"Prolonged Divorce" w/ Torrey Peters

Today we are putting on our public intellectual hats for Torrey Peters, author of "Detransition, Baby" and whose incredible new book "Stag Dance" is available now. She brings insights that will potentially take years to fully grasp. Things like how all marriages can be straight if the divorce takes long enough. Or how there's no such thing as "the big moment" despite what the mainstream media will try to tell you. Or (and this is potentially the most important) how there's a whole community of nasty discord users who have yet to be brought to light by the proper channels. Well that ends here and now, enjoy the most prestigious episode of podcasting ever made.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:20):
Podcast starts. Now, what's up everyone around the globe. You're
listening to Stradio Lab from a windowless room in Times Square.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
That's right. Welcome to TRL.

Speaker 1 (00:28):
Welcome to TRL. I can hear and sink A bumping
their new hit downstairs.

Speaker 2 (00:35):
So this is our final day of a full week
of Stradio Lab content.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, and a NonStop I feel wistful. I know.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
We've recorded four episodes, We've done a live show. It
was our first ever Lesbian Lab live show, all queer
woman lineup, and instead of straight topics, they brought lesbian topics. Yes,
and we learned about we can say what the three
topics were to say them? Okay, self cancelation. So this
is when you are a lesbian and you start a

(01:08):
small business sort of with the intention of being canceled
for having bad labor practices.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
You get like one complaint and then decide to go on,
I'm sorry.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
To that's right. And it's also like starting a business
is actually more of a means to an end, the
end being getting a conversation going. Yeah, so you want
like a Reddit thread, you want people saying, like thread
the truth about you know, black Cat coffee. So that
was one. Hats was a second topic. So we learned
about flat rim hats and about hey Mama lesbians, and

(01:39):
about how different hats the further back in your head
of bean egoes, the less queer you are. That is
something that was I think positive. Yeah, that was positive
and proven and proven. And then the final topic that
this was the most interesting to me. You want to
say what it was?

Speaker 1 (01:58):
It was porn. This was Ntalie Robert Lightman, and it
was porn as a lesbian export, as pizza is to Italians.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
So she was yes, and so you.

Speaker 1 (02:09):
Know, it's not necessarily always made by Italians, just like
lesbian wan was isn't always made by lesbians, and yet
it's how most people interact with lesbian culture.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
This was fascinating to me because I am so you know,
liberal arts pilled that. I thought the topic was like feminist.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
You're you're I have to say, your Ivy League education
was showing pejorative. I was. It was very I have
to say, it was like rich, it was sort of cam.
It was Kamala coded.

Speaker 2 (02:33):
Okay, thank you for the class analysis. First of all,
I really liberal. I appreciate it, and I'm self canceling
in a lesbian way for my privilege because.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
I heard porn as our greate sector. I said, I
know exactly what you're talking.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
And in retrospect, I completely understand what she was saying.
She was saying the sort of male gays lesbian poor
and literally the poster of two women kissing them guys
have in their dorms. Yeah, that is like, I mean,
that's like an art cultural export of lesbianism that people
from all can unities can understand. What I heard was like,
you know, sort of queer non binary porn where then

(03:09):
all the performers also give a talk at Oberlin and
the and then the talk is like and then there's
like people asking questions at the talk and they're like
holding space.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
It was really funny. You were like, oh, porn stars,
you know, like people that do talks at colleges university
And it's like, I really don't think that's what it is.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, but I love that.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
It's a beautiful it's a beautiful perspective that you bring.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
Yeah, and you know what that also is a lesbian
cultural expert. It's just as like a less successful one
because it hasn't really reached the heights of the sort
of more male gayzyya.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, it was in the pizza metaphor you were forgetting
sort of about dominoes.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
I was thinking more like Roberta's kind of a hot
honey and sage, whereas Natalie was saying like pep baroni.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
Yeah, I want to say and I.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Do want to actually shout out. So our friend Andrew
long Cheu was supposed to do the show ended up
not being able to make it. But her topic was
going to be hands as a lesbian topic, which I
think is so rich.

Speaker 1 (04:06):
Well, it's very rich, and I would love to know
where she was coming from.

Speaker 2 (04:08):
You but you like get well you.

Speaker 1 (04:11):
Get that they have hands.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
No, but it's like, you know, hands are much more
of an important part of lesbian sex. I think is
where it's coming from.

Speaker 1 (04:20):
March. We're in Times Square.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
And like as a it's like hands. I think this
is what she was going for, hands as a sex organ.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Oh well, we'll have to ask, because I don't want
to make assumptions because I don't know. Yeah, maybe that's
not what she was going for.

Speaker 2 (04:37):
Okay, maybe I'm once again thinking too academically.

Speaker 3 (04:41):
You know, maybe she was like the lesbians work with
their hands. Oh, that's also probably true.

Speaker 1 (04:46):
You know, who knows it could be any I'm not
here to make assumptions. I'm here to listen.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
We were being so respectful and open minded last night,
but we had one like cheap joke that we did
with the U haul, which, by the way, yeah, I'm.

Speaker 1 (05:00):
Ready to be defensive. Here she goes, I'm ready to
be defensive. We put the U haul joke in the
slide show because we were like, it's time to talk
about this classic classic stereotypes.

Speaker 2 (05:11):
But then all three of them are like Jesus Christ,
like why.

Speaker 1 (05:14):
Would you put this in? And it was like, because
I'm curious, how are you thinking about classic stereotype? Because
gay car stereotype? It is like it's both embarrassing and
annoying and true. And so I'm like, how do you
guys feel about it?

Speaker 2 (05:29):
Yeah, but say love.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
I want to say that. As our string of records
in New York comes to a near close, that's right.
I feel a little bit. I have that thing where
I'm like, did I say everything? And even though we
slept two recordings today, I think back and I'm like,
you know, when a little kid is like really excited
to do their dance for the parents, and then the
parents are like, okay, dance and they don't move at all.
I feel like that's what I did. I feel like

(05:53):
I was like, I'm so excited to fucking show them
everything I've got, and then as soon as they're like,
okay recording, I'm like, so it do you guys like
blue or green better?

Speaker 2 (06:02):
Don't you think though, that the concept of the big
moment is like a straight thing. And actually the more
queer sensibility is that it's just all of performance.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Well, that's your last your theory life is a cabaret.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
Right, It's like life is a cabaret. It's not that
life is preparation for the big.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
The stage doesn't end when samas not end exactly.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
So it's like if it's like the director yell's cut,
that doesn't mean you're like, fuck, I didn't do what
I was going to do. It's like, I'm going to
do it now. I don't give a shit if the
cameras are going to catch it.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Yeah. I think that's true.

Speaker 2 (06:36):
And we have to bring in our guests because we
are absolutely edging her as always.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
As always, this is truly exciting.

Speaker 2 (06:42):
I'm really excited I'm excited.

Speaker 1 (06:44):
I'm nervous. I feel that. You know, we have prestigious
guests sometimes, by the way, all the time, all the
time we are.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
We love having prestigious guests, and they love doing the podcast.
Let's just want to start there. It's actually like.

Speaker 1 (07:00):
And not to be sort of animal farm coded, but
some persigious guests, some more prestigious than others.

Speaker 2 (07:04):
That's true. And I would say this one's like in
the top tier being prestigious.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Yeah, and so while all are prestigious, some are more
presigious than others, and this is our most prestigious.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Yeah, oh my god. Okay, Well, you know her from
her debut smash hit novel Detransition Baby, you know her
from her new book stag Dance, and you know her
as the guest of this episode of Straighter Lab. Please
welcome Tory Peters. Hi, Hi, what do you think of
her intro?

Speaker 4 (07:31):
To be honest, I was very interested in your interpretations
of lesbian culture.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
Yeah, I could see you. We were really like torturing
you because we were saying all these things that we
want your toe.

Speaker 4 (07:40):
I wanted to jump in on. Yeah. Okay, thoughts, Well,
I think you're correct.

Speaker 2 (07:45):
About Hans Okay, do you think.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
Yeah, I think it was a sex thing. I don't
think I don't think anyone's gonna be a funded by that.
You don't have to self cancel.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
I have to say it was as I'm currently you know,
we unpack the podcast as we record the podcast, that's
part of it. As I sit in the middle seat,
I was finding myself not able to look at you
for approval and reactions, so I had no the whole time.
I was really flying blind.

Speaker 2 (08:11):
I was being very supportive. Yeah, thumbs up, big smile.

Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, it's really helpful to know, because I was like,
what if we're bombing and I can't I.

