"A Dress That's Just A Long Oxford Shirt" w/ Jenny Hagel

We're back to bicoastal recordings and feeling MIXED about it. Luckily, this week we have Jenny Hagel on to make us feel calmer with her wise thoughts on following your heart, lesbian fashion influence, and what it means when you wear a dress that's just a long oxford shirt. Plus, we get into local college culture, a tortoise vs hare binary, and the psychology behind posting a picture of your kid with an emoji over their face. And remember: wear whatever you want, as long as it's purposeful!!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Who do you who? This is a quick announcement to
say that we Sam Taggart and George Severs are going
on a stand up tour. That's right, a stand up tour,
no podcasting allowed this summer and fall.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
It's called Sam and George stand Up Tour. It rhymes
kind of. And we're going to Chicago, Philly, DC, Boston, Toronto,
San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Los Angeles.

Speaker 1 (00:25):
And maybe more locations TBD TV. Let's just say we're
looking into it. And sometimes that has worked for us
in the past, and sometimes it hasn't.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
But folks come see us split an hour stand up
and we're so excited to see you.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
We're so excited. And you can get tickets at linktree
dot com slash stradio lab. That's linktree dot com, slash
stradio lab.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Enjoy the app podcast starts. Now, what's up everyone? You

(01:10):
are listening to Stradio lab bi coastally of course. This time.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
This is the first main feed episode where we are
recording us two married.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Men, two married men. We went Buddha Judge mode. We
are we have done Buddha Judge mode for good. Our
Edge is found dead in.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
A dich is over. We are political centrists and we
are ready to make moderate change very slowly over the
next sixty five years. We don't like this new generation.

Speaker 2 (01:47):
Yeah, we think what they're doing it's all backwards. What
they're up to all backwards. Whatever happened to tradition, whatever
happened to you know, respecting each other.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
This podcast is mostly about respecting your elders, and also
the differences between New York and La.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
George, I want to kick it off and say, I'm
feeling such an insane New York City fomo.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
And usually that's what I wanted to talk to you about,
because I know you are.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
It's crazy. It's like not right that I'm not there
right now. I feel like I'm like at war and
everyone at home is like moving on.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
So just for everyone who's listening, because this is going
to come out in a couple of weeks. We are
recording the day after Zoran's upset victory that I of
course predicted would not happen on record, and on this
very podcast Patreon, I said, I said, why aren't your
coalescing around Brad Lander, Like we need someone who appeals
to the average New Yorker. We are you know we're

(02:48):
being overly optimistic with this young upstart and hie on
my face?

Speaker 2 (02:54):
Yeah, the egg is dripping down your face as we see.

Speaker 1 (02:57):
Is it egg on my face? Not there on my face?

Speaker 2 (02:59):
Well you can get a little bit of both. You're
getting a whole slew of foods thrown at your face.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
That's right, I'm high on my face in the way
that people you know, the gay activist through pies on.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Well, what's her name?

Speaker 1 (03:10):
What's her name?

Speaker 2 (03:11):
We know her, that lady from that lady, that lady
that from the past.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Okay, so you are you are feeling foma for New York?
How's Karen Bass?

Speaker 2 (03:21):
Oh, it's just not fair. I'm to go from to
go from. Also the wedding, which for those listening, we
you know, we were talking about.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
Just get married.

Speaker 2 (03:33):
I just got married this weekend in New York, in
New York City, you know, surrounded by loved ones, and
it is just it feels like I'm feeling a double
whammy of like, wait, what is going on? Why am
I here? And on top of it all, my job
just ended, and which is why I was out here,
and now I have no real reason to be out

(03:55):
here except.

Speaker 1 (03:57):
That I Los Angeles for you move Los Angeles for
a job, very good job, the job ended. You came
back to New York and got married, and then New
York had this historic election. They are calling it the
most the biggest, the most shocking upset in modern New
York City electoral politics history. And now you're back in

(04:20):
LA you are unemployed, no offense, and you are watching
from afar as we are celebrating on the streets. Yeah,
you have had I want to say, Chosa, famous Zillennial
politician was wearing the same shirt I was wearing to
your wedding while canvassing for zoron yesterday, which I think

(04:42):
actually really locked it for the Democratic Party.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
Oh, it is just not right. And honestly, I've lived
my whole life sort of in a slow and steady
you know, in the tortoise hair binary. I'm always tortoise,
and I'm feeling like, is tortoise that's the wrong identity
for this moment. Oh do you need to go?

Speaker 1 (05:04):
I want to bring in our guests because I think
I actually really want to talk about whether we are
in a tortoise era or a hair era, because it's
actually very confusing and especially it's confusing post Trump. So
please welcome our dear friend coming from a different part
of Brooklyn than me, but from New York nonetheless, No, no,
you know, sorry Sam, Jenny Hegel.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
Hi, how are you guys so good?

Speaker 1 (05:28):
How are we are so good? I mean, I'm amazing
because I'm in New York City.

Speaker 3 (05:33):
You and I are riding the wave of a socialist revolution.

Speaker 1 (05:37):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (05:38):
We literally just got back from waving flags on a
barricade like in lame is like New York City flags.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
That's right. We're both in the same kind of like
a radical pollocule. And we are on the streets of
Park Slope and Brooklyn Heights and we are marching and
we are winning.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
Yes, I on the way home saw a rat hugging
a pigeon. This is just a really banner time for
New York and I feel bad for anyone who's missing it.

Speaker 1 (06:04):
The pigeon actually cross endorsed one another, and that's the
reason they could bring bring it back home.

Speaker 3 (06:10):
They did, but it was very cool. Yeah. Also, two
bags of garbage cross endorsed each other, yes, which.

Speaker 2 (06:17):
Is really amazing.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
You know, one of those bags of garbage actually has
really problematic views. I heard. I heard that she actually
supported Cuoma in the previous election.

Speaker 2 (06:27):
Well, you know, we have to let people grow and
learn and change as well.

Speaker 1 (06:32):
So, Jenny, do you think we're living in a hair
or in a tortoise world?

Speaker 3 (06:37):
That's a great question. I think it depends if you
are a Republican or Democrat. I think Republicans are really
all systems go, all their dreams are coming true, their
overturning laws right and left. They're electing people who were
I don't know, born three weeks ago. Really, I think
it's full speed ahead for them. And I think Democrats
cannot get moving. They cann't get anything.

Speaker 1 (06:57):
Yeah, the Republicans are actually electing people that were conceived
three weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (07:01):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:02):
Interestingly, I feel like Democrats and also I feel like
democrats spirits are broken. I feel like we have all
we've had just so many soul crushing losses over the
last several years. We've had a few, like really harp
losses where we thought they was in the bag and
it didn't happen. And so I think Democrats do not
know how to think or feel. And I feel like

(07:22):
Democrats don't even know how to hope. I know when
I'm with the polls, and I don't love voting this way.
But when I went to the polls for this mayoral primary,
I was voting based on what I thought could conceivably
happen and not what my dreams were.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Yes, I think that there's something that happens with Democrats,
which is they have been betrayed by every institution, and
yet they want in their hearts to trust institutions, so
they can't go full conspiratorial, whereas Republicans, it's like if
they're failed by institutions, they're like, oh, perfect, I'm QAnon,
I love it.

Speaker 3 (07:54):
It's exactly right, It's exactly right. Democrats can't figure out
why they can't win the game when they are the
people like the game is rigged. Yes, But then they're like,
if you just follow the rules, yes, exactly in the game,
and you're like, what are you doing?

Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (08:07):
And they are stuck in this cycle and their ideology
is like inherently paradoxical.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
Yes.

Speaker 2 (08:14):
Do you live your life Jenny in more of a
hair or a tortoise way, because I do feel I'm
like kind of sick of I'm like today I'm wishing
I could just be like, fuck it, it's a huge mistake.
I'm ordering a moving van and I'm out of here.
And I have never made a mistake like that in
my life. It's like not built into me.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
Why would it be a mistake for you to move?

Speaker 2 (08:36):
Great question, that's an amazing question because it feels it
feels reckless, like it's just like such a big decision
to make suddenly that like isn't I mean I would
I would land fine, But it would be like, am
I did I move here? Was it a waste to
come here at all? Like like I gave up my apartment?

Speaker 1 (08:57):
It would be a decision you are making solely because
because of your feelings. Yeah, and it's difficult to explain rationally.

Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, here's what I'll say. And what I'm saying is
some advice a therapist said to me years ago. But
I'm passing it along to you for free, because I
was trying to deal with a question similarly about what
city to move to after a job ended and I
had moved to a city I had never had any
intention of living in solely for a job, and I

(09:26):
wanted to go to the next city based on like
I had friends there, I was dating somebody there. But
I was like, I feel like the right career thing
is for me to move to LA. And this therapist goes, well,
you made your last move based solely on work. Why
aren't you allowed to make your next move based solely
on feelings?

Speaker 1 (09:42):
WHOA that is eerily extremely specific to the problems.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah, I'm a big believer of like, Look, you'd make
choices for work, but you're not at work every minute
of the day. When work is done, you step outside
and you have a life. And if your life is
not in a city that you love and feel connected to,
I don't.

Speaker 1 (10:03):
And were those cities for you La and New York
or were they different ones?

Speaker 3 (10:07):
I weirdly La was only part of the equation. I
kind of I cut my comedy teeth in Chicago and
lived there for ten years, and right around the time,
I was thinking, you know what, I should probably choose
New York ger Ella and get out of here. I mean,
I love Chicago, but I could kind of run out
of jobs. Yeah, yeah, and to move to a bigger city.
I got offered a job at performing on the main
stage at Second City Detroit, which is a theater that

(10:28):
once existed, And I'm sure, it doesn't sound fancy if
you're not somebody who's familiar with like the Chicago scene
or Second City. But it was like definitely a step
up for me where I was. It was a paid gig,
it was an equity theater gig, and I was really excited.
You get to write your own material and then perform
it in front of audiences every night. And so I
took that job. And I had never had any intention

(10:51):
of living in the Detroit area. I moved there for
a little over a year, made an incredible group of friends,
had an incredible creative experience, and then but you know,
after like a year, in a few months, I was like, Okay,
I think it's time we did what we came here
to do. Let's kind of get on with the next
chapter of our career. And I could either go to
New York or LA, or I could go back to Chicago,

(11:11):
and everybody I loved was there. I really loved Chicago.
It's really my favorite place I've ever lived. And I
remember feeling like, but that's not what I'm supposed to do.
I'm supposed to go to LA and go after this
big brass ring that everybody. Yeah, But then this therapist
who you know lives somewhere in Michigan and has no
sense of the comedy world. Was just like that sounds dumb.

(11:33):
There's a place you love that makes you happy, and
you're going to force yourself to move to the other place,
like a bad homework assignment.

Speaker 1 (11:39):
The thing is, psychologically speaking, the best decision is always
to move to Chicago. It's like Chicago calls both me
and Sam, I think in ways that we can't even
really wrap our minds or out.

Speaker 3 (11:51):
I moved their sight unseen from Virginia right after I
graduated from college. Best place I've ever been. Never knew
nothing about it other than they had a team called
the Cubs and they.

Speaker 1 (12:01):
Had you know, Sam is a UVA grad.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, wait, where are you from Virginia?

Speaker 3 (12:05):
I went to William and Mary.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Oh wow, that's wild there.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
If you are from Virginia. There's two good colleges that
are in state, and one is for people who are
smart and very nerdy, and the other one is for
people who are a little smarter and popular and samy
for a popular college, and I went to the one
slightly less smart nerds.

Speaker 2 (12:27):
I have to say when I when I visited William
and Mary because because I got into both of course, of.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
Course, and thank you, thank you for clarifying.

Speaker 2 (12:35):
And so I went to William and Mary and I
was like, I was like, you know, it's pretty, It's
really pretty. And then I finally I went to visit
Uva and I was like, oh, these people are like cool.
I was like, okay, I've got it.

Speaker 3 (12:46):
That's right. And I visited both and was like intimidated
by everybody at UVA. When I went to William and
Mary on the tour and I was like, oh, this
place smells like books. And I did William and Mary
early decision. I didn't even wow, you did education. I
was like this is for nerds and I am home.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
That is so funny and it's like them to a party.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
I was like, yeah, the UA.

Speaker 2 (13:11):
I had never been to a party, but I dreamed
of it. My That was like the first time I
really stood up to my dad, to be honest, because
he is like grew up in Virginia, so he like,
especially in the seventies, like he like William Mary had
like a much better reputation, and he was like, you
have to go to William Mary. And I was like, Dad,
I'm not going to William Mary, I'm going to Uba.
And he's like, you just want to go to parties,

(13:32):
and I was like, I'm so much better than that,
but I also want to go to parties.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
Like all the things that we were going to talk
about today, this would have been bottom.

Speaker 2 (13:40):
Of like this, me too. I love it. It actually
is very straight culture the Joe.

Speaker 3 (13:44):
The funny thing is like it's like it's like any
like micro community right where like within Virginia this is
a big deal. And then yeah, and I left the
state of Virginia. No one has ever heard of my college.
No one could give a shit less. No one is impressed,
not even like it's whatever. The opposite of impressed is
they're always like, is that the school from Facts of Life?

(14:05):
Nobody even thinks it sounds like a real school.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
It is a mystery William and Mary has always been
a mystery to me. I'm always like, wait, is it
really religious?

Speaker 2 (14:14):
Right?

Speaker 3 (14:14):
People think it's religious. People think it's an all girls school.
People think it's private. It's just a regular it should
it could just be called Virginia State University, or.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
It's just a strange name for a school. I think
is what it comes down to you, You're like, why
is it not called something normal? But I will say
it to bring it to the you know, topic of
this podcast, which is recklessly calling things either gay or
straight for no reason. I do think UVA is the
straight one.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Mary is the so straight with all due respect Sam,
it is popped collars and Oakley sunglasses and polo matches.
And that's what I imagine. And like someone doing a
keg stand on top of someone else doing a keg.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yes, I honestly think I imagine Sam going to UV is
like him taking his fetish of manly, burly great men
too far to the point where it's like, great, well,
I'm gonna go to a frat school.

Speaker 3 (15:04):
Yes, I mean, and obviously everybody there is smart. As
Sam keeps pointing out, it is definitely if one of
them has to be straight, one of them has to
be gay. Will even marry it's gay for sure?

Speaker 2 (15:15):
No.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Were you out in college?

Speaker 3 (15:17):
No, not even to myself. I didn't. Also, I was
a theater major and didn't know anybody out. We all
thought we were straight.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
Yeah, I mean it was Also I'm I'm gonna take
a wild guest and say older than you guys. It
was the late nineties being out. I know it sounds silly,
but even like a college theater department was still just
a different thing. And I do think there was like
that thing of like depending on where you grew up,
not even understanding that that was a possible thing, Like
I really I was like, I think I was, so

(15:48):
what did the kids say, compet I think I just like, yeah, yeah,
the options presented to me just had never been that.
It just didn't cross my mind, which is opening because
the minute it finally did in my late twenties, I
was like, oh God, Like I didn't even have like
the struggle internally of like, oh am I gay? Am I?
The second it occurred to me, I was like, oh God,
of course, of course, and I'm so gay, Like it's

(16:12):
so funny that like it didn't occur to me because like,
like you know how like Kinsey's like there's a spectrum
and everybody's somewhere on the spectrum. I'm like the zero
or like the like I'm just like not even a
little bit straight, Like I have no interest in men
sexually even like not like just none, and I'm not
repulsed by them. I'm just like the same way you

(16:33):
wouldn't be like sexually interested in like a stapler. Yeah,
it just didn't cross my mind. It just really didn't.
I think. I just it just didn't cross my mind anyway.
So that's that's a long answer your question. But no,
I was not out in college.

Speaker 2 (16:45):
That's interesting. I mean, my it's funny how when it
clicks it clicks. I feel like when I was getting
bullied for being gay in high school and I was
not out and I didn't think I was gay, and
then they started bullying me, and that's when I was like, well,
I'm not gay, and I was like, well, I guess
I am looking at gay porn. Like it's it's like, wait,
like gay is a concept is different, Like I was like, well,

(17:06):
I'm not gay, Like I'm like, I'm I'm.

Speaker 1 (17:09):
Culturely, I'm not culturally gay.

Speaker 3 (17:11):
I just want to split hairs. There is at Yeah,
I think that there's such a narrow idea. I mean,
obviously there's a narrow idea of all kinds of queer
people in the media, but like at that time, there
was just the most narrow idea of what a lesbian was. Yeah,
I just never saw them on TV at all referenced.
And then it's like I had this incredibly narrow, incredibly

(17:32):
like hyper masculine presenting idea, and like I looked in
college basically exactly like I look right now, right like
I'm like, they're worrying what you could maybe generously consider
a blouse.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
I would say, you're running that boardroom like it's the Navy. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
Absolutely, I'm not like super super fan presenting. But I'm
not like super masculine presenting. And so I think I
also was like I would every once a while across
my mind and then I'd look in the mirror and
be like, well, I don't look I'm not wearing a
leather jacket where the sleeves have been torn off, right, yess,
I'm not a LESBI like.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
I just you're like, wait a minute, I have long hair.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:11):
Or I'd be like wearing a shirt from the loft,
and I'd be like, well, that can't be. I can't
be gay just by by virtue of having been inside
the loft. I can't be. I think I'm just like
would kind of float through my mind every once in
a while, but then I just immediately would dismiss it.
Not even in a homophobic way, but just like in
a doing the math.

Speaker 2 (18:28):
Yeah, well it's actually did you watch the second season
of the rehearsal?

Speaker 3 (18:32):
No?

Speaker 2 (18:33):
No, Well he has this thing he's kind of he well,
I don't know if I want to spoil it, please Okay,
Well this is a spoiler. All. He basically is flying
a plane and he thinks he might have autism, and
you're not allowed to fly a commercial plane if you
have autism. So then he just doesn't get the results
to his like autism test because he's like, well, how

(18:55):
could I be autistic? I'm already flying the plane. And
that's sort of like how you are, like, well, how
could I be a lesbian? I'm in the loft.

Speaker 3 (19:02):
Yeah, I was like, I was like, I'm the most
fun person in my sorority.

Speaker 1 (19:05):
How could I I'm the most fun person in the loft.

Speaker 3 (19:13):
So anyway, but yeah, I just know. And then Bright
it is funny, like you said, like when it clicks,
it clicks, and you're like, oh, yeah, this is silly.
This is why I'm always high fiving my boyfriends.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
I yeah, go ahead, George.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
I remember watching Will and Grace and being like that
Jack character is so offensive, Like that is not what
like this is. They're perpetuating a stereotype. And of course
now I'm like that's me.

Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, and like me af Now I'm like Will is offensive.
I'm like Will is an assimilation?

Speaker 1 (19:42):
Is why is he a lawyer?

Speaker 3 (19:44):
You're like Will is the character written by the straight writers.

Speaker 2 (19:46):
Literally, Yeah, that's the thing.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
Like, I'll go on and on about how narrow the
lanes are, and then meanwhile, I have season tickets to
the to the w NBA.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
I know there is something really amazing about just embracing
everything you told was like offensive stereotype when you were younger.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah, it is a very funny place to live, right,
where in some ways you feel constrained by them, and
then some some ways, Like I think once I realized
I was gay, I felt like I could relax into
some of the parts that I had unknowingly been kind
of suppressing any details about how I dressed. All of
a sudden, I was like, oh, that's why I didn't
buy that shirt. I think some part of my brain
was like that's too gay. Yeah, And I think it's like, right,

(20:22):
there is a very funny place to live where you
both reject stereotypes. And then also embrace them and feel
kind of comfortable.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
It's funny.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
I think that like internal struggle of not wanting to
succumb to a stereotype is the thing that straight men
have been experiencing for the very first time over the
last ten years. Really, Like this is when people talk
about how like there was a crisis of masculinity because
men felt marginalized during Me Too, It's like, okay, so
what you're saying is that for the first time there

(20:50):
existed such a thing as like negative stereotypes about straight men,
and then straight men were like, no, I'm not a misogynist,
Like no, oh, I don't talk over women in meetings,
like how It's like, right, part of anyone's existence is
grappling with negative stereotypes about whatever community you're a part of.

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Wow, I think that's interesting, right, and I have so
much empathy.

Speaker 3 (21:16):
Yeah, finally, it's funny. I also have to be careful
because I feel like, first of all, I'm sure just
like as comedians, we all do this right where you
talking kind of broad strokes and make jokes out of
course stereops. And then I think as a queer person,
as a woman, like I feel comfortable being like, look,
you know men and you know straight people and blah

(21:38):
blah blah, and then like, so I have a son
who's eleven, and I'm like, I gotta watch my fucking
mouth because I can't be like fucking men, you know
what I mean at some point, and I don't know
how he identifies, how he will end up identifying in
his life, So I also don't want to be ship like.
It's like, I, you know, I'm honest with him about
what I think are stereotypes that exist in the world,
but I have to be careful about how much I

(21:59):
like jokingly talk.

Speaker 1 (22:01):
We run into this a lot with the fact that
our entire mo O is like jokingly saying things are
gay or straight, and sometimes we go all the way
back round to just being like sexist because we're just like,
we'll just be like beer is for men, wine is
for women, like just because we're trying to make some
larger point about gender, and it's like whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 3 (22:19):
That's not everybody pink is gay.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah wait, what.

Speaker 3 (22:24):
Are we talking progress?

Speaker 2 (22:26):
You can really get stuck in here in a bad way.

Speaker 3 (22:29):
Yeah yeah you really. Yeah, it's it is a little
bit of like a twisty fly right.

Speaker 1 (22:34):
Yeah, not to take a hard left turn. But I
think let's get our first segment out of the way
because I want to really delve into some topics.

Speaker 2 (22:42):
Yeah. I can tell this is going to be an
intellectually Oh I'm strong episode.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
My PhD from William and Mary's about to put to use.

Speaker 2 (22:51):
I mean, I can't believe I first wanted to before
we get to the first segment. I'm like, why did
I jump at that so hard? It's I really have
like done a good job of tamping down sort of
my caring of like local, my localness.

Speaker 3 (23:06):
I think it's funny, I think, right, you, but it's
so hard how imprinted on you. The things that you
are told when you were younger are important, those are
so like so like I had the William and Mary thing,
like you have to get into a good school and
this is the one you got to and it's like
nobody cares. And then I spent ten years in Chicago
coming up in the comedy scene, and Second City was
the holy Grail, and I was so important to me
to work there, and I'm glad that I didn't had
a wonderful time. You better believe the second I set

(23:29):
foot outside of Chicago, no one gave a fuck. Like
I showed up in New York and it was like
I had never done comedy. I had no street cred,
no one. And I was talking with a friend of
mine from Chicago, and I remember telling her it's like
I showed up here with a bunch of Confederate money,
like I can't spend it. No one gives it but

(23:49):
I But I lived. And Sam, you'll get that from.

Speaker 2 (23:52):
You are speaking my language so much right now, all.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
Right, But like then I showed and I had a
good friend who did comedy here in New York, and
he told me he was gonna move to LA. And
I said to him, I was like, I need to
tell you something to prepare you for when you go
to LA. No one will give a fuck what you
did in New York. Whatever. Little like Oh, I was
at UCB on the house team called like Grandpa's pickles,
Like no one gives a fuck. No one's heard of
Grandpa's pickles. You have no currency. But I think that

(24:16):
is like wherever you come up in the world, you
cannot let go of these things being important.

Speaker 2 (24:22):
It's the way that I'm in LA. I was in
New York for twelve years, and honey, I made a splash.
Let's say that, and I'm out here and it's like
I was never I never existed. Like it's like I'm
starting fresh in this way that I'm like wait what
And each time I'd be like no, just like put
yourself out there, and people will like immediately like take
to you, and I'm like no, it's literally starting over.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
Oh. It says if you've never done comedy a day
in your life, you have to eat shit one thousand percent.
And I, yeah, I did it when I moved here.
I did it. When I moved to Detroit, people were
like constantly explaining to me how improv worked. But you'd
just be like, let me just eat for a little while.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
I have never heard of anything more humbling than people
in Detroit explaining to you how kimprov. So that I
think would be my worst night.

Speaker 3 (25:09):
I remember somebody explaining to me what one particular form was,
and then the worst part is that form had been
invented in Chicago and they were explaining it wrong. But
I just had to be like yes, okay, yeah, yes, okay,
great damn and I think that's just yeah. But anyway,
like that's again, like you show up with your whatever
you're William and Mary diploma or your your second city

(25:29):
T shirt and people are like, I don't give a fuck.
Damn well, I'll put the room down, and I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
No, no, it's it's this is I want to talk
more about this, but I know it's like probably uninteresting
to some listeners, but I like that's sort of where
the tornness of moving back to New York is. Like
is it just because I'm tired of being small?

Speaker 3 (25:50):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (25:50):
I see, yeah, You're like, I just I'm tired of
putting in the day to day effort.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah, because the thing with.

Speaker 1 (25:58):
When you're comfortable and you're surrounding, then you choose where
to put in the effort. It's like, okay, Baseline, I
have a community, I have friends, I am respected. Now
I want to work on a new project, and that
is where I'm putting in my effort. My effort isn't
going into just like fitting in.

Speaker 2 (26:13):
No.

Speaker 3 (26:13):
I think when you move to the new city, you
have to hustle your ass off for a while, and
it is a little bit like planting seeds and then
once you've been there for a couple years, a lot
of you have all this like like what the thing
that grows is like like your reputation and your street
credit and your network, and then you are able to
be choosier and to really go hard on a corny metaphor,
but you're able to pluck what you want to be doing.
But in the beginning, it is just grinding. Yeah, Like

(26:37):
I said, like I thought Second City was the holy Grail,
and then and then you know, I moved to New
York and I was like, being on a late night
show is the holy Grail. And then I was just
at Brooklyn Pride a couple of weekends ago, and Second
City recently opened a theater. You're in New York. I
haven't been to it, but there's one in Brooklyn, And
they had a booth at Brooklyn Pride, and there were
some people there wearing these Second City shirts that had

(26:58):
the Second City logo with rainbow, like a rainbow Second
City shirt, which I'd never seen such a thing. Like
when I was at Second City, it still wasn't again
it was the early two thousands, it was not it
was a little dicey to be gay. The fact that
Second City would have Pride merge, and again, like coming
from Chicago, I still have a real affection for Second City.
So I said, oh my god, can I get one
of those shirts? And they're like they're not for sale,

(27:19):
They're really just for the people working this booth, and
I was like, I get it. I was like, I
will pay you for it. I'm just I'm a lum.
I just think it'd be so cool to have one
of those shirts. And this woman goes, oh, were you, like,
did you like do comedy in Chicago or something. It's
like great, it just is always.

Speaker 1 (27:35):
But that's okay then and then you answered no, I
was in Detroit.

Speaker 3 (27:39):
Yeah. I was like you of missions, but I think
it was just look, it's always that you. But that
person's not required to know anything about me, but it
is of like, no matter how many things I do,
there's always gonna be somebody who's like, but you're nobody, right,
And you're like, okay, well, yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:53):
If we had a soundboard that we could put push
little sound effects on, I want to Roddy Dangerfield, I
get no risk by button. I want one so bad.

Speaker 1 (28:02):
No respect, no respect at all, and I want to
clear like that person's not required to like give me
anything any.

Speaker 2 (28:08):
Kind of oh, but they should know.

Speaker 3 (28:10):
It was funny. It was like, yeah, no matter how
many of these benchmarks you set for yourself, there's no
point what it's like. And then I've made it and
then I don't have to try.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
It's like, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:19):
But Sam, I think you should move having just met
you moments ago, I think you should move to what
the place that makes your heart feel good?

Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yeah? Maybe New York is my UVA after all, because
people there are actually cool. Okay, this to our first segment, Yes, okay, Jenny.
Our first segment was called straight Shooters, And in this segment,

(28:47):
we're going to ask you a series of rapid fire questions.
It's basically this thing or this other thing. And the
only rule is you can't ask any follow up questions
or we will get so so upset with you.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
You really have to follow your heart.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
Yeah, George, you want to kick us off?

Speaker 1 (29:02):
Yes, So I'm looking at my notebook. I'm not looking
down at my phone, I promise. Okay, gold star.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Or cash bar gold star. Democraticism wow, okay, democratic socialism
or operatic vocalism.

Speaker 3 (29:22):
Democratic socialism.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
My cousin Vinnie or Papua New Guinea.

Speaker 3 (29:25):
Oh, my cousin, Vinny, it holds up?

Speaker 2 (29:30):
Yeah, okay, a missed opportunity, or a kiss from Brendan Yuri.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
Oh, kiss from Brendan Uri.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
Voting absentee, or turning thirty three?

Speaker 3 (29:41):
Turning thirty three? Can you imagine you so.

Speaker 2 (29:44):
Young installing your ac or free falling towards the street.

Speaker 3 (29:50):
Free falling towards the street. I never want to install an.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Acy dancing on my own or financing a deadly drone.

Speaker 3 (29:58):
Dancing on my own.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
Rock the Vote or lost your tote?

Speaker 3 (30:03):
Rock the Vote?

Speaker 1 (30:04):
Wow? Wow, Okay, let's see we rank.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
I can't be bothered carrying totes.

Speaker 1 (30:11):
I do like the simplicity of Rock the Vote.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
Rock the Vote.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
We need to bring back earnestly saying Rock.

Speaker 2 (30:16):
The Vote, there's something to it.

Speaker 3 (30:18):
We need to bring back MTV as a legitimate political force.

Speaker 1 (30:22):
I know. The thing is, I'm always tempted to talk
about to talk about youth culture, but the truth is
I don't. I'm so far removed from it that I'm
sure everything I'm saying is stupid. Like I have the
instinct to be like, why is there no MTV these days?
Like there needs to be like a sort of youth
oriented media organization that's like getting people pumped up and
encouraging sort of like young people to speak their minds.

(30:45):
And of course, like I'm sure there are things like that.
It's just they're not targeting me.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
Right right. I think it's just like I was thinking,
it's funny I worked at MTV for a few years
before I worked at late night, and I think, so
what people would always want to hear. I got to
hear a lot of people's opinions about MTV because when
I said where I work, people would like be like,
why isn't MTV, Like MTV doesn't play music videos and
MTV is not relevant. Yeah, And I mean that's fair.
It had to pivot, you know, when you got to

(31:08):
a point where you could hear any song you wanted
and go online and see any music video you wanted,
it had to pivot to something else. But I just
I just feel nostalgic for the time when like like
Kurt Loder was a real newsman like you if they
broke real news on MTV, it was really an important
cultural of like you know, the real world talked about HIV.
It was just such an interesting, cool time, and I

(31:30):
feel like I wish there was something that like was
for young people. Again, maybe this exists, and I hope
somebody will tell me about it if it does. But
something that is for young people but assumes that young
people are very smart, isn't like a dumbed down or
very like isn't a dumbed down thing for young people?
Like it really like you had to kind of MTV

(31:50):
trusted that you were gonna want to get your news
about Kurt Cobaine's death from this middle aged man with
a receiding hairline and a blazer.

Speaker 2 (31:57):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean the gay the gay episodes of
Next Honey they raised me. That was really like, wait,
gay guys are real?

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah, totally. Next was like the it was right in
the middle of the transition from old MTV to new MTV.
Like it was like, it wasn't music videos and you know,
someone interviewing Courtney Love, but it also wasn't yet like
Jersey Shore. It was sort of it was like half
youth culture, half reality TV trash.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
Well, we do rate our guests on a scale of
zero one thousand doves.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
I think this was a really good performance. I think
the fact that you started with changing your mind really
established established a character. Like I think there was something
about like the confidence of saying one thing, but then
the greater confidence of changing your mind that actually really
really kind of pointed to the power of speaking your

(33:04):
voice and rocking the vote.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yeah, so with that, I'm gonna say, nine hundred and
forty seven doves. I agree, God, thank you. Yeah, I
mean this is maybe our first mind change in history,
and we've been doing this for a while now.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
And I also think, you know, you changing your mind
like emphasize how seriously you were taking it, Like if
you didn't care, you would just like whatever, pick an
answer and then move on. But it also made us
feel better about ourselves because we were like, okay, like
she's actually sitting down and listening.

Speaker 3 (33:35):
I literally had this feeling for a second like does
that mean I can't go to open bars anymore?

Speaker 1 (33:43):
I know I was because that's an interesting one, gold
star or open bar, because I could see you being
like I got to stick with my people, like gold
star is such a classic sort of like lesbian term.
But then you were like, no, I like drinking more
than I like being a lesbian.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
You're going to put them back to back. I think
also gold Star makes me nostalgic for the time when
and I know there still is like coded language and
stuff in the queer community. There's so much more I
think with the Internet and social media, there's so much
more access to our secret stuff that we lose it
almost as soon as we created. Makes me nostalgic for
a time when we did have secrets and code words.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
God, I completely agree with you. Actually, and this is
something I think. I think Sam and I talk about
it all the time. How like gay terms now are
so democratized and some random girl will just be like twink.
Like We'll just be like, yeah, I saw a twink
on the street. I'm like, hold on, who are you?

Speaker 3 (34:37):
We were like, well when I came out at work
as a democrat, and I'm.

Speaker 1 (34:41):
Like totally no, yeah, or people saying like straight people
saying using the terms topping and bottoming, which I think
ultimately you should be allowed to do. I'm not, you know,
gate keeping them, but I'm like, hold on, we need
to have a town hall.

