December 5, 2025 • 39 mins
'Apt.' co-writer Theron Thomas discusses the ins and outs of being one of the music industry's most consistently successful songwriters. He reminisces on his early days making music in his native St. Thomas, and he traces his career trajectory to the present day.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey there, it's Rusty Gaston, CEO of Sony Music Publishing, Nashville.
I want to tell you about our brand new podcast,
Thank a Songwriter. Each episode, I sit down with the
incredible songwriters behind the hits that you love. We have
honest conversation about creativity, collaboration, and their individual journeys to
(00:25):
their biggest hits. These conversations will make you hear music
in a whole new way. Tune in wherever you get
your podcast to Thank a Songwriter, because greatness deserves gratitude.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Welcome back to Strictly Business and He's weekly podcast featuring
conversations with media's brightest about the ins and outs of
the respective industries. I'm Stephen J. Horwitz, Senior music writer
with riety these guests is Tihran Thomas, the music industry
titan who has forged concurrent paths as both a songwriter
and artist since debuting in two thousand and eight as
(01:08):
one half of Our City alongside his brother Timothy. Tihran
has found success in the spotlight, with the group scoring
the top ten hit locked Away featuring Animal Van in
twenty fifteen, but it's been behind the scenes that Tihran
has maintained a high profile, becoming one of the music
industry's most dependable songwriters. Over the past two decades, Tihran
(01:29):
has had a hand in writing hits including Miley Cyrus's
We Can't Stop and Brianna's Man Down. More recently, collaborating
with artists including Justin Timberlake and ge Dragon. His latest
smash was with Rose and Bruno Mars's apt, a song
that recently earned three Grammy nominations for Song and Record
of the Year. Tihran is no stranger to the Grammys himself,
(01:51):
becoming the second person to win the award for Songwriter
of the Year Non Classical in twenty twenty four, and
in industry where getting in the room is a battle
unto itself, Tieran sheris his story on how you went
from an aspiring musician from the US Virgin Islands to
one of the biggest hip makers in the biz. Where
I want to start with you is talking about the
most recent news that has come into your worlds, which
(02:13):
is a a song by Rose and Bruno Mars just
got nominated for three Grammys. Congratulations, thank you, Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
So I want to ask.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
You all about what it takes to put together a
song like this. From what I understand, there were eleven
songwriters on this one. And for those who are not
necessarily tuned into the songwriting business, how does eleven people
in a room?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
How did they write a song together?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Well, just so you know, eleven people aren't ever in
a room. It's probably no more than five. But what
happens is producers are counted as songwriters, so you know,
you might you might have the guy that played the
melody line on the chorus with his keyboard, he's mentioned
(03:01):
as a writer. Everybody that's mentioned as a writer isn't
somebody who came up with a lyric or the melody
that you sing. It could be a part of production
as well. Then how you come up with eleven writers
is the original group was Amy, Allen, Omerfetti, Tyran, Thomas,
Circuit and Rosie. Then Rosie plays it for Bruno. Bruno
(03:27):
is like, yod, this is fire. Let you know, Bruno
brings in his his guys to be like, hey, let's
soup it up. So it yes, it's still Rosie, but
it fits a little bit more with Bruno, you know.
So he brought in his crew too, and that's how
that's how it became like this this cob collaborative gumbo
(03:49):
of creators, as I would say, you know, but it
turned out to be great. I think everybody's very happy
with the outcome of the song, and we're very proud
of it and super grateful for everybody who participated everything,
even even if it was a sentence or a word
or we don't care. It's like, you know what I mean,
three Grammys later and one of the biggest songs, and
(04:12):
you know, of my career, one of them. I'm super
super grateful.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So the way that you're describing it is this sort
of like a typical process for songwriting where a song
can get passed around from various people.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
A lot of people could be chiming in different places.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Is there sort of a typical way to write a
song for you, No.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
That's not a typical way. What it is is when
you're dealing with superstars, you know, like a like a
Rosie from Black Pink or Bruno Mars, what happens is
everybody has a team, everybody has ideas, so it becomes
something like that. If it was Rosy song by herself,
it would have stopped, you know what I mean. But
(04:54):
it's like, if me and you wrote a song, and
let's say me and you write a song together, it's
it's me you make the beat, I write the song.
We own one hundred percent of the song. But now
we send the song to Lizzo, and now Lizzo is like, ooh,
I think we should add horns, that we shoulda da
da da, and we should change this. And I don't
like the second verse as much, but Lizzo brings in
(05:17):
her writing partner, and so it went from two to four.
You know what I'm saying, gotcha?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And as I mentioned, this song is up for three
Grammys at the twenty twenty six Awards, which is amazing
but obviously not your first radio.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
When it comes to the Grammys, you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Were the second person to ever win Songwriter of the
Year Nonclassical.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Yes, yes, second person, tell me first black person, but
second human.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Well those are two great accomplishments. So you've been an
artist for decades and you've been a songwriter for just
as long. What is something like that mean to you
at this point in your career?
