Ep 34: The Politics of They/Them - Featuring Layshia Clarendon

On this week’s filibuster, Jemele questions why FIFA decided to drop its anti-racism campaign while the Club World Cup tournament is being played in America. Jemele is then joined by recent WNBA retiree Layshia Clarendon, the WNBA’s first non-binary player. Layshia gets candid about why she decided to retire, what it means for the her to be the WNBA’s first  non-binary player, and why she decided to go public when she had top surgery. Layshia, who also identifies as trans, shares what it's like living in a climate where numerous states have adopted anti-trans legislation. She also provides a rebuttal to those who don’t believe trans girls and women shouldn’t be allowed to play sports.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's up everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to politics and I heart
podcasts and unbothered production.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Time to get spolitical.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
I've often given this sports world credit for sometimes being
more progressive than the rest of society. For example, Jackie
Robinson integrated baseball in nineteen forty seven. That was seven
years before the Supreme Courts Brown versus the Board of
Education decision well that racial segregation in public schools was unconstitutional,
and it was almost twenty years before the nineteen sixty
four Civil Rights Act, which prohibited discrimination based on race, sex,

(00:41):
and religion. And apparently sports has now gotten so far
ahead of where the rest of us are that they
can create a universe where any mention of racism, sexism,
anti semitism, discrimination, and homophobia simply don't exist.

Speaker 1 (00:56):
Now.

Speaker 2 (00:56):
FIFA's Club World Cup just kicked off here in America.
Eleven am Ya and cities will host Club World Cup
matches and soccer fans will certainly get to see some
terrific matches and dynamic players. But what soccer fans won't
see in American venues are ads like this.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
FIFA has a strict approach to all forms of discrimination.
Football breaks down barriers and empowers us to overcome challenges.

(01:33):
FIFA believes everyone has the right to inherit a world
free from prejudice. The discrimination in any form, race, gender
or religion has no place in our game.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
Unlike previous FIFA competitions, American patrons will not be shown
any videos, signs, or messaging that mentioned racism, sexism, anti Semitism,
nor will they hear any of FIFA's anti racism protocols,
which tells fans that racist cheers won't be tolerated. According
to a recent report by The Athletic Now, this is
a sharp departure from how things were done at the

(02:07):
Men's World Cup in Qatar in twenty twenty two and
the Women's World Cup in Australia in twenty twenty three. Now,
the Women's World Cup slogans such as Unite for Inclusion
and Unite for Indigenous Peoples and Unite for Gender Equality
and Unite for Ending Violence against Women or Commonplace, and
they appeared on captain's armbands and on advertising boards across

(02:28):
the stadium. For years, FIFA has waged anti racism campaigns
because there is a bad history there when it comes
to soccer and racism, and FIFA President Johnny Infantino has
been especially vocal about how the organization done wants to
deal with the issue. Just last month, Infantino asked world
leaders to join FIFA in fighting racism in their sport,
and a few years ago, on the eve of the

(02:49):
World Cup in Qatar, Infantino went all Jake Brigands from
the movie of Time to Kill.

Speaker 4 (02:54):
I think for what we Europeans have been doing in
the last three thousand years around the world, we should
be apologizing for next three thousand years before starting to
give moral lessons to people.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Today.

Speaker 5 (03:11):
I feel.

Speaker 4 (03:14):
Katari today, I feel Arab today, I feel African today,
I feel gay today, I feel disabled today, I feel

(03:48):
a migrant worker.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
So if Infantino was feeling all Katari, gay, African and
disabled in twenty twenty two, but now FIFA is switching
it up in twenty twenty five, why did infant you know,
go from sounding like Nina Simone to I don't see color.
FIFA hasn't explained why they chose not to continue their
anti racism campaign in America for Club World Cup, but

(04:10):
I can think of one pretty big reason why FIFA
is suddenly backing down.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
What team is favored?

Speaker 5 (04:16):
Now, there's such a thing.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
I mean, do they have a team like so many
of these great famous teams, what team seems to be favored?

Speaker 4 (04:23):
Well on the club one which takes place this year,
of course Real Madrid, the Manchester City, Bayern, Munich, the Germans,
Pattis Sangerman, the French big ones are always there. And
these clubs are multinationals. They have players from all countries.
They always seem to be there. They are always there.
That great and then next year Argentina, Brazil, England, Germany,

(04:47):
Spain to be great. It would be great.

Speaker 5 (04:50):
Any questions for Johnny us.

Speaker 4 (04:52):
US, US, US is coming up, US is coming to
watch the US some very very good players.

Speaker 2 (04:58):
That was, of course Donald Trump, who who had Infantino
in the Oval office a few months ago to announce
a special White House Task Force for the twenty twenty
six World Cup, which will jointly be hosted by Canada,
Mexico and the United States. And just in case you're
a confused, club World Cup taking place right now, in
the World Cup taking place next year, two different tournaments. Now,
considering that Trump and his administration have gone all in

(05:21):
on putting anything not white, male, heterosexual or Christian under attack.
Perhaps Infantino decided that just for the Club World Cup,
let's just let racism feel a little more at home,
since there is clearly widespread support for it in this
presidential administration. Now I've long let go of any hope
the leagues, teams, and other sports organizations actually care about

(05:45):
making any kind of real impact when it comes to
social justice. They care about looking racist. They don't care
about being a racist. They care about performance and optics. Meanwhile,
the players that power their leagues are impacted by the
social issue is that they readily abandoned when it's time
to take a real stand. Now, surely Infantino isn't oblivious

(06:07):
to the fact that the Club World Cup is happening
just as isis cosplaying as modern day slave catchers across
this country. In fact, Ice is showing up at these
Club World Cup matches hoping to nab undocumented soccer fans,
and they've even told people they should carry their immigration
papers with them if they plan on attending the matches.
Freedom papers coming back like Jordan Ware in the Faux five.

(06:28):
Now some have suggested that FIFA ship withdrawal next year's
World Cup from the United States, but considering the World
Cup has been in Gatar and Russia, I'm gonna go
out on a limb and say moral compass of a
country isn't a high priority for them. Others have encouraged
people to boycott the World Cup and the Club World Cup,
but I can't say I anticipate there will be any
major needle moving in that direction because people love their sports,

(06:52):
which is the reason countries who are shaky when it
comes to human rights and dictatorships love to use sports
as a shield to cover up the ugliness they don't
want the world to see. I'm Jamelle Hill, and I
approved this message now. In case you don't know, June
is Pride Month, and while this is purely a coincidence

(07:13):
on my part, my guest is appearing on today's episode
or reason that coincides with this important month. She was
the WNBA's first openly trans and non binary player, and
four years ago she went public with her decision to
undergo a procedure removing her breast tissue, also known in
the queer community as top surgery.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
But this was hardly the first.

Speaker 2 (07:32):
Time in her life that my guest has chartered her
own path and was willing to stand ten toes down
for her personhood and her beliefs. She was a key
voice when WNBA players waged their Breonna Taylor campaign and
when players decided to use their platform to help Georgia
Senator repend Rafayel Warnut defeat Kelly Leffler, who was part
owner of the WNBA's Atlanta Dream.

Speaker 1 (07:54):
At the time.

