Matthew Stafford and the Rams are Super Bowl champions. But before they even got to the big game, there were whispers and rumors about the legendary trip to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, that ended up with Stafford being traded from Detroit to L.A. Sports Illustrated senior writer Greg Bishop pulls back the curtain and explains how a joint vacation and the fate of an unusual L.A. rainstorm changed the Rams’ fortunes and altered the course of NFL history.
Related: How the Rams Got Away, Found One Another, Then Found a Way by Greg Bishop and Conor Orr
Pop culture and sports collide when actor-comedian Ben Schwartz and SI senior writer Chris Herring join us to discuss Chris’s new book, Blood in the Garden, our shared love of the ’90s NBA and the state of the Knicks franchise.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
On this episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly, pop culture and
sports collide when actor and comedian Ben Schwartz and Sports
Illustrated Senior writer Chris Herring joined us to discuss Chris's
new book, Blood in the Garden are shared love of
the nineties n b A and the state of the
current New York Next and later, Ben Simmons and James
Harden were part of a blockbuster trade during last week's deadline.
(00:26):
But how will Simmons look on the nets and will
Harden finally make the Sixers a championship contender. I'm joined
by my friends and former co workers Haleyo Shaughnessy of
The Spinster's Podcast and Dan Divine of The Ringer for
a reunion deep dive. But first, Matthew Stafford and the
Los Angeles Rams are Super Bowl champions. But before they
(00:47):
even got to the big Game, there were whispers and
rumors about the legendary trip to Cabo that ended up
with Stafford being traded from Detroit to l A. Sports
Illustrated Senior writer Greg Bishop pulls back the curtain and
explains how a joint vacation, an unusual l a rainstorm,
and fate changed the Rams fortunes and altered the course
(01:08):
of NFL history. It's February sixteen. I'm your host, John
Gonzalez from Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. This is
Sports Illustrated Weekly. PS donn it tuxdown? With this touchdown
(01:33):
to Cooper Cup, Rams quarterback Matthew Stafford changed the narrative
about his career for good. After failing to win a
playoff game in twelve seasons with Detroit, Stafford won a
championship in his first season with the Rams, cementing his
legacy in a pressure situation, I don't know if I
have ever seen anybody be better than Matthew Stafford and
(01:55):
Cooper Cup. A lot of the Rams were looking for
the same vindication, Aaron Donald, Odell Beckham Jr. Eric Weddle,
Andrew Whitworth, and of course head coach Sean McVeigh. But
the Rams were built to win the Super Bowl and
they have sealed the deal. But before any of them
could call themselves world champs, including an especially Stafford and
(02:19):
unlikely and now legendary, set of circumstances had to unfold.
Do you know what you're gonna do? You're gonna send
the tourism industry in Cabo off the chain, how about that?
I mean, nobody believes that story is true. What happened
one year ago between Matthew Stafford and the Rams has
(02:41):
become the stuff of rumor and intrigue. So I kind
of linked the two of them up while they were
in Cambo the stuff to be traded, and I'd love
to talk to him. It's been whispered about in NFL
circles ever since. It was also coincided with him being
granted permission to seek a trade. It's starting to feel
really are a trip to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico that
(03:03):
would change the fortunes of the Rams in wholly unexpected ways.
It was just something that I didn't think it was
gonna ever happen, And you know an hour here. It's
a story that hasn't been told until now. It's really
crazy and it was really special. It's not even believable,
but it's the truth. As somebody who lives in l A,
(03:27):
I can tell you, it never rains in l A
except for what it does. Here's Melissa Whitworth, Rams tackle
Andrew Whitworth's wife the season was over, and Sean's fiance
Veronica called me and said, hey, listen, it's supposed to
rain all week here. You only get out of here.
I was like, ah, that sounds great. So within forty
(03:49):
eight hours decided we were rolling out. Melissa's husband, Andrew,
is the Rams left tackle. He's the oldest position player
left in the National Football League, and because he's older
than Sean McVeigh, they've been friends since Andrew came over.
In This is Greg Bishop, senior writer for s I
who wrote SI Super Bowl cover story from Los Angeles
along with Connor Orr. He spent time with the Ellie
(04:12):
Rams uncovering a piece of recent NFL lore. They decided
they're gonna go to Cabo this. It wasn't like to
go out and recruit, you know, a player who might
be there. It was simply like, let's go find a
beach where we can sit around and do nothing for
a few days. We knew we wanted to get away.
We travel with the White Worst Three frequently and so
(04:32):
that's a place that we had been before. This is
Sean McVeigh. It's a good place to kind of online
as the season ends. I love that part of the story.
I love that the mcveigh's and the white worst for like,
let's just get out of here, Let's go and put
our feet in the sand and try to decompress a
little bit. What is that dynamic like with that group?
(04:54):
It sounds like they spend a lot of time together. Yeah,
I think Andrew and Sean would make fun of me
using Netflix Buddy Show. I mean, you gotta picture their
images just to start with. You know, Andrew is six six,
he's over three hundred pounds, he's big bald. Sean calls
him the swaggiest offensive lineman in the NFL. He's like
a great dancer. He wears Jordan's very stylish. And then
(05:18):
his coach is smaller, much more type A. His hair
is indicative of his personality. It's perfect, it's always in
the right place, and him and Andrew a sort of
a really cool contrast and styles. What I think is
even more interesting in that regard is that they've sort
of evolved together. You know, Andrew was a guy who
played it for the Bengals for eleven seasons. He'd been
(05:40):
in the playoffs six times and never won a playoff game.
And Sean was a guy who was really tightly wound.
And Andrews showed him how to relax a little, to
not take himself as seriously, to evolve into a little
bit more fuller of a person. It sets the stage
nicely for Kabo because it's a very unique relationship between
player and coach. So the what Worths and the mcveigh's
(06:01):
go to Kabba, and as it turns out, there not
alone because half of the NFL was on vacation there.
Greg tell us about Kaba. It is a beautiful town
right on the ocean. The geography around it is very striking.
The w wordst like to go there. It's a place
they generally take vacations to. And like you said, half
the NFL was there. You're talking Sean Paid and Drew Brees,
(06:23):
Matt Naggy. I mean there was a ton of people.
And Matt Stafford actually told you they were planning a
vacation to go to the Bahamas at the same time,
but a big storm had come through so their plans
completely changed. We're thing, we're going to the Bahamas, and
then it kind of just come back from our hurricane.
Called the people wh knew there and they said, only
one of our restaurants are open. You know, it's probably
(06:43):
not worth coming. You should go to the place of
my Dominican look it up on my house. Beautiful. But
it's four and a half five hours from Detroit. I'm
sitting there going, if we're gonna go four and a a
half five hours, might as well just go somewhere we
know that we're gonna like, let's just go to Cambo.
They decided on Cabo serendipitously and happened to arrive at
exactly the same time. So we've talked about the coach,
(07:08):
we've talked about the quarterback, but as usual, it's left
to the lineman to do the actual heavy lifting. So
tell us who Clint Bowling is and what was his
role in this story. You're right, lineman. Always know that
some of my favorite soviceis And what happened with Bowling
like was really interesting because he made the connection himself.
He knew that the Wit Worst often vacation in Cabo,
(07:29):
So I know Wit goes there in the off season,
and I know I think he was there with Sean
just kind of right after their season was unwinding. And
he played college football with Matthew Stafford at Georgia. So
he figures out that Matthew Stafford is in Cabo and
on vacation with his family, and he figures out by
texting Whitworth that Andrews also there. Yeah, so Clint sends
(07:52):
me his number. It's basically just like he'll be down there.
And then, um, one of those kind of sharing with Sean,
that I was gonna play golf with him. Uh. It
was like, dude, like he's like up to be traded
and I'd love to talk to him because I heard
he was like allowed to seek his own trade or whatever.
This moment is imprinted in Sean mcveigh's mind. You know,
(08:13):
we were watching the NFC Championship game. I can remember
how by the pool and uh, when Whitward found out
that Stafford and his family were going to be staying
in the same area and was also coincided with him
being granted permission to seek a trade, and so that
was something that we thought was pretty unique for sure.
Bowling sends him a text message says they're yelling Cabo.
(08:34):
Andrew says yes. He says, Matthew Stafford wants to play
golf with you. And Andrew says, give him my number.
That that's NFL history and one text exchange right there
and kind of passed along that Andrew I got a
friend in Cabo, he ends up in Cabo. I liked
them up to just go out and play some golf.
The wake Bowling knows Whitworth is that he was a
(08:55):
long time Bengal. In fact, not only were they teammates,
but they were the left side of Incinnati's offensive line
for multiple seasons. So the irony is not lost on
Clint now that ultimately that text message exchange and sending
Whitworths number to Stafford, you know, could have changed the
trajectory of Bengal's history. I spent eight years in Cincinnati's
(09:16):
to seeing them in the Super Bowl. I'm a little conflicted,
but I definitely think about, you know, let's shoot, what
if Matthew ends up in Baker's Bay, or you know,
if I didn't link them up, if it all ends
up happening kind of thing, right, and you know, if
they win, or you're gonna be like, man, maybe should
have never said that number, you know, Yeah, you know,
I like I needed to be I need to get
(09:36):
my finders that it's such an awesome connection. And again
they're like, so much of this is left to luck.
So matt Stafford goes out plays golf with Andrew Witworth.
As you mentioned, what Worth had played his first eleven
season with the Bengals. They never want a playoff game,
had gone thirty one years before this season without winning
a playoff game. And then, of course Stafford well chronicled
issues with the Lions forever and ever just not playing well.
(09:59):
They never want to playoff game either, So they go
out on the golf course. How does what Worth pitch
the rams to Stafford? You know, this is a private
members only course. You can see the Sea of Cortez
on one side the deserts on the other. So we
Worth did something that I think was really brilliant on
the golf course. I don't like to go play like
casual golf. There's always gonna be some time we're playing
(10:20):
for something, or we're playing for bragging rights or some
kind of competition. But I'm like, you know what, like
I want to get to know Matthew and just talk.
And so that's what we did. We just kind of
split around talking and get to know one another. He
can tell that Matthew is distracted. His agent keeps calling.
He seems kind of burdened by the whole thing, the
idea of picking up and like Andrew and Melissa, he
(10:41):
has four children with Kelly Stafford, and you know, moving
your whole family, and you've been in this routine even
if it hasn't netted the results you want for your
whole life. And so Andrew decides to speak from his
own experience. He says to Matthew, I'm not going to
try to sell you on coming to l A, but
I am going to talk about my situation. He lays
out the similarities. He says, Okay, this is why I
(11:04):
knew it was time to leave. You know, I knew
I was gonna have to take my final shots at
a ring elsewhere. He just wasn't really sure what to do.
And Andrew said, listen, guy, this is Melissa Whitworth again.
I want you to think on this because it's the
rest of your life at your legacy first and foremost.
Having been through this myself, I know all the emotions
(11:26):
with it. I want you guys be happy. Whatever's best
and whatever makes you feel good about where you're going
is the number one thing. And when I talked to
Matthew Stafford this week, he said he actually that was
the thing he appreciated most, both the lines understanding and
whitworth and what he told them. I'm in a lot,
you know. I have a lot of respect for what
(11:46):
he's done in this league and who he is as
a person, and he was definitely eye leaned on. So
you mentioned that Matt Stafford there on the course, he's distracted.
He's on his phone the whole time. I'm he's trying
to figure out if he wants to go to the rams. Meanwhile,
Sean McVeigh is supposed to be relaxing in paradise. He's
doing the same thing as you write in your story.
(12:08):
He seems agitated, he's withdrawn, he's on his phone constantly.
They're all in paradise, They're all supposed to be having
a good time, but what's going on with McVeigh behind
the scenes. I love this part because it's just so Sean.
