd happens, Right,
I don't know that the league is going to have
that same reaction that they had versus how they responded,

(21:35):
or I shouldn't say the league, but let me be
very specific, the Vikings would have responded the way that
they did if you would have spoken out against what
happened to George Floyd.

Speaker 4 (21:45):
I mean, yeah, yeah, no, so yeah, I agree with
you in that there definitely there definitely were regressive elements
that did not like the issue itself. And it's actually
funny because my wife, my wife and I were talking
back when Colin Kaepernick was protesting right where she was like,
if they hadn't blacklisted you before, you definitely would have
been blacklisted there. You absolutely would have been on a knee.
I'm like, yelp. So yeah, I think I think that

(22:08):
that is the case that there are certain political issues
that the league does not want to talk about, again
because it's run by rich white men who tend to
hold fairly conservative viewpoints. So yes, I do think there
is a certain faction within the NFL that just doesn't
want it to be any sort of progressivism like associated
with the league itself.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
So and as you mentioned, you wrote about this in
Desband where you laid out exactly what led to you
being blacklisted from the league and talked about like all
these things that happened behind the scenes once you decided
that you were going to speak out on this issue.
One of the things that somewhat surprised me is Leslie Fraser,

(22:49):
who was a coach of the Vikings at the time
when you decided to do this. For those of you
who don't know, you know, he's a black head coach,
very respected, you know, one of the again one of
the league's you know, sort of best coaches who is
known for, you know, being a defensive mindy coach. You know,
he's got an extensive resume in the league.

Speaker 1 (23:04):
He was one of.

Speaker 2 (23:05):
The ones who said early on that he really didn't
want you doing this and he didn't want you to
step out and make and you know, he wasn't saying
anything against the issue. Based off what I read from
what you said, it was mostly that he was concerned
that you were going to get the type of attention
that wasn't going to be good for the team and
good for the league. How surprising was it for you

(23:29):
that Leslie Fraser took that position, because here we have
a black head coach's probably been through his own level
of struggles in terms of trying to break barriers in
this league. We know how the NFL has treated a
lot of black coaches. Were you surprised that that was
his position?

Speaker 4 (23:47):
I was a little surprised, but I also like I
understood it right, and that he is a head coach.
He is, you know, a black man as a head coach, which,
as you said, is very hard to do. I mean,
like it's especially back then, and the sense I always
got from him. Wasn't that it was about the issue
is about the fact that he just did not want
any sort of controversy to come to the team because
you know, he felt like it would blow back on him.

(24:09):
I mean, that's a fair stance to take, because yeah,
like you know that can lead to you getting fired
as a head coach. But at the same time, there's
a reason why I titled my second piece I was
fired by two cowards in a Bigot, because I think
it is a cowardly stance to take. And I'm sorry.
I know you've gone through a lot of shit. Like,
I know it's not fair to say that, but at

(24:30):
the end of the day, like you got to be
able to stand up for something right, like, especially when
it's uncomfortable or dangerous, because that's when you know it
really matters.

Speaker 2 (24:40):
So to your point about two cowards in the Bigot,
let's talk about the bigot.

Speaker 1 (24:45):
The big I don't know if I'm saying his name right,
is it Mike Prefer?

Speaker 2 (24:48):
Yeah, Mike Creefer, Mike Preefer, Like who cares about pronounce
his name right? Given all the things you'd laid down
in this piece, you know, according to you, as you
wrote is that Mike Preefer who was your position coach,
correct with the vikings, he was somebody who made it
very known that he was against gay marriage, seemed to
be quite homophobic based off what you described, and he

(25:11):
was sort of leaning into his Christian beliefs.

Speaker 1 (25:14):
As being the shield for why he felt this way.

Speaker 2 (25:17):
So knowing that this coach that you have, that is,
you know, your position coach, who is responsible for so
much in terms of like what you're playing, you know
how much you're playing and the perception of your performance
is like this person is directly responsible for this. At

(25:38):
what point did you start to get the overt indications
that he was going to be a major roleblock for
you in this scenario.

Speaker 4 (25:49):
After the first dead Spend piece with Viral, because up
to that point, like, you know, the team obviously knew
what I was doing, because you know, I'd been doing
the appearances, and like, guys would give me shit about it,
right because you know that happens in a lot room
and like, but it's it's it's really easy to tell
when someone's just trying to get a rise out of you, right,
because you know they're they're they're just talking shit versus
this person actually believes what they're saying, right, Like, it's

(26:10):
you know, there's a there's a difference in inflection, there's
a difference in tone, there's a difference in how they
actually approach what they're saying. And like, up until that
first letter went viral, I got the sense that no
one was really like saying things to me with the
intention like we don't like gay people. We don't think
this should be a case. It's more just like, oh,
we're gonna give the punter some shit because you know
he's speaking on on this. After that letter went viral,
that dynamic changed like completely between me and Preefer in

(26:33):
that like it started like just the way he was
talking about stuff, the things that he would bring up,
I'm just like, oh, crap, this is a guy who's
responsible for my job and he really does not like
what I'm doing. And so it's it's one of those
uncomfortable moments because my initial instinct right is to kind
of lash back, right to be like, no, like fuck you,
like this this is important and you should care about this.

(26:55):
But at the same time, it's like, if I can
just get through this season, hopefully it'll die down, you know,
don't make waves, everything will be okay. And and you know,
obviously I tried to follow the second path. It didn't work,
and that was where that's when I reverted to my
initial instinct where it's like, all right, then you know
it's if this is who you are, now we need
to talk about it, because again I based on everything

(27:17):
I saw, based on how my performances were recorded. Yeah,
I firmly believe I was fired from the Vikings for
my political views, not for my punning ability, and it
was It's unfortunate because like I set most of the
Vikings punning records while I was there, and like I,
you know, not to toot my own horn, but I
feel like I was pretty good at my job, and yeah,

(27:38):
it turned out the way it did. Now now that
being said, for what it's worth, I also think people
need to be given a chance to grow from their mistakes, right, Like,
it's it's one thing to be Okay, I made a mistake.
I've been a bad person. But if you can learn
from that, if you can grow from that, if you
can change your behavior, everyone deserves that chance because otherwise
how are we going to get better? Right? So I

