August 29, 2022 • 22 mins
How do you say goodbye to the GOAT? Serena Williams transcended tennis and changed the game for the better, but John Gonzalez is asking by SI Senior Writer Jon Wertheim what's next after she hangs up the racket? And who's going to come out on to of the Men's and Women's sides in a US Open that seems completely up for grabs?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Before we get started, please rate and review our show.
It helps people find us. On this episode of Sports
Illustrated Weekly, this year's US Open isn't just about tennis.
It's also a farewell to Serena Williams, who announced that
she's retiring after the tournament. S I Senior writer John
(00:20):
Wortheim joins me to discuss Serena's chances on the court,
her impact on sports and pop culture, and her legacy
as we say goodbye to the Goat. I'm your host
John Gonzalez from Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. This
is Sports Illustrated Weekly. John Wortheim, Welcome back to Sports
(00:42):
Illustrated Weekly. Hey, good to be here. Always love having
you on. The very first time we had you on,
we talked about Tom Brady being the goat in his sport.
You're sort of our resident goat whisperer. I want to
talk to you about the US Open in tennis, but
that event will mark a goodbye to the best to
average do it. It will be the end for Serena Williams.
I'm gonna rattle off some stats here, John, twenty three
(01:04):
Grand Slam titles, fourteen Grand Slam doubles, titles with her
sister Venus, and Olympic Golden singles, three Olympic goals and
doubles also with Venus, a record three d and sixty
five matches. Wanted the Major. I could go on and
on and on. John put in perspective how great her
career has been. I have I've whiplash from swiveling my
head and all those numbers. I mean, I think part
(01:26):
of this is like, these numbers are a joke, and
I feel like we rattled them off and they almost
get cheapened because it says, you know, we feel like
we're giving a Wikipedia bio and we never actually. I mean,
it's just incredible what she has done, and everyone sort
of has a favorite number. One of mine is which
is the first major that she won Cali. That was,
(02:02):
um you know, that was a quarter century ago in
a sport where most of the best players once they
hit twenty five, certainly thirty historically haven't been uh particularly
formidable as players. Um No. I mean, I think some
of this in Serena's legacy is about these numbers and
the titles, and see, we don't think of her she's
one of the greatest doubles players. Of all times. He's
(02:23):
one of the greatest American Olympic athletes of all time.
I mean, there are all sorts of dimensions that she
hasn't gotten her do on, But to me, I think
a lot of it too, is just this legacy she
leaves that has nothing to do with statistics and what
she showed that there is no one way to get
to the top of this mountain, and you can resist
convention and you can do things your way, and in
(02:45):
the end, you play twice as long as you were
supposed to in one about ten times as many trophies
as anyone thought you ever would. And I think from
the racial composition of the players in the US open
to the economics of tennis too, I mean, there's so
many ways that she's left embark on the sport that
have nothing I mean, and I won't say nothing, but
(03:05):
they're they're tangentially related to the back of the baseball
card stats. Yeah, I'm really a couple of things that
you brought up there that I want to unpack. But
I'm glad that you mentioned the longevity because you know,
you and I it's been a come a theme whenever
we talk about these these athletes who have gotten older
but keep playing at a high level. Serena's forty shill
bet one in September. It's a grueling sport, John, There's
(03:28):
a lot of wear and tear on your body when
you're running that much. It's really remarkable that she's been
able to play this well for this long. And uh,
you know, we would be remiss if we did not
throw childbirth in there as well being pregnant winning a
Grand Slam title. Now, I've never done either, but I
hear both can be challenging. Well, apparently Serena Williams did
(03:50):
them both at the same time earlier this year. That's right.
She was about eight weeks pregnant when she won the
Australian Open. When when she started, when the Williams sisters started,
you'll notice that they were not They have not spent
a lot of weeks rank number one venus. In particular,
for all their winning, they haven't held the number one
ranking that long, and that's part because of the way
(04:11):
the ranking system is set up. And for years and
years and years there was this complaint and oh yeah
they went a lot, but they don't play a full schedule.
And if Lebron you know, I if Michael Jordan only
played in the playoffs, of course he'd be fresh. And
there was a lot of condemnation in tennis that neither
Venus nor Serena played as many events as people liked.
Of course, there was a lot of naked self interest there.
(04:34):
These were promoters that wanted them to play their events.
This was a tour that was trying to sell sponsorships.
Wouldn't you rather have the best players playing twenty times
and not eleven? And as usual, they were right and
conventional wisdom was wrong, and it's no you know, I
don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of their
peers burned out or ceased playing in their late twenties,
(04:57):
or they retired and re retired. Part of this is
because they were really smart early on in the beginning,
and they didn't overplay and they didn't get burnt out.