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Now twenty twenty five marks her first year not playing
in the WNBA in twelve seasons. Now she's pivoting in
a bunch of brand new directions, but still staying true
to her voice and who she is. Coming up next
on Spolitics, Lesia Clarington, So, lady, I'm going to start

(08:19):
this podcast with how I start every episode of politics
by asking you name an athlete or a moment that
made you love sports.

Speaker 5 (08:28):
Name or athlete that made me love sports? Or a
moment or a moment.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
It could have been a moment.

Speaker 5 (08:36):
I mean the first tie I popped on that My
mind is just super because I watched her playing growing up.
I've talked about it. I love her. I was sitting
on the couch with my mom and like high school,
just watching her play. I had her jersey, I like, actually,
still haven't. My dad found it the other day. I
should have waved it and held it up. Yeah, she
made me like just love the sport watching her be
a point guard out there on the court. Just I

(08:57):
aspired to like to be her.

Speaker 2 (09:01):
Now, were you one of those who when you started playing,
you know, basketball, that you if maybe you were taller,
you know than your other teammates and other people that
you played with.

Speaker 1 (09:12):
So, like, did you start did you start? Were you
always a guard? Basically?

Speaker 5 (09:16):
Yeah? I was always the guard. I was always Ronnie
as hell too, Like I was a hundred and whatever pounds,
the skinniest one still has the skinniest rhysthom of probably
the entire league. Maybe behind the want of honor, I
don't know, shut out, but yeah, I was little. I
was tiny, So I was always Fike Styve fighting out there.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
Now, you had an extensive WNBA career eleven years, I believe.
So how did you know or when did you start
thinking that it might be time for you to retire?

Speaker 5 (09:45):
I was gonna ask all the good questions get into
my my therapy session notes, put back through my notebook.
I mean I knew the last few years that I
was getting in the back end of my career just mentally, emotionally, rictually, honestly, really,
the fuckery of the industry is what I was starting
to be like, Oh, I don't know how much longer

(10:07):
I want to put up with this because I love
the game of basketball. The game is so here, it's beautiful,
Like you have to work with people, with teammates, but
at the end of the day, you know, it's like
I have one of my career years and then I
get cut by Minnesota the next year. So like dealing
with that kind of BS, dealing with some ds I
dealt with in New York. I was like talking to
my therapist, like how much longer am I going to

(10:29):
put myself through this volatile industry? And she's a therapist
that's not in sports, and she was like, yeah, this
is wild, Like this is out of pocket. I'm like, yeah,
this is my everyday life. So the last couple of years,
especially after getting waved, and I was like, I'm gonna
take this try out. At New York, I had a
training camp contract. Kurt Miller was the coach. He was
super honest and he was just like, yo, training camp contract,

(10:52):
Like come in show like prove and prove what you got.
And for me, I was like, that's easy, Like having
a fair shot is all you want as a player
because I'm competitor, so competed made that squad, played my
last two years at LA, and just last season, I
just kind of knew. Mid season, I was like, Yeah,
it's time, Like mentally, emotionally, spiritually, I was standing at

(11:14):
half court. We're beating Vegas because i was the one
team we could beat last year even though we had
eight wins, somehow we could beat Vegas like we had
their number. I always played great against Vegas too. We're
playing Vegas. I'm standing at half court warming up to
get into the second half, and I'm like bawling. We're
playing great, and I just am like I'm done. And

(11:36):
normally I just have still so much joy and passion
and drive and will to keep playing. And the last
couple of years, when I have those moments, I'm like, oh,
I'm playing for five more years and I have a
hard day, I'm like I'm done tomorrow, like just going
through this roller coaster. But something really poignant this last
season was just like oh it's time, and I just
felt it deep in my spirit and was able to like, like, oh,

(11:58):
really not hold on too tight.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
When you say the fuckery, that was the word that
you used. Are we talking about league politics or what exactly?
How how would you characterize and describe the fuckery?

Speaker 5 (12:12):
The fuckery a great question. I would say the fuckery
is like the politics of being in in the industry,
but particularly sports industry, where let's say I was playing
for New York. I was on a guaranteed contract, having
a great season, just played great in the bubble season
with seven rookies that they brought in, had career numbers.

(12:34):
The next season, I get let go and from dealing
with some internal bs, from the internal politics, and have
a great character, have all these great things. Just basically
a beef with the coach and they were like, we're
gonna let you go. So got my money, got paid out,
but got sent home, and like they're messing with my
job now in my livelihood. So that kind of fuckery

(12:57):
that like someone can literally take your job you in
any given day. And then the politics of training camp
and rosters and how emotionally stressful the job is. I
think that's something people don't talk about enough. And I
have been one of the most even killed players, Like

(13:17):
I like to fight and get into it. We can
talk about that with players on the court, but as
a teammate, as a person and as a someone's character
throughout my career has been very like I'm gonna I'm
gonna stay, even kill and so but what has come
with that has been such an emotional toll, right because
like I can fake it till you make it. Internally,
I'm like, I'm pissed. I'm seeing that I'm going to

(13:39):
be a good taste teammate and so that stuff it
just started to weigh on me. And the more I
healed myself, the more I could see the sport for
what it was that I could see all the BS
that was happening. I was like, oh, actually, I don't
need that anymore. I don't need this to feel worthy.
I don't need this to feel loved. I don't need
this to feel like I belong. Yes, those things are great.

(13:59):
I love that part of the WNBA and belonging in
the sisterhood, But the BS part of it of like,
you know, we're gonna do cuts. When my first year
in LA they did cuts on a Thursday, I think
it was the final cutoff day, and then we played
that Saturday or Sunday against Big at home against Phoenix
in front of eighteen thousand fans, seventeen eighteen thousand fans,

(14:21):
So you don't know if you're going home or you're
playing in front of seventeen thousand people. Like that's the
hard picture to paint for people from a player perspective
of like what you're going through mentally emotionally you're like
I'm even to have a health insurance next week, or
like I'm getting on a plane in two weeks about
to play three games in five days, Like how does
one person continue to have that level of resilience over

(14:46):
and over and over? And for me, that's why I
just get into the farm and I was like, yeah,
y'all can have all that. I loved it, but just
this is time for me to love and let go.
Like late, y'all got it go forth.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
So physically you you felt like you could definitely still
like physically you could still play, but it was just
sort of the mental aspects that you mentioned, like was
there any physical toll on.

Speaker 5 (15:08):
Your body or yeah, there's definitely physical toll too, Like
I've had I've been relatively healthy for my whole career,
never had any knee injuries mocked on wood. That's been nice.
But last season I also was having some breathing issues.
For the first time ever. I had pneumonia before the season,
which is terrible, like why walking pneumonia? So that I
went into the season and I developed asthma and that

(15:31):
wasn't diagnosed until probably a couple of months into playing.
So I'm when I finally saw the polmonologists, he was like,
you've been playing in the WNDA with asthma, like undiagnosed
with no in haler, Like how like that speaks to
the strength of your lungs the fact that you were
even able to play. But I was feeling it on
the court too, like that just kind of wheezing, just

(15:51):
trying to like be a point guard and get the
ball where it goes and jog to the other side
of the court. So that was a tough also like
health battle that I was going through.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
That.