Speaker 4 (05:57):
The Grammys, I mean, it just means so much because
the Grammys is an awards ceremony judged by our peers.
You know, it's not like how it's like other award
show wheres like oh the fans get to call in
and say it's their favorite and they love the artists,
and you know it's really the Grammys is more like
(06:19):
you know, fellow songwriters produce as musicians and people of music,
creative and non creative as well, sit down and really
have a conversation about like this is great, you know
what I mean? And I mean it just it just
means a lot. I mean, if anybody knows me, like
I said, I'm a kid from Same Thomas, Virgin Island.
(06:39):
Same Thomas is thirty two square miles I left in
two thousand and My first hit song was when I
Grow Up by the Pussycat Dolls and where the pussy
Cat Dolls won an EMPTV Award and thanked us on MTV.
And that was for me and my brother were at
(07:01):
home like, oh my god, what is We were so
excited and now years later, not only still being in
a music business, but still being relevant as a creative
and still getting the calls and still having polished and
(07:22):
seasoned artists called but brand new artists who are like yo, bro,
you don't understand, bro, I've always loved you. My dream
is to work with you. You're like, what, you know,
I'm still the kid from Saint Thomas in my mind,
you know, So yeah, it means the world to me,
you know, because I've wanted to do this since I
was nine years old, and I'm like, you know, I mean,
(07:45):
not everybody gets to live their nine year old dreams
as an adult.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Take me back to those early days. You you're talking
about the group that you have with your brother.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
The group is called our City Rock City for some
folks who are tuned in. And do you always have
the idea that you wanted to pursue being both an
artist and a songwriter as sort of like a separate
vocation or did that's come naturally with the territory.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Man, I didn't even know songwriting was a job. I
didn't know people, you know. I coming from Saint Thomas
and being in an amusement, I thought everybody wrote the songs.
I'm a father of six and my first kid, my
first kid. I was twenty one years old. I was
flat broke and working at Party City and just just
at you know, like at the end of my robe,
(08:32):
Like what am I going to do. And there's a
song that I wrote when I was in the seventh
grade during a hurricane. It's called the Rain and I
read me and my brother reformulated it, and Akon on
his second album, Convicted, used the song. Well, Akon paid
me and my brother five thousand dollars to get this
(08:53):
to sing the song. And again, I'm working at Party
City part time. And that's the most money I've ever
gotten in my life at the time at once, and
I was like, people that write songs get five thousand dollars.
And I at that time, I used to carry all
my songs in a backpack in which I still have.
It's in my closet and it's just a bunch of
(09:15):
loose paper. I don't even remember how those songs go.
I just have all the songs. And with all honesty,
I just wanted to feed my daughter, man, you know,
and I grew up. I come from you know, extreme poverty.
You know. Some people are like, oh, man, I'm like no,
like I'm you know, extreme poverty, and and I just
(09:37):
was like, man, I don't want my daughter to grow
up like that. And songwriting was like yo, as artists,
nobody cares, but this song that I wrote. Me and
my brother wrote it for us. It was our song,
and we played for Akon and he ended up, you know,
our best friend played it for Akon and he ended
up like, yeah, I love it, Da da da and
(09:59):
paid us five brand And I was just like, yeah,
let's do that songwriting thing more because people pay that,
you know. Let's do that to make money so I
can take care of my daughter, you know. And so
that's how I got into songwriting, like, you know, based
off of necessity, Like yo, bro, I gotta do something
(10:20):
to buy this formula and these dipers. So if it's songwriting, cool,
let's make it happen, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I remember when you guys debuted. It was around the
same time that Lady Gaga debuted as well, and she
was in business with Akon as well, and she was
writing songs for other people too. She ended up going
the mainly artist route. She writes all of her own songs,
but she's not writing a lot of songs for other people.
But at the same time that you're pursuing our city,
(10:49):
you're also writing these massive hits for other people. So
how do you reconcile those two things and keep your focus.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Well, it was a very difficult thing in our city,
you know, coming from the Virgin Islands, Like we were
trying to find ourself as artists and sound and sonic
and so we were at in a scope, We were
at Convict, Geffen, con Live, Geffen, through in a scope
and we had been working and I think we were
(11:19):
talented and we and we still are. We do everything.
But as an artist, when you're trying to sell something,
you can't you know what I mean, I can't sell
you a purple orange, blue, pink black shirt. You know,
It's like, yo, what what are we what scheme unless
it's tie died, what scheme are you going for? And
(11:41):
I think we found that years later when we when
we signed to Keimo Sabi and we did our song
Lopped Away with Adam Levine, and we was like, oh,
you know, because we had worked with Sean Kingson and
we had worked with Ayas, and we was like all
of these guys are like Caribbean pop crossover groