August 22, 2023 • 34 mins
On today’s episode, Jason discusses Joe Montana's assertion that the only way for an NFL quarterback to win games consistently is from the pocket and Steph Curry publicly proclaiming himself as the greatest point guard in NBA history over Magic Johnson.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
This is Straight Fire with Jason McIntyre. What is up
Straight Fire, fam, It's me Jason McIntyre. Straight Fire for Tuesday,
August twenty second. Got some great topics today as we
slowly get to the end of August, we're limping to
the start of the NFL season inside three weeks to play.
(00:31):
College football shockingly starts this weekend. So tomorrow we've got
a great college football guest booked. He came on by demand.
You guys asked for him last year. We gave it
to you. He's good on college football. I'll save you
the name, so we'll keep some suspense for tomorrow. And
no great games this weekend. I saw Notre Dames in action,
but they're playing somebody their favorite heavily over and the
(00:52):
games don't start in earnest until Labor Day weekend. All right,
let's quickly get to We got two topics that I
love today. I'm just give a little warning and advance
the second topic. It's near and dear to my heart
because it's involving Steph Curry, and the other side of
the coin is near and dear to rob GE's heart.
He is a big Laker guy now I'm also a
(01:13):
Laker guy. I'm just wondering it could get testy given
some of the chatter before the podcast listen. Obviously, Rob
and I like each other. I think the topic will
be fun. But we got to start in the NFL
with Joe Montana, who was, by many accounts of the
greatest quarterback in NFL history until Tom Brady took that
mantle from him. I don't know if Brady stole it
(01:34):
with the Seattle Super Bowl where the Seahawks had the
best defense in the league and Brady went the length
of the field twice in the fourth quarter touchdowns. It
might have been that comeback against the Falcons where they
were getting smashed and they pull off an amazing comeback
and win in overtime. But either way, Tom Brady eclipsed
(01:55):
Montana as the greatest quarterback of all time. When I
think Joe Montana, besides the Leonard Marshall hit that pretty
much ended his career in San France and ended up
sending him to the Chiefs, I think just Joe Montana,
like making it look easy, drop back, clean pocket all
the time. Jerry Rice John Taylor, who was the Titan
Brent Selick now he might have been with the Steve
(02:18):
Young teams. Who was that tight end Rob g a lumbering,
large white guy with the Niners back in the day.
Do you know his name?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I do not, but I can look it up while
you're talking.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You look it up. So bottom line is Montana classic
drop back guy. And then they.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Pivoted Dwight and Clark.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Dwight Clark, thank you had the amazing catch against the
Cowboys in the back of the end, zes whit Clark.
But I think that Montana in the pocket quarterback era
right in the eighties, you didn't have your quarterbacks running
back then. The one outlier was like late eighties. I
think maybe in the early nineties Randall Cunningham. He was
just electric, taking crazy hits, elusive and you're like, Wow,
(02:55):
this guy's amazing. And then the Niners ended up pivoting
from Montana to Steve Young, and a little bit after
that you had Michael Vick and then the floodgates kind
of open and you've got this totally diverse set of
skills at quarterback. Cam Newton with Carolina getting to a
Super Bowl and now all the elite quarterbacks in the
league not only win from the pocket, but really are
(03:17):
dangerous because they're mobile, and that's just not something that
happened in the Montana era. Phil Simms drop back in
the court, three step drop, four step drop, boom boom,
go through the progressions carving up these defenses. And Montana
did an interview with USA Today this week promoting something
or other with Joe Burrow, and of course because it
(03:39):
was a promotional thing, you know, they got to hype
up whatever they're promoting. They didn't pay us, so we're
not promoting it. Buried at the end of the story,
literally the last quote in the story, Joe Montana says
quarterbacks that win consistently now win from the pocket. And
(04:00):
it's one of those quotes that might be overlooked by
a lot of people, but anyone who's been following the
league for the last three years and watches trends and
sees what's going on with the stats knows that that's
just not factually correct. The best quarterbacks in the NFL
right now consistently threatened teams with their feet. I don't
(04:20):
know which website had the advanced stat that it was
rob but it was essentially saying that the most effective
play in the NFL. Is not a handoff, it's not
a drop back. It's a quarterback running the football. Now,
obviously there is massive variance with what's gonna be the outcome.
Is the quarterback at a fumble, is he gonna take
(04:41):
a massive hit and go down and get injured. But
more often than not, these defenses are dropping back the
too high shell. We're gonna drop back, and the quarterback, hey,
I'm not gonna make a mistake. I'm gonna go ahead
and take six, seven, eight yards. And then you're setting
yourself up for like a second in three and on
second three, the entire playbook is open, you know. And
(05:03):
that's you want to set yourself up on first down
with a throw so you can set up a lot
of other options on second and short. You don't want
to consistently hand off like Joe Montana did back in
the day to Roger Craig, he gets stuffed on first
down out second and nine, playbook shrinks considerably. Defense has
an idea what's coming. You're most likely not running again
on second now when it's second and eight, second and nine.
(05:25):
So this is just the new advanced stats in the NFL.
This is probably the last five six years now, and
it's another reason running backs are slightly being devalued. I
know a lot of people don't like that I put
up the air quotes for devalue. But if you look
at Patrick Mahomes, you can't just say, well, he's an
outlier jay No, No, he's not. Josh Allen, who has
not been to a Super Bowl but is tremendous and
(05:46):
is a franchise quarterback and is one of the highest
PAI players in the league and as an MVP candidate,
is a massive threat because of the ability to run
the football. Jalen hurts went from a running quarterback to oh,
now I've got aj Brown. I come from the pocket
and I can run. And Jalen Hurtson only won the
MVP last year. Justin Herbert, if you're building a quarterback
in a lab, that's what you want. Six or five
(06:07):
can drop back, make any pass on the field to
any place in the field. He'll make it rain into
a bucket forty yards down the field in the window
that the quarterbacks can't touch it. And oh, by the way,
Justin Herbert is extremely long legged and fast and nimble
and could take hits. Now he did take a hit
last year in the Ribs, remember which kind of rattled
their mid season, So you've got to be careful with that.
(06:28):
But his ability to do both keeps defenses consistently guessing.
You're not losing sleep at night when you're facing an
at least in twenty twenty three, when you're just facing
a pocket quarterback. Now you're like Jay name somebody. The
problem is, I'm looking around the league and almost every
quarterback in the top fifteen has a running element. If
(06:51):
you're really looking at a guy who is mostly pocket,
I would say, and maybe Ron could find a better example,
is Kirk Cousins is the phos pocket quarterback out there? Now?
Are you losing sleep if you're a defensive coordinator over
Kirk Cousins or you more worried about Justin Jefferson going
for twelve and two hundred yards and two touchdowns. I
(07:13):
don't know. People are trying to make the case that
Joe Burrow's extremely pocket. I kind of disagree with that.
You know, you look at some of the playoff games.
He's winning with his legs, some big third downs against
the Bills in that playoff game. He had a great
running game against the Chiefs, in the AFC Tititle game.
I think he had four rushes thirty yards. This is
the guy who was a point guard on his AU
(07:33):
team and was like, maybe gonna be a college basketball
like low d One guy like, I don't consider him
just a pocket quarterback. He's about a scramble. His elusiveness
Joe Burrow is amazing. What's been interesting is Montana's comments
come kind of at the end of an era. Right.
Look at these quarterbacks from the Oos and the teams
(07:57):
I guess if you will, who were almost exclusive pocket
quarterbacks and dominated the league. Eli Manning extremely pocket, Philip
Rivers had no wheels whatsoever. Tom Brady obviously wins a
lot of Super Bowls. Peyton Manning strictly pocket, Drew Brees
strictly pocket a lot of success. The league has changed.