Speaker 5 (16:02):
You know, when you can't breathe, you can't you can't meditate,
you can't like all of that stuff that's connected to
your oxygen, all that calming, deep breathing. That's another big
thing I was going through last year and just was
really hard medically, kind of advocating for myself too within
the team and being believed and being like I cannot breathe,
and continuing to say those words over and over until

(16:24):
I was believed. I was like, I'm not out of shape.
I can't breathe. I've never come into camp out of shape.
I'm a player who's professional, who's going to show up
every day. So that was another hard kind of physical
aspect of it. You know that COVID two or three times, Like,
we don't know what some of that stuff is contributing
to all of our health too.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Now, you were then WNBA's first transgender and non binary player.
You know, you just were talking about how there's a
lot of things that people don't necessarily see. And I
know you have been often celebrate it for carrying that distinction,
But what were some of the struggles that people maybe

(17:05):
didn't see that you were going through. Oh, I know
it's probably not a short list, I know that.

Speaker 5 (17:14):
But this will be a good chapter in the book
about this. I mean, some of the struggles are just
the toll of being the first. Like, I think there's
so much I have a deep gratitude and appreciation for
people in history who've been the first, especially black folks,
and so I know I'm in that line of folks

(17:35):
who have had to blaze a trail. But what comes
with that is like an emotional toll. It's like it's
lonely and it's isolating at times to be the person.
Like the analogy for me is like you're just hacking.
There's no trails, so you're just in the forest hacking
away like trying to find So you're going to get
scratched and bruised and you're going to get a little bloody,

(17:56):
and you're going to be lonely at times because you're
figuring it out. So that was tough for me. I mean,
in the bubble season is when I really decided I
didn't want breast anymore. So I was like, all right,
these gotta go. But then once you make that choice
for me, then I'm I'm really embodying the fact that
I don't want these anymore. So now I have to

(18:17):
live with this body until I can get to a
place right where I'm getting a firmed in my gender.
So that was really difficult for me. And that's all
happening in the bubble season. We're in Florida, finding for
our lives, as you know. I think those are some
of the big ones. It could be isolating at times,
like I don't realized like leadership or getting to the top,

(18:39):
or being the one of something like I want there
to be many of us. I want there to be
so many athletes and people that it's like, great, I'm
one of ten, fifteen, twenty. I had to talk to
some other athletes in other sports. That was helpful for
me to kind of reach out to them.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
You were you also made a very intentional decision to
go public when you had your surgery and to show
people like what that looked like. I mean, for you,
what was the significance of not you just having the surgery,
but sort of telling.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
The world that, hey, I have made this decision.

Speaker 5 (19:16):
It was not wanting to be not necessarily in the closets.
I think people who make that choice, I wouldn't say
it's it's it's a similar to being in the closet.
But for me, it was really just wanting to be
like loud and proud about who I was and know
that like, this isn't something I'm afraid or ashamed of.
I didn't know my nipples were gonna end up on
USA today. I'm glad I covered them. I put the

(19:38):
stars over room like I didn't expect it to blow
up the way it did. So that kind of that
did that decision to share about my top surgery, like
it thrust me into a different stratosphere of I don't know,
celebrity of I would say deity in some ways in

(19:58):
the queer community. That was something I wasn't prepared for
or like a consequence of that was like oh whoa
Like this is like my story became other people's story
to like run with. And up until that point, I
feel like I'd shared stuff and our women's basketball world
was you know, small and intimate. It's clearly blowing up
in a big way at this moment in time. But

(20:19):
that for me was like oh, and then I'm seeing
other people talk about me online and talk about, you know,
fighting for what pronouns I use, and I'm like, thank you,
but I also I use all of them. You're not
even like this is but it's right. Everyone has a
connection to that story. Because I represent I became a
symbol for people. So that was a really fascinating part
of it that has had me ever since then kind

(20:42):
of juggling like what I want to share about my
life publicly and privately, like what parts of me do
only belong to me? And I don't regret sharing that
top surgery at all, but it's had me wrestling with
the like, okay, yeah, like once you put it out there,
it's the world, like they get to run with it,
and it's so many fans and so really appreciate it.
So I love that part about it.

Speaker 2 (21:02):
I have another fellow up for you about that, but
before and you can call me a jackass for saying this,
but realize this is the nerdy grammar person in me
that they them.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
It just grammatically.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Doesn't always look right, and it just drives me crazy
when I see it.

Speaker 1 (21:20):
It's making you because like I know how it's supposed
to be used.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
You know, obviously I respect his pronouns, but it's like
the they them has me constantly in a grammatical circle
of hell.

Speaker 5 (21:34):
It's just like sometimes people are like, what it's me,
I'm multiple people because you're you're.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
Technic, because you're you're not binary, and you're in you're transgender.

Speaker 2 (21:45):
So yes, you are multiple, but I'm like, grammatically, yeah.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
It presents some challenges in sentences, yes, but.

Speaker 2 (21:55):
You know, as you just mentioned a moment ago, it's
like carrying that way to being the first I remember
something comment. Here's it is that you know, when you
break a ceiling, it implies breaking is involved, right, So
that means.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
That there's yeah, she ate that she dropped the borrow
on net.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
She there's going to be some scarm But nevertheless, as
you say, your story represented so many people who don't
have the same voice and platform as you. So how
do you how do you handle mentally handle the heaviness
of that.

Speaker 5 (22:25):
I mean, therapy has been one that's been great talking
through it. I have a good amount of trans friends,
to particular, two or three in particular that have gone
through the experiences and have been people who've honestly been
a light for me. One of my best friends, Ran
Warden has like lit in the lighted a path like

(22:48):
is I didn't know before them that, like even what
non binary really meant, because so much of our society
is still very like all right, you're there a signed
mail at birth and you want to be a woman. Okay,
you're transitioning all the way, there's like this like final
destination that you want to get to this point. And
so I've had people in my life fortunately that have

(23:10):
like showed me the way. Like my best friend had
top surgery and I was like, oh cool, Like at
the time, I wasn't thinking about I was like, oh, sure, okay,
and then like they were using different pronouns, I was like,
all right, I was fumbling. I'm messing him up and
be like trying them on and be like, oh, it's
weird to say he and she and they. But that
representation just sunk something in for me to have that space.
So then when I was ready to kind of go

(23:31):
through it and ask these questions, so my people, my
community therapy. Honestly choosing what to share and what not
to share about my life anymore has been helpful because
I used to live in the world where I could,
I could DM everybody back and I could you know,
when you're small enough, you can have those interactions. But
the Internet has also turned to a wild, wild, wild place,

(23:52):
so I've had to really protect my mental health in
that aspect too.

Speaker 2 (23:58):
As you know right now with time where it's a
very hostile environment, for the trans community.

Speaker 1 (24:04):
I mean, it's just twenty twenty five alone.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
There have been one hundred and nine anti trans bills
that have been passed so far in a variety of states,
and overall, I mean, just in the last few years,
there's been a total of nine hundred and fourteen that
have been on the table, which is.

Speaker 1 (24:21):
A staggering number.

Speaker 2 (24:24):
Given what this climate feels like now, and especially with
a lot of directives coming from the White House, particularly
about stopping the participation of trans girls in sports, what
does this climate feel.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
Like for you?

Speaker 5 (24:41):
It feels terrible. It feels it's like you're, you know,
living your day to day life. How everything is supposed
to be normal right now, but we all know we're
kind of living under like laate stage capitalism and like
fascism is that we're all like, are we really in
the Handmaid's Tale? But any minute now, but we should
be running, but do we have our passports? And like,

(25:01):
you know, being on a podcast, working my job every day,
but then also having that kind of invisible cloud of
that weight that just like sits on you and you
don't know why you're anxious sometimes and you kind of
have to remind yourself stay, don gaslight yourself, like, oh,
there's a lot of shit going on in the world,
like people don't I had a break down like probably
every once in a while. Same way about like being

(25:21):
black in America, It's like you have to have some
level of disassociation to like be able to get in
your car every time and drive to know like you
could be murdered driving down the street by the police. Right.
So in that same way, I feel like I have
to I'm fully like embodied as a trans person, and
I love that, but at times I have to like
box it out and not not believe that, like this

(25:44):
is the state of the world we're living in. And
so I had just break down the other day. It
was just like the country I live in and the
current administration and a lot of people like they just
don't want me to exist, Like they just don't literally
don't want people like me to exist. And to feel
that so viserabally, like as a black person and as
a transperson is something familiar and also something that is weighty.

(26:11):
It's like we just the same way black people, like
I just want to live, Like, can y'all just stop
lynching us, beating us, pulling us over like just let
us exist. And I feel that deeply as a transperson
is like we're literally just trying to exist and we're
actually like a gift to the world, Like we are
a gift in so many ways that we help people
see that you don't have to subscribe to all of

(26:31):
these oppressive gender notions that like you, actually we all
have a gender expression. We all have the ability to
put on whatever clothes we want every day, to be fluid,
to understand we all embody masculinity and femininity. But like
we have the audacity to show up in a world
right now that doesn't want us here, that wants to
erase us, and to still be like, no, I'm fucking here.

(26:55):
So at the end of the day, Like that's part
of what also gets me through the day, is like
I'm not going to be silenced up. Even though I'm
finding my balance, I'm still going to be like, now
you don't see me, I'm here.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
You also were very vocal about the fact that you
felt like the league was supportive, especially when you had
your your top surgery, and just generally overall that they have.

Speaker 1 (27:16):
Been behind you.

Speaker 2 (27:17):
But nevertheless, as someone as a player who's been in
multiple locker rooms. What is the conversation among the players
about the potential presence of more transgender people in the
WNBA or in the sport in general.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
What do those conversations sound like.

Speaker 5 (27:36):
So all of my teammates have been great. They've asked
amazing questions. They've asked them out of pocket questions. They've
asked them like you know, like I'm like, yeah, keep
it real because I appreciate that they'll like come up
through me and ask me the question, just be like, yo,
so what does this mean? Like, oh, when you take hormones,
how does that mean? What if it's this kind of
person like and like sharing the intimacy with people who

(27:57):
get to like know someone right, they get to be like, oh,
that's Lesia. I had one teammate in particular, Natalie A. Taumwa,
who's been like the most amazing teammate ally ever, who
before my mustache like had grown in when it was
just like a mustache women have usually shave off. She
was helping me. You know, we all been there, we
all know it's I can get a little bit. She
was like, oh, here, you'se my eyeliner pen. Had you

(28:20):
draw your eyebrows? In. This is like on media day
and she's like brushing in. I was like, oh my gosh,
Like having this moment in the bathroom like that meant
the world to me, you know, Like my teammate was
like saw me in a different level, was like, oh here,
let me help you the same way I picture eyebrows
or any part of you, like affirming your gender. We've
had internal trainings for educational sessions, which I intentionally said

(28:43):
like I shouldn't be a part of those because players
should have the space to ask any question in any
way that they need to ask it without like my
presence or wanting to offend me. So I haven't been
privy to those calls intentionally, which I think was really good.
So they could just be like, yo, that a man
coming to play in our league. Let's like let them
just feel out whatever it is, and then I know specifically,

(29:07):
there's been a couple of teammates who are people in
the league who've had questions. So it's been a lot
of like education, and that's what our league has always
been about. So it's been doing internal educational sessions to
be like, yeah, let's ask your questions. Let's understand why
We're only talking about the fear of a chance woman
coming into our league, right because I was accepted. I
was born I was a signed female at birth already.

(29:30):
So people are like, okay, laiser woman. I'm like I
got you know, I took my moves off, Like what's
the big deal, Like it's basically having a double mistectomy.
But this fear that, like, oh, someone was born a
man and they come to play in our league, there's
like this Joana man fear that all of a sudden
someone's going to come play. And one of the things
that I always tell them was like, you know, we
the women's game gets treated like shit, right, Like we

(29:52):
get paid less, we're on TV less. Like it's changing now,
but at the time, it's like people aren't signing up
to come play in our league from first and foremost
because we're not treated as well. We just started chartering
last year and this year we're still underpaid. Right, The
fan base is getting better, all those things are getting better,
but like the last point is like signing up to

(30:13):
be a trans person, you don't just do it for fun,
Like you see what our country is doing. You see
the attack on trans folks. So people aren't just like,
you know what, let me just be trans todated, like
go play in the WNBA, like make some money and
have fun. Like it's grueling what our country does to
trans people, like the suicide rates are higher, the rates

(30:33):
of murder are extremely high among trans women, domestic abuse,
and so well, I love being trans on who I am.
I'm like, these boys are not signing up to come
be in our league. And so it's that fear mongering
myth that gets us so stuck in those conversations that
we don't even have, like the very real conversations of like, okay,
what are we talking about in sport and competitive advantage

(30:56):
and the fact that Lebron James is three times bigger
than Steph Curry and has more muscle mass than him,
and we love competitive advantage in sports until we start
talking about trans people, or until trans people start winning
at their sports, then we want to start kind of
having this attack. And so that's been an interesting conversations
to have, and I've had some teammates who have just

(31:17):
been like, I'm not having this conversation, like I love
that part of the w that has been like we
accept people in our league, like I'm not getting caught
in your what's the word like debate of this debate.

Speaker 2 (31:31):
You know, I'm glad that you said that because I
have often had to remind people Juana Man was not
a documentary, okay, because they literally I'm like, do you
realize that given the level as you mentioned, the layers
of attacks and what you would actually sign up for
to do this? And we've seen this with other you know,

(31:52):
we saw look at Nobody's dot nobody's begging to be
Leah Thomas, Like nobody wants to sign up for that.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
And that's no.

Speaker 2 (31:59):
Excuse for the level of bigotry and transphobia that she's faced.
But it is to say that I think there's a
lot of frankly heterosexuals who have this idea that while hey,
plany sports of being a professional is great, but you
can't sit up here and tell me that a man
is just gonna all of a sudden decide like, hey,
guess what it's like.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
It ain't that also.

Speaker 5 (32:22):
He would be better or good enough. It's like that
underlying misogyny of just like y'all really think you could
just step on the court and meet us first of all,
like we play against practice guys every day too, So
like these every day bros off the street that think
they're just gonna be like, yeah, I'm gonna put a
jerzy on and come hoop, Like come watch the practice
film tape and see us marking these boys out here.

Speaker 2 (32:42):
But you know, nevertheless, it's great because one thing I
do like more about it is the fact when women
are actually having this conversation with each other, because if
it's something that's going to be impacting women's sports, as
who should be having it. That being said, I've had
this same conversation with other professional athletes, female athletes across
a variety you know, of sports, and I think many

(33:07):
of them like that was interesting that you said that
you didn't want to be a part of those conversations
because you wanted the other players to be able to
voice how they felt. And what is really interesting in
talking to the female athletes that I have is that
when it comes to, as you mentioned, the competitive advantage part,
the how will people accept it or take it? Among women,

(33:32):
about what would happen if someone who was a trans
woman won something that they also wanted to win. And
then that's when the conversation gets really interesting. When it
becomes about competing for the same you know things. So
as you have heard it in those conversations, I guess
the people that worry that, like, oh, they have this

(33:54):
competitive advantage, I would have been good enough.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
You know that, that whole line of thinking.