You know, when I profiled them in seventeen, I wrote
a lot about work life balance, which to him is
sort of a goal that he would like to have
but realizes he had. They will never have it. You know,
(12:31):
they're all in paradise. The wit Words have four kids,
their paddle boarding, they're hanging out of the pool. They
got all those good drinks with the sugar and the
umbrellas and guests who's nowhere to be found, you know,
Sean McVeigh. And essentially they thought he was a little
bit grumpy, a little bit moody, and just definitely not
in vacation mode. But what he was really doing was
(12:52):
calling RAMS executives who had been very late into the
Matthew Stafford derby. They were the last team that was
seriously contending for him that came in. Could they pull
off another heist? And ultimately they decided very quickly that yes,
that he would be the difference maker and that they
would push as hard as possible while they all happened
(13:12):
to be in Cabo to go get him. So in
order to get him to Los Angeles, RAMS general manager
Less Sneed needs to spring into action. And I think
everybody who knows anything about less Sneed now knows he
is a man of action. He is willing to play
for the now at the expense of the future. So
what happens as this whole thing gets ramped up and
(13:33):
less It's brought into the process and he decides, yeah,
Matt Stafford's our guy. Yeah, well, his whole team went
to work on it instantly, and like strongly. I think
it's interesting this season that people say that Rams went
all in, like he's he's always been all in. This
is a guy who thinks that draft picks are overvalued.
You know. That's essentially where the Rams differentiate themselves from
(13:54):
other teams. They believe that they're less guaranteed than you think,
and that if you can trade a couple of six
to get a player who's established in some ways, you
have a competitive advantage. You know that that sort of
process has been picked apart over the years. Some people
have mocked it. Uh, some people have memed it. But
I think you know, what Less is looking for, based
(14:14):
on my conversations with him over the years, is essentially
a chance every year, you know, and so what what
gives you that best chance? If it's adding Matthew Stafford.
Great set the scene for us. It's a year ago.
It's January thirty there in Cabo. The Staffords and the
what Worst are at a restaurant in Cabo, and they
(14:35):
go and they have some drinks, and then they have
another rand and then they go to have dinner, and
then finally Sean McVeigh gets to walk in and break
the news. One person said, it was like where's Waldo?
Like everyone's just like, where the heck is Sean McVeigh,
What is he doing? And they learned enough drinks and
they're just hanging out because they have no idea really
where everything is at. You know, they know the Rams
(14:55):
are interested, obviously, they know that their negotiations that are ongoing.
But there were teams like Washington and Carolina that had
made significantly better offers, and there were rumors that if
Stafford went to a team that wasn't gonna contend, that
he planned to retire, rumors that people who close to
him have told me aren't true. But it also kind
of sets the background. So all of a sudden there
(15:16):
comes Mr Perfect hair spiked right in the front, just
like always, and he walks into the restaurant and at
that point, Sean McVeigh looks at the table, very much
dramatic effect, little pause, and he gestures in Matthew Stafford
and he says, guys, this is your new quarterback. So Greg,
(15:39):
everybody's having a good time, but what worth and Stafford
and McVeigh decided to make a phone call a FaceTime actually,
and they FaceTime Cooper Coup and they're all excited about everything.
It's the night of Stafford landing with the Rams. January
tell us about that FaceTime and what happens almost exactly
a year later. It was pretty amazing. So there were
(16:01):
a lot of face times, Like these guys called Aaron Donald,
they called the Rams executives. They each called like people
in their respective circles. But the one that stood out
to me, I believe that Sean started the call with like, Coop,
we got a quarterback. I mean, I actually have a
picture of the three of us FaceTime and Cooper top
right after it happened, and we're on the phone with
(16:24):
Cooper and so I took a picture of us. The
FaceTime calling in and of itself isn't incredibly noteworthy. But
what is noteworthy is that, exactly one year later, almost
to the exact time, I believe it was about a
thirty minute time difference, those guys won the NFC Championship
and beat the forty niners. And you know, they took
another picture of the TV screen and it's everyone that
(16:47):
was there in a circle, hugging in triumph. And from
one January to the next to me is the story
of the ram Super Bowl, from like knowing you gotta
do something, has to doing it, to everything that happened afterwards,
and from all those things combining for the win. I
do a lot of scriptwriting, but I don't think I
(17:09):
could write a script that good. It's been an unbelievable journey.
That's my family and I have been on and it's
been an amazing twelve months. But we're win for sure.
And now they've won the super Bowl, their super Bowl champions.
That's the perfect ending to their script. It's the Hollywood
ending that they always wanted and they got it. Greg Bishop,
excellent work by you. Thank you for this. Thank you friend.
(17:33):
You can read Greg bishops super Bowl cover story, which
he co authored with Connor Or, about the Cabo trip
and so much more on SI dot com. Well linked
to it in our show Notes. After a break, Actor
and comedian Ben Schwartz and SI senior writer Chris Herring
joined us to discuss all things Nicks and nostalgia. S
(17:58):
I Senior writer Chris Harry is the author of the
New York Times best selling book Blotted in the Garden,
The Flagrant History of the New York Knicks. It's a
terrific book that perfectly captures those teams and the nineties
NBA nostalgia that I love. But as a Sixers fan
who definitely did not romanticize those nixt teams, I wanted
to have a conversation with Chris and someone who actually
(18:20):
held those pat Riley and Patrick Ewing teams near and
dear to his heart. And for that we brought on
a special guest who is a lifelong die hard Knicks
fan who was kind enough to join us. We just
what Georges and we said, Picks be a New York.
Were on the New York Knicks. Ain't go New York,
(18:42):
New Ylet Goin' go go New Ylet go go. You
can watch him on the new Apple Plus series The
After Party, and the second season of Space Force is forthcoming,
and you can carry him as the star in Sonic
to Ben Schwartz is here, gentlemen, Welcome to Sports Illustrated Weekly.
(19:05):
Hi everybody, what an exciting time. We're thrilled to have you.
I think when I think about those Knicks and that era,
I'm reminded of like the physicality and the ISOs and
backing people down and no easy layups and hard fouls,
and Chris, you wrote the literal book on it, so
that Air really embodied all of that, right, that's putting
it mildly. Uh. The Knicks did not have the offensive
talent that the Lakers did when pat Riley had been there.
(19:27):
They had Patrick Ewing and that was pretty much it
as far as the offensive talent they had. Like I said,
Mark Jackson, would dare you? Chris, how dare you? My goodness,
you wrote a book about this, and you're saying they're
soft outside of Patrick, not that they're soft, but well,
I mean soft offensively if you want to put it
that way. They did not have much to go to
offensively aside from Mark Jackson. But even that, they were
(19:49):
not a real up tembo team and pat Riley couldn't
utilize that. So he said, you know what, what do
I have at my disposal? Here had a bunch of
big bodies. He was big on messaging, and he told
them literally in first practice that he wanted them to
hack and to confuse officials enough to where they, you know,
they couldn't keep calling files after the first few minutes
of games, and that he basically wanted them to have
(20:09):
a nastiness and a toughness to them that nobody else
in the league had. Looking back now and even then,
Ben pat Riley coached this team, the Lakers show time,
run and gone and have fun. Like he coached a
bunch of guys who were like, yeah, we're not gonna
beat Michael Jordan's, so let's beat Michael Jordan's. It was incredible.
I mean, it's the most exciting. But by the way,
also I think it's a it's very to bring into
(20:32):
comedy a little bit. I think that everybody's version of
like their SNL cast is their favorite SNL cast, Like
my like you know, like, oh yeah, my favorite version
of cast was this. So like, when you're growing up,
you have such a nostalgia for the team that you
grew up rooting for falling in love with basketball. So
for me because I was born in eight one, I
mean the Nicks, especially when they're going on their big
playoff runs at the beginning in the early nineties, then
(20:53):
with Camby at the end of the nineties, it's all
I love basketball so much, but as a kid, it's everything,
Like it's everything you care about, Like when they lose
to the Houston Rockets. I'm outside being very emotional shooting
baskets by myself, and you know all those things you're
pretending to be when you're out there. Oh my god,
you don't want to know. By the way, I picked
number twenty because so when I was in high school
(21:14):
and was playing basketball on the team, I wasn't getting
utilized very much. And so I my number was number
twenty because Rolando Blackman, I thought was amazing on the
Knicks when he got traded over and again, the roll,
the round, the river, the glass he's got do you
remember a lot of that? And he was, wasn't he He
He must have been twenty on the Knicks. He was
twenty two, I think he was. He was. He was funny.
(21:37):
So I love the way he shot, and I loved
I thought he was great, and he never got enough
run in my head, so I made I made that
my number. And then when I got older, I could
just when people didn't understand the reference, I could just
point to Alan Houston, who was the greatest, you know,
one of the greatest nick shoot. I'm warning you already, man,
I'm just warning you spoiler alert. I won't give it away,
(21:57):
but there's some rough stuff in there out Rolando as
it relates to the Houston series. Really, I'm just preparing
you for it. I'm just getting you ready for it.
I'm so glad that you brought this up because the
ninety four finals that you just mentioned, John Starks did
not play great in Game seven Rolando black Man. A
lot of people thought they should have gone to him. Ben.
(22:17):
What do you remember about that series and what kind
of residual nightmares do you still have from it? I
feel like it's so unfair to keep because John Starks,
if you're a Knicks fan, he's like your guy. You
can have your Hubert Davis's and your Greg Anthony's and
all that stuff, and it's so exciting to see them
get run and play and stuff like that. Which I
love watching shooters because my game was anytime I went
in the paint, I would get my ass kicked because
(22:38):
I'm just like all bones and Jewish Maza. So I
just learned how to get a mid range game and
like a step in front of the NBA three point line,
which is still a college three back then. So it's
like very exciting. But I remember John Starks is like
the hero of all heroes soon from a whole water starts. Yes, stars,
(23:02):
so star Tomablaska falls for his background of not coming
from like a d one school and stuff like that.
But first of all, the lefty dunk changes everything. Second
of all, like he just tries so hard and he's
that the epitome of that. But I feel like every
time we bring him up now said he had a
(23:23):
terrible three point shooting percentage in the finals, I feel
like we we uh and we're not talking enough about
those local New York commercials where he's trying to raise
money for high school kids. Yeah. I mean, look, John
Starks had a great career and I hated watching him
because he always throttled the Sixers. But now when we
think about the reason why the NIXT lost the finals,
(23:45):
a lot of people blame John Starks. So, Chris, what
did you uncover when you were reporting that for your book?
So now I guess we're getting We're getting all the
way into the spoiler spoiler John Starks, John John Starks.
John Starks is really the reason they even have a
chance to win this series. Youing is really just not
up to the task of scoring on a Lajah one,
(24:07):
And so Starks kind of becomes their number one option
because of it. He has a rough Game one, maybe
because his great uncle died right before the series. He
was supposed to have thirty family members and the audience
for Game one. His great uncle passes away. It's kind
of like the closest thing to father figure he has.
And so he shoots three or eighteen in game one.
But then he rebounds games two to six and he's fantastic.
(24:29):
He had sixteen points in the fourth quarter of Game
six and he makes six shots in a row leading
up to the last play of Game six. The Knicks
were down by two on the last play of the game,
so Starks looks like he has a wide open three.
If this shot goes down, they win a title. The
Kimo Lage one gets maybe a fingernail on the shot start,
(24:57):
so the Nick's lose Game six. What happens next, Starks
ends up basically developing a three night insomnia because he
can't get the play out of his head. And he
goes into game seven and he's a mess basically because
he hasn't been able to sleep and the issue that
came up two and a half weeks before the finals.
They win Game seven against the Pacers in an emotional fashion.
No player on that roster, that Nicks roster would ever
(25:19):
won a championship. I don't even think anyone had ever
been to the finals. Even Rolando steps up and asks,
can we bring our wives to Houston? Because this is
a huge crowning achievement for us, and Pat Riley says no,
So he asks again, I'm not understanding Pat, like, you
really aren't gonna let us bring our wives? Why not?