You've got a lot of these quarterbacks now, Rob they
(08:18):
you know, they weren't necessarily the best quarterback. They were
the best maybe athlete in sixth grade. And then you're like, oh, well,
this guy's already got the athletic component. Let's see how
he can read a defense, Let's see what his arm
is like. And that's when the quarterbacks make the jump
to light speed. So in the seven on sevens, it's
like you can see the guy isn't just a pocket quarterback,
(08:40):
He's an athlete. The old adage used to be you
want an alpha back there at quarterback. I think the
you know, leader guy in the huddle. Obviously you still
want that, but I think you want an athlete back
there in an era when defensive ends are as big
and fast, as strong as we've ever seen, you know,
go back and look at the eighties some of those
(09:01):
edge rushers, with the exception of like a Lawrence Taylor,
they were larger guys three hundred pounds. Defensive ends now
like twoin fifty and can bend and get to the
quarterback extremely faster, lighter, faster, and just as strong or stronger.
So you've got to have your quarterback who's nibbling able
to get out of there. So Rob, I would just
totally disagree with Joe Montana. And I know Montana obviously
(09:24):
its one a lot more than I've won at the
quarterback level, you know, and that includes my backyard quarterbacking
back in the day where I was obviously undefeated. But Rob,
I just I disagree with the overall sentiment, and I
think if your quarterback doesn't have a running element, now
you're in trouble. By the way, Trevor Lawrence, remember him
against Clemson against Ohio State. One of the best seventy
(09:44):
yard touchdown runs I've ever seen for a quarterback. That
run gives me goosebumps. I love watching it. And oh,
by the way, the quarterback coming out now, who's said
to be the best running quarterback passing quarterback since like
Andrew Luck or Lawrence is Caleb Williams, who is an
excellent runner. So Rob this feels like, you know, old
man Montana kind of yelling at a cloud.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Yes, and I'm going to say this with all due respect.
Usually when someone says with all due respect, something super
disrespectful is.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
About to follow.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
But everything that Joe Montana told USA today is wrong.
It is no longer correct. That line of thinking has
expired in today's NFL. You brought up a lot of
salient points, and I'm just gonna give people numbers. I
know a lot of our listeners are very analytical. They
want the facts over the feelings, kind of arguing. We
get that a lot in the comments, right, So if
you take out Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson because they've
(10:34):
kind of bridged the gap between the two generations. And
even then, both of those guys are probably more known
for their ability to move than just much of that,
but to throw the football, you know, Russell Wilson obviously
more so. But what made Aaron Rodgers so special in
his prime was his ability to escape, make plays on
the run, fifty yard flick rolling to his right, and
that's what you know, separated him from a lot of
(10:55):
other guys. But if you just look at the quarterbacks
that you would classic as a quote unquote mobile quarterback
in the classic sense of the word, Patrick Mahomes is
forty eight games above five hundred as a starter, Josh
Allen is twenty eight games, Jalen Hurts his twelve games,
Lamar Jackson is twenty nine games, Dak Prescott is twenty
(11:17):
five games above five hundred. On the flip side, if
you look at guys who are considered quote unquote pocket quarterbacks,
and will even include Joe Burrow just to give these
guys some kind of ammunition in the argument, Joe Burrow,
as great as he is, seven games over five hundred,
justin Herbert again, will give them justin Herbert because he
doesn't run all that often. He can, but he doesn't
(11:37):
do that often. One game above five hundred. Kirk Couzin
is the guy you brought up nine games over five hundred,
Matthew Stafford twelve games below five hundred. Like this is
unfortunately or fortunately, depending how you look on it, unfortunate
for Joe Montana. This is the way the league is skewing.
When you say, if you want the team to win consistently,
the quarterback has to play mainly in the pocket, that
(11:59):
is factually incorrect. You're holding on to visions of yourself
and Tom Brady who want a certain way that just
does not apply anymore. Patrick Mahomes, almost by himself, has
shattered the mold of what we thought a quarterback was
supposed to do. If you watch him play, and if
you're a quarterback coach, and we know a few of
them have come on this show and we've talked to
(12:20):
outside of the show, they say, there's so many things
that he does that you coach not to do. The
no look pass, the run and throw a c back
across your body, the jump pass, all these different things
that they say in a classic quarterback sense you are
never supposed to do. He does at a high level,
and that's what makes him special. So for Joe Montana
(12:41):
to say that you have to win from the pocket,
maybe in two thousand and two, maybe even as recent
as you know, twenty and twelve, but in the year
twenty twenty three, that is not true.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, I'm not crapping on pocket quarterbacks. I think we
talked about with the Aid and O'Connell thing. Yesterday. Nick
Foles went to a super Bowl. I'll be that he
just played in the playoffs. He's a pocket guy. Matt
Ryan and Atlanta pocket guy went to the Super Bowl,
obviously Brady, and there was Jared Goff, who is not nimble.
I guess he could escape if need be, but he's
(13:14):
a pocket guy. He went to the Super Bowl with McVeigh,
and of course McVeigh pipots off him to bring in Stafford,
who's got the even better arm and is a little
more elusive. I don't know, would you classify Stafford as
a pocket guy. I think he would be more of
a pocket guy than Joe Burrow. Is that fair?
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
But even still historically says he has a losing record.
Like if you want to say, well, well, if Joe
Montana wants to wants to qualify a statement and say,
if you want to win super Bowls, then you have
to win from the pocket, that's a better argument for
him because if you would just look at historically the
teams that won the Super Bowl, because Tom Brady has
wont so many of them, that like fits your argument.
(13:52):
But if you're just talking about winning football games, the
guys who move around win more in the regular season
than the quote unquote pocket guys.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I mean, I think you're being a hard on Stafford
losing record like he was in Detroit, the worst franchise
in I don't I think the history of the league,
I don't remember the last time they got a playoff win.
And it's not all Stafford's fault, like he was surrounded
by ineptitude. I don't know who it was, but somebody
broke down the defensive DVOA ratings of all the Stafford teams,
and they were all in Detroit. I think they were
(14:20):
like one of them might have maybe won, was top
ten and the rest were all just futrid. And the
year they were top ten, I think called me on it,
and if I'm wrong, that's fine. I think they went
to the playoffs and lost to Dallas, and I remember
because there was a questionable pass interference play or Detroit
was driving in the fourth quarter and there's a questionable
flag that didn't go their way and they ended up losing.
(14:42):
But they didn't have any good defensive teams in Detroit.
And let's not hammer Stafford. Although I don't know if
you've seen any Rams robb Gie Rams reports about the
offensive line already not looking good. I'm worried about Stafford
bro I like him. I think he's got I think
he's got plenty left in the tank. But this could
be a long year for the Rams. All right, let's
(15:03):
get to this NBA topic real quick. And again it
is late August, so we're not doing a ton of NBA.
Yesterday we had obviously the USA basketball Anthony Edwards, Austin Reeves.
And today Steph Curry is in the news, and yes,
some people are hammering him, and that's fine. That's my guy, Curry.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
You know that.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Steph Curry is promoting something. This is what August is about,
promotional stuff. And Gilbert Arenas said, oh, I'll promote it,
so he flew his podcast to wherever Curry was. I
guess northern California and Gilbert Arenas. Just a quick note
on me and Gilbert Arenas. The first NBA jersey I
(15:45):
bought and Warren public was Gilbert Arena's Washington Wizards. Was
it bullets or Wizard?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
It was?
Speaker 2 (15:50):
It was Wizards like twenty fourteen fifteen? Oh no, no, no, no, no,
no no no. This is like twenty two thousand and
five six when he was like the Hibachi before the
gun incident, when he was just a scoring machine. He
was so fun. Big fan of Gilbert reads. Just in
case he hears this or his people send it to him.
I was a huge Gilbert Renas fan. Obviously the gun
(16:12):
thing changed things, and on this pot I gave away
that you were in a jersey. That being said, he
asked Curry who's the greatest point guard of all time?
