Ep 40: The Politics of The Comprehensive Man - Featuring Jason Wilson

On this week's filibuster, Jemele shares her thoughts on two-time NL MVP Bryce Harper confronting MLB commissioner Rob Manfred when Manfred surfaced the possibility of a salary cap in baseball. Jemele is then joined by author Jason Wilson, who has gained international acclaim for his groundbreaking, Detroit-based transformational training academy, which uses martial arts to teach at-risk boys healthy emotional expression and regulation. In this candid, wide-ranging discussion, Jason explains some of the mental health issues he’s counseled athletes about, how many boys and men live in a state of emotional incarceration, and his thoughts on whether there is a male loneliness epidemic.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's up everybody. I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to politics.
And I heard podcasts and unbothered production. Time to get spolitical.
Bryce Harper just lived out of fantasy that a lot
of Americans have. And now I'm not talking about having

(00:23):
millions of dollars and being a professional athlete at the
highest level. This man actually cussed out his boss from
ESPN Baseball insider Jeff Passon Philadelphia Philly star Bryce Harper
std Noson knows Rob Manford during a meeting between the
Major League Baseball Commissioner and the team last week, telling
him to quote, get the fuck out of our clubhouse.

(00:45):
If Manford wanted to talk about the potential implementation of
a salary cap, well damn.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Now.

Speaker 1 (00:51):
This conversation is very noteworthy because it is definitely foreshadowing
the fight that's expected to take place between Major League
Baseball owners and players next December, when their collective bargaining
agreement expires. Major League Baseball is the only North American
sport that doesn't have a salary cap, and in recent years,
Manford has been going around to various ball clubs trying

(01:11):
to sell the players that for the growth of the
game and their own salaries. They need a salary cap.
Now Madford might have had an easier time trying to
sell ketchup popsicles to a man in white gloves, because
history has shown that when it comes to instituting a
salary cap, the players are willing to take it to
the mat.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Remember what happened in nineteen ninety four.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
The season was officially canceled with a press release issued
by Major League Baseball, supported by the signatures of every
team but two, the Baltimore Orioles and the Cincinnati read
later as a fitting symbol of how far apart the
players and owners are. But the Oligan Donald Deer held
news conferences in two separate city each reminding us of
the reason there will be no World Series the salary cap.

Speaker 4 (01:56):
Like a lot of things in life, you anticipate something
and fear that it's coming, hope.

Speaker 5 (02:04):
That it isn't, and when the day just here, there's
an incredible amount of sadness. There appeared to be no urgency,

(02:25):
no desire to go to any extraordinary lengths to find
an agreement, every reason to believe, given the calmness with
which this announcement was preceded, that this was something the
owners had long since weeks if not months ago, come

(02:45):
to accept as necessary.

Speaker 2 (02:47):
And then there was twenty twenty one.

Speaker 5 (02:50):
You're like baseball's collective bargaining has expired and the owners
have locked out of the players until the new deal
has worked out.

Speaker 2 (02:57):
Marshall Harris joins us, and it's been months in the
making and it could take months to result it.

Speaker 4 (03:01):
Everyone just needs to buckle in.

Speaker 6 (03:03):
It's baseball's first work stoppage in twenty six years, the
owners locking out players to avoid another strike, which the
sport would be susceptible to without a new CBA. Now,
the players union wants to expand salary arbitration earlier free
agency for its players. Rob Manfred said the lockout is
MLB's only tool to speed up the negotiations.

Speaker 4 (03:25):
I think we're in a process.

Speaker 2 (03:28):
I'm prepared to continue that process, and I'm optimistic that
we're going to get a deal.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
The twenty twenty one lockout resulted in a ninety nine
day work stoppage, the nice such stoppage in baseball's history.
When the current CBA expires, many expect it will lead
to another lockout, including Major League Baseball Players Union Executive
director Tony Clark, who said in the spring, unless I
am mistaken, the league has come out and said there's
going to be a work stoppage. So I don't think

(03:55):
I'm speaking out of school in that regard. Sounds like
a tenth works stoleage is on the horizon. But here's
the real question. Does baseball indeed need a salary cap
if they want to thrive? Well, it depends on who
you ask. If you ask Manfred, of course the answer
is yes. Mafford has told the players that their salaries

(04:16):
would be two billion dollars higher if they would have
agreed to a fifty to fifty revenue share and a
salary cap twenty years ago. Mafford also claimed that during
that span, baseball player salaries have grown the slowest among
the four major professional sports. Now, even though we've recently
seen Juan Soto sign a seven hundred and sixty five
million dollar deal and Sho hal Tani signed a seven

(04:39):
hundred million dollar contract, Madford has told players that ten
percent of the players earned seventy two percent of the money.
In that ten percent class is Bryce Harper, who is
on a thirteen year, three hundred and thirty million dollar deal. Now,
if there is anything I've learned from observing labor strife
between players and owners, is that the numbers usually floated

(04:59):
by the league, let's just say, you often have to
take them with a grain of salt, and it's important
to recognize what their strategy is. Now in labor negotiations,
it's not uncommon for players to undermine themselves, and certainly
Manford and other baseball owners notice that. When the players
agreed to the new CBA in twenty twenty two, the
players Union's eight member executive subcommittee voted against the current CBA,

(05:24):
but the majority of the player representatives voted to accept
the deal. Now, that probably gave man For some hope
that there are at least some players who might be
willing to abandon the union's historical position of being against
a salary cap. But here's the thing I'm not being
on taking it easy on billionaires. The owners are looking
at these escalating player salaries and even if it's just

(05:47):
among the ten percent, they are clutching their pocketbooks.

Speaker 2 (05:51):
Now. They claim it's.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
About establishing competitive balance, but there have been nine different
World Series winners in the last decade. They haven't had
a repeat champions since the Yankees in the late nineteen
nineties early two thousands. To argument for a cap always
centers around small market teams. How are they supposed to
compete with the bottomless checkbooks of the New York Yankees
and the Los Angeles Dodgers. Well, last year, my Detroit Tigers,

(06:15):
they made it to the Divisional round of the playoffs,
even though Ohio State's football team had a higher.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Pay role than they did.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Now, I would argue that not having a cap gives
small market teams a better chance to compete. I mean,
if the money is all relative, if it's all basically equal,
then a player is definitely going to pick the hippos
city and the biggest media market. If this is just
a matter of spending, then suddenly some teams will be
in the mix that weren't before because the highest bidder wins.

(06:44):
Now we've seen this at the college level. It's all
about whether or not you can present the best nil pack.
That's how Ruggers Basketball wound up with two top five
draft picks on the same team, and the talent becomes
much more widespread. It's not the fault of the players
that some own owners in smaller markets would rather make
a profit over building a championship.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
That's an issue of mentality, not of money.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
Just this history has taught us that baseball players will
fight tooth and nail against the cap. History has also
shown us that when you concede to owners, you never
regain that leverage. I'm Jamel Hill, and I approved this message.
Today's podcast is really special to me because I get
to be in conversation with one of my absolute favorite people.

Speaker 2 (07:29):
He is an author and an educator who runs a
transformational training academy in my hometown of Detroit that has
drawn widespread praise and was the subject of an ESPN
thirty for thirty documentary.