And Pat just against says no, and he's kind of
(25:40):
offended and angry that Rolando would even ask a second
time in front of the whole team like that, because
Pat was rarely challenged and that way. So then you
fast forward to the finals moment Rolando hasn't gotten into
the finals at all. The Rockets are petrified Rolando Blackman,
because Rolando played for the Mavericks, had killed the Rockets
throughout his career, and Rolando never got in. Riley essentially
(26:02):
wrote letters to him, handwritten letters to him and the
years after, saying that it was the biggest mistake of
his career to not put And now Bett knows the
backstory behind his guy. So that's been completely spoiled for you. Yeah,
so now what am I gonna do? Just throw out
the book, Chris? Is there anything else in there? There's
a lot of other stuff in there. You know you
mentioned Youing and like that team and the the opportunity
(26:24):
that was miss because I think about the Iverson era
where I go, oh, man, I can't believe they didn't
get one championship out of it, Like Ewing was fantastic
and yet no championships. You're sor right, It's almost like, uh,
And you're watching him get older, you know, before he
was traded to Orlando and stuff, and like, we gotta
grab one. We just gotta grab one before this thing ends,
because he deserves it. He was so good for us.
I have, uh. I like sneakers a lot. I used
(26:45):
to work at the athletes Foot in Eastchester, so I
have these Jordan threes that are Nick's colorway, and I
thought it was amazing and I wear them all the time.
And then I put down the tongue. There here in
this hotel room, somewhere, I put down the tongue and
it's the date that Jordan went bananas on the Knicks.
It's celebrating the name that Jordan crushed the Knicks, and
I wear these sneakers all the time, not knowing that
(27:06):
it's like a celebration of us getting our asses kicked,
which I thought was very, very funny. The Jay's the
shoes are fantastic, but like you're walking around rocking these
things as a constant reminder of your childhood missed opportunities.
Never bought anything Jordan. I mean it's to expensive anyway,
but never bought anything Jordan when I was a kid.
Um never had Jordan's until I was grown. I mean,
(27:28):
maybe you know, seven years ago because as a Knicks fan,
you hate you hate the ball so much, and my
brain isn't smart enough and advance enough as a kid
to be like, oh, look at what we get to
watch right now. It's more just like every year they
beat us, every single year they beat us. And then
that's why it was like a little bit more fun
to watch Indiana series because Reggie would kill us every
(27:48):
now and then, but we would get them every now
and then too. Yeah, this is a perfect time to
transition from Reggie Miller killing the Knicks to today when
now Trey Young is killing the next Because I'm wondering
how you guys feel about these next. At the beginning
of the season, there was bing bong and everybody was excited,
and people are hyped about Julius Randall and everyon Fournier
and Kemba Walker, and now none of that excitement exists.
(28:09):
So what happened? I don't get the Kemba stuff at all,
and I think it's just because I haven't been reading
up on and enough. He's still skilled offensively, but I
think it takes like his tank empties a lot faster. Now.
It's very clear Fournier is like an inconsistent guy for
them that can go off for forty five when he's
playing Boston, but it's not gonna be there every night.
I think a big part of his Julius not having
(28:30):
the same space like he played a lot of last
season without a true true center. Mitch was out for
most of the year. Now he's there, and now he's
got like a big man that's kind of clogging a
lot of the paint in a way that wasn't happening before.
Where they had all those shooters last year. Everybody shot
like from three last year, and now you know Julius
isn't doing that, and r j has done better lately,
(28:52):
but has had you know, hot and cold moments as well,
and not having Rose has been huge for them. But
I just think you can't really overstate how important that's
been for them. Oh it was so fun to watch
Derrick Rose again. Do you know? It's crazy. As frustrated
as you may get every now and then, I find
myself so excited still and so because there's always every
game there's a shot, I think, and in previous Nick
(29:13):
teams that was never the case, and it's like and
you just you know, you go through it. And all
my friends were Lakers fans and make fun of me,
and I hated it, and now we have the same
record as them, and it makes me so happy. All right.
So the Lakers are obviously a storied franchise, but the
Buses are legendary owners, and I just feel like Nix's owner,
James Dolan, is more notorious than legendary. Can they win
(29:34):
a championship with James Dolan? I think you could. I
just think the real kind of common denominator other than
Dolan is that they haven't had a superstar since you
like a legitimate like you know, you're in year out
you're gonna be in this thing superstar. Since Patrick, I
think that there was hope that Carmelo could be that guy.
(29:54):
So I think that's the bigger issue. Like I think
people would forget about Dolan if they were able to
have someone what aside there Now people aren't signing there
because of him. Then you can say that maybe it's
strictly adulent issue, but yeah, it could be that. Al Right,
so we're past the trade deadline? How do they fix
this thing now? If I'm management, I would probably scale
(30:15):
down a little bit and build for the future, because
you do have some young pieces that are really nice.
I would probably like you, guys, can't rush this thing
right next, are in it for the long game? Nice,
slow and study. Uh, this was very fun. I wish
nothing but another half century of futility for the next
although the Sixers have been just as bad. But I
appreciate both of you. Go read Chris Herring's fantastic new
book Blood in the Garden and read Yeah It's Waiting
(30:38):
for You at home, and go watch Ben on the
after party season to a Space Force and in Sonic
to gentlemen, thank you, nice to see you, guys, Thank
you for having me after a break an NBA media
reunion with Haleyo's Shaughnessy and Dan Divine to discuss Ben Simmons,
James Harden and the new Look Nets and seventy sixers.
(31:07):
She's one half of the Amazing Spinster's podcast, available wherever
you get your favorite shows, and he's one of the
best and most prolific NBA writers around. You can read
him every day on the Ringer. Haleyo Shaughnessy and Dan
Diviner here, Welcome to Sports Illustrated Weekly. My friends, we're back.
Whoop gons. Thank you so much for having us. Let's
talk about Derek White to the Celtics. Once upon a
(31:30):
time we did an NBA podcast together. Our producer on
that show is our producer on this show. Isaac Lee.
Good morning. He I am so hungover. How are you feeling?
Bright eyed and bushy tailed? We are recording this on
Monday morning. Yesterday was a Super Bowl. The Los Angeles
Rams won the Super Bowl. My Liver is not taking
it super well and he's a Rams fan, so congratulations
(31:52):
on that. But uh, I had to bring the gang
back together. Like I said, we used to do an
NBA podcast together and last week's Trey deadline shook the
NBA and filled my cold black Philly heart. Uh specifically
when James Harden was traded to the seventies Sixers and
Ben Simmons to the Brooklyn Nets. As It correct me
if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the first
time we've ever talked about the Sixers of podcast history
(32:14):
of audio. So I wanted to bring my friends together
to discuss this because it's a very important trade that
has changed the landscape of the NBA. As always, adhering
to our contractual obligations and protocols, Haley gets to go first. Haley,
were you surprised this deal got done given that it
came together so late and it involved two massive stars
and that they were traded to division rivals. Yes, pent
(32:37):
I never expected that this was going to happen during
the season. It seemed like obviously both sides wanted to
make something happen after the season, But all the initial
reports said that Harden realized the opportunity that this Nets
team had and where it could go, and so it's like,
why would you give up on a championship? And it
was only after the trade that they became not the
(32:58):
title favorites, which is wild there in the eighth spot.
So no, I didn't expect it all. I thought that
everyone wanted to remain in place at least this year,
and then it was just kind of after this time
out type of deal. Yeah, and you bring up a
really good point like that. You know, everybody expected the
Nuts to be the favorites, and Dan I was surprised
(33:19):
that the Nuts gave up on the Kyrie, Harden and
Katie experiments so quickly because they don't played sixteen games
together and they were thirteen and three during that time.
But I think you're right to point out the sixteen
games because it seems like the nature of the way
everything came together gave up on the experiment for them,
like Katie's injuries, the fact that they weren't able to
get through the playoffs last year with everybody intact, the
(33:40):
fact that Kyrie has chosen to make himself unavailable for
a large portion of their games this year, and like
Katie's hurt, now Harden had to kind of shoulder this
huge burden on his own for a lot of this season.
They weren't getting what they hoped for. Nobody got what
they bought they sort of thought they were buying, Like
the picture on the package wound up looking a lot
different from what came together, and so I think Arden
(34:00):
looks at it and says, is this really my best
chance to win a championship? And then he goes and
he looks up the turnpike a little bit and he sees,
you know, maybe the m v P of the league
and says not, maybe the over there is better. And
that kind of sets everything in motion a lot faster.
Dan knows his audience calling him and be the m
v P. I love that. So, Haley, you brought this
up on Twitter, so I want to throw it out
to the gang. U asked if I have two more
(34:22):
despised star players ever made up a trade before? And
I think that that's really interesting because James Harden forces
his way out of a second team in roughly as
many years. And then Ben Simmons, we all know how
he's thought of in Philadelphia. That's a complicated situation, but
he he obviously did not make himself well liked with
the way that he sat out this season. Do we
feel like that like that this is the epitome of
(34:44):
two guys who were hated by their own fan bases
being swapped for each other. No, it's not their own
fan bases with Ben Simmons, it is the Sixers fan base.
With Harden, he has been called thinks his entire career.
He's lazy, he does not play defense, he comes to
um training camps larger than people would like. The free
(35:05):
throws annoy people. He's literally been accused of ruining the
game of basketball. So I do think very much that
he's been hated by everyone. That's really not even all
of them either. I like that you mentioned that he
comes to training camp larger than people would like. It's
such a genteel euphemism. Isaac and Dan, what about Ben?
Because I think like I'm a little too close to
it to see how other people outside of Philadelphia feel
(35:27):
about him, Because look, he's a really good player in
a lot of respects. He influences the game in a
lot of positive ways. He's great on the break, he's
a great rebounder and excellent pass or other worldly defender
who can switch one through five. But deciding to take
your ball and go home because people were too mean
to you when I don't think that they were too
mean to you is difficult for Philadelphians too, And I'm
(35:48):
not using this in the way that you think I am,
but process it so like for you guys when you're
watching from afar, like what did you make of Ben? Yeah,
I think that everybody kind of got what they want
it and that sort of sucks, Like it's kind of
a bummer that everyone got that they wanted in this case,
because the our lasting memory of Ben Simmons in Philadelphia
isn't like the All NBA trips and the you know,
(36:10):
near defensive Player of the Year caliber performances. It's him
turtling at the absolute worst time and then like not
giving you some kind of hero's journey return trip, Like
there's the narrative arc of what happened there you were
hoping for is just a straight line into a brick wall.
So he doesn't really go to Brooklyn with any kind
of momentum where people are like excited about this. It's
(36:31):
just like this guy, how did his way out of
one situation? The other guy powdered his way out of
two situations in thirteen months. We know this is a
big deal, but who should we be psyched about in
this context? And we're still gonna need to see Ben
Simmons be the guy we know he we think he
can be, because we didn't see that for the last
series we saw him, and we haven't seen him play
basketball in six months or eight months or whatever it is,
(36:52):
so to be revealed on that for sure. I have
a question if then comes back and he looks like
taller Tony Allen essentially, which is what he was last year,
wouldn't that be enough to fit next to Kyrie and
Katie and that next team to like make it pretty
far in the playoffs. Or does Brooklyn need Ben to
be the Ben Simmons of promise. When you're saying of promise,
(37:16):
do you mean like the fully realized part that Philly
never got. Yeah, Magic Johnson without a jumper. And I
really feel like he's having a Wiggins moment right now
where he gets to take a step back and not
be in the spotlight, not have the expectations. It's going
to play out really well for him, because what is
very rewarding on a team if you can't do shooting
the other two most important things. He's excellent at playmaking
and defense. So my question, you know what I mean,
(37:39):
My my question about all that is just like, is
Ben Simmons gonna be okay with that? Like the last
time we saw him, he did not seem to want
very many parts of high leverage moments with the ball
in his hands. But everything else we know about Ben
Simmons is that he views himself as the point guard,
the number one guy, the guy who should have a
team built around him. Like if this turns into Kyrie
and k D get all the ball handling and shooting
(38:01):
opportunities late in the game, and you're just back in
the dunker spot again, like you are a couple of
playoffs ago. Is Ben Simmons okay with that? And there's
a read on this situation that is, it took all
this sort of drama and headaches and months and months
to get out and get what you wanted, And maybe
that is a time for reflection and sort of a
humbling experience where you figure out again who you supposed
to be. But if you're also like I just waited
(38:23):
and put my foot down until I got what I
wanted and now I'm in this other situation, are you
gonna maybe just think, no, I should be getting what
I want here too, So I'm really fascinated by what
kind of role he sees for himself there and like
how that actually looks in practice, provided we see the
realized version of that team with Kyrie Irving able to play,
which you know TBD, and with Kevin Durant healthy again,
(38:44):
which again we'll see you in a few weeks. But
I think a lot of that's gonna depend on Ben
simmons temperament, and man, if you are banking on something
Ben simmons Is temperament might not be the thing that
you want to be banking on. Yeah, I think the
answer to your question is, I mean, we saw it
in the Toronto Series a couple of years ago, where
you know, if not for Kauai four bounced shot, maybe
the Sixers advanced. But Zach Lowe had asked Ben Simmons
(39:07):
about him being deployed in the dunker spot because they
basically had to take the ball out of his hand,
and they'd have in every single playoff because we saw,
you know what happens to Ben Simmons. He disappears because
he can't shoot and he doesn't want to shoot. And
he said, no, I'm not that guy. I'm not the
guy who's gonna be in the dunker spot. I'm better
than that, so I would be surprised if all of
a sudden he's like, yeah, I'm gonna do all the
little things that need to be done. I'm interested in this.