And Steph Curry, knowing that whatever he says is gonna
go viral, he's I think been asked this question about
like who are the top five shooters or the top
five point guards of all time? And he usually leaves
(16:32):
himself out or top five players, whatever it is. He
leaves himself out. This time, he's like, you know what,
I'm gonna take the bait. And if you watch the video,
Steph Curry's like just like thinking about it, and he's
staring straight forward, and after three or four seconds he
goes me and you just know when he says that
it's it's gonna cause a kerfuffle. He goes on to
(16:56):
explain like within seconds, it's got to be me or magic, right,
And that's obvious. We've been on that early and I
can still take claim to fame. Rob you know this.
Twenty seventeen, your boy went on cow Herd show the
clip they clipped it off. It did monster numbers, and
I said Steph Curry was the second best point guard
of all time. This was way early. I think it was. Yeah,
(17:20):
twenty seventeen, might have been twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen,
but all these people were like, oh, come on, John Stockton,
Isaiah Thomas, Oscar Robert I said, bleep off, guys, it's Curry.
Trust me, or as my son likes to say trust,
he doesn't say trust me, he just says trust. So
I've been early on this, and I will also admit, yes,
Curry's my favorite player of all time. Before that, it
(17:42):
was Magic Johnson. Asked my parents anytime I was in
a basketball league, I demanded, begged for Jersey thirty two.
I thought I was magic. I wasn't newsflast. I was
not Magic Johnson, and he was my favorite player. I
had like the Lakers pennant on my wall. I guess
they did penance for NBA TA whatever. I had like
Magic Johnson poster either trading cards. I was a magic guy.
(18:07):
We've discussed this a lot. Who's the best point guard career?
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Magic?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And Curry saying himself has rob gy'all worked into a lather.
And I'm just gonna say, Gilbert Aarenas made a silly
argument about when I go to the playground and when
I go to AAU games, everybody's emulating Steph Curry, gil Bro,
what are you doing? Like that has nothing to do
with who the greatest failure of all time is? Like
(18:32):
nobody emulates Michael Jordan at the playground, nobody emulates Shack.
You can't. You can only emulate Curry because he shoots
a billion three pointers from deep. Ultimately, this is gonna
come down to how do I phrase this. This is
gonna come down to awards and accolades, and it's gonna
come down to a numbers game, and people are gonna say, well,
(18:57):
Magic has him in titles five to four, has him
in an MVPs three to two. Magic had been finals
MVPs three to one. Where's Curry better? And I will
just quickly add, if you're doing it that way, you're
forgetting something massive. When it comes to Magic Johnson, he
(19:18):
was drafted onto a team with one of the top
four players in the history of the sport, Kareem abdul Jabbar,
because of some draft luck wizardry. I still don't know
how this happened. A few years later, they end up
getting James Worthy in the draft a top was he
top three or four pick, might have been number two overall?
I don't even know, but he was an elite pick.
(19:40):
So you're telling me Magic Johnson, Kareem abdul Jabbar, and
James Worthy were the nucleus of a team that wrecked
the eighties, and now all of a sudden, Magic's getting
all the accolades for five titles. He did win Oh
oh wait, no, he didn't. He didn't win a title
(20:01):
without Jabbar interesting. I remember Michael Thompson was there, and
I don't know if Eldon Campbell was in the Magic
or that might have been like the post HIV Magic
where Magic came back for like six games or whatever.
So Magic has zero titles without Jabbar. His playoff resume
after Kream Abdul Jabbar retired was swept by the Detroit Pistons.
(20:24):
That was a series. I think Magic at Byren Scott
got hurt. They lost in the second round, and then
they lost in the finals to the Bulls, and then
Michael Magic was done. I also looked at the MVPs.
This is maybe only interesting to me. Nineteen ninety Magic
won the MVP after Jabbar had left. So Magic, because
(20:44):
Jabbar leaves Magic soaking up more accolades, more attention, more points,
more everything, Magic accumulates an MVP award. When Charles Barkley
led the league in first place votes for the MVP,
Magic had more second and third. I would have to
do more digging to find out why people would vote
Barkley one but not two and three. And then in
(21:07):
nineteen eighty nine it was a battle of Magic and Jordan,
and Magic won out. Jordan, of course, this is before this.
That was the year I think the final year Jordan
got stuffed in by the Pistons. So if you take
that stuff into account, like oh, teammates, I think it's
much much closer than you would just on on who's
winning that. Now, if you want to look at the numbers,
(21:29):
like who's got more points, well, obviously Curry. Who's got
more threes, well obviously Curry. Morris is obviously magic, he's
six nine, He's gonna have more rebounds. And that's where
it gets a little wonky. What's interesting is a question
Rob that I don't know if there's an answer to
on how many of those Lakers teams was Magic Johnson
(21:53):
the best player? Because Worthy got Finals MVP one year.
I believe it was eighty eighty at a triple double
in Game seven. Jabbar obviously got a finals MVP. I
think maybe a regular season MVP. But outside of a
window where Kevin Durant showed up in Golden State and
they won two titles, Sef Curry unequivocally was the best
(22:15):
player on all those Warriors.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Teams, all of them.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Like Andrew Wiggins had a couple of games, but it
was Curry and from that vantage point and factoring in
Curry's size, you know, six ' three below the rim
in an era of freakish athletes versus six nine. And
I think Curry has a strong case for himself despite
(22:38):
not having the accolades, the same way Lebron for me
is the goat over Jordan despite not having six rings
and blah blah blah blah blah. The defense has rested.
Rob Go ahead and tear it to shreds. I know
you're champing at the bit.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Look, all I'm gonna say is, before I get into
the meat of the argument, is you keep letting that
one time that you went to the gym doing a
super set and Steph Curry walked up behind you gave
you a spot, and You're like, this guy is the
greatest thing since slice bread. He will now be my
favorite player of all time. Look, Steph Curry is great
and and and I don't want to make it seem
(23:14):
like I'm disrespecting Steph Curry. I have him like borderline top.
I think maybe like top ten or twelve, if I
would have really break it out like Top twelve.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
By the way, No, no, not yet.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I mean he is his story is still being written.
He has a little bit more work to do, And
everything you said about Steph Curry is accurate, right, He's
the greatest shooter of all time. Extra points for basically
building a dynasty out of thin air, because that Golden
State Warriors team historically.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Is just not a great franchise.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I mean the fact that they still hang on to
the we believe Warriors, which I believe won one playoff
series and like that's like they're claim to fame and
all these guys are on TV and podcast now because
of it. Like that's what he resurrected as so he
gets extra points for.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
That, of course.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
But as much as you don't want to talk about
the counting stats, when you're discussing players of this caliber,
you have to nitpick, and fortunately for me, you don't
have to nitpick very hard to determine that Magic Johnson
is still leaps and bounds ahead of Steph Curry all time.
One more championship, two more finals, MVP, one more regular
(24:25):
season MVP, five more all NBA First teams, three more
All Star appearances. So the gap between Steph Curry and
Magic Johnson is basically like another Hall of Fame career
it's like Paul Pierce. Like you added Paul Pierce's career
to Steph Curry, then maybe you get to Magic Johnson.
And then if you look at just the raw numbers,
(24:45):
which I know this is kind of boring for listeners,
but outside of points where Steph Curry's head by about
four thousand, Magic hasn't been and rebounds, assists, steals, blocks,
and they've played only like twenty games different.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I think it's less than that well, depending regular season,
in playoff, yeah, playoffs, think factors injuries early in his career.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Exactly, and and and Magic's career was cut short due
to AIDS. So we can only imagine if Steph Curry's
healthy in the beginning, what his accolades look like. We
can also only imagine if Magic never gets HIV, how
many more all nbas, how many more cracks at the Apple?