Speaker 3 (34:57):
I will gate keep partner. Please, if you are please
stop telling me about your partner, because then I get excited.
We're you're a new friend or a new coworker, and
you're like, well, my partner, and then I get excited
that I found another gay in the wild.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yes, but then they're actually coming out as a Democrat.

Speaker 3 (35:16):
But then you said, then your name is Melissa, and
then you're like, my partner, my partner, And then you're like,
but Brad, and I would love to have you over
for dinner, and I'm like, no, yeah's partner. Everybody's something.
Maybe you get a new term, maybe straight for.

Speaker 1 (35:31):
Yeah, you can just call him your your brad. Maybe
straight people just say you're my Brad for a boy,
and my Melissa for girls.

Speaker 3 (35:39):
Is a guy you've been dating for a long time
who will not commit to you, and actually, yes, correct,
Melissa is the same thing.

Speaker 2 (35:44):
This is my Brad. Should we get into the topic, yes, Jenny.
First of all, you came with Alyssa to die for topics.

Speaker 1 (35:55):
They honestly kept getting better. I was like, I kept
being like that one, that one that.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
Way I know, kept we like, we chose to kind
of willy nilly be based on some of what we
were talking about, but all of them should be their
own episode. So we first, if you could just read
them all and then tell us which one we're doing today.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
Yeah, great, thank you. This is my list of pitches
for things in straight culture that I do not love.
Ridal showers, purses, wine charms, candles as gifts, praising a
man for doing the least, posting your children on social media,
a dress that's just a long Oxford shirt, and babysitting

(36:36):
your kids, your own kids, baby.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
Your own kids. I mean, what an amazing list. Wine
charms in particular, I was like, there's so much happening here.

Speaker 1 (36:47):
I was thinking of, like posting your children on social media.
I specifically am fascinated by the phenomenon of putting little
emoji on your kids' faces on social media, because there's
something so first of all, just aesthetically, I hate it,
like it's so it looks so bad, like why is
there a little heartface in the middle of this like

(37:09):
otherwise beautiful photograph. And then second of all, you're like,
either do it or don't.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
I am just kind of like, okay, this is I'm
sure there's an answer. What's the point.

Speaker 1 (37:21):
I think the point is that they don't want well, okay,
I think the point is that they don't want their
children's likeness to be publicly available for like mass surveillance reasons,
I assume, but then also to be a little more
like grim about it. I also am sure that there's

(37:41):
some sort of like fear about children being like some
pervert being like turned on by your child.

Speaker 3 (37:49):
I'm sure there's all of that. I mean, look, you
get into dicey territory whenever you're a parent, and you're
like parents should or should not do that. So I'm
gonna say already that I'm wading into dangerous waters. But
I think that there is so much noise among parents
around like safety and online safety for kids, and so
I feel like why would why all of that? And

(38:09):
like how to keep your kids safe online? What age
they should have a phone? What controls you should have
on your computer and your TV and all that and
your your phone, and then why do all of that
and then be like it's Jaden's first day of school
and post a picture of your actual child on your
actual front steps with your actual address behind Jamee's head. Yes,

(38:30):
I feel like he's in first first day of first grade,
so that a literal kidnapper can be like, okay, first grade.
So he's about eighty pounds, so I'm gonna leave. I'll
need the pickup and not the not the four door Sedan. Okay, Like, yeah,
that all of that makes It's like and your account
has your last name and then you've said your kid's
first name, and like maybe I'm old fashioned, but and

(38:51):
also I don't know, man, Like I think, I really
feel like Jaden is gonna be a grown up one
day and it's gonna have all this stuff out them
online and will have had no control over what was
put out in the world about them. And I don't
look like Jaden's going to try to go for a
job interview or just even like a first date. Think

(39:11):
about how dig you deep before a first date or
sat or a second date or whatever, and then you've
got all of this stuff and Jaden has no control
over how they are presented in the world. I love
that I really doubled down on the name Jayden.

Speaker 2 (39:25):
No, I know Jaden is real. I can see him currently.

Speaker 1 (39:29):
There's something about there's something about the emoji on kids'
faces that feels very specifically millennial or elder millennial to me,
because it is those parents both have the urge to
post but also grew up knowing the dangers of the Internet,
like and they just can't decide, and it's like it
is the result of like two different views pulling at you.

(39:52):
Like You're like, I need the likes because that's what
gives meself worth. But I also know I was raised
to fear, just like putting in from there.

Speaker 3 (40:00):
That's really interesting. I had never thought of that being
like a visual representation of this, like push pull, But
I think you're exactly right. And again, like I want
me to be a purist. And some people have very
small online circles. Maybe I'm just extra nervous about it
because I am on TV and every once in a
while somebody recognizes me, and then I'm like, I don't
know if I want that person to also know where
I live and where my son is. And also like

(40:21):
I'm queer, so I'm also like, m some people have
opinion about whether or not we should be allowed to
own children, So I'm like, let me just.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
Stay and thank you for calling it owning.

Speaker 3 (40:32):
It's very recent. It's only very recent in recent human
history that I wouldn't have been allowed to own my child, so.

Speaker 2 (40:39):
Wow, But okay, And then the topic we have decided
to go with is the long Oxford as a dress. Yes,
I would love for you to talk a little bit
about what makes it straight to you?

Speaker 3 (40:51):
Okay, I think that it is very straight. It's so
interesting because I think it has no flavor, there's no
edge to it. It just you just took a shirt
and made it longer. It's just a long shirt. I
don't know how else. It's like, it's just there's no
you took a shirt and just kept going. And I

(41:13):
think it also, I think it's very I find it
bland as an object. And I also feel like it
favors the blandest bodies because I think like you really
can't if you are somebody who is curvy, that dress
is not cut for you. So I think it just
really celebrates blandness in a way that I don't enjoy.
And it I don't love a thing on a woman

(41:35):
where it's like I'm serious but I'm not. I feel
like either you're about your business or you're out to
have a good times. What it is, it's you know
what it is. It's the mullet of dresses business top
and party on the bottom. What are we are?

Speaker 1 (41:50):
It's the compromise that pleases no one.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
That's it you try to please everyone, you'll please no one,
and that's what this garment has done.

Speaker 2 (41:57):
I think it's a funny piece. I feel like it,
Like you know, it takes the boyfriend's shirt, the idea
of like this is my boyfriend's shirt and I just
woke up and this is all I can wear, and
makes it like and now I can wear it out
like it's like the boyfriend is implied even when you're
wearing the shirt dress, it's like I'm wearing this because
I have a boyfriend.

Speaker 3 (42:17):
That's such a good point, because I think it's a
very iconic image too in movies of like the woman
spends the night for the first time, and then the
next morning you see her in the man's Oxford shirt,
and I think, I don't write it's like, you can
wear an Oxford shirt. It's okay, lady, live your best life.
Go wear an Oxford shirt. You don't have to be
this is the girl version.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
It really encapsulates as an object all the anxieties of
like a progressive straight woman, Like it's like it is
she is so confused about whether she wants to go
full business casual or be like fun and flirty. She
is alluding to the idea of a boyfriend, but while

(42:59):
maintaining her her own like female empowerment. She's like, she's
she reads the cut, like she reads fashion journalism, but
is not like, you know, scrolling through runway photos every day.
It's she's just like it's this desperation of just like,
please just take me seriously, while also viewing me as

(43:21):
kind of attractive. Like it's just like, ca, can't I
just win?

Speaker 2 (43:25):
Please?

Speaker 3 (43:26):
Yeah, I think it is so sexy. And again, I'm
a lesbian, so you know, I have my own perspective
that's very gay. But I think it's like very cool
and sexy when a woman wears traditional men's clothing and
does it unapologetically. And I think that's what I don't like,
is this is an apologetic garment.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Yes it is.

Speaker 1 (43:46):
It's exactly right. It's like, I mean, it's sort of
similar to like a skirt suit in that way, like
there is something that's like I'm trying not that I'm
against skirtsuits, but it's like I'm trying to allude to
a suit a masculine know symbol, but I'm still a woman.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
Yeah, And I think it's also they're just always still
plain every time I've seen when it's either white or
it's that Oxford shirt blue, so like you're not gonna
see one in a fun pattern.

Speaker 2 (44:14):
It's not.

Speaker 3 (44:14):
There's just not a lot of fun to be had there.
And I just maybe that's a metaphor for being a
straight woman. I think there's a lot of it's all constraint,
not a lot of.