(39:27):
I'm gonna recuse myself from this. I'm gonna throw it
up to the group because again, I'm a little too
close to this. So I don't think that Sixers fans
really cared about the Nets before this, and I don't
really think that the Nets cared about Sixers fans either, right, So,
but now you have James Harden forcing his way out
and going to the seventi Sixers and Ben Simmons going
to Brooklyn. Does this make it an instant rivalry? I mean,
(39:49):
are we excited about this potential rivalry? I've literally only
met one Nets fan in my entire life, so I
don't know who is bringing the fury that Sixers fans have. Um,
I would say no, because everyone's happy. Like everybody is happy.
The only person who wanted Ben Simmons out of Philly
more than Sixers fans is Ben Simmons, So he's happy.
(40:10):
Sixers fans are happy hard and wanted out. He wasn't
communicating with the team. He wasn't talking to Katie even
before the injury, So I think everyone's happy about this.
I don't necessarily think this has the bones for a rivalry,
but I could be wrong. What about it? Just as
consumers Isaac and Dan of basketball, are you excited to
see these two teams play each other? I mean, Isaac,
(40:31):
you're riding the post Super Bowl high. Is this going
to start really crank you up to another level? Actually? No,
not really no, because the exciting teams, unfortunately are in
the West. At the top of the West, Golden State
and Phoenix. They're the most exciting teams to watch right now,
day in and day out, and even in the East.
(40:51):
I feel like Milwaukee, having won the championship last year,
are still the quality team to beat, and it's not
these newly formed super teams. Now. The one player I
will highlight is going to be Joel Embiid. Dan, you
said earlier he might be the m v P. I
would go as far to say he is the m
v P. A big dude in Denver, my friend, there's
a big dude in Denver. Yeah. Yeah, But the team
(41:11):
is underperforming right, so, like it's really difficult to reward
him again, underperforming is the word. I think performing at
what they can do. They're injured, But I think I
think your point, Isaac is is well taken. Like the
top of the league is still at the top of
the West. But in terms of of I guess like
the storylines that kind of drive everything and the potential
for introducing new passion into it. I don't know that
anybody has associated passion, particularly with the Nets in any
(41:35):
of their iterations since moving to Brooklyn, Like there's been
a lot of attempts to kind of crank them up,
but it hasn't really happened yet. The idea of a
playoff series, Philly Brooklyn playoff series where like Simmons has
to perform in Philly under you know, the brightest lights
in the scrutiny, and Harden having to like address all
of the questions that he's had. Right, Like, the every
question that we have about James Harden always comes back
(41:57):
to what can you do in the playoffs when it matters?
And so far the answers so that have been pretty
lack luster here to say the least. So that's really
interesting to me. Is that enough for a rivalry? I mean,
maybe in the context of an NBA where that this
really aren't a whole lot of rivalries. Players don't stay
with teams very long, Teams don't face each other all
that often. It's tough to do, but it might be
about as good as we get for right now. Like
it's close enough that if that series happens in a
(42:18):
couple of months, the pitch will be kind of feverish.
At that point. I think you guys are way overthinking this.
The answer is, yes, this is gonna be so fun.
I can't. I want to run something past you, guys.
So we had the All Star Draft last week and
Charles Barkley and Lebron James we're talking about James Harden's
health and I want to play that sound for you.
(42:39):
Is he can he? Is? He? Is? He? He hasn't played?
Is he healthy? Who's that? James? He hasn't played? What
happens if he got traded? He's healthy? Now he's missed
the last three with a with a handy And now
we know why Lebron carry a clipboard with right now
(43:00):
it's not hot on that day he played the next game.
I love Charles Barkley alas his prediction is incorrect. The
Sixers announced as we were recording this that Harden is
out through the All Star break. He's going to rehab
his hamstring. He will not play in the All Star Game.
So that's a little bit of a bummer. We're gonna
have to wait a little bit to see James Harden
next to Joel Embiad. But let's talk about actual basketball here.
(43:22):
How do we think that he's going to pair with
Joel Embiad? Because our Sports Illustrated colleague Michael Peena little
lukewarm on this, is not sure how that's gonna work
out when you have two guys who are heavy usage
rate James Harden, as we know, loves the io and
Joel Embiad is having an m v P season. So
is this gonna be good? Or my should I start
getting nervous here? Yeah? I think the broad strokes on
(43:44):
Philly is like you are plugging a guy who, even
in a diminished state as he's been for most of
the season, is still an All Star. You're plugging him
into an empty space essentially in the lineup, or you're
having him replaced Seth Curry, who you know, as you said,
has been awesome as a dribble handoff partner in a
floor space and everything for him B but it's still
not James Harden, you know. And we've talked so many
times with Sixers bloggers and other podcasters, like the guys
(44:06):
from the Right, Turkey Sanchez, about how it seems like
there's a rule where you can never have more than
one guard in Philadelphia who can dribble, pass and shoot.
And now they've got to Tyrese. Maxie has been fantastic
this season, so there's more firepower, more ways to fit
this together, more shooting. And I'm just like, if Embiid
wasn't on board for this and didn't have the kind
of big basketball brain to think about how we can
(44:27):
make it work, then I don't know that it would
have happened in this way. So there's a lot of
problems solving there. I think Doc Rivers will be able
to massage the egos and sort of help figure out.
Please Doc stagger these guys. Please let don't just make
it so that it's all bench lineups when you have
two guys like this, Um Isaac, I'm sorry, I know
that hurts you. It hurts your heart, you know, But uh,
if there's enough will. There will be ways to do it.
(44:49):
It's just it might take some sussing out. It might
take a little while to kind of break the eggs
to figure it all out. Dan, as a Clippers fan,
I wouldn't be too optimistic about Doc Rivers staggering lineups.
I don't think that's within his vocabulary. Yeah, he hates
to do that for some reason. I'm more optimistic than
you guys are. Of course you are. I mean, look, yeah, surprisingly,
I think this is gonna work out great. Uh. Joel
(45:11):
Embiad forever has lacked a guard who can do the
things that James Harden can do, right. I mean, James
Harden is exactly what you in theory would want to
put with Joel Embiad. I mean, somebody who can dribble, pass,
and shoot, as we said, and he's one of the
best to ever do those things. So I'm excited for
Joel Embiad to have a running mate who is commensurate
with his with his ability. I'm also interested Bill and
(45:33):
we talked about this a little bit about how we
think Ben Simmons will pay in Brooklyn because on paper,
you look at it and go should work out great, right,
provided that he does all the things that Ben Simmons
does well and avoids doing the things that he doesn't
do well. But that caveat requires him not to be
the point guard with the ball in his hands at
all times, to be a glue guy. There's an exception
(45:56):
to even that, though. Are they gonna have him run
point when kay he's not playing because as of right now,
Kyrie still can't play at home, so they could There's
a couple of options. They could stick it and have
him be the four, or I've even seen some people
play with the idea of the five the entire time,
or maybe they scoot Patty over. I'm really not sure
(46:18):
that's what I'm interested in. But because of the package
with Seth, I'm excited about this. I just think that
it's going to be away for Ben Samints to not
have all the pressure. You're really excited about Seth Curry.
Oh yeah, I don't think people are high enough on him.
And also, what's the Joe Harris status because that would
be extremely helpful as well, but that would take between
(46:40):
k D Joe Harris. The great mystery, Seth, you don't
need this man to shoot. I love that you keep
bringing up Seth Curry. I don't even think Seth Curry
is is excited about Seth carry as you are. But
I wanted to bring this up because Doc Rivers now
he canceled practice, and somebody on Twitter mentioned that he
canceled practice so he could say goodbye to his grand kids,
which I think was hilarious. But Dr Rivers has now
(47:02):
traded his son in law and his son no compunction
whatsoever about trading family members. Uh. Last one for you guys,
I want to bring this up. March ten, the Nuts
are supposed to play at the Sixers and I'm sure
that the Sixers will have a touching tribute video for
Ben Simmons prepared. My question for you guys, it's gonna
be wild if Ben Simmons plays. Do you think Ben
(47:22):
Simmons plays, Because if he does play, they're gonna have
to preemptively ban everybody who goes to that game for life,
like every Sixers fan is just never going to be
allowed back. But will Ben Simmons play against the Sixers? No,
I don't think so. I think that is exactly the situation.
You don't want to have to have him face before
it matters most. I mean there's an argument to be
(47:43):
made that, like ripping the band aid off and having
it happened before you get into a playoff series. It
makes a lot of sense too. But he made a
choice to not face a lot of that sort of
stuff already, and then he got to leave, got to
go where he wanted to go. I don't think he's
gonna stop making that choice. I don't see it. Yeah,
the heat you'd catch for skipping a game like that
(48:04):
or sitting out or whatever because you're like, have a
hammy or something, the heart and hammy. No one could
see you wink, but I wink for you three, So
I didn't know this wasn't on YouTube. Sorry sorry, um.
The flag that you'd catch from something like that, like, oh,
(48:26):
you can't handle the pressure, you're a baby, you don't
want to face these guys. He's already gotten that. So
it's certainly not a case of him not wanting to
face those accusations. He's definitely already got that, like for months. See,
I'd love to be wrong about it, because I think
the only thing that we've seen in the recent past
it's been like that level of kind of intensity and
(48:47):
vitriol was when Lebron first went back to Cleveland and
that was like nuts. It was the loudest crowd I
ever heard through a TV. Was that Cleveland crowd sort
of responding to him coming back. And then we saw
how Lebron responded in a moment and the heat. It
was like a validation of the choice and that the
heat were amazing and he played fantastic in that game.
I'd love to see how Ben Simmons response to it
(49:08):
on the court. I'm skeptical that we're going to I
think it would be incredible. I can't wait. I'm very
excited about this and the trade in general. Isaac played
me out with a little so Many Sixers theme song.
As we do this, you can hear Haley and her
partner Jordan Ligann's on the Excellent Spinster's podcast. Please listen
and subscribe and always read Dan Devine on the NBA
is the most prolific NBA writer out there. I think
(49:28):
he wrote like seven pieces while we were recording this
pot alone, Haley, Dan and Isaac, you guys are the best.
It is always a good call when we get to talk.
Thank you everybody. Sports illust Weekly is a production of
(50:01):
sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your favorite shows. And for more
of Sports Illustrated It's best stories and podcasts, visit SI
dot com. This episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly was produced
by Alex Kappelman, Cooper McKim and Isaac Lee, who was
(50:22):
also our sound engineer. Our senior producer is Dan Bloom.