Speaker 4 (08:20):
Was wondering why you weren't making eye contact. I was waiting,
ignoring me.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
I was really focused in on George.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
And then what do you think about generally self cancelate,
like the idea that the lesbian small businesses started from
THEE I mean.

Speaker 4 (08:37):
As you were saying that, I was like, oh, actually
that is something that I think about, like this, I'm
wearing this jacket, for instance, and it's I don't know
if the owner of the company is a lesbian. I
don't want to assume, but there's something kind of lesbian
Kamala about the marketing of this it's an argent.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
Jacket, what was the marketing of it?

Speaker 4 (08:55):
And well, actually, Kamala, I think is one of their
I think like a pink power suit. And I was like,
I want I want exactly that to be like I
want to blend in on my book tour. So I
got like I was like what. I asked some some
fast people like what should I get and they're like, well,
this is the this is the thing in which nobody
will have an opinion about your suits, and then.

Speaker 2 (09:16):
Being like, yeah, you don't want to be marked as
like anything.

Speaker 4 (09:21):
I want like nobody to notice.

Speaker 2 (09:23):
It is your t shirts. Does your T shirt say
tea for tea? It does, And you don't want to
be you don't want to be worked as other in anyway.

Speaker 4 (09:31):
That was saying that was an air dressing air today.
Yeah no, But I felt like like I want everybody
to use my press photos. Basically I have good press
photos and I found if I wore interesting clothing my
last tour, it would be like these terrible candids that
for whatever reason, especially Italian photographers, love taking awful photos

(09:54):
of me.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
There was a conspiracy photographers want.

Speaker 4 (10:00):
I was just chased by like untalented Italian povers taking
terrible candidates and then doing SEO optimization on their terrible pictures.
And I think it was because they were like, oh,
this is the this is a different outfit than the
press outfit than the press photos, so we'll do this.

Speaker 1 (10:18):
They felt like they were being unique.

Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yeah, exactly, So now I want to wear something that's
like super bland, and if you were like, what's a
good photo, they go with my press photo that is
just available rather than you know, how bland in my
bland terrible candidate.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
I did notice that in the photo on the jacket
of the book, you are wearing a white pantsuit.

Speaker 4 (10:41):
I got rid of that one in the second printing to.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
Wait. So you thought that, because that, to me is
very like Hillary Clinton meets like Annette Benning doing actors
on acting.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
Yes, I was, that was like kind of what I
was going for. And there's like such a such a
history of like writers wearing white suits like Tom woll Well,
Steve Martin's not really those are those are my two
loads stocks in dressing. But I was like, yeah, I
think this is going to be my suit era. But

(11:16):
I've had to like have a couple of like restarts
on what I want the suit to do.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
Okay, you, so then what is the new photo.

Speaker 4 (11:23):
The new photo is going to be my bland suit.
I switched it out. I mean it's a good photo
of me. But you don't really even notice a suit.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
That one is very suit you notice.

Speaker 4 (11:32):
Yeah, it's like your walk. You're You're doing a suit
thing in the photo, and I'm sort of secondary to
the suit.

Speaker 1 (11:38):
This is You're bringing up something I find really interesting,
which is when you're launching sort of a new personal era,
you have to make at least three missteps. First. Yeah,
like I've been trying to go cowboy and I'm not
doing it today. But I was like I leaned in
way too hard. At first. I was like, I'm going
full cowboy, Like I'm wearing like wranglers, cowboy boots, tucking

(11:59):
the shirt and wearing a belt. And then it was
like it was like confusing, and then I pull back, Yeah,
like you can wear one. Yeah, you can't do full cowboy.
It's silly.

Speaker 4 (12:08):
I feel that way about about the white suit. I mean,
I'll do that very occasionally. I think it's like a
special thing, but I think it's like the first printing
is a white suit, and then we we pull back.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
You got to see how far you can go? Yeah,
take one thing off.

Speaker 4 (12:22):
Yeah, but that was like the I think they were like,
we're doing a reprint, and I was like, I have
a new author.

Speaker 1 (12:26):
Fun does the idea of a book tour? Is that
stressful or fun?

Speaker 4 (12:33):
It's it's fun for the first three weeks, and then
you're it's not so much as stress as you're tired
of yourself. Sure, like you get sort of they don't
people want the greatest hits, you know, but like the
greatest hits for you are like three jokes and like
two ideas, and then you're like and then if you

(12:53):
deviate actually from it, it's usually the terrible nights is
when you when you think like, oh, I have a
I have a great new idea that I'm going to
try out this audience and it's like that was a
that was that was a bad Isn't it.

Speaker 2 (13:04):
Also self perpetuating thing where like the people that are
interviewing you do their research, hear what you said in
other interviews, and then they're like, we heard when you
were a kid, you had like a favorite doll that
you played with, and so then you have to tell
the story again and again.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yes, oh that's so interesting. I also realized talking about
the podcast, when we make the podcast, me asking is
it fun or boring to go on book tour, it
was so like little kid.

Speaker 2 (13:27):
Reporter, you're doing like Nicola, like use for kids, Nicol.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
So what's your favorite candy? Like it was so.

Speaker 4 (13:35):
But that was this is like that you were just
saying in the intar, the big moment where you're like
do you like blue or gay? You know, it's like
you're just doing it. This is part of the process
and now you're doing it. And I relate to it
because when I was like eight years old, I got
a chance to interview Jane Jane Goodall, the famous primatologist,

(13:56):
and I panicked and I said, so you like monkey
And it was like exactly. This was like I had
thought about it, like this is gonna be my moment,
It's gonna be it, and that's just what came out,
you know. So yeah, book tours kind of kind sometimes boring.

Speaker 1 (14:15):
I found that as an interviewer, you know, my child
like wonder can be really charming, but as an interviewer,
it can also be quite confusing. I think it's sort
of like what are we doing here? You know?

Speaker 2 (14:27):
But I sort of think I think someone being interviewed ultimately,
not to project us on to you, but generally speaking,
someone being interviewed just wants to talk about what they
want to talk about, sure, and so giving them the
most like nothing question is like the best thing you
can do, because then they can just like monologue.

Speaker 4 (14:44):
Yeah, that's the advanced interviewing.

Speaker 2 (14:46):
It's yeah, exactly, super So what we've learned so far
is don't do your research because you will ask the
same questions, and in fact, don't ask questions because that
is boxing the interviewing in.

Speaker 4 (14:56):
Yeah, I felt your first ones fun or no was?
I was like, well, this is my moment to just monologue.

Speaker 1 (15:05):
The word fun is so funny to ask like an
author is writing fun.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
Okay, here's a final, final stupid question for you.

Speaker 1 (15:17):
I have a second final stupid question.

Speaker 2 (15:19):
We're doing such a good job. Yeah, okay, so my
question for you is, like, I'm sure people are asking
a lot of annoying questions. So my question for you is,
what is like the question you wish someone would ask
you that no one ever would.

Speaker 4 (15:31):
Then sorry, that question I get like every time.

Speaker 1 (15:34):
George, I was gonna be a bit I was about
to say, I bet you get really.

Speaker 4 (15:38):
Yeah, and then it's really hard because I'm like, I'm like, well,
that question is actually a very common one. And then
also you have to like calm up each time my
new question that that because well last time that I
got asked this question, which is, you know, a few
days ago, I came up with like this as the
thing I wish that somebody would ask me. And then
like by the end, you're just like kind of making up,

(15:59):
like and I'm like, I wish people would ask me
about my shoes more like because everything else can ask
because of that specific question I have.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
It's the theory. And maybe this is completely wrong. Do
you think it's because people are like uncomfortable with asking
about big quotes trans issues that they don't want to
say the wrong thing, and so then they want you
to tell them what to say.

Speaker 4 (16:20):
Maybe that's it. There's two things that happens. And the
other thing that happens is that people are very proud
to have not asked about TRANSI shoes for an entire interview.
So but like the how proud they are that like
we've only talked about writing in this interview, Like I
don't even care that you're trans. You know, like you
can like feel that so heavily and like as as

(16:44):
they're like getting to the end, and it's like, and
you've also only talked about writing, and we're kind of
waiting for you to bring it up, but also we're
proud that we never brought it up. Is like that
that like slowly pressurizes that like stand off, you know
that you're that I'm in and so I oftentimes will
just break and be like I'm trans.

Speaker 2 (17:05):
It's like checkofs, check offs, check offs, trans representation. It's
like is it going to be brought up?