Speaker 1 (07:42):
Now he works specifically with underserved and at risk boys,
most of whom are black. He uses martial arts to
teach them healthy emotional habits, leadership, emotional regulation, and discipline.

Speaker 2 (07:54):
He has gone viral many, many, many.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Times because of how he relates to these boys and
for the con sations he's fostered among men, men who
are broken, who are struggling to find emotional balance and release.
Our conversation today is among the most powerful you will hear,
especially for those boys and men who are struggling to
be heard and to break free from what my guest
refers to as emotional incarceration. Coming up next on politics,

(08:19):
Jason Wilson. Jason, I'm going to start the podcast with
the question I ask every yes that appears on politics,
and given how you have been able to create a
pathway or a presence in the sports space, it feels

(08:41):
even more perfect for you.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
A name, a athlete or a moment that made you
love sports.

Speaker 4 (08:49):
Wow, so many athletes that I admire. Wow, that's a
good question. I would have to say, it's a toss.
So can I say too, it has you one? It's
a tosso between geez, I would say Barry, Well, no,

(09:12):
I have to go back. Lynn Swan was my favorite
wide receiver the entire Pittsburgh still his team in the seventies.
I you know, I was a big fan of even
my number was number eighty eight Lynn Swine And then
of course the great Barry Sanders was an inspiration to
me as well. And of course growing up in the
city of Detroit and named Jalen and Chris Weber and others.

(09:34):
So yeah, it's so many, a lot of memories You've triggered,
and I can't forget Michael Jordan's you know, the first
one that really made you know, like had his own
gym shoe and the jogging suits and everything. So definitely
the Pittsburgh still is of the seventies, Barry Sanders the
greatest running back ever, and Michael Jordan. Of course, just

(09:56):
being around Detroit athletes. It's just, uh, that's what triggered
me I love for sports.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
Now, a lot of athletes do hold you in high
regard and been able to kind of get into that space.
I don't know, it feels like something that it was
kind of organic. Now for those who are not familiar,
you have a thirty for thirty documentary on the Cave
of Abdulam that is tremendous, by the way, so I
highly encourage everybody out there to watch it. I think

(10:23):
it's probably available on ESPN Plus, maybe even Netflix, but
I think ESPN Plus for sure. You know, I saw
the interview that you did on All the Smoke, and
I'm sure you got a lot of feedback from that.
You of course were sitting with two friends of mine,
Matt Barnes and Steven Jackson, and that was really such
a transformational conversation. Now that you have been in this

(10:45):
space of being around athletes who come to you for
counsel or you wind up organically counseling. What are some
of the things that you notice from a mental health
perspective that athletes go through that most people would be
underway aware of.

Speaker 4 (11:02):
Wow, that's a really good question. Yes, that moment on
all the smoke was I knew it was going to
be special day because when we sat down, I'm thinking
it's going to be an interview about my book, and
we just start talking about life, and I just said,
you know what, let's throw the book out. It's just
we just need to talk as brothers. And I think
one of the main things athletes deal with that many

(11:23):
may not be aware is that they constantly have to
keep their guard up. They don't know who they could trust. Again,
in this age of social media, you know, unlike what
Jordan and Isaiah, the Pistons and teams of that era,
even though still if they didn't have to deal with
all of their private lives being in public and so
being an athlete, you not only have to deal with
the pressure of playing the sport and then getting the

(11:46):
deals and staying out of trouble, but also everyone getting
in your business, and then you have to deal with
the family that you know constantly is in need. I
remember being at Dame Lillard's camp formerly zero, and I
had a moment where I opportunity to talk to some
of the boys and one of the kids he was
so stressed out because he felt that he had to

(12:06):
put on for his family. And I said, man, no,
you got it wrong. You're the child. This boy was
only fifteen. I'm just like, whoa, And so here it is.
He's already getting locked into this mindset that he's only
a provider. And then you got to understand as well.
These athletes are graded when they get started, so you graded,

(12:28):
you know, what is a five star, four star, three star,
So now you're being programmed that your worth is based
on your performance. And then I guess I would say, also,
you know everyone expects him like since they're making a
large sum of money, that they're not human. You know
that they don't have trauma at time travels even in
their sport, and you know the pressure of having to

(12:51):
always have to perform at a high level when you
may be dealing with the father wound or a mother
wound of depression. Of suicidal thoughts. And so these guys
aren't They far from being superheroes, just like men in society.
And I would just like to see one day where
athletes are not just treated as you know, humans or

(13:13):
just regular people, but also understood that, hey, you know,
they have lives as well. And that's why I'm happy
for my brother, Dame Lillard that he's able to go
back to Portland. You know, you hear people say, well,
he won't be able to get a ring who cares.
His goal is to be with his children. And that's
why I respect them so much because he's a family
man and that was really tough for him, not being

(13:34):
around him as much as he was used to. And
so again, these guys are human, and I think that's
the biggest challenge. So many people put them on a
pedestal like they can't make a mistake, so when they
do make a mistake, people condemn.

Speaker 2 (13:46):
Them along those same lines about what you said about
Dame Lillard. As we're recording this, Chris Paul has.

Speaker 1 (13:51):
Agreed to deal a one year deal with the Clippers,
and I recently was in conversation with Chris at the
American Black Film Festival and one of the things he
talked about from a mental health perspective about how hard
it's been for him these last five six years of
his career because he's been separated from his family.

Speaker 2 (14:08):
His family is in Los.

Speaker 1 (14:10):
Angeles, and he did not want to burden them with
constantly moving, and so they chose to stay in Los
Angeles while he is out here obviously playing a sport
that he loves, making a living, providing for his family.
But he spoke very candidly about how mentally tough it
was for him to when you know, to go home
to an empty house. And so when Day made that decision,

(14:33):
I also recognize the same thing. Like for a lot
of fans, they think like, oh, no, you're supposed to
be pursuing a championship constantly.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
And I get it. These guys make a lot of money.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
So people say, well, I would deal with that if
it meant I'm on an eighty million dollar contract.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
I get it.

Speaker 1 (14:47):
But it's a little bit more complicated than that. But
I want to highlight or at least zone in on
something that you talked about, because it doesn't just apply
to professional athletes. You're talking about the provider. The provider
narrative that men have been conditioned to accept and believe
that is a part of the fabric of who they are.

(15:08):
For women, I think what is similar, especially for black women,
is the strong black woman archetype. That is also it's
great to be a strong Black woman to be known
in that. I know people mean it as a compliment,
but it's also killing a lot of us at the
same time. And I think, based off what you have
talked about in I read your book The Man, the
Moment Demands, you talk so much in this book about

(15:32):
how that provider archetype can be very toxic. I hate
to use that word given what you said about words
when you just talk so eloquently and candidly about how
this provider narrative can be to the detriment of men.
So can you explain and expound more that about that

(15:54):
provider narrative sometimes being a roadblock for men in terms
of their overall health and growth.

Speaker 4 (16:01):
YEA, being a provider for one is an honor. It
is actually you know, as a man of faith. You know,
a man who doesn't provide is called an unbeliever. So
it's something it's men that we have to do a
must And you know, I consider it an honor to
be able to provide the life that I can for
my wife and children. However, the issue becomes is when
that becomes our sole identity, that that is all we're

(16:24):
here to do. Hand over the check, give me a
play of food so I can eat and go to sleep.
And what has happened is that men are realizing now
that this really isn't living. And then when you look
at studies of how we die by suicide almost four
times as likely as women. And what is it. Nine
out of ten people who live to be one hundred
are women, and ninety percent of violent crimes in the

(16:48):
United States are done by men. And so when you
lock a man in this box of what I call
just being in a box of masculinity, meaning all you
can do is provide, protect, and build the rest of
his life, the rest of his I guess attributes are lost.
And I compared it to the pit bull terrier. You know,

(17:10):
when I grew up, this dog was known for being
the aggressor and fighter and protector, which you know, if
I had a pitbull terrier still I would want him
to have those attributes. But what we missed is that
this breed or bully breeds are called nanny dogs. They
were also great family companions. But what happened to this
dog when it was only locked in protector mode? It

(17:31):
became very unstable and was banned throughout you know, many
cities in the country. And if not for many animal
rights group, we would have never known that this dog
was a comprehensive dog. It was a protector but also
a nurturer. And so you know, when you got a
man also who is usually just providing for everyone, he
doesn't even understand what it means to provide for himself.

(17:54):
You know, I had an interview recently. They asked for
pictures of me, my wife, my family, me working with
the kids in the cave, and then they asked for
a picture of me hanging with my friends. To mean
I couldn't find one. I was searching, and it really
was sobering because here it is, I provide a work,
I do everything I can, I serve the community, but

(18:15):
where is my own social life? You know, for so
long my identity and I've broken free from a lot
of bad habits, but this would be my last one.
And so as a man, again, if your whole existence
is doing it's hard for you to be you know,
they say you become a human doing instead of being
a human being. And so I encourage men to, you know,

(18:37):
of course, continue to provide for those that we love,
but let's not forget that we too are a part
of the family.

Speaker 1 (18:43):
So a couple of months ago, actually I don't think
it was a couple of months, but more a couple
of weeks.

Speaker 2 (18:49):
I posted on my Instagram.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
It was a black woman who was talking about how
she was really concerned about the mental health of black
men who had done what you were talking about, who
had limited their vision of themselves just into their provision
and what they could do for other people. And the
response that she got from men was really was really
quite alarming because many of them were criticizing her and
what do you know about being a man? I understand that,

(19:12):
like I do, but I thought what she was saying
was really helpful. So I just posed the question on
my Instagram because I was curious, is like I wanted
to hear, specifically from men, and definitely from black men,
is why don't men think about being happy? And the
responses were really heartbreaking. So many of them kept saying,

(19:34):
I just want to be a piece. I don't care
about being happy. To me, being happy is me being
able to provide for my family. I don't have time
to think about being happy. And I was like, oh
my god, which is totally different than how frankly, women
are conditioned. We are conditioned, maybe too much to think
about our own which is why y'all was like, y'all

(19:56):
ain't accountaballs like I get, I never know, because we're
always like, we got to be happy, we got to
be happy all the time, so we're.

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Probably overrun with it.

Speaker 1 (20:05):
Meanwhile, conversely, men are just not conditioned to think that
they deserve to be happy. And so many of my
black mail friends hit me up on the side, like,
since I never even thought about that question. So, as
someone who operates in this space, can you perhaps provide
some illumination about like why aren't men condition or why

(20:25):
do they never think about their own happiness?

Speaker 4 (20:28):
You know what's interesting? My wife often says she just
wants me happy, and I tell her, happiness is like
any emotion is fleeting, It comes and goes. No emotion
is You're never in the constant state of happiness. Joy
the only thing that you can possibly maintain is peace,
and that becomes possible when you understand that peace is

(20:49):
not a place. It has to be within you before
it can be around you. And so a lot of men,
you know, if you go back again to how we've
been conditioned, so from as boys, we're told big boys
don't cry, all right, that right there, When you understand
that tears contain stress hormones that get excreted from our
bodies when we cry, you've literally told a man to

(21:12):
no longer allow himself to release all that he's dealing
with the natural way. So now we have to go
to the drugs, the pornography, to the high risk behavior,
and I mean I could go on and on, and
so happiness never became a part of being a man.
Then when you become a man, they say no pain,

(21:33):
no gain, and what doesn't kill you can only make
you stronger. Where is happiness? Where is expressing any emotion
besides being strong, fearless and bold and a protector. We've
been conditioned that now it's okay to be a stoic, emotionless.
And now to your point about women, women are now
becoming storks. And that's to me, you know, and many

(21:56):
men agree that's The real danger is when a woman
cuts off her heart from the world. You know, I
call it emotional incarceration, is self imposemental imprisonment where a
male a boy isolates his heart and his cares from
the world, and because of that, no one it feels
like no one cares. And I tell men, we have

(22:17):
to be careful when we say no one, because it's
not true. Because if I gather a room of fifty
men and we all can share transparently about what we're
dealing with, what we repress, you will see men start
opening up. And then you realize, wait a minute, people
do care. I'm just around the wrong people. And it's
typically you have to be around men. And so to

(22:39):
your point, happiness, you know, and as matter of fact,
when you think of the word, it's always attributed to
our wives. Happy wife, happy life. And we all know
that's the line. You've been married for how long.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
Now it's sixty years, yes, okay, I.

Speaker 4 (22:52):
Got twenty seven in in the game, so we already
know that's a misleading mantra. My wife and I now
say happy houses, happy spouses, And so it has to
have a if we're two halves becoming hole, that means
we're one now. So you can't just work on one
side of the body. That's like a guy going to

(23:13):
the gym only working his upper body. It's skipping leg
there every week. Eventually, if you get in a real fight,
I shoot forward legs. I can easily lift them in
body slam them. It's the same thing with marriage. You
can't neglect the husband always working on the wife, and
vice versa. You can't neglect the wife always focusing on
the husband. And so until we get to the place
where we feel value that it's okay, you know for

(23:37):
us to even you know, express joy. You know, think
about this. You grew up in Detroit. We used to
talk about you. If you were friendly, we would say,
oh you friendly, what you're friendly for? You know? So
being friendly is meaning I'm happy. So we condition see
if you're happy, that means those emotions are joy and

(23:57):
kindness and feeling good that don't mix well with today's masculinity.
And so because of that, we shun those emotions and
don't understand like, wait a minute, this is how I
can be a comprehensive man. This is how I can
tap into the gentleman attribute or characteristic or the nurturing
characteristic or truly being a lover outside of sex. But

(24:19):
until you know as me and we understand and accept
that we're more than providers, we're more than just doers.
But with human beings, I think it's going to be
difficult for all of us to really embrace those moments
of happiness enjoy when they come.

Speaker 2 (24:34):
So your current book, The Man, Be the Man, the
Moment Demands, this is your third book.

Speaker 1 (24:41):
I've read all of them now like a Man That'll
cry and there and by the way, even though this
book is these books are designed for men, I think
as a woman it really informs me, especially about how
I can be a better partner, a better emotional partner
for my husband. So I would encourage women to read

(25:02):
these books as well, because I think it's very good
information for us. With that being said, how does your
current book, Be The Man the Moment Demands. How do
you feel like that differs from your previous two?

Speaker 4 (25:13):
Well? Quite, Like a Man was my message driven memoir.
Was my journey of my escape or fighting for my
escape from emotional incarceration, where I help men understand right
in my journey, that's what a lot of men love
that first book because they see instantly when they read
those pages that they're not alone in the way that
they feel. Battle Cry is an introspective blueprint that teaches

(25:38):
men how to wage and win their internal battles before
they become external wars. So so often as men, we
again we're taught to repress our emotions instead of really
dealing with them and becoming a verbal process where we
can express them. And then we wonder why we always
lose it, you know, at the slightest offense, or if

(25:59):
our wife, you know, as we get hit with a
barrage of questions and we had a rough day at work.
We can't pull on the patience or subdual any emotion
that would stop us from meeting that moment. So Battle
Cry was that book is teaching me how to wage
and when they're in the battles, and then the man
the moment demands teaches men to how to be the
right man in the moment. So many of us have

(26:21):
so many regrets because we were the wrong man in
the moment. And it teaches men, you know, that what
we've always felt, there was nothing wrong with it, but
we didn't know how to truly express it. For instance,
like being a nurturer. For instance, if you wanted to
be a gardener in my era, you know, you would

(26:43):
get clowned in my neighborhood if you in the backyard,
you know, I guess pruning some flowers, or in the garden,
like pulling greens or tomatoes. You know. But now, if
you look at the culinary arts profession, it's majority men
or even the gentleman characters that we've been misled to
believe that a chivalry is pandering to women, but actually

(27:06):
it was a cold for medieval knights. And then the
whole alpha male myth, which has been debunked many times,
even by the guy who created it. Men find more
comfort in hiding behind that facade because it's harder to
deal with the internal struggles that came from being a child,
whether it's abuse the father, womd, the abandonment, or being bullied.

(27:29):
And so you know the man the moment, the man
goes through the ten characteristics of a comprehensive man and
teaches us as men that were more than providers, but
we're also leaders, lovers, were gentlemen, were friends, and so
many of us we don't even understand what a friend
A true friend is now, because what do we say
now when someone has a lot of problems or they're

(27:50):
constantly bothering you, we call them toxic like you said earlier,
But we understand that true friends, we don't have to
put a boundary up between one of our friends who
are hurting. We make ourselves available and tell them the truth.
Whatever they're struggling with, we help them push through it.
And then, of course, the last three characteristics in that book,
which are really important is the husband, the father, and

(28:13):
the son. And I close with the son because that's
the characteristic that made me a comprehensive man when I
had to learn I was more than masculine. When I
had to care for my mother who had dementia. She
didn't need someone who just would fight bill collectors or
you know, confront the doctors who just wanted to push
psych mads on her. She needed a son who would

(28:36):
massage her, scout when she was stressed, the son who
would found her nails, who were cleaner, who would hug
her and caress her. And you know, I wasn't that
type of guy growing up. I was hyper masculine. But
that moment I refused to allow my mother to leave
here without getting the best care that she needed and
the most I made it clear, until I became a

(28:57):
comprehensive man, I couldn't meet that moment, would be the
man that moment demanded.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
So it was that chapter, the Son chapter, that all
of it, every chapter you have resume neated with me
in different ways, either when it came to allowing me
to understand my husband better or thinking about my own
emotional incarceration.

Speaker 4 (29:21):
That I have.

Speaker 1 (29:22):
But the Son chapter really resonated with me because I
was particularly interested in how you repaired or sought to
repair the relationship with your father. You know, I noticed
in a lot of interviews that you do, they wind
up being therapy sessions for the people you and I
It's like, I promise, I'm not doing that. I need to.

(29:46):
I need other people to get this information, especially men.
But I have to say it did make me think
about my own very complicated relationship with my father, who
I have not spoken to in probably almost three years
for a variety of reasons, and for the first time
in that time, it actually made me want to pick

(30:08):
up the phone and call him. And something that you
said in the book about how sometimes the treatment women
received can make us hearten our hearts, and my heart
feels very hard toward him now, and I don't know
how to make it unheard, but reading your book it
certainly gave me some things to at least think about.

(30:29):
So I wanted to ask you a little bit more
about what was it that allowed you to maybe see
your father in a way you hadn't seen him before
as he was dealing with I believe it was prostate cancer.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
Correct, prastate cancer and park and Parkinson's.

Speaker 2 (30:45):
Yes, that is correct, And so what was it about.

Speaker 1 (30:49):
It that repairing that that unlocked it for you even
though your father had not yet been in the place
yet where you could understand why he parented you the
way that he did.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
You know, to be honest, I have to say it
was it's my relationship with your shoe or eye, because
my wife told me when I cursed him out for
him accusing me of stealing money from him and hung
up on him, she was like, you know, Jay, you know,
you know we often say what would Jesus do? Like literally,
in this moment, what would he do? And I know

(31:24):
forgiveness is not necessarily for the one who offends you,
is for us you know, and in my relationship with
y'all the most high, and so I had to forgive him.
And when my stepmother made that call and say, hey,
your father's not doing well, you know, it wasn't that
much of an offense where I would let him die

(31:45):
without seeing And even though I didn't, I didn't I
knew he wasn't dying. But when you tell me that
there's one of the strongest men avenue in my life
isn't doing well, I had to go visit him, and
so I still was, you know, guarded, but when I
saw my father barely could move, it broke me. You know.

(32:06):
I sat next to his bed and cried, and from
that moment I vowed to be in his life. I
forgave him, and I'm so glad I did, because I
learned that he was just a product of how he
was raised. He was conditioned to be hard, just like
my generation, except worse. They didn't have opportunities to express

(32:27):
how they feel like we do today. And so I
chose not to give the devil two stones, you know,
like you're not going to take me and him out,
you know, I'm going to make sure I do my
part to make sure I reconcile, and I wanted to
get some information from him, like you know, why are
you this way? What happened? And I learned that he, too,

(32:48):
like me, was called to be a servant of the
most high, but he ran from his and what was
deep After the many visits to the nursing home where
it was, I asked him to make you know, if
I had to make him a promise, what would it be?
And out of anything he could have asked me, he said,
I wanted, I want you to preach the gospel and
I want to hear you. And he was able to

(33:09):
do both. And so I always encourage, you know, children
of parents who they've been wounded by, like don't let
them die without you trying your best to reconcile it
like that weight. You don't want to be the child
at the funeral that jumps at the casket, you know.
And so I don't know what you and your father
went through, and you know, sometimes it seems like it's

(33:35):
you can't go back, But the first step is always forgiveness, Like, hey,
you know, I forgive you. I got to let it
go for myself. Once I was able to let go,
I was finally able to learn his side of the story.
And then I found that I was interpreting a lot
like it wasn't It wasn't a lot of truths there
because I was young, and if I didn't hear it

(33:56):
from a horse's mouth, you know, I was just interpret
But when I finally heard where he got his mindset from,
why he was so angry, it seemed like perpetually my
father had a chip on his shoulder, we were able
to finally laugh. And then Jay at seventeen, no, at
thirty seven years old, was the first time I heard

(34:16):
him say he loved me. And that all happened because
I gave him an olive branch and he took it
and we were able to reconcile.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
Okay, we're going to take a quick break, and after
the break more to come.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
On Spot Ticks.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
You do talk a lot about those father and mother
wounds that young men, men of all ages have to
deal with right now as we're recording this year in
the middle of camp at the Cave, and for those
who are not familiar with the Cave, it is a
transformational academy where you use sort of mixed martial arts

(34:59):
as a book, so to speak.