I think something that people forget about tennis to a
lot of it, it's physical wear and tear. You know,
you can't take possessions off right. You can't say, hey, coach,
just I want to come off the bench tonight or
I'd like to d h I'm feeling a little sore
(05:18):
but in addition to that, there's no home games. So
I mean anyone that has traveled let's take Jordan for instance. No,
I mean anyone that gets on a plane and you know,
all right, so Serena is not waiting at the hurts
counter like like the rest of us. But still there's
something really grueling about jet lag and time zones and
eating at odd hours, and apart from the physical wear
(05:41):
and tear, I think people sometimes don't realize the wear
and tear that comes with a global workplace where every
single week is an international business trip. You also had mentioned,
you know that she is a mother, she's a black person,
a black woman in a sport that doesn't exactly have
a history of generating either. I don't think John, that
(06:02):
we can undersell her social impact, right, I mean she's
had a massive cultural imprint that goes beyond just tennis, right,
I mean, it's it's global and it's not even sports specific.
She almost transcends all of that. Yeah, I um, I
mean it's it's really it's interesting to me how many people,
you know, you say, oh, I like tennis, so I
cover tennis. It's I always say, it's my guilty pleasure.
(06:25):
And people say, oh my god, I love Serena Williams,
and I'm always amazed how many people have they have
such strong feelings for her, usually overwhelmingly fond. Didn't always
used to be that way. But I think that's another
dimension to the story we can talk about. But um,
a lot of people that they love Serena Williams and
they've never seen her play tennis. They've never seen her
on the court. This is not about four hands and
(06:46):
back hands. It's what she represents. It's what she's overcome.
It's how she dresses, it's how she conducts herself. She
has millions and millions of fans who have never seen
her hit a tennis ball. I I don't think you
have that with many other athletes. I don't think people say, like,
I love Lebron James and it isn't basketball the one
where they play five on five. I mean, there are
so many people that she's won over that have never
(07:07):
seen her go to work. It's all about what she represents.
You hinted at something there that I think I do
want to talk about her popularity now where she has
almost universal support as she's going into retirement, but at
the beginning of the career. As you mentioned, it wasn't
always like that. Took a lot of heat, a lot
of controversy. How did that all change? I mean, I
think it would. It would be naive not to think
(07:28):
that her her winning had a lot to do with it.
And some people are simply front runners and by the
time you win your seventh, nine, tenth major, maybe you
want some people over. But no, I mean, I think
it's one of the aspects of the story. I mean,
so often with athletes, so it's almost with with Bill
Russell for example, or with I mean in tennis, we
see this, you know, Pete Sampras and stephie Graf, and
we didn't know what we had until we were gone,
(07:50):
and boy, if if we could do it again, we
would have had so much more appreciation. That is not
the case here. Um. There was a lot of friction
when Venus and Serena came on the scene. Some of
this was the way they comported themselves, and it was
so institutional bias, and there were a lot of I
was there. There were a lot of microaggressions. I didn't
see a lot of sort of flagrant racism there. There's
(08:12):
the incident in Indian wells and people talk about but
that notwithstanding. To me, it was a lot more subtle
than that, And it was a lot more sort of
coded language and issues that they had to respond to
that other players never would. And in short order, I mean,
I think fairly early on they won, and the critics
shrunk in voice and in number, and you know, I
(08:37):
don't know if we can time stamp it, but pretty
soon this just became this absolute love it. And I
mean the reception Serena Williams is going to get win
or lose at the US Open is going to be
like nothing we've seen a few years ago. I don't
remember when Serena was going for the Grand Slam. Um
she and for you she she didn't get it, but
she she won the first three legs of the Major.
She comes to the US Open, there's a lot of
(08:57):
pressure and in in one of her matches he plays Venus,
drawing some of mats, sewing a little six six to
and it was just absolute sort of celebration of the
(09:17):
sisters and everything they had achieved. And it wasn't always
that way. And I think that, um, you know, one
of the nice things about play until your age forties,
you get your do and you know, some of this
is probably you know, Richard Williams, who was a lightning
rod for controversy, he became less and less prominent. I mean,
some of this was, uh, you know. I I would
(09:37):
say that tennis finally started hugging the Williams sisters, and
they hugged back their Their colleagues were a lot more complimentary.
Venus and Sereno were a lot more social in the
locker room. I mean, this was really kind of a
love story. And you don't always get this in in sports.
You get a lot of boy, people missed the boat
on this or you know, but boy, it's too bad
that athlete had to go through so much because only
(09:58):
in retrospect we really is how extraordinary they were. Midway
through this story, everyone fell in love with Venus and
Serena as as they should have. And what you're left
with is an athlete who I mean, honestly, Serena is
not going to win the US Open. She's almost forty
one years old, as you say, she's won one match
in the last year, and yet she's going to be
(10:19):
the story of this tournament. Yeah, and I'm looking forward
to the send off. She deserves all the flowers that
she'll be given. But you just sort of asked my
next question, what are we looking at here? How long
do you think she'll be around? She faces Donka Covinich,
who's currently ranked number eighty in the world, in the
first round of the US Open. Recent results for Serena
(10:39):
haven't been Serena esked she's gonna go on a little
bit of a run and give herself a good send
off here or or might it be an early bow out.
I mean, I gotta say that the draw gods did
her a favor gotten luck at the US Open, if
nothing else, Uh, that the draw gods did her right.
I mean, it was entirely possible she could have drawn,
and she's on needed right, so she could have drawn
(11:01):
any player in the draw. I mean, Naomi Osaka, she
can I mean, she could have drawn whoever, Coco Goth
that that did not happen. But you know, I mean
in the French Open final, Egish contact, the number one
played Coco Goth, who's sort of the ascending American player.
They're they're combined age is less than Serena Wildt nine
(11:21):
or whatever she you know, in in blade September that
that's a big number, especially for a player who doesn't
come in with a lot of match play, doesn't come
in with a lot of momentum. Again, who's a full
time mother. It's extraordinary what Serena has accomplished. I mean, honestly,
I don't even just keep this between us and don't
put it on like a Potter joke. I mean, honestly,
(11:43):
you sort of kind of hope. Or last time of tennis,
she lost six love and it was to Emirada Kanu,
who won the US Open last year six fol six.
(12:05):
But emm Arata Condue also hasn't won. You know, she
she's sub five hundred this year. So I kind of
hope Serena goes out there and gives gives it a
competitive match. If she wins around her to so much
the better. But we'd all would love to see it happened.
We all know how to write, uh, you know, be
Hollywood movies. The idea that Rena Williams would win this
(12:27):
twenty four major, it's it's kind of I guess fanciful
might be. I mean, it ain't gonna happen. A couple
of rounds would be great. That would make for a
quality B movie anyway. So if it's not gonna be
Serena John, who do we like from the women's side.
That is a great question, because the the women straws
(12:48):
are often open. This is like open open. I mean,
this is a I mean we're coming off a year
also in which a player ranked outside the top hundred
won the previous US Opens. If you ever needed, um,
you know, in any given Sunday, you know, if you
ever needed sort of proved positive that these anyone can
win these things, you need to only go back one year.
I don't know. I mean I think I think Cocoa
(13:09):
Goss got a real chance. That's a perfect the eighteen
year old Cocoa Golf. Her winning is one of these
when not ifs and why not now? Um, but I don't.
I mean it's literally any of forty plem Naomi Osaka
(13:29):
is one twice. Since she's a tremendous player, she doesn't
come in with a lot of momentum. I mean they're
literally any of fifty players have a decent chance to
win this tournament. I kind of like that. I kind
of like the toss up aspect of it and not knowing, uh,
what about on the men's side. I can't believe we're
still talking about this particular issue. But no, vak Djokovic
(13:52):
will miss the US Open because the U S requires
foreign visitors to be vaccinated. Shocker, He's still not He's
not coming. You can address that if you or not.
But handicapped the men's side for US um you know,
I joking it. I would just I just can't get
over this sort of the the framing of this is
active versus passive. I mean, there is one thing he
(14:12):
could do to be eligible, but billions of people have
done worldwide that. You know, every other player in the
top one dred of men's tennis has done. The idea
that they're not letting him play or even I mean
the U S t A has a sort of clumsily
worded press release about you, and unfortunately he won't be
He won't. He has agency, he could have he could
(14:33):
have done something that Billy literally billions of people have
done with no adverse effect, and we wouldn't be having
this conversation. So I think, you know, whatever, he has
his convictions, he's entitled to them. He's not free of
the consequences of those. But I think this framing of
sort of who who has agency here and who does it?
I think is kind of important. But in his absence, Um,
(14:56):
it's remember we're talking about the Wide Open women's draw.
Usually bestro we have three guys and anyone else is
a huge upset. Um. Federer is not playing Rafa Nadal
is but and it has not lost in a major
this year, but he's been injured, and he's played one
match since Wimbledon, and that was a defeat the defending champion,
Daniel Medvedev will be seated number one. I think with
(15:17):
the odds makers he is the favorite, but he's won
one tournament since he won the US Open last year.
I will go with Carlos Alcarez. Uh it's glorious. I'll
cut us wives the rocket into their claim of center court,
whom you can read all about in an upcoming Sports
Illustrated nineteen year old Spaniard. Much like Cocoa Golf, he
(15:39):
will win one of these. It's just a question to
win and why not. Now, I'm glad you that you
brought up Alcaz because as I was thinking about Serena,
you had also rattled off some other big names like
Osaka and we talked about Djokovic and Federer is not
playing and the dolls getting older. Alcros is this interesting
young guy who's coming up along with him. Now that
(16:01):
Serena is is leaving, I mean she she's leaving a
massive hole in tennis and a massive hole in greater
pop culture, right, I mean she, as we mentioned, she
transcends all of this. So who fills that void? Do
you think from tennis? It's a great question because I
think it's something that I think it's something that sport needs.
(16:21):
That Tennis has always depended on personalities and characters and
what they represent. And you know, Andrea Agassi and I
go through the list, and when there has been mere
excellence without that X factor, it hasn't necessarily hunched through.