Speaker 1 (44:22):
Fun, and there was no whimsy because here's my suggestion
nowhere that wear that shirt dress, get this with a tie.
That's fun oo I put a little eye on, but like,
get like an exaggerated.

Speaker 2 (44:36):
It kind of Freddstone, yes, like.

Speaker 1 (44:39):
Or yes, that very Fred Flintstone codd or get like
an exaggerated eighties Wall Street tie and have it be
like draggy in that way, or.

Speaker 3 (44:47):
And like Doc Martin boots or something. Yes, yeah right,
but yeah, it's I think it's always like with like
the blandest sandal and like a bland hobo bag, and
I just I want Here's I sound like I'm being
really judgmental. It's more I want more for straight women.
I want them to enjoy their clothes more. And I
think this is there's the least enjoyment is being had

(45:10):
in this garment. Wow, nothing fun is happening. You put
on a long Oxford shirt dress. There, nothing fun is
happening in your day.

Speaker 1 (45:20):
Totally, No, You're you're even something. You're going You're going
to like a picnic park birthday for like a really
tertiary friend that you sort of don't even like, you
like went to college with, and now you happen to
both have kids that are the same age, so you reconnected.
And you had one awkward coffee date and her husband

(45:41):
is honestly like kind of creepy, but you sort of
like put up with it. And you get there and
all the kids are being annoying, and suddenly you're getting
a text from your mom because your dad's condition is
getting worse, and you have to get home because the
service is bad in the middle of Central Park, and
also you can't even use Google Maps to get from
the street to wear the pin has dropped in Central

(46:01):
Park because it gets all like confuse, your phone gets
all confused, and suddenly it's four pm and guess what,
it's the hottest day of the year. And you don't
even want to be there. And you thought that the
fabric would be breathable, but actually at Oxford. Fabric is
not made for the summer.

Speaker 3 (46:15):
It's not well, you're wearing it in like the bleachers
at a little league game, but like your kids on
a travel team and it's like the seventh game of
the weekend.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Wow. Wow, these images.

Speaker 3 (46:28):
Just this garment is not made for fun And I want, No,
it's not I want I think there is such a
reverence in queer women's clothing right now. There's like a
really lovely lesbian style moment happening. I think there was
even like a New York Times article that was about
how like lesbians are at the forefront of fashion, which
truly goes against all stereotypes. And I just feel like
I want that for straight women. I want that same

(46:51):
kind of irreverence and fun and disregard for rules of
like what you're supposed to wear to this or that event.
And I just that's that's my dream for them.

Speaker 2 (47:01):
Yeah, And we were talking a little bit about this
before we were recording, But the reverence for lesbian fashion
and the rise of Birkenstocks in straight culture, I'm curious
to hear your thoughts on it.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
Well, I mean, I think it's so funny, right, I
think like I don't want to be grudge anybody wearing anything.
That being said, this being a safe space of just
the three of us, and then you're millions of listeners.
I feel like birkinsocks especially, I have such a like
little like, what do you call it? A be in
your bonnet? Sure, sure born in your side, a hook

(47:37):
in your craw Are these expressions in English? But I
think it bugs me so much because it was like,
birkin socks were such a lesbian punchline for so long,
and then all of a sudden, the straight people woke
up out of nowhere one day and we're like, we
like them, They're cool, And I was like, wait a second,
what Yeah, So that drives me a little bonkers. If
they liked them on their own, fine, but I was like,

(47:58):
but after at least two decades of making fun of
us for wearing them, all.

Speaker 1 (48:02):
Right, I think that b and I think birkenstocks wide
leg it pants. I think the lesbians were very early
to that trend. I mean obviously, like, guess what shirts
buttoned up all the way, Like that's a classic. Like
your cousin, like your lesbian cousin at the wedding is

(48:24):
going to go ahead and wear a shirt button all
the way.

Speaker 3 (48:27):
Also beanies any time of year, beanies that has really
been stolen from my people. Also Brooklyn, So I also
I am getting like I'm probably at the epicenter of
the bleedover from lesbian culture. Yeah, like there's so much
of like the thin, ironic vintage T shirt and the
you know, like there's a lot of like it's just

(48:48):
there's a lot of coveralls happening among straight women right
now in Brooklyn, and it does feel like, yeah, it's
just it's it's it's such a funny intersection right to
be like made fun of fashion, but then also to
see it co opted.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
I even feel like gay guys are ripping lesbian fashion,
like current work where trend like the long jean shorts
with like a white tank top is so seeing bandanas.

Speaker 1 (49:14):
I'm seeing bandanas out there in a way that feels
very little.

Speaker 3 (49:17):
Fair interesting, interesting.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
Even bandana's both on one's head and also around one's neck. Also,
I think we've been saying ties are kind of coming back, Like, yeah, ties,
there was a moment when ties were so tragically uncool
and it was even cool to just like even at
a super formal event go with like an unbuttoned shirt.

(49:40):
And I'm seeing ties more and more now people are
buying vintage ties. I think bluntstones, I mean, blunstones at
this point are like on their way out anyway. But
the first people I ever saw wearing bloodstones were queer women,
and then that became like the official uniform of Brooklyn
moms and dads everywhere.

Speaker 3 (49:55):
Yes, anytime you have an intersection of comfort and utility,
aren't there, well, this is those are our cornerstones.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
But this is what stuff about the blundstone. George, I
respect and agree with you that the blundstone has been
like so trendy for so long and it can't last.
But it's like such a practical shoe, and you know
New York is in need of a practical shoe. I mean,
it's really hard to give it up totally.

Speaker 1 (50:19):
Well, guess what, you know what's on the rise now?
And I've I think I was on the forefront of
this of this Merrills are hugely on the rise. Oh
I'm talking mainstream, which is.

Speaker 3 (50:31):
So funny because that's like, again, that's like such a
Christopher Columbus moment where it's like lesbian's head and Maryls.

Speaker 1 (50:37):
That's what I'm saying eight nineties.

Speaker 3 (50:39):
Yes, and I'm like, that's again, We're doing that again.

Speaker 1 (50:42):
No, Merrill's is literally like a joke that would be
on Will and Grace. Will and Grace famously a very
lesbi lesbian phobic show. They had one. Literally Rose o'donna
plays a character and she's just the punchline of every
single joke. But it's we would be very classic for
her to be like wearing Meryls and for Jack to
make fun of her for it.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
Sure, there was a I lived in a lesbian neighborhood
in Chicago, and there was a store. It was a
shoe store, and it wasn't officially a lesbian shoe store,
but it was like in the heart of Chicago's lesbian neighborhood.
And when I tell you they only sold three things Meryll's,
clerks and dance goes, I feel like jokes aside about

(51:22):
lesbian style and gay men style. The thing that does
make me a little crazy about all of it getting
co opted so fast is that it also grew out
of a need to be able to identify each other.
And I will see that when great people look like
queer people, then you just don't know. There's no way
for us to privately signal to each other, Hey, I'm

(51:43):
one of you, A you are safe with me. And
like I'm not saying that I don't even like bring
the room down, but I do. I also miss that
of these like little tiny things that we knew to
look for or listen for, that that could help us
identify each other to each other if we wanted to.
And I feel, I mean, the thing that gets made
gets bleeds into straight culture so fast that we can't

(52:04):
keep a hold of anyone.

Speaker 1 (52:06):
I mean that is the nature of something being co
opted means that it is decontextualized and so then literally
the context is removed. Like the entire point of a
specific trend or a specific visual signifier is that it
exists within like a lexicon that a certain n group knows.
And once you take that out, and it's just like, oh,

(52:27):
sure I can combine a brooch with birkenstocks with a
straw hat. Okay, so what are you?

Speaker 3 (52:36):
It's just even like the tiniest things, like you know
in the eighties that men had would wear an earring
on a certain side exactly, you know, just like the
tiniest little or like words lingo that you would float
into a conversation that would go over a straight coworker's head,
but a queer coworker could be across the room and
hear it and go, oh, okay, now I know the
new employee is also gay.

Speaker 2 (52:56):
Yeah. I have this realization recently because I was like,
I have an earring, I have a mustache, like both
kind of gay coated things and when when done the
right way, And then I was like, wait a minute,
I look exactly like Benson Boone. Like I was like,
oh no, what happened?

Speaker 3 (53:14):
But I like, there are twenty seven different things about
Benson Boone that would have been gay ten years ago.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
Yes, gymnastics is like not even does he even crack
up flying completely?