Speaker 2 (35:01):
But it's really much more.

Speaker 1 (35:02):
About character growth, you know, personal growth, character growth, integrity,
a lot of those things that young boys, young black
boys especially need. And you'd say something earlier about when
you were pointing out the different the different characteristics you
lay out in your book.

Speaker 2 (35:20):
The Father of the Son, all of those things.

Speaker 1 (35:22):
One of them that you laid out was about chivalry
and about how now that is being positioned in today's
age as being you know me and just pandering are
simping for women. But it made me wonder about trends
overall that you're seeing among our young people.

Speaker 2 (35:39):
One of them is that is that chivalry.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
They don't even think about chivalry, like it's just.

Speaker 2 (35:43):
It's just dead.

Speaker 1 (35:46):
But given that you have such regular interaction with these
young boys and men, what are some of the trends
you are noticing, both positive and negative, about how they're
dealing with their own mental health.

Speaker 4 (35:58):
Well, from this camp, you know, it was what I
love about it. We've gotten boys from the community to
come out, and the boys that probably wouldn't even get
into the cave of Adlements, so I get to get
you know, dexter Limb with all the boys from around
the community and even further out to come in, so
I get to see, you know, different backgrounds in one facility.

(36:19):
So we have fifty boys, and one thing I'm noticing
that is different is that they're willing to be transparent
when there is a safe space. They come, of course
with their guards up and the facade, and I get it.
You know, you don't know this kid standing next to you,
don't know if he's going to try you, So you're
going to try to act tough the entire time. But

(36:40):
when I open up the sessions and first allow myself
to be transparent, showing them my mistakes and the things
that happened to me back then, it's still time traveling.
Now the boys are really open with their fears. It
takes them a moment. But what I'm noticing on the
negative side is that they're like hyper anxious and have
a like stifling fear of failure. I ask the one

(37:04):
class you know about the fear of failure piece and
you know, as a parent, it hit me because they
said it comes from their parents just constantly yelling at
them when they make a mistake, and so it prevents
them from even striving or trying to do something that's
a good risk, you know, like trying to be the
best at a certain sport or academically trying to go

(37:28):
for that four point zero. But if you're constantly getting
yelled at for having a two point five, it's like, man,
I know I have to make a mistake to become better,
but I don't want to constantly be condemned for trying.
And That's what I'm seeing. And then also, not just
our boys, I'm starting to see that the majority of
their parents are hurting, like so many parents are not

(37:53):
aware or skilled at not only identifying their trauma, but
going through the process of releasing it. And whence why
you know, we encourage the parents whose sons are able
to get in the cave of a deloment, they go
through our trauma informed care training so they can understand
how their trauma is being passed down through their children.

(38:13):
And so those are the two things I'm seeing. And
then again they're battling a culture that says, you know again,
you know, being sure, this is what you call simping,
or that you know, why are you emotional? Why are
you crying? Why are you weak? Why are you sad?
But I'm noticing that these boys are dealing with great
depression when they bottle up their emotions. And when I

(38:36):
showed them a clip last week of a song Drake
has called Fears from an older album. He says, I
pop bottles because I bottle my emotions. And so when
they saw that, they were like wow. So even in
the culture it's promoted to mask how you feel as
a man, but now they're starting to see, even in
class that like wow, me sitting at the desk like this,

(38:58):
this is sending signs to my brain that I'm tired,
I'm lazy, instead of forcing yourself to have correct poster
and say no, I'm a master this emotion in this
moment and lock into my teacher. But overall, Jade, the
boys are are more transparent because there many of them
are at a breaking point. But then on the flip side,

(39:22):
the fear of failure is really what's concerning me, because
this is why you have a generation of boys where
many are apathetic.

Speaker 1 (39:30):
You know, among along those same lines we keep hearing
or reading. I think Time magazine did a piece about
how we are in a time where among adult men
that this is the loneliest error ever for men, which
is kind of startling to see what have you noticed
about or how much do you buy into or the

(39:54):
male loneliness epidemic.

Speaker 4 (39:57):
I'm a byproduct of it. I helped tens of thousands
of men, and I have a close circle of friends,
but all of us we're there for each other. We
just had to make ourselves. Two of my friends go
get something to eat together. But we think being an
individual is isolation, and that's the problem. We find strength

(40:21):
in camaraderie. Like the warrior David and the scriptures, when
he was running from his life from King Saul, who
was jealous of them, the scriptures say four hundred men
came to him and he became a leader. These men
were in debt, distressed and discontented, just like many of
us today, and they came together in this cave, which
the cave was a place of refuge, but they exited

(40:41):
that cave as mighty men of valid and so as
men when we find ourselves. You know, you often hear
say I did it on my own. No one does
anything on their own, but we've been conditioned to believe
that that's how it happens. And so you know, I
have to fight. You know, I'm just like a lot
of men. You know, I'm strong and want to provide
for myself, and you don't want to be a burden anyone.

(41:03):
And so when you don't, when hang time looks like
you're a burden, or if you have a lot of
responsible men like I do in my circle, they prioritize
priorities more than their own health or more than their
own emotional wellness and what they needs men And I
forgot one study recently came out that said that men

(41:24):
need to increase their hang time at least I think
it's twice a week now or something. And that's how
bad it is for men. We're isolated. And when you're
isolated with your thoughts and your trauma, the one that
we lead in suicide.

Speaker 1 (41:41):
As women, I think we're complicit and a lot of
things that we didn't create the patriarchy for sure, but
we certainly carry the water for it. And how for
you know, women, be it in relationships with you know,
husband's boyfriends, or even in dealing with your children or

(42:02):
dealing whatever man in your life, how can we be
less complicit in the emotional incarceration of men?

Speaker 4 (42:11):
When you say and be emotional incarceration and men, what do.

Speaker 1 (42:14):
You mean meaning that, like you just got haven emotional conversation,
incarceration is you know, men who feel like they have
to suppress everything, that they have to be stoic, that
they have to live up to this sort of superhero perception.
Women certainly contributed to that because we make you feel Yeah,
we contribute because we make men.

Speaker 2 (42:32):
Feel like that's the only value that you can provide.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Hits why I hate this fifty to fifty conversation so much,
But that's a story for another day. But like you know,
a lot of we're not responsible for men's behavior. However,
men do take their cues from what will attract us,
and I hear not maybe among my own friends, but
you see it across social media of women sort of

(43:00):
you know, not making men feel safe about expressing these emotions.
So that's why I ask, like, how can we be
more less complicit in the emotional incarceration and men feeling
like they don't have anywhere to turn to or go.