Speaker 4 (17:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (17:12):
Wow, okay, so what was your stupid question? And then
we'll go into smart Yeah this is a smart part.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Then we'll go into the smart section. I love the book,
you know, I was. I think I didn't expect how
horny it would be. To be honest, I was so
I thought it was so horny.

Speaker 4 (17:30):
I would agree, but I felt, did you read my
first book? It was not?

Speaker 1 (17:39):
I think was on here. I'd be like, no, but
you I did read?

Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (17:42):
But no, that that's interesting because I feel like the
first book was hornier, like you know, like they she
she gets like our ribbon tied around her junk, and
maybe maybe you were just like that was sad.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
I did not like it, like the bag dance in particular,
like the big guy like being like being like treat
me as the woman. I was like, yeah, yeah, that's
like so hot.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, I mean I think it was just the horniness
that like you related to more than more.

Speaker 1 (18:16):
I was like literally, I was like, oh, this is
why I like to hook up with bye guys, because
they're like treating they're.

Speaker 4 (18:21):
So and then it's so like like they're so titillated
and excited by like look what I'm doing now. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (18:27):
So, and then my dumb question was, do you think
writing is the horniest medium?

Speaker 2 (18:33):
Yeah, ranked.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Horning.

Speaker 4 (18:37):
If it is horny, it's like a masturbatory horning. It's
like a very like you're like alone, kind of pleased
with yourself, you know, and what you're like, I did it, Oh,
I liked it. You know, Like that's the the scene
maybe that you're thinking about in the Lumberjack thing where
where the babions the o fish Lumberjack is hooking up

(19:00):
with his boss and like a shanty. I wrote that
one that day, and I was like, I don't know
if I was like maybe it was a little turned on,
but I also just like like so smugly pleased with
myself that there was something very masturbatory about my emotions
that day. That was like I left that day of
writing as though I had just like taken odder on,

(19:21):
like gone into like a per porn wormhole for six hours.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
Are you ever like, Okay, this is too horny? You
have to pull back, Like it's not it's it's too horny,
it's too hot.

Speaker 4 (19:30):
No, like usually usually it if it is. If it
is that, then I am happy. And it's like maybe
in like later edits, but like anything that's like too much,
I like to sit with the too much for a while. Yeah,
and have somebody else tell me that made them uncomfortable. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:50):
I loved it.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
I felt like, Yeah, a lot of the horniness I
was relating to and the sort of like being like
why am I doing this and then being like but
I can't stop.

Speaker 4 (20:00):
Yeah, I mean that that is that's for me, is
like the kind of horness, like the confusing horniness I
think is like a go to uh both something I
go to, I guess emotionally confused horniness. I'm just very
comfortable there. And and I also think it's like like
I like characters who actually like don't totally understand what's

(20:21):
happening to them, you know. Yeah, And I feel like
hornedness is is a it is something that like happens
to you sometimes rather than something you do.

Speaker 2 (20:30):
Yeah, it's a curse. Then it's terminal.

Speaker 1 (20:32):
There are times when I've done like I'm walking to
do something and I'm like, turn around, turn around, don't
do this. Yeah, And it's like, but I have to.
I won't rest until I go do this. I'm too
horn I have to put my life in danger to
go do this.

Speaker 4 (20:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:48):
No, it really feels like you're in train spotting, but
it's instead of heroin, it's horniness.

Speaker 1 (20:55):
It's not right.

Speaker 2 (20:56):
Yeah, there's also I think similarly how your characters deal
with their horniness. I also think the way they deal
with their own cruelty is kind of been the same way.
Like it they almost can't help it and can't understand
where it's coming from, and they're half conscious of it,
and they're almost like just conscious enough to feel guilty

(21:16):
and self loathing about it.

Speaker 4 (21:18):
Yeah, I think we've entered the smart smart question.

Speaker 2 (21:25):
It's like, are you yeah? Was that something like was
the almost like the relationship between cruelty and horniness something
that was in your mind?

Speaker 4 (21:33):
Well, I think cruelty is very intimate, right, Like I
think that like when you don't know somebody and you
do something like awful to them, that's just like sort
of brutality. But that like when you know somebody and
you like know their like vulnerabilities and there and and
like the like the soft parts of them, and then
you like kind of can't help yourself maybe because like

(21:54):
you know them so well and you're just so like
frustrated or irritated or no, that you just like go
for those vulnerable areas. I mean, that's very intimate, right
to know somebody so so in all their soft parts.
So I think that, like, and that's exactly kind of
what you want to know if you're horning too. So
there is like the cruelty in the horningsh.

Speaker 2 (22:14):
My cruelty is finding the emotional g spot.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 4 (22:18):
I'm going to borrow that for when I go on tour.
I'm going to the UK. I think that I'll still
love it.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
Oh my god. Yeah you were telling me that, I
you know what, You're gonna have a lovely time in London,
go to the West End, see some plays. What a time.

Speaker 1 (22:33):
The other thing, this is more more of a reflection
of my stupidity rather than a question. Okay, you know confidence,
Well you know that meme.

Speaker 4 (22:47):
It's a good start.

Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, you know that meme. That's like me as someone
who has only seen Trolls two World Tour watching you know,
The Godfather. Wow, this is just like it were totally.
I feel like the only like books that I read
like that are about like like hard like fiction books

(23:09):
about gender are like Ursula kay La Gwinn. So the
whole time I was like, like, especially like the first one,
I was like, wow, this is just like.

Speaker 4 (23:17):
I will take it. I mean as opposed to Trulls too.
If you're like, this is just like Ursula Gwinn, Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah I was.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
I liked I felt like it was fun that you
were going so big and like sci fi with it.

Speaker 4 (23:32):
Like yeah, so like I was. I I wanted to
do the promise for people haven't read it is that's
each piece is like in a different genre and and
that one. The first one is like a speculative fiction
dystopian one about like a gender apocalypse. But I think
it was also like that was the first one that

(23:53):
I wrote, and it was because, uh, I think I
was like it was like twenty sixteen and like Last
of Us the video game come out, it was like
the Road and also ours thing, and I was like, what
genre is everybody into in twenty sixteen, and it was
kind of yeah, like grimy, grimy, pust apocalyptic stuff, whereas
like now I think I would I would never do

(24:15):
like a pandemic.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Yeah right, Oh so that was written free.

Speaker 2 (24:19):
I'm sure you've talked about this, but yeah, it was
written pre pandemic.

Speaker 4 (24:22):
Its pre pandemic. Yeah, which, like I think is people
are always like, why don't you expand that one into
a full novel. I don't think you want me to
do that, Like, I think you've kind of gone through it.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
Yourself totally totally. Although we were saying, how now it's
been long enough. Actually Harry was saying this, right, someone
was saying, like it's now been long enough that people
are craving narratives about twenty twenty, not just the pandemic,
but like even just like where the culture was in
twenty twenty, and how we were also unmoored from reality

(24:51):
because we were, you know, just like undergoing this like
insane experience all together but also alone. Yeah, So I'm
almost like it's like to pick something like that back
up now or even in like another three years.

Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (25:06):
I mean I felt actually like the other day when
when Trump announced all of his teriffs, like and I
felt the world kind of stopped for like a day.
I had like a real like what does this feel like?
What does this feel like? And then I was like, oh,
it feels like March twenty twenty, where everyone's like is
the economy crashing? Do I have a job?

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Like?

Speaker 4 (25:25):
Should I stock like fill up my bathtub or whatever
weird shit we were doing in twenty twenty. I had
like a real like I called it like a snow day,
like I don't remember what it was last week was
like it was like a pandemic snow day, where I
was like, is the world over? And I kind of
wish that, like, yeah, that that had there had been
like more culture about that weird feeling, because I feel like,
apparently we're gonna just keep on having.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
Well that's the thing. I think microdosing March twenty twenty.
It's like every few days you just go through like
a less intense version of it, and it's it's like, yeah,
shorter and more painful rather than this like long drawn
out thing. Okay, I'm like so eager to get on
the topic. We should do our fst SEC. What's our
first second? Okay, Tori Sam, do you want to Our.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
First segment is called straight Shooters, and in this segment,
we're going to ask you a series of rapidfier questions
to gauge your familiarity with and complicity and straight culture.
It's basically this thing or this other thing. And the
only rule is you can't ask any followup questions or
we'll scream at you.

Speaker 4 (26:22):
Can I ask a pre question?

Speaker 1 (26:24):
I think that might be a follow up question. And
while you I wanted to say yes to, I have
to be no.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
I was and real yeah, I also attempted to say
yes because I was like, well, she's an author.