(28:00):
have an unconfirmed report from a random person on Reddit
who said that they, you know, they personally know the
Prefer family and that according to them, that Mike has
changed his ways, that it actually really did, you know,
get to him and he understands. So I don't know
if that's true or not. I hope it's true because
I would I would hope that someone would choose to
be a better person. But yeah, I think it sucks

(28:22):
what happened, but we also needed to keep room in
our hearts for forgiveness and for giving people a second chance,
you know, to become a better person, but you don't
get a third chance.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Well, have you and Mike Prefer had any conversations since
that experience, I know we have not, Okay, And just
so people are aware that Mike Preefer is now on
Bill Belichick's staff at the University of North Carolina, I
believe also as a special teams coach. Once you were
you know, obviously, as you wrote about, like Prefer was
making some homophobic statements that made you uncomfortable, and not

(28:56):
just you, because as you wrote, there were other players
who really, we're not comfortable with some of the things
that he was saying. When you're in that environment, especially
with talk about a NFL environment, you know, there's really
it doesn't seem like there's really any recourse if that's
the case, there's no it's not like you can go
to HR, like you cannot go to HR. Really nothing

(29:19):
that you can do as you're going through this process
though that did it begin to impact how you looked
at the Vikings as an organization, Yeah.

Speaker 4 (29:28):
It kind of bummed me out, especially with how things
turned out because the owner himself, Ziggy Wolf, like he
had come up to me after that first piece had
gone viral and he was like, hey, you know what,
I think what you're doing is great, right, Like I
think you're doing the right thing. And you know, for
those who don't know Ziggi Wolf and his family, they're Jewish, right,
and they're a very family oriented company. And like I'll
never forget my rookie year when they first took over.

(29:48):
That was the whole love boat incident and like, oh
he lost his ship, like in a team meeting because
he's like, we are a family business, Like you reflect
upon us and you were pissing on people's lawns and
here I am my first year in the NFL, Like
is this normal. But yeah, so like you know, I'm

(30:09):
getting this message from Seggy, who you know, theoretically controls
the team, right like he's the guy who's in charge.
And then at the same time, the team lets me go.
And then after I sue them and we settled, and
they you know, they were required to put on an
LGBTQ summit to like, you know, get people aware of this.
Like they kind of dragged their feet on it, like
they didn't really make it happen until like thenk close

(30:31):
to the end of the five year deadline that they
had to actually do this thing. So I think there
are people within not just the Vikings organization, but within
all NFL organizations that want to do the right thing. Unfortunately,
I don't think enough of them are in positions of
power where they can do the right thing.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Yeah, I think people when they saw so many similarities
that what you have described as your experience that are
very similar to Colin Kaepernick's.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
He also sued the.

Speaker 2 (30:58):
League and they also settled his case. And for people
out there who may not know this is like it
is rare to get a w against you know, the
NFL at all, because there's a reason why they became
as powerful as they've become. When you reflect back and
especially thinking about what happened to your employment opportunities after this,

(31:22):
how much do you think the lawsuit contributed to you
not you not ever getting another shot in the NFL, Like,
do you think had you not sued, that maybe you
might have had an opportunity to play again or did
you think that that was just going to be the
consequence regardless.

Speaker 4 (31:38):
So the timeline on that, I didn't actually sue until
after I knew I wasn't going to play in the
league again. So basically what happened is the next year
I had the Raiders picked me up. So I was
with the Raiders during the preseason and that was just
a legit competition. I got beat out by Marquete King,
like he was the better punter than me. He's the
rookie with the big leg. I was the older vet,
and like, I can't complain about that because when I

(31:59):
came in the league, I was the rookie with the
big leg and you know, and I beat out the
older guy, Like that's that's kind of the nature of
the business. So I was like, you know that that
was fair. The Raiders treated me fine, I have no
complaints there. Then I had a couple of tryouts. One
was a call of the wild tryout with the Bears
where everyone there knew that we weren't going to get
the job. You know.

Speaker 5 (32:15):
It's one of those where the punter has a bad
game the week before and like we're going to bring
in six guys and we're all just like, none of
us are getting hired, especially because it was I want
to say, it was like thirty mile an hour wins
coming through and so they have this out here punting
and like it's going fifteen yards against the wind in
like eighty yards with it.

Speaker 4 (32:33):
I'm like, you cannot judge anyone's capabilities on today. But
the one that really made me aware that, like, I'm
not going to play in the league ever again was
I had to try out with the Cincinnati Bengals. That
was after Ken Huber had his job broken on Sunday
Night Football. I think it was a blindside hit on
a pun return. And it's funny because I was actually
in Minnesota for that game because I was being honored
for the Metrodome All twenty five years team as the

(32:56):
best hunner for the Fighters. So I was at a
restaurant with some friends and watching, you know, they had
the game on on the TVs and I saw the
hit happen. I'm like, oh shit, Like the Bengals are
probably going to call me tomorrow morning and asked me
to come out, you know, to try out. And sure enough, yeah,
they called me up the next morning. I'm like, yes,
I can make it. I just need some cleats. It's
like I was, I was really planning on this that happen.
So I went and did that tryout and felt like,

(33:17):
I like that I had won it because they they
weren't looking for a replacement for Hubert, you know, they
were just looking for a veteran guy to finish out
the season. They had playoff aspirations. I think they were
either like in the lead for their division or like,
you know, they were going to be a wild card.
They needed someone who could directional punt, which I showed,
you know, obviously I could do that because I'd been
doing it for a while with the Vikings. And then yeah,
they didn't go with me. So I was like, Okay,

(33:39):
maybe they just saw something in someone else. The guy
they went with, he had chanked a couple punts in
the tryouts. They cut him after two weeks because he
shanked a couple puns during the games. And then they
picked up Zultan Mesco, and you know, Zulton's great dude,
He's also a really good punter. Promised Zultan Mesco wasn't
at the tryout, So I'm like, okay, so if you're
going with the guy who wasn't at the tryout, and
you've already seen what I can do, and this is

(34:00):
literally the best case scenario for me. I'm not an
NFL punter anymore, because like, if I can't get this job,
then there is no chance for me to punt in
the NFL. And that was where I was like, Okay,
well that's the case, and I want people to know
here is what happened. And that's that's when I wrote
the second deadsmin piece. And then that's when I filed
suit against the team and then we ended up saddling.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
But that has got to be sort of heavy to
deal with, is you know, you your NFL exit, and
I get it.