Speaker 2 (33:59):
What sort of your response to that, to the people
that worry that you know it will impact people's livelihoods
in a negative way.

Speaker 5 (34:08):
Well, one, I would say that there's so many policies
in place for even being able to compete. So there's
an NC double a policy that you have to be
in sort of hormonal ranges. So it's again that people
hate the right and all this fear mongering that like
chance people are coming to take your scholarships, you're in

(34:29):
il deals, your track scholarships you earned or didn't even earn.
You can't talk about the ra We need to talk
about the racial implications of all this too, is that
sports is an inherently competitive space. So one I think
if you really believe that you're good enough to compete,
like let's say I'm playing against Mecca, Like Mecca's out

(34:51):
rebounding me, okay, because Neca's bigger than me, it's not fair,
Like she can jump higher than me. She's stronger than me,
like pound for pound. At the end of the day,
I don't know, you know, I'm not gonna I'm gonna
take some of it from her. But at the end
of the day, she has a competitive advantage over me,
because that's what sport is. It's inherently talent. It's you know,

(35:11):
Michael Phelps having an advantage with disability to process lactic acid.
And so my question is always like why why with
trans people? Why what is the underlying fear that like,
all of a sudden, this trans person comes in and
they're like this Joana man, this monster, this big mythical
person or creature who all of a sudden, like I

(35:33):
didn't grow, like I didn't become like I was still
the same lasion that got to play basketball at the
end of the day. And so I think people really
need to check their transphobia at the end of the
day that like one understand that there's policies in place,
so you have to there's a rigorous amount of policies
and testing that you have to go through in order
to play in college sports for the professionals, and then

(35:56):
absolutely at the Olympics, you can't take you can't take
niques and competing Olympics like they are crazy about their
level of testing. And so understand that first and foremost
is that that's in place. So there are protections in place,
there's there's levels. Different leagues have different policies in place.
I know the NWSL has one. So with that being said,

(36:19):
if there's policies in place, I would ask people the
question and like, then what are you afraid of? Like
what's the competitive advantage that someone has over you? Like
is it the same competitive vantage that necket has over
me or BG has over another player because BG sticks
eight and I'm five to nine, like you know, like
they inherently exist in sports, And so I think that's

(36:41):
the kind of thing to come back to. And the
question that I asked is like what is it? And
is it our chance? Like we're being fed this narrative
over and over and over and over again. The trans
people are like coming to a thief in the night
and we're coming in your bathrooms. It's like we're just
trying to pee, We're just trying to play sports, we're
just trying to live. We're just trying to walk down
the street, like like, let us live. You know, at

(37:05):
the end of the day, we just want to live
and play sports, and sports is such a space that's
like it has helped me belong, it has helped me
feel loved, It's helped me have community, It's helped me
learn how to work through conflict. Like it's I get
really insensed about the fact that, like young people are
being taken the advantage to play sports from young people's
being taken away. We're talking about six, seven, eight year olds,

(37:27):
a nine year old playing soccer when the statistics of
going pro are like point point point point whatever, tiny,
Like you're not going to become professional in your sport.
It's very rare. And so the fact that we're doing
this to young people who just want to be a
nine year old who wants to play soccer is insane.
It's ludicrous. And the last point I will make is

(37:50):
it's really important to note that, like be mindful because
those same attack, those same narratives that are being used
to attack trans people are going to end up hurting women,
and they already are and we're already seeing it hurting
women in terms of our access to reproductive care, women
being gender tested or being asked to pull their pants
down when they're straight c this women and it's like

(38:11):
they're looking left right now, like why do I have
to do this? Like, because that's what you're signing up for.
If we're going to want to gender test people or
want to make sure people are assigned the gender that
they are, like, you're going to be scrutinized to that
same degree as well. And so the fact that women's
sports is the like rock that this whole narrative is

(38:32):
standing on. Instead of the investment in women's sports, in
women's coaching leagues, in more youth leagues, you know, the
term the terps out there, like people who believe in
that they're probably gonna be all in our DMS now
after this conversation, is really the people that believe that
we need to invest more in women's sports. I think
that's the most like insensing part of all of this

(38:55):
is that we're all actually on the same team. We're
all the ones marginalized gender as women as an umbrella
term on this side for sport.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
So yeah, I've said that a thousand times.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
It's like, no protecting women's sports would be investing in them,
would be making sure that they have equitable treatment, equitable resources,
Like that's how you protect.

Speaker 5 (39:16):
Women's sports, Yeah, people who want to play, Yeah, not by.

Speaker 1 (39:21):
Doing it this way.

Speaker 2 (39:22):
But I nevertheless, I do have a lot of questions
to ask you about investment and especially about this upcoming
collective bargaining negotiations since you were part.

Speaker 1 (39:31):
Of the last one.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
So definitely we need to that, I know, right, all
your favorite topics. But we're just going to take a
very quick break and we'll be back with more with
Lesia Clarendon. So before we took a break, Leisia, we

(39:53):
were talking about investment and this next collective bargaining agreement
with the players and the league.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
It I mean, I think it's fair.

Speaker 2 (40:04):
To say it's probably the most critical one that we've
probably seen. You went through the last one as a
major voice within those negotiations. This time around, you won't
be part of the league, but I'm sure you obviously
probably have major opinions and and you know, known as

(40:25):
far as you see it, What are some of the
issues that the w n b A has to settle
with players in order to continue this momentum that the
league has built.

Speaker 5 (40:36):
Oh god, yeah, give me flashbacks from the all on negotiations. Yeah,
I'm not internally involved anymore, but I can just see
even from the outside end having known. I mean, it's
definitely their salary issues still on the table. There are
charter issues flying, how we travel, scheduling, how many games

(40:57):
can be added. Player safety is always a big topic
with how many games you're asking players to play in
a short amount of time. It's like chartering has helped
the quality of getting around and what it does the
toll on your body. I think the new media right
still has been really interesting that happened within the within
this year, and so does that translate to more money?

(41:18):
So I think stalary is going to be the really
big question of like, is this the CBA that blows
it out of the water. Are we hitting that number
where we're like, oh, we've gotten there. I know on
the last CBA we did a lot of protections for
moms and for pregnancy and forgetting your full salary. So
I'd be curious how they kind of robustly bumped those up,

(41:39):
or do they, you know, change the childcare stipends a
little bit higher, those kind of things. I'm trying to
think of what else was in it. It really traveled
player safety and conversation are like the big big ones.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
I would recently was in conversation with Kennas Parker and
this was something small that I didn't realize. And I
don't know that this isn't necessarily a collect bargaining issue,
but just to I think it's one of those things
that when you say to people just so they understand
how far the WNBA still has to come. Kennis Parker,
you know, she finished her career with the Las Vegas
ass She said it was the first time in her

(42:14):
WNBA career that she ever had her own locker, and
that was crazy to me. Yeah, and a lot of
people do not realize that because you all are often
you're not training at your own practice facilities, like most
teams do not have those. The Aces one of the
few because they have new ownership. They poured a lot
of money into the aces. But something like that is

(42:35):
just mind boggling, Like you don't have your own locker,
so every time you go practice, you got to take
all your shit and go in the same with the games.

