Ep 41: The Politics of Turf Wars - Featuring DeMaurice Smith - Spolitics

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what's up everybody.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to politics and I heard
podcast and unbothered production.

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Time to get spolitical canvas.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Parker found herself in an unexpected controversy last week when
the basketball commentator decided to do something crazy.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
She gave her opinion about basketball.

Speaker 3 (00:27):
Cameron Brink I think is the unknown. So I put
Cameron Brink on the sea level.

Speaker 4 (00:34):
I think just in terms.

Speaker 3 (00:35):
Of her kind of showing glimpses of what she's capable of.
I think WNBA, with the space and her length and versatility,
she's going to be able to have an impact on
the defensive end immediately. Then you got Angel Reese. I
put her right at that sea level. I think in
terms of being above, you have to be able to
have the.

Speaker 4 (00:53):
Ability to carry a team, be a one or two option.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
I think Angel Reese is fantastic at her role, which
is offensive rebounding, showed and demonstrated so much growth in
that first year.

Speaker 2 (01:03):
Complex asked Candace to give her tears of WNBA players,
and the shit hit the absolute fan because of where
she ranked Angel Rees. And that's because in that same ranking,
Candace ranked a certain player in Indiana here.

Speaker 3 (01:17):
This is where it gets tricky. Caitlyn Clark is at
an a level. I think in time she's going to
rease up to that ask. But in order to put
her at that level, you got to have a couple
more years.

Speaker 2 (01:30):
Now, maybe Candace didn't know the unofficial rules when it
comes to critiquing Caitlyn Clark and the Angel Rees, and
that is you can't critique them without pissing off a
lot of people.

Speaker 1 (01:40):
Now, Angel Rees fans let Candace have it.

Speaker 2 (01:43):
They flooded her Instagram comments, calling her a hater, a sellout,
and everything else in between because she, a basketball analyst, gave.

Speaker 1 (01:51):
An opinion about basketball. Now.

Speaker 2 (01:53):
It probably didn't help that Angel Reise herself appeared to
fire back at Candace on Twitter with this post clout
is one hell of a drug. Like it really gets
to a point and we're off now. Just as I
don't have a problem with Candace giving her opinion, I
don't have a problem with Adel Reese appearing to clap back.
But here's what I do have a problem with the

(02:14):
overprotectiveness of both Taylor Clark and Angel Reese, something neither
of these players have asked for, but it's representative of
a much larger problem, which Candace Parker pointed out on
her podcast Post Moves, which she hosts with Aliah Boston.
You recently, you recently went viral for your comments on Angel,

(02:34):
people calling you a hater because you put her in
your tiar C rankings.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
What's your response to that?

Speaker 3 (02:41):
Okay, for those of you that don't know, I did
tier ranking, and I'm going to list the players, Asia Wilson, No,
Fisa Collier, Brianna Stewart, Caitlin Clark, Kelsey Plum, Sabrina and Nascu,
Arika Gumbawalle, Pagebackers, cam Brink, and Injelies. I was asked
to tier rank them from S all the way down.

Speaker 4 (03:04):
To D I believe or E. I think it was
actually E.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
And with that being said, I ranked some players and
Asia Wilson and the Fisa Collier and Brianna Stewart as s.

Speaker 4 (03:17):
The rest kind of fell between A and C.

Speaker 3 (03:19):
For all of those that are commenting comments under random
Instagram posts about me, I didn't even realize that I
went viral for this until I realized when I was
kind of getting alerts on my Instagram of people being like,
you're a hater, all this and all that to all
of those.

Speaker 4 (03:38):
First of all, some are misinformed and uninformed.

Speaker 3 (03:41):
And I feel like in this day and age, we
are very right now a majority of people probably have
not even seen the entire interview because we have attention
spans like goldfish, and so they probably couldn't sit through
the entire interview. But I say all that to say
that we have to come to a place in women's

(04:01):
basketball where we can critique without being a hater. And
I challenge all of you all to understand that I,
in no way, shape or form, am a hater. I
am going to be facts to the table. And with
that being said, the facts that I want to bring
to this table. And I challenge anybody to tell me
what player are you taking Angel Reese over of those
that I just listed.

Speaker 4 (04:22):
That's the wait for their response, Oh, We're.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
Not gonna okay, because yeah, but what I'm saying is
in what player?

Speaker 4 (04:29):
And this is no disrespect.

Speaker 3 (04:30):
These are the greatest players in the game right now.
They asked me to rank the tier right now, and
I sit in a studio at Turner with Shaq and
Chuck and some of which I think at times they
do individually and personally attack people's character, and I think
I pride myself on trying to be an analyst that
does not do that.

Speaker 4 (04:51):
I do not attack character.

Speaker 3 (04:52):
I I literally am just from my point of view,
from my opinion.

Speaker 4 (04:57):
This was the ranking.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Before I am all of that.

Speaker 2 (05:00):
Let me say this first, I actually don't agree with
Kansas Parker's ranking of Caitlin Clark or Angel Rees. I
don't think Caitlin is an eight tier player just yet,
especially not this season. She's been hurt most of this season,
and even when she has played she shot fourty, She's
shooting twenty eight percent from three and is shooting thirty
seven percent from the field overall. She's also averaging five

(05:21):
turnovers a game, which is unacceptable when she has the
ball in her hand as much as she does now.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
When it comes to Angel, her and Camera Brink aren't
on the same tier.

Speaker 2 (05:31):
Brent, who I saw last week in person when she
returned to the court for the first time since tearing
her ACL.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Over a year ago. She has a lot of potential.

Speaker 2 (05:38):
She's a terrific rebounder with a nice shooting touch, and
is someone who has an extremely high ceiling, But at
this point in their careers, Angel is a much better player.
Angel is averaging fourteen a game and the league leading
twelve rebounds.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
This season, she became the fastest player in league.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
History to reach one hundred and fifty rebounds and fifty
six in a single season. Now that said, Candace is
not only entitled to her opinion, she's paid to give it,
and she is right that we have to graduate to
a point where we can give honest evaluations about women's players,
especially Caitlyn Clark and Angel Reese, without it turning into

(06:17):
some kind of civil war. Now, when Clark confronted an
official last month, I posted this on threads.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Caitlyn Clark's behavior toward.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
The officials and her tendency to power when her offense
isn't working has been a problem since college.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
She has to be a better leader, period.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
And because I knew how people will react to my criticism,
I added, you're not being a hater by pointing that out.
If we're going to praise Caitlin when she's great, then
it's born and fair to criticize her when she falls short.
Stop the coddling. She doesn't need it. But that didn't
stop people from being weird about it. From Emily Ryan

(06:55):
nineteen eighty four fourteen points thirteen says five three defensive
boards a block, all while attracting a ton of defensive
attention to open up her teammates, responsible for forty of
her teams one hundred and three points versus.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Dallas, all in twenty four fucking minutes.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
She's contributing in other ways when the shots aren't falling
due to the leg injury. Bitch, she sings nice from
HL boy or fifteen. You have been a hateland since
day one.

Speaker 1 (07:25):
Hateland.

Speaker 2 (07:26):
That's kind of funny. You can't be taken seriously no more.
Keep your focus on praising the other w NBA players
you love while they not clipboards out of the coach's hand,
not players to the ground, scratch people in the eye,
yell at the referees, elbowed them in the face, pulling
them down to the ground by their hair, calling other
players things like bitch ass, punk ass, and shut your

(07:48):
fat ass. Continue to celebrate that peace out. Just one
hinge now some of Aingerese's fans aren't any better.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
And another threa is post.

Speaker 2 (07:59):
In June, I wrote this after Angel rees not her
first triple double of her career. In Chicago's win over Connecticut,
this is the best this skuy have looked offensively all season.
Are Rees has her first career triple double. I haven't
loved how Chicago.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Has used her.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
She's at her best as a playmaker and when she
can use her athleticism. Agree with Lee so Leslie that
she needs to work on our layup package, but she'll
get there. Seem pretty but not to me. But that
wasn't how Angelice's fans took it from Black veg and Joy.
Save the critiques for another day. What does it cost
to let someone basket? A moment from Blackbird seven forty seven.