Speaker 1 (34:26):
Players can never control how you leave the game, like
you just can't. But you als wasn't due to injury.
It wasn't due to the fact that you just weren't
good anymore.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
It was literally because you chose it, you chose to
take a stance against something.

Speaker 1 (34:40):
How did that emotionally register for you?

Speaker 4 (34:43):
It sucked. My wife was pretty pissed about it. I
think she probably is still pissed about it. It's and
it sucks because, you know, looking at the career, the
traditional career of punters and kickers is that usually once
you make it past those first two or three years,
you know, you're gonna play for like anywhere from twelve
to fifteen, right Like, That's that's the typical career punter path.

(35:04):
And I was looking forwards to you know, signing another contract,
you know, to playing for another like four to eight
years in the league, because that's that's what I felt
I had left in me, Like I felt like I
could still perform at that level. So yeah, it was
just it sucked. But at the same time, when I
look at everything that happened in terms of Minnesota actually
banning that marriage amendment, in terms of same sex marriage

(35:26):
actually becoming legal at the federal level, you know, six
months later, it's like, well it was worth it, right,
Like it was, you know, I set out to accomplish
something to help other people accomplish something, and we did it.
So you know, yeah, I would have liked to play
more football, but I would much rather live in a
society that allows people to be who they are, even

(35:46):
if it comes at the cost of some of my
football career days, at.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Least from what I read and you can clarify with
then that is true, is that you didn't receive any
money for that settlement.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
Is that correct? No, you didn't.

Speaker 4 (35:56):
Yeah, I made it very clear upfront that the whole
reason why I was so the team was it wasn't
to try to get any wages for me. It was
to show that if you do this, there will be
a cost, and like that it's not right to do this,
you should not hold this position and that and because
the other thing is again like even though I only
played eight years in the NFL, like, I still made
enough money where I like, I live pretty modestly. I

(36:19):
don't need a lot of things, Like I don't have
to buy the latest expensive car pretty much. The only
thing I need is like a somewhat up to date
gaming laptop. That's my major expense. But yeah, so it's
it's I knew I would be okay, like even if
I never played again. And so it's like, I don't
want your money. I want you to understand what you
did was wrong. And I feel like that helps get

(36:42):
the message across that like, I'm not trying to make
this about me. I'm trying to make this about the
issue at hand, which is you can't discriminate against people,
Like that's not what America should be about.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Now, you were years before Michael Sam got drafted and
played in the NFL. You know, Michael Sam being an
out player. Who was I believe I think he's drafted
by it.

Speaker 4 (37:05):
The rams, It like the seventh round.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
I want to like the seventh round.

Speaker 2 (37:10):
Uh, given your experience in the locker room, you know
you you you know these players. Do you think the
NFL because there was some there was some definitely some
awkward moments in terms of the coverage of Michael Sam
and everything else. But do you think the NFL is
I hate to use this word, but I'm gonna use
it for being not as eloquent as I want to

(37:31):
be in this moment. Is the NFL ready to have
you know, sort of out players? I mean, I know
there are a couple in the league. I'm forgetting his name.
He plays for the Raiders.

Speaker 4 (37:42):
Uh. Yeah, he's a defensive defensive lineman.

Speaker 2 (37:44):
Right, But do you think that this is a league
that has now culturally come to the point where this
is fine if we have gay players who are playing
in the NFL.

Speaker 4 (37:54):
I think it's approaching that point. I don't think it's
quite at that point yet, because a lot of the
same ownership that was there when Michael Sam was coming
into the league is still the same ownership now. And unfortunately,
with the way our current political climate is unfolding it,
they might see it as a you know, a reason
for them to go back to the way things were
instead of, oh, we've you know, we've covered this ground.

(38:17):
Let's not do that again. And and I And it
sucks for Michael Sam that he had to be the
first guy, right because like it's it's always hard to
be the first guy, And like, I'm very thankful that
he was the first guy though, because you know, then
he does clear the path for other people, right, Like
he does make it a little bit easier for the
next guy to be Like, Okay, you know what, I
can be who I am, And I'll never forget I

(38:39):
was talking with a Sarah Tula. He's another defensive line
he played for I think the Falcons and the Packers
before my time, and he was telling me like he
was in the super Bowl, you know, playing playing in
the Super Bowl, and he would tense up and get
nervous whenever he made a sack and the crowd was
cheering because he's like, oh crap, what if they what
if they you know, what if they're yelling at me
for who I am? I'm like this, this is supposed

(39:00):
to be one of the greatest moments of your life.
And that is so unfair that like you can't enjoy
that because the league won't let you enjoy it because
they say who you are is not allowed. And like
that's that's what we all need to fight against, is
you know, so that people can be who they are
and they can enjoy those moments.

Speaker 2 (39:16):
Carl Nassa, that's his name, who yes spand for the Raiders,
that's who I was thinking of.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Who is an out player?

Speaker 2 (39:23):
Okay, Chris, that was one fight that you had hit
with the Minnesota when you were at Minnesota Vikings. And
now you're onto another fight where you're again using your
platform and this time getting arrested. So we're going to
take a very quick break and we come back. We're
going to find out all about Chris Cleoey, who is
once again teaching us what resistance really means.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
In twenty twenty five. Will be back in a moment.

Speaker 2 (39:57):
So, Chris, because you learned your lesson and decided, you
know what resistance isn't for me, I can'd because you
definitely haven't learned your lesson, and it's probably a good
thing for the folks out there where you live in
Huntington Beach. So recently you took on the Huntington Beach
City Council and you engaged in what is an American right,

(40:19):
as you have pointed out, not just the right to
freedom of speech, but the right to civil disobedience. And
all of this is over a plaque that I believe
that they wanted to hang in the library, and the
plaque was the MAGA slogan. I mean, they tried to
be kind of slick about it, so they used like
an acronym sort of, But it was the plaque commemorating

(40:42):
fifty years of Huntington Beach's Library, and on the plaque
it said Magical Alluring, galvanizing, adventurous. If anybody knows how
to spell that is maga maga okay so, And then
underneath the words on the plaque, it reads through hope
and change, our nation has built back better to the
golden era of making America great again.

Speaker 1 (41:03):
So a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
Would see this and they say, eh, what's the big deal?
Why was this the fight against the city council that
you wanted to pick?

Speaker 1 (41:12):
Why did you decide not? Today? I choose well non violence, right.

Speaker 4 (41:18):
Yeah, So this is actually a fight We've been having
here in the city for the past like two and
a half three years, and I've been at previous city
council meeting speaking out on this like this. This wasn't
just a one off where like, oh, Chris lost his
mind and then he got arrested, like it's this has
been an ongoing process, and it started with a member
of our city council, with Gracie Vandermark. She wanted to
ban a bunch of books from the children's section of

(41:39):
the library because she said they were inappropriate in pornography.
Vast majority of the books were LGBTQ plus issue books,
And so you know, immediately that pinged my radar is like, oh, hey, yeah,
like I should probably talk about this, but also like
I am a huge reader, Like I grew up reading
tons of books. I grew up in libraries, Like I
was fortunate enough that my parents had a ton of
books in our house, Like we pretty much had our
own personal library. Like I have my own personal library now,

(42:03):
like hundreds of books. Like I love books. And a
library is supposed to be in a political space, supposed
to be a place where anyone can go in and
read and find knowledge. And honestly, it's the backbone of
the American education system because it allows kids who don't
have access to books at home a place where they
can go and learn and where they can discover things

(42:24):
that they might not otherwise know. And so when this
initial book banning was announced, me and a bunch of
other people in the city you know, showed up city
council meeting. He said, this is not okay. Like this
there already is a process for removing inappropriate content. We
know it works because Gracie used it. And the library said,
oh yeah, that book was filed inappropriately. Let's put it
in the right section. This is an early teen book,

(42:47):
Like this is a kid's book. So we had a process.
The librarians knew what they were doing, like there was
no reason to ban these books, So big up or
about that. Then Gracie came back and said, Okay, well
we're going to institute a board that judges the suitabile
of the books in the library. And everyone's like, well,
that's just a book banning board, Like you're just talking
about banning books another way. So there's a big outcry

(43:08):
about that. We circulated petition, got over sixteen thousand signatures.
That's one of our ballot measures that's coming up in
a special election in June is to get rid of
this book banning board. Then the city council tried to
privatize the library. They're like, oh, the library is not
being run efficiently. We want this group to come in
and run it. And then when you look at the
privatized group that runs it, they're notorious for just gutting libraries,

(43:29):
like they get rid of all their services, they cut
down their selections. And you know, a library isn't supposed
to be a for profit system. It's a service like
it helps people. It doesn't need to turn a profit.
So yeah, big outcry about that led to another petition.
That's the second ballot issue on our special election in June.
So up hunting Yeah, yeah, Huntington Beach. We're having to

(43:51):
go through some shit right now. And so so that
was the third part. And then the fourth part was
this plaque. And you know, the the initial plaque that
they propose, It didn't even have like the slogans on
the bottom. It just had the maga acrostic as the
biggest font on the plaque. And I'm sorry, if you're
honoring a library, maybe the library should be the biggest

(44:13):
font on the plaque, not your political message. And so
I actually went to the library Planning Commission meeting the
week before, whereas it wasn't just me, there's a bunch
of people there, ninety percent of the people there, including
some Trump supporters, who were like, we don't like this plaque.
It is ugly, it is stupid. We do not want
it in this fashion. We want to support our library,

(44:35):
we want to celebrate it, but we do not want
this on the plaque. Naturally, the Planning Commission ignored all
of us, rubber stamped it, sent it straight to the council,
which I knew they were going to do because you know, again,
we don't really have a functioning city government in Huntington
Beach right now, because a city council is supposed to
be a political like that's why you don't run with
a D or in R next to your name, Like
you're supposed to work for the good of the community
and you're supposed to do what's best for the entire city.

(44:57):
So anyways, they sent it to the city council. I
knew the city council was going to listen because I
have yet to see them actually debate any issue brought
up in public comment, Like they don't. They just don't
listen to people. They have their agenda, they want to
do what they're going to do. And again that's not
a functional government. So is at that point where it's like, okay, well,
I really want to point out that what maggot stands for.
Here's what it stands for. You know, it is explicitly

(45:19):
a Nazi movement. It is explicitly on American It is
like the worst parts of humanity in it. By putting
that on our library like that, that's telling everyone who
comes to our city, this is what Huntington Beach stands for.
And then I was like, and I want to do
something more. I want people to know that we're not
being listened to. So the next step is peaceful civil disobedience,
because this is what I had been wanting to see

(45:40):
from my elected officials for because this happened back in February,
like for a month straight, I was like, where are
our John Lewis's right, Like, where is our good trouble?
Where are our senators in Congress people who are blocking
DOGE from getting into buildings or pushing past DOGE to
find out like what they're doing with our social security
information or what's going on in the trade. Like that's

(46:01):
that's what our elected officials are supposed to do. And
so I've always firmly believed if I'm going to ask
someone to do something, I have to be willing to
do the same thing. So I was like, well, if
you're not going to do it, I guess I have
to show you how to do it again. And so
that led to me being like, Okay, well guess I'm
going to go get arrested and so yeah, so then
that clip went viral and yeah, certainly sparked some attention,

(46:25):
and they passed the plaque anyways, they don't care.

Speaker 1 (46:28):
So yeah, we're we passed the plaque anyway.

Speaker 4 (46:30):
Yeah, yeah, it's a and then so the whole thing.
So the thing you read on the bottom, that mashup
of kind of like it's Obama, you know, Obama slogan,
Biden slogan, and then Trump's slogan. And the point is
it's not that we want the We don't want fairness
in our political slogans on the library plaque. We don't
want any political slogans on the library plaque, Like we
want the library to be in a political public space

(46:52):
because that's what it's supposed to be.

Speaker 2 (46:55):
So, because you went in with this intention, got to know,
what did your wife think of about this?

Speaker 4 (47:01):
So I'd actually told her, I'm like, I'm probably gonna
get arrested. She's like, yeah, sure, because you know, she's like, yeah, yeah,
you talked a big game. I was like, no, I'm
pretty sure, right, Yeah, But when it happens, she's like, yeah,
that sounds about right. She knows she married yeah exactly,
She's like, yeah, that's my husband.

Speaker 2 (47:20):
So what has the reaction been in your community that
you chose to take this stand?