Speaker 1 (26:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (26:38):
I was like, well, if I'm putting as much gravitas
as I can to get away with to break the
rules of your podcast.

Speaker 2 (26:47):
Should I sorry? Okay, We'll start simple being the goat
or sinking a boat.

Speaker 1 (26:53):
Sinking a boat, okay, a dream come true? Or a
steaming pot of stew.

Speaker 4 (26:58):
A steaming pot of stew does.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
Sne within reach? Or a headline that says impeach, I.

Speaker 4 (27:06):
Like design with's in reach?

Speaker 1 (27:09):
A task that's the sophician or a rash that's cyphilician.

Speaker 4 (27:14):
Oh, probably a taskian, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (27:19):
Thank you, okay, being queer and in stem or drinking
beer but being fem Oh.

Speaker 4 (27:29):
Oh wow, I'm gonna say drinking beer and being.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
Fum Okay, okay, Lou tove Lou or mama rou What
was the middle one?

Speaker 4 (27:42):
I don't know what that blows?

Speaker 1 (27:44):
Actual pronouncing of the name you answer to follow up?
Got here? A constitutional crisis?

Speaker 2 (27:54):
This is this is twenty twenty all over again.

Speaker 1 (27:57):
People are hitting the streets.

Speaker 2 (27:59):
Well, I'll now, Lou, let's see which one do I
want to do? The taming of the shrew or defaming Lucy.

Speaker 1 (28:07):
Lou face card never declines, Oh my god, that's Ray Fines.

Speaker 4 (28:15):
I like Ray Fines. I'm excited to see Ray Fines.
Oh my god, it's Refines.

Speaker 1 (28:19):
I'm actually excited to see Ray Fines as well. Whenever
I see him, I'm like wow, that's very fine.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
And also there's you know what ray Fines is to me.
You know how people when you know how to say
luev right, you get to have like a step up
over like sixty percent.

Speaker 2 (28:33):
Yeah, well yeah, like that's you and rape.

Speaker 1 (28:37):
Literally like I see that name and I go, I
know how to say that.

Speaker 2 (28:41):
Okay, so because it's not spelled like it's spelled ralph,
but it's rafe.

Speaker 1 (28:45):
Yeah, it's spelled Ralph Fiennes. And you say, you say rain.

Speaker 4 (28:50):
Yeah, you're in the no.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah, so Jory, we rank each gets performance on a
scale of zero to one thousand doves and or zero
to one thousand. We have decided based on based on
two Gaga songs to songs. I have to say. Here's
what I'm struggling with. I'm like, do we reward the
boldness of asking a followup question because she beat us
at her own game? Or do we punish because because

(29:14):
she did the one thing that.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
Well, you know, I believe a wise man once said
that cruelty is the g spot.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
So oh my god, you did that to us. You
like found you found our one weakness and used it
against us.

Speaker 4 (29:28):
I made it pleasurable.

Speaker 1 (29:29):
Yeah, yeah, literally, I think we should punish.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
Oh, okay, we should punish. Okay, So I would say,
without the follow up question, it would have been nine
hundred and thirty doves.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, that's fact.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
But with the deduction of six hundreds, six hundreds, it's
gonna go ahead and be three hundred and thirty five duffs.
I'm so sorry, Tori. That's not a passing.

Speaker 4 (29:53):
But what is that? And what is that in blades
of grass?

Speaker 2 (29:56):
Okay, So there's inflation when it comes to places of grass,
the grass I get it's more closer to like six fifty.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
It's more closer to six fifty.

Speaker 4 (30:07):
Yeah, that's a good change. You're like in other countries.
I'll do all right.

Speaker 2 (30:13):
When you're in the UK, you can pay. Yeah, you're
actually somehow making Yeah, certainly have more than a I'm.

Speaker 4 (30:21):
So glad I did this podcast before I went over.

Speaker 1 (30:25):
Oh my god, horse, should we get into the straight
I would love to hear so behind the scenes. George
knows the topic. I do not, and I'm so excited
to hear what street topic is and what's straight about it.

Speaker 4 (30:36):
So it's a working theory. But my straight topic is
prolonged divorce and my theory is that you don't know
if you're in a gay marriage or a straight marriage
until you get divorced, and it is how long how
prolonged your divorces that determines how gay or straight you're

(30:59):
you're your.

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Marriages, and the more.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
The straighter is, the more prolonged your marriage that you
can And it doesn't really matter your gender or how
you identify. It's like it's like when you don't know
and then you get divorced and if it goes on
like two years, you were in a straight march of
all time.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
Because the queer thing is being like I don't I
take my possessions, I don't care, Like.

Speaker 4 (31:23):
No, I don't think it's even like that, Like I
think like but I think it's like I think it's
like you just can't let go. And I think it's
just like you can't let go because like of you're
just like have ended up very headot in your thing
where like one person knows how to cook, one person
knows where like the drain on the sink is, and
you can't leave each other because you're like, how am

(31:45):
I going to drain the sink without this person? How
am I going to turn on the stove or do
all these things and so you just you just you
dry it out forever. And because I'm I'm forty three
now and I'm I'm like, I had one round of
well I to divorce myself, but like a round of
divorces with a like age thirty and now. And I

(32:07):
think it was mostly like queer ish people who are
getting divorced at thirty, where they were like usually discovering
they were queer or something and they're like, oh, I
gotta go. And now it's like straight people in my
life in their forties and they are just trying it
out four years and I'm just like and everything that
they do is so staright, just like you can just

(32:28):
stop this, just stop it.

Speaker 2 (32:31):
Don't you think it has to do with like the
more you buy into the institution, for lack of a
better word, the more violent it is to break it apart,
because it's like, yes, the more you believe in marriage,
the more difficult it is to step away from it,
like you have literally it's all been leading to that.

Speaker 4 (32:48):
Yeah, yeah, And I think that's actually what drives me
crazy about this is like every like just get away
from each other, like just you don't need this, like
you'll be happier and like, and they just can't see
they can't see that like it needs to end. You're
torturing each other, and there's something like I'm just like,
just like this what is happening is like straightness is

(33:09):
torturing you all rather than you know, even each other
are torturing each other. And I've noticed it actually, like again,
like it doesn't even have to be straight people, Like
there's some some gay marriage couples that I know where
I'm just like, the way you're doing this is like
you've you've believed in it too much. You've like entered
into straightness and it's and I didn't know it the

(33:33):
whole time you were together, but now that you're divorcing,
I see that you were in a straight marriage all totally.

Speaker 2 (33:37):
I actually, I think more broadly gay you know, since
gay people have been able to get married, there are
there is a spectrum of on the one side, gay
people almost like wanting to emulate straight people and on
the other side being like excited to do something new
with this new right, you know what I mean. And

(33:59):
so it's like there's a spectrum of straight to gay
marriage within gay marriage.

Speaker 4 (34:05):
I agree with you. Wow, I agree with that, And
I mean I even think like you were you were
saying that like on a previous show that you had
you had classified what.

Speaker 2 (34:14):
Was it, divorces Lesbian marriage is straight, and like staying
together without getting divorced is gay male, right because they're like.

Speaker 1 (34:24):
But like they don't hook up anymore.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, Like staying in an happy marriage basically is gay
male because they're all open, so they don't feel the
need to escape because they just like can't escape every
night basically, yeah, but just like come home and resent
their husband. And of course the classic thing, my favorite
thing when it's a gay couple and they're like in
a fight, another person enters the room and one of
the husbands goes, oh, look there's your boyfriend.

Speaker 4 (34:48):
But see, to me, that is like that even Okay,
So let's if you just take that, like gay couple
not having sex together forever, that is either like the
most kind of like oh you've like solved marriage, like
you are like the most enlightened thing, or it's actually
like you are the you have like reverted to such
straightness that yeah, or even like the Catholic church in

(35:11):
like the fifteen hundreds, like divorce does not exist for you.
You just have to live with each other, and like
and like dream one day of like how could we
possibly separate? It's unthinkable. God does not allow it, you know,
And it's like that's the straightest, the straightest you could
possibly be, is two gay men living together.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
It is interesting. It's always like obviously there's no right answer,
but I'm sort of like is that better? Like there's
so many guys Ryan, like could you just break up?
Like let's call it, Like it would be so much
better if you just broke up.

Speaker 2 (35:47):
It is interesting how that is almost the default for
long term GI guy relationships. Yeah, where then everyone under
their breath is like yeah, they're always like this.

Speaker 4 (35:54):
It's it is and like the even the bickering that
you that you just said that there as your boyfriend
or whatever. It's like that you just stage that with
like slightly different actors and you're like, oh, this is
this is the most conservative like yeah, like British period
that we're watching, you know.

Speaker 2 (36:14):
Yeah, you know, I'm finding this really interesting because Okay,
so basically is finality gay or straight? I think it's
like a larger question and out of go ahead.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Well, I think finality is more straight, to be honest,
and I think that's why they make it last longer,
because they know when it's over it's actually over, whereas
when gay people are breaking up, they are like, we're divorced,
it's over, but we still get lunch every three months.

Speaker 2 (36:40):
Rare, right, So finality is straight and that there's a
gravity to it that straight people are afraid of. They're like,
I will do anything but finality. Yes. Yeah, So in
their fight against finality, they are like hurting themselves.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yeah when they could, they could. Sort of life is
a cabaret thing, you know. Gay people know when the
cameras are off the stage, you're still on stage, and
so you know, when the marriage is over, you're still
gonna have a relationship with a person. It's just a
different relationship where the straight people are like when the
cameras are off, I'm off stage.

Speaker 2 (37:15):
God.

Speaker 4 (37:15):
But I also think that the willingness to be final
would be gay, like a willingness to like to lean
in and be like, I'm breaking ties and I'm changing everything.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
To make a stag I am.

Speaker 4 (37:26):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, like everything's new about me now, Like
that that is that that well, it's.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Like I'm wearing the They're literally debuting like a I'm
divorced era, and then they're like, actually, I'm pulling back.

Speaker 1 (37:40):
I'm not fully out.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
Well, there's also something I think like gay people, because
they kind of have this reverence for like a diva,
a straight woman who like a divorce a. I almost
think like to be divorced is so fabulous, whereas like
for a sort of like a straight woman who married
her high school sweetheart, it's such a sign of failure.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
It is a real sign of failure. I mean, to
be divorced in like the Sexlent City universe is fabulous.
Well that is, of course, but I do think in
like normal world it can be quite difficult.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
What do you think of the recent And you cannot
answer this if you don't want to comment on your peers,
But there's been sort of a recent rise in like
divorce literature. Yeah, mostly from women. I would say, yeah,
in my experience, Like, what do you think that is about?

Speaker 4 (38:28):
Well, it was like, I mean that was like the detransition.
Maybe my first book was dedicated to divorces women. Oh yes, yeah,
So it was like I felt like I was very
much a part of this like divorce thing, and like
you know, kind of what I was saying is like
divorce is a transition in the same way that like
you know, because you you live your life a certain
way and then you and then you make a decision

(38:50):
and then you have to like go forward and not
get bitter. And also you can't just like go get
married again in the same way with the same illusions,
otherwise you're gonna end divorced you And so I was like, oh,
like we can all understand each other, and I but
I feel that this is actually and so I was like, oh,
we can, we can build bridges, we can understand each other,

(39:12):
and like actually, like you can like divorce straight system
and you can sort of be trans in a little
bit of your way. But this is actually sort of
the twenty twenties culture that that like I feel like
maybe Hari was talking about that you were talking about,
Like I feel like that actually now to me feels
like a little bit naive, like this this sort of

(39:35):
like oh, we can all just can kind of like
understand and take responsibility for our for our actions and
like not lie to each other. Like I think that
that's like not true for like having watched people that
now get divorced. I'm like, oh no, you're just going
to continue to lie to each other. And so some degree,
like for me, like watching like trans shit over like
the last four years is like, oh no, this is

(39:57):
like like you can understand trans people, and actually it's
not gonna it's not going to make anything any better.
So I'm like a little bit like down on divorce literature,
right yeah, though I think there's like lots of good
books that do it. I'm sort of like it's like
I actually don't want to reread the whole like Ferranti series,
which like in twenty twenties you've been like do you

(40:17):
want to reread Fernto? I'd be like any day, all
the time, I'll do it. I'm like I actually want
like more things burned down now than I want it.

Speaker 1 (40:25):
Than I want Like yeah, Like.

Speaker 2 (40:28):
So you're sort of you've turned on divorce as an
optimistic Yeah yeah, kind of.

Speaker 4 (40:35):
Yeah, like and I don't know what replaces it, but
but sort of like oh, you can just kind of
like go through this ritual take stock of like what
you want and who you are, and that's going to
be like enough to like move forward. I like don't
at this moment, like I sort of don't believe it,
Like I feel like, oh, you you something more than

(40:56):
that needs to happen like that, and and I and
in that metaphor of like divorce and transition, like I
also think that like it goes across for a transition,
where like it was a there was a while was like,
oh you just transition and then you and then you
can live your life as you want. It's like that's
not enough anymore.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
Well that was the plot of Amelia Perez.

Speaker 2 (41:14):
Ye, that's actually not the plot of Amelia Prez if
you remember the ending.

Speaker 1 (41:19):
But well, I think, but I think what she's saying
is the plot where it's like you think you can.

Speaker 2 (41:25):
You yeah, the critique is the plot of Amelia Press
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (41:30):
And then you I haven't seen that. I've only watched
like clips of it, but I understand that somebody falls
down the mountain.

Speaker 1 (41:37):
Go ahead and fall down the mountain and explode.

Speaker 2 (41:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
She explodes the best way for any movie to end.
And I actually think more movies should end that way.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
It's so complicated. I've spent so much time thinking about Amelia.

Speaker 4 (41:47):
Perez from I started watching it on a plane, and
I was just like, this isn't the place, yeah, for
this movie and for me, and like and I got
when it started this tour, I got so many again
not to be like so many questions are the same,
but I got a lot of them, like what you
think of Amelia Prez. And I was like halfway through
watching on a plane, kind of not understanding what was

(42:09):
going on, and I was like, and then I'm going
to go in like a pine about this movie, totally
not understanding the edited version of it. So I just
I turned it off and I haven't returned to it.

Speaker 2 (42:19):
I have to say, it's interesting that there's this idea
of trans backlash against Amelia Press, because every trans person
I know has opted out of seeing it, and they've
been very much like you know, I'm not at a
place where I can watch that right now, Like it's
I actually think the backlash is almost like manufactured by
sis people who are guilty about watching it or something.

(42:42):
And then like imagine an imaginary like mob of trans
people that are mad at Amelia Press.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Yeah, I think there's something to that. Yeah, there the
backlash is like I'm like, okay, like it does ye
are doing here.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
It almost reminds me of my favorite topic, which is
the women that got sent to space and how we're
at a place where like something like that, which in
twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen would be like the big
news of the day. No one cares enough either to
be empowered by it or to be angry about it. Yeah,
it's just a numbness. It's just like a numbness. Like
don't can't you imagine like a time in like twenty

(43:18):
fifteen where like every website would be have like a
screed about like the pitfalls of girl bossery. Yeah, but
it's like no one gives a shit anymore.

Speaker 4 (43:27):
No, I mean, it's just like but it's it's sort
of like also like we've seen this grift so many times.
Yeah too, It's like we've seen it with like a
deep water submarine. We've seen it.

Speaker 1 (43:36):
Like it's one kind of also ended in Amelia Press
with Yeah, that's true, I remember that.

Speaker 4 (43:42):
That's it. If it I guess if that if they
had fallen down a mountain and explodage, Yes, the space
hip full of Katy Perry and gay okay and stuff,
people would have talked about.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
Nory but that's what we need committed to sending a message.
They should have.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Committed to be creating a Melia pressed that would exploded.
But also it's almost like Ameili Prize is like the
transrepresentation version of women in Space for Girl Boss, where
it's like we've now gone through the conversation and not
just transrepresentation any kind of like representation politics. We've now
gone through the debate of like is it good is
a bad? Is it good as a bad? So many

(44:18):
times that something like a Melei Prize comes along and
I'm almost just like unable to even form an opinion
about it. Yeah, it's like remixing existing arguments that have
been had so many times.

Speaker 4 (44:28):
Yeah, including even like the trans backlash, right, Yeah, like
the imagined mob of like of like somehow trans people
who all have the same opinion. Yeah, it's like you
have to you have not met trans people if you
think there's a mob of them that are somehow in
lockstep or like can I even like not just be
like cats like batting at each other if you put

(44:48):
them together, you know, like that is you that's imagined.
It's totally imagined situation that they can chant the same
thing at the same.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Time honestly goes back to the lesbian own business that's
doomed to fail. It's like they're not agreeing in those meetings.