People want crazy attire, and they want Roger Feeder's elegant,
(16:42):
and they want Andre Agassi's you know, mullet and his
bandanas and his denim shorts. Tennis kind of needs that
in a way that other sports don't. I mean, Naomi
Osaka would be the obvious answer, but she's had a
very very strange year um that has compassed a lot
of winning. I think she's kind of and yeah, I
mean I think I think Alcarraz is really special and
(17:06):
I mean, to me, Coco golf, Like, if if this
whole tennis thing doesn't work out, she has a fallback,
which is like president of the United States. I mean,
she's just she's extraordinary. If she were to win, it
would really do wonders for this sport. But you know,
I mean to tennis has always had this very strange
relationship with personality. But unlike other team sports, you know,
(17:28):
they're no conference standings, right, I mean, there's no it's
it's it's like boxing. I mean, you really sort of
need athletic excellence, but you need something additional. And with Serena,
we are missing both of those in in a big way. Yeah,
we really will be. Uh And as you mentioned, it's
one of those sometimes you don't realize what you have
(17:48):
until it's gone. So she's leaving soon, John, Do we
know what she wants to do next? One thing that
we didn't. I mean, this this was someone who's always
come shrouded in mystery. I mean, so Serena, Oh, what's
the Guild jazz cliche? Like always leave them wanting more?
You never quite I mean she was oh, I don't
say impenetrable, but there was always she She always held back,
(18:10):
and I think that this mystery has served her well competitively.
I think in retrospective probably sort of only added to
her image. But who the hell knows is the answer.
I mean, she she has a she's talked about wanting
to expand her family. She has this investment fund that
that she speaks a lot about. I don't think she
necessarily is going to have a lot to do with.
(18:32):
I mean, there's some some players that's if they've never left.
There's commentating and there's coaching. I don't think we're gonna
see her much in the tennis world, which which is
unfortunately I think she'd be she'd be a great commentator.
I just think that's that's not where her head is now.
And I think part of um, you know, she won't
have a shortage of options, but who knows. I mean,
it's it's easy to see her doing any of a
(18:54):
hundred things. And UM, I think this sort of work
life balance that she wrote about in this this Great
Bogs that would encourage people to read, um sort of
the work work life balance that she's says she struggled
with these last five years, I think is something she'll
have to sort of negotiate in her next step. But
but who knows, is the answer? I mean, I could.
(19:15):
You can see her running a company, and you can
see her living on an island and being a full
time mother. Who knows she's the only tennis player john
man or a woman to win three out of four
Grand Slams six times. You know, we've rattled off at
the beginning of our conversation all of her records and accolades,
(19:39):
which sounds so outside they're almost unbelievable. Are we being
hyperbolic to think that she might be the greatest tennis
player man or a woman, full stop, of all time?
You want me to get really hyperbolic, I'd love to
Why constrict that to tennis? What what she has done
in terms of a chief and in terms of versatility,
(20:02):
I mean, she's one on every surface and every continent
and every day. I mean she's she's one in every
presidential administration from Clinton to Trump. What's the worst thing
you could possibly say about her? She's had a couple
of on court outbursts, She's never been arrested, she's never
out of scandal. She's I mean and then you just
(20:23):
look at and I mean some of this is tennis related, right,
I mean you sort of look at players today and
it's extraordinary. And I'm not just talking about black women.
It's extraordinary. How many have said I never thought I
had a future in this sport, and then I saw
Serena Williams. My parents were in Venezuela and we didn't
have money. But then I saw Serena Williams. I would
take that beyond sports. And again, I just think this
(20:46):
is a story that ages really, really well, and the
objections that may have accompanied her in the beginning and
the nineties are now it would get you fired. I
mean that you get canceled for some of the things
people said and wrote twenty five years ago. The fact
that the second best player of this generation happened to
be her sister, who shared a bed, you know, who
shared a bunk bit. I mean, it's just it's a
(21:08):
crazy story. It will age really well, and I think
I would go so far. I mean, do you find
me a we're playing this this horribly cliche and trite
Mount Rushmore game. I mean, if we're playing this greatest
athlete ever Jordan Ally Blah blah, I mean, I don't
know who are you putting ahead of Serena Williams. It's
(21:29):
a hell of a story. It's not over just yet.
Make sure to read him on SI dot com. Like
Serena and Tennis, he's the goat for s I. John Wortheim,
thank you for this very kind, nice document Owes, Thanks
(21:49):
for listening everybody, and a reminder to please rate and
review the show that helps people find us. Sports Illustrated
Weekly is a production of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
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(22:10):
and podcasts, visit SI dot com. This episode of Sports
Illustrated Weekly was produced by Jordan Rizzieri, Jessica your Mooski,
and Isaac Lee, who was also our sound engineer. Our
senior producers are Dan Bloom and Harry sward Out. Our
executive producers are Scott Brodie and me John Gonzalez. Our
theme song is by Nolan Schneider. And if you've stuck
(22:33):
around this long, we leave you with this. So she's
leaving soon, John, do we know what she wants to
do next, either Crypto or Dispenser who knows, and probably
whatever she wants
Before we get started, please rate and review our show.
It helps people find us. On this episode of Sports
Illustrated Weekly, this year's US Open isn't just about tennis.
It's also a farewell to Serena Williams, who announced that
she's retiring after the tournament. S I Senior writer John
(00:20):
Wortheim joins me to discuss Serena's chances on the court,
her impact on sports and pop culture, and her legacy
as we say goodbye to the Goat. I'm your host
John Gonzalez from Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio. This
is Sports Illustrated Weekly. John Wortheim, Welcome back to Sports
(00:42):
Illustrated Weekly. Hey, good to be here. Always love having
you on. The very first time we had you on,
we talked about Tom Brady being the goat in his sport.
You're sort of our resident goat whisperer. I want to
talk to you about the US Open in tennis, but
that event will mark a goodbye to the best to
average do it. It will be the end for Serena Williams.
I'm gonna rattle off some stats here, John, twenty three
(01:04):
Grand Slam titles, fourteen Grand Slam doubles, titles with her
sister Venus, and Olympic Golden singles, three Olympic goals and
doubles also with Venus, a record three d and sixty
five matches. Wanted the Major. I could go on and
on and on. John put in perspective how great her
career has been. I have I've whiplash from swiveling my
head and all those numbers. I mean, I think part
(01:26):
of this is like, these numbers are a joke, and
I feel like we rattled them off and they almost
get cheapened because it says, you know, we feel like
we're giving a Wikipedia bio and we never actually. I mean,
it's just incredible what she has done, and everyone sort
of has a favorite number. One of mine is which
is the first major that she won Cali. That was,
(02:02):
um you know, that was a quarter century ago in
a sport where most of the best players once they
hit twenty five, certainly thirty historically haven't been uh particularly
formidable as players. Um No. I mean, I think some
of this in Serena's legacy is about these numbers and
the titles, and see, we don't think of her she's
one of the greatest doubles players. Of all times. He's
(02:23):
one of the greatest American Olympic athletes of all time.
I mean, there are all sorts of dimensions that she
hasn't gotten her do on, But to me, I think
a lot of it too, is just this legacy she
leaves that has nothing to do with statistics and what
she showed that there is no one way to get
to the top of this mountain, and you can resist
convention and you can do things your way, and in
(02:45):
the end, you play twice as long as you were
supposed to in one about ten times as many trophies
as anyone thought you ever would. And I think from
the racial composition of the players in the US open
to the economics of tennis too, I mean, there's so
many ways that she's left embark on the sport that
have nothing I mean, and I won't say nothing, but
(03:05):
they're they're tangentially related to the back of the baseball
card stats. Yeah, I'm really a couple of things that
you brought up there that I want to unpack. But
I'm glad that you mentioned the longevity because you know,
you and I it's been a come a theme whenever
we talk about these these athletes who have gotten older
but keep playing at a high level. Serena's forty shill
bet one in September. It's a grueling sport, John, There's
(03:28):
a lot of wear and tear on your body when
you're running that much. It's really remarkable that she's been
able to play this well for this long. And uh,
you know, we would be remiss if we did not
throw childbirth in there as well being pregnant winning a
Grand Slam title. Now, I've never done either, but I
hear both can be challenging. Well, apparently Serena Williams did
(03:50):
them both at the same time earlier this year. That's right.
She was about eight weeks pregnant when she won the
Australian Open. When when she started, when the Williams sisters started,
you'll notice that they were not They have not spent
a lot of weeks rank number one venus. In particular,
for all their winning, they haven't held the number one
ranking that long, and that's part because of the way
(04:11):
the ranking system is set up. And for years and
years and years there was this complaint and oh yeah
they went a lot, but they don't play a full schedule.
And if Lebron you know, I if Michael Jordan only
played in the playoffs, of course he'd be fresh. And
there was a lot of condemnation in tennis that neither
Venus nor Serena played as many events as people liked.
Of course, there was a lot of naked self interest there.
(04:34):
These were promoters that wanted them to play their events.
This was a tour that was trying to sell sponsorships.
Wouldn't you rather have the best players playing twenty times
and not eleven? And as usual, they were right and
conventional wisdom was wrong, and it's no you know, I
don't think it's a coincidence that a lot of their
peers burned out or ceased playing in their late twenties,
(04:57):
or they retired and re retired. Part of this is
because they were really smart early on in the beginning,
and they didn't overplay and they didn't get burnt out.
I think something that people forget about tennis to a
lot of it, it's physical wear and tear. You know,
you can't take possessions off right. You can't say, hey, coach,
just I want to come off the bench tonight or
I'd like to d h I'm feeling a little sore
(05:18):
but in addition to that, there's no home games. So
I mean anyone that has traveled let's take Jordan for instance. No,
I mean anyone that gets on a plane and you know,
all right, so Serena is not waiting at the hurts
counter like like the rest of us. But still there's
something really grueling about jet lag and time zones and
eating at odd hours, and apart from the physical wear
(05:41):
and tear, I think people sometimes don't realize the wear
and tear that comes with a global workplace where every
single week is an international business trip. You also had mentioned,
you know that she is a mother, she's a black person,
a black woman in a sport that doesn't exactly have
a history of generating either. I don't think John, that
(06:02):
we can undersell her social impact, right, I mean she's
had a massive cultural imprint that goes beyond just tennis, right,
I mean, it's it's global and it's not even sports specific.
She almost transcends all of that. Yeah, I um, I
mean it's it's really it's interesting to me how many people,
you know, you say, oh, I like tennis, so I
cover tennis. It's I always say, it's my guilty pleasure.
(06:25):
And people say, oh my god, I love Serena Williams,
and I'm always amazed how many people have they have
such strong feelings for her, usually overwhelmingly fond. Didn't always
used to be that way. But I think that's another
dimension to the story we can talk about. But um,
a lot of people that they love Serena Williams and
they've never seen her play tennis. They've never seen her
on the court. This is not about four hands and
(06:46):
back hands. It's what she represents. It's what she's overcome.
It's how she dresses, it's how she conducts herself. She
has millions and millions of fans who have never seen
her hit a tennis ball. I I don't think you
have that with many other athletes. I don't think people say, like,
I love Lebron James and it isn't basketball the one
where they play five on five. I mean, there are
so many people that she's won over that have never
(07:07):
seen her go to work. It's all about what she represents.
You hinted at something there that I think I do
want to talk about her popularity now where she has
almost universal support as she's going into retirement, but at
the beginning of the career. As you mentioned, it wasn't
always like that. Took a lot of heat, a lot
of controversy. How did that all change? I mean, I
think it would. It would be naive not to think
(07:28):
that her her winning had a lot to do with it.
And some people are simply front runners and by the
time you win your seventh, nine, tenth major, maybe you
want some people over. But no, I mean, I think
it's one of the aspects of the story. I mean,
so often with athletes, so it's almost with with Bill
Russell for example, or with I mean in tennis, we
see this, you know, Pete Sampras and stephie Graf, and
we didn't know what we had until we were gone,
(07:50):
and boy, if if we could do it again, we
would have had so much more appreciation. That is not
the case here. Um. There was a lot of friction
when Venus and Serena came on the scene. Some of
this was the way they comported themselves, and it was
so institutional bias, and there were a lot of I
was there. There were a lot of microaggressions. I didn't
see a lot of sort of flagrant racism there. There's
(08:12):
the incident in Indian wells and people talk about but
that notwithstanding. To me, it was a lot more subtle
than that, And it was a lot more sort of
coded language and issues that they had to respond to
that other players never would. And in short order, I mean,
I think fairly early on they won, and the critics
shrunk in voice and in number, and you know, I
(08:37):
don't know if we can time stamp it, but pretty
soon this just became this absolute love it. And I
mean the reception Serena Williams is going to get win
or lose at the US Open is going to be
like nothing we've seen a few years ago. I don't
remember when Serena was going for the Grand Slam. Um
she and for you she she didn't get it, but
she she won the first three legs of the Major.
She comes to the US Open, there's a lot of
(08:57):
pressure and in in one of her matches he plays Venus,
drawing some of mats, sewing a little six six to
and it was just absolute sort of celebration of the
(09:17):
sisters and everything they had achieved. And it wasn't always
that way. And I think that, um, you know, one
of the nice things about play until your age forties,
you get your do and you know, some of this
is probably you know, Richard Williams, who was a lightning
rod for controversy, he became less and less prominent. I mean,
some of this was, uh, you know. I I would
(09:37):
say that tennis finally started hugging the Williams sisters, and
they hugged back their Their colleagues were a lot more complimentary.
Venus and Sereno were a lot more social in the
locker room. I mean, this was really kind of a
love story. And you don't always get this in in sports.
You get a lot of boy, people missed the boat
on this or you know, but boy, it's too bad
that athlete had to go through so much because only
(09:58):
in retrospect we really is how extraordinary they were. Midway
through this story, everyone fell in love with Venus and
Serena as as they should have. And what you're left
with is an athlete who I mean, honestly, Serena is
not going to win the US Open. She's almost forty
one years old, as you say, she's won one match
in the last year, and yet she's going to be
(10:19):
the story of this tournament. Yeah, and I'm looking forward
to the send off. She deserves all the flowers that
she'll be given. But you just sort of asked my
next question, what are we looking at here? How long
do you think she'll be around? She faces Donka Covinich,
who's currently ranked number eighty in the world, in the
first round of the US Open. Recent results for Serena
(10:39):
haven't been Serena esked she's gonna go on a little
bit of a run and give herself a good send
off here or or might it be an early bow out.
I mean, I gotta say that the draw gods did
her a favor gotten luck at the US Open, if
nothing else, Uh, that the draw gods did her right.
I mean, it was entirely possible she could have drawn,
and she's on needed right, so she could have drawn
(11:01):
any player in the draw. I mean, Naomi Osaka, she
can I mean, she could have drawn whoever, Coco Goth
that that did not happen. But you know, I mean
in the French Open final, Egish contact, the number one
played Coco Goth, who's sort of the ascending American player.
They're they're combined age is less than Serena Wildt nine
(11:21):
or whatever she you know, in in blade September that
that's a big number, especially for a player who doesn't
come in with a lot of match play, doesn't come
in with a lot of momentum. Again, who's a full
time mother. It's extraordinary what Serena has accomplished. I mean, honestly,
I don't even just keep this between us and don't
put it on like a Potter joke. I mean, honestly,
(11:43):
you sort of kind of hope. Or last time of tennis,
she lost six love and it was to Emirada Kanu,
who won the US Open last year six fol six.
(12:05):
But emm Arata Condue also hasn't won. You know, she
she's sub five hundred this year. So I kind of
hope Serena goes out there and gives gives it a
competitive match. If she wins around her to so much
the better. But we'd all would love to see it happened.
We all know how to write, uh, you know, be
Hollywood movies. The idea that Rena Williams would win this
(12:27):
twenty four major, it's it's kind of I guess fanciful
might be. I mean, it ain't gonna happen. A couple
of rounds would be great. That would make for a
quality B movie anyway. So if it's not gonna be
Serena John, who do we like from the women's side.
That is a great question, because the the women straws
(12:48):
are often open. This is like open open. I mean,
this is a I mean we're coming off a year
also in which a player ranked outside the top hundred
won the previous US Opens. If you ever needed, um,
you know, in any given Sunday, you know, if you
ever needed sort of proved positive that these anyone can
win these things, you need to only go back one year.
I don't know. I mean I think I think Cocoa
(13:09):
Goss got a real chance. That's a perfect the eighteen
year old Cocoa Golf. Her winning is one of these
when not ifs and why not now? Um, but I don't.
I mean it's literally any of forty plem Naomi Osaka
(13:29):
is one twice. Since she's a tremendous player, she doesn't
come in with a lot of momentum. I mean they're
literally any of fifty players have a decent chance to
win this tournament. I kind of like that. I kind
of like the toss up aspect of it and not knowing, uh,
what about on the men's side. I can't believe we're
still talking about this particular issue. But no, vak Djokovic
(13:52):
will miss the US Open because the U S requires
foreign visitors to be vaccinated. Shocker, He's still not He's
not coming. You can address that if you or not.
But handicapped the men's side for US um you know,
I joking it. I would just I just can't get
over this sort of the the framing of this is
active versus passive. I mean, there is one thing he
(14:12):
could do to be eligible, but billions of people have
done worldwide that. You know, every other player in the
top one dred of men's tennis has done. The idea
that they're not letting him play or even I mean
the U S t A has a sort of clumsily
worded press release about you, and unfortunately he won't be
He won't. He has agency, he could have he could
(14:33):
have done something that Billy literally billions of people have
done with no adverse effect, and we wouldn't be having
this conversation. So I think, you know, whatever, he has
his convictions, he's entitled to them. He's not free of
the consequences of those. But I think this framing of
sort of who who has agency here and who does it?
I think is kind of important. But in his absence, Um,
(14:56):
it's remember we're talking about the Wide Open women's draw.
Usually bestro we have three guys and anyone else is
a huge upset. Um. Federer is not playing Rafa Nadal
is but and it has not lost in a major
this year, but he's been injured, and he's played one
match since Wimbledon, and that was a defeat the defending champion,
Daniel Medvedev will be seated number one. I think with
(15:17):
the odds makers he is the favorite, but he's won
one tournament since he won the US Open last year.
I will go with Carlos Alcarez. Uh it's glorious. I'll
cut us wives the rocket into their claim of center court,
whom you can read all about in an upcoming Sports
Illustrated nineteen year old Spaniard. Much like Cocoa Golf, he
(15:39):
will win one of these. It's just a question to
win and why not. Now, I'm glad you that you
brought up Alcaz because as I was thinking about Serena,
you had also rattled off some other big names like
Osaka and we talked about Djokovic and Federer is not
playing and the dolls getting older. Alcros is this interesting
young guy who's coming up along with him. Now that
(16:01):
Serena is is leaving, I mean she she's leaving a
massive hole in tennis and a massive hole in greater
pop culture, right, I mean she, as we mentioned, she
transcends all of this. So who fills that void? Do
you think from tennis? It's a great question because I
think it's something that I think it's something that sport needs.
(16:21):
That Tennis has always depended on personalities and characters and
what they represent. And you know, Andrea Agassi and I
go through the list, and when there has been mere
excellence without that X factor, it hasn't necessarily hunched through.