Does he get to win an NBA championship. So both
of these guys are all time greats. It's just something
(25:27):
that has bothered me going back now a couple of years,
that it has become more prevalent with social media. Everybody
likes to think that what they see now is better
than anything that ever existed before, and that might be
true in some instances because of technology, and you know, bigger, faster, stronger,
and I get all of that, But that doesn't mean
(25:47):
you can just go ahead and disrespect the guys that
came before you because you prefer this style of play
or the way this guy does things because you brought
it up, Gilbert of Reenas is whole argument in favor
of Steph Curry over Magic Johnson, which I'm glad you
pointed out with stupid was well, I see more guys
at the park and AAU play like Steph than Magic
(26:08):
like because more guys play like Joel Embiid than they
do like Shaq. That that means Shack's not better than
Joel Embiid. No, it's just, you know, it's easier to
duplicate that style of play because Shaq and Magic have
freakish athleticism and size for their position, like that shouldn't
(26:29):
be held against them. And so this is a roundabout
way again of me saying Steph Curry's great is nowhere
close to Magic Johnson nowhere close.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
So the all NBA thing, the all NBA thing was interesting,
five different all NBA. I'm trying to think, who are
the point guards that are getting all NBA over Curry
in the last decade.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
In the Black world, didn't get first team if Lukadancic
has been running.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Through it pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah, he's putting one ridiculous stats. That's yeah, that's interesting.
And I know people love to say Magic eight in
the Jordan era and the Bird era. That's fine.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
That's Steph eight in the Lebron era, so that yeah,
that counts for him too.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, the Arenas didn't have much of an argument. And
this is a very vague question because I don't know
that there's like a concrete answer. But Rob, taking into
by the way, the Lakers season two of that winning
time just started last night, I recorded, I haven't seen it.
Taking into account what Magic and Bird did in the
(27:41):
eighties for the NBA and what Curry's impact has been
on the league and basketball as a whole in the
last fifteen years, who has had a bigger impact on basketball,
not just the NBA basketball in their career Because I
think most people would think Magic initially, but if you
look at Curry, Oh, I don't even think it's close, dude.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
It's it's really tough because it's whether you value the
globalization of the game, and you know, getting it on
television the way Magic john'son Larry Bird did, and then
Steph Curry just fundamentally changing the way people play basketball. Well,
and it's just it's different. So it's kind of way
you prefer.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Well, it's the globalization is more dream team and I
think that was technically Jordan's team. Magic was on it,
but I would say getting the NBA on TV, getting
it on the map Magic Johnson hands down. But it's again,
I know people aren't gonna like putting Curry in the
magic discussion, but the best thing to do ten years
(28:44):
from now, Curry's been removed from the league for ten years,
does magic And is does this discussion look different when
you look at post career because Curry is still in it.
People are not gonna want to give him credit. Oh
is you know a story is still being written, But
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
It's absolutely gonna be different because Steph Curry, even in
his advantage age and he's one of those guys whose
game is aging gracefully because of how while he shoots,
how while he keeps himself in condition. I don't if
you saw the videos on social media, like Luka Doncez
tried to do one of those Steph Curry workouts and
it looked like me and you out there trying to
(29:20):
do one of the Steph like he's just bent over.
He can't bounce the ball anymore like he was.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
He was done.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
And Steph Curry is gonna add at least two to
three more all NBA. I don't know if they'll be
first team, but it'll definitely add at least two to
three more all NBA teams. He's gonna be in the
championship mix as long as he wants to be. I
think in Golden State, and he's always going to be.
To me in the NBA Mount Rushmore because of what
he's done for the NBA and the way it's played,
(29:46):
it's just.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Rushmore.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
If he is, it's him and Bird together, I would
say yes. So I would say yes. So.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
At thirty two years old, Curry averaged a league leading
thirty two points per game, shot forty eight, forty two,
ninety one at thirty two. At thirty two, Magic Johnson
wasn't even in the league, right, Wasn't he done at
thirty one?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Right? But that's now fair compared.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
It's not fair, But I'm just saying the stuff Curry's
doing fine. How about this thirty four years old? Last year,
Curry averaged twenty nine points a game at thirty four.
That's one of the highest marks of anyone that age. Ever,
it's like Karl Malone, Michael Jordan, oh, Steph Curry, Like,
centers aren't doing that, point guards aren't doing that. I
don't know if Lucas gonna be doing that at thirty four.
(30:34):
For him to average twenty nine, you know, it's not
like he's even going down. I don't think Curry, if anything,
he's at the plateau and he's just coasting. Like it's
crazy what he's doing at this age. And I don't
know how many more max years of superstardom does he
have left one two?
Speaker 1 (30:53):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
I mean, nobody thought Brady would be playing at forty
five and winning a Super Bowl in his mid forties, Like,
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Oh yeah, I mean, it's weird to say this, but
he and Lebron James are very similar in that it
seems like they can be All Star caliber players until
they just decide they don't want to be anymore. Because
of the like Lebron Thankfully, because the way his body is,
he's able to transform from being a guy who plays
(31:22):
on the wing to a guy who basically just plays
at the rim. That's going to be what he does now,
Steph Curry. So long as his ankles hold up, which
they have now for over a decade, I don't see
any signs of him slowing down. So to your point,
ten years from now, he's going to have more accolades
to put on his resume. That could make this a much,
(31:42):
in my opinion, a much closer conversation than it is
right now here in the middle.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Of August twel I guess, I mean, I guess. To
wrap it up, I would say, you know, if you ask,
if you ask fifty people who are over the age
of forty, I think most would say no. If you
ask fifty people who were under the age of say
thirty five, I bet most would say, Steph Curry, this
(32:07):
is gonna be a complicated one because it's close when
you look at that. Now you look at those counting stats.
Where it gets real tricky, Rob is Let's say the
Warriors pivot and get off Clay and add another guy
and win another title. Okay, I think the same people
(32:27):
who are saying, oh, Lebron only played with stars are
gonna be like, whoa, whoa, woll Curry only tied Magic
because they added, let's just say, Polo bank Caro. It's
not him, he's not whatever, but a star. That's the
only reason. And he had Kevin Durant. But wait a minute,
Magic Johnson had Kareem Abdul Jabbar and James Worthy for
his entire prime. James Worthy is a top thirty player
(32:49):
all time? Is that too generous?
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Definitely in there.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, Jabbar is top five by everybody, anybody with a clue. Now,
I mean like Magic had the I can't think of
anyone who played on more stack teams than Magic Johnson.
And I don't think the answer is Lebron. I think
Magic played on more stack teams than anybody. Lebron never
played for them.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
That's a good I never thought of it that way,
but it's he's up there for sure. So I don't
think he ever played with the team that didn't that
wasn't loaded.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Lebronlayed Wade his career, right, Lebron played with Wade, who's
the top twenty guy all time, right, Yes, okay, played
with Chris Bosh. I don't think Chris Bosh is in
James Worthy territory.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I'm sorry people.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
James Worthy was a Finals MVP with a triple double
in game seven. Okay, Bosh is not there. It was Boston.
James was Bosh top seventy five.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I don't think so, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, he's not. Okay, So then Lebron goes to play
with Kyrie. Let's slow our role on Kyrie freaking Irving. Okay,
it's not top fifty. I don't even know if he
stops seventy five? And who's the other who's the third guy? Oh,
Kevin Love? Stop Kevin Love's not top fifty, he's not.
So then Lebron goes plays with ad Is he is
he a top fifty all time? I don't know.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
He might finish his career.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Fine, fine, if he's not top forty. I mean, you say,
who's had a better career, James Worthy or Anthony Davis.
And again, James Worthy played with stacked teams. Adies played
with Drew Holliday and guys in New Orleans, Like, I mean,
Anthony Davis didn't win a title with Kentucky like by himself. Well, no,
he had a good team. I'm not buying something.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Well, you know who else escapes this criticism which I
hate to like spin it this way, Larry Bird needs
to be if we were gonna say the loaded team,
you know argument, Larry Bird always played on stacked teams
and Michail if you just that decade was Hall of
Fame roster versus Hall of Fame roster, and then just
going at it and then oh, by the way, Isaiah
(34:45):
Thomas's pistons come in and went to.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah, and oh by the way, like twenty four teams
in that league were garbage.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Oh wait a minute, you're saying eighties basketball wasn't loaded. Interesting,
That's another topic for another day. We'll close it on that.