Speaker 1 (53:24):
This is actually what drives me insane. I have nothing
against them personally, but the Benson Boone image is more
than anything I've seen recently, just a combination of signifier,
like irresponsible signifiers. Just like they'll throw anything at him.
They'll be like, sure, have a mustache, have this hair. Also,
you're a Mormon. Also you can do flips like, yes,
we can see the clear outline of your cock at

(53:46):
all times. But it's not sexual. It's for kids.

Speaker 3 (53:48):
Like it's like it feels like a like a pr
person or a manager, a stylist took a bunch of
things and put them on the side of dice exactly
as like this, and then you're just are.

Speaker 2 (54:00):
Like, Okay, he never has any reason to wear that
damn outfit, Like the music does not call for that
outfit ever. Flips or the flips or the flip flips
not flipping music. It's not flipping music. Folks, teach Charlie
XCX how to do a flip. That's flipping music, right,
I'm there for that.

Speaker 1 (54:16):
Yeah, I would love it if Charlie XX learned how
to do a flip before she learned how to sing
or dance. Nofense, She's like.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
I'm gonna learn how to flip. Oh that would be awesome.

Speaker 1 (54:29):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
Wow. Well, I mean.

Speaker 1 (54:34):
Jenny, any final thoughts on Oxford shirts as dresses or
frankly fashion writ large the.

Speaker 3 (54:43):
Last person who should be answering this question. Here's I think.
I think where it feels good to you, right where
it really feels like you. I think that's really the
rule of fashion. I feel like New York taught me
that I think New York is full of people who
are making choices, and I really love that about New York.
It took me a minute. Somebody when I first moved here,
somebody was telling me that because they knew somebody who
was worried about what to wear on the first day

(55:04):
of a job. They were coming from another city. And
I remember she said this really great thing. She goes,
here's the thing about New York. You're always dressed correctly
if you look like you made a choice. So like,
if you show up to that job, a T shirt
and jeans can be right or wrong. She goes. If
it's like an oversized T shirt you got for free
at a five K, and like some loose dad jeans,
and then a pair of sneakers that are like your
old running shoes, that's wrong, that looks like you just

(55:27):
fell into that it's like a stylish T shirt that
has the name of some cool band on it, and
well fitted jeans and cool sneakers that are well taken
care of. Like, then that's an outfit. And I think
in New York, if you look like you made a
choice that feels good to you, you are always well
dressed and I think that that is a There's a
lot of things that New York will take from you,

(55:48):
but that is a thing that New York has given me.
And I really like that. I worry so much less
about it if I'm dressed right when I live here
and I just worry do I dress like? Am I
dress like? I feel great?

Speaker 2 (55:58):
That is such a great point. When we were just
in town, back in town, and my husband was putting
on so my first time saying it publicly, he put
on like sort of socks that like they were almost
like hiking socks, like they didn't go with it was
like hot out and it didn't make any sense. And
he was like, these are the only socks I have?

(56:19):
Can I wear these? And I was like like, I
was like absolutely, it's New York. Like I was like,
in La people dressed badly because they don't know, and
New York people are dressing badly because it's a stylistic
choice and they're trying to make a point. Yeah, And
I was like, this is great.

Speaker 3 (56:33):
No one looks at you. At one point when I
was pregnant, I was eight months pregnant and I was
on my way to a job and we'd all decided
at that job we were going to dress up for Halloween,
and I bought an outfit that was supposed to be
for like a young sexy woman that was a bee,
like a bumblebee, and so I thought, thought this thing.
It was like spandex white and black striped, and it

(56:54):
was supposed to be like a sexy dress, but I
was eight months pregnant, so barely basically it was like
a Spandex shirt. And then I were like blacks and
like antennae and wings. And then I got on the
subway and I remember being like, well, this is gonna
awkward on the subway, but it'll be fine when I
get to work. No one even looked at me on
the subway, And I love that about New York. People
were just like, yeah, man, that's this is her data
dressed like a bee. And first of all, they probably

(57:15):
even noticed me, but if they did, they were like, yeah,
the lady's doing her be outfit.

Speaker 2 (57:19):
Yeah no, it's it's heaven on Earth.

Speaker 3 (57:21):
And that's what I want for straight women. I want
straight women to wake up in the morning and be like,
today's the day I dressed like a bee. Throw your
Oxford shirt dress in the trash dressed like a bee,
do you.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
Never has this been more apparent than when Sam and
I were in Chicago and I found out that there
is a like Ralph Laura and restaurant in Chicago that is,
you know, affiliated with like Polar Bar in New York.
So I've been to Polar Bar in New York once.
It's like someone I knew had to call in a
favor because it's impossible to get a recommendation to get
a reservation. And of course everyone is like dressed so quirky,

(57:53):
so quirky, and it's a mix of like gay men
with their three girlfriends and then one straight woman with
three gay mail friends. Like it is very like everyone.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
You know.

Speaker 1 (58:01):
It ranges from like someone turning a full look to
what you're saying, where they're wearing a T shirt but
it looks correct whatever. In Chicago, it was the exact
same restaurant, like the same food, same decor, but everyone
was just dressed midwestern. Yeah, And I was like, damn it,
this is actually altering my experience.

Speaker 3 (58:21):
So here's another great thing that I heard about Chicago
versus New York versus whatever. Somebody told me one time
they were like Every city has its money, right, and
they were like in Boston because of all the universities
in Harvard and all that and my teeth, They're like,
in Boston, intelligence is money. In New York, money is money, right,
Like in La fame is money. Fame is money, yes,

(58:42):
And I think in Chicago, authenticity is money Chicago. I
dressed to go to a bar in Chicago the way
I dressed to in New York. And I'm not even
like the fanciest dresser. But if I put on like
leather pants and a whatever whatever to go, people will
be like, oh, okay, fancy pants. What the fuck do
you think you are? There is no pretension in Chicago.
And I really like that because I think it is

(59:04):
like the more authentic you are, the more people fuck
with you, the more people know they can respect you
and trust you, and then like the farther you get,
I think I think authenticity is the money of Chicago.
That in and Polish lossages.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
Yeah, God, I love Chicago.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
This is very interesting, Like what is the what is
the money of San Francisco.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
It's like, uh, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (59:28):
I mean it's like tech, It's like yeah, maybe influence, yeah,
seed money Also, I feel like the in London it's
like international ness. It's like how international are you? Like
you have to have grown up in three different countries?

Speaker 3 (59:46):
Right, I'm sure? Like I would love to know what
is the money of Maine. I know, like lobsters.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
I don't know the lobsters.

Speaker 3 (59:55):
I think that's my That's my thing about fashion is
I think you wake up, you make a choice, a
strong choice about who you are and what feels good
to you, and you are set.

Speaker 1 (01:00:03):
Here's to it. Here's and ladies, if you're listening, if
you're gonna wear that shirt dress, do something, make a different,
bold choice. You know, it doesn't have to be a tie.
Wear a fedora, you know, you know what, wear legwarmers
with it, like make some crazy choice.

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
My mom which I've always liked this choice. She wears
it as like a cover up to go to the beach.
And I think that's a fun move, very fun. Okay,
so now we should do our final segment, which is
shout outs. We pay homage to the grand straight tradition
of the radio shout out and shout out anything that
we are enjoying. People, places, things, ideas, and we think

(01:00:43):
of them on the spot. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:44):
There always has to be you know, authentic, not to
be so Chicago. Yeah, go first, We'll go first, and
then and then and then you'll go. Sam, do you
have one?

Speaker 2 (01:01:00):
You go first? Can you go? Okay? I can go first? Okay,
I can't tell which direction I want to go in?

Speaker 1 (01:01:05):
Yeah, okay, all right, what's up New Yorkers, bodega frequenters, everywhere.
I want to give a shout out to Hogandaw's butter Pecan.
I recently rediscovered butter pecan for the first time in
probably over a decade, and I made the realization that
what you associate with butter pecan is like a window

(01:01:26):
into your personality, your upbringing, and like your own cultural references.
So one time someone told me that it was Carrie
Bradshaw's favorite ice cream. I actually googled it and cannot
find any proof of that, and I think it might
be completely wrong. That's what I associated with it. So
depending on where you grew up, you're either a pro
butter pecan or an anti butter pecan person. I also
think even genderwise, there's some complication there because I think

(01:01:49):
it seems very feminine butter pecan, but there's also something
like robust about it, like you're not being like baggy
and getting like, you know, a sort of chocolate whirl.
So I'm like, butter Pecan, you know, it's kind of
a white T shirt of ice creams in that you
can make of it what you want. And it's also
both sophisticated and of the people because it's sort of

(01:02:12):
available everywhere, but it like it sort of points to
a higher sophistication, so I guess what I'm saying is
And also, frankly, it's delicious and kind of goes with
everything you compare with any other kind of scoop. So
get out there and get yourself some hoggin does Butter Pecan.