(08:37):
That last part totally wasn't needed, especially because you know
how people are. People forget that angel was a guard
until she had a gross furd, so her playmaking ability.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Shouldn't shock anyone. Now.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
One problem I've observed in women's sports, and especially as
it relates to the WNBA, is that there is entirely
too much kyling by both the media and the fans.
There is nothing wrong with healthy disagree and debate. Arguing
about sports can be a lot of fun. Believing, ignorant,
and hateful messages on Candice Parker's Instagram page and questioning

(09:08):
her blackness over a basketball opinion is silly. Besides, we're
not talking about foreign affairs and geopolitical issues here. We're
talking about basketball. It ain't never that serious. We should
be able to talk about two of the biggest stars
in the WNBA and Caitlin Clark and Angelies without taking
a trip to toxic town. I'm Jamel Hill, and I

(09:29):
approved this message. My guest today recently held one of
the most important and powerful positions in all of pro football.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
For fourteen years, he.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
Was the executive director of the NFL Players Association, the
union that represents nearly seventeen hundred active players concerning all
workplace issues. The collective bargaining Agreement benefits for both current
and retired players grievances against the league, among other important matters. Now,
when you hold this position, you get to see how

(10:00):
the sausage is made, and that is not always a
pretty sight. My guest wrote about what it was like
to sit in this seat, how it was dealing with
the NFL owners and what they were really like and
what they thought of the players who are the soul
of this league, which is the most powerful professional sports
organization in America. In his new book, turned Wards, he

(10:21):
is extremely candid about his relationship with NFL Commissioner Roger
Goodell and powerful owners such as Robert Kraft and Jerry Jones.
I also asked him about the nflpa's current leadership controversy,
which involves the executive director that followed him resigning after
some serious allegations about colluding with the NFL, conflicts of interest,
and even a spending spree at Magic City. Yeah, I

(10:44):
mean the Strip Club. Coming up next on spolitics, Demorris
Smith Dial want to thank you for joining me here
on politics. I'm going to start this podcast by asking
you a question I ask every guest that appears on politics,

(11:06):
and that is name an athlete or a moment that
made you love sports.

Speaker 5 (11:11):
Hmmm. First of all, it's a pleasure to be here
in politics. Second, if I had to answer the question
Muhammad Ali, I'm in law school, I'm a second year
law school student. We're studying criminal procedure and one day
in walks Muhammad Ali to our class and my law
professor had clerked for Thirdgod Marshal and at the time

(11:36):
Ali had at least one of his houses was in Charlottesville.
So we were studying the Supreme Court and procedural things
on making their way up into the Supreme Court, and
in walks Muhammad Ali as a guest speaker, and I
don't know if I've ever been speechless, just utterly speechless.
So he told the story of you know, him being

(12:00):
criminally prosecuted for asserting his religious preference, for not going
to the draft. And then the law professor then took
it from the procedural ways that this thing ended up
working in and out of the court, and you know,
the punchline is at the end, the Supreme Court's pure
curium decision was really a procedural decision. They didn't really

(12:21):
weigh in on whether they believe that he legitimately exercised
his religious preference or not because they didn't have the votes.
But what they did have the votes for was that
there was a violation of procedure and that convergence of
somebody as iconic and brave and you know, as an athlete,

(12:43):
I would make an argument, I think you can make
a pretty good argument that easily the most quintessential, most
important athlete in American history, I would say, is Muhammad Ali.
So to be there on that day and have all
of that converge with like a dorky law school student,
you know, learning procedure. Hands down, that's my favorite athlete
and favorite moment.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Now.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
I don't know if you how much you thought about
this as you were beginning your law career, But did
you ever look at being a lawyer and sort of
marry that with activism.

Speaker 5 (13:16):
Absolutely, I just had this blessing in law school, more
dorky than you ever want to know. But when I
was in law school, there was this battle between sort
of the right wing fundamentalists, you know Scalia crowd, and
at the time there was another sort of train of

(13:38):
thought in the law called legal the critical Legal Studies movement,
and that was sort of a Harvard based movement about,
you know, the law should be working to make things
more fair to right wrongs, and that you have to
understand that the law and the way that the law
has developed. You know, over the almost two hundred and
fifty years, a whole lot of decisions about race and

(14:01):
class engender went into deciding what the law was going
to be. And so at that time at UVA, there
was this like healthy battle between these folks. So I
was blessed because I was literally taught that way. You know,
when you step away, you know, my family leaves the
Jim crows out and my dad, you know, goes through

(14:24):
whatever he goes through. My mom goes through whatever they
go through. They both are products of segregated schools, segregated
trade schools, predominantly segregated colleges. I just never thought that
the law was anything other than it's about making sure
that justice was fair. So for me, you know, I

(14:49):
was probably a little more conservative than my parents growing up.
So by the time I would come home, man, they
would just the dinner table was, you know, a blood
sport of you know, me trying to like, well, there's
this constitutionalist argument, and my parents were like, so which
one of the slave owners do you think? Yeah? I mean,

(15:12):
and I look back on it now, and it's the
best education I could have. One that was great in
school and one where I could come home and my
parents just never spared truth. And I gave them the
first copy of Here for was Yesterday. Yeah, oh he is.
My dad is ninety five and my mother's ninety one.

(15:36):
What a blessing, complete bussy. Yeah, that's a big blessing.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
So yeah, let's get into it, because I had an
opportunity to read her wars, and I'm not sure what
I expect. I guess whenever people of your position you
haven't served what fourteen years, fourteen years as executive director
of the NFL Players Association, I guess you always expect
the transparency to have his limits.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yep, right, Yeah, can't say that's the case of your book.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah, yeah, because I'm in the first ten pages, I'm like, oh,
this is this is where we are right now, where
you are being incredibly transparent and very honest about the
NFL power dynamics, about NFL owners, particularly Jerry Jones and
Robert Kraft, about Roger Goodell.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
You really laid bare your experiences.

Speaker 2 (16:28):
So why did you want to be this transparent, especially
about this league?

Speaker 5 (16:34):
Yeah? I think I think it was important for me
to write a book that wasn't a football book. And
and you know, in some respects better than others that
the sports industry, on one hand, is fantastic because we
get to spend time, you know, facilitating or watching or

(16:59):
supporting great athletes doing things that we wish we could do.
You know the fact that it brings, you know, it
does bring America together, but the reality is for good,
and I honestly say, and for bad. Sport is the
cultural center of America. And I'm a big believer in sport,

(17:22):
but I think that it can only be a meaningful
it can only have a meaningful cultural relevance if we're
true about it. And while I love football, I happen
to love the players better. But I felt it was
important to tell a story that was kind of based

(17:43):
in truth. And it doesn't mean that we are indicting
sport or indicting the NFL, but this the the plantation
mentality is a real one. And I decided, you know,
instead of just saying that, well, how about we just
bring receipts. And the fact that race and class and

(18:07):
gender permeates every part of American society, it does the
same thing in sport. And so I think, hopefully, you know,
if people want to get something good from turf wars,
looking at sport as a microcosm of America is I
think a healthy thing for us to do. And this

(18:29):
idea that you know you were talking earlier about, you know,
the law and our forefathers. Look, I think that there
are some great things that our forefathers did, coming up
with the structure of the constitution, ignoring the fact that
many of them were slave holding individuals who wanted to
create a government that protected them. That's just the truth.

(18:52):
So I don't think we have to be binary. You know,
football is good, football is bad. The owners are good
or the owners are bad. Most of them are bad.
But I do think that we have to have an
obligation to look at this truthfully and then understand where
everybody fits in it. You know, where do the players fit,

(19:12):
where does the press fit? And where does a union fit?

Speaker 2 (19:16):
So I was struck by so many things about the
way you wrote about the dynamics. Now, obviously, as somebody
who grew up, you know, in the South as you did,
and with your parents and the legacy of your family
having been through what they had gone through, clearly you
understood race and racism. But it seemed like during your

(19:39):
time and dealing with these group of billionaires who don't
want to be told what to do, who are you know,
majority white, right, that that probably, at least what I
could pick up from your book, that that gave you
a different sensibility about race.

Speaker 5 (19:55):
What was that you know, when I think the sensibility
that the.

Speaker 1 (19:59):
Change was you.

Speaker 5 (20:01):
Understand that that is just a reality of America, and
it is you know, it is a given. And I
think people like us are reminded that it's a given
every day when you come out of law school like
I did, and you you know, you have a job
at the US Attorneys Office and it's fantastic, and then
you move into private practice and it's fantastic, and at

(20:23):
least in those environments, your your relationship does change a
little bit because you know, I mean I had some
tough judges, but I never appeared in front of a
judge where I thought that they woke up in the
morning about race and whether they were superior or inferior,

(20:47):
and then went to bed thinking about race in class.
I frankly, you know, the clients that I represented in
private practice, you know, I mean, it wasn't like we
were having a ton of private conversations with each other.
But what I find found in business was that at
least in the courtroom and and and and most of
the companies that I represented, there was a certain level

(21:07):
of Okay, whatever we want to deal with, we're just
gonna we're just gonna deal with it like a business.
And I thought that coming into the National Football League,
especially the way that I did, I thought, Okay, well
that will it'll be just like that. And it's not.
It's it's the only place that I know of that,

(21:31):
for the most part, doesn't run like a business. And
the first two years was was somewhat of a like
a like a literally a bucket of cold water being
splashed in your face, thinking Okay, this is an incredibly
successful business. I mean, it's it's wildly successful, and I

(21:52):
would argue, for a certain extent it's successful in spite
of itself. But you're talking about a business that adds,
for the most part, a billion dollars of revenue every
year regardless of anything. I mean, the only thing that
even produced a hiccup was a worldwide pandemic. But wars, recessions, elections,

(22:14):
nothing stops football. And when I came in, I thought, well, okay,
then that must mean an incredibly group of principal people
running it purely on business terms, devoid of emotion, devoid
of personal thought, or it's not that. And the last

(22:37):
thing I would say, Jamil is there's only been three
executives well, for well, anyway, there's only been three to that.
When I took over, there had only been three and
and Ed Garvey what was still alive Gen Upshaw? Unfortunately
it had passed away. I never knew Gene. I brought

(22:57):
ed back. The reason why I wanted to write Turf
Wars is almost no one negotiates with thirty one billionaires.
I mean no one. And and I think you know,
the more that it became clear to me that football

(23:18):
was literally a microcosm of America. And then near the
end of the book, it's almost if America is becoming
a microcosm of the NFL. It just became the story
that I thought I had to tell, frankly, in the
same way that Marvin Miller told his story, in the
same way that Malcolm X told his story. I think,

(23:40):
I think if we take these lessons to the grave,
we do a disservice.