Speaker 4 (47:26):
Yeah, so people who have talked to me all for it,
like they're like, yes, we're tired of the city council,
Like we're tired of them, you know, essentially not representing
the city right because you know, to be fair to
Huntington Beach, Huntington Beach does lean conservative like it is
it is a fairly conservative city. However, it's the small
sea conservative, like we don't want to pay as many taxes,
we don't want people to build houses in our backyards

(47:48):
like that. That's that's basically Huntington Beach conservatism. I don't
think our conservative people realized when they voted for the
city council they were hitching their wagon to the Nazi train.
Like that's that, and now it's our job to make
them aware that, yeah, you you teamed up with the Nazis,
so like you kind of need to come back over
to the American side otherwise you're enabling the Nazis. And so, yeah,

(48:09):
it's been very supportive. However, there is a regressive element.
I did get fired from my job as a freshman
football coach at Edison High School because they deliberately took
a blue Sky post out of context and called the
school and said that I was making threats the posting question.
We had recorded a video asking people to not review
bomb the library because like people were like, oh, you know,
I'm gonna I'm gonna go review bomb the library, like,

(48:30):
you know, make it, you know, lower the ratings so
everyone hates it. I'm just like, don't do that. Like,
the library is a great place. We don't want you
to do that. If you're gonna review bomb something, go
find where the council member work and you know, bomb
there instead. And so my post was like I can't
believe I have to say this, but please don't attack
the library. You know, find out where the council members
are working and blow those places up instead. Quote posted

(48:52):
with the actual video where we explicitly reference review bombing.
I got a call from a Huntington Beach police detective
that claimed that I was inciting violence and I was
making violent threats. I'm just like, no, I'm not, like,
like I'm talking about review bombing. She did not seem
interested in the context of the of the post. So
I'm like, Okay, if it'll make you feel better, because
I want to keep my community safe, I'll take the

(49:14):
post down right Like, because again I don't want violence
in my community. I want peaceful civil disobedience so people
understand what's happening. And then yeah, then the school called
me in and said we have to let you go.
We're getting too much attention. Notably, they did not say
anything about violent threats, so at the time I'm pretty
sure they were just like, oh, we're getting phone calls.

(49:34):
We were just going to get rid of this guy, right,
same as the NFL. They don't. They don't want the attention,
you know. And it's and it's unfortunate because we're seeing
that happen in institutions across America right now, you know,
in higher education, with law firms, you know, with corporations.
People are bending the need of fascism because they think
it will save them and it won't. It's if you
don't stand up to a bully, he's just going to
keep taking everything you have until you have nothing left.

(49:57):
So yes, I have faced personal repercussions for it. But again,
at the same time, it's like, this is a message
we need to be talking about. And this is arguably
even more important than when I spoke out for LGBTQ
plus rights, because this is the very fabric of our
society like this, this is are we going to be
American or not? Like will we have the ability to
have free speech and to protest against things we disagree with?

Speaker 2 (50:20):
In this moment, I think a lot of people are
evaluating and thinking about what's important. A lot of the
things that you just mentioned, we just you know, recently
there was a hands off protest where you saw thousands
of people nationwide who were participating and showing their displeasure
about this administration, about the authoritarianism in this country, like
all those things that you just mentioned.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
I think capitulation.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
We see a lot of that, and that has sort
of been as you just said, that's been the kind
of the default that people are just capitulating, often in advance,
not necessarily even being asked to. They're just viewing it. Yeah,
I mean they're absolutely doing it. So for you, given
what you've already risked, You've lost a career over this,
You've lost now a job over this, what is it

(51:06):
that keeps you continuing this fight? Knowing now even though
you've experienced all these consequences, A lot of people would
have just been like fuck it, Like what am I
doing this for?

Speaker 1 (51:17):
If y'all not willing to fight.

Speaker 2 (51:18):
So what is it that keeps you engaged in the fight,
because I think a lot of people need to understand
what that is as they try to evaluate what's their
own level of resistance.

Speaker 4 (51:29):
Right. So for me, it's a couple things. The primary
one is that, like, I actually am a proud American, right,
Like I want America to live up to the dreams
and ideals that were stated in the founding of our country. Now,
granted those were not achieved even at the founding of
our country because our founders were slave owners, so like

(51:50):
we still have to deal with that. We haven't dealt
with that in a meaningful way. And actually I'll get
to that in just a bit. But the thing is,
like I want to be proud of my country, and
what Americans do we show up for other people? Like
we welcome in the tired and the poor and the
huddled masses yearning to be free, right, Like we have
the Declaration of Independence that everyone deserves the right to life, liberty,

(52:11):
and the pursuit of happiness. And yeah, we haven't achieved it,
Like we haven't had that for everyone. But I think
it's a dream worth pursuing. And that's That's what drives
me because that's the country I want to live in,
and if I don't fight for it, eventually they're going
to come for me. Like and and if someone's watching
this and you think, oh, why should I stick up
for other people? Right, Like I can tell you you

(52:32):
can fight for purely selfish reasons, Like you can fight
completely to protect yourself, because if you don't fight now,
eventually they will get to you because you're either gonna
do something that they don't like or you're going to
turn into a person that you don't like. So it
is incumbent upon us to act now because the longer
we wait, the harder it gets and the more damage happens.

(52:53):
So yeah, that's the big driver for me from a
personal level. On a secondary level, it's because I can
afford to do it right, Like I am a well off,
heterosexual white man, Like I am the type of person
who should be on the frontlines fighting because I am
the type of person who can afford to absorb those blows.
And we need more people like me on the front lines,
Like we need more people like me joining in the

(53:15):
resistance and saying no, I you know, even though this
might be personally harmful to me. Even though this might
impact my you know, my economic status or my job.
I can afford to do it. I have enough money,
Like I have enough to keep my family safe and secure.
I need to step up for those who can't, because
there are a lot of people who do want to
be out there, but can't be out there because they

(53:36):
are members of marginalized groups, because they are at risk
of being deported or sent to jail. Like that's that's
why we need to step up. And you know, to
be perfectly frank, donald Trump is a white person problem,
like he is a white person problem we made Donald Trump.
We need to clean up our mess. So that means
you need to show up to protest, You need to
show up to your city council meetings. You need to
contact your elected officials, and you need to tell them

(54:00):
we are angry as hell about what this country is
turning into and we need to do something about it.

Speaker 2 (54:05):
A lot of we were always wrestling with this question
is about whether or not athletes are obligated to use
their platform, use their position, their status, their wealth, as
you just pointed out, in order to speak of for
those who don't have the same resources or access. Where

(54:26):
do you stand with how athletes can play a part
in this larger political picture.