Speaker 1 (45:07):
I mean also in the Mask or the last story
of the book, it was that was very that where
it was like this is everyone's like, it's a meet up,
but everyone's on such a different page.

Speaker 4 (45:18):
Yeah, I mean sometimes it's like the when I talk
about that, it's like it's like we're all kind of
we're all kind of like standing in the same public square,
but like we we all came from like all four
cardinal directions, And if you'd be like, how do you
get here, it'd be like I came over that hill
and I saw a coward's like, I have no idea
what journey you took. I have no idea the landmarks

(45:39):
on your way. Like everything you're saying is alien and
strange to me. And the only thing that we have
is that we're kind of like standing in like like
a general vicinity. We're not on the same table. It's
like I see you, like, oh you had You're eating
ice cream and I'm having a coffee. You know.

Speaker 1 (45:55):
Yeah, it is interesting. I do feel like there's a
push to try to like make it seem like almost
like trans people are the like like gay guys, where
it's like the culture of gay guy is and it's
like it does it's not one to one.

Speaker 4 (46:10):
Yeah yeah, yeah, But but I also think that like
that ends up being like the useful thing is it,
Like let's let's let's pretend that all trans people like
are out here in a mob telling telling us what
we can or can't say, and it's like, yeah, thats
just it's.

Speaker 2 (46:24):
Not And they were all appointed by Biden.

Speaker 4 (46:26):
But yeah, exact.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
It was Biden appointed the trans mob.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
The head of which was the Suitcase Steeler my favorite.

Speaker 4 (46:35):
Oh yeah, yeah, that was a good Biden appointing.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
That was that was like Biden kind of ate with
that one.

Speaker 4 (46:42):
Yeah, that was that that. I was just laughing picturing
that person and picturing also like the protests like that
that the way that that person protested, like that I
did steal suitcase.

Speaker 1 (46:55):
But like wearing the outfits all over so genius. I Also,
now there's a thing I feel very conspiratorial around internet
backlash in general, because it feels like like websites are
basically like we need to find four tweets and then

(47:15):
we can say there's a backlash, and it's like it's
not about thought.

Speaker 2 (47:19):
Also, but also I have become so conspiratory. I mean
I've become so conspiratorial about literally everything being paid bots,
which is I remember in when people were like when
I'm whatever, like the kind of stereotypical center lib, you know,
fifty year old post Trump was like the Russians Russian bots,

(47:41):
like it's Cambergenolytica, and I was like, oh god, you
guys need to get it together. Now I have become that.
But for like a thread that's like, you know, Azelia
bakes his worst moment, I'm like someone paid for that.
I the Blake Lively, like the Blake Lively thing. The
only conclusion I drew from that is like, Okay, so
it's all fake. There's no one actually mad that Blake
Lively or or there's no one that actually in their

(48:03):
mind is like, wow, she actually was really rude to
that interviewer. It's literally just like someone behind the scenes
that bleep agency.

Speaker 4 (48:12):
But that is a very appealing worldview in Summay. That
actually makes you sound very chill like, even though it
makes you sound like you're like wearing. It's like also
like you're like the chilliest to netwhere you're like, it's
just it's just the bots to chill out. Everybody loves.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
It's actually, yeah, it's kind of beautiful. You're even like,
no one's mad.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
Yeah, but then I'm also like the most well, I'm like,
no one's mad. But then I'm also like we're living
in like the last of Us post apocalyptic world because
no one knows what's real or what's fake.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
Yeah, but soon it'll all be over.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
Oh that's true, kind of cheerful.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
Who cares? They love you based podcast. I find it
to be a really powerful mantra.

Speaker 4 (49:05):
You know.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
I find it there's a silliness to it. There's a
sort of detachment to it. Yeah, And I think both
of those are really important right now, Tori, I want.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
To give you a challenge, which is, you know, for
each of these stories, you experimented with a different genre.
I would love to see you experiment with the genre
of middle brow humor, essays of the type that you
find at airports. And I want you to write a
book that's called like, you know, someone's on my seat, not.

Speaker 3 (49:34):
Me, writing a book for you to read on the
airplane and other concerns.

Speaker 4 (49:39):
I would. I mean, I feel like that's actually like
the dream, yeah is it like you know, you get
like you get like a I feel like actually a
lot of like really great writers get to a point
in their life where they're like offered a cruise, you know,
and then cruises. Oh yeah, like the famous like David
Foster Wallace, like a supposedly fun that you've never yeah

(50:00):
where never done whatever it.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Is, I'll never do it again.

Speaker 4 (50:03):
I'll never do it again. Like it's like it was
like he basically just like I get to go on
like a carnival cruise or whatever, and I'll like try
and elevate it. And then he was like riffing on
like Frank Conroy going on a carnival crew on some
other cruise where you get any st just did it?
Ger Steiner? I mean Gary Steiner loves to go on
like a paid travel thing like.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
I know, but I'm also like I stand like.

Speaker 4 (50:25):
I know absolutely, like I would love to hear him
like in dubibing like I'm eating chicken hearts and like
whatever it is. It's like and you got paid ten
thousand dollars to do this and like you don't care,
like the way I mean, I love the way that
Gary Steiner doesn't care that it was like I just
wrote an entire novel about roll Axis. You know that's
like that's just I have a nice watch. I like

(50:47):
my watch, and now that's my novel. Like I kind
of appreciate his like his like just just what I've
gotten recently for free is the thing that interests me.
And I understand.

Speaker 3 (51:00):
You know when you said writers go on cruise, I
was thinking about like how comedians going.

Speaker 4 (51:04):
I was.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
Like, they're performing.

Speaker 4 (51:08):
I mean it's sort of similar though, like Lauren Oiler
went on the Goop.

Speaker 2 (51:12):
Cruise this podcast.

Speaker 4 (51:14):
Yeah, Lauren Oiler did it and did like and did
the same you know, very very funny, but did the
same thing. Where it's like, now that I'm on a
cruise as a writer, I'm going to reference every other
writer who is on a cruise as a sort of
like way of like this is a literary tradition and
also I got a free cruise, Like.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
I think it's great. I know that people do roll
their eyes at that genre, but I'm like it's fun
to it's fun for something to be like a thing
you revisit. I'm trying to think of like what an
equivalent thing is for It's like even honestly Chelsea Pretty
and her special when she's like every comedian, every male

(51:54):
comedian fucks the stool, like doesn't act where they fuck
the stool, and so Chelsea.

Speaker 4 (51:59):
How do you make it yours?

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Yeah, I mean yours? And so Chelsea's thing is like
I want to sort of riff on that by doing
For me, it's I'm passively taking it from the stool.
She's just like is like right by the stool, and
she's just like sitting there and then she's like and
then things got crazy and she turns around in her butt.
She's just sitting there. But it's like, yeah, that's actually

(52:21):
what culture is.

Speaker 1 (52:22):
No, it's it's how you interpret it and reference it. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:25):
I mean, if someone offered me a cruise at this point,
it's like got such a tradition that I wouldn't just
be like I would of course be like I'm a
little bit selling out and I'm taking the cruise, but
I would also be like like sort of like I'm
in that camp, like I'm more an oiler you engouraged. Yeah,
kir Stein guard camp like that's quite uh, I'm quite

(52:45):
honored to be to be offered the chance to sell
out for a cruise, and I mean I would Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:53):
No, you don't, well, cruise directors, Yeah, this is mags
mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (53:02):
Although you know, cruises are actually really scary because did
you read that New York mag piece about cruises about
the people that got left behind and then could not
make their way back. So there are these people on
a cruise and they like they were dropped off at
one of the stops and then we're like running to
get back on the cruisehip, but the cruise ship left

(53:23):
without them, and then it describes this they weren't Basically
cruise ships have no liability whatsoever, like no laws applied
to them. People like a shocking number of people die
on cruise every year and no one is held accountable.
These people were trying to get back on the cruise
and the cruise was just like we don't care, like
we're just gonna like do our thing. They had medical
issues that they didn't have their medicine for because the

(53:44):
medicine was still on the cruise. It's like this insane
thing that you're sort of like basically just putting your
life in their hand and the cruise ship company's hands.

Speaker 4 (53:54):
It's like the law of the sea applies, is like
maritime law.

Speaker 2 (53:57):
Yes, it's a combination of that and also some version
of basically cruise company lobbying such that they're very loosely regulated.