Speaker 2 (23:46):
So when you were getting acclimated to being in this
very powerful position as executive director, it seemed like you
dealt with a lot of microaggressions, micro aggressions from the owners.
By that one particular part, we talk about how the
former Panthers owner Jerry Richardson called you uppity.

Speaker 5 (24:06):
Which was like, what, Well, first of all, that was
exactly my take. I was like, man, I mean, whoa,
this is like a long way from Sanford and Son.
I mean, like, what are we doing? Yeah, but you know, again,
this is a this is a meeting where you know,
ten owners are on one side of the table. I'm

(24:28):
I'm there with ten players on the other side of
the table, including Bayton Manning, which is hilarious for its
own sits, but you know, these are all grown people,
and the meeting goes so sideways, and then on the
way out, you know, he turns to me and he says, well,
there's no reason for you to be uppitty. I'm like, well,

(24:49):
first of all, what I mean? You know, I mean
I heard my parents talk about the word uppity, but
you know it's I don't know, that's got to be
a little at least fifty years who said that. I mean.
I was like, well, boss, you know I couldn't. And

(25:11):
you know, well, two things happened from that meeting that
I thought were absolutely hilarious. That was the first one.
The second one was Jerry Richardson and Peyton man And
get into a conversation where literally Jerry Richardson is so
condescent and so mean to Peyton, and Peyton just literally

(25:32):
just like just responds just a nice guy. I mean,
Jerry Richardson was asking him, you know, does he understand
a profit? And last statement, does he understand what a
balance sheet is? I mean, it was the most condescending conversation.

Speaker 1 (25:45):
Was this a refreshment memory? Was this a CBA?

Speaker 5 (25:48):
CBA? I mean, and just like to bring your whole
audience in. I mean, it ended up on the cutting
room floor the context of the meeting. But Roger and
I had gotten together and and we kind of decided, Okay,
we've these meetings have not been great, but it's important
to kind of show that we're trying to get something done.
So we decide to have a meeting during the week

(26:09):
of Super Bowl. We both know that nothing dramatic is
going to come out of the meeting, but the whole
idea is let's just bring our sides together. But sure,
we're trying to get something done. Let's try to build
some momentum. Fine, five minutes into a meeting that wasn't
supposed to matter, it goes completely off the rails because
Jerry Richardson decides to go on this screed about you know,

(26:30):
players being poorly, poorly managed, that they don't have an
ability to manage their money. If they had the ability
to manage their money like him, they would own teams.
So now the meeting turns into what really should have
been nothing. Okay, you've now turned me into a wild man.
So I respond to that, and the whole meeting goes

(26:50):
absolutely crazy. But again the thing, forget the fact that
he called me up at the players lost their minds
on our side of the table, that they were that
he was rude to Peyton Manning. I have never seen
my group of guys so angry in my life. This
is crazy. I'm like, well, I mean they called me

(27:11):
a name.

Speaker 6 (27:12):
I'm yeah, disrespected him, You disrespected Peyton Like all right, hey,
let's let's everybody just take a deep breath.

Speaker 5 (27:23):
And that was the end of the meeting and everybody
walked out. But that was just a pure micro aggression.
And and I guess going to you know, answering your
first question about you know this, You walk into this
world and you expect it to be at least professional.
The fact that someone would decide to drop that, you know,

(27:45):
to me on the way out of the meeting. It's
just one of those it's not even tactically smart. So,
you know, the their willingness to engage in this, you know,
was sort of the first window into not only who
they are, but the way in which they envisioned this
as their kingdom and everybody should be thankful just to

(28:11):
be a part of it.

Speaker 2 (28:12):
Well, that's was going to ask you, like, how soon
Obviously things often get contentious when we're talking about labor
unrest and the possibility of.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
Labor strife, But before.

Speaker 2 (28:25):
That, how soon did you realize exactly how owners view players?

Speaker 5 (28:34):
And you know, I would say probably it took. It
took about a year before they really became explicit about
the way in which they thought of players as property.
And you know, I remember being stuck on a stuck

(28:54):
on a golf cart with with Mike Brown, who even yesterday.

Speaker 1 (29:00):
That yeah, the owner of the Bengals, owner of the.

Speaker 5 (29:02):
Bengals, yesterday during a press conference, you know where he's
in a contract, you know, fight with with one of
his first second round draft picks, you know, says well,
I'm not going to pay for a guy to sit
in jail.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
I thought it was was it just me? But I
was like, why did he immediately go to jail?

Speaker 5 (29:21):
Why did you go straight to jail? I mean, he's
a young man out of college who isn't in jail.
I mean, as we would say, I mean, you went
straight to eleven, you know. And but but that's the
that's the mentality. And whether it was sitting at a
golf cart with with Mike Brown or meeting Al Davis,

(29:45):
you they never they never missed the opportunity. I would say,
after the first year or so, to remind me that
the way that they thought about this was, no, this
is this ours and this whole labor thing, and you're
going to come in as kind of a strident union leader.

(30:09):
You just need to remember that you're playing in our sandbox. So,
you know, almost after a year it was clear to
me that they never wanted to think about this as
a partnership. I mean, they'll say whatever they want to
say publicly, but privately and even in meetings it would

(30:31):
be it would be a stretch to say that we sit.
We would sit in meetings and they would be sort
of conscientious negotiations. You know. It was just a well
we have this and we're going to do this until
someone stops us. And literally that was the mentality that

(30:54):
you know, you could now look at to what's going
on in the country. It's well, you know, I mean,
we know the constitution says this, or we know the
law says this, but we're just going to do this
until someone stops us. And it's a it's a pure
power play. And it's almost an embracing or or glorification

(31:14):
that might mix, right, and and so you know, and
and I'll take this to my grave. That was the
best thing for our players to see because even coming
in when I was trying to, you know, teach our
guys about sort of the history of labor and management,
not only in sports but in the country. The labor

(31:37):
management dynamic is always one that's contentious. It has to
be contentious. But you know, players want to believe that, well,
they would never really do anything bad to us because
we're we're the players. It's not that they would never
do anything bad to you. They just know you're funcible.

(31:57):
And the sort of the best thing that ever happened
was this sort of consistent, disrespectful way in which they
would approach the players, their unwillingness to even engage or
in the beginning with sort of fair bargaining. You know,
it taught the players something that I couldn't teach them,
and I think to a certain extent, it's something that

(32:21):
every player in every sport should understand.

Speaker 2 (32:25):
One of the things you definitely talk about in your
book is about how it was your practice you went
to every locker room. Yeah, in the NFL, as you said,
trying to explain to the players, Hey, here's what they
think about you. Yep, this is what you're fighting for,
just kind of reminding them about things that are important.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
But the part that.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Was eye opening for me, and it seemed to be
for you as well, and I'd love for you to
tell me more about it, is that there seemed to
be a level of naivet that existed among the players.
Like if the owners have a plantation mentality, Yeah, the
player's mentality is they don't know that's the mentality that
you have.

Speaker 5 (33:06):
It's true. And I you know, I I love the players.
You know, I probably spend more time defending them than
I probably should. I think it's I think it's tough
for them because for many of our guys, this is

(33:27):
their first job, and I learned about labor and management
from Jerry Subshop. Right. You know you have a bad day,
you have a bed day school, you know you might
have a flat tire. Man, the dude at the office
at the restaurant does not care. Come in, do your hours,
cook the pizzas, don't burn the food, and you understand that.

(33:47):
I think sometimes players think that this is just all
a game, and that you know, they're lucky to be
able to play in college. They're thrilled to be able
to play in college and then are good enough to
now play in the pros. And I think that comes
with a certain number of assumptions that few people challenge.