Speaker 4 (54:31):
Yeah, so a lot of it is really just using
your voice, right, because one of the biggest problems we're
also facing is that people just aren't politically knowledgeable about
what's going on. I mean, I think it was what
like half of the country didn't even vote in our
most recent election. It's like Donald Trump doesn't have a mandate,
Like he didn't even win with a majority. He won
with a plurality. Like there's you know, maybe like twenty

(54:53):
five thirty percent of the country actually voted, you know,
for him to do what he's doing. And it's like,
we need those people who don't understand and why this
is important to become engaged. And even if it's just
for this particular moment, we need you to understand that
the idea of America is under threat and that it
is an existential threat and if you don't show up,
then you are going to lose what makes America America.

(55:15):
And you know, athletes can help with that because a
lot of those people who aren't politically engaged watch sports, right,
you know, they'll watch the Super Bowl, they'll tune into
the World Series. You know, they'll watch the Stanley Cup.
So athletes have that platform to reach those people who
might not otherwise see that information. And as as Spider
Man said very famously, you know, as Uncle Ben said, right,

(55:38):
with great power comes great responsibility. And you know what,
you have great power, here's the responsibility part.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
A lot of people listening to this might have this question,
because it certainly has popped in my mind considering the
issues that you're having there in Huntington Beach with the
city council and what they've hitched their wagonto. I'm not
familiar with how this city council you know, is decided,
but have you thought about running for the city council
there in Huntington Beach?

Speaker 4 (56:04):
Yeah, so I've been asked that a lot. I'm still
trying to figure out what the most effective use of
my voice is going to be. And so, from a
nuts and bolt standpoint, one of the big problems with
Huntington Beach is that, unlike the cities surrounding us, we
don't run off a precinct system. So you know, normally
with the precingc system, you have individual areas and then
council members are elected from those areas, we have a

(56:25):
at large system, which means whoever the top three or
top four vote getters are depending on election cycle, those
are the people who go in. Huntington Beach also has
a problem in that the Calvary Chapel Megachurch has a
couple really big branches in Huntington Beach, and the Calvary
Chapel Megachurch has decided that they want to play politics,
so we need to a start taxing them if they

(56:46):
want to play politics. And b people need to understand
that right now, the agenda being implemented in Huntington Beach
is not a Huntington Beach agenda. It is a mega agenda,
and it is a specific religious agenda, more specifically, a
white nationalist Christian reallyious agenda, which I know a lot
of folks don't agree with because there are a lot
of different flavors of Christianity. So I'm again to make

(57:08):
a long story short, I am thinking about it. The
problem is I'm gonna have to compete with a lot
of money and a lot of money coming in from
outside of state. Because our most recent city council election
our fourth place. So the first runner out, Natalie Moser,
she raised I think it was around like two hundred
and seventy thousand dollars to run for a city council seat,
which is kind of ridiculous for a beach town. You

(57:29):
should be spending maybe like thirty or forty rand like
this should be your election you know war chest. But
that's what we have to compete against. And that even
that wasn't enough because you know, we just we have
all this money flowing into the city because MAGA and
this specific church group, they want to use this as
their you know, sort of test bed, their you know,
their breeding ground to then start expanding to other cities

(57:51):
in the state. And we're already seeing that happen. One
of the very first things Huntington Beach was a flag
ban on the pride flag said, you know, you can't
lie the Pride flag getting more at city facilities. That
was kind of their starting point. Recently, I think it
was about a week ago, week and a half ago.
I had to go to also Jeho because they were
considering a similar Pride flag ban, and I was like, hey,

(58:12):
this is how it started in Huntington Beach, and you
do not want to end up like Huntington Beach because
it's bad for your city. It's bad for the business
of your city. It's going to draw white nationalists and
white supremacists to your city and people will just stop
spending money there. So, like from a business perspective, you
do not want to go down our path because we
are losing business over this. Like I've heard from multiple
people that are like, we just won't go to Huntington

(58:32):
Beach anymore because there's a racist problem here. And Huntington
Beach has always had that history. I grew up in
Seal Beach, which is like almost right next door, and
it's there's a long and sordid past in the Huntington
b city history. But like it was moving in the
right direction. Now it's moving back in the wrong direction.
And so we need folks to understand that if you
move in that direction, there is a cost to that.

(58:52):
There's a financial cost to that, and it's not good
for your city.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
What's your relationship like with football now?

Speaker 2 (58:58):
You are obviously coaching, but no knowing you know how
the league and somewhat characterize it as turning that they
turn their back on you.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
How does that you know? How do you view football now?

Speaker 4 (59:10):
So the thing for me is that I like, I
was never really a big sports fan because whenever I
had TV time, I wanted to play video games. Like
that was, I never really wanted to watch sports. And
then you know, when I when I was interested in sports,
I'm like, I'm just going to go play sports, right like,
because I do something. That being said, like I have
a complicated relationship with the NFL and that, like, I
think you can learn a lot of really good things

(59:32):
from football, right Like, it teaches teamwork, It teaches the
value of struggle, right of overcoming adversity, and of finding
your limits and then pushing past what you thought your
limits were to find your actual limits. So like, I
do think there is a value to football. Unfortunately, I
don't think the NFL in its current form is something
that that is ethically like sustainable. I mean you just

(59:54):
look at the head injuries, even even with the new technology,
even with like the you know, the changes to the
kickoff roles stuff like that, is you can't when two
people hit each other, you can't cushion the inside of
someone's skull, and so you'll never be able to stop concussions,
and you know, you're essentially causing brain damage to the
people playing the game. And the problem is that NFL

(01:00:14):
players are compensated for that brain damage, right Like it's
you know, it's hopefully it's enough because a lot of
guys are going to be facing those issues when they
get older. But ninety nine percent of the kids who
play football in high school aren't ever going to go
on to college. Ninety nine percent of kids who play
football in college aren't going to go on to the NFL.
So we're causing brain damage to teenagers as our feeder system,

(01:00:34):
you know, to make the NFL a thing. So, you know,
I I'm heartened by the NFL moving to more of
a flag football model. I think that that would be
a good a good step forward in terms of the
high school system. But yeah, in terms of the league itself,
it's just it's tough to watch, like knowing what I know,
and like, you know, just knowing how guys turn out
after they're done playing. Although I do have a soft

(01:00:56):
spot in my heart for Vikings fans because I know
we always let your hearts down in a wide variety
of entertaining ways. I really would like to see them
win a Super Bowl at least once, just for all
the fans out there.