Speaker 2 (01:02:28):
Who Okay, I don't think I've talked about this one yet,
and if I have, I'm gonna jump off a cliff.
Quite frankly, what's up freaks loses some perverts around the globe.
I want to give a huge shout out to the
Paul Rubens documentary Peewee as himself. I watched this the
other night and it was so damn touching and so interesting,

(01:02:52):
and it's always so fun to see someone who is like,
you know, you're so familiar with you think you know,
and then you see how it all played out and
you're like, oh damn, I had no idea. Like, of
course he comes from like a weirdo visual art background.
Like there's so much in Peewee and in that world
that was so smart, and I was so touched by

(01:03:13):
all of it. And it's just crazy to watch. I
don't know, like how just genuinely homophobic the world was
and how it sort of ruined him at multiple points,
and it's so sad and heartbreaking that he wasn't allowed
to just be a gay guy out in the world,
because he would have been an amazing gay guy out

(01:03:33):
in the world. So shout out to the Paul Rubins documentary.
I highly recommend you all watch it and shout out
to Pee Wee. You're incredible. Xoxo Sam.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
Who Sam? Have I told you that I know the
guy who made it Met Wolf.

Speaker 3 (01:03:50):
That documentary was outstanding.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
It's incredible. It's actually funny. I don't think I've said
this on the podcast, but for whatever reason, we have
mutual friend, a very good mutual friend, and so she
has these Shabbat dinners and I'm and that's the only
place I see him, and I always like make small
talk with him. He's like very nice, but I just
like had no idea he was this incredibly successful and

(01:04:15):
incredibly talented and respected filmmaker. I guess I just like
hadn't asked. So this thing happened where this series came out.
That is like one of the best things, one of
the best like documentary is of any kind that I've seen.
And I realized that this person that I've been making
like you know, sort of like conventional small talk with

(01:04:35):
now for three years, I could have the entire time
been like asking him about what it was like to
be the last person to talk to Paul Rubtz.

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
I mean that is so wild. That is wild.

Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
I love Paul Rubins and b B. Herman so much.
When his show was on Broadway, I had just moved
to New York and I bought a like third row
ticket and went by myself, Wow, love his work. I
think his work is so fascinating and so just smart
and interesting and yeah, what a talent. And that really was.

(01:05:06):
It was a brilliant but really sad documentary.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
Yeah it was. It was Okay, Jenny, whenever you.

Speaker 3 (01:05:13):
Bring it home, all right, you guys, what's up? Cool kids?
Who went to Uva, and Nerds who Look Mean and Mary. Today,
I would like to give a shout out to weird Ow.
I recently had reason to revisit his body of work,
and I have to say I always enjoyed him. When
I was younger, I had not realized how smart some

(01:05:36):
of his work is. I did a lot of watching
original music videos that he parodied and then watching his
parody right afterwards. This man was doing a shot for
shot remake of the beat It video. Man had incredible references,
like a surgeon holds up in the like a virgin video.
We have Madonna writhing on a gondola on the canals

(01:05:59):
of Vent and then you've got weird Al on a
gurney that's moving down a hallway in a hospital and
he's writhing at the end of it. Like it's so interesting,
like these really interesting visual bits that just don't even
they're not even part of the song. And also I
think he is such a lovely inspiring tale of like

(01:06:21):
really being yourself. Because there's a million people out there
doing like pop music or some other kind of more
marketable music, and this man was like, I want to
do parody songs while I have well, I play the
accordion and I'm sure a thousand people were like, do
not do that. No one wants that. And it turns

(01:06:41):
out people always want what you have to give. If
it's coming from like the center of your heart. You
can tell what a great time he's having doing these things.
And I just love so much that this man was like,
this is what's inside of me. I'm giving it to
the world and it is the life.

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Wow. Wow, wow, I'm weird out raised me. I love
I mean the song Albuquerque, I would revisit like over
and over and over and over.

Speaker 1 (01:07:05):
I also just love the commitment to comedy, to just
being like this is wordplay, like I am the point
of what I'm doing is to get people to laugh.
I'm not like trying to make some grand political statement
like it's it's almost like going back to the basics
and like going to art school and doing figure drying.

Speaker 3 (01:07:24):
That's a great way to put it. It's like, this
is just fun. Why are you doing this because it's funny.
There is a shot in the beat it video a
thing I also had not seen in like decades, but
where right before the song hasn't even started yet, and
the gang members are all kind of assembling, and one
guy is sitting at a bar and he sees that
the gang members are assembling, so he gets up and
he's sitting next to this woman and he kind of
grabs her by the back of the hair, pulls her

(01:07:44):
hair back, kisses her, and then walks out. And then
in the eat It video, a guy dressed just like
him is sitting at a bar sit an next this woman.
Then it immediately, of course turned to like a bad dummy,
grabs the back of this manikin's head, it pops off,
and then tosses the head to the bar and walks out,

(01:08:05):
And like that is a two second bit. It's not
even part of the song. You do not have to
do that. And I laughed so hard, Like you said
at the commitment, nothing's funnier to me than a lot
of commitment to a tiny thing. Yes, yeah, you know
they had meetings about the mannequin and how to get
it to pop off fast, Like the amount of commitment
for something that was happening before the song even started
for no reason other than it's silly, what.

Speaker 1 (01:08:27):
A delight, And honestly, I think that relates to your
suspicion of shirt dresses because there's a lack of commitment there.

Speaker 2 (01:08:33):
Yeah, all comes back to.

Speaker 3 (01:08:34):
The shirt dress. No fun, there's no playfulness, there's no commitment.
Everything that's missing in a shirt dress, everything you're not
getting from a shirt dress, you're gonna get in a
word out video.

Speaker 2 (01:08:46):
That's yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
Thanks everyone, Yes, thank you so much. First of all,
but tell everyone you know where they can find you,
what's going on, where they can how they can financially
support you trying.

Speaker 3 (01:09:01):
I mean, first and foremost obviously put money into my
son's college fund.

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Of course, and we'll include a link.

Speaker 3 (01:09:07):
We'll have a link, but not his face.

Speaker 2 (01:09:10):
It'll be like yes, no.

Speaker 3 (01:09:14):
I I've been doing a live show, a monthly live
show for a while, not called Jenny Hagel Gives Advice.
It's a really fun show I do. I always have
a different comedy guest every month. But basically what happens
is when audience members come in, they get a couple
of index cards and a pen, and they can write
down questions they want advice on. They put them into
buckets that are at the front of the stage, and
then me and a guest pull the questions out at

(01:09:34):
random and give them advice, and then at the end
of every show, a real therapist comes on stage and
tells us if we did a good job or not. Wow,
it is so fun. The therapists are always very honest.
They're not comedians, they're real human therapists. They're so fun.
And I'm doing that show this July Saturday, July twenty
sixth at Joe's Pub in Manhattan. And if you felt

(01:09:57):
like it'd be really fun, they actually end up being
these really fun because people are very honest and vulnerable
with their questions. I think something about not having to
say it out loud, you write it honestly on a card.
People really will open up and ask really lovely questions,
and it kind of every evening has a kind of
a lovely community vibe to it.

Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
I love that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
Well, that sounds mean, let's get Orna in there, let's
get or folks, we gotta get her.

Speaker 3 (01:10:18):
Yeah, please give me check it out, you guys, this
is such a delight. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
This was so much fun. Thank you so much for
doing it. Yeah, we're both huge fans and this was
really lovely.

Speaker 3 (01:10:27):
Likewise, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
Well then all right, bye bye bye.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
Podcast and now want more, Subscribe to our Patreon for
two extra episodes a month, discord access and more by
heading to patreon dot com. Slash Stradio Lab.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
And for all our visual earners, free full length video
episodes are available on.

Speaker 1 (01:10:46):
Our YouTube now Get back to Work.

Speaker 2 (01:10:48):
Stradia Lab is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money
Players Network and iHeart Podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:10:53):
Created and hosted by George Severs and Sam Taggart.

Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
Executive produced by Will Ferrell, Hans Sonny and Olivia Aguilar,
Produced by Bai Wang, edited and engineered by Adam Avlos.

Speaker 1 (01:11:03):
Artwork by Michael Fails and Matt Gruff.

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
Theme music by Ben Kling