(34:09):
And their assumption is, well, we're we're the players, so
they're going to do everything to make us happy and
keep us happy and pay us. No, no, there's I mean,
in the NFL, you're the greatest players in the world.
But man, there's a ton of people just to replace you,

(34:29):
and they're happy to replace you. And you know, one
of the reasons I would tell the story about Bill Radovich,
the football player in the nineteen forties who goes off
to service country in World War Two. He comes back
in nineteen forty five, after being All Pro, he plays
one year more with the Detroit Lions. He finds out

(34:51):
that his father is dying of cancer in California, and
he says to the Detroit Lions owner, I want to
move to a team in California to be closer to
my dad. Detroit Lions owner tells this all pro, if
you don't sign again with the Lions, you'll never play
for another NFL team. This guy was an All Pro
four years starter who was a war hero. No, they

(35:16):
just want control, and there is a certain level of
naivete that I think every player walks into until someone
dispels him. And I felt that was my job, because
you can't have a strong union if you think that
the owners or everything you have from a pension to

(35:38):
four one K to healthcare to work rules, if you
think all of those are fantastic, magical gifts that the
owners just give to you, No, they will not only
take them all away, but you forget that people went
on strike for those things, and people lost their jobs
fighting for those things, and you have now this obligation

(35:59):
to play at forward. So no, I never kind of
shot away from being confrontational with my own guys, because
I'm going to tell you the truth and maybe your
agent won't or maybe your coach won't, but I'm neither
one of those cats.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
So since we're on the topic of collusion, here we go.

Speaker 2 (36:21):
You know, I want to ask you you know exactly
what I out, but you get the reprieve. I have
to take a quick break and then we will come
back on the other side and discuss the latest collusion
issues that have come up in the NFLPA more with
d Smith when we return.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
All right, as I said, on the other side of
the break.

Speaker 5 (36:48):
Is trying to get myself together.

Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yes, I will try to answer or ask these questions
as carefully as I can, because I realized that you
were somebody who was on oath right for this. I was, yes,
you did, and I also filed the collusion and you
filed the collusion case.

Speaker 5 (37:04):
So there's all sorts of privileges.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yes, So to bring everybody up to speed, you filed
a collusion case.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
When did you file this case? Exactly?

Speaker 5 (37:12):
It was twenty we were twenty three twenty.

Speaker 1 (37:16):
Yes, it was one of those.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
So this is all related to Deshaun Watson's contract, correct,
which fully guaranteed two and thirty thirty two million dollars
given to him by the Browns. We know the kind
of issues and allegations against Deshaun Watson. Most people consider
that to be arguably the worst contract in NFL history.

(37:40):
Not for Deshaun Watson, certainly, I agree, not for the
NFLPA either.

Speaker 1 (37:44):
So understand that.

Speaker 5 (37:45):
God bust the owner.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Yes, so he gets that contract, and then it seems
like you begin to notice some patterns, yes, after Deshaun
Watson was given that contract. So take me through that
part about what is it that made you file a
collusion case against the NFL?

Speaker 5 (38:01):
Can you say, yeah, I'm not sure. I can't really,
I can say this, well, we can't talk about what
went into the legal thought to file the case, because
you know I can. We can talk about what was public.
You know. I definitely remember when Steve Bushatti came out
after the Deshaun Watson contract and I'm going to paraphrase,
but you know, words to the effect of, you know,

(38:24):
I think a fully guaranteed contract, you know, was wasted
on a guy like that. And look, I can't talk
about sort of the legal machinations that led to it,
but that statement alone as a standalone statement. I mean
three things pop out, you know immediately. First, why would

(38:45):
any other owners say anything about another owner's decision to
hire a person. I mean, I I've been in this
business for a long time. I don't remember another owner
commenting on another owner's contract. I mean, it just doesn't happen.
So I have a hard time believing that it was
a mistake. You know. Number two, You know, I have

(39:08):
a hard time. You know, when he says, you know,
a guaranteed, fully guaranteed contract going for a person like that. Okay,
my next question is going to be when you say
like that, what do we I mean, DeShawn didn't play
for a year, but the year before he played it
was lights out, So I mean, this was a high
performing player while he was in Houston. So what part

(39:30):
of like that are we are we talking about? Because
I thought that these contracts were based on how well
you perform on the field. And by the way, if
he violated some sort of of league policy or had
engaged in some sort of crime or something else, none
of those were the case for Deshaun Watson at that point.

(39:52):
He didn't get punished by the league until after Now,
the third thing is well, if you don't think that
a fully guaranteed contract is worthy of a guy like that,
then who should deserve one? Maybe it's Oh, I don't
know your quarterback, so you know, I can remember being
struck by that for those three reasons, and you know,

(40:15):
jumping forward, Yes, I authorized the filing of of the
collusion case and then I left. I did testify at it,
but and then I left, uh, before the before the decision.

Speaker 2 (40:29):
So when you filed the collusion case, it wasn't just
about Lamar Jackson.

Speaker 5 (40:34):
Correct, we filed Yeah, we filed on behalf of quarterbacks.

Speaker 2 (40:38):
It was behalf of quarterbacks. Was it specifically? It was Kler, Murray,
Caller Murray and Lamar Jackson. I was just kind of
I thought Russell Wilson was also in it. Yes, it was, Yes,
so these are the quarterbacks because you're looking at.

Speaker 5 (40:51):
Yeah, the way the grievance procedure works is you are
allowed to file a grievance for for almost anything, and
and you know you're focusing on, you know, what you
have potentially evidence of. So it was for the most
part pretty much a rifle shot towards quarterbacks. Guaranteed contracts.

(41:13):
And remember there's one more step before DeShawn. You know,
Kirk Cousins gets franchised twice, you know, and thanks to
the collective bargaining agreement. You know, the first time around
he gets the average of the top five, and then
the second time he gets the average of the top three,
and then rightfully so when he enters into the free
agent market, he says, why should I take a contract

(41:36):
as a free agent that structured worse than the deal
that I had when I was being franchised. So I
honestly was surprised that we didn't see more guaranteed contracts
after the Cousins contract. Then you fast forward to the
Watson contract. Okay, high performer didn't play for an entire
year gets a fully guaranteed contract. Well okay, I mean

(42:00):
people might debate whether or not that's a good one
or a bad one, but that's what the market bore.
And so now you're looking at a marketplace where you've
got three quarterbacks, two of which arguably are are are
are on their way to be Hall of famers, you know,
probably first ballot Hall of famers, and there's questions about

(42:22):
what kind of contract they're going to get. So, you know,
when a question arises like that. And by the way,
if you open up the CBA, the largest section in
the CBA, I would argue is about collusion. So it
goes to the heart of our relationship. So I never
shot away from filing grievances before because that's I think,
what a union is supposed to do. And then everything

(42:47):
plays out the way everything plays out.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
So for those who don't recause, Really, I think what
was an.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
Eyebrow raising moment for a lot of people was Lamar Jackson.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
Mar Jackson poised to supposedly have this new deal with
the Ravens. They give him an offer that other teams
can match, and right, no one inquires about Lamar Jackson,
which is bizarre. It's like, wait a minute, he's in
his mid twenties, he is an MVP. You would think

(43:21):
somebody like that, with his level of performance and what
he'd already accomplished, would be resetting the quarterback market.

Speaker 5 (43:28):
And none or at least indulging seven thousand telephone calls.

Speaker 2 (43:33):
Right, and suddenly you see in the media that there
are reports that Falcons aren't interested like people who really
need quarterbacks, I'm not interested in Lamar Jackson.

Speaker 5 (43:43):
Once again and again, can't talk about the grievance, but
that's all public. Yes, I mean the fact that you
had a number of people coming out. First of all,
nobody contacts him, then a number of people decide to
go public by saying they don't want them to say
they don't want.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
Was very strange.

Speaker 5 (44:01):
Again, you know it's and to me it is a
level of hubris that I found it stunning. I mean,
you know, you're you're sitting there with with a lot
of great athletes who are quarterbacks, right, I mean, and
they're they're good at they're great athletes. How many of

(44:23):
them are are MVPs and he has a non restrictive
tag on him? Where Okay, I mean the the they
could have come back and matched it or paid more.
But the fact that no one reaches out to a

(44:43):
transformational athlete. I've never seen that before. And as you said,
then it's followed by yeah, I'm not really interested. Well
who Once again, I have never really seen a moment
where all their owners and other teams were commenting on

(45:03):
other players on other teams.

Speaker 2 (45:06):
So quite a bit of reporting has been done since
a little bit has an issue about this, and obviously
have since left the NFLPA, where we then discovered that
there is this your grievance was what sixty one pages?
Or you have a decision the decision will excuse me
with sixty one pages. And there's all sorts of very
juicy interesting details. The biggest one is that there appeared

(45:29):
to be speaking of collusion, some kind of collusion between
the NFL or there was a confidentiality not collusion. There
was a confident confidentiality agreement signed between the NFLPA and
the NFL to not let out what I would think
would be extremely valuable information, particularly if you're a union
and you want to show your guys like, hey, we

(45:52):
got a big joker.

Speaker 1 (45:53):
Anybody who plays maids, we got a big joker.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Because we have text messages, we have evidence that there
are owners who were purposely trying to not fully guarantee contracts,
perfectly trying to set the market behind closed doors that
you didn't know about. Now since then, as a result,
the person who replaced you, Lloyd Ile, he has resigned.