Speaker 4 (43:15):
Well, one thing I would advise, I guess both men
and women. I talk to two men now who are
listening and watching. Your wife is not your counselor therapist.
You know, once you start breaking free, from emotional incarceration,
you become more expressive. I have men who are street
guys in Detroit will call me once they start breaking

(43:37):
free and start asking me. They start asking me, you know,
they'll say, Jay, Man, you don't have to read your book.
I'm finding myself crying a lot more, and I'm like,
what do you mean said? Now? I watch a movie
with my son and I'm tearing up, and I just say, brother,
you just backed up like a damn you know, And
finally you have an opportunity to release, and it's going
to take you some years. When I first started breaking

(43:59):
free from emotional incarceration, I was I had held so
much in, so much trauma from losing, you know, intergenerational trauma,
for my grandfather's lynching, to losing two brothers to murder,
to my best friends dropping dead of a heart attack.
I held all of that in and so when I
had opportunities to finally express it, it would just flow
out of me. And so once I was able to now,

(44:21):
once I had released enough to where I could become
emotionally stable. I had made the mistake early on believing
that Nicole, my wife, was my counselor and therapist, and
that's not how that works. Meaning I appreciate her being
there for me and supporting me, but I have to
always be wise enough to read the room or what
I call the huddle principle and my book Battlecry. If

(44:44):
you're a quarterback and you go to the huddle and
you're the leader and you feel like you're going to
lose the game, you can't let those in the huddle
know that. You got to say, hey, this is the
play we call. Now we're gonna run it. Let's go,
let's fight, and let's break moon. And you go and
you play the game. When you come home, got to
evaluate how is your wife feeling, what's the mood of

(45:05):
the home, where the children at and you can't share
certain things, and that's where the camaraderie brothers come. Now
far as to the wife, what does she have to
bring to the table to help her man become a
comprehensive man. The first thing I ask is, don't try
to be his wife mom. Basically his wife and his mother.

(45:25):
Like I lost my mom, and there's no love ever
I will ever receive like the one I love I
got from my mother. My wife is a strong second
and she still can't touch the love I got for
my mother. What I mean is that so Nicole knows
now is that she is to nurture me in the

(45:45):
right moments. And that happens when the wife becomes a
great listener. Instead of listening to respond, she listens to
my heart to say, oh, this is heavy for him.
And then she had kindly either tapped me on my head,
which is a signal for me to lay into her
lap like we'll see in the Black community. You'll see
the picture of the pharaoh laying in the lap of

(46:06):
his queen. It's similar to that, but she never forces
the moment. You know a lot as the mother and
you the nurture in you. If you see your husband
is hurting her disappointment or disappointed, you want to step
in and be that mom, but you can't. You're his wife.
And so when he allows you that space, when he
gives you that room, listen, and when you see the

(46:28):
sign of the opportunity, take it and comfort him through
those moments. And that's the most valuable thing I've seen.
What my wife is that she knows now not to
I guess try to be my cold to say you
could God even keep pushing through. She'll say, wow, Jay,
that was tough. I don't know how you endure that. See,

(46:50):
as man, we're used to the peptos. We're used to
the man up and keep going. It's very rare we
get from women or even sometimes our friends that on man,
I don't even know how you're dealing with that, like
acknowledge that what I'm caring is heavy. And that's why
men feel so unappreciated by the women in their lives.
It's like, yeah, you acknowledge it on holidays, but we

(47:12):
don't care about that. We would like to acknowledgement throughout
the year, like, hey, I appreciate you doing what you do.
I know it's hard considering the way you treated at
your job, the way you treated in society, the way
you got to move past. You're on father womb because
everything that he told you was negative. And so that's
what I would tell women. First, listen with intent. Don't

(47:34):
listen to speak, Listen to hear his heart or listen
to respond. Second, look for the cues to enter. Look
where he's long and look for what he's longing for.
And once you know your husband, you will be able
to identify them and then move there and then you know. Lastly,
don't try to culture. Instead identify what he's dealing with

(47:55):
and say, wow, it really takes a strong man to
do all that you're doing, and I truly appreciate it.
That affirmation for my wives is what you know makes
us feel appreciated and keep going, and don't wait till
Father's Day or birthday to do that. Do it once
a week even, you know, and acknowledge us when it's
not a celebration. Just say hey, I like how you

(48:17):
You know you you fix the garage today, or you
constantly you're never late for work, You're constant providing the
kids need this, I need the car fixed or whatever.
You're always there and that's what keeps a man encouraged.
And that's what helps us feel appreciated.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
And also, I think you said this and be the
man the moment demands is that we shouldn't always listen
and have a ready made solution.

Speaker 4 (48:45):
Yes, right, that's what I mean by don't coach him.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
But don't coach him, okay, because I remember that very
much so.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
And by the way, that works great with women too,
because sometimes we just want to vent.

Speaker 4 (48:54):
We don't need to. I made that mistake with Nicole
a few times. But she's not looking for me to
be this teacher. She just needs her husband to hear
her heart, you know. And that's true. I called that
concept don't change the weather, because a lot of times
you care, you say, bane, it's gonna be all right,
We're gonna make it. But it dismisses that right now,
it's not okay. And so as me and we're fixs.

(49:16):
We strategies. We like the hard work and pushing through,
but we don't like our emotions or the situation being
lessened than what it really is. If it's raining, let
me sit in this for a moment so that I
can come out of it, so I can figure out
what's going on. Men don't like being pacified. You tell
me what it is. Let it be what it is

(49:37):
so I can figure it out and fight through.

Speaker 1 (49:39):
This very good advice, And what would be what would
be your advice for men? Because I have I think
women we notice this too sometimes when y'all get together,
we're hearing the sort of report of back or even
when I have seen in them my husband and his friends,

(50:01):
is that there's a lot of surface level. There's a
lot of like, you know, they might sit up there
and argue about who is the best way I receiver
from nineteen eighty seven football thirty minutes, And there's a
place for that, and that in itself, it's probably therapy,
like being able to have those kind of frivolous conversations
that just are a sense of relief. But among their

(50:22):
own friendship groups, especially seeing how silent and stoic and
men don't always tell you, you know, your problems. Because sometimes
my husband will tell me the situation a friend is
going through. He's never specific about who it is because
he doesn't want to divulge any confidences.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
But I'm like, well, did you ask him this? And
did you ask him about any of them? Like no,
I'm like, what are we doing right?

Speaker 4 (50:44):
So?

Speaker 1 (50:44):
What is your advice to men among their own friendship
groups how they can get other men, you know, their
friends to open up more.

Speaker 4 (50:55):
Well, first you got to, you know, be what they
don't see. You know, I'm always the first example when
ever there's a gathering of men and I have to
lead the group, you know, not just you know, hear
what's going on inside of them. Ask them the deeper questions,
ask them what's going on, what's how you how does
this make you feel? Has it ever taken you to

(51:15):
a dark place? And give them the floor and don't
rush them. I think it's good, like you were saying,
to have those surface level conversations. Those are what we
call starters. But what men need is actually real introspective
work of conversations where they can dive deep and know
that their brothers are truly with them. And I would

(51:35):
tell brothers to, you know, again, be what they didn't get,
you know, be quick to listen and slow to speak,
and understand that you know you're not the only one
with problems. And that's I had to learn that early
on as a leader. You know, if a lot of
people are looking to you, they're making sure your problems
are taken care of. But what about all the other

(51:58):
men that you're teamed up with to basically or to
accomplish a mission. They get left out. And so I
make sure that if my problems are addressed, I want
to address every man that's in my circle. I'm really
more intentional now with the young men that I disciple,
ask them about what's going on in their lives, let
them talk, and I don't limit the time and then
give them sound advice, but almost give them the opportunity

(52:22):
to figure out the process as well.

Speaker 2 (52:26):
So what does self care look like for you?

Speaker 5 (52:29):
Now?

Speaker 4 (52:32):
I have a concept I created called the four RS,
which is reflect, release, reset and rest. This is a
process I do every day. I've done it once during
this interview. When I have something to think about, I
reflect and release it real quick so I can stay
present in this moment. So I reflect on whatever is

(52:52):
troubling me that may not have me present, and then
I release it so that I can reset and then
getting a state of rest, not sleep, but in a
state where I'm calm throughout my day. And this is
how I'm able to maintain a peace or have the
peace you could have in the mouth deeds just riding
your bike down seven miles. And that's what's really crucial

(53:15):
for men. And this is why I'm thankful that we
piloted the summer camp for the boys, because for the
first time we get to keep them for eight hours
during the time when school would influence them their friends.
We're there. We're able to check it immediately and then
help them understand the moment and how to process their emotions.
In it and to teach them the four hours, like okay, cool,

(53:37):
reflect on what happened. He was trying to bully you.
All right, we reconcile. Now let's release it so that
we can reset. And now we're in a state of
rest where we can move throughout this day in peace.
And so that's where I'm at now. That's what self
care looks for me, or I call self maintenance in
my book, because when you say care or self love

(53:57):
as a man, we're like, what is that? That's like happiness?
What are you talking about? We don't know what that
feel like. What are you talking about? You say maintenance?
A man instantly knows what you mean. Take care of something,
stay on top of it. And I tell men, you
don't want to die as a work of course, you
want to. You want to die and be honored as
a war horse, a workhorse. That's all he does is work.

(54:19):
A war horse works fights and is maintained because you
never know when that battle is coming. And so I
encourage men to be warhorses and not just workhorses. And
the way you can maintain that is by practicing the
four urs, not allowing a day to get by where
you haven't reflect on either something that's hurting you or

(54:39):
something you've done to hurt someone else. And then you
may need to practice another R which I call retain,
because you don't want to release something that may have
offindit your wife and your children. You want to retain
that and then revisit it, which is another R which
I didn't plant and say, but you want to revisit it.
And then now once you reconcile, which is another R

(54:59):
which I'm not trying to do, but then you can
finally reset, and then you can rest. And when men
learn that power of being able to practice what I
call Sherlock meditation, which is based in the four hours
in the moment, even in fighting, even in sitting still,
even in the boardroom, even during the game. When I

(55:20):
work with athletes, stop wearing your headphones. While you got
headphones on in the pregame warm up, you can't wear
them during the game. You're training your brain that this
is the only way you can lock in and focus,
and in twenty minutes you're about to be in a lousy,
loud environment, and so understanding how to be in a
state of rest even when it's chaotic, is a great power,

(55:42):
and as men, we always desire peace, but we got
to do the end of work to be able to
maintain it wherever we are.

Speaker 2 (55:51):
I know that you see it.

Speaker 1 (55:52):
But whenever you post a clip for the work that
you're doing in the Cave or just really anything that
you're speaking of speaking on and especially as it pertains
to young boys, is always in the comments, Man, I
wish you had a.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
Program like that here.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
Man, I wish they had this in this city or
that city or this place. How much thought have you
given to expanding what you do in other locations.

Speaker 4 (56:14):
It's always on my heart. Again, I think we have
about eight hundred and twenty boys on a wait list
right now, which is actually, you know, greeves my spirit
because by the time we can get to the majority
of them, they aged out of the right of passage.
So this is why we started the Cave Camp or
the Cave Summer Campus year as a pilot for a school.

(56:36):
That's why I call it an academy. It was something
that I had the foresight to see, like, wait a minute,
if we could actually become the culture, the school culture.
Now the parents have to be in touch with us.
Now we can deal with bully and we can deal
with it. We deal with everything as they go through
their lives. Now we can truly train change the boys.

(56:57):
And so this is a pilot for school we hope
to launch soon where we'll start, I think it's grades.
We say, yeah, six through eighth grade. Started the sixth
grade maybe with thirty students, and then build on to
the next grades. And so that's the only scalable model
I could see where because you can do just the

(57:18):
cave alone and it works. But what we've discovered over
twenty years doing it now is that if we're not
involved in the area where they spend the most time,
it's very hard to really help them transform their or
renew their minds to how they see life. And so
that's our desire is to take this pilot and then
to create a middle school for boys, a Cave of

(57:41):
Adelam Academy, where instead of physical education, they'll do the
Cave of Adelam training and they will have their core
subjects as well as well as after school programming like dining, etiquette, grooming, etiquette,
workforce development, financial literacy, and other life skills or workforce development.

Speaker 1 (58:00):
Very happy that in your book you covered the etiquette
at your part. Yeah, that is important, and especially as
it relates to encouraging the young man to stop wearing
the hoodies everything.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (58:18):
And the key thing again at tying to the principle
of why we talked about it this morning, I call
it the hood mentality because the boys had their hoods on.
Of course, we tell him to take them off, but
ask him why and what the hood represents. So I
call it a portable cave because when the kid puts
a hood on inside, he just doesn't want to be bothered.
You know, you never know what a child has dealt

(58:39):
with in the car ride just going to school, and
so we give him that space, but we always make
him dig deep to why are you doing what you do?
When you teach the kid why why, he won't he
won't fail in life as often because then he start
being a principal based man. Uh.

Speaker 1 (58:57):
And finally, I want to ask you on a serious
now before we get to the messy question that ends
every podcast. Is there has been there's been a lot
of conversation around black male mentorship and what that looks
like in today's time, and there have been some concerns
that there is a lack of black male mentorship from

(59:19):
maybe I guess, I would say our generation and maybe
a little bit older from where you are.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
What do you.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
See from that perspective, like, do you feel like there
is a lack do you do you sense any reluctance
among the men of you know, maybe your generation before
or beneath that, to get involved in mentoring young black boys.

Speaker 4 (59:47):
I would say yes, that I don't see as many
men volunteering to be mentors as it was when we
first started our nonprofit in two thousand and three. And
I think that that's because more men now. I believe
men we always have been experts at repressing or suppressing

(01:00:10):
how we feel, just to keep things going. Like you know,
what's the saying they say, I can't even think of it. Basically,
you just continue to push through no matter what's going on.
We've reached a place now where men are struggling to
push through, and as a result of that, it's hard
for you to pour out of a not just an

(01:00:32):
empty cup, but a cup that is empty and cracked.
And so so many good men, good men with jobs,
have a lot to pour out. Their cups are empty
because their entire lives is pouring and so they have
really nothing. They have something to give, but they have
nothing to give. And so until we can get to
the place where these men are being poured back into

(01:00:56):
and their cup isn't always like this, we're going to
constantly see the lack of mentors in our community. And
you know, Frederick Douglas said it's easier to raise children
than it is to repair broken men. It's true, but
we should never leave men broken. And that's where I
feel that we're failing the village of the tribe is

(01:01:16):
that you know now that we're all awakened to the
importance of our identity is not in what we do.
Our identity is black people, is not in our trauma
and what we've been through is. But where we're going
and for me is me being a servant of the
Most High who I am and his son. We have
to find and seek the healing that we need so
that the next generation coming behind us won't be the same.