Speaker 2 (01:01:09):
You know, we saw what happened to you, We saw
what happened happened to Colin Kaepernick.

Speaker 1 (01:01:14):
In your mind. Has the NFL kind of put it
into resistance.

Speaker 4 (01:01:19):
Yeah, well they're certainly trying to. I mean, I don't
know if you saw it, but apparently we solved racism
because you.

Speaker 2 (01:01:24):
Know, they put it in the end zone and it
was gone right in racism like, oh.

Speaker 4 (01:01:31):
Snap is over hanging the mission accomplished banner?

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:01:36):
So yeah, I think I think unfortunately the end like
I said earlier, like I've been saying, the NFL is
run by rich Old Whiteman, and they think the prevailing
political wins are ones where anything they view as diverse
or equity or integration or like anything that's going to
respect progressivism is not going to be allowed. And so
they're capitulating in advance because they don't want Trump to

(01:01:58):
send his people after them, which again I think is
really cowardly, especially from a league that employed that the
majority of its employees are black men. Like that's that's
a real kind of like, Okay, we're getting back to
the plantation mentality of yeah you can you know, you
can sweat and kill yourself for us, but we don't
really care about you as people.

Speaker 2 (01:02:16):
All right, Chris, I'm going to end this podcast by
asking you what I call the messy question.

Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
This is where we make headlines.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
I'm sure we made a lot already, but this is
where we make headlines and uh, you know, sort of
piss people off. I'm putting it all on your shoulders here, Chris.
Who is the best punter in NFL history?

Speaker 4 (01:02:37):
Best punter in NFL history? Uh? God? So that's it?

Speaker 2 (01:02:41):
Is it guy Reggie Roby?

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
Is it Sammy Baugh?

Speaker 4 (01:02:45):
Like? Who is it?

Speaker 1 (01:02:46):
Give us your hot take about the best punter ever?

Speaker 3 (01:02:48):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:02:49):
So that's actually a really difficult question to answer because
it determined, like it depends on what you determine as best. Right,
is it who kicked at the farthest, who had the
highest hang time? You know, who is best at pinning
people inside the twenty? Like it's I think Rey guy
Reggie Roby. Definitely. I think Reggie Roby should be in
the Hall of Fame. And then there's one other person
that I think should be in the Hall of Fame,
and he'll never get the attention he deserves. And that's

(01:03:11):
Darren Bennett. Because Darren Bennett introduced the Aussi rules kick
to the NFL, and every punter now uses the Ossi
rules kick for plus fifty situations. And the Hall of
Fame is about people who changed the game at their position, right,
like these these are the people who legitimately changed the game.
Darren Bennett legitimately changed the game of football. Like and yeah,
I know it's punning, Like yeah, I know, most people

(01:03:32):
don't care about punning, but like when you go back,
like before Darren Bennett, everyone learned the coffin corner punt
because that's all that we knew how to do. Like
I used the coffin corner punt because that's all we
knew how to do. And then when he introduced the
Ossie rules punt, it's like, oh, hold up, this is
just a better kick from every aspect. It's easier to use,
you're less likely to put it in the end zone,
you're less likely to shank it, and it changed that

(01:03:53):
specific part of punning. So I think, I don't think.
And Bennett's numbers were also good, like he was an
all decade player for the Chargers. This was after I
think it was like a twelve year Aussie rules football career.
The dude was already beat up, you know what I mean,
came over. So yeah, I would like to see Reggie
Robi and Darren Bennett in the Hall of Fame. I
think in terms of best punter overall, Like again, it

(01:04:14):
depends on era, depends on what you're looking for and
h Thomas more staid he was so Normally, when you're punting,
you have three things that you're trying to do. You're
trying to get distance, You're trying to get hangtime, and
trying to get location. Generally you're gonna have to settle
for two of those things. So if you're going for
distance and hangtime, you're really laying into the ball. You're
not really sure where it's going to go. Right. If
you're going for distance and location, you're driving, it's gonna

(01:04:37):
be more a line drive. You're gonna lose hangtime. If
you're going for hangtime and location, well, now you're sacrificing
distance because you know you're making sure that goes there more.
Stead could do all three.

Speaker 2 (01:04:44):
Really the final final question give me because now you
probably look at when you played and you see about
how they're doing kickoffs now and everything. You're like, wow,
that's different and right right, but give me your best
or most memorable.

Speaker 1 (01:05:00):
On a punt return. You got your shit rock story.

Speaker 4 (01:05:03):
I got two of them. They are fantastic. So the
first one was my second year in the league. That
was so lucky me. My second year in the league
was Devin Hester's rookie year and he went to the
Chicago Bears, so I get to face him twice a year.
And so we're playing in Chicago and you know, just
a brutally cold day, like I think it was like

(01:05:24):
five degrees on the field and with windshield it was
like negative two or negative three or something. And you know,
as a dumb ass, young you know NFL player, I
was like, I'm not gonna worst lee heuse, I'm gonna
tough it out, and it's like I've made a terrible mistake.
So anyways, like he'd already I think returned one for
a touchdown at this game, and so I hit one.
It was actually a decent punt, like I hit it,
I hit it to the right. Everyone's running down. He

(01:05:46):
starts coming to our left, so you know everyone's tracking.
Then he cuts back to go back to the right,
so I turn right to start tracking and Brendan I
am a dajo like his special teams as for the Bears,
for a long time linebacker. Also, you see, like I,
he had taken like a fifteen yard run up from
the side, and he cleaned my clock right as I
turned to the side, like I had just enough time

(01:06:08):
to get my hands up like that, and I thought
I had broken my wrist. He jammed and moved back
in my chest. And so we were watching film on Monday.
It was one of those just like ooh, because you
see him just lining it up and it's like, oh man,
that one, Yeah, that one. I was just miserable. And
then the second one. We were playing in Jacksonville, so

(01:06:30):
this was God. I forget when this was. It might
have been like two thousand and nine, two thousand and eight,
two thousand and nine. So we called directional punt right.
I hit the ball directional punt right. Everyone runs to
the left. I'm not sure why. So I've got the
returner streaking down the sideline. I'm coming from the side
to try to get to him. And then the wing

(01:06:50):
or the outside the one who had rushed our wing
had peeled back to come this way. So like returner
coming like this, I'm coming across blockers coming up towards me.
I'm right about to make the tackle and he sticks
his shoulder pad right in my sternum. I go flying
like three yards in the air. And then I'm kind
of like stuck on the ground because i can't Breathe

(01:07:11):
like literally knocked the wind out of me. So like
this is like I'm posing for you know, pay me
like one of your French girls.