(46:17):
I guess number two for better Yeah, I mean the
best way to put in JC Tretter.

Speaker 1 (46:21):
He is also resigned.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
So now there's this void of leadership given everything that
has happened that we have seen. If you're the players
and you're looking at this, what are you thinking about
the union? Like, why would the players even trust the
union after this is all unfolded?

Speaker 5 (46:40):
Yeah, well, lots of questions. I think what the players
as players have done in history, the thing that they
need to wrap their hands around is this is their union.
There is no union separate from the players. Both. I
work for them, union presidents work for them. I don't

(47:04):
think it's really I think instead of looking at, you know,
whether or not they should trust their union, I think
that they need to engage in ruthless introspection about what
type of union they want. And and you and I
beforehand we're talking about, you know, the w NBA Players
Union and the US Women's team Union. I've worked with

(47:25):
all of them.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
You know.

Speaker 5 (47:26):
The one thing I can say about those two unions,
every one of their members is invested in their union
and they take the there. They take their duties with
respect to their collective seriously. And I don't have a
lot of explanations for what went on. I wasn't there.

(47:47):
I wasn't a part of the search process for for Lloyd.
There's one hundred and one hundred or so union members.
There's one voting member and three alternates for every team.
That one hundred or so group of people elect an
eleven person executive committee, and their job is to hold

(48:11):
the executive director accountable. And I think what has to
happen in this void is I think people need to
go back and understand why you form a union in
the first place and rise to the occasion.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
But you even look at how Lloyd how who replaced you,
Lloyd Kyle Junior, How he was selected was very strange
to me.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
It was a very confidential process in which.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
It felt like he was sprung on the players and
that he they didn't get the benefit of figuring.

Speaker 1 (48:47):
Out or finding out who this guy actually is.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
And as a journalist, I have to say there was
some disconcerting things in his background. The fact that he
had been a part of this very sortid settlement involving
a whistleblower for his company, the fact that he is
a part of a group that is actually trying to
buy into the NFL, which seems immediate conflicts of interest.

(49:11):
You have an executive director that is also trying to
or is it also part of a group that is
trying to buy trying to gain access and become minority
ownership in an NFL team at the same time.

Speaker 1 (49:23):
So that's why I asked you about.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Yeah, this was very surprising considering the shape that you
left the union in.

Speaker 1 (49:34):
Yeah, how has all of this struck you?

Speaker 5 (49:41):
Sadness? I mean, it's you know, I think for any person,
and again, you know, I'm talking to someone who we
have so many similar experiences. You know, you work for
a company for a long time, you're a part of it,
you separate from it. There comes a time when you
just emotionally have to divest yourself from it. And it's

(50:04):
not it's not a hatred or or you know, you've
got some cross to bear. It's that chapter, was that chapter,
and you move on to a new chapter, and you
can't really kind of keep looking over your shoulder about
Hey man, I hope that what was going on over there.
You know, you just have to you have to move on.
And so, you know, I had fourteen almost fifteen years

(50:27):
of you know, a lot of stuff, but I was
always proud of what the players did. I ran for reelection.
The only thing I can say with respect to the
election you described versus I can contrast it to the
elections that I had.

Speaker 1 (50:43):
I mean, yeah, no, process was very different.

Speaker 5 (50:46):
It was very different.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
It was much more transparent. They had a close process.
For me, you knew anything, and I just didn't understand. Well,
I have some theories about it, but.

Speaker 5 (50:57):
Yeah, I look, I think you know, I ran for
well when I came in two thousand and nine, that
was a big election that ran for reelection. I don't
know three times that or something like that. Look, there
were times when, you know, I think all of those
elections to a certain extent were chaotic, you know, frenetic, messy.

(51:18):
But democracy is supposed to be messy. And I you know,
I look back on my elections, you know, whether it
was the first time or any of the ones going forward,
and you know, I'm pretty sure that for the guys
who went through it, I'm sure they would say, man,
I never want to go through something like that. Again,

(51:40):
democracy is supposed to be messy. And I think that
if you ever trade confidentiality and secrecy for some sort
of you know, praying at the altar of efficiency, you
can literally end up with the right answer, but somehow

(52:02):
get the wrong result. And you know, look, I would
never wish REP meetings, you know that we would have
on anyone. They are not for the faint of heart.
They just aren't. I mean, you've got one hundred guys
in a room. Everybody has an opinion. Guys tend to
be very emotional. I tend to be. I mean, in

(52:22):
their defense, I can be rather dogmatic and you know,
strident about things, and probably a little bit overly logical.
But you know that that's sort of that sort of
grist where it's uncomfortable, and yes, people get angry and
sometimes people get their feelings hurt, and it's certainly not efficient,

(52:44):
it's not pretty, but we always handled our business, and
you know, I even look back to the twenty twenty
deal was highly contentious, you know, the you know, some
players didn't want a seventeenth game, but they wanted all
the things that came from it. Some guys didn't want
to vote on the deal. Some guys didn't like some

(53:06):
of the terms. Some guys did, you know. And at
the end of the day, the CBA, I think, is
approved by sixty seven votes, but with almost an eighty
percent voting rate. So I know a lot of people
are like, well, man, you know, sixty seven votes. I mean,
that's just not a good endorsement of a deal. And
I'm like, well, look, I don't know if we've had

(53:28):
an election in the United States with eighty percent participation.
It was messy, but I think it's okay for democracy
to be messy. The things over the last few weeks
have just for the most part been literally heartbreaking. You know,
the people that work at the union. I mean, it's
it's a hard job, and most of those people took

(53:52):
that job because they love it, and they decided that
they were going to get paid less than they could
anywhere else. I mean, and I think about you know,
Gene and the fact that during the nineties when the
union decertified and yet they were still filing these lawsuits
for free agency from nineteen seventy one to nineteen ninety three,

(54:13):
you know, Gene and seven people. That's that was the
entire staff at the time, they worked without pay. I think,
looking at this, it just seems to me that that
right now the board has to decide what kind of

(54:33):
union they want, and that has to start with what
type of leader player leaders we want. And it's hard.
I mean, I look back, you know, that first executive
committee for me was you know, Brian Dawkins, and I
believe it or not, Mike Rabel and Drew Brees and
Kevin Mawai and Kevin Carter, and you know guys like

(54:57):
Mark Bruner and Brian Waters and Dominique Foxworth. You know,
when I met those guys in two thousand and I
guess the first one I met him was two thousand
and eight, I was struck literally by how old they seemed.
I mean, they just seemed like grizzled old men. They were.

(55:20):
Probably the average age was twenty seven, you know. But
I think what made them so mature beyond their years
is when you wake up one morning and the guy
who's run the union longer than you've been alive is dead,
and you know that a CBA war is on the horizon.
I think those guys became older than their years and

(55:45):
accepted a level of responsibility that should be should be
a banner for what the guys have to do.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Now, getting back to your book for a second, it
I don't want to mischaracterize.

Speaker 5 (55:59):
Yeah, yeah, but it did.

Speaker 2 (56:02):
Seem like you had a bit of a disdain for
Jerry Jones.

Speaker 5 (56:13):
I mean, well, I mean, disdain's harsh. I would say
that Jerry is one of the more interesting characters I've
ever met in my life. And I was a homicide
prosecutor for ten years, you know, so disdain is hard.

(56:34):
But you know, Jerry is a very tough person, I
mean tough. And the way that you know, I'm not
telling you anything you don't know, but the way that
he runs the Cowboys is a emperor running the cowboys.

(56:59):
And and I think Jerry and the way that he
wants to run the league is no different. I mean, interestingly,
he and I almost never had a crossword, you know,
except for a couple of times. But but unlike I mean,
he never called me up any but but wow, that's

(57:21):
just you know, I didn't think I would work in
up at he twice in the in this But but
Jerry's just a very tough guy and and he almost
literally wills things into existence, and and so I'm always

(57:42):
kind of fascinated by people like that because I'm a
little bit like that. But also I just am not
gonna let somebody run over our guys.

Speaker 2 (57:52):
Well, I was, in particular, it was you wrote this,
and I was thinking about this in light about in
light of his recent comments about Michael Parsons.

Speaker 5 (58:02):
A lot of this looks appreciate now.

Speaker 1 (58:04):
I was like, did you know, so he's.

Speaker 5 (58:10):
In a battle with Michael now over his contracts.

Speaker 2 (58:12):
Basically he takes a shot at Michaeh and then Dak
Prescott just catches a stranger as where he's just like,
all right, I mean, listen, you might get hurt of it.

Speaker 1 (58:21):
I mean, he just it's just things you don't say.

Speaker 5 (58:24):
It's things you don't say when you are.

Speaker 2 (58:26):
In the process of a contract negotiation with your best
defensive player. And I'm reminded of what you wrote about
Jerry interf Wars, which I'm going to read back here now,
where you said, uh, and that when it comes to
Jerry himself, black people can play for him, drive him
around in his luxury bus, and clean the stadium and
team facility, but lead with him, shape the league with him,

(58:49):
attend owners meetings and affect policy, and stand up to
systematic failures with him.

Speaker 1 (58:55):
Those are the lines he will not cross.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
And that is a very interesting characterization of him because
he's obviously one of the most successful owners in sports history.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
I don't think there's any doubt about that.

Speaker 2 (59:08):
When you think about what the the Cowboys are.

Speaker 5 (59:12):
Worth well or and how he built it.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
And how, yes, how he built it for one hundred
and forty million. I mean they need just well in
one of the greatest investments efforts.

Speaker 5 (59:21):
Of all time. And the way he operates it, right,
I mean, like I talk a little bit about going
to that boiler room, you know, the way that he
thinks about putting butts in the seats and building a
stadium that you know, everybody remember when that thing went online.
Everybody's laughing about the size of his jumbo trunk. Now
everybody wants one.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
It's the standard.

Speaker 5 (59:40):
Now it's the standard. And even his comments about, hey,
look we have owners in the National Football League who
aren't driving revenue and that's not good, you know. But
but I guess you know, to me, it's it's one
thing to rightly point out the things that he has

(01:00:06):
done on the business side that that are remarkable. But
if you ignore the things that at least were obvious
to me, I don't think you get a true picture
of who they are.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Oh and in fairness, in one of the other things
you wrote, which I thought was a very accurate description,
you you said that there's a limit to his views
on equality.

Speaker 5 (01:00:31):
Yeah there, look, there there are And look, I think
that that piece of reporting that first came out with
the Washington Post about you know, he's standing on the
steps when when they're integrating his high school. You know,
Jerry's comments about that weren't what you would have expected.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
They weren't great, right, they weren't great.

Speaker 5 (01:00:58):
So, I mean there's a certain level of I mean,
one other thing you got to remind me about Jerry,
and I know it's gonna sound incongruent, but he also
makes me laugh. I mean, he's he's hysterical. I mean,
I don't know whether he intends to be hysterical, but
he's hysterical. But you know, when faced with those kinds,
you know, when faced with the facts of where he

(01:01:20):
was on that day and you're given this opportunity to
kind of explain why were you there and what you
were thinking, it's striking to me that he didn't apologize, right,
I mean, it didn't even try to kind of put
a spin on it of well, no, they weren't great.

(01:01:43):
And I find it interesting that a person can make
the conscious decision of I don't have to I don't
have to say anything that makes you feel better, and
that's the that's the way he is, and a certain extent,
that's sort of the way a lot of the owners are.

(01:02:04):
This is a closed country club where even if you
have enough money, you can't you're not allowed entry. And
I think it has created a my only way of
describing it, was a fiefdom where they really, at least
on except for a couple occasions, they've been the need

(01:02:25):
to know one.

Speaker 2 (01:02:27):
That being said, and seeing how the financial dynamics are,
seeing how the social dynamics are among the owners. Will
we ever see a majority black owner in the NFL.

Speaker 5 (01:02:42):
I think the answer is yes. But but I don't
think that is going to be a bell weather for change.
I really don't. I mean, I'm trying to avoid like
causing more viral moments.

Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
But.

Speaker 5 (01:03:04):
I think this idea that somehow we are going to
get a majority black owner and somehow we're going to
fall into a post racial world like we thought many
people thought we were after you know, after the after
the president's second term, we didn't achieve a post racial world,

(01:03:27):
even though we had a black president for eight years.
I don't think anybody should hold their breath that we're
going to achieve, you know, a racial harmonious NFL ecosystem
if we have five black owners, I think I think
it has certainly has something to do with the color

(01:03:51):
and the character of the person who takes that job.
But remember, this is still an ecosystem that has to
admit to itself that its own rules doesn't work. I mean,
I don't you and I have been in this business forever.
What rule does the NFL have that doesn't work? I mean,

(01:04:17):
there's a rule about your socks, there's a rule about
your jersey. Some players have rules about their weight, there's
you know, all of the helmets are the same, everything's
the same. I mean, the rule book is is literally
one of the largest documents on the planet, and yet
they created their own rule that hasn't achieved its own goal.

(01:04:39):
And you know, I wrote an article for Yale. My
conclusion is, my only conclusion has to be is that's intentional.
You wanted to call it a rule because now it
sounds like something that's going to be enforced, but you
have zero intention of actually following. So I think we
I think the only thing that could lead to some

(01:05:02):
sort of systemic change in the National Football League is
what's brought about systemic change in the country. I mean,
we it laws and legislation are not perfect, but you know,
I thought Lyndon Johnson gave the best speech of presidents
ever given about about passing the Civil Rights Act. We

(01:05:24):
have rules that made it easier, or let me flip
it around. We have rules now that it made it
harder to discriminate against people of color and women and
sexual choice. And what are we seeing now. We're seeing
we're seeing a rollback of the accountability structures. Well, the
people who want to roll those things back, I mean,

(01:05:46):
I'm sure they think a certain way, but they understand
that that was that was the catalyst for change. So,
I mean, the National Football League exists. These teams exist
in jurisdictions that have statutes that criminalize discrimination. I don't

(01:06:09):
know of one state attorney general in any state where
there is an NFL team who has ever opened an
inquiry about whether there are discriminatory practices with respect to
coaching hires. I mean, I don't know of a better
prima facia case for discrimination by the NFL then their

(01:06:33):
coaches situation. And yet for some reason, no one has
ever opened up a civil investigation. Nobody has opened up
a criminal investigation, and the law is there, but until
someone believes that they're actually going to be accountable to
something bigger than themselves. You know, It's one of the

(01:06:54):
lines I wrote in the book, if you could get
away with anything, what would you do?

Speaker 2 (01:07:01):
You think we will ever see fully guarantee contracts in
the NFL.

Speaker 5 (01:07:05):
I think we well, I think that I think I do,
and I think I think it will be one of
the interesting collateral impacts of n I L. And I
think that what's happening now with players coming into the

(01:07:30):
National Football League. You know, the NIL system has has
I think rightfully allowed players to certainly use their name,
image and likeness. But but you know, the I guess
the sub part of it is it's made every player
aware of their value and it just simply means that

(01:07:51):
if you're the starting quarterback of blah blah blah school,
that's a power for school man. It means there's a
certain amount of money that is going to come your way.
I think that mentality is what's going to change in
the National Football League. That mentality that Okay, now I'm
you know, Joe Burrow or I'm or I'm Josh Allen

(01:08:11):
or any one of these folks. At some point, I
think those players have to say, well, wait, wait a minute,
why why am I taking all the risk? I mean
when you look at first round you know, first round
draft picks, I mean, those contracts are almost virtually one
arm percent guaranteed if I were them. Okay, you took

(01:08:32):
a guy like Kirk Cousins, and Kurt's a fantastic quarterback.
You know, may not be a first ballot Hall of Famer,
but that guy got too fully fully guaranteed contracts here.

Speaker 1 (01:08:46):
Say about my favorite Michigan State quarterback.

Speaker 5 (01:08:50):
And then he leveraged that into a fully guaranteed contract
as a free agent. I think that it's the mentality
that's going to bring that to to to fruition because
you know, again, no CBA guarantees contracts. I mean, you know,
Larry Bird literally changed the ecosystem on guaranteed contracts and

(01:09:11):
they became custom. I think the mentality of players coming
into the National Football League, aided by NFL, I think
it's going to change that mentality, and I think you're
gonna have players who are going to say I'm not coming.
I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:09:29):
Because they can make millions. Well, you know, saying that.

Speaker 5 (01:09:33):
Hey, if you're a free agent, okay, I'm not gonna
play right, I mean.

Speaker 1 (01:09:40):
You mean people already in the league.

Speaker 5 (01:09:41):
Not correct, not the okay, correct, correct, because that's the leverage.

Speaker 2 (01:09:44):
Right, It's just like, I'm not going to even deal
with you if you're not fully guaranteed.

Speaker 1 (01:09:49):
If they have the leverage of performance, and.

Speaker 5 (01:09:51):
That's and that was the level. I mean, you think
about the leverage of Kirk Cousins, right, and and you know,
talk about his performance as a quarterback either way you want,
but his performance, for whatever reason led the Washington team
to pay him the average of the top five fully guaranteed,

(01:10:13):
and then the average of the top three fully guaranteed.
And you can make a pretty good argument that Kirk
Cousins was not the top three. That's what the market
would bear. And I think he took that mentality into
the free agent market and said, why wouldn't I take it?
Forget about the money, how many dollars? Why would I
take a contract that structured in a worse way than

(01:10:36):
when I was franchised? And by the way, you know
who agreed to the franchise rules, the owners they agreed
to make them fully guaranteed. So why should a player
walk into a GM's office and say, hey, I want
a fully guaranteed contract and then allow the GM to say, well,
you know we don't do that. Well, you did it
with the franchise TA.

Speaker 2 (01:10:58):
One thing I noticed, and this is something that was
obviously recently in the news, is that in these and
I'm sure you noticed it too, being on the inside
of this, that when there is labor tension between players
and owners, the fans side with the owners, that it
drives me crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:11:15):
It drives me crazy.

Speaker 2 (01:11:16):
It does I'm sure drove you crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:11:20):
But we are recording this.

Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
Just a few days removed from when w NBA players
All Star weekend they came out with the shirts pay
us what you owe us, and people lost their shit
about it. And even though people tried to lean into
the excuse of like, well, the WNBA is not making
money and this and that you and I both know.

(01:11:45):
So you see it in the books, and everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:11:47):
Does their books differently. I tried to give people to explain.

Speaker 2 (01:11:50):
Is that most times do what they want to show
their operating at a loss.

Speaker 1 (01:11:56):
That's what they do.

Speaker 5 (01:11:57):
That's what they do yes, that's what they.

Speaker 1 (01:11:59):
Do, how to convince you every time we're losing the.

Speaker 5 (01:12:02):
Well at them. And I was in it for fourteen years.
I have yet to see an audited financial statement. They
never produce an audited financial statement. So yeah, look, I
think that I think that what the w NBA players
not only did now, but what they have done clearly
makes that how do they win the narrative?

Speaker 2 (01:12:24):
Are they gonna? I guess they even bother winning the
nar Okay, because you've been.

Speaker 5 (01:12:28):
On it doesn't matter. I mean we you know, when
we're negotiating a deal, man, there's there's one share that's empty,
the fan. I mean, I don't want to break anybody's heart,
but nobody in that room is like, hey man, what
does Bubba think?

Speaker 1 (01:12:40):
Now?

Speaker 5 (01:12:41):
Nobody, no one is spending that moment. And so I
think the narrative is only important in one respect. I
think it's important to make sure people understand what you're
doing and why you're doing it. But this idea that
fan support is going to mean something in a negotiation room.

(01:13:02):
I mean, don't overplay that hand, right, because we all
know one thing, at least when it comes to the NFL,
fans are gonna watch. They're just gonna watch. And you know,
I don't get into arguments with people at bars to
the extent that I used to. I used to pick
every fight because that it was funny. But I'm a lawyer.
It just kind of comes. You know, somebody will say

(01:13:23):
something crazy in a bar. You know, I just don't
think he's worth all that money. And you know, my
response back was.

Speaker 1 (01:13:30):
It doesn't matter.

Speaker 5 (01:13:30):
It doesn't matter. You play. You know, we all know
you can't. So okay, I mean, I might pay five
bucks to see if you can make it across the room,
but you know that's that's what the market will bear,
so it doesn't matter. I think. I think it's important
for the narrative so people understand why you're doing it
and why it's important. But you know, the proof is

(01:13:52):
always in the pudding, right and and the way that
the WNBA CBA is structured it it's that structure. At
least in my opinion, that structure doesn't jive with where
they are right now. It just doesn't. And I'm a
big fan of revenue share deals. I mean, we talk

(01:14:13):
a lot about NFL players and basketball players and hockey
players and baseball players, I look, nobody should cry a river, right,
I mean, for the most part, all of those players
are getting somewhere close to fifty cents on every dollar
they generate, which is when you think about that versus
everybody else working in America. If you're working at Amazon,
you're not getting fifty cents for every dollar you generate, right,

(01:14:35):
So you know, those deals are hard fought deals. I
think that that, you know, the future of the w
NBA now, especially as they approach the zenith, they need
a fair revenue share deal. And this idea that this
idea that you know, we're going to create kind of

(01:14:57):
something on the side and they're going to kind of
do this thing. Well, that's that needs to be over.
I mean, I was in I mean, I'm gonna have
a tough walking down the street in d C. But
you know, I went to the w NBA games and
in d C and there were more people there than
the Wizards game. I'm just making an observation, making an observation.

(01:15:20):
I'm just making an observation in trouble. But but yeah,
you know, and so you know, you you see a
you see a fever and and uh and a fact
that meant these people aren't showing up with like isolated
ticket sales. I mean, they're showing up with season ticket purchases.

(01:15:41):
And if I were, you know, anybody representing their union,
we would say, Okay, let's find out how much money
is coming in and let's see what our share is.
I mean, that's a fair question, and more power to them.
I mean I I I had the pleasure of working
with him in the past and with the US women's

(01:16:01):
national team and the w the NWSL. I can get
myself in further trouble, man it. The women on the
union side are serial killers, and I think that they
approach it with a level of righteous ruthlessness that every

(01:16:27):
union member has to approach it, and they understand the issues.
I'm sure you've seen it too. I mean it was
a couple of weeks ago. I turned in tuned in late,
saw the end of a w NBA game and then
you know, watch the postgame press conference and before anybody
would ask a question or get an answer about you know,

(01:16:47):
what the score, how the game went, and I saw
two women go off about the structure of their CBA
and how it's unfair and how they are united about
getting a better deal and I I mean, as a
union guy, I'm watching that like I'm nearly well en
up what because you know, it's it's that post game conference.

(01:17:10):
And let's just flip it around. How many times have
you seen any male athlete post game start off the
press conference with a CBA discussion?

Speaker 2 (01:17:22):
Well least in the modern day men male athletes have
the luxury of being treated a certain way. So when
you are always fighting for your dignity, always fighting for
your respect as the women.

Speaker 5 (01:17:34):
Are, and that's why it's different.

Speaker 1 (01:17:35):
That's why it feels because your back is.

Speaker 5 (01:17:37):
Always against the walls. What else can you do to
make enough money?

Speaker 1 (01:17:42):
As it is, you take away what I got.

Speaker 5 (01:17:44):
As my mother would say, I'm about to pull off
my shoe. You know, That's what it is, and I
think it it look it just necessarily is the way
that a labor union should think as opposed to you know,
I think things are pretty good. You know, how hard
are we going to fight for the stuff we want?

(01:18:06):
I mean, that's just a different frame. I mean they're
fighting for a I mean, up until recently, they were
just fighting for a liberal salary. And I dig it. Literally,
I texted Terry that night watching watching these two incredible
women talk about their CBA structure, and what I love

(01:18:27):
about it is, you know, as a reporter covering it
your captive, you're just.

Speaker 1 (01:18:33):
Yeah, I mean it's great.

Speaker 5 (01:18:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:18:36):
I have tried to explain to people, tell I'm blue
in the face, like what this is really about.

Speaker 1 (01:18:41):
But I think they'll reach a deal.

Speaker 2 (01:18:43):
I don't think there will be a lockout because there's
just too much a steak on both sides.

Speaker 1 (01:18:46):
So I think they'll be fine.

Speaker 5 (01:18:47):
I would hope, I would hope. I mean I do know.
I mean, they're not backing down.

Speaker 1 (01:18:54):
If the owners are thinking like, oh we they'll never
let up dealing with you do not know it.

Speaker 5 (01:19:02):
And I think the the you know, that ability to
demonstrate that before you get into the negotiation rooms. I
was always trying to explain to my guys. You know,
sometimes they think it's some sort of magic words that
you say at the negotiation table. Now you your deal
is inextricably tied to how much leverage before you walk

(01:19:24):
in the door. That's it. I mean, no one is
going to come up with something magical, you know, except
maybe the secret insurance possible, but nobody for the most
part is going to come.

Speaker 1 (01:19:34):
Everybody to read the book.

Speaker 2 (01:19:35):
You'll find out about the secret of the policy, which
is one of the great big joker moments of thank.

Speaker 1 (01:19:42):
You in NFL history.

Speaker 2 (01:19:43):
Which leads me to sort of my next to last
question here, and that is, when you look back on
your fourteen years with the NFLPA, what what.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
Sense does it give you?

Speaker 5 (01:19:58):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:19:58):
How do you feel about you? Do you feel accomplished?
How do you feel about what you the work you
were able to do.

Speaker 5 (01:20:04):
I'm really proud of the work we did. It was,
without a doubt, the hardest thing I've ever done. I
never thought it was going to be that hard. I
really didn't it. It personally pushed me to a place where,
you know, at times, it's a place where I wish

(01:20:25):
I hadn't gone. But it it taxed me in a
way that I never thought I would be. I learned
a lot about myself. It forces you, At least for me,
it forced me to come to grips with this idea
of of what does it all mean, you know, and

(01:20:47):
how does it all fit? And and I'm thankful that
I got there. You know that that it just wasn't
a you know, one more job or one more you know,
one more stop, you know, along the way I look
at I look at our institutions, and one that I
revere the most is the press because it is the

(01:21:09):
fourth estate. And I think we find ourselves when things
aren't terrible, that perhaps we don't think how precarious things
like free speech and a free press are, And then
when things get tough and you see people literally going

(01:21:33):
out of their way to try to destroy something like
newspapers and journalists and targeting journalist, you realize, oh, well,
wait a minute, this is this is where this whole
thing fits. I'm glad that after the fourteen years, I
understand where unions fit, and where personal responsibility fit, and

(01:21:56):
where our understanding of our own unique journeys, whether you're
you're an immigrant or whether you you know, fled to
Jim Crow South, where it all fits. Because I think
that if the converse to that is, if you allow
yourself to simply be in a world where you're just

(01:22:17):
constantly being entertained by it, it's not meaningful. So I'm
really proud of what we did. I'm really proud of
the people I work with. I have, you know, I
have ten thousand regrets, you know, there's all sorts of
things I wish I would have done differently, but there's
very few things that I would change.