(01:01:38):
It's almost like in construction when I used to lay tout,
what good is it to tear up a roott sub
floor if you're not going to put a new one down.
And that's what's happening. We've opened the wounds. We see
what's happening, But now who's going to help bring the
healing and actually cover this area in our community? You know,
we have more resources than ever, but why don't we

(01:02:02):
see a lot of transformation Because we're planning seeds on
ground that's not fertile. The hearts and the minds have
been wounded and trauma side traumatized so much it's hard
to receive the seed, and so the seed never grows.
And that's why I believe that we are as a community,
which is why I'm often asked by the fathers in

(01:02:23):
the cave and men that see me when I'm out
and about, They say, when can you do the Cave
of Adellam for men? Because we need it? And that's
my next step in my calling is to create a
gathering space for men where they get the same opportunities
as their son did on those mats, where they can
have moments where they're transparent, emotionally open and deal with

(01:02:45):
their fears and anxieties and their trauma and then break
free and become comprehensive men of the Most High.

Speaker 1 (01:02:53):
All right, well, Jason, I want to thank you for
spending some time with me, because I know your time
is extremely valuable. You have a lot going on, especially
this summer. But before we end the podcast, I will
ask what is the messy question? This is where we
make some headlines for no reason at all, But it's
actually not as messy as I normally try to take it.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
But I'll ask you this.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
Between the three books you have written, you have you know,
each of them have had a different thing. I read
this so you can you know, clarify whether or not
this is true. It is be the man the moment
demands your last book.

Speaker 2 (01:03:33):
Of this series.

Speaker 4 (01:03:35):
Yes, as far as manhood. If they don't have it
by now, they never get it. I've exhausted it, you know,
but I still teach on it. Yes, my next book
will actually be for about boys raising boys in this generation, okay,
and to be written for parents, teachers, caregivers, anyone that

(01:03:58):
works for boys or have sons that want to know
the way that has worked for us in the Cave
of Adela. I will empty my cup in that book
and make sure now that may be my last book altogether.
I know writing Jay is no joke. Writing a book
is draining, especially if you would have a one of

(01:04:20):
the top publishers, you know how it is with the
copy of it, phases and all that. It's a lot,
and writing the Man in the Moment Demands was draining.
But I'm finished with the Manhood series. They got three
books to really unpack what they're dealing with. But now
let's teach men how to be fathers and help moms
become the mothers that they truly desire to be, you know,

(01:04:42):
and so many mothers are I had one mother recently
in accounting session with her son, and she just wept
in the office because she had to become both dad
and mom and she can't be dad. She just can't.
And to give a mother an opportunity to just be
mom is liberating for them. And so the care we

(01:05:05):
operate as that father figure, and it what's beautiful is
when the son's father comes, we can actually work with him,
and it's just truly a powerful I guess, a moment
in time that I'm thankful that I'm a part of.

Speaker 2 (01:05:22):
So maybe one more book.

Speaker 4 (01:05:24):
Yes, it's going to be one more. It's going to
be one more. My publisher's like, oh, you got one more,
and but this one here, I wish I could shuld
a title. I can't, but it's really powerful. So imagine
me taking you into the world of a boy, what
he deals with, what he faces, so that your heart
will become tender, and then give you the tools needed
to help him transform from where he is into becoming

(01:05:48):
a comprehensive man.

Speaker 1 (01:05:50):
Well, I know that everybody who meets you, and certainly
is a whaere of your work, says this, but it
can't be said enough. You talked a lot about showing
important men and our lives appreciation, but there's so many
people whose lives you've touched, so many trajectories you've changed,
futures you've altered in the most powerful way. So may

(01:06:10):
God continue to bless you and bless you know sort
of everything that you're doing, and most importantly people you
know these While God provides.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
Write a check, we just you know what I'm saying.
I was like, the provision is telling y'all write a check.

Speaker 4 (01:06:32):
You know, I'm glad you said that because we just
had to replace our roof. It was forty thousand dollars. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Oh yeah, listen, he loves it when y'all bringing props checks.

Speaker 4 (01:06:47):
Yeah, so you know we had to pay for it again.
Because we couldn't stop, you know, helping the youth. But
that's forty thousand going out of our account. We're nonprofit,
and so I'm opposed to videos soon like, Hey, if
you willing to help put some of that back, we
truly appreciate it. So thanks for mentioning that.

Speaker 1 (01:07:03):
Yes, I understand the struggle already. So yes, everybody, make
sure that you not only verbally support the Cave and Jason,
but financially supports the Cave as well so he can
keep doing what you're doing. All right, Well, thank you, Jason.
I appreciate you and supporting you both up close and
from power away.

Speaker 4 (01:07:22):
Appreciate you too.

Speaker 1 (01:07:25):
One more segment to go coming up next, the Final Spin.
Time now for the final spin, the topic wrestling legend
Hulk Hogan passes away at the age of seventy one.

(01:07:46):
The spin, it is wrong to bring up the fact
that Hulk Hogan exposed himself as a racist. The truth
even in death surfacing hok Hogan's racism is fair game.
Now listen, I used to love ho covid, yeahd me,
sam My prayers, even my vitamins, and practicing his infamous
leg drop in a living room he was larger than life,

(01:08:06):
and then he showed the world he had a pretty
small mind. As part of a massive civil lawsuit Hogan
won against Gawker Media for publishing portions of a sex tape,
it was discovered that Hogan also made some bio racist
remarks during the recording. Now on the recording, Hogan is
heard expressing disgust at the idea of his daughter dating

(01:08:27):
a black man, and he uses the N words several times. Now,
Hogan issued an apology and said he wasn't a racist,
but a lot of people, especially black people, didn't get
the feeling he was being sincere. He even blamed growing
up in Florida for the reason that he used these
harmful words, even though plenty of people grow up in
Florida and don't express the disdain that he did for

(01:08:49):
black men. When this happened, Hogan was sixty one years old,
which is more than enough time for Hogan to have
developed a more worldly opinion about black people. But Hogan's
brought up questions about whether it's fair to remember the
bad parts of someone when they die, to which I say,
everybody is entitled to their own remembrances, and just because

(01:09:10):
you die. That doesn't negate the bad things that you've done,
particularly when there is still a question of accountability. Now,
there's also the fact that Hogan essentially became a Trump cheerleader,
showing support for someone who also has a track record
for behaving and speaking like a racist.

Speaker 2 (01:09:26):
Now, Huk Hogan was a.

Speaker 1 (01:09:27):
Great wrestler and the perfect character Terry Balaa Hok Cogan's
real name was the man and a deeply falled person.
This concludes another episode of Politics. You can reach me
across social media or via email. I'm at Jamail Hill
across all social media platforms, Twitter, Instagram, fan based, bluestoyt
and threads. Please use the hashtags politics. You also have

(01:09:50):
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Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
Politics is spelled sbo l I t i c S.

Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
A new episode of Politics drops every Thursday on iHeart
podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. This is politics
where sports and politics don't just Mix.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
They Matter.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
Politics is the production of iHeart Podcasts and the Unbothered network.
I'm Your host Jamel Hill. Executive producer is Taylor Schakoigne.
Lucas Hymen is.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
Head of Audio and executive producer.

Speaker 1 (01:10:36):
Original music for Spolitics provided by Kyle Visk from wiz
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