July 9, 2025 • 41 mins
In 1969, a young Ted Kennedy drove his car off a bridge on Chappaquiddick Island in Massachusetts. He managed to get out of the car and survive, but the 28-year-old woman in the passenger seat did not. Kennedy fled the scene and didn’t report the incident until the following morning. As with all Kennedy scandals, conflicting reports of what exactly happened led to enduring conspiracy theories. We’re joined by Liz McNeil, editor-at-large at PEOPLE, author of JFK Jr.: An Intimate Oral Biography, and host of the Chappaquiddick podcast COVER-UP, to discuss what we know about that night — and what we don’t.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
What do you think of when I say chap Equittic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Well, I think of Ted Kennedy, and I think of
him getting himself into trouble with a young woman and
a bridge and some drinking and a lot of aps covering.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
That's my general memory.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I'm George Savers, I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United
States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with
the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect
of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about
chap Equittic.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yes, which immediately makes me think about the show's Succession.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Ok.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I was obsessed with Succession, the HBO show about an
unimaginably wealthy and powerful family, and the season one finale
involved Kendall, the eldest boy, getting into a car accident
or a passenger drowns, which is a very clear reference
to a tragic Kennedy event referred to now as simply
(01:22):
chap equittic.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
And the whole thing is a very big flashpoint in
the Kennedy chronology. So before we get into the details,
just to clear up a few things, chap Equittic is
a place. It is an island off the coast of Massachusetts,
but the shorthand chap Equittic nowadays references the event itself.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So when Succession fervor was at its height and it
was all anyone was talking about. I had so many
conversations with friends where I referenced chapp Equittic, and to
my surprise, most of them had no idea what I
was talking about, which is.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
So wild because it's a huge piece of the Kennedy
story and a very popular example of the Kennedy curse.
Also a proof of the power of the Kennedy machine,
because just like in Succession, the Kennedy's immediately ran a
cover up to protect the eldest boy, so Lyra, What
exactly happened that night in nineteen sixty nine, That's.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
The million dollar question. There are still so many mysteries
surrounding the actualities of that night, but here is what
we do know. On July eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine, a
group of Kennedy friends and political workers were having a
party in a small cottage on Chapiquitic Island in Massachusetts.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
There was a lot of drinking and it was kind
of a reunion for the women who worked on Bobby
Kennedy's presidential campaign, including Mary Joe Kopekni and Rosemary Keo,
who will come up again later.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Sometime around midnight, Ted Kennedy left the party, driving his
black Oldsmobile on the dirt road from the cottage with
Mary Joe in the car. Kennedy drives off a one
lane bridge into poach a pond, and then the details
get very messy. Ted says he tried repeatedly to rescue
(03:04):
Mary Joe but wasn't able to get her out of
the completely submerged car.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
What we do know is that he eventually returned to
the party and acted like nothing had happened.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, it's strange behavior, regardless of really any excuse he
comes up with. Instead of calling for help or alerting
anyone nearby, he goes to the party and tells his cousin,
Joseph Gargan and Paul Markham, a friend and lawyer. Then
they all returned to the pond and Joseph and Paul
(03:36):
try to reach Mary Joe, but they can't.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
And again they still have not alerted authorities or told
anyone else at this point, which is pretty brazen of them.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So Mary Joe's body is not found until the next
morning when fishermen spot the car. And there are so
many confusing and honestly ridiculous claims made by Ted to
explain it all. So today we have a special guest
on to help us unravel at all.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Liz McNeil is the editor at large at People Magazine
and the co author of the New York Times bestseller
JFK Junior and Intimate Oral Biography. She was also the
host of Cover Up, a podcast that looked into the
story of chap Equittic, and that's why we're talking to
her today. Liz, Welcome to the show. Thanks so great
to be here.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
So what brought Ted Kennedy and Mary Joe Kopecni to
chap Equittic.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
So way back then, they were in chap Equittic that
weekend because first there was a regatta, there was a
sailboat race that Ted Kennedy often participated in, and it
was that weekend, and it was also reunion for the
women several women who had worked for Bobby Kennedy in
his presidential run. They were called the boiler room girls
(04:49):
because they worked in a windowless office, but they were
part of the operation to help get write Bobby first
nominated and then elected president, and then there were a
several men that were also invited, a Senator Kennedy being one.
He was one of the hosts, and they had also
were in some ways affiliated with the Kennedy family with
the campaign, et cetera, et cetera. So there were these
(05:10):
two things and they come together for a barbecue and
a cookout on July eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
So we'll get into the details of everything that happened
in a second, but before we do, you know, after
chap Equittic ted, Kennedy's career was sort of defined by
this scandal in many ways. But we were curious what
did the public think of him before that? What was
his image in the public eye before chap Equittic.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
You know, it's a good question, and I'm old, but
I'm not that old, but I will say this. He yes,
he's considered the heir apparent, but I think there was
a sense that he's a young senator at this point
in Massachusetts. But you know, there's President Kennedy JFK. There's
Bobby who really becomes this you know, incredible figure over
(06:02):
this short course of running for president of sort of
inspiration becomes sort of much deeper spiritually. He's really connecting
to people, reaching out, whether to farm workers or you know,
getting more involved in racial issues. He definitely sort of
takes on a new deeper persona. Right after the death
(06:25):
of the assassination of his brother, I think there was
probably a sense that maybe Teddy wasn't up to the task,
not that that had been proven. He was a young
senator at the time, but I think wasn't maybe considered
in the same way. I think his long career in
the Senate probably disproves that. But at this point, right
at this juncture in nineteen sixty nine, perhaps he's not
(06:46):
seen as the serious one because.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
He was really young too. He was as young as
he could possibly be as a senator. Yes, Also, I
want to explain the boiler room girls.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Yes, absolutely, and of course, and there's many things in
the story. Know when you reported that are of course
you know you wouldn't refer to somebody today as a
boiler room girl. But yes, it was. They were very,
very involved, uh in the UH in the campaign. I
think each of the women were assigned states. I know
Mary Joe Capecne was assigned certain States and was very
involved in you know, voter registration, getting people out to vote,
(07:21):
rallying the vote. So these were serious young women, very
inspired by Bobby. They were very connected to Bobby. And
what's so interesting is that, you know, because of what
happens at chap Equittic, they become very connected to Senator
Ted Kennedy. But they're really you know, believers, right, I
think they call them true believers in Bobby and uh
(07:42):
and and what he and his campaign were all about.
So yeah, they were very serious young women who really believed,
I think, in Bobby's mission.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
All right. So so now that we've set the scene,
I guess before we go into the details, you know,
in your own words, what did happen at Trapiquittic.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There's
the official record which people know, and basically, right, there's
this gathering of six women and I think it's six
men on that night, and it's really a reunion of
sorts for people who worked on the campaign. And I
think it's a sad one because you know, it was
(08:19):
incredible loss with the assassination of Bobby Kennedy. But what
happens that night is a woman drowns, Mary Joe Kopecne,
and there is a very long delay. Ted is driving
the car and there's a very long delay nine to
ten hours before that is reported to the authorities. So right,
that's not reported until the next morning, July nineteenth. So
(08:40):
that story of exactly what happened. There's the official account
of what Senator Kennedy put forth that's well documented, and
then there's a lot of other theories about what happened
that night. And I have my own just based on
the investigation that I did and the people that I
talked to, and it really became a story about memory
and also about privilege.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
You know.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
I just I'm going to tell you about this book.
This is this was my bible. This book is called
Senatorial Privilege by Leo de Moore, and Leo Demore is
a local reporter who digs into the case several years
after the fact and probably interviews over two hundred people.
So this book is the bible sort of for reporters
(09:19):
for finding out what happened. And I think what he
would say, and probably what I would say, is it
didn't go down the way that Senator Kennedy and others
said that it went down, Right, There's there's a lot
of strange things happened that night, happened in the aftermath,
happened because of the Kennedy's political power, you know, certain
(09:39):
things happened. I think, as somebody said, right, it was
as if there was one set of rules for the
Kennedys and one set of rules for everyone else. So
it's about the death of this young woman, Mary Joe Kopecne,
and her story gets completely eclipsed right by Senator Kennedy,
and it's really becomes a story about his political future,
and it really doesn't become a story is story about
(10:00):
the loss of this young woman.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
And how was the case at that time covered in
the media. Would you say that people were sort of
and obviously on Ted Kennedy's side. That sounds ridiculous, But
were people feeling suspicious of the entire thing was it?
Did people see it sort of as a tragedy that
was no one's fault?
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Interesting? You know, there's a famous headline. I think it's
in the New York Daily News, and I think it's
Teddy escapes, Blonde rowns and in a strange way, right,
that sort of tells you, right, the story really became
about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes, how this is
going to affect right Ted's Will Ted become president, Will
(10:45):
Ted be able to you know, take the mantle from
you know, sort of this thing that's been handed to him,
all this expectation. But it was never about Mary Jo Kopecney.
There was so little known about her. I when I
started the investigation, I knew nothing about her. I didn't
even if anybody was alive who her. And then I became,
you know, close to her cousin, who was a very
(11:07):
important part of the story. But so in terms of
you know, I think, you know, there were certainly investigations
done about what was happening, but at the tenor of
the times is so different. You know, this is really
within six years of you know, incredible losses that the
(11:28):
Kennedy family suffers, which you know, yes, on one hand,
it has nothing to do with it, but perhaps it
also has a lot to do with, you know, how
the story unfolded. But yes, definitely there was criticism and
investigative reporters on the scene and sort of trying to
find out what really happened. But I would say the
story was really always about Ted Kennedy. That's how it
(11:48):
was covered.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
At the time.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
M hm.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And so one of the things that we find truly
interesting about his response or his public speaking after the fact,
is that he uses the word. He says that, you know,
I don't know, maybe there is some curse.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
And it was the first time that Kennedy ever referred
to any kind of Kennedy curse. And I think it
was the first time it was like mentioned on the
public record at all, Like the first time it was
sort of popularized as an idea, surprisingly was from m Kennedy,
even though then so many members of the Kennedy family
spent so much time trying to deny that there was
something like a curse. And so it's interesting that the
(12:24):
first time it was mentioned, it wasn't because of something
that quote unquote happened to them. It was about something that,
in fact, you know, was a direct result from an
action committed by a Kennedy.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
Right, this is the first time that any Kennedy has
used the term a Kennedy curse. Now, don't forget, not
only is there the loss, the incredible violence of the
loss of President Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy, but There's also
the loss of the older brother, Joe, who died in
a bombing miss mission. At the end of World War Two.
There's a loss of Kathleen Kennedy in a horrible plane accident,
(13:01):
and you know, many things will follow after that. But
I think what's so interesting about the term of a
Kennedy curse is that it's sort of one could say
that it absolves responsibility, right, because what is a curse.
Curse is something that we're not we don't control. It's
something that comes inexplicable, that comes from, you know, forces
(13:21):
greater than ourselves. When when you look at chap equitic
or when you examine chap Equittic, right, it really was
the actions of you know, somebody who was most definitely
on the planet. So it's an interesting idea. You know,
that idea followed the Kennedys, and maybe it still does
to this day. But it was something that you know,
(13:41):
it's a very it's very evocative, right, and it definitely
makes you think, oh, how could one family withstand so
much tragedy, you know, and as such incredible loss. That
is all true, however, right, it also absolves one of
some responsibility in.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Terms of the sort of speci I want to get
into the nitty gritty of some of the biggest like
unsolved mystery. Is one thing that seems kind of shocking
in retrospect is that an autopsy was never performed. What
was the series of events that led to that?
Speaker 4 (14:15):
So do the best of my recollection. The next morning,
the medical examiner is on vacation, so his number two
arrives on the scene and I think doesn't examine. That
lasts about fifteen minutes. She's fully clothed, meaning that's when
she's taken out of the car, and he basically determines
that she has died by drowning. So because of that, right,
(14:39):
because the medical examiner determined that she had died by drowning,
they did not ask for an autopsy. So things get
more complicated from there. So then the body's flown off
the island. The next day, two become embalmed, she's buried.
The Pecknees are a very Catholic family, so several months later,
(14:59):
the DA files something for the body to be exhumed,
right so that there can be an autopsy. But there's
an exhumation hearing, So at this time there's different schools
of thought right about should the body be exzoomed, should
it not be exhumed. I spoke to the two medical
examiners who were still alive. One of them is still alive,
(15:21):
I think one of them has since passed away. Cyril
Weckt and Werner's Spitz, two of the most famous medical
examiners probably in American history, and they were each of
them was involved arguing either for or against should the
body be exumed. So one thing that's interesting is that
because the Capeknies were very Catholic, they were worried about
(15:42):
what an exhumation would entail. And they were under the
impression that the body was going to be examined to
find out if Mary Joe was a virgin or not.
So don't forget this is you know, many many over
fifty years ago. So there concerned about this, and I
(16:02):
would say, and so they actually argue asked for the
body not to be exhumed, for there not to be
an autopsy. So right fast forward, when I interviewed Georgetta Potowski,
she's Mary Joe's closest living relative. I'm just gonna I
printed it out so I could read it for you.
So this is what Georgetta was saying about Gwen. Gwen
(16:23):
is Mary Joe Kopekni's mother, Gwen Copecny. So Gwen Copecny
and Mary Joe's mother always regretted that she had opposed
an autopsy for her daughter. Years later, Gwen said it
was the biggest mistake she ever made, said Georgetta. There
should have been an autopsy. She knew it would have
cleared up a lot of things end quote. But at
the time, Mary Joe's parents were afraid the autopsy was
(16:44):
solely to determine if their daughter was pregnant, and they
did not understand its importance. Although it was ruled that
Mary Joe had died by drowning, there were always lingering
questions about exactly how long she had survived in the
car and whether she had suffocated or drowned. An autopsy
he would have likely answered those questions.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, because I was I had always heard that her
body was in a position that meant that there was
an air pocket.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
Yeah, that's what John Ferrars says. So you know, John
ferrar is the diver, and I interviewed him. He's a
fascinating guy. So he's the man who goes in the
next morning, as soon as they find realize that there's
a car underwater. He goes in and he locates Mary Joe,
locates the car and carries her out. It's very dramatic,
very sort of tragic, you know, story. And he believes
(17:35):
that the way Mary Joe's hands or position face body
that yes, she was gasping for air and that she
had found an air pocket.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
That's what he believed, which would have meant that she
was alive for a time, possibly enough time, right, And.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
We don't know how long she was alive. You know,
the autopsy perhaps would have, you know, been able to
have narrowed that down, but we don't know could have,
and you know, we just don't know. And it's formal
to even imagine, right, that's like, yeah, it's even hard
to It was hard for me to, you know, I
had to do it because you have to understand how
Mary Joe died in order to understand the story. But yes,
it is not clear how long she was alive in
(18:14):
the car.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
So we have a mystery surrounding how exactly she died.
There is a mystery surrounding why she was in the car,
whether or not she was asleep as you say, why
another woman's purse was in the car? What are some
of the other kind of unsolved mysteries that we still
you know, people are still looking for answers too, because
this is one of those kind of cases that, you know,
(18:56):
for lack of a better term, true crime buffs really
enjoy because there are so many open questions. So what
are the other things that people sort of obsess over?
Speaker 4 (19:05):
I think for me, I was interested why the boiler
room girls never have never spoken. They're all alive, They're
all very accomplished women. I talk about them in the
last episode of the podcast. Most of them became lawyers,
had very interesting careers. One of them became an agent
at ICM, and so that they are interesting in and
(19:29):
of themselves, Right, why have they never spoken what it
was like to be you know, they're all their very
young twenties, I think at the time that night, so
there's that. I think for Mary Joe's family, it's still
not exactly clear what happened, Right, Georgetta would always say
to me, they just wanted to know what the last
(19:50):
hours were like, was she happy at the party? What
was their mood? What did they talk about? You know,
why did she get in the car? The other question?
So the other question is why, So if you know
the geography of what happens, Right, there's a tea in
the road, so there's the road that the house is on.
That the house where the party is and to my
(20:11):
best of my recollection, to the right is the Dyke Bridge, right,
the way the car crashes. To the left is the
road to the ferry. So it's almost a t right.
So why is the car that's supposed to be going
to the ferry right to get home? Why does it
go in the opposite direction?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
And we never found out whether or not Ted was intoxicated, correct,
because there was no I remember reading like someone accused
someone involved in the case, you know, why did you
why didn't you give him a breathalyzer? And the person said, well,
it was the morning after that I spoke to him.
Even if I did give him a breathalyzer, it would
not say anything useful about what happened to eight hours ago.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Ted never takes a never takes any kind of alcohol tests,
so that's really undetermined. Another question is it's something you do. Oh,
so there's do you know the story of Huck look right?
So Huck, look is the man. I pretty sure he's
the sheriff who says who he's dead? Now? Are said
that he saw the car more or less ninety minutes
(21:15):
after Ted said he left, so I'd have to refresh
my memory. But I think Ted says he says he
leaves around eleven eleven thirty, and I think Huck sees
the car ninety minutes later, or he sees a car
that looks exactly like that. Now, don't forget he doesn't
actually see he sees I think three remembers three letters
(21:36):
or numbers from the car plate when he sees the car.
The next morning, when he goes out to the Dyke Bridge,
he says, that's the car I saw last night. He
sees the car and sort of begins to approach it.
I think he might think that they're lost or something,
because the car is close to the tee right whether
you make a left or right, and begins to approach it,
and then the car sort of revs up and speeds off,
(21:57):
so he never gets to see who's exactly in the car.
Was that timeline about right? So if it was ninety
minutes later, the ferry stopped operating at midnight, So if
the car is there ninety minutes later, that meant that
when they.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Left, they probably weren't going to the ferry.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
I mean right, because now even though the ferry operator
who was still alive, Jerry Grant, who I did interview,
he was still there till about two am. I think
he just.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, I had read something that so that you could
still call it.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
So the timeframe is is really interesting, right, And then
I mean, there's so many interests. Why did Ted swim across?
He says, he swam across. You know, the main question
is why did it take ten hours to report what
had happened. There's interesting records of phone calls that were
made from payphones in the middle of the night.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
So Liz, then what do you think really happened?
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Then, well, you have to listen to the podcast. So
it's such a complicated story, Okay, I'll just start off
with that. I probably talked about seventy people, seventy five
people maybe more or in the course of my investigation.
And there were two there were many things that stuck out.
Two things happened at the end that were really interesting.
One was a friend of Ted's who did not allow
(23:10):
me to name him and would not you know, allow
me to you know, identify him in any way. But
he said years later that Ted had told him that
Mary Joe Kapectney was asleep in the back of the
car and that he didn't know she was there. So
the next morning the car isn't discovered until the next morning.
It's overturned in a pond they called it a pond
(23:33):
beneath the chap Equittic Bridge, the Dyke Bridge, and the
car's overturned, and when the car's fished out of the water,
there's another woman's purse in the car, not Mary Joe
Capecne's car. The purse belongs to a woman named Rosemary Keo.
Rosemary Keo is one of the Boiler One girls. She's
still alive, and it's her purse in the car, not
(23:54):
Mary Joe Capekney's purse. Now, at the time of the investigation,
the best of my recollection, what she says, or others say,
is that she had gone out earlier that night with
one of the other men who were at the party
to I think it was to get a tape recorder
or cassette player or something to play music at the party,
(24:17):
and that she had left her purse there, so it
just remains a question why was another woman's purse in
the car? Perhaps, you know, it was because of that,
you know, there's other theories there. So her purse was
still at the rental house that they were all having
the party that night. So the retrieval of the purse,
(24:37):
all the strange things that happened that night and the
next morning, this all becomes sort of part of the
chap Equittic story, right. So there's the Mary Joe's death,
there's what happens to Ted's political future. But there's a
lot of layers. I really feel like it was sort
of like an onion, you know, depending on who you
spoke to. So there's red herring. Sometimes it was easy
to get lost, you know, in a tract of you know,
(24:58):
at one point, I was dealing with the bagmen of Watergate,
because one of them is sent up at the behest
of Richard Nixon the next morning to investigate what happened.
Because don't forget, President Nixon is worried about Ted Kennedy,
you know, as a possible presidential contender. So Nixon is
also very involved. So there's a lot of layers to
(25:20):
the case, there's a lot of theories about what happened,
and then there's a lot of strange things that happened.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
I guess I even am confused as to if she
was sleeping in the back seat, why is she sleeping
in the back seat of that car when they're in
a house that has bedrooms.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Like that even is very strange. The family received a letter.
This was right around the time I was doing the podcast.
I'm not allowed to say too much about the letter,
but I know who wrote the letter, and I refer
to that person as the letter writer, and the letter
writer get together with somebody who was at the party
years later, and that person a letter writer called that
(26:00):
person Betty. I think it was a pseudonym, and the
letter writer said that Betty had said that there was
no There was a very small cottage to my recollection,
I think it was two bedrooms, and that there was
no room for her and no forget they're having a
party and it's a raucous party and there's drinking and
there's music, and you know, they're carousing, and there was
(26:21):
no quiet place for somebody to sleep. And I think
they said Mary Joe had a little too much to
drink so that she went into the backseat of Ted's oldsmobile.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
And so after all of this, Ted is only charged
with leaving the scene of an accident after causing personal injury.
And so, I know, you know, there's been talk of
the fact that there are different rules for Kennedy's than
for everyone else. What is your take on the process
of criminal justice after what happened? I mean, how did
(26:53):
we get from such a kind of messy night with
so many open questions to sort of a slap on
the rest.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Right, he's charged with leaving the scene of an accident.
You know, I'm going to quote from this book, if
that's okay with you, because the More just did such
an exhaustive, you know, multi year investigation. So he at
the end of his book he cites an investigation that
the Boston Globe did in nineteen seventy four. Right, this
is just a head of nineteen seventy six, when it's
(27:22):
believed that Ted may you know, run for president. So
I'm just going to read this is from page four twelve.
Senator Kennedy granted a two hour interview to a team
of investigative reporters. Use it from the Globe to discuss
the accident for the first time since the inquest. He
continued to insist his version of the accident was accurate.
(27:44):
The widespread skepticism about his inquest testimony was quote unwarranted
and unjustified, he said, quote I attempted during the course
of the inquest to respond to these questions completely, candidly, honestly,
in to the best of my ability end quote. His
conduct had been quote irrational and indefensible, and inexcusable and inexplicable.
(28:04):
He said, I was at that time obsessed by grief
at the loss of a life. It was strictly a
state of mind. Okay, Now, Leo Gozanda right. But Kennedy
cleared up none of the contradictions involved in the accident
or quote. The nearly one hundred discrepancies in the testimony
and statements by key inquest witnesses, preferential treatment by law
enforcement and judicial officials had saved Kennedy from being charged
(28:28):
with serious crimes, including manslaughter. The Globe concluded in its
four part series routine investigative and judicial procedures had been
either altered or botched numerous times by apprehensive officials and
overwhelming deference to Kennedy's power and prestige. End quote. Justice
was not served, hard questions were not asked of witnesses,
(28:49):
and complaints and indictments not pursued. End quote. So de
More is quoting the Boston Globe that did the investigation
into the piece. I know that's long, but I can't
say it better than that.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
No, that's great. I like the apprehensive officials is kind
of the key there. I feel like in a lot
of pieces here.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
I'm sort of interested in, Like, I guess what I'm
interested I think what we're interested in is. You know,
you've spoken to Mary Joekapekney's surviving family, and on the
one hand, at the time it seemed like they also
you know, they also did not call for an autopsy.
There was not, from what I understand, a giant amount
of disagreement between the Kennedy camp and their camp about
(29:30):
how to handle the case. But of course now there
is still a kind of a movement to seek justice,
whatever that may mean for them. So could you talk
a little bit about how her surviving relatives have expressed
themselves to the public and how their image of the
night has changed over time.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
I would say the Kopeknes were not you know, there's
a political machine right that they're dealing with. At the time,
they were modest people. Mary Joe was their only daughter.
They were completely grief stricken. I think what Georgetta explained
to me was they definitely believed they were going to
(30:12):
get some answers, right from Senator Kennedy or other people
at the party about what really happened, and they're completely
grief stricken. I think at the funeral, I think there's
photos of mister Capecnie holding up Gwen like. It's photos
that are, you know, very difficult, hard to look at,
and so they're completely you know, bref at this time.
(30:32):
So I think there was a sense that they were
going to get answers from their part. This is according
to Georgetta, the cousin, So just to clear that up.
I think they thought they were going to get some answers,
some explanation. Now you know, they're they're pretty private. They
wrote a small self published book they called it Our
Mary Joe, so they have a scholarship in her name.
(30:54):
You know, what Georgetta would said to me a lot
is that they just wanted answers, mostly about what happened,
and mostly about you know, that night, what her mood was.