Speaker 1 (01:07:17):
Right, it was like you were buffer.

Speaker 4 (01:07:19):
Oh yeah, yeah, Like I was stuck. And then, to
make mad is worse, one of the Jacksonville's players. The
dude wasn't even dressed out, like he was in the
warm ups, like he wasn't dressed out for the game.
He comes over and does the Friday routine. You got
knocked the.

Speaker 2 (01:07:30):
Fuck out, and I'm just like, meanwhile, you're like.

Speaker 4 (01:07:40):
My is like and then so and at the time
our special teams coach, I think it's Paul Ferarum. He's
panicking on the sideline. Long Wall told me this later.
So Ryan Longwell, our kicker. He's coming up the long Well.
He's like, long, well, Long Well, you gotta get ready.
They just killed LUI.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Wow, time dead right.

Speaker 4 (01:08:02):
So thankfully, like I was fine, you know, I just
need to get my win back in me and like finish, finish.
The rest of the game, had a really good game,
because now I was like extra motor, it'd be like
fuck you kick it even harder. But yeah, those are
my I got rocked stories, oh.

Speaker 2 (01:08:16):
Man, So that that spirit of resistance there even then, well, Chris,
I want to thank you so much for joining me
and for taking the time out and appreciate you sharing
your journey and your story. And for a lot of
people out there again who are trying to figure out
what resistance looks like for them, I guess thank you
for providing them with a model of what it can
look like, especially at the local level, where probably a

(01:08:38):
lot of us need to be more engaged in our
communities and understand how the national political movement is infiltrating
what we're seeing in our neighborhoods and in our backyard.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
So thank you and keep up the good fight.

Speaker 4 (01:08:51):
Thanks. Yeah, And if anyone is, you know, sort of
wondering how to get involved, it's really simple. Just show
up to your city council meetings, like you whoever speaks
during public comment, you really quickly figure out, Okay, who
are the people that care about the issues that I
care about? Then just go talk to those people because
generally they'll be part of some sort of organization or
some sort of grassroots movements and they can give you
whatever information you need to know about how you can

(01:09:11):
get involved. So all you got news is show up
like at the local level, becau. That's where everything starts.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
All right, that's a good word. One more segment to go,
and you guys know what that means.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
I got questions to answer up next, your viewer slash
listener questions, and I have plenty of answers coming up
next on the final segment of spolatives. All right, y'all

(01:09:40):
know what time it is time for me to answer
your questions. And this one comes from Trinidad James Baldwin,
great name via threads Trinidad James Baldwin asked. Taylor Jenkins
proved himself, through injury suspensions, to be a very good coach.
John Morant has proven to be extremely talented but unreliable
on and off the court.

Speaker 1 (01:09:57):
Jenkins was fired. Morant makes shooting gestures.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Step can NBA franchises afford to support coaching and team
stability over talent, especially in small markets. Well, thank you
for your question, and of course you're referring to Memphis
Grizzlies head coach or former head coach.

Speaker 1 (01:10:14):
I should say here's the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:10:15):
There's been an interesting trend lately that I've noticed in
the NBA where you are having coaches that seemingly have
accomplished enough to warrant some kind of job security, they're
being fired. The Phoenix Suns just fired their third straight coach.
They have fired a coach every off.

Speaker 1 (01:10:32):
Season the last three years.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
I can't imagine what that payroll of coaches is going
to look like right about now. So they recently fired
Mike Budenholzer, who used to coach with the Milwaukee Bucks
where he won a title, right, and so you also
have the different Nuggets who fired Mike Malone. It used
to be when you want an NBA championships, that guarantee
that you would have some level of job security, but
that isn't the case. And what I attribute a lot

(01:10:57):
of that to is a combination of un realistic expectations,
the fact that you have a lot of owners who
have put together rosters that maybe aren't prepared as much
as they think to win in today's NBA. Let's look
at Phoenix again a prime example. Then he said the
largest payroll in the NBA. You would think that if
you had a team with Kevin Durant, Bradley Beal and

(01:11:18):
Devin Booker, that this should work in today's NBA, And
it didn't, and it hasn't worked in a few seasons.
So now thereforece with the decision about whether or not
they should just blow up everything they have, And there
are a lot of rumors already that Kevin Durant is
once again going to be on the move, or should
they continue down the path of trying to get some
kind of free agent or some kind of big splash

(01:11:41):
and build their teams sort of on a shorter term basis.
Either way, I think the main thing that's plaguing all
of this coach instability is the fact that you have
a lot of teams right now who just simply aren't
built to win, and a lot of organizations aren't willing
to face that factor. Organizations aren't willing to face reality,

(01:12:02):
and so when you look at the organizations that do win,
you see a lot of the key elements and why
they're successful.

Speaker 1 (01:12:09):
Culture, stability, consistency.

Speaker 2 (01:12:12):
Those are all the things that seemingly make up a
team that is built to win, or at least built
to compete and make the playoffs. I'm looking at a
team like Houston, a lot of young stars, but they
have a young core and most importantly, they have a
team culture and golden state. Even though you know they're
not in the upper echelon as it pertains to the
playoff standings, They've had a persistent culture in that organization

(01:12:36):
for a long time.

Speaker 1 (01:12:38):
The teams that lack culture are the teams that tend
to not win. So maybe NBA.

Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
Teams should focus on that as opposed to focusing on
other things like trying to have the flash years higher
or the flashy is free agent. Focus on building the culture,
and it feels like everything else kind of goes from there.
So Trinidad, James Baldwin, I want to thank you for

(01:13:03):
your question. Now, if you have a question for me,
you can hit me up on social media or email.

Speaker 1 (01:13:08):
I'm at Jamail Hill.

Speaker 2 (01:13:09):
Across all social media platforms, Twitter, Instagram, fan.

Speaker 1 (01:13:11):
Based, blue scuy and threads.

Speaker 2 (01:13:13):
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Ep 25: The Politics of Civil Disobedience - Featuring Chris Kluwe

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 25: The Politics of Civil Disobedience - Featuring Chris Kluwe