We college football tomorrow. We'll talk to you that
The volume.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
This is Straight Fire with Jason McIntyre. What is up
Straight Fire, fam, It's me Jason McIntyre. Straight Fire for Tuesday,
August twenty second. Got some great topics today as we
slowly get to the end of August, we're limping to
the start of the NFL season inside three weeks to play.
(00:31):
College football shockingly starts this weekend. So tomorrow we've got
a great college football guest booked. He came on by demand.
You guys asked for him last year. We gave it
to you. He's good on college football. I'll save you
the name, so we'll keep some suspense for tomorrow. And
no great games this weekend. I saw Notre Dames in action,
but they're playing somebody their favorite heavily over and the
(00:52):
games don't start in earnest until Labor Day weekend. All right,
let's quickly get to We got two topics that I
love today. I'm just give a little warning and advance
the second topic. It's near and dear to my heart
because it's involving Steph Curry, and the other side of
the coin is near and dear to rob GE's heart.
He is a big Laker guy now I'm also a
(01:13):
Laker guy. I'm just wondering it could get testy given
some of the chatter before the podcast listen. Obviously, Rob
and I like each other. I think the topic will
be fun. But we got to start in the NFL
with Joe Montana, who was, by many accounts of the
greatest quarterback in NFL history until Tom Brady took that
mantle from him. I don't know if Brady stole it
(01:34):
with the Seattle Super Bowl where the Seahawks had the
best defense in the league and Brady went the length
of the field twice in the fourth quarter touchdowns. It
might have been that comeback against the Falcons where they
were getting smashed and they pull off an amazing comeback
and win in overtime. But either way, Tom Brady eclipsed
(01:55):
Montana as the greatest quarterback of all time. When I
think Joe Montana, besides the Leonard Marshall hit that pretty
much ended his career in San France and ended up
sending him to the Chiefs, I think just Joe Montana,
like making it look easy, drop back, clean pocket all
the time. Jerry Rice John Taylor, who was the Titan
Brent Selick now he might have been with the Steve
(02:18):
Young teams. Who was that tight end Rob g a lumbering,
large white guy with the Niners back in the day.
Do you know his name?
Speaker 1 (02:27):
I do not, but I can look it up while
you're talking.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
You look it up. So bottom line is Montana classic
drop back guy. And then they.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Pivoted Dwight and Clark.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Dwight Clark, thank you had the amazing catch against the
Cowboys in the back of the end, zes whit Clark.
But I think that Montana in the pocket quarterback era
right in the eighties, you didn't have your quarterbacks running
back then. The one outlier was like late eighties. I
think maybe in the early nineties Randall Cunningham. He was
just electric, taking crazy hits, elusive and you're like, Wow,
(02:55):
this guy's amazing. And then the Niners ended up pivoting
from Montana to Steve Young, and a little bit after
that you had Michael Vick and then the floodgates kind
of open and you've got this totally diverse set of
skills at quarterback. Cam Newton with Carolina getting to a
Super Bowl and now all the elite quarterbacks in the
league not only win from the pocket, but really are
(03:17):
dangerous because they're mobile, and that's just not something that
happened in the Montana era. Phil Simms drop back in
the court, three step drop, four step drop, boom boom,
go through the progressions carving up these defenses. And Montana
did an interview with USA Today this week promoting something
or other with Joe Burrow, and of course because it
(03:39):
was a promotional thing, you know, they got to hype
up whatever they're promoting. They didn't pay us, so we're
not promoting it. Buried at the end of the story,
literally the last quote in the story, Joe Montana says
quarterbacks that win consistently now win from the pocket. And
(04:00):
it's one of those quotes that might be overlooked by
a lot of people, but anyone who's been following the
league for the last three years and watches trends and
sees what's going on with the stats knows that that's
just not factually correct. The best quarterbacks in the NFL
right now consistently threatened teams with their feet. I don't
(04:20):
know which website had the advanced stat that it was
rob but it was essentially saying that the most effective
play in the NFL. Is not a handoff, it's not
a drop back. It's a quarterback running the football. Now,
obviously there is massive variance with what's gonna be the outcome.
Is the quarterback at a fumble, is he gonna take
(04:41):
a massive hit and go down and get injured. But
more often than not, these defenses are dropping back the
too high shell. We're gonna drop back, and the quarterback, hey,
I'm not gonna make a mistake. I'm gonna go ahead
and take six, seven, eight yards. And then you're setting
yourself up for like a second in three and on
second three, the entire playbook is open, you know. And
(05:03):
that's you want to set yourself up on first down
with a throw so you can set up a lot
of other options on second and short. You don't want
to consistently hand off like Joe Montana did back in
the day to Roger Craig, he gets stuffed on first
down out second and nine, playbook shrinks considerably. Defense has
an idea what's coming. You're most likely not running again
on second now when it's second and eight, second and nine.
(05:25):
So this is just the new advanced stats in the NFL.
This is probably the last five six years now, and
it's another reason running backs are slightly being devalued. I
know a lot of people don't like that I put
up the air quotes for devalue. But if you look
at Patrick Mahomes, you can't just say, well, he's an
outlier jay No, No, he's not. Josh Allen, who has
not been to a Super Bowl but is tremendous and
(05:46):
is a franchise quarterback and is one of the highest
PAI players in the league and as an MVP candidate,
is a massive threat because of the ability to run
the football. Jalen hurts went from a running quarterback to oh,
now I've got aj Brown. I come from the pocket
and I can run. And Jalen Hurtson only won the
MVP last year. Justin Herbert, if you're building a quarterback
in a lab, that's what you want. Six or five
(06:07):
can drop back, make any pass on the field to
any place in the field. He'll make it rain into
a bucket forty yards down the field in the window
that the quarterbacks can't touch it. And oh, by the way,
Justin Herbert is extremely long legged and fast and nimble
and could take hits. Now he did take a hit
last year in the Ribs, remember which kind of rattled
their mid season, So you've got to be careful with that.
(06:28):
But his ability to do both keeps defenses consistently guessing.
You're not losing sleep at night when you're facing an
at least in twenty twenty three, when you're just facing
a pocket quarterback. Now you're like Jay name somebody. The
problem is, I'm looking around the league and almost every
quarterback in the top fifteen has a running element. If
(06:51):
you're really looking at a guy who is mostly pocket,
I would say, and maybe Ron could find a better example,
is Kirk Cousins is the phos pocket quarterback out there? Now?
Are you losing sleep if you're a defensive coordinator over
Kirk Cousins or you more worried about Justin Jefferson going
for twelve and two hundred yards and two touchdowns. I
(07:13):
don't know. People are trying to make the case that
Joe Burrow's extremely pocket. I kind of disagree with that.
You know, you look at some of the playoff games.
He's winning with his legs, some big third downs against
the Bills in that playoff game. He had a great
running game against the Chiefs, in the AFC Tititle game.
I think he had four rushes thirty yards. This is
the guy who was a point guard on his AU
(07:33):
team and was like, maybe gonna be a college basketball
like low d One guy like, I don't consider him
just a pocket quarterback. He's about a scramble. His elusiveness
Joe Burrow is amazing. What's been interesting is Montana's comments
come kind of at the end of an era. Right.
Look at these quarterbacks from the Oos and the teams
(07:57):
I guess if you will, who were almost exclusive pocket
quarterbacks and dominated the league. Eli Manning extremely pocket, Philip
Rivers had no wheels whatsoever. Tom Brady obviously wins a
lot of Super Bowls. Peyton Manning strictly pocket, Drew Brees
strictly pocket a lot of success. The league has changed.
You've got a lot of these quarterbacks now, Rob they
(08:18):
you know, they weren't necessarily the best quarterback. They were
the best maybe athlete in sixth grade. And then you're like, oh, well,
this guy's already got the athletic component. Let's see how
he can read a defense, Let's see what his arm
is like. And that's when the quarterbacks make the jump
to light speed. So in the seven on sevens, it's
like you can see the guy isn't just a pocket quarterback,
(08:40):
He's an athlete. The old adage used to be you
want an alpha back there at quarterback. I think the
you know, leader guy in the huddle. Obviously you still
want that, but I think you want an athlete back
there in an era when defensive ends are as big
and fast, as strong as we've ever seen, you know,
go back and look at the eighties some of those
(09:01):
edge rushers, with the exception of like a Lawrence Taylor,
they were larger guys three hundred pounds. Defensive ends now
like twoin fifty and can bend and get to the
quarterback extremely faster, lighter, faster, and just as strong or stronger.