Speaker 1 (01:22:40):
All right.

Speaker 2 (01:22:41):
Now this is where we make some headlines, all right,
all right? So all right, end every podcast with what
I call the messy question.

Speaker 7 (01:22:48):
But in your case, yeah, because all of it's messy
because you're d Smith and the wealth of things that
you dropped in your in your book Turf Fors, which
comes out when August fifth, August Fish.

Speaker 5 (01:23:01):
And I got to do the audiobook.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
Oh, we'll talk about that.

Speaker 5 (01:23:06):
It is.

Speaker 1 (01:23:09):
I can relate. Just know that, all right. So I
have what I would call for you a messy question. Ye,
Lightning Rod sneaky is NFL owner? I know they all
are to some degree. Jerry Jerry cheapest NFL owner.

Speaker 5 (01:23:29):
Oh my god, Mike Brown not not even clothes, I like,
I don't even know. By the way, no one's gonna
be surprised by that, right, no one. The guy gave
me a stack of Hard Knocks tapes on vhs.

Speaker 1 (01:23:47):
Wait what years this?

Speaker 5 (01:23:51):
I think it was twenty ta.

Speaker 1 (01:23:53):
I'm not kidding.

Speaker 5 (01:23:54):
I'm not kidding. Once again, didn't even make the book. Yeah,
why I met with him and it was over, and
then he had the stack of VHS tests on his dad.
He goes, hey, d this is my gift to you, right, yeah, okay, man,
that might be worse than Upty.

Speaker 1 (01:24:15):
Like the words of that. Which owner would you guess
probably cheats the most in golf?

Speaker 5 (01:24:23):
Oh hm hmm, that'd be a good question. I'm gonna
have to go that. I think. Would you have to
get with Tepper? I mean, anybody who would throw a
drink on his own fan, right, I mean it's like
it's your own stadium, the Carolina Panthers, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:24:39):
Why why the owner you most like to get drunk with?

Speaker 5 (01:24:48):
Once again? Uh, that's gonna be a tie between Robert
and Robert Kraft and and Jerry Johnson.

Speaker 1 (01:24:54):
I would have guess Jerry would have been number one because.

Speaker 5 (01:24:56):
Jerry is that the stories a are off the Chaine.

Speaker 1 (01:25:01):
Yeah, I said, Robert Crab so gentlemanly kind of.

Speaker 5 (01:25:05):
And I guess that's why Robert is just a pure gentleman.

Speaker 1 (01:25:10):
And about extensive.

Speaker 5 (01:25:15):
The fun drinking with him would be. It kind of
strips away a little bit of the the formalism. And
one thing I learned from him is he's one of
the few owners that actually thinks large about the league,
and and that was I wouldn't have seen that.

Speaker 1 (01:25:34):
And finally, the owner you trust to actually do the right.

Speaker 5 (01:25:38):
Thing, Robert, I think, I think, I think that that
very few of them have gone through such a long
run at at at the NFL where they have come

(01:26:01):
away with an understanding of first, we're all kind of
blessed to be in this ecosystem, right, And and I
think he was one of the few people that understands
that even though the thing has just been a juggernaut,
that to pretend that this thing is can't be toppled,

(01:26:24):
that it can't be eroded from within, that there could
be a problem that destabilizes the business model. All that's folly.
And I think that's right. And I think he's probably
one of the few that actually gives that a certain
amount of thought, that we're gonna have our dust ups,
but this thing might be more precarious than than than

(01:26:47):
we think, and we all have to exercise really good judgment.
He's probably you know, he's probably it on that on
that on that front. But you know, between that and
a funny story with Jerry Man, nobody makes you laugh
like like that guy.

Speaker 2 (01:27:04):
So the owner most likely to go out like Dan Snyder,
I kid, I kid, I mean, well, you don't answer.

Speaker 1 (01:27:15):
That was not ask you a question. I was just
a joke. I want to thank you so much.

Speaker 5 (01:27:19):
I want to thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:27:20):
No, this is this is a great conversation. Highly encourage
everybody to read her fors.

Speaker 2 (01:27:25):
It is fascinating on so many levels, and you know,
it helped me understand, especially as somebody in the media
who often had to talk about these situations.

Speaker 1 (01:27:36):
One you really start to understand how much you don't know.

Speaker 2 (01:27:39):
And in particular, taking us through, taking readers through what
happened with the flake Gate, it makes me understand the
Brady New England split so much differently than I did
at the time it happened. Some stuffing you kind of knew,
but then you're you know the fact that you and Brady,
I mean y'all you know, yeah, I was like stark, Danny,

(01:28:07):
I mean really writing and so well and it really
a different context about how.

Speaker 1 (01:28:13):
And why that happened.

Speaker 5 (01:28:15):
There's always a backstory, and that was.

Speaker 1 (01:28:17):
A heck of a one.

Speaker 2 (01:28:18):
So I encourage everybody to read it. Turf Wars great read,
quick read. So thank you again.

Speaker 1 (01:28:24):
Luck with the book.

Speaker 5 (01:28:24):
Thank you very much. And look, I gotta say this,
you were always my hero. I'm well, look you, I
met you back with you and Michael Smith one hundred
years ago. Very few reporters gave me the level of hey,

(01:28:46):
let's just listen to what this guy's going to say,
and and you and a and of others did and
I'll never forget it.

Speaker 1 (01:28:54):
Appreciate that. Thank you. One more segment to go coming
up next, the Final Spin.

Speaker 2 (01:29:11):
Time for the Final Spin. The topic in game interviews
with coaches the spin. They give viewers great insight and
insider access.

Speaker 1 (01:29:21):
The truth.

Speaker 2 (01:29:22):
These interviews suck and the networks need to stop doing them.
The latest example Minnesota Leafs coach Cheryl Reeves's recent interview
that took place during the Lynx's game with the New York.

Speaker 5 (01:29:34):
Coach.

Speaker 3 (01:29:35):
How would you describe the chemistry and connection between Courtney
Williams and the FISA Collier?

Speaker 5 (01:29:40):
It's great.

Speaker 7 (01:29:43):
Courtney Williams didn't have didn't find the bottom of the bucket,
but had a great floor game in that first half
with the eight assists.

Speaker 5 (01:29:49):
What did you like that you saw from her? Coach
stater to be addressive? All right, thank you Cheryl.

Speaker 1 (01:29:55):
Thank you, Cheryl, thank you for giving that interview.

Speaker 2 (01:29:58):
The Greg Popovich treatment resumed to speak for many people,
but I think I can speak for all the fans
when I say interviewing coaches as the game is being
played serve zero purpose, give you zero insight, and it's
an annoying distraction from the only.

Speaker 1 (01:30:14):
Thing that matters the actual game.

Speaker 2 (01:30:16):
Now, it's one thing to interview coaches at halftime or
even before a quarter begins, because the coaches are usually
composed enough to give you a little something. These endgame
interviews is very much giving the network producers trying to
prove how smart they are at the expense of serving
their audience. The coaches are totally distracted, often can't even

(01:30:37):
hear the question because they're so distracted by the game
going on, and the entire interaction feels awkward and forced.
So please cut the shit, ESPN. This concludes another episode.
As Politics. You could reach me across all social media
platforms or via email. I'm Jamelle Hill across all of
social media Twitter, Instagram, fan based, Blue Sky, and threads.
Please use the hashtags politics. You also have the option

(01:31:00):
of emailing me as Politics twenty twenty four at gmail
dot com.

Speaker 1 (01:31:04):
You can also video on me a question, but please
make sure it's thirty seconds or less.

Speaker 2 (01:31:09):
Don't forget to follow and subscribe to Politics on iHeart
and follows Politics Pod on Instagram and TikTok. Politics is
spelled s p O l I t I c S.
A new episode is Politics drops every Thursday on iHeart
Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. This is politics
where sports and politics don't just mix, They matter.

Speaker 1 (01:31:34):
Politics is the production of iHeart Podcasts and.

Speaker 2 (01:31:37):
The Unbothered Network. I'm your host Jamail Hill. Executive producer
is Taylor Chakoige. Lucas Hymen is head of audio and
executive producer. Original music for Spolitics provided by Kyle Visz
from wiz fx

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Ep 41: The Politics of Turf Wars - Featuring DeMaurice Smith

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep 41: The Politics of Turf Wars - Featuring DeMaurice Smith