Speaker 5 (42:44):
It's like, what terrible? Yeah, and it depends on what team.
I remember hearing that comment from Cannas too. And I
was even surprised, and I was like, oh, she played
for LA. I was like, well, what you also played
for Yeah, my last two years. Yes, And I was
fortunate to play for some of the best organizations in
the league. I played for New York who was just

(43:04):
had redone their entire locker room. Minnesota is one of
the best and has been one of the best for
quite a while with their locker room and their situation
there got I was drafted to Indiana. So Indiana has
been one of the best from day one in terms
of like NBA ownership. So you're all in San Arena.
You could drive to the xamp whatever time you want,

(43:25):
hit you a little key card, go get shot up
at midnight. So you have that vascillation in the league
of like you're going to the indianas the Minnesota is
the New York. Someone's going to get their feelings hurt.
I left them out, you know, the Phoenix, the Seattle
who just did a really big practice facility, the Valkyries
who have theirs now. So I think you're starting to
see like more teams than not are on the trend

(43:46):
of like having your own facility than the teams that don't,
and the ones that don't are starting to announce, Oh,
we got to start getting ours bill. Like I think
Chicago is going to start building theirs because it's going
to matter and free agency. People want to go play.
We're like they have a good quality of life where
they're not picking their stuff up every day to travel
it here and there. When I played for Atlanta, God,

(44:06):
we were practicing on some w rec facility where we
had to like showering with the old ladies over there,
and that was getting their little workouts in. You know,
just that level of I would say, lack of professionalism
and a level of dignity that you want to do
your job as a professional. And so in the last CBA,
that was the like kind of getting us back. I

(44:28):
think to some baseline dignities that we tried to do,
Like let's at the stage for this next one which
we're in now, which came quickly. Let's make sure this
has some good qualities. Before the last CBA, people were
sharing their own rooms. People had to share a room
until you were five or six years of service. So
now everybody gets their own room. Remember the last couple
of years, it was Zion Cook. If she was in

(44:49):
LA and they're like getting their own room or like yes,
Like I was so proud and happy to be like
you deserve to go to your own room after practice,
Cameron brig when we were charged with the charter announcement,
I got a call from our GM and I was like,
oh my god, this is not real. And Cameron was like,
I can't believe it. She was all like, but you
guys didn't get this and foss so hard and I

(45:10):
was like, girl, we bought hard so you could have it,
Like no, we don't want you to suffer. That's not like,
that's not what our league is about, being like we
had to do it, so y'all need to do it.
We're like, no, you take it to the next level,
like get that bedroom, take that nil money, grow our league,
Like I want to see it to a place where
it's experiencing things that I never could have imagined. But

(45:30):
I was a part of one of those bricks in
the same way Lisa Leslie was a brick so I
could play in it, like can't. Tamika Catchings was one
of the best players to ever play the game of basketball.
I played with her in Indiana. She never charted like
super didn't get to charge her last season, Like I
actually I text both of them the day we got

(45:52):
charges that was like, yo, I appreciate both of you
the fact that we're getting this now and you never
did in your entire career, Like there's things going to
get But I was a shoulder like stand on my shoulders.
Let's stay while I'm standing on other people's shoulders. So
I think that's the big part of what this CBA
growth is going to be when it comes out, Like
I'm gonna be sitting at home crying, clapping reading. They

(46:12):
had all the announcements to be like yes, go, go,
go go now.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Now people know that the WNBA, they have a well
deserved reputation of being a league full of women who
are not afraid to speak out, not afraid to participate socially,
politically or rather in social justice issues, political issues, you
being one of the major key voices, and so you know,
obviously in the bubble you had the Sayer name campaign

(46:37):
about Breonna Taylor, there was a lot going on. You
all essentially changed history by organizing to get Reverend Rafael
warneck Warnock elected in Georgia once the league got behind him,
now seeing given that DNA that runs to the WNBA,
you know, now that there's more money, there's going to

(46:58):
be expectations to keep that money going in. And we
know how people can feel about sports and politics mixing together.
How concerned are you that the WNBA that spirit of
community of fighting for what's right.

Speaker 1 (47:16):
Are you worried at all that with this.

Speaker 2 (47:18):
New influx of money and capital that thought that part
of the league's DNA begins to change.

Speaker 5 (47:25):
Ooh, you nailed it. That's what I was going to say,
was capitalism and the league coming in. I do have
some concerns. I never want to be that player who's like,
now I'm retired. I'm like, yeah, these young kids, you know,
they're not doing what we did back in the day.
But money does change things, and I think there's more
on the line that's being risked, and we risk a

(47:46):
lot risk our salaries in twenty twenty bubble risks, you know,
our careers in some ways for speaking out if people
didn't like that, talking about the anthem people blowing up
our dms and talking about patriotism and all this stuff.
I think there's I think the w is on this
precipice where we have to be really careful, like we're

(48:07):
teetering on the growth of the league and not losing
the recipes that made us who we are, like not
losing the sauce, and that happens with every generation, like
the oral histories of it, the like making sure people
watch the power of the dream so they understand like
why our league is where it's at. I know last
year when I was in LA, one of our dobos

(48:30):
was like, I don't know that the rookies have even
seen the power of the dream. Like I feel like
we should make them sit down and watch it and
like have a like a day for like a team event.
So I think in that way, we do have to
be careful of losing kind of the soft of what
God is here. On another hand or another point, I
think it's really beautiful that like players are getting paid

(48:52):
to show up and play basketball. I think that's like
there's so much social justice and the fact that these
women are finally getting their coins, like they're getting their
money out here, so like, yes, I don't want them
to lose, like the DNA and the sneaking out and
the talking about it, and in Summon says, I'm like, yeah,
like Asia, get your money, get your shoe, like get

(49:12):
what you deserve if you were overdue for that for
however many years. And so there's justice in I think
that pay gap being shortened, like in those types of
players making the money now that they don't have to
think about going overseas, the fact that they get to
stay home, that they can't start businesses, the like do
they get to start, you know, venture businesses in ways

(49:34):
that they did it before. Subberg gets to walk off
in her career now and start everything she's done with
a touch more and with her podcast, and so in
that way, I think there's so much beauty in it
too that the players are getting paid. So I don't
want to be like capitalism is all evil, the devil,
but at the same time, I do know, you know,
when more is on the line and there's more people
to talk and there's more pressure in the commissioner and

(49:57):
particular I think around GAZA has been interesting that you
I haven't seen as many players kind of speak out.
That's been a really like volatile issue the way people
have framed anti Semitism in terms of folks speaking out
for Gaza. It's flipped a switch. I think that's an
issue that you've only seen I think myself, cloud like

(50:17):
a handful of players really really touch on it. I
think that's been fascinating, and there's been a lot. I
think there's some fear around the repercussions of what we're
seeing in our country right now, not.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
Just with Gaza, but would you say that extends to
other topics, Because one thing I certainly noticed was in
this election cycle, the presidential election cycle, that while there
is a very unique.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
Circumstance of all of you all being in a bubble.

Speaker 2 (50:44):
Right so you're able to organize, and it was going
to look different, and certainly with just the year the
country had overall, it was just a different time in
a different moment. But it seemed and I don't know
if it was just my perception or if you felt
it was reality, but there seem to be it seemed
to be a lot quieter around this past presidential election

(51:07):
among WNBA players then it was four years prior. So
is it just about the subject matter? You think in
general that there has been a lot more reluctance among
your colleagues to speak out.

Speaker 5 (51:21):
I think there's another point is that we're also exhausted
like as black women who've been fighting this fight. I
know when I came out of twenty twenty, I think
there could be some reluctance there. But coming out of
what we've done in the last whatever four year cycle
with the bubble and Warnock being all together. One, it's

(51:42):
hard to organize when you're not all in the same place. Two,
the level of engagement has been hard. The last couple
of years, even for myself, has been like we got
this other call like okay, well what we doing today?
The like we flipped the seat and then it was
like the next year. The next day, everyone's like, what
do you guys doing next? And we're like kidding me.

(52:02):
We just slip the sentence, like what are y'all doing?
Like we're tired? Like girls. I think there, I think
there is a level of like I don't want to
dismiss the fear of the capitalism, but there is some
of just like God, what more can the w also do? Right?
Like we can't, we can't give y'all like Asia Wilson
the next president, like we done you know how black

(52:22):
people are feeling right now, just like y'all got somebody
else got to pick this up. NBA MLB like HL like,
I need y'all to carry the torch because we're doing
a lot and we need to take a nap. So
I think you cannot discount that aspect of it too.
And I lived and breathed it after the bubble season
was just like an exhaustion, and you have to find,

(52:46):
I think internally, when when certain players need to step back,
but then other people still stepping forward. And I think
that's the recipe. Is the W as a whole is
like how do you continue to have organizing be a
part of the DNA. So they started the Jedi Community,
the committee on the union side, and so having the

(53:08):
Social Justice Council, Like how do you continue to how
do you sustain organizing? That's a question that organizers have
been asking, like over generations, and so I think that's
partly what you're seeing with the W two is like,
how do we sustain these organizing efforts while also playing
while also being in the midst of the CBA season,
which that's organizing in and of itself. And so I

(53:30):
give a lot of grace in that perspective too, for
the league and the players and where they're at, because
so much energy I know is going towards those calls
right now. And there's one player I need a shout
on in particular who has never lost the stops and
who has always spoken out. And Brianna Turner, she has
been like for trans rights, has had we never played together,
she had me in her shoe one day, Like, she's

(53:52):
that person who is always speaking out no matter what,
talking about it. She's been about it since day one.
So shout out to her.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
So you have been somebody who has always seemingly embraced
this idea that as an athlete, you wanted the responsibility
to carry the responsibility of using your platform, your position
to discuss social issues, to be on the front lines
when it came to, you know, supporting those you know, community.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
Issues that you care about.

Speaker 2 (54:24):
How did that relationship evolve because this seems like something
that was always you. So how did this kind of
come to be where you were embracing being an athlete activist?

Speaker 5 (54:34):
Yeah, I mean it started in college. So much of
it is really connected to my faith too. In college,
I like cut my hair into blonde mohawk. I uh,
I was like found Jesus up here in Berkeley of
all the places, and really, so much of feeling good

(54:57):
at myself has like come from my faith and come
from my relationship with God. And I believe I'm integrating
all my faith and like astrology and Buddhism and Christianity
and of course all the ways very like non binary
of me to not pick aside and be in the
middle of it. And so really I find this the

(55:20):
more internal work that I do and wrestling with myself
or my identity or the things that I've been through,
I know that there's other people that struggle with this too.
So it's always kind of started for me internally and
then I'm like, oh, I'm struggling with this, Like I
know I'm not alone in this, and so it's kind
of turned into an outward thing. Happened to be also
an athlete, and so my senior year I just was

(55:44):
feeling really good about being gay and Christian. And that's
something I struggled with all through college, was like, can
I be gay? Can I be Christian?

Speaker 1 (55:51):
Like?

Speaker 5 (55:53):
Is this a thing? Like I don't really see them anywhere.
This is back in two thousand and nine to thirteen.
I don't see these things existing together. And so once
I once basically got was like, girl, you're good. I
made you to be this way, Like you're lovable, you're perfect,
beyond measure. I was like, oh, like, y'all can't tell
me nothing. So for me, that kind of burst in

(56:14):
the doors open and going into my rookie year in
Indiana at that point, I just was like, oh, I'm
gonna speak out from day one. And so when they
asked me, like, what do you want to talk about,
it was like anything everything gay, Like I'm the queer
kid with the blonde mohawk moving to Indiana of all places,
which is wild. Mike Pens was the governor at the time,

(56:36):
Like God, God, and I just had this this audacity
and this belief and like so much of it just
comes from internally that like part of my mission in
this world, I know unequivocally is to go through things
that sit in attention, like hold and wrestle with tension

(57:00):
and be able to like hold like the both end
of things Like I can do that. I literally do
it in my body as a non binary person. I've
done it as a biracial person my whole life, and
so doing that in sports just came really natural to me.
And I don't think when I was young, I realized
how much I was risking. I don't think I realized,

(57:22):
you know, you're young and on fire, and like I
got this that looking back, I see some of the
emails that I've sent internally to some of our coaches
around some racial things that I wanted to talk about.
Like I was like Stephanie White was my coach at
the time, and a few of the coaches, and I
saw an email that was like, Hey, I really want
to talk about this, like I'm feeling upset. I think

(57:43):
it was I can't remember the name a person who
was murdered unfortunately at the time, and I was so
angry that I had this all white coaching staff that
we were just going to practice like normal, like are
we going to talk about I was kind of looking
left and right like are we going to talk about this?
What's up? And that even that went really well with
my coaching staff. Yeah. I ended up being Grand Marshall

(58:03):
for Indiana Pride Parade, and I think he was a
fourteen or fifteen. I think it was fourteen, and so
it's just been inherent to who I am. And I
think I had some missed opportunities in college to use
my power the way I could have. I was the
best player on the team. I'd come out. I wanted
to make March LGBT Awareness month, and essentially that got

(58:25):
squashed by my coaching staff. They were like, don't be
the gay kid. People are going to use it against you.
And so when I got to Lee, I was like,
I'm the gay kid, and that's become my brand and
it's just kind of sprinted and run off ever since
then and just been just a part of my DNA
unto I am.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
How much is this related to and you wrote an
amazing first person piece about this. How much is this
related to the fact that part of your coming out
story is having to advocate with your own parents about
what your identity was. So I guess because you in

(59:02):
your own home, you know you had parents that initially
were not accepting of of who you are. So how
much do you think that played a role into you
developing this pattern of standing.

Speaker 1 (59:15):
Up for yourself?

Speaker 5 (59:15):
You just like therapy unlocked in the whole nother like
hold on, I need a moment with that. And also
what came up was like all my life I had
to fight.

Speaker 1 (59:29):
In your case, it's literally true.