So you've got to have your quarterback who's nibbling able
to get out of there. So Rob, I would just
totally disagree with Joe Montana. And I know Montana obviously
(09:24):
its one a lot more than I've won at the
quarterback level, you know, and that includes my backyard quarterbacking
back in the day where I was obviously undefeated. But Rob,
I just I disagree with the overall sentiment, and I
think if your quarterback doesn't have a running element, now
you're in trouble. By the way, Trevor Lawrence, remember him
against Clemson against Ohio State. One of the best seventy
(09:44):
yard touchdown runs I've ever seen for a quarterback. That
run gives me goosebumps. I love watching it. And oh,
by the way, the quarterback coming out now, who's said
to be the best running quarterback passing quarterback since like
Andrew Luck or Lawrence is Caleb Williams, who is an
excellent runner. So Rob this feels like, you know, old
man Montana kind of yelling at a cloud.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Yes, and I'm going to say this with all due respect.
Usually when someone says with all due respect, something super
disrespectful is.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
About to follow.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
But everything that Joe Montana told USA today is wrong.
It is no longer correct. That line of thinking has
expired in today's NFL. You brought up a lot of
salient points, and I'm just gonna give people numbers. I
know a lot of our listeners are very analytical. They
want the facts over the feelings, kind of arguing. We
get that a lot in the comments, right, So if
you take out Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson because they've
(10:34):
kind of bridged the gap between the two generations. And
even then, both of those guys are probably more known
for their ability to move than just much of that,
but to throw the football, you know, Russell Wilson obviously
more so. But what made Aaron Rodgers so special in
his prime was his ability to escape, make plays on
the run, fifty yard flick rolling to his right, and
that's what you know, separated him from a lot of
(10:55):
other guys. But if you just look at the quarterbacks
that you would classic as a quote unquote mobile quarterback
in the classic sense of the word, Patrick Mahomes is
forty eight games above five hundred as a starter, Josh
Allen is twenty eight games, Jalen Hurts his twelve games,
Lamar Jackson is twenty nine games, Dak Prescott is twenty
(11:17):
five games above five hundred. On the flip side, if
you look at guys who are considered quote unquote pocket quarterbacks,
and will even include Joe Burrow just to give these
guys some kind of ammunition in the argument, Joe Burrow,
as great as he is, seven games over five hundred,
justin Herbert again, will give them justin Herbert because he
doesn't run all that often. He can, but he doesn't
(11:37):
do that often. One game above five hundred. Kirk Couzin
is the guy you brought up nine games over five hundred,
Matthew Stafford twelve games below five hundred. Like this is
unfortunately or fortunately, depending how you look on it, unfortunate
for Joe Montana. This is the way the league is skewing.
When you say, if you want the team to win consistently,
the quarterback has to play mainly in the pocket, that
(11:59):
is factually incorrect. You're holding on to visions of yourself
and Tom Brady who want a certain way that just
does not apply anymore. Patrick Mahomes, almost by himself, has
shattered the mold of what we thought a quarterback was
supposed to do. If you watch him play, and if
you're a quarterback coach, and we know a few of
them have come on this show and we've talked to
(12:20):
outside of the show, they say, there's so many things
that he does that you coach not to do. The
no look pass, the run and throw a c back
across your body, the jump pass, all these different things
that they say in a classic quarterback sense you are
never supposed to do. He does at a high level,
and that's what makes him special. So for Joe Montana
(12:41):
to say that you have to win from the pocket,
maybe in two thousand and two, maybe even as recent
as you know, twenty and twelve, but in the year
twenty twenty three, that is not true.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
Yeah, I'm not crapping on pocket quarterbacks. I think we
talked about with the Aid and O'Connell thing. Yesterday. Nick
Foles went to a super Bowl. I'll be that he
just played in the playoffs. He's a pocket guy. Matt
Ryan and Atlanta pocket guy went to the Super Bowl,
obviously Brady, and there was Jared Goff, who is not nimble.
I guess he could escape if need be, but he's
(13:14):
a pocket guy. He went to the Super Bowl with McVeigh,
and of course McVeigh pipots off him to bring in Stafford,
who's got the even better arm and is a little
more elusive. I don't know, would you classify Stafford as
a pocket guy. I think he would be more of
a pocket guy than Joe Burrow. Is that fair?
Speaker 1 (13:30):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (13:30):
But even still historically says he has a losing record.
Like if you want to say, well, well, if Joe
Montana wants to wants to qualify a statement and say,
if you want to win super Bowls, then you have
to win from the pocket, that's a better argument for
him because if you would just look at historically the
teams that won the Super Bowl, because Tom Brady has
wont so many of them, that like fits your argument.
(13:52):
But if you're just talking about winning football games, the
guys who move around win more in the regular season
than the quote unquote pocket guys.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
I mean, I think you're being a hard on Stafford
losing record like he was in Detroit, the worst franchise
in I don't I think the history of the league,
I don't remember the last time they got a playoff win.
And it's not all Stafford's fault, like he was surrounded
by ineptitude. I don't know who it was, but somebody
broke down the defensive DVOA ratings of all the Stafford teams,
and they were all in Detroit. I think they were
(14:20):
like one of them might have maybe won, was top
ten and the rest were all just futrid. And the
year they were top ten, I think called me on it,
and if I'm wrong, that's fine. I think they went
to the playoffs and lost to Dallas, and I remember
because there was a questionable pass interference play or Detroit
was driving in the fourth quarter and there's a questionable
flag that didn't go their way and they ended up losing.
(14:42):
But they didn't have any good defensive teams in Detroit.
And let's not hammer Stafford. Although I don't know if
you've seen any Rams robb Gie Rams reports about the
offensive line already not looking good. I'm worried about Stafford
bro I like him. I think he's got I think
he's got plenty left in the tank. But this could
be a long year for the Rams. All right, let's
(15:03):
get to this NBA topic real quick. And again it
is late August, so we're not doing a ton of NBA.
Yesterday we had obviously the USA basketball Anthony Edwards, Austin Reeves.
And today Steph Curry is in the news, and yes,
some people are hammering him, and that's fine. That's my guy, Curry.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
You know that.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Steph Curry is promoting something. This is what August is about,
promotional stuff. And Gilbert Arenas said, oh, I'll promote it,
so he flew his podcast to wherever Curry was. I
guess northern California and Gilbert Arenas. Just a quick note
on me and Gilbert Arenas. The first NBA jersey I
(15:45):
bought and Warren public was Gilbert Arena's Washington Wizards. Was
it bullets or Wizard?
Speaker 3 (15:50):
It was?
Speaker 2 (15:50):
It was Wizards like twenty fourteen fifteen? Oh no, no, no, no, no,
no no no. This is like twenty two thousand and
five six when he was like the Hibachi before the
gun incident, when he was just a scoring machine. He
was so fun. Big fan of Gilbert reads. Just in
case he hears this or his people send it to him.
I was a huge Gilbert Renas fan. Obviously the gun
(16:12):
thing changed things, and on this pot I gave away
that you were in a jersey. That being said, he
asked Curry who's the greatest point guard of all time?
And Steph Curry, knowing that whatever he says is gonna
go viral, he's I think been asked this question about
like who are the top five shooters or the top
five point guards of all time? And he usually leaves
(16:32):
himself out or top five players, whatever it is. He
leaves himself out. This time, he's like, you know what,
I'm gonna take the bait. And if you watch the video,
Steph Curry's like just like thinking about it, and he's
staring straight forward, and after three or four seconds he
goes me and you just know when he says that
it's it's gonna cause a kerfuffle. He goes on to
(16:56):
explain like within seconds, it's got to be me or magic, right,
And that's obvious. We've been on that early and I
can still take claim to fame. Rob you know this.