Our executive producers are Scott Brody and me John Gonzalez.
Our theme song is by Nolan Schneider. Thanks for listening,
and if you've stuck around this long, we leave you
with this from our conversation with Ben Schwartz. I'll introduce
(50:44):
you guys, and we will run through nineties nostalgia, Nicks,
Beanie babies, and all that ship
On this episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly, pop culture and
sports collide when actor and comedian Ben Schwartz and Sports
Illustrated Senior writer Chris Herring joined us to discuss Chris's
new book, Blood in the Garden are shared love of
the nineties n b A and the state of the
current New York Next and later, Ben Simmons and James
Harden were part of a blockbuster trade during last week's deadline.
(00:26):
But how will Simmons look on the nets and will
Harden finally make the Sixers a championship contender. I'm joined
by my friends and former co workers Haleyo Shaughnessy of
The Spinster's Podcast and Dan Divine of The Ringer for
a reunion deep dive. But first, Matthew Stafford and the
Los Angeles Rams are Super Bowl champions. But before they
(00:47):
even got to the big Game, there were whispers and
rumors about the legendary trip to Cabo that ended up
with Stafford being traded from Detroit to l A. Sports
Illustrated Senior writer Greg Bishop pulls back the curtain and
explains how a joint vacation, an unusual l a rainstorm,
and fate changed the Rams fortunes and altered the course
(01:08):
of NFL history. It's February sixteen. I'm your host, John
Gonzalez from Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. This is
Sports Illustrated Weekly. PS donn it tuxdown? With this touchdown
(01:33):
to Cooper Cup, Rams quarterback Matthew Stafford changed the narrative
about his career for good. After failing to win a
playoff game in twelve seasons with Detroit, Stafford won a
championship in his first season with the Rams, cementing his
legacy in a pressure situation, I don't know if I
have ever seen anybody be better than Matthew Stafford and
(01:55):
Cooper Cup. A lot of the Rams were looking for
the same vindication, Aaron Donald, Odell Beckham Jr. Eric Weddle,
Andrew Whitworth, and of course head coach Sean McVeigh. But
the Rams were built to win the Super Bowl and
they have sealed the deal. But before any of them
could call themselves world champs, including an especially Stafford and
(02:19):
unlikely and now legendary, set of circumstances had to unfold.
Do you know what you're gonna do? You're gonna send
the tourism industry in Cabo off the chain, how about that?
I mean, nobody believes that story is true. What happened
one year ago between Matthew Stafford and the Rams has
(02:41):
become the stuff of rumor and intrigue. So I kind
of linked the two of them up while they were
in Cambo the stuff to be traded, and I'd love
to talk to him. It's been whispered about in NFL
circles ever since. It was also coincided with him being
granted permission to seek a trade. It's starting to feel
really are a trip to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico that
(03:03):
would change the fortunes of the Rams in wholly unexpected ways.
It was just something that I didn't think it was
gonna ever happen, And you know an hour here. It's
a story that hasn't been told until now. It's really
crazy and it was really special. It's not even believable,
but it's the truth. As somebody who lives in l A,
(03:27):
I can tell you, it never rains in l A
except for what it does. Here's Melissa Whitworth, Rams tackle
Andrew Whitworth's wife the season was over, and Sean's fiance
Veronica called me and said, hey, listen, it's supposed to
rain all week here. You only get out of here.
I was like, ah, that sounds great. So within forty
(03:49):
eight hours decided we were rolling out. Melissa's husband, Andrew,
is the Rams left tackle. He's the oldest position player
left in the National Football League, and because he's older
than Sean McVeigh, they've been friends since Andrew came over.
In This is Greg Bishop, senior writer for s I
who wrote SI Super Bowl cover story from Los Angeles
along with Connor Orr. He spent time with the Ellie
(04:12):
Rams uncovering a piece of recent NFL lore. They decided
they're gonna go to Cabo this. It wasn't like to
go out and recruit, you know, a player who might
be there. It was simply like, let's go find a
beach where we can sit around and do nothing for
a few days. We knew we wanted to get away.
We travel with the White Worst Three frequently and so
(04:32):
that's a place that we had been before. This is
Sean McVeigh. It's a good place to kind of online
as the season ends. I love that part of the story.
I love that the mcveigh's and the white worst for like,
let's just get out of here, Let's go and put
our feet in the sand and try to decompress a
little bit. What is that dynamic like with that group?
(04:54):
It sounds like they spend a lot of time together. Yeah,
I think Andrew and Sean would make fun of me
using Netflix Buddy Show. I mean, you gotta picture their
images just to start with. You know, Andrew is six six,
he's over three hundred pounds, he's big bald. Sean calls
him the swaggiest offensive lineman in the NFL. He's like
a great dancer. He wears Jordan's very stylish. And then
(05:18):
his coach is smaller, much more type A. His hair
is indicative of his personality. It's perfect, it's always in
the right place, and him and Andrew a sort of
a really cool contrast and styles. What I think is
even more interesting in that regard is that they've sort
of evolved together. You know, Andrew was a guy who
played it for the Bengals for eleven seasons. He'd been
(05:40):
in the playoffs six times and never won a playoff game.
And Sean was a guy who was really tightly wound.
And Andrews showed him how to relax a little, to
not take himself as seriously, to evolve into a little
bit more fuller of a person. It sets the stage
nicely for Kabo because it's a very unique relationship between
player and coach. So the what Worths and the mcveigh's
(06:01):
go to Kabba, and as it turns out, there not
alone because half of the NFL was on vacation there.
Greg tell us about Kaba. It is a beautiful town
right on the ocean. The geography around it is very striking.
The w wordst like to go there. It's a place
they generally take vacations to. And like you said, half
the NFL was there. You're talking Sean Paid and Drew Brees,
(06:23):
Matt Naggy. I mean there was a ton of people.
And Matt Stafford actually told you they were planning a
vacation to go to the Bahamas at the same time,
but a big storm had come through so their plans
completely changed. We're thing, we're going to the Bahamas, and
then it kind of just come back from our hurricane.
Called the people wh knew there and they said, only
one of our restaurants are open. You know, it's probably
(06:43):
not worth coming. You should go to the place of
my Dominican look it up on my house. Beautiful. But
it's four and a half five hours from Detroit. I'm
sitting there going, if we're gonna go four and a a
half five hours, might as well just go somewhere we
know that we're gonna like, let's just go to Cambo.
They decided on Cabo serendipitously and happened to arrive at
exactly the same time. So we've talked about the coach,
(07:08):
we've talked about the quarterback, but as usual, it's left
to the lineman to do the actual heavy lifting. So
tell us who Clint Bowling is and what was his
role in this story. You're right, lineman. Always know that
some of my favorite soviceis And what happened with Bowling
like was really interesting because he made the connection himself.
He knew that the Wit Worst often vacation in Cabo,
(07:29):
So I know Wit goes there in the off season,
and I know I think he was there with Sean
just kind of right after their season was unwinding. And
he played college football with Matthew Stafford at Georgia. So
he figures out that Matthew Stafford is in Cabo and
on vacation with his family, and he figures out by
texting Whitworth that Andrews also there. Yeah, so Clint sends
(07:52):
me his number. It's basically just like he'll be down there.
And then, um, one of those kind of sharing with Sean,
that I was gonna play golf with him. Uh. It
was like, dude, like he's like up to be traded
and I'd love to talk to him because I heard
he was like allowed to seek his own trade or whatever.
This moment is imprinted in Sean mcveigh's mind. You know,
(08:13):
we were watching the NFC Championship game. I can remember
how by the pool and uh, when Whitward found out
that Stafford and his family were going to be staying
in the same area and was also coincided with him
being granted permission to seek a trade, and so that
was something that we thought was pretty unique for sure.
Bowling sends him a text message says they're yelling Cabo.
(08:34):
Andrew says yes. He says, Matthew Stafford wants to play
golf with you. And Andrew says, give him my number.
That that's NFL history and one text exchange right there
and kind of passed along that Andrew I got a
friend in Cabo, he ends up in Cabo. I liked
them up to just go out and play some golf.
The wake Bowling knows Whitworth is that he was a
(08:55):
long time Bengal. In fact, not only were they teammates,
but they were the left side of Incinnati's offensive line
for multiple seasons. So the irony is not lost on
Clint now that ultimately that text message exchange and sending
Whitworths number to Stafford, you know, could have changed the
trajectory of Bengal's history. I spent eight years in Cincinnati's
(09:16):
to seeing them in the Super Bowl. I'm a little conflicted,
but I definitely think about, you know, let's shoot, what
if Matthew ends up in Baker's Bay, or you know,
if I didn't link them up, if it all ends
up happening kind of thing, right, and you know, if
they win, or you're gonna be like, man, maybe should
have never said that number, you know, Yeah, you know,
I like I needed to be I need to get
(09:36):
my finders that it's such an awesome connection. And again
they're like, so much of this is left to luck.
So matt Stafford goes out plays golf with Andrew Witworth.
As you mentioned, what Worth had played his first eleven
season with the Bengals. They never want a playoff game,
had gone thirty one years before this season without winning
a playoff game. And then, of course Stafford well chronicled
issues with the Lions forever and ever just not playing well.
(09:59):
They never want to playoff game either, So they go
out on the golf course. How does what Worth pitch
the rams to Stafford? You know, this is a private
members only course. You can see the Sea of Cortez
on one side the deserts on the other. So we
Worth did something that I think was really brilliant on
the golf course. I don't like to go play like
casual golf. There's always gonna be some time we're playing
(10:20):
for something, or we're playing for bragging rights or some
kind of competition. But I'm like, you know what, like
I want to get to know Matthew and just talk.
And so that's what we did. We just kind of
split around talking and get to know one another. He
can tell that Matthew is distracted. His agent keeps calling.
He seems kind of burdened by the whole thing, the
idea of picking up and like Andrew and Melissa, he
(10:41):
has four children with Kelly Stafford, and you know, moving
your whole family, and you've been in this routine even
if it hasn't netted the results you want for your
whole life. And so Andrew decides to speak from his
own experience. He says to Matthew, I'm not going to
try to sell you on coming to l A, but
I am going to talk about my situation. He lays
out the similarities. He says, Okay, this is why I
(11:04):
knew it was time to leave. You know, I knew
I was gonna have to take my final shots at
a ring elsewhere. He just wasn't really sure what to do.
And Andrew said, listen, guy, this is Melissa Whitworth again.
I want you to think on this because it's the
rest of your life at your legacy first and foremost.
Having been through this myself, I know all the emotions
(11:26):
with it. I want you guys be happy. Whatever's best
and whatever makes you feel good about where you're going
is the number one thing. And when I talked to
Matthew Stafford this week, he said he actually that was
the thing he appreciated most, both the lines understanding and
whitworth and what he told them. I'm in a lot,
you know. I have a lot of respect for what
(11:46):
he's done in this league and who he is as
a person, and he was definitely eye leaned on. So
you mentioned that Matt Stafford there on the course, he's distracted.
He's on his phone the whole time. I'm he's trying
to figure out if he wants to go to the rams. Meanwhile,
Sean McVeigh is supposed to be relaxing in paradise. He's
doing the same thing as you write in your story.
(12:08):
He seems agitated, he's withdrawn, he's on his phone constantly.
They're all in paradise, They're all supposed to be having
a good time, but what's going on with McVeigh behind
the scenes. I love this part because it's just so Sean.
You know, when I profiled them in seventeen, I wrote
a lot about work life balance, which to him is
sort of a goal that he would like to have
but realizes he had. They will never have it. You know,
(12:31):
they're all in paradise. The wit Words have four kids,
their paddle boarding, they're hanging out of the pool. They
got all those good drinks with the sugar and the
umbrellas and guests who's nowhere to be found, you know,
Sean McVeigh. And essentially they thought he was a little
bit grumpy, a little bit moody, and just definitely not
in vacation mode. But what he was really doing was
(12:52):
calling RAMS executives who had been very late into the
Matthew Stafford derby. They were the last team that was
seriously contending for him that came in. Could they pull
off another heist? And ultimately they decided very quickly that yes,
that he would be the difference maker and that they
would push as hard as possible while they all happened
(13:12):
to be in Cabo to go get him. So in
order to get him to Los Angeles, RAMS general manager
Less Sneed needs to spring into action. And I think
everybody who knows anything about less Sneed now knows he
is a man of action. He is willing to play
for the now at the expense of the future. So
what happens as this whole thing gets ramped up and
(13:33):
less It's brought into the process and he decides, yeah,
Matt Stafford's our guy. Yeah, well, his whole team went
to work on it instantly, and like strongly. I think
it's interesting this season that people say that Rams went
all in, like he's he's always been all in. This
is a guy who thinks that draft picks are overvalued.
You know. That's essentially where the Rams differentiate themselves from
(13:54):
other teams. They believe that they're less guaranteed than you think,
and that if you can trade a couple of six
to get a player who's established in some ways, you
have a competitive advantage. You know that that sort of
process has been picked apart over the years. Some people
have mocked it. Uh, some people have memed it. But
I think you know, what Less is looking for, based
(14:14):
on my conversations with him over the years, is essentially
a chance every year, you know, and so what what
gives you that best chance? If it's adding Matthew Stafford.
Great set the scene for us. It's a year ago.
It's January thirty there in Cabo. The Staffords and the
what Worst are at a restaurant in Cabo, and they
(14:35):
go and they have some drinks, and then they have
another rand and then they go to have dinner, and
then finally Sean McVeigh gets to walk in and break
the news. One person said, it was like where's Waldo?
Like everyone's just like, where the heck is Sean McVeigh,
What is he doing? And they learned enough drinks and
they're just hanging out because they have no idea really
where everything is at. You know, they know the Rams
(14:55):
are interested, obviously, they know that their negotiations that are ongoing.
But there were teams like Washington and Carolina that had
made significantly better offers, and there were rumors that if
Stafford went to a team that wasn't gonna contend, that
he planned to retire, rumors that people who close to
him have told me aren't true. But it also kind
of sets the background. So all of a sudden there
(15:16):
comes Mr Perfect hair spiked right in the front, just
like always, and he walks into the restaurant and at
that point, Sean McVeigh looks at the table, very much
dramatic effect, little pause, and he gestures in Matthew Stafford
and he says, guys, this is your new quarterback. So Greg,
(15:39):
everybody's having a good time, but what worth and Stafford
and McVeigh decided to make a phone call a FaceTime actually,
and they FaceTime Cooper Coup and they're all excited about everything.
It's the night of Stafford landing with the Rams. January
tell us about that FaceTime and what happens almost exactly
a year later. It was pretty amazing. So there were
(16:01):
a lot of face times, Like these guys called Aaron Donald,
they called the Rams executives. They each called like people
in their respective circles. But the one that stood out
to me, I believe that Sean started the call with like, Coop,
we got a quarterback. I mean, I actually have a
picture of the three of us FaceTime and Cooper top
right after it happened, and we're on the phone with
(16:24):
Cooper and so I took a picture of us. The
FaceTime calling in and of itself isn't incredibly noteworthy. But
what is noteworthy is that, exactly one year later, almost
to the exact time, I believe it was about a
thirty minute time difference, those guys won the NFC Championship
and beat the forty niners. And you know, they took
another picture of the TV screen and it's everyone that
(16:47):
was there in a circle, hugging in triumph. And from
one January to the next to me is the story
of the ram Super Bowl, from like knowing you gotta
do something, has to doing it, to everything that happened afterwards,
and from all those things combining for the win. I
do a lot of scriptwriting, but I don't think I
(17:09):
could write a script that good. It's been an unbelievable journey.
That's my family and I have been on and it's
been an amazing twelve months. But we're win for sure.
And now they've won the super Bowl, their super Bowl champions.
That's the perfect ending to their script. It's the Hollywood
ending that they always wanted and they got it. Greg Bishop,
excellent work by you. Thank you for this. Thank you friend.
(17:33):
You can read Greg bishops super Bowl cover story, which
he co authored with Connor Or, about the Cabo trip
and so much more on SI dot com. Well linked
to it in our show Notes. After a break, Actor
and comedian Ben Schwartz and SI senior writer Chris Herring
joined us to discuss all things Nicks and nostalgia. S
(17:58):
I Senior writer Chris Harry is the author of the
New York Times best selling book Blotted in the Garden,
The Flagrant History of the New York Knicks. It's a
terrific book that perfectly captures those teams and the nineties
NBA nostalgia that I love. But as a Sixers fan
who definitely did not romanticize those nixt teams, I wanted
to have a conversation with Chris and someone who actually
(18:20):
held those pat Riley and Patrick Ewing teams near and
dear to his heart. And for that we brought on
a special guest who is a lifelong die hard Knicks
fan who was kind enough to join us. We just
what Georges and we said, Picks be a New York.
Were on the New York Knicks. Ain't go New York,
(18:42):
New Ylet Goin' go go New Ylet go go. You
can watch him on the new Apple Plus series The
After Party, and the second season of Space Force is forthcoming,
and you can carry him as the star in Sonic
to Ben Schwartz is here, gentlemen, Welcome to Sports Illustrated Weekly.
(19:05):
Hi everybody, what an exciting time. We're thrilled to have you.
I think when I think about those Knicks and that era,
I'm reminded of like the physicality and the ISOs and
backing people down and no easy layups and hard fouls,
and Chris, you wrote the literal book on it, so
that Air really embodied all of that, right, that's putting
it mildly. Uh. The Knicks did not have the offensive
talent that the Lakers did when pat Riley had been there.
(19:27):
They had Patrick Ewing and that was pretty much it
as far as the offensive talent they had. Like I said,
Mark Jackson, would dare you? Chris, how dare you? My goodness,
you wrote a book about this, and you're saying they're
soft outside of Patrick, not that they're soft, but well,
I mean soft offensively if you want to put it
that way. They did not have much to go to
offensively aside from Mark Jackson. But even that, they were
(19:49):
not a real up tembo team and pat Riley couldn't
utilize that. So he said, you know what, what do
I have at my disposal? Here had a bunch of
big bodies. He was big on messaging, and he told
them literally in first practice that he wanted them to
hack and to confuse officials enough to where they, you know,
they couldn't keep calling files after the first few minutes
of games, and that he basically wanted them to have
(20:09):
a nastiness and a toughness to them that nobody else
in the league had. Looking back now and even then,
Ben pat Riley coached this team, the Lakers show time,
run and gone and have fun. Like he coached a
bunch of guys who were like, yeah, we're not gonna
beat Michael Jordan's, so let's beat Michael Jordan's. It was incredible.
I mean, it's the most exciting. But by the way,
also I think it's a it's very to bring into
(20:32):
comedy a little bit. I think that everybody's version of
like their SNL cast is their favorite SNL cast, Like
my like you know, like, oh yeah, my favorite version
of cast was this. So like, when you're growing up,
you have such a nostalgia for the team that you
grew up rooting for falling in love with basketball. So
for me because I was born in eight one, I
mean the Nicks, especially when they're going on their big
playoff runs at the beginning in the early nineties, then
(20:53):
with Camby at the end of the nineties, it's all
I love basketball so much, but as a kid, it's everything,
Like it's everything you care about, Like when they lose
to the Houston Rockets. I'm outside being very emotional shooting
baskets by myself, and you know all those things you're
pretending to be when you're out there. Oh my god,
you don't want to know. By the way, I picked
number twenty because so when I was in high school
(21:14):
and was playing basketball on the team, I wasn't getting
utilized very much. And so I my number was number
twenty because Rolando Blackman, I thought was amazing on the
Knicks when he got traded over and again, the roll,
the round, the river, the glass he's got do you
remember a lot of that? And he was, wasn't he He
He must have been twenty on the Knicks. He was
twenty two, I think he was. He was. He was funny.
(21:37):
So I love the way he shot, and I loved
I thought he was great, and he never got enough
run in my head, so I made I made that
my number. And then when I got older, I could
just when people didn't understand the reference, I could just
point to Alan Houston, who was the greatest, you know,
one of the greatest nick shoot. I'm warning you already, man,
I'm just warning you spoiler alert. I won't give it away,
(21:57):
but there's some rough stuff in there out Rolando as
it relates to the Houston series. Really, I'm just preparing
you for it. I'm just getting you ready for it.
I'm so glad that you brought this up because the
ninety four finals that you just mentioned, John Starks did
not play great in Game seven Rolando black Man. A
lot of people thought they should have gone to him. Ben.
(22:17):
What do you remember about that series and what kind
of residual nightmares do you still have from it? I
feel like it's so unfair to keep because John Starks,
if you're a Knicks fan, he's like your guy. You
can have your Hubert Davis's and your Greg Anthony's and
all that stuff, and it's so exciting to see them
get run and play and stuff like that. Which I
love watching shooters because my game was anytime I went
in the paint, I would get my ass kicked because
(22:38):
I'm just like all bones and Jewish Maza. So I
just learned how to get a mid range game and
like a step in front of the NBA three point line,
which is still a college three back then. So it's
like very exciting. But I remember John Starks is like
the hero of all heroes soon from a whole water starts. Yes, stars,
(23:02):
so star Tomablaska falls for his background of not coming
from like a d one school and stuff like that.
But first of all, the lefty dunk changes everything. Second
of all, like he just tries so hard and he's
that the epitome of that. But I feel like every
time we bring him up now said he had a
(23:23):
terrible three point shooting percentage in the finals, I feel
like we we uh and we're not talking enough about
those local New York commercials where he's trying to raise
money for high school kids. Yeah. I mean, look, John
Starks had a great career and I hated watching him
because he always throttled the Sixers. But now when we
think about the reason why the NIXT lost the finals,
(23:45):
a lot of people blame John Starks. So, Chris, what
did you uncover when you were reporting that for your book?
So now I guess we're getting We're getting all the
way into the spoiler spoiler John Starks, John John Starks.
John Starks is really the reason they even have a
chance to win this series. Youing is really just not
up to the task of scoring on a Lajah one,
(24:07):
And so Starks kind of becomes their number one option
because of it. He has a rough Game one, maybe
because his great uncle died right before the series. He
was supposed to have thirty family members and the audience
for Game one. His great uncle passes away. It's kind
of like the closest thing to father figure he has.
And so he shoots three or eighteen in game one.
But then he rebounds games two to six and he's fantastic.
(24:29):
He had sixteen points in the fourth quarter of Game
six and he makes six shots in a row leading
up to the last play of Game six. The Knicks
were down by two on the last play of the game,
so Starks looks like he has a wide open three.
If this shot goes down, they win a title. The
Kimo Lage one gets maybe a fingernail on the shot start,
(24:57):
so the Nick's lose Game six. What happens next, Starks
ends up basically developing a three night insomnia because he
can't get the play out of his head. And he
goes into game seven and he's a mess basically because
he hasn't been able to sleep and the issue that
came up two and a half weeks before the finals.
They win Game seven against the Pacers in an emotional fashion.
No player on that roster, that Nicks roster would ever
(25:19):
won a championship. I don't even think anyone had ever
been to the finals. Even Rolando steps up and asks,
can we bring our wives to Houston? Because this is
a huge crowning achievement for us, and Pat Riley says no,
So he asks again, I'm not understanding Pat, like, you
really aren't gonna let us bring our wives? Why not?
And Pat just against says no, and he's kind of
(25:40):
offended and angry that Rolando would even ask a second
time in front of the whole team like that, because
Pat was rarely challenged and that way. So then you
fast forward to the finals moment Rolando hasn't gotten into
the finals at all. The Rockets are petrified Rolando Blackman,
because Rolando played for the Mavericks, had killed the Rockets
throughout his career, and Rolando never got in. Riley essentially
(26:02):
wrote letters to him, handwritten letters to him and the
years after, saying that it was the biggest mistake of
his career to not put And now Bett knows the
backstory behind his guy. So that's been completely spoiled for you. Yeah,
so now what am I gonna do? Just throw out
the book, Chris? Is there anything else in there? There's
a lot of other stuff in there. You know you
mentioned Youing and like that team and the the opportunity
(26:24):
that was miss because I think about the Iverson era
where I go, oh, man, I can't believe they didn't
get one championship out of it, Like Ewing was fantastic
and yet no championships. You're sor right, It's almost like, uh,
And you're watching him get older, you know, before he
was traded to Orlando and stuff, and like, we gotta
grab one. We just gotta grab one before this thing ends,
because he deserves it. He was so good for us.
I have, uh. I like sneakers a lot. I used
(26:45):
to work at the athletes Foot in Eastchester, so I
have these Jordan threes that are Nick's colorway, and I
thought it was amazing and I wear them all the time.
And then I put down the tongue. There here in
this hotel room, somewhere, I put down the tongue and
it's the date that Jordan went bananas on the Knicks.
It's celebrating the name that Jordan crushed the Knicks, and
I wear these sneakers all the time, not knowing that
(27:06):
it's like a celebration of us getting our asses kicked,
which I thought was very, very funny. The Jay's the
shoes are fantastic, but like you're walking around rocking these
things as a constant reminder of your childhood missed opportunities.
Never bought anything Jordan. I mean it's to expensive anyway,
but never bought anything Jordan when I was a kid.
Um never had Jordan's until I was grown. I mean,
(27:28):
maybe you know, seven years ago because as a Knicks fan,
you hate you hate the ball so much, and my
brain isn't smart enough and advance enough as a kid
to be like, oh, look at what we get to
watch right now. It's more just like every year they
beat us, every single year they beat us. And then
that's why it was like a little bit more fun
to watch Indiana series because Reggie would kill us every
(27:48):
now and then, but we would get them every now
and then too. Yeah, this is a perfect time to
transition from Reggie Miller killing the Knicks to today when
now Trey Young is killing the next Because I'm wondering
how you guys feel about these next. At the beginning
of the season, there was bing bong and everybody was excited,
and people are hyped about Julius Randall and everyon Fournier
and Kemba Walker, and now none of that excitement exists.
(28:09):
So what happened? I don't get the Kemba stuff at all,
and I think it's just because I haven't been reading
up on and enough. He's still skilled offensively, but I
think it takes like his tank empties a lot faster. Now.
It's very clear Fournier is like an inconsistent guy for
them that can go off for forty five when he's
playing Boston, but it's not gonna be there every night.
I think a big part of his Julius not having
(28:30):
the same space like he played a lot of last
season without a true true center. Mitch was out for
most of the year. Now he's there, and now he's
got like a big man that's kind of clogging a
lot of the paint in a way that wasn't happening before.
Where they had all those shooters last year. Everybody shot
like from three last year, and now you know Julius
isn't doing that, and r j has done better lately,
(28:52):
but has had you know, hot and cold moments as well,
and not having Rose has been huge for them. But
I just think you can't really overstate how important that's
been for them. Oh it was so fun to watch
Derrick Rose again. Do you know? It's crazy. As frustrated
as you may get every now and then, I find
myself so excited still and so because there's always every
game there's a shot, I think, and in previous Nick
(29:13):
teams that was never the case, and it's like and
you just you know, you go through it. And all
my friends were Lakers fans and make fun of me,
and I hated it, and now we have the same
record as them, and it makes me so happy. All right.
So the Lakers are obviously a storied franchise, but the
Buses are legendary owners, and I just feel like Nix's owner,
James Dolan, is more notorious than legendary. Can they win
(29:34):
a championship with James Dolan? I think you could. I
just think the real kind of common denominator other than
Dolan is that they haven't had a superstar since you
like a legitimate like you know, you're in year out
you're gonna be in this thing superstar. Since Patrick, I
think that there was hope that Carmelo could be that guy.
(29:54):
So I think that's the bigger issue. Like I think
people would forget about Dolan if they were able to
have someone what aside there Now people aren't signing there
because of him. Then you can say that maybe it's
strictly adulent issue, but yeah, it could be that. Al Right,
so we're past the trade deadline? How do they fix
this thing now? If I'm management, I would probably scale
(30:15):
down a little bit and build for the future, because
you do have some young pieces that are really nice.
I would probably like you, guys, can't rush this thing
right next, are in it for the long game? Nice,
slow and study. Uh, this was very fun. I wish
nothing but another half century of futility for the next
although the Sixers have been just as bad. But I
appreciate both of you. Go read Chris Herring's fantastic new
book Blood in the Garden and read Yeah It's Waiting
(30:38):
for You at home, and go watch Ben on the
after party season to a Space Force and in Sonic
to gentlemen, thank you, nice to see you, guys, Thank
you for having me after a break an NBA media
reunion with Haleyo's Shaughnessy and Dan Divine to discuss Ben Simmons,
James Harden and the new Look Nets and seventy sixers.
(31:07):
She's one half of the Amazing Spinster's podcast, available wherever
you get your favorite shows, and he's one of the
best and most prolific NBA writers around. You can read
him every day on the Ringer. Haleyo Shaughnessy and Dan
Diviner here, Welcome to Sports Illustrated Weekly. My friends, we're back.
Whoop gons. Thank you so much for having us. Let's
talk about Derek White to the Celtics. Once upon a
(31:30):
time we did an NBA podcast together. Our producer on
that show is our producer on this show. Isaac Lee.
Good morning. He I am so hungover. How are you feeling?
Bright eyed and bushy tailed? We are recording this on
Monday morning. Yesterday was a Super Bowl. The Los Angeles
Rams won the Super Bowl. My Liver is not taking
it super well and he's a Rams fan, so congratulations
(31:52):
on that. But uh, I had to bring the gang
back together. Like I said, we used to do an
NBA podcast together and last week's Trey deadline shook the
NBA and filled my cold black Philly heart. Uh specifically
when James Harden was traded to the seventies Sixers and
Ben Simmons to the Brooklyn Nets. As It correct me
if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the first
time we've ever talked about the Sixers of podcast history
(32:14):
of audio. So I wanted to bring my friends together
to discuss this because it's a very important trade that
has changed the landscape of the NBA. As always, adhering
to our contractual obligations and protocols, Haley gets to go first. Haley,
were you surprised this deal got done given that it
came together so late and it involved two massive stars
and that they were traded to division rivals. Yes, pent
(32:37):
I never expected that this was going to happen during
the season. It seemed like obviously both sides wanted to
make something happen after the season, But all the initial
reports said that Harden realized the opportunity that this Nets
team had and where it could go, and so it's like,
why would you give up on a championship? And it
was only after the trade that they became not the
(32:58):
title favorites, which is wild there in the eighth spot.
So no, I didn't expect it all. I thought that
everyone wanted to remain in place at least this year,
and then it was just kind of after this time
out type of deal. Yeah, and you bring up a
really good point like that. You know, everybody expected the
Nuts to be the favorites, and Dan I was surprised
(33:19):
that the Nuts gave up on the Kyrie, Harden and
Katie experiments so quickly because they don't played sixteen games
together and they were thirteen and three during that time.
But I think you're right to point out the sixteen
games because it seems like the nature of the way
everything came together gave up on the experiment for them,
like Katie's injuries, the fact that they weren't able to
get through the playoffs last year with everybody intact, the
(33:40):
fact that Kyrie has chosen to make himself unavailable for
a large portion of their games this year, and like
Katie's hurt, now Harden had to kind of shoulder this
huge burden on his own for a lot of this season.
They weren't getting what they hoped for. Nobody got what
they bought they sort of thought they were buying, Like
the picture on the package wound up looking a lot
different from what came together, and so I think Arden
(34:00):
looks at it and says, is this really my best
chance to win a championship? And then he goes and
he looks up the turnpike a little bit and he sees,
you know, maybe the m v P of the league
and says not, maybe the over there is better. And
that kind of sets everything in motion a lot faster.
Dan knows his audience calling him and be the m
v P. I love that. So, Haley, you brought this
up on Twitter, so I want to throw it out
to the gang. U asked if I have two more
(34:22):
despised star players ever made up a trade before? And
I think that that's really interesting because James Harden forces
his way out of a second team in roughly as
many years. And then Ben Simmons, we all know how
he's thought of in Philadelphia. That's a complicated situation, but
he he obviously did not make himself well liked with
the way that he sat out this season. Do we
feel like that like that this is the epitome of
(34:44):
two guys who were hated by their own fan bases
being swapped for each other. No, it's not their own
fan bases with Ben Simmons, it is the Sixers fan base.
With Harden, he has been called thinks his entire career.
He's lazy, he does not play defense, he comes to
um training camps larger than people would like. The free
(35:05):
throws annoy people. He's literally been accused of ruining the
game of basketball. So I do think very much that
he's been hated by everyone. That's really not even all
of them either. I like that you mentioned that he
comes to training camp larger than people would like. It's
such a genteel euphemism. Isaac and Dan, what about Ben?
Because I think like I'm a little too close to
it to see how other people outside of Philadelphia feel
(35:27):
about him, Because look, he's a really good player in
a lot of respects. He influences the game in a
lot of positive ways. He's great on the break, he's
a great rebounder and excellent pass or other worldly defender
who can switch one through five. But deciding to take
your ball and go home because people were too mean
to you when I don't think that they were too
mean to you is difficult for Philadelphians too, And I'm
(35:48):
not using this in the way that you think I am,
but process it so like for you guys when you're
watching from afar, like what did you make of Ben? Yeah,
I think that everybody kind of got what they want
it and that sort of sucks, Like it's kind of
a bummer that everyone got that they wanted in this case,
because the our lasting memory of Ben Simmons in Philadelphia
isn't like the All NBA trips and the you know,
(36:10):
near defensive Player of the Year caliber performances. It's him
turtling at the absolute worst time and then like not
giving you some kind of hero's journey return trip, Like
there's the narrative arc of what happened there you were
hoping for is just a straight line into a brick wall.
So he doesn't really go to Brooklyn with any kind
of momentum where people are like excited about this. It's
(36:31):
just like this guy, how did his way out of
one situation? The other guy powdered his way out of
two situations in thirteen months. We know this is a
big deal, but who should we be psyched about in
this context? And we're still gonna need to see Ben
Simmons be the guy we know he we think he
can be, because we didn't see that for the last
series we saw him, and we haven't seen him play
basketball in six months or eight months or whatever it is,
(36:52):
so to be revealed on that for sure. I have
a question if then comes back and he looks like
taller Tony Allen essentially, which is what he was last year,
wouldn't that be enough to fit next to Kyrie and
Katie and that next team to like make it pretty
far in the playoffs. Or does Brooklyn need Ben to
be the Ben Simmons of promise. When you're saying of promise,
(37:16):
do you mean like the fully realized part that Philly
never got. Yeah, Magic Johnson without a jumper. And I
really feel like he's having a Wiggins moment right now
where he gets to take a step back and not
be in the spotlight, not have the expectations. It's going
to play out really well for him, because what is
very rewarding on a team if you can't do shooting
the other two most important things. He's excellent at playmaking
and defense. So my question, you know what I mean,
(37:39):
My my question about all that is just like, is
Ben Simmons gonna be okay with that? Like the last
time we saw him, he did not seem to want
very many parts of high leverage moments with the ball
in his hands. But everything else we know about Ben
Simmons is that he views himself as the point guard,
the number one guy, the guy who should have a
team built around him. Like if this turns into Kyrie
and k D get all the ball handling and shooting
(38:01):
opportunities late in the game, and you're just back in
the dunker spot again, like you are a couple of
playoffs ago. Is Ben Simmons okay with that? And there's
a read on this situation that is, it took all
this sort of drama and headaches and months and months
to get out and get what you wanted, And maybe
that is a time for reflection and sort of a
humbling experience where you figure out again who you supposed
to be. But if you're also like I just waited
(38:23):
and put my foot down until I got what I
wanted and now I'm in this other situation, are you
gonna maybe just think, no, I should be getting what
I want here too, So I'm really fascinated by what
kind of role he sees for himself there and like
how that actually looks in practice, provided we see the
realized version of that team with Kyrie Irving able to play,
which you know TBD, and with Kevin Durant healthy again,
(38:44):
which again we'll see you in a few weeks. But
I think a lot of that's gonna depend on Ben
simmons temperament, and man, if you are banking on something
Ben simmons Is temperament might not be the thing that
you want to be banking on. Yeah, I think the
answer to your question is, I mean, we saw it
in the Toronto Series a couple of years ago, where
you know, if not for Kauai four bounced shot, maybe
the Sixers advanced. But Zach Lowe had asked Ben Simmons
(39:07):
about him being deployed in the dunker spot because they
basically had to take the ball out of his hand,
and they'd have in every single playoff because we saw,
you know what happens to Ben Simmons. He disappears because
he can't shoot and he doesn't want to shoot. And
he said, no, I'm not that guy. I'm not the
guy who's gonna be in the dunker spot. I'm better
than that, so I would be surprised if all of
a sudden he's like, yeah, I'm gonna do all the
little things that need to be done. I'm interested in this.
(39:27):
I'm gonna recuse myself from this. I'm gonna throw it
up to the group because again, I'm a little too
close to this. So I don't think that Sixers fans
really cared about the Nets before this, and I don't
really think that the Nets cared about Sixers fans either, right, So,
but now you have James Harden forcing his way out
and going to the seventi Sixers and Ben Simmons going
to Brooklyn. Does this make it an instant rivalry? I mean,
(39:49):
are we excited about this potential rivalry? I've literally only
met one Nets fan in my entire life, so I
don't know who is bringing the fury that Sixers fans have. Um,
I would say no, because everyone's happy. Like everybody is happy.
The only person who wanted Ben Simmons out of Philly
more than Sixers fans is Ben Simmons, So he's happy.
(40:10):
Sixers fans are happy hard and wanted out. He wasn't
communicating with the team. He wasn't talking to Katie even
before the injury, So I think everyone's happy about this.
I don't necessarily think this has the bones for a rivalry,
but I could be wrong. What about it? Just as
consumers Isaac and Dan of basketball, are you excited to
see these two teams play each other? I mean, Isaac,
(40:31):
you're riding the post Super Bowl high. Is this going
to start really crank you up to another level? Actually? No,
not really no, because the exciting teams, unfortunately are in
the West. At the top of the West, Golden State
and Phoenix. They're the most exciting teams to watch right now,
day in and day out, and even in the East.
(40:51):
I feel like Milwaukee, having won the championship last year,
are still the quality team to beat, and it's not
these newly formed super teams. Now. The one player I
will highlight is going to be Joel Embiid. Dan, you
said earlier he might be the m v P. I
would go as far to say he is the m
v P. A big dude in Denver, my friend, there's
a big dude in Denver. Yeah. Yeah, But the team
(41:11):
is underperforming right, so, like it's really difficult to reward
him again, underperforming is the word. I think performing at
what they can do. They're injured, But I think I
think your point, Isaac is is well taken. Like the
top of the league is still at the top of
the West. But in terms of of I guess like
the storylines that kind of drive everything and the potential
for introducing new passion into it. I don't know that
anybody has associated passion, particularly with the Nets in any
(41:35):
of their iterations since moving to Brooklyn, Like there's been
a lot of attempts to kind of crank them up,
but it hasn't really happened yet. The idea of a
playoff series, Philly Brooklyn playoff series where like Simmons has
to perform in Philly under you know, the brightest lights
in the scrutiny, and Harden having to like address all
of the questions that he's had. Right, Like, the every
question that we have about James Harden always comes back
(41:57):
to what can you do in the playoffs when it matters?
And so far the answers so that have been pretty
lack luster here to say the least. So that's really
interesting to me. Is that enough for a rivalry? I mean,
maybe in the context of an NBA where that this
really aren't a whole lot of rivalries. Players don't stay
with teams very long, Teams don't face each other all
that often. It's tough to do, but it might be
about as good as we get for right now. Like
it's close enough that if that series happens in a
(42:18):
couple of months, the pitch will be kind of feverish.
At that point. I think you guys are way overthinking this.
The answer is, yes, this is gonna be so fun.
I can't. I want to run something past you, guys.
So we had the All Star Draft last week and
Charles Barkley and Lebron James we're talking about James Harden's
health and I want to play that sound for you.
(42:39):
Is he can he? Is? He? Is? He? He hasn't played?
Is he healthy? Who's that? James? He hasn't played? What
happens if he got traded? He's healthy? Now he's missed
the last three with a with a handy And now
we know why Lebron carry a clipboard with right now
(43:00):
it's not hot on that day he played the next game.
I love Charles Barkley alas his prediction is incorrect. The
Sixers announced as we were recording this that Harden is
out through the All Star break. He's going to rehab
his hamstring. He will not play in the All Star Game.
So that's a little bit of a bummer. We're gonna
have to wait a little bit to see James Harden
next to Joel Embiad. But let's talk about actual basketball here.
(43:22):
How do we think that he's going to pair with
Joel Embiad? Because our Sports Illustrated colleague Michael Peena little
lukewarm on this, is not sure how that's gonna work
out when you have two guys who are heavy usage
rate James Harden, as we know, loves the io and
Joel Embiad is having an m v P season. So
is this gonna be good? Or my should I start
getting nervous here? Yeah? I think the broad strokes on
(43:44):
Philly is like you are plugging a guy who, even
in a diminished state as he's been for most of
the season, is still an All Star. You're plugging him
into an empty space essentially in the lineup, or you're
having him replaced Seth Curry, who you know, as you said,
has been awesome as a dribble handoff partner in a
floor space and everything for him B but it's still
not James Harden, you know. And we've talked so many
times with Sixers bloggers and other podcasters, like the guys
(44:06):
from the Right, Turkey Sanchez, about how it seems like
there's a rule where you can never have more than
one guard in Philadelphia who can dribble, pass and shoot.
And now they've got to Tyrese. Maxie has been fantastic
this season, so there's more firepower, more ways to fit
this together, more shooting. And I'm just like, if Embiid
wasn't on board for this and didn't have the kind
of big basketball brain to think about how we can
(44:27):
make it work, then I don't know that it would
have happened in this way. So there's a lot of
problems solving there. I think Doc Rivers will be able
to massage the egos and sort of help figure out.
Please Doc stagger these guys. Please let don't just make
it so that it's all bench lineups when you have
two guys like this, Um Isaac, I'm sorry, I know
that hurts you. It hurts your heart, you know, But uh,
if there's enough will. There will be ways to do it.
(44:49):
It's just it might take some sussing out. It might
take a little while to kind of break the eggs
to figure it all out. Dan, as a Clippers fan,
I wouldn't be too optimistic about Doc Rivers staggering lineups.
I don't think that's within his vocabulary. Yeah, he hates
to do that for some reason. I'm more optimistic than
you guys are. Of course you are. I mean, look, yeah, surprisingly,
I think this is gonna work out great. Uh. Joel
(45:11):
Embiad forever has lacked a guard who can do the
things that James Harden can do, right. I mean, James
Harden is exactly what you in theory would want to
put with Joel Embiad. I mean, somebody who can dribble, pass,
and shoot, as we said, and he's one of the
best to ever do those things. So I'm excited for
Joel Embiad to have a running mate who is commensurate
with his with his ability. I'm also interested Bill and
(45:33):
we talked about this a little bit about how we
think Ben Simmons will pay in Brooklyn because on paper,
you look at it and go should work out great, right,
provided that he does all the things that Ben Simmons
does well and avoids doing the things that he doesn't
do well. But that caveat requires him not to be
the point guard with the ball in his hands at
all times, to be a glue guy. There's an exception
(45:56):
to even that, though. Are they gonna have him run
point when kay he's not playing because as of right now,
Kyrie still can't play at home, so they could There's
a couple of options. They could stick it and have
him be the four, or I've even seen some people
play with the idea of the five the entire time,
or maybe they scoot Patty over. I'm really not sure
(46:18):
that's what I'm interested in. But because of the package
with Seth, I'm excited about this. I just think that
it's going to be away for Ben Samints to not
have all the pressure. You're really excited about Seth Curry.
Oh yeah, I don't think people are high enough on him.
And also, what's the Joe Harris status because that would
be extremely helpful as well, but that would take between
(46:40):
k D Joe Harris. The great mystery, Seth, you don't
need this man to shoot. I love that you keep
bringing up Seth Curry. I don't even think Seth Curry
is is excited about Seth carry as you are. But
I wanted to bring this up because Doc Rivers now
he canceled practice, and somebody on Twitter mentioned that he
canceled practice so he could say goodbye to his grand kids,
which I think was hilarious. But Dr Rivers has now
(47:02):
traded his son in law and his son no compunction
whatsoever about trading family members. Uh. Last one for you guys,
I want to bring this up. March ten, the Nuts
are supposed to play at the Sixers and I'm sure
that the Sixers will have a touching tribute video for
Ben Simmons prepared. My question for you guys, it's gonna
be wild if Ben Simmons plays. Do you think Ben
(47:22):
Simmons plays, Because if he does play, they're gonna have
to preemptively ban everybody who goes to that game for life,
like every Sixers fan is just never going to be
allowed back. But will Ben Simmons play against the Sixers? No,
I don't think so. I think that is exactly the situation.
You don't want to have to have him face before
it matters most. I mean there's an argument to be
(47:43):
made that, like ripping the band aid off and having
it happened before you get into a playoff series. It
makes a lot of sense too. But he made a
choice to not face a lot of that sort of
stuff already, and then he got to leave, got to
go where he wanted to go. I don't think he's
gonna stop making that choice. I don't see it. Yeah,
the heat you'd catch for skipping a game like that
(48:04):
or sitting out or whatever because you're like, have a
hammy or something, the heart and hammy. No one could
see you wink, but I wink for you three, So
I didn't know this wasn't on YouTube. Sorry sorry, um.
The flag that you'd catch from something like that, like, oh,
(48:26):
you can't handle the pressure, you're a baby, you don't
want to face these guys. He's already gotten that. So
it's certainly not a case of him not wanting to
face those accusations. He's definitely already got that, like for months. See,
I'd love to be wrong about it, because I think
the only thing that we've seen in the recent past
it's been like that level of kind of intensity and
(48:47):
vitriol was when Lebron first went back to Cleveland and
that was like nuts. It was the loudest crowd I
ever heard through a TV. Was that Cleveland crowd sort
of responding to him coming back. And then we saw
how Lebron responded in a moment and the heat. It
was like a validation of the choice and that the
heat were amazing and he played fantastic in that game.
I'd love to see how Ben Simmons response to it
(49:08):
on the court. I'm skeptical that we're going to I
think it would be incredible. I can't wait. I'm very
excited about this and the trade in general. Isaac played
me out with a little so Many Sixers theme song.
As we do this, you can hear Haley and her
partner Jordan Ligann's on the Excellent Spinster's podcast. Please listen
and subscribe and always read Dan Devine on the NBA
is the most prolific NBA writer out there. I think
(49:28):
he wrote like seven pieces while we were recording this
pot alone, Haley, Dan and Isaac, you guys are the best.
It is always a good call when we get to talk.
Thank you everybody. Sports illust Weekly is a production of
(50:01):
sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your favorite shows. And for more
of Sports Illustrated It's best stories and podcasts, visit SI
dot com. This episode of Sports Illustrated Weekly was produced
by Alex Kappelman, Cooper McKim and Isaac Lee, who was
(50:22):
also our sound engineer. Our senior producer is Dan Bloom.
Our executive producers are Scott Brody and me John Gonzalez.
Our theme song is by Nolan Schneider. Thanks for listening,
and if you've stuck around this long, we leave you
with this from our conversation with Ben Schwartz. I'll introduce
(50:44):
you guys, and we will run through nineties nostalgia, Nicks,
Beanie babies, and all that ship
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