Speaker 5 (59:31):
It's like, yeah, you gotta have Yeah, that's a great,
I mean way to put it. Yeah, I had to
fight for I mean, I have an older sister who
was out in and didn't go very well, so I
knew very clearly from my parents was like okay, noted,
be back into that closet until it's safe. I've always

(59:52):
had to advocate for myself. Yeah, from the very beginning
with my parents, with them accepting me for who I am.
So it's put a deep sense of belief in myself
of like, it doesn't matter how many external factors, even
from like your parents to whoever may be a pastor,
this person is like, you know who you are. And

(01:00:13):
that for me is when my faith got reassured and
I got my own relationship with God that I was
felt unstoppable in that sense and felt like, yeah, y'all
can say whatever you got to say, because I'm out
here in these streets. I know what's up. But yeah,
I had to fight with my parents, deal with in
college get to the point of being a pro believing

(01:00:34):
in myself, believing that I am worthy and deserving to
be the fullness of who I am unequivocally one hundred
percent and that's the belief that I've had to have
in myself and to fight and advocate for for years
and years and years, and to continue to pill back
the layers of who I am in order to just

(01:00:54):
be authentically me, like a hundred percent.

Speaker 2 (01:00:56):
I don't want to end this podcast without talking about
your foundation, which I know is very important to you.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
What was your motivation in starting that?

Speaker 5 (01:01:06):
It was having top surgery, being someone who has health
insurance and still paying Helen money out of pocket and
realizing how difficult it is in our healthcare system. So I,
in partnership with the didas it's one of my sponsors,
was like, Yo, giving money to kids for basketball is
all great and dandy. A lot of folks do that
and run their travel ball teams. So I was like,
I want to give my money to black and brown

(01:01:27):
trans people so they can have gender firm and care.
And so again born from my internal struggle of like,
I'm going through this thing. I know I'm not alone
in it, Excuse me, So how do I how do
I give back to other people that are also going
through with the platform and the resources that I have,
And so I partnered with the Oakland LGBT Center, which
is where I live up here, and we've since given

(01:01:50):
away like giving them grants and are like directly impacting
affecting people getting access to the gender firm and care
they need, which is like I will just fall crying
because it's life changing and to feel good in your
body and to get like the hardest decision should be
oh okay, like I want this surgery or I need
this affirmation, but then you have to go through so
many hoops and buckery essentially to actually get the care

(01:02:16):
that you need. And so my foundation is focused on
like getting people that those funds and that access as
easily as possible.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
Yeah, because I don't think most people are aware of
like how expensive this gender affirming care actually is, and
I my guess is that a lot of healthcare providers
do not cover you know, a lot of it.

Speaker 5 (01:02:35):
Yeah, we have to go out a network. Or I
wanted a black surgeon because I went to a surgeon
that could not tell me anything about melanated skin, Like, well,
I was asking them questions like how are we we
scar differently? Or am I going to keyloid? And they're like, oh,
like so I actually went out of network in order
to get a black surgeon, so I still got even
less of it covered. To say. Factor that part of

(01:02:56):
it in getting gender firming care with all the layers
of all the people that we are. And that's another
factor too.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
All right, Well, I end every podcast with what I
call the messy question.

Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
This is where we make some headlines.

Speaker 5 (01:03:10):
Latsh.

Speaker 1 (01:03:10):
This is how I'm good. All right.

Speaker 2 (01:03:16):
If I haven't already asked you enough questions, you got
you got more in you.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
I know that you do. So here's the messy question.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
Okay, who is the most irritating player in the NBA
from a basketball standpoint for you to guard? I mean, like,
who is the player that when you saw you had
the gartham of that night of that day, like, damn
not her tonight?

Speaker 1 (01:03:38):
Who is it.

Speaker 5 (01:03:40):
Annoying? Irritated? Oh? Oh, it's probably Jewe Lloyd because you
can't touch her. It was jeweloid last year. You touch
her and they blowed the West. So I'm like, okay, fine, fine, fine.
I was happy as a black person at least I'll
give her that. I was like, all right, we got
a black person who's untouchable. I'm happy, But I.

Speaker 2 (01:03:57):
Was that was there some thing that Juel does that.
You know, she just gets all the calls.

Speaker 1 (01:04:04):
Is that what it is? She gets a lot of calls.

Speaker 5 (01:04:05):
Yeah, she gets calls. Jewel is. Actually she's so good
at kind of you have to hot stover and I
like to play physical, So she anytime you're arm in her,
she's gonna rip through and draw the foul. She's gonna
get to her shot going left. I'm trying to force
the right. So she she's smart. She knows all the trickeries.
They don't call her the mama for anything. So playing her,
I'm like, Okay, I want to play physical, but I

(01:04:26):
can't foul. But I'm playing a person who knows I
like to play physical and it's going to try and
draw fouls on me. So it's that kind of chest
matt and then she's just good at the end of
the day. So it was really fun for me. It
was also like, all right, she I can't I can't
bump her, she can't take no context like that level
of like.

Speaker 2 (01:04:46):
Oh, follow up, who's the player that you felt like
you most came close to swinging.

Speaker 5 (01:04:51):
All Alyssa thommas she I be She get said a
lot not the first no no when I knocked her
down against Connecticut. I was like, oh, I'm not to
step over. She's gonna be pissed, and she was. And
then that's when me, Aaron Demana got into it, and

(01:05:11):
I'm walking for Umana. I was like, okay, it's a
whole family affair. Now.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
Well, these are the memories you are left with now
you are og retired. I know that must feel strange
to say, because you're still young, you know, and you're
you're already retired. But I just want to thank you
so much for joining me and as always, for your activism,
your candor, and for just being so fearless. And I

(01:05:40):
know the fearlessness comes with a cost, and it's the
cost that people don't see.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
But nevertheless, you know, you are.

Speaker 2 (01:05:48):
Very much speaking for a lot of people who right
now are under attack, who are feeling unwanted, who are
feeling as if their country is turning against them. So
I'm sure hearing and seeing you boldly take the position
that you have has been.

Speaker 1 (01:06:04):
Very impactful for them.

Speaker 5 (01:06:06):
Yeah, thank you, I appreciate you.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
All right, take care of retiring.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
One more segment to go coming up next, the final spin.

Speaker 1 (01:06:28):
Time for the final spin.

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
This week's topic the Memphis Grizzlies trading Desmond Banged to
the Orlando Magic. The spin the Magic got fleeced. Now
the truth Orlando did the right thing. Now on his face,
it seems like the Magic gave up a lot a
twenty twenty six pick swap the highest spot of the
Magic Suns or Wizards, two unprotected first round picks in

(01:06:50):
eight and twenty thirty, and a twenty twenty nine first rounder.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
But with emerging superstar Apolo Ben, Carrol.

Speaker 2 (01:06:56):
Mol Wagner, and now Bang, the Magic are thinking there'll
be a playoff team for the next four to five years,
so most of those first round picks Memphis received they
won't be in the lottery, at least they hope. They're
also looking at how wide open the East could potentially
be next season. Bain is a good player, and more importantly,
he will dramatically improve Orlando's offense, especially when it comes

(01:07:17):
to three point shooting. Now, I don't know if the
Magic won the trade, but this is one of those
trades that's going to look a lot better over the
course of the next two season. Pay attention now. This
concludes another episode as politics. Make sure you get at
me on social media or email. I'm at Jamil Hill
across all social media platforms Twitter, Instagram, Fan based, Blue Sky,

(01:07:39):
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You can also video me a question, but please make
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Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
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Speaker 2 (01:08:05):
A new episode of Spolitics drops every Thursday on iHeart Podcasts,
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Speaker 1 (01:08:10):
Or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 (01:08:12):
This is politics where sports and politics don't just mix,
They matter.

Speaker 1 (01:08:22):
Politics is the.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
Production of iHeart Podcasts and The Unbothered Network. I'm your
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