Twenty seventeen, your boy went on cow Herd show the
clip they clipped it off. It did monster numbers, and
I said Steph Curry was the second best point guard
of all time. This was way early. I think it was. Yeah,
(17:20):
twenty seventeen, might have been twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen,
but all these people were like, oh, come on, John Stockton,
Isaiah Thomas, Oscar Robert I said, bleep off, guys, it's Curry.
Trust me, or as my son likes to say trust,
he doesn't say trust me, he just says trust. So
I've been early on this, and I will also admit, yes,
Curry's my favorite player of all time. Before that, it
(17:42):
was Magic Johnson. Asked my parents anytime I was in
a basketball league, I demanded, begged for Jersey thirty two.
I thought I was magic. I wasn't newsflast. I was
not Magic Johnson, and he was my favorite player. I
had like the Lakers pennant on my wall. I guess
they did penance for NBA TA whatever. I had like
Magic Johnson poster either trading cards. I was a magic guy.
(18:07):
We've discussed this a lot. Who's the best point guard career?
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Magic?
Speaker 2 (18:11):
And Curry saying himself has rob gy'all worked into a lather.
And I'm just gonna say, Gilbert Aarenas made a silly
argument about when I go to the playground and when
I go to AAU games, everybody's emulating Steph Curry, gil Bro,
what are you doing? Like that has nothing to do
with who the greatest failure of all time is? Like
(18:32):
nobody emulates Michael Jordan at the playground, nobody emulates Shack.
You can't. You can only emulate Curry because he shoots
a billion three pointers from deep. Ultimately, this is gonna
come down to how do I phrase this. This is
gonna come down to awards and accolades, and it's gonna
come down to a numbers game, and people are gonna say, well,
(18:57):
Magic has him in titles five to four, has him
in an MVPs three to two. Magic had been finals
MVPs three to one. Where's Curry better? And I will
just quickly add, if you're doing it that way, you're
forgetting something massive. When it comes to Magic Johnson, he
(19:18):
was drafted onto a team with one of the top
four players in the history of the sport, Kareem abdul Jabbar,
because of some draft luck wizardry. I still don't know
how this happened. A few years later, they end up
getting James Worthy in the draft a top was he
top three or four pick, might have been number two overall?
I don't even know, but he was an elite pick.
(19:40):
So you're telling me Magic Johnson, Kareem abdul Jabbar, and
James Worthy were the nucleus of a team that wrecked
the eighties, and now all of a sudden, Magic's getting
all the accolades for five titles. He did win Oh
oh wait, no, he didn't. He didn't win a title
(20:01):
without Jabbar interesting. I remember Michael Thompson was there, and
I don't know if Eldon Campbell was in the Magic
or that might have been like the post HIV Magic
where Magic came back for like six games or whatever.
So Magic has zero titles without Jabbar. His playoff resume
after Kream Abdul Jabbar retired was swept by the Detroit Pistons.
(20:24):
That was a series. I think Magic at Byren Scott
got hurt. They lost in the second round, and then
they lost in the finals to the Bulls, and then
Michael Magic was done. I also looked at the MVPs.
This is maybe only interesting to me. Nineteen ninety Magic
won the MVP after Jabbar had left. So Magic, because
(20:44):
Jabbar leaves Magic soaking up more accolades, more attention, more points,
more everything, Magic accumulates an MVP award. When Charles Barkley
led the league in first place votes for the MVP,
Magic had more second and third. I would have to
do more digging to find out why people would vote
Barkley one but not two and three. And then in
(21:07):
nineteen eighty nine it was a battle of Magic and Jordan,
and Magic won out. Jordan, of course, this is before this.
That was the year I think the final year Jordan
got stuffed in by the Pistons. So if you take
that stuff into account, like oh, teammates, I think it's
much much closer than you would just on on who's
winning that. Now, if you want to look at the numbers,
(21:29):
like who's got more points, well, obviously Curry. Who's got
more threes, well obviously Curry. Morris is obviously magic, he's
six nine, He's gonna have more rebounds. And that's where
it gets a little wonky. What's interesting is a question
Rob that I don't know if there's an answer to
on how many of those Lakers teams was Magic Johnson
(21:53):
the best player? Because Worthy got Finals MVP one year.
I believe it was eighty eighty at a triple double
in Game seven. Jabbar obviously got a finals MVP. I
think maybe a regular season MVP. But outside of a
window where Kevin Durant showed up in Golden State and
they won two titles, Sef Curry unequivocally was the best
(22:15):
player on all those Warriors.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Teams, all of them.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
Like Andrew Wiggins had a couple of games, but it
was Curry and from that vantage point and factoring in
Curry's size, you know, six ' three below the rim
in an era of freakish athletes versus six nine. And
I think Curry has a strong case for himself despite
(22:38):
not having the accolades, the same way Lebron for me
is the goat over Jordan despite not having six rings
and blah blah blah blah blah. The defense has rested.
Rob Go ahead and tear it to shreds. I know
you're champing at the bit.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Look, all I'm gonna say is, before I get into
the meat of the argument, is you keep letting that
one time that you went to the gym doing a
super set and Steph Curry walked up behind you gave
you a spot, and You're like, this guy is the
greatest thing since slice bread. He will now be my
favorite player of all time. Look, Steph Curry is great
and and and I don't want to make it seem
(23:14):
like I'm disrespecting Steph Curry. I have him like borderline top.
I think maybe like top ten or twelve, if I
would have really break it out like Top twelve.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
By the way, No, no, not yet.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
I mean he is his story is still being written.
He has a little bit more work to do, And
everything you said about Steph Curry is accurate, right, He's
the greatest shooter of all time. Extra points for basically
building a dynasty out of thin air, because that Golden
State Warriors team historically.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Is just not a great franchise.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
I mean the fact that they still hang on to
the we believe Warriors, which I believe won one playoff
series and like that's like they're claim to fame and
all these guys are on TV and podcast now because
of it. Like that's what he resurrected as so he
gets extra points for.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
That, of course.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
But as much as you don't want to talk about
the counting stats, when you're discussing players of this caliber,
you have to nitpick, and fortunately for me, you don't
have to nitpick very hard to determine that Magic Johnson
is still leaps and bounds ahead of Steph Curry all time.
One more championship, two more finals, MVP, one more regular
(24:25):
season MVP, five more all NBA First teams, three more
All Star appearances. So the gap between Steph Curry and
Magic Johnson is basically like another Hall of Fame career
it's like Paul Pierce. Like you added Paul Pierce's career
to Steph Curry, then maybe you get to Magic Johnson.
And then if you look at just the raw numbers,
(24:45):
which I know this is kind of boring for listeners,
but outside of points where Steph Curry's head by about
four thousand, Magic hasn't been and rebounds, assists, steals, blocks,
and they've played only like twenty games different.
Speaker 2 (24:57):
I think it's less than that well, depending regular season,
in playoff, yeah, playoffs, think factors injuries early in his career.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Exactly, and and and Magic's career was cut short due
to AIDS. So we can only imagine if Steph Curry's
healthy in the beginning, what his accolades look like. We
can also only imagine if Magic never gets HIV, how
many more all nbas, how many more cracks at the Apple?