Why was there so much secrecy surrounding things at the end,
Why the ten hour delay? So I think they mostly
just wanted answers and clarity about what happened, because like
even they couldn't get answers right. And it's was their
(31:17):
you know, their family member. Why is it still shrouded
in so much mystery?
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Do they, for lack of a better word, blame the
Kennedy machine for this or do they see it as
a larger question that is, you know, unfortunately a tragedy
that they will never fully comprehend. What is their relationship
to the Kennedys.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
They mostly just wanted answers. I think they feel like
they had been misled a little bit, you know, And
I think they wanted Mary Joe to be considered as
a person, as a human being, as a young woman,
not you know, blonde drowns. She was a really really
interesting woman. You know, she wanted to go into politics.
(31:58):
She had taught for a year, I think in Alabama.
You know, there was so much idealism in that time,
you know, working for Bobby. I can't remember that was
that must have been before, but she was a really
interesting woman, and I think they wanted, you know, of
course just her to be recognized for who she was,
but also they wanted, you know, they want the truth.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
So it's sort of a twofold idea of justice. They
want the truth about what happened, but they also in
the media narrative, want her to be more central to
the story, considering that was the great loss not Ted
Kennedy's political career.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
I don't want to speak for them, but yes, I
think that those two things are given.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
I think that's very relatable understandable that when there is
a tragedy like this that really the most that you
can have is clarity. That's kind of the best that
you can hope for, is just to have some clarity
on what happened when on succession. They made this rather
(33:11):
clear reference to chap equitic. To me, this is one
of the first things you think of when you think
about the Kennedys, but for some people it is not
at the forefront. And I think that that is interesting.
But I was wondering, like, if you had any thoughts
about that when that happened on succession or that just
being you know, sixty years later, back in like the
(33:32):
pop culture conversation.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
You know, I didn't watch Succession. I know it's considered
like incredible and I probably should, but I think it's
incredibly interesting, of course, and it's interesting that the mystery
lives on all these years later. You know, when I
started looking into it, I think I knew three lines
about that story, right, Something strange happened, A young woman died.
There had been a delay. That's really all I knew then.
(33:55):
And I ended up doing a podcast, and I remember thinking, like, oh, oh, oh,
my god, I have to do a podcast, and I
really don't know anything about it, and why was that? Like,
I mean, I knew other things. I did report a
lot on the Kennedy's for People magazine. I report on
a lot of other things too, but I didn't know.
I did not know that story, right, other than just
sort of that brief right brushstrokes. But then once you
(34:18):
look into it, it's right, everything's converging in that story, right,
political power, privilege, you know, the tenor of the times politics,
so it's you know, it really was one of the
most is one of the most fascinating stories I've ever
looked into. One thing that's so interesting is there are
(34:39):
a lot of people still alive. Now, a lot of
people are gone, but a lot of people are still
alive who lived through it, who played a part, you know,
people in law enforcement. And yet even during the course
of that investigation, people several very key important people died.
Joe Gargan died, Paul Markham died, and that was I
think even in the course of right around the time
(34:59):
I was doing it. But there are a lot of
people still alive and the like, there's a haunting quality
to that story, to this story, right, like what happened,
you know, just going back to what you said before,
it was really about the truth, right, But the Capetnis
wanted was the truth what happened. And the fact that
we're still talking about it all these years later, right,
why is it? I thinks still not one hundred percent clear.
(35:23):
So you know, there's a Yes, it's a very haunting story.
I was haunted by it.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
What was the response after the podcast was released? Did
you hear after the fact, after the final episode was released,
did you hear from anyone if you feel comfortable saying,
did you hear from anyone saying you know, either you
got it right, or how dare you?
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
You know, I had a there's a Facebook page that
probably hasn't been too active in a long time, but
I had the cover up has a Facebook page, and
I got some interesting responses that people would send, you know,
notes to us. There was me, several other producers, and
(36:06):
one person said, maybe more than one person said that's
the story. That's what I was told. These people were
connected in various ways. But you know, I think at
the last episode of the podcast, I called the story
like a rashamn story, right, because you'll find this in
the course of your own podcast, right, that there was
(36:26):
different versions about what happened that night. But yes, I
was led to believe that, and I do believe it.
And I did get some responses that said that that
was correct. But you know, these are not people that
go on the record or that I can interview or
that I can even name, And of course, you know,
I have to be open to the idea that something
else might have happened, you know. And I was thinking
(36:48):
about it today because I knew I was gonna, you know,
do the interview with you, and I thought, wow, what if,
you know, maybe something completely different happened that this book.
I cannot recommend it enough. If you're on the beach
some light summer reading, it's said, it's a tour de
force of reporting of and and if you even want
to go deeper. His papers are at Kent State University.
(37:11):
And if there's all, I did a whole episode about
the episode six of the podcast about so Leo Demore
is probably a subject for podcast in and of himself.
And his papers are at Kent State and there's probably
thirteen or fourteen boxes. I had two days to go
through them, and I like, I like, I like, I
never moved because it's fast. There's a lot of stuff
(37:32):
that don't even make it into that book. And he
interviews almost anybody, So yes, there's a lot of there's
a lot more to the story. How's that?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
And that book again is senatorial privilege for anyone listening. Yeah,
And it has a really great, sort of fabulous eighties
cover right now.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
It got reissued, got reissued at the time of the documentary.
It's the same book, but it has a different title.
I forgot what they called it. But it's it's an
amazing and his story is interesting and how and how
well he gets people to talk and he got Joe
Gargin right. So Joe Gargan is Ted's cousin, He's one
of the men at the party, and he interviews Joe
(38:07):
Gargin maybe been the only one that really ever interviewed him.
So yes, if you want to keep going on the
chap Equittic story, I highly recommend it.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
I think part of what is interesting to us and
why we want to do this podcast is to explore specifically,
like the cultural fascination with the Kennedys. It just is
this enduring American mythology that people keep going back to.
And I think with people like RFK Junior and with
people like Jack Schlossberg, we're kind of in a new
even Patrick Schwarzenegger, who people have, We're kind of in
(38:37):
a new or very kind of slightly weird or different
era of Kennedy worship and Kennedy fascination. So I think
maybe we can end on this like, what do you
think keeps people coming back to the Kennedy is What
do you think like attracts Americans so much to the
Kennedy story.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
Well, first of all, there's not one person to write about, right,
It's not like I'm just your there's how many members
of the Kennedy family are there now, I don't know.
So there's a lot of people to write about. Right,
there's the Shrivers, there's you know, and all the good
works that they've done. There's Rosemary Kennedy. Have you done
a podcast as far that was probably we will, but
(39:20):
if I was going to say the most interesting story,
and there's an incredible book that was written about her
by a woman named Kate Larson and did a cover
story on that. So there's her story. Then there's the
right Then there's the children and the children of and
then there were what generation are we on that, right?
The fourth generation, you know, and then Carrie Kennedy marries
Andrew Cuomo and there's you know, there's her daughters and
(39:41):
all the different you know, some are more public, some
are more private. So you know, the ancestors, I guess
you would say the first generation. Right, that's all pre
the pre social media and even up until John right,
John is pre social media, pre iPhone, So there was
a lot that people didn't know. So there's just I
don't know there, you know, they there's also this real
(40:03):
idealism I think attached to the family, like when you
listen to a speech, well, even when I listened to
a snippet of a speech by Bobby or JFK, how
could you not be inspired. I'm inspired. People don't. Politicians
don't talk like that anymore, right, sort of lofty and
but idealistic and yet easily understandable, right, very connected to
working people. So they're sort of, you know, very interesting
(40:27):
idealism there that they sort of connected you to something
maybe better than yourselves, deeper than yourselves. And then there's
of course all the tragedies and the scandals and all
the things that you know, surround them. So I don't know,
there's sort of nobody like them. There's so vast and uh,
there's so much good right, and there's so much you know, uh,
(40:49):
dark stuff also connected to them that I would just say,
you know, endlessly, endlessly fascinating.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Thank you so much. This is really great to talk
to you than much.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
You're taking the time. This was really great.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
Okay, bye everybody.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Liz McNeil is the editor at large at People. She
is also the author of the new book, which comes
out in paperback this fall, JFK. Junior, an intimate oral biography. Liz,
Thanks so much so that's it for this week's episode.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Next week, we're talking about Carolyn Bessett Kennedy and her
truly immeasurable impact on fashion and her life on the
tabloid spotlight.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all
things Kennedy every week.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
Thanks for listening.
What do you think of when I say chap Equittic.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Well, I think of Ted Kennedy, and I think of
him getting himself into trouble with a young woman and
a bridge and some drinking and a lot of aps covering.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
That's my general memory.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
I'm George Savers, I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United
States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with
the Kennedy Dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect
of the Kennedy story, and today we are talking about
chap Equittic.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
Yes, which immediately makes me think about the show's Succession.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Ok.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I was obsessed with Succession, the HBO show about an
unimaginably wealthy and powerful family, and the season one finale
involved Kendall, the eldest boy, getting into a car accident
or a passenger drowns, which is a very clear reference
to a tragic Kennedy event referred to now as simply
(01:22):
chap equittic.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
And the whole thing is a very big flashpoint in
the Kennedy chronology. So before we get into the details,
just to clear up a few things, chap Equittic is
a place. It is an island off the coast of Massachusetts,
but the shorthand chap Equittic nowadays references the event itself.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So when Succession fervor was at its height and it
was all anyone was talking about. I had so many
conversations with friends where I referenced chapp Equittic, and to
my surprise, most of them had no idea what I
was talking about, which is.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
So wild because it's a huge piece of the Kennedy
story and a very popular example of the Kennedy curse.
Also a proof of the power of the Kennedy machine,
because just like in Succession, the Kennedy's immediately ran a
cover up to protect the eldest boy, so Lyra, What
exactly happened that night in nineteen sixty nine, That's.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
The million dollar question. There are still so many mysteries
surrounding the actualities of that night, but here is what
we do know. On July eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine, a
group of Kennedy friends and political workers were having a
party in a small cottage on Chapiquitic Island in Massachusetts.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
There was a lot of drinking and it was kind
of a reunion for the women who worked on Bobby
Kennedy's presidential campaign, including Mary Joe Kopekni and Rosemary Keo,
who will come up again later.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Sometime around midnight, Ted Kennedy left the party, driving his
black Oldsmobile on the dirt road from the cottage with
Mary Joe in the car. Kennedy drives off a one
lane bridge into poach a pond, and then the details
get very messy. Ted says he tried repeatedly to rescue
(03:04):
Mary Joe but wasn't able to get her out of
the completely submerged car.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
What we do know is that he eventually returned to
the party and acted like nothing had happened.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Yeah, it's strange behavior, regardless of really any excuse he
comes up with. Instead of calling for help or alerting
anyone nearby, he goes to the party and tells his cousin,
Joseph Gargan and Paul Markham, a friend and lawyer. Then
they all returned to the pond and Joseph and Paul
(03:36):
try to reach Mary Joe, but they can't.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
And again they still have not alerted authorities or told
anyone else at this point, which is pretty brazen of them.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So Mary Joe's body is not found until the next
morning when fishermen spot the car. And there are so
many confusing and honestly ridiculous claims made by Ted to
explain it all. So today we have a special guest
on to help us unravel at all.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Liz McNeil is the editor at large at People Magazine
and the co author of the New York Times bestseller
JFK Junior and Intimate Oral Biography. She was also the
host of Cover Up, a podcast that looked into the
story of chap Equittic, and that's why we're talking to
her today. Liz, Welcome to the show. Thanks so great
to be here.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
So what brought Ted Kennedy and Mary Joe Kopecni to
chap Equittic.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
So way back then, they were in chap Equittic that
weekend because first there was a regatta, there was a
sailboat race that Ted Kennedy often participated in, and it
was that weekend, and it was also reunion for the
women several women who had worked for Bobby Kennedy in
his presidential run. They were called the boiler room girls
(04:49):
because they worked in a windowless office, but they were
part of the operation to help get write Bobby first
nominated and then elected president, and then there were a
several men that were also invited, a Senator Kennedy being one.
He was one of the hosts, and they had also
were in some ways affiliated with the Kennedy family with
the campaign, et cetera, et cetera. So there were these
(05:10):
two things and they come together for a barbecue and
a cookout on July eighteenth, nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
So we'll get into the details of everything that happened
in a second, but before we do, you know, after
chap Equittic ted, Kennedy's career was sort of defined by
this scandal in many ways. But we were curious what
did the public think of him before that? What was
his image in the public eye before chap Equittic.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
You know, it's a good question, and I'm old, but
I'm not that old, but I will say this. He yes,
he's considered the heir apparent, but I think there was
a sense that he's a young senator at this point
in Massachusetts. But you know, there's President Kennedy JFK. There's
Bobby who really becomes this you know, incredible figure over
(06:02):
this short course of running for president of sort of
inspiration becomes sort of much deeper spiritually. He's really connecting
to people, reaching out, whether to farm workers or you know,
getting more involved in racial issues. He definitely sort of
takes on a new deeper persona. Right after the death
(06:25):
of the assassination of his brother, I think there was
probably a sense that maybe Teddy wasn't up to the task,
not that that had been proven. He was a young
senator at the time, but I think wasn't maybe considered
in the same way. I think his long career in
the Senate probably disproves that. But at this point, right
at this juncture in nineteen sixty nine, perhaps he's not
(06:46):
seen as the serious one because.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
He was really young too. He was as young as
he could possibly be as a senator. Yes, Also, I
want to explain the boiler room girls.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Yes, absolutely, and of course, and there's many things in
the story. Know when you reported that are of course
you know you wouldn't refer to somebody today as a
boiler room girl. But yes, it was. They were very,
very involved, uh in the UH in the campaign. I
think each of the women were assigned states. I know
Mary Joe Capecne was assigned certain States and was very
involved in you know, voter registration, getting people out to vote,
(07:21):
rallying the vote. So these were serious young women, very
inspired by Bobby. They were very connected to Bobby. And
what's so interesting is that, you know, because of what
happens at chap Equittic, they become very connected to Senator
Ted Kennedy. But they're really you know, believers, right, I
think they call them true believers in Bobby and uh
(07:42):
and and what he and his campaign were all about.
So yeah, they were very serious young women who really believed,
I think, in Bobby's mission.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
All right. So so now that we've set the scene,
I guess before we go into the details, you know,
in your own words, what did happen at Trapiquittic.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Well, it really depends on who you talk to. There's
the official record which people know, and basically, right, there's
this gathering of six women and I think it's six
men on that night, and it's really a reunion of
sorts for people who worked on the campaign. And I
think it's a sad one because you know, it was
(08:19):
incredible loss with the assassination of Bobby Kennedy. But what
happens that night is a woman drowns, Mary Joe Kopecne,
and there is a very long delay. Ted is driving
the car and there's a very long delay nine to
ten hours before that is reported to the authorities. So right,
that's not reported until the next morning, July nineteenth. So
(08:40):
that story of exactly what happened. There's the official account
of what Senator Kennedy put forth that's well documented, and
then there's a lot of other theories about what happened
that night. And I have my own just based on
the investigation that I did and the people that I
talked to, and it really became a story about memory
and also about privilege.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
You know.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
I just I'm going to tell you about this book.
This is this was my bible. This book is called
Senatorial Privilege by Leo de Moore, and Leo Demore is
a local reporter who digs into the case several years
after the fact and probably interviews over two hundred people.
So this book is the bible sort of for reporters
(09:19):
for finding out what happened. And I think what he
would say, and probably what I would say, is it
didn't go down the way that Senator Kennedy and others
said that it went down, Right, There's there's a lot
of strange things happened that night, happened in the aftermath,
happened because of the Kennedy's political power, you know, certain
(09:39):
things happened. I think, as somebody said, right, it was
as if there was one set of rules for the
Kennedys and one set of rules for everyone else. So
it's about the death of this young woman, Mary Joe Kopecne,
and her story gets completely eclipsed right by Senator Kennedy,
and it's really becomes a story about his political future,
and it really doesn't become a story is story about
(10:00):
the loss of this young woman.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
And how was the case at that time covered in
the media. Would you say that people were sort of
and obviously on Ted Kennedy's side. That sounds ridiculous, But
were people feeling suspicious of the entire thing was it?
Did people see it sort of as a tragedy that
was no one's fault?
Speaker 4 (10:22):
Interesting? You know, there's a famous headline. I think it's
in the New York Daily News, and I think it's
Teddy escapes, Blonde rowns and in a strange way, right,
that sort of tells you, right, the story really became
about Ted's political future, Ted's political hopes, how this is
going to affect right Ted's Will Ted become president, Will
(10:45):
Ted be able to you know, take the mantle from
you know, sort of this thing that's been handed to him,
all this expectation. But it was never about Mary Jo Kopecney.
There was so little known about her. I when I
started the investigation, I knew nothing about her. I didn't
even if anybody was alive who her. And then I became,
you know, close to her cousin, who was a very
(11:07):
important part of the story. But so in terms of
you know, I think, you know, there were certainly investigations
done about what was happening, but at the tenor of
the times is so different. You know, this is really
within six years of you know, incredible losses that the
(11:28):
Kennedy family suffers, which you know, yes, on one hand,
it has nothing to do with it, but perhaps it
also has a lot to do with, you know, how
the story unfolded. But yes, definitely there was criticism and
investigative reporters on the scene and sort of trying to
find out what really happened. But I would say the
story was really always about Ted Kennedy. That's how it
(11:48):
was covered.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
At the time.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
M hm.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And so one of the things that we find truly
interesting about his response or his public speaking after the fact,
is that he uses the word. He says that, you know,
I don't know, maybe there is some curse.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
And it was the first time that Kennedy ever referred
to any kind of Kennedy curse. And I think it
was the first time it was like mentioned on the
public record at all, Like the first time it was
sort of popularized as an idea, surprisingly was from m Kennedy,
even though then so many members of the Kennedy family
spent so much time trying to deny that there was
something like a curse. And so it's interesting that the
(12:24):
first time it was mentioned, it wasn't because of something
that quote unquote happened to them. It was about something that,
in fact, you know, was a direct result from an
action committed by a Kennedy.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
Right, this is the first time that any Kennedy has
used the term a Kennedy curse. Now, don't forget, not
only is there the loss, the incredible violence of the
loss of President Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy, but There's also
the loss of the older brother, Joe, who died in
a bombing miss mission. At the end of World War Two.
There's a loss of Kathleen Kennedy in a horrible plane accident,
(13:01):
and you know, many things will follow after that. But
I think what's so interesting about the term of a
Kennedy curse is that it's sort of one could say
that it absolves responsibility, right, because what is a curse.
Curse is something that we're not we don't control. It's
something that comes inexplicable, that comes from, you know, forces
(13:21):
greater than ourselves. When when you look at chap equitic
or when you examine chap Equittic, right, it really was
the actions of you know, somebody who was most definitely
on the planet. So it's an interesting idea. You know,
that idea followed the Kennedys, and maybe it still does
to this day. But it was something that you know,
(13:41):
it's a very it's very evocative, right, and it definitely
makes you think, oh, how could one family withstand so
much tragedy, you know, and as such incredible loss. That
is all true, however, right, it also absolves one of
some responsibility in.
Speaker 3 (13:58):
Terms of the sort of speci I want to get
into the nitty gritty of some of the biggest like
unsolved mystery. Is one thing that seems kind of shocking
in retrospect is that an autopsy was never performed. What
was the series of events that led to that?
Speaker 4 (14:15):
So do the best of my recollection. The next morning,
the medical examiner is on vacation, so his number two
arrives on the scene and I think doesn't examine. That
lasts about fifteen minutes. She's fully clothed, meaning that's when
she's taken out of the car, and he basically determines
that she has died by drowning. So because of that, right,
(14:39):
because the medical examiner determined that she had died by drowning,
they did not ask for an autopsy. So things get
more complicated from there. So then the body's flown off
the island. The next day, two become embalmed, she's buried.
The Pecknees are a very Catholic family, so several months later,
(14:59):
the DA files something for the body to be exhumed,
right so that there can be an autopsy. But there's
an exhumation hearing, So at this time there's different schools
of thought right about should the body be exzoomed, should
it not be exhumed. I spoke to the two medical
examiners who were still alive. One of them is still alive,
(15:21):
I think one of them has since passed away. Cyril
Weckt and Werner's Spitz, two of the most famous medical
examiners probably in American history, and they were each of
them was involved arguing either for or against should the
body be exumed. So one thing that's interesting is that
because the Capeknies were very Catholic, they were worried about
(15:42):
what an exhumation would entail. And they were under the
impression that the body was going to be examined to
find out if Mary Joe was a virgin or not.
So don't forget this is you know, many many over
fifty years ago. So there concerned about this, and I
(16:02):
would say, and so they actually argue asked for the
body not to be exhumed, for there not to be
an autopsy. So right fast forward, when I interviewed Georgetta Potowski,
she's Mary Joe's closest living relative. I'm just gonna I
printed it out so I could read it for you.
So this is what Georgetta was saying about Gwen. Gwen
(16:23):
is Mary Joe Kopekni's mother, Gwen Copecny. So Gwen Copecny
and Mary Joe's mother always regretted that she had opposed
an autopsy for her daughter. Years later, Gwen said it
was the biggest mistake she ever made, said Georgetta. There
should have been an autopsy. She knew it would have
cleared up a lot of things end quote. But at
the time, Mary Joe's parents were afraid the autopsy was
(16:44):
solely to determine if their daughter was pregnant, and they
did not understand its importance. Although it was ruled that
Mary Joe had died by drowning, there were always lingering
questions about exactly how long she had survived in the
car and whether she had suffocated or drowned. An autopsy
he would have likely answered those questions.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
Yeah, because I was I had always heard that her
body was in a position that meant that there was
an air pocket.
Speaker 4 (17:13):
Yeah, that's what John Ferrars says. So you know, John
ferrar is the diver, and I interviewed him. He's a
fascinating guy. So he's the man who goes in the
next morning, as soon as they find realize that there's
a car underwater. He goes in and he locates Mary Joe,
locates the car and carries her out. It's very dramatic,
very sort of tragic, you know, story. And he believes
(17:35):
that the way Mary Joe's hands or position face body
that yes, she was gasping for air and that she
had found an air pocket.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
That's what he believed, which would have meant that she
was alive for a time, possibly enough time, right, And.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
We don't know how long she was alive. You know,
the autopsy perhaps would have, you know, been able to
have narrowed that down, but we don't know could have,
and you know, we just don't know. And it's formal
to even imagine, right, that's like, yeah, it's even hard
to It was hard for me to, you know, I
had to do it because you have to understand how
Mary Joe died in order to understand the story. But yes,
it is not clear how long she was alive in
(18:14):
the car.
Speaker 3 (18:32):
So we have a mystery surrounding how exactly she died.
There is a mystery surrounding why she was in the car,
whether or not she was asleep as you say, why
another woman's purse was in the car? What are some
of the other kind of unsolved mysteries that we still
you know, people are still looking for answers too, because
this is one of those kind of cases that, you know,
(18:56):
for lack of a better term, true crime buffs really
enjoy because there are so many open questions. So what
are the other things that people sort of obsess over?
Speaker 4 (19:05):
I think for me, I was interested why the boiler
room girls never have never spoken. They're all alive, They're
all very accomplished women. I talk about them in the
last episode of the podcast. Most of them became lawyers,
had very interesting careers. One of them became an agent
at ICM, and so that they are interesting in and
(19:29):
of themselves, Right, why have they never spoken what it
was like to be you know, they're all their very
young twenties, I think at the time that night, so
there's that. I think for Mary Joe's family, it's still
not exactly clear what happened, Right, Georgetta would always say
to me, they just wanted to know what the last
(19:50):
hours were like, was she happy at the party? What
was their mood? What did they talk about? You know,
why did she get in the car? The other question?
So the other question is why, So if you know
the geography of what happens, Right, there's a tea in
the road, so there's the road that the house is on.
That the house where the party is and to my
(20:11):
best of my recollection, to the right is the Dyke Bridge, right,
the way the car crashes. To the left is the
road to the ferry. So it's almost a t right.
So why is the car that's supposed to be going
to the ferry right to get home? Why does it
go in the opposite direction?
Speaker 3 (20:33):
And we never found out whether or not Ted was intoxicated, correct,
because there was no I remember reading like someone accused
someone involved in the case, you know, why did you
why didn't you give him a breathalyzer? And the person said, well,
it was the morning after that I spoke to him.
Even if I did give him a breathalyzer, it would
not say anything useful about what happened to eight hours ago.
Speaker 4 (20:54):
Ted never takes a never takes any kind of alcohol tests,
so that's really undetermined. Another question is it's something you do. Oh,
so there's do you know the story of Huck look right?
So Huck, look is the man. I pretty sure he's
the sheriff who says who he's dead? Now? Are said
that he saw the car more or less ninety minutes
(21:15):
after Ted said he left, so I'd have to refresh
my memory. But I think Ted says he says he
leaves around eleven eleven thirty, and I think Huck sees
the car ninety minutes later, or he sees a car
that looks exactly like that. Now, don't forget he doesn't
actually see he sees I think three remembers three letters
(21:36):
or numbers from the car plate when he sees the car.
The next morning, when he goes out to the Dyke Bridge,
he says, that's the car I saw last night. He
sees the car and sort of begins to approach it.
I think he might think that they're lost or something,
because the car is close to the tee right whether
you make a left or right, and begins to approach it,
and then the car sort of revs up and speeds off,
(21:57):
so he never gets to see who's exactly in the car.
Was that timeline about right? So if it was ninety
minutes later, the ferry stopped operating at midnight, So if
the car is there ninety minutes later, that meant that
when they.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Left, they probably weren't going to the ferry.
Speaker 4 (22:13):
I mean right, because now even though the ferry operator
who was still alive, Jerry Grant, who I did interview,
he was still there till about two am. I think
he just.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, I had read something that so that you could
still call it.
Speaker 4 (22:25):
So the timeframe is is really interesting, right, And then
I mean, there's so many interests. Why did Ted swim across?
He says, he swam across. You know, the main question
is why did it take ten hours to report what
had happened. There's interesting records of phone calls that were
made from payphones in the middle of the night.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
So Liz, then what do you think really happened?
Speaker 4 (22:49):
Then, well, you have to listen to the podcast. So
it's such a complicated story, Okay, I'll just start off
with that. I probably talked about seventy people, seventy five
people maybe more or in the course of my investigation.
And there were two there were many things that stuck out.
Two things happened at the end that were really interesting.
One was a friend of Ted's who did not allow
(23:10):
me to name him and would not you know, allow
me to you know, identify him in any way. But
he said years later that Ted had told him that
Mary Joe Kapectney was asleep in the back of the
car and that he didn't know she was there. So
the next morning the car isn't discovered until the next morning.
It's overturned in a pond they called it a pond
(23:33):
beneath the chap Equittic Bridge, the Dyke Bridge, and the
car's overturned, and when the car's fished out of the water,
there's another woman's purse in the car, not Mary Joe
Capecne's car. The purse belongs to a woman named Rosemary Keo.
Rosemary Keo is one of the Boiler One girls. She's
still alive, and it's her purse in the car, not
(23:54):
Mary Joe Capekney's purse. Now, at the time of the investigation,
the best of my recollection, what she says, or others say,
is that she had gone out earlier that night with
one of the other men who were at the party
to I think it was to get a tape recorder
or cassette player or something to play music at the party,
(24:17):
and that she had left her purse there, so it
just remains a question why was another woman's purse in
the car? Perhaps, you know, it was because of that,
you know, there's other theories there. So her purse was
still at the rental house that they were all having
the party that night. So the retrieval of the purse,
(24:37):
all the strange things that happened that night and the
next morning, this all becomes sort of part of the
chap Equittic story, right. So there's the Mary Joe's death,
there's what happens to Ted's political future. But there's a
lot of layers. I really feel like it was sort
of like an onion, you know, depending on who you
spoke to. So there's red herring. Sometimes it was easy
to get lost, you know, in a tract of you know,
(24:58):
at one point, I was dealing with the bagmen of Watergate,
because one of them is sent up at the behest
of Richard Nixon the next morning to investigate what happened.
Because don't forget, President Nixon is worried about Ted Kennedy,
you know, as a possible presidential contender. So Nixon is
also very involved. So there's a lot of layers to
(25:20):
the case, there's a lot of theories about what happened,
and then there's a lot of strange things that happened.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
I guess I even am confused as to if she
was sleeping in the back seat, why is she sleeping
in the back seat of that car when they're in
a house that has bedrooms.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Like that even is very strange. The family received a letter.
This was right around the time I was doing the podcast.
I'm not allowed to say too much about the letter,
but I know who wrote the letter, and I refer
to that person as the letter writer, and the letter
writer get together with somebody who was at the party
years later, and that person a letter writer called that
(26:00):
person Betty. I think it was a pseudonym, and the
letter writer said that Betty had said that there was
no There was a very small cottage to my recollection,
I think it was two bedrooms, and that there was
no room for her and no forget they're having a
party and it's a raucous party and there's drinking and
there's music, and you know, they're carousing, and there was
(26:21):
no quiet place for somebody to sleep. And I think
they said Mary Joe had a little too much to
drink so that she went into the backseat of Ted's oldsmobile.
Speaker 3 (26:32):
And so after all of this, Ted is only charged
with leaving the scene of an accident after causing personal injury.
And so, I know, you know, there's been talk of
the fact that there are different rules for Kennedy's than
for everyone else. What is your take on the process
of criminal justice after what happened? I mean, how did
(26:53):
we get from such a kind of messy night with
so many open questions to sort of a slap on
the rest.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Right, he's charged with leaving the scene of an accident.
You know, I'm going to quote from this book, if
that's okay with you, because the More just did such
an exhaustive, you know, multi year investigation. So he at
the end of his book he cites an investigation that
the Boston Globe did in nineteen seventy four. Right, this
is just a head of nineteen seventy six, when it's
(27:22):
believed that Ted may you know, run for president. So
I'm just going to read this is from page four twelve.
Senator Kennedy granted a two hour interview to a team
of investigative reporters. Use it from the Globe to discuss
the accident for the first time since the inquest. He
continued to insist his version of the accident was accurate.
(27:44):
The widespread skepticism about his inquest testimony was quote unwarranted
and unjustified, he said, quote I attempted during the course
of the inquest to respond to these questions completely, candidly, honestly,
in to the best of my ability end quote. His
conduct had been quote irrational and indefensible, and inexcusable and inexplicable.
(28:04):
He said, I was at that time obsessed by grief
at the loss of a life. It was strictly a
state of mind. Okay, Now, Leo Gozanda right. But Kennedy
cleared up none of the contradictions involved in the accident
or quote. The nearly one hundred discrepancies in the testimony
and statements by key inquest witnesses, preferential treatment by law
enforcement and judicial officials had saved Kennedy from being charged
(28:28):
with serious crimes, including manslaughter. The Globe concluded in its
four part series routine investigative and judicial procedures had been
either altered or botched numerous times by apprehensive officials and
overwhelming deference to Kennedy's power and prestige. End quote. Justice
was not served, hard questions were not asked of witnesses,
(28:49):
and complaints and indictments not pursued. End quote. So de
More is quoting the Boston Globe that did the investigation
into the piece. I know that's long, but I can't
say it better than that.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
No, that's great. I like the apprehensive officials is kind
of the key there. I feel like in a lot
of pieces here.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
I'm sort of interested in, Like, I guess what I'm
interested I think what we're interested in is. You know,
you've spoken to Mary Joekapekney's surviving family, and on the
one hand, at the time it seemed like they also
you know, they also did not call for an autopsy.
There was not, from what I understand, a giant amount
of disagreement between the Kennedy camp and their camp about
(29:30):
how to handle the case. But of course now there
is still a kind of a movement to seek justice,
whatever that may mean for them. So could you talk
a little bit about how her surviving relatives have expressed
themselves to the public and how their image of the
night has changed over time.
Speaker 4 (29:51):
I would say the Kopeknes were not you know, there's
a political machine right that they're dealing with. At the time,
they were modest people. Mary Joe was their only daughter.
They were completely grief stricken. I think what Georgetta explained
to me was they definitely believed they were going to
(30:12):
get some answers, right from Senator Kennedy or other people
at the party about what really happened, and they're completely
grief stricken. I think at the funeral, I think there's
photos of mister Capecnie holding up Gwen like. It's photos
that are, you know, very difficult, hard to look at,
and so they're completely you know, bref at this time.
(30:32):
So I think there was a sense that they were
going to get answers from their part. This is according
to Georgetta, the cousin, So just to clear that up.
I think they thought they were going to get some answers,
some explanation. Now you know, they're they're pretty private. They
wrote a small self published book they called it Our
Mary Joe, so they have a scholarship in her name.
(30:54):
You know, what Georgetta would said to me a lot
is that they just wanted answers, mostly about what happened,
and mostly about you know, that night, what her mood was.
Why was there so much secrecy surrounding things at the end,
Why the ten hour delay? So I think they mostly
just wanted answers and clarity about what happened, because like
even they couldn't get answers right. And it's was their
(31:17):
you know, their family member. Why is it still shrouded
in so much mystery?
Speaker 3 (31:22):
Do they, for lack of a better word, blame the
Kennedy machine for this or do they see it as
a larger question that is, you know, unfortunately a tragedy
that they will never fully comprehend. What is their relationship
to the Kennedys.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
They mostly just wanted answers. I think they feel like
they had been misled a little bit, you know, And
I think they wanted Mary Joe to be considered as
a person, as a human being, as a young woman,
not you know, blonde drowns. She was a really really
interesting woman. You know, she wanted to go into politics.
(31:58):
She had taught for a year, I think in Alabama.
You know, there was so much idealism in that time,
you know, working for Bobby. I can't remember that was
that must have been before, but she was a really
interesting woman, and I think they wanted, you know, of
course just her to be recognized for who she was,
but also they wanted, you know, they want the truth.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
So it's sort of a twofold idea of justice. They
want the truth about what happened, but they also in
the media narrative, want her to be more central to
the story, considering that was the great loss not Ted
Kennedy's political career.
Speaker 4 (32:29):
I don't want to speak for them, but yes, I
think that those two things are given.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
I think that's very relatable understandable that when there is
a tragedy like this that really the most that you
can have is clarity. That's kind of the best that
you can hope for, is just to have some clarity
on what happened when on succession. They made this rather
(33:11):
clear reference to chap equitic. To me, this is one
of the first things you think of when you think
about the Kennedys, but for some people it is not
at the forefront. And I think that that is interesting.
But I was wondering, like, if you had any thoughts
about that when that happened on succession or that just
being you know, sixty years later, back in like the
(33:32):
pop culture conversation.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
You know, I didn't watch Succession. I know it's considered
like incredible and I probably should, but I think it's
incredibly interesting, of course, and it's interesting that the mystery
lives on all these years later. You know, when I
started looking into it, I think I knew three lines
about that story, right, Something strange happened, A young woman died.
There had been a delay. That's really all I knew then.
(33:55):
And I ended up doing a podcast, and I remember thinking, like, oh, oh, oh,
my god, I have to do a podcast, and I
really don't know anything about it, and why was that? Like,
I mean, I knew other things. I did report a
lot on the Kennedy's for People magazine. I report on
a lot of other things too, but I didn't know.
I did not know that story, right, other than just
sort of that brief right brushstrokes. But then once you
(34:18):
look into it, it's right, everything's converging in that story, right,
political power, privilege, you know, the tenor of the times politics,
so it's you know, it really was one of the
most is one of the most fascinating stories I've ever
looked into. One thing that's so interesting is there are
(34:39):
a lot of people still alive. Now, a lot of
people are gone, but a lot of people are still
alive who lived through it, who played a part, you know,
people in law enforcement. And yet even during the course
of that investigation, people several very key important people died.
Joe Gargan died, Paul Markham died, and that was I
think even in the course of right around the time
(34:59):
I was doing it. But there are a lot of
people still alive and the like, there's a haunting quality
to that story, to this story, right, like what happened,
you know, just going back to what you said before,
it was really about the truth, right, But the Capetnis
wanted was the truth what happened. And the fact that
we're still talking about it all these years later, right,
why is it? I thinks still not one hundred percent clear.
(35:23):
So you know, there's a Yes, it's a very haunting story.
I was haunted by it.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
What was the response after the podcast was released? Did
you hear after the fact, after the final episode was released,
did you hear from anyone if you feel comfortable saying,
did you hear from anyone saying you know, either you
got it right, or how dare you?
Speaker 1 (35:44):
Uh?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
You know, I had a there's a Facebook page that
probably hasn't been too active in a long time, but
I had the cover up has a Facebook page, and
I got some interesting responses that people would send, you know,
notes to us. There was me, several other producers, and
(36:06):
one person said, maybe more than one person said that's
the story. That's what I was told. These people were
connected in various ways. But you know, I think at
the last episode of the podcast, I called the story
like a rashamn story, right, because you'll find this in
the course of your own podcast, right, that there was
(36:26):
different versions about what happened that night. But yes, I
was led to believe that, and I do believe it.
And I did get some responses that said that that
was correct. But you know, these are not people that
go on the record or that I can interview or
that I can even name, And of course, you know,
I have to be open to the idea that something
else might have happened, you know. And I was thinking
(36:48):
about it today because I knew I was gonna, you know,
do the interview with you, and I thought, wow, what if,
you know, maybe something completely different happened that this book.
I cannot recommend it enough. If you're on the beach
some light summer reading, it's said, it's a tour de
force of reporting of and and if you even want
to go deeper. His papers are at Kent State University.
(37:11):
And if there's all, I did a whole episode about
the episode six of the podcast about so Leo Demore
is probably a subject for podcast in and of himself.
And his papers are at Kent State and there's probably
thirteen or fourteen boxes. I had two days to go
through them, and I like, I like, I like, I
never moved because it's fast. There's a lot of stuff
(37:32):
that don't even make it into that book. And he
interviews almost anybody, So yes, there's a lot of there's
a lot more to the story. How's that?
Speaker 3 (37:40):
And that book again is senatorial privilege for anyone listening. Yeah,
And it has a really great, sort of fabulous eighties
cover right now.
Speaker 4 (37:47):
It got reissued, got reissued at the time of the documentary.
It's the same book, but it has a different title.
I forgot what they called it. But it's it's an
amazing and his story is interesting and how and how
well he gets people to talk and he got Joe
Gargin right. So Joe Gargan is Ted's cousin, He's one
of the men at the party, and he interviews Joe
(38:07):
Gargin maybe been the only one that really ever interviewed him.
So yes, if you want to keep going on the
chap Equittic story, I highly recommend it.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
I think part of what is interesting to us and
why we want to do this podcast is to explore specifically,
like the cultural fascination with the Kennedys. It just is
this enduring American mythology that people keep going back to.
And I think with people like RFK Junior and with
people like Jack Schlossberg, we're kind of in a new
even Patrick Schwarzenegger, who people have, We're kind of in
(38:37):
a new or very kind of slightly weird or different
era of Kennedy worship and Kennedy fascination. So I think
maybe we can end on this like, what do you
think keeps people coming back to the Kennedy is What
do you think like attracts Americans so much to the
Kennedy story.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
Well, first of all, there's not one person to write about, right,
It's not like I'm just your there's how many members
of the Kennedy family are there now, I don't know.
So there's a lot of people to write about. Right,
there's the Shrivers, there's you know, and all the good
works that they've done. There's Rosemary Kennedy. Have you done
a podcast as far that was probably we will, but
(39:20):
if I was going to say the most interesting story,
and there's an incredible book that was written about her
by a woman named Kate Larson and did a cover
story on that. So there's her story. Then there's the
right Then there's the children and the children of and
then there were what generation are we on that, right?
The fourth generation, you know, and then Carrie Kennedy marries
Andrew Cuomo and there's you know, there's her daughters and
(39:41):
all the different you know, some are more public, some
are more private. So you know, the ancestors, I guess
you would say the first generation. Right, that's all pre
the pre social media and even up until John right,
John is pre social media, pre iPhone, So there was
a lot that people didn't know. So there's just I
don't know there, you know, they there's also this real
(40:03):
idealism I think attached to the family, like when you
listen to a speech, well, even when I listened to
a snippet of a speech by Bobby or JFK, how
could you not be inspired. I'm inspired. People don't. Politicians
don't talk like that anymore, right, sort of lofty and
but idealistic and yet easily understandable, right, very connected to
working people. So they're sort of, you know, very interesting
(40:27):
idealism there that they sort of connected you to something
maybe better than yourselves, deeper than yourselves. And then there's
of course all the tragedies and the scandals and all
the things that you know, surround them. So I don't know,
there's sort of nobody like them. There's so vast and uh,
there's so much good right, and there's so much you know, uh,
(40:49):
dark stuff also connected to them that I would just say,
you know, endlessly, endlessly fascinating.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Thank you so much. This is really great to talk
to you than much.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
You're taking the time. This was really great.
Speaker 4 (41:01):
Okay, bye everybody.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Liz McNeil is the editor at large at People. She
is also the author of the new book, which comes
out in paperback this fall, JFK. Junior, an intimate oral biography. Liz,
Thanks so much so that's it for this week's episode.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Next week, we're talking about Carolyn Bessett Kennedy and her
truly immeasurable impact on fashion and her life on the
tabloid spotlight.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all
things Kennedy every week.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
Thanks for listening.
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