People want crazy attire, and they want Roger Feeder's elegant,
(16:42):
and they want Andre Agassi's you know, mullet and his
bandanas and his denim shorts. Tennis kind of needs that
in a way that other sports don't. I mean, Naomi
Osaka would be the obvious answer, but she's had a
very very strange year um that has compassed a lot
of winning. I think she's kind of and yeah, I
mean I think I think Alcarraz is really special and
(17:06):
I mean, to me, Coco golf, Like, if if this
whole tennis thing doesn't work out, she has a fallback,
which is like president of the United States. I mean,
she's just she's extraordinary. If she were to win, it
would really do wonders for this sport. But you know,
I mean to tennis has always had this very strange
relationship with personality. But unlike other team sports, you know,
(17:28):
they're no conference standings, right, I mean, there's no it's
it's it's like boxing. I mean, you really sort of
need athletic excellence, but you need something additional. And with Serena,
we are missing both of those in in a big way. Yeah,
we really will be. Uh And as you mentioned, it's
one of those sometimes you don't realize what you have
(17:48):
until it's gone. So she's leaving soon, John, Do we
know what she wants to do next? One thing that
we didn't. I mean, this this was someone who's always
come shrouded in mystery. I mean, so Serena, Oh, what's
the Guild jazz cliche? Like always leave them wanting more?
You never quite I mean she was oh, I don't
say impenetrable, but there was always she She always held back,
(18:10):
and I think that this mystery has served her well competitively.
I think in retrospective probably sort of only added to
her image. But who the hell knows is the answer.
I mean, she she has a she's talked about wanting
to expand her family. She has this investment fund that
that she speaks a lot about. I don't think she
necessarily is going to have a lot to do with.
(18:32):
I mean, there's some some players that's if they've never left.
There's commentating and there's coaching. I don't think we're gonna
see her much in the tennis world, which which is
unfortunately I think she'd be she'd be a great commentator.
I just think that's that's not where her head is now.
And I think part of um, you know, she won't
have a shortage of options, but who knows. I mean,
it's it's easy to see her doing any of a
(18:54):
hundred things. And UM, I think this sort of work
life balance that she wrote about in this this Great
Bogs that would encourage people to read, um sort of
the work work life balance that she's says she struggled
with these last five years, I think is something she'll
have to sort of negotiate in her next step. But
but who knows, is the answer? I mean, I could.
(19:15):
You can see her running a company, and you can
see her living on an island and being a full
time mother. Who knows she's the only tennis player john
man or a woman to win three out of four
Grand Slams six times. You know, we've rattled off at
the beginning of our conversation all of her records and accolades,
(19:39):
which sounds so outside they're almost unbelievable. Are we being
hyperbolic to think that she might be the greatest tennis
player man or a woman, full stop, of all time?
You want me to get really hyperbolic, I'd love to
Why constrict that to tennis? What what she has done
in terms of a chief and in terms of versatility,
(20:02):
I mean, she's one on every surface and every continent
and every day. I mean she's she's one in every
presidential administration from Clinton to Trump. What's the worst thing
you could possibly say about her? She's had a couple
of on court outbursts, She's never been arrested, she's never
out of scandal. She's I mean and then you just
(20:23):
look at and I mean some of this is tennis related, right,
I mean you sort of look at players today and
it's extraordinary. And I'm not just talking about black women.
It's extraordinary. How many have said I never thought I
had a future in this sport, and then I saw
Serena Williams. My parents were in Venezuela and we didn't
have money. But then I saw Serena Williams. I would
take that beyond sports. And again, I just think this
(20:46):
is a story that ages really, really well, and the
objections that may have accompanied her in the beginning and
the nineties are now it would get you fired. I
mean that you get canceled for some of the things
people said and wrote twenty five years ago. The fact
that the second best player of this generation happened to
be her sister, who shared a bed, you know, who
shared a bunk bit. I mean, it's just it's a
(21:08):
crazy story. It will age really well, and I think
I would go so far. I mean, do you find
me a we're playing this this horribly cliche and trite
Mount Rushmore game. I mean, if we're playing this greatest
athlete ever Jordan Ally Blah blah, I mean, I don't
know who are you putting ahead of Serena Williams. It's
(21:29):
a hell of a story. It's not over just yet.
Make sure to read him on SI dot com. Like
Serena and Tennis, he's the goat for s I. John Wortheim,
thank you for this very kind, nice document Owes, Thanks
(21:49):
for listening everybody, and a reminder to please rate and
review the show that helps people find us. Sports Illustrated
Weekly is a production of Sports Illustrated and I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your
favorite shows. And for more Sports Illustrated It's best stories
(22:10):
and podcasts, visit SI dot com. This episode of Sports
Illustrated Weekly was produced by Jordan Rizzieri, Jessica your Mooski,
and Isaac Lee, who was also our sound engineer. Our
senior producers are Dan Bloom and Harry sward Out. Our
executive producers are Scott Brodie and me John Gonzalez. Our
theme song is by Nolan Schneider. And if you've stuck
(22:33):
around this long, we leave you with this. So she's
leaving soon, John, do we know what she wants to
do next, either Crypto or Dispenser who knows, and probably
whatever she wants
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