Does he get to win an NBA championship. So both
of these guys are all time greats. It's just something
(25:27):
that has bothered me going back now a couple of years,
that it has become more prevalent with social media. Everybody
likes to think that what they see now is better
than anything that ever existed before, and that might be
true in some instances because of technology, and you know, bigger, faster, stronger,
and I get all of that, But that doesn't mean
(25:47):
you can just go ahead and disrespect the guys that
came before you because you prefer this style of play
or the way this guy does things because you brought
it up, Gilbert of Reenas is whole argument in favor
of Steph Curry over Magic Johnson, which I'm glad you
pointed out with stupid was well, I see more guys
at the park and AAU play like Steph than Magic
(26:08):
like because more guys play like Joel Embiid than they
do like Shaq. That that means Shack's not better than
Joel Embiid. No, it's just, you know, it's easier to
duplicate that style of play because Shaq and Magic have
freakish athleticism and size for their position, like that shouldn't
(26:29):
be held against them. And so this is a roundabout
way again of me saying Steph Curry's great is nowhere
close to Magic Johnson nowhere close.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
So the all NBA thing, the all NBA thing was interesting,
five different all NBA. I'm trying to think, who are
the point guards that are getting all NBA over Curry
in the last decade.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
In the Black world, didn't get first team if Lukadancic
has been running.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Through it pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (26:57):
Yeah, he's putting one ridiculous stats. That's yeah, that's interesting.
And I know people love to say Magic eight in
the Jordan era and the Bird era. That's fine.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
That's Steph eight in the Lebron era, so that yeah,
that counts for him too.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Yeah, the Arenas didn't have much of an argument. And
this is a very vague question because I don't know
that there's like a concrete answer. But Rob, taking into
by the way, the Lakers season two of that winning
time just started last night, I recorded, I haven't seen it.
Taking into account what Magic and Bird did in the
(27:41):
eighties for the NBA and what Curry's impact has been
on the league and basketball as a whole in the
last fifteen years, who has had a bigger impact on basketball,
not just the NBA basketball in their career Because I
think most people would think Magic initially, but if you
look at Curry, Oh, I don't even think it's close, dude.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
It's it's really tough because it's whether you value the
globalization of the game, and you know, getting it on
television the way Magic john'son Larry Bird did, and then
Steph Curry just fundamentally changing the way people play basketball. Well,
and it's just it's different. So it's kind of way
you prefer.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Well, it's the globalization is more dream team and I
think that was technically Jordan's team. Magic was on it,
but I would say getting the NBA on TV, getting
it on the map Magic Johnson hands down. But it's again,
I know people aren't gonna like putting Curry in the
magic discussion, but the best thing to do ten years
(28:44):
from now, Curry's been removed from the league for ten years,
does magic And is does this discussion look different when
you look at post career because Curry is still in it.
People are not gonna want to give him credit. Oh
is you know a story is still being written, But
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
It's absolutely gonna be different because Steph Curry, even in
his advantage age and he's one of those guys whose
game is aging gracefully because of how while he shoots,
how while he keeps himself in condition. I don't if
you saw the videos on social media, like Luka Doncez
tried to do one of those Steph Curry workouts and
it looked like me and you out there trying to
(29:20):
do one of the Steph like he's just bent over.
He can't bounce the ball anymore like he was.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
He was done.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
And Steph Curry is gonna add at least two to
three more all NBA. I don't know if they'll be
first team, but it'll definitely add at least two to
three more all NBA teams. He's gonna be in the
championship mix as long as he wants to be. I
think in Golden State, and he's always going to be.
To me in the NBA Mount Rushmore because of what
he's done for the NBA and the way it's played,
(29:46):
it's just.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
Rushmore.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
If he is, it's him and Bird together, I would
say yes. So I would say yes. So.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
At thirty two years old, Curry averaged a league leading
thirty two points per game, shot forty eight, forty two,
ninety one at thirty two. At thirty two, Magic Johnson
wasn't even in the league, right, Wasn't he done at
thirty one?
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Right? But that's now fair compared.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
It's not fair, But I'm just saying the stuff Curry's
doing fine. How about this thirty four years old? Last year,
Curry averaged twenty nine points a game at thirty four.
That's one of the highest marks of anyone that age. Ever,
it's like Karl Malone, Michael Jordan, oh, Steph Curry, Like,
centers aren't doing that, point guards aren't doing that. I
don't know if Lucas gonna be doing that at thirty four.
(30:34):
For him to average twenty nine, you know, it's not
like he's even going down. I don't think Curry, if anything,
he's at the plateau and he's just coasting. Like it's
crazy what he's doing at this age. And I don't
know how many more max years of superstardom does he
have left one two?
Speaker 1 (30:53):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
I mean, nobody thought Brady would be playing at forty
five and winning a Super Bowl in his mid forties, Like,
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (31:00):
Oh yeah, I mean, it's weird to say this, but
he and Lebron James are very similar in that it
seems like they can be All Star caliber players until
they just decide they don't want to be anymore. Because
of the like Lebron Thankfully, because the way his body is,
he's able to transform from being a guy who plays
(31:22):
on the wing to a guy who basically just plays
at the rim. That's going to be what he does now,
Steph Curry. So long as his ankles hold up, which
they have now for over a decade, I don't see
any signs of him slowing down. So to your point,
ten years from now, he's going to have more accolades
to put on his resume. That could make this a much,
(31:42):
in my opinion, a much closer conversation than it is
right now here in the middle.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Of August twel I guess, I mean, I guess. To
wrap it up, I would say, you know, if you ask,
if you ask fifty people who are over the age
of forty, I think most would say no. If you
ask fifty people who were under the age of say
thirty five, I bet most would say, Steph Curry, this
(32:07):
is gonna be a complicated one because it's close when
you look at that. Now you look at those counting stats.
Where it gets real tricky, Rob is Let's say the
Warriors pivot and get off Clay and add another guy
and win another title. Okay, I think the same people
(32:27):
who are saying, oh, Lebron only played with stars are
gonna be like, whoa, whoa, woll Curry only tied Magic
because they added, let's just say, Polo bank Caro. It's
not him, he's not whatever, but a star. That's the
only reason. And he had Kevin Durant. But wait a minute,
Magic Johnson had Kareem Abdul Jabbar and James Worthy for
his entire prime. James Worthy is a top thirty player
(32:49):
all time? Is that too generous?
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Definitely in there.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Yeah, Jabbar is top five by everybody, anybody with a clue. Now,
I mean like Magic had the I can't think of
anyone who played on more stack teams than Magic Johnson.
And I don't think the answer is Lebron. I think
Magic played on more stack teams than anybody. Lebron never
played for them.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
That's a good I never thought of it that way,
but it's he's up there for sure. So I don't
think he ever played with the team that didn't that
wasn't loaded.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Lebronlayed Wade his career, right, Lebron played with Wade, who's
the top twenty guy all time, right, Yes, okay, played
with Chris Bosh. I don't think Chris Bosh is in
James Worthy territory.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
I'm sorry people.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
James Worthy was a Finals MVP with a triple double
in game seven. Okay, Bosh is not there. It was Boston.
James was Bosh top seventy five.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
I don't think so, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, he's not. Okay, So then Lebron goes to play
with Kyrie. Let's slow our role on Kyrie freaking Irving. Okay,
it's not top fifty. I don't even know if he
stops seventy five? And who's the other who's the third guy? Oh,
Kevin Love? Stop Kevin Love's not top fifty, he's not.
So then Lebron goes plays with ad Is he is
he a top fifty all time? I don't know.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
He might finish his career.
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Fine, fine, if he's not top forty. I mean, you say,
who's had a better career, James Worthy or Anthony Davis.
And again, James Worthy played with stacked teams. Adies played
with Drew Holliday and guys in New Orleans, Like, I mean,
Anthony Davis didn't win a title with Kentucky like by himself. Well, no,
he had a good team. I'm not buying something.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Well, you know who else escapes this criticism which I
hate to like spin it this way, Larry Bird needs
to be if we were gonna say the loaded team,
you know argument, Larry Bird always played on stacked teams
and Michail if you just that decade was Hall of
Fame roster versus Hall of Fame roster, and then just
going at it and then oh, by the way, Isaiah
(34:45):
Thomas's pistons come in and went to.
Speaker 2 (34:46):
Yeah, and oh by the way, like twenty four teams
in that league were garbage.
Speaker 3 (34:49):
Right.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
Oh wait a minute, you're saying eighties basketball wasn't loaded. Interesting,
That's another topic for another day. We'll close it on that.
We college football tomorrow. We'll talk to you that
Host
Jason McIntyre
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