Speaker 4 (54:06):
And I guess I sort of hear about that this
sort of like weird ghost ships of like cruise cruise
ships for everybody has neuro virus at the same.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
Time, and like, and the most scary thing is that
cruise people like people that because the thing with cruise
people is that most people on a cruise our serial
cruise ship go right. It's like a cult. And so
when you raise these points to them, it's like you're
talking with scientologists. Like they don't accept, Like you'll be
like they're because the bridget read the writer who wrote

(54:34):
the story like interviewed a lot of cruise ship people,
and they like would not accept that cruise ship companies
make mistakes, like they were just and they would be
mad at the people who got left and they were like, well,
they told us, like you have to be back by
ten fifty five, even while someone's dying.

Speaker 4 (54:48):
That is very religious sort of.

Speaker 1 (54:50):
Yeah, well this is maybe a point to we need
to sort of lower the bar for the type of
like the writer that can go on a cruise ship.
You shouldn't. It shouldn't be like sort of you've made
a really successful career and now you get to do
cruise ship. They need to get beginning journalists out there.
It should be an unpaid on paid internership, because we
need more journalists on cruise ships to uncover what is

(55:12):
going on.

Speaker 2 (55:12):
Yeah, yeah, that's true enough sort of.

Speaker 1 (55:15):
Language about what it means to be on a cruise
and more about like the crimes that are being committed.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
Actually, I have a question for your toy. We were
talking about this at some point, what with the contemporary
version of specifically David Foster Wallis in that era going
on a cruise should be like, yes, the writer going
on a cruise is a tradition and everyone does it,
but at this point it's so referenced, it's so referencing
past cruise ships that it's barely about like it's not
really about like what it says about society that we

(55:43):
go on cruise ships. Like the contemporary thing would be
something like what is so like Lynchean and postmodern about
society that you that someone would comment on like is
it going to like an influencer conference, is it going
to like what is so depraved about our society that
now you would want like a high brow writer to
perform analysisan.

Speaker 4 (56:03):
Okay, well I have two thoughts on that.

Speaker 1 (56:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (56:05):
One is that I feel like this, like one of
the things that's happened is that this genre has been
like sort of exhausted, like we're going to find the
lynching thing so like even and it ends up becoming
like depraved in the practice of it. Yes, Like I
feel like the number of writers who are like I'm
going to like a right I'm going to go hang
out with like right wing influencers and try and like

(56:26):
make them interesting to us, Like I'm the it makes
me like sick.

Speaker 2 (56:31):
It's like a Morley bankrupt project.

Speaker 4 (56:32):
It's like this this this idea of like, oh, we're
just going to find out what the what the you know,
we're gonna find out what the fascist think, you know,
at their little and their little fashion like oh they
wear this hat or they wear this shoe. Ooh interesting.
It's like that's we're no longer like at the State
Fair with David Foster Wallis where like we're laundering something
when we do this. So I'm like, I'm kind of

(56:52):
like I'm kind of like in the typical magazine version
of this, I'm like this this thing is it doesn't
work anyway are now? And so like, because I too
am always like what what is a great magazine assignment
that I could like picture myself where I get to
go do something kind of enjoyable and eat nice food
and you know, I absolutely want that, you know, and

(57:13):
and that I but then I could also be saying
something while I'm doing it, and like most of the
things I could be saying are like kind of awful
at this point. But I will say that I think
that probably the frontiers on this are like I would
like to see a serious writer take on Discord Gooning.

Speaker 3 (57:33):
No, this is so good, Yeah, that would like I
feel like it's not not a thing in life, but
like that there's like whole like cultures that like I
need somebody that are like that are like not like, oh,
it's like a great place you go to, but like
the like I didn't know about Discord Gooning until like
last year, and then I was like fascinated with discord gooning, and.

Speaker 2 (57:58):
Can you actually explain what it is?

Speaker 4 (58:00):
So like you have like whatever your fetish is, right,
it's like there's discords, yeah, right where your thing is.
You sign under a discord and there's like there's like
thousands of other people on these discords and that like
then you like spend all day gooning, you know, like
but but like it's it's like so it's like it's

(58:23):
like I knew about this basic thing from like chat
when I was like okay, they're like, oh, like you
know asl like age sex, and then you're kind of
like I'm in it with you. I'm like doing a thing.
But it's like so overwhelmingly like like sensory attack now
where it's like you can be in voice channels, you
can be like you're gooning with other people in voice channels,

(58:44):
you're sending them every two seconds like some porn that's
like their triggers. Like you're like breaking each other's brains
in the discord goon you know, as you're just masturbating
for like you know, on adderall for hours and hours
and hours. So you have like like in marathon endurance
for it and like and then and to me, I'm

(59:05):
just like this explains so much, Like like I kind
of like when I see people, I'm like and I'm like,
why are they doing this thing? It's like, well, they're
probably coming off of like twenty two hours of gooning,
like I also would be making.

Speaker 1 (59:18):
I never know where you never know what people are
going through. I'm so glad you brought this up. I
learned about discord like jerk off groups recently, yeah, and
I have it. Luckily I'm technically untalented, so I haven't
found my way in. Yeah, but I was like, well,
I've got to check that out.

Speaker 4 (59:34):
There is a level of tech to do it that
is like that is like like I wanted to. I
wanted to see it, And I'm like, you have to
really be invested. But I feel like once you're invested,
like it seems that the payoffs are hot. It's like
it's like once you're in, you're like I'm set, Like
I don't need the real world anymore.

Speaker 1 (59:52):
It's great that people are getting weirder in a way
that I am finding myself curious about. Like I am
like I follow a guy on porn Twitter that like
like puts his full id up and it's just like
just to humiliate me. And I'm like wow, he puts
his phone over. He's like just text me and tell
me I'm pitiful, and I'm like this is weird.

Speaker 4 (01:00:14):
Yeah, And I just don't think that like real life
can can achieve that level of like like dopamine sensory humiliation.
Like if it's like I I was weird, you know,
like on the street and like some people are just
like and like you know, a few people snickered and
you're like I was mildly humiliated. But when you have

(01:00:35):
like twenty thousand people on the internet damn doing that,
it's like you're the sensory overload that is possible for
this kind of thing. Now is is so fascinating, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Well and then that needs me over like becomes the
point like I've seen so many things of like porn
is my life, Like I will, yeah, like quit your
family and watch porn and like it's like crazy where
it's like the like religion of porn becomes like the
new thing.

Speaker 4 (01:01:04):
And I need a respectable writer who's not part of
this to like get I want like Barbara King Solver
just like doing you know this is the culture of gooning.
I've uncovered it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:16):
That's so genius. You know, we started this horny and
we're ending in horn I really appreciate that.

Speaker 4 (01:01:24):
I want them to like uncover the big goon.

Speaker 1 (01:01:28):
Big the big goon has not been exposed.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
Yeah, And you know what's actually sick is like so
many people are hypocrites and are so sex positive in
their writing and then their adages and whatever, and they
would absolutely cower the night of the Big Goon. They
would not have the bravery to look at the.

Speaker 4 (01:01:47):
It's like strap on their pith.

Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
Damn.

Speaker 1 (01:01:52):
Barbara King Solver, if you're listening, this is yours.

Speaker 2 (01:01:54):
This is your moment.

Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
It's great that you got the pulitzer, but can you
can you face the big good? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:02:00):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (01:02:01):
Wow, Well that was amazing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
I think we should we do our final any final
thoughts on on prolonged divorce as a straight.

Speaker 4 (01:02:11):
No, I just just just rip the band off, like
I think. I'll just say, I think it should be
a four month process.

Speaker 2 (01:02:18):
Oh wow.

Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
I think if we're going to do an arbitrary thing,
I think from proposing your divorce to filing it, four
months is reasonable. That's real and you can still be
it's a gay marriage if you're if you've been doing
it in four months, anything after that, you're in a
straight marriage.

Speaker 2 (01:02:33):
Wow. Wow, yeah you heard of your greatest marriage, Brandelina. Yeah,
they're still going. Oh I think they're still divorcing. Am
I wrong?

Speaker 1 (01:02:41):
Yeah? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
Yeah, it's like it's been years. I had no idea,
and they are actually, if you think about it, sort
of the archetypal straight American couple. Yeah, of this generation.

Speaker 4 (01:02:51):
I think like you don't have to like have everything
settled after four months, Like if you're like them and
you own like a rose wine thing, it's.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Like who gets the rose?

Speaker 4 (01:03:00):
It's that is like that's difficult to me.

Speaker 1 (01:03:02):
That's different paperwork, and that's the lawyers.

Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
Yeah, but you know you have to like settle that
we are gonna split up the Rose ey yes, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:03:12):
They finalized December. We're getting word that they finalized December
twenty twenty four.

Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
We have once again spread misinformation and December twenty twenty four,
huh huh still pretty recent.

Speaker 2 (01:03:24):
You know, the rose is not bad. Oh I tried
it recently. Anyway, Let's do our final segment.

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
Okay, Tori. Our final segment is called shout outs. In
this segment, we pay homage to the grand straight tradition
of the radio shout out, shouting out to anything that
we are enjoying, people, places, things, ideas. Imagine it twousand
and one. You're at TRL shouting out to your squad
back home, and we have to think.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
We have to think about it on the spot, which
is why I have my thinking base.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
On here's okay, I have one, I have one?

Speaker 5 (01:03:54):
Okay, what's up freaks, loss and perverts around the globe.
I want to give a shout out to listening to
different music in different locations and having it hit different.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
I you know, this is sort of a basic concept,
but sometimes, you know, as I've been living in Los Angeles,
some music I'm like, seeing it makes sense more, and
some music I've been like, I know this is good,
and I know that I like this, but it's not
hitting as hard as I want. Today I was walking
through New York City and I was taking the subway,
and I said, it's time to put on Okay, Lou

(01:04:28):
and guess what. It was hitting harder than it's hit
ever before in my whole life. I already liked it,
but it's time I was like, damn the subways, like
I'm underwater, like I was in heaven. I felt cool.
I felt like, you know, this used to be my life,
and you know, I one day hope to be cool again.
But that is neither here nor there. But it is
on the subway listening to Okay Lou, New York City,

(01:04:49):
I Love you xoxo Sam whoo wait.

Speaker 2 (01:04:53):
My version of this so my dad's favorite musical artist
when I was growing up with Shade. Now, Shade famously
is like sexy music, and I think I will finally
be liberated when I can recontextualize Shade as something sexy
rather than something that reminds me of my father.

Speaker 1 (01:05:11):
Yeah, I mean, I find myself like and I can't
like I I it's you'll get there. Yeah, you just
need new context.

Speaker 2 (01:05:17):
I need, I need, I need smoking, I need, honestly discordgooning,
but for shaphones.

Speaker 1 (01:05:23):
Yeah, I've I'm finding myself listening to him constantly in
LA because I'm like, well this is makes sense, that.

Speaker 4 (01:05:30):
Does make sense and now that yeah, it's like st sunny.

Speaker 1 (01:05:33):
Yeah. And today I was like should I put on
a hem? And I was like, why not? It's cool?
It doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
Okay, what's up, fashionist does? I want to give a
shout out to the brand Marrow, the shoe brand Marrow.
It is so difficult right now to shop for shoes
because of the sort of constant TikTok semi ironic reappropriation
of every floating signifier that constantly exists. It is impossible
to know whether something you are wearing signifies that you

(01:06:01):
are basic, that you are young, that you are old,
that you're all trying to be young, that you are
trying to be hype beastie. And there is something about
Maryl brand shoes that almost transcends that. I think it
has been appropriated and reappropriated so many times that you
can they can basically be whatever you want them to be,
and you sort of can get away with wearing them
and they just like accommodate you the rest of your style.

(01:06:23):
And so I am this is the Meryl pledge. I
am buying a pair of Marraals in the next calendar month,
and that's gonna be my new look. It's gonna be
my Kamala blazer is I'm gonna wear Marrels and I
just want to think them for everything. They've contributed to
both straight, queer, gay all cultures because they have something
really wearing the Lilia was wearing them last night and

(01:06:43):
so shout out to Meryl. I don't know if they
are an ethical company, but I will do my research
after this. Yeah, that's my beautiful Tori. Whenever you're ready,
I want to shout out to.

Speaker 4 (01:07:01):
Nautical decorations. Yes, I was in a what I went
with a bunch of gay people to a restaurant that
was I was. I was staring at it the whole time,
was like, what is this restaurant? Why does it look
this way? Like I couldn't name it because I was
with gay people, so it didn't occur to me that

(01:07:22):
I could be in a nautical restaurant. Like they were
throwing off what the restaurant was. And then finally I
went to the to the bathroom by myself, and I
was in the bathroom and there was like rope trim
on like a like everything was navy blue and white,
you know, And I was like, oh, maybe's chic. I
don't know. And then and then I don't know, cheic

(01:07:44):
is oftentimes anyway, So I was like it was like,
because this maybe it's kind of frenchy, you know, like
somebody that could be so yeah, I was, but it
was in the bathroom and like it was like there's
rope trim picture of a sailboat, and all of a sudden,
I was like, I was like, probably in the basketball
I was like, it's a yacht club, you know, like alone.
But I was like I realized, like that's what this

(01:08:04):
theme was, and and and the whole lunch was just reaching.
It was changed. I was like this, this is the
feel of this lunch that I thought was like in
a in a like a cool New York restaurant. No,
I've just been dining at the yacht club and everything
was different. And it was because I became aware of

(01:08:26):
the nautical motif.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
Wow, that is so powerful.

Speaker 2 (01:08:30):
Do you think nautical?

Speaker 1 (01:08:31):
I love nauticle.

Speaker 2 (01:08:32):
Will come back, like yes, like in the way that
people fetishize cowboy work, where all that stuff like will
we get to a sailor moment?

Speaker 1 (01:08:42):
Nautical is incoming. I also think we all have this
thing where our parents' bathrooms had like a seashore theme
and it's like hack. But now we're like almost at
a place where we're like, well, I'm my parents' age,
like maybe I want to find my way into the sea.

Speaker 4 (01:08:57):
It was a time for some shells around the mirror.

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
Yeah, I think there's something where you're like, well, I'll
do it, but it'll be like a STEMI ironic and
I'll find a way to play with it.

Speaker 4 (01:09:06):
The thing is it immediately becomes like that, that just
becomes like you're a thing like I like in Florida.
When I'm in Florida, i am like excited to see
like manate seemed.

Speaker 2 (01:09:18):
Totally like not in a sort of alligator stuff.

Speaker 4 (01:09:23):
Yeah. Yeah, I'm in Maine.

Speaker 1 (01:09:24):
When I see those damn booies everywhere, I'm like perfect, You're.

Speaker 4 (01:09:27):
Like, yeah, I'm in Maine.

Speaker 3 (01:09:29):
I'm like, in fact, yeah, all I want is a
damn main bowie.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
Toy. This has been an absolute delight.

Speaker 4 (01:09:36):
It's been a pleasure for me so much for doing it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:39):
When for doing it, please purchase the book stag Dance
on Bookshop dot Organ not Amazon. That's right, I said it. Wow,
makes political statement. Making a political statement or Amazon, you
know or whatever. I have no moral backbook. And if
you're in the UK, you know, look look where you're

(01:10:02):
going to be.

Speaker 4 (01:10:02):
You're going to be it's gonna be like eight stops
in the UK and then including West Kirby. I don't
know that that is the probably the most obscure, but
apparently it's a nice place outside of Liverpool. Doing an
event in Brighton with Sean Fay who probably your listeners
know of Shaan Fay. And then I'm doing also Sydney

(01:10:25):
Literary Festival, Auckland Literary Festival and Melbourne let Literary Festival.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
So I'm doing We actually do have a lot of
Australian listeners, that's true. Australians love old Gate comedy.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:10:37):
Actually, well this is It's perfect that because I've been
sort of remiss and promoting those things.

Speaker 2 (01:10:43):
Yeah, you know, if you're an Australian listener, please please
look that up.

Speaker 4 (01:10:47):
I'll be there.

Speaker 2 (01:10:49):
Amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:10:49):
Wow. Well bye podcast and.

Speaker 2 (01:10:53):
Now want more? Subscribe to our Patreon for two extra
episodes a month, discord access and more by heading to
patreon dot com. Slash Stradio Lab.

Speaker 1 (01:11:03):
And for all our visual earners, free full length video
episodes are available on our.

Speaker 2 (01:11:07):
YouTube now get back to work.

Speaker 1 (01:11:09):
Stradia Lab is a production by Will Ferrell's Big Money
Players Network and iHeart Podcasts.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
Created and hosted by George Severs and Sam Taggart.

Speaker 1 (01:11:16):
Executive produced by Will Ferrell, Han Soni and Olivia Aguilar.
Co produced by Bei Wang, edited and engineered by Adam Avalos.

Speaker 2 (01:11:24):
Artwork by Michael Failes and Matt Grugg.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
Theme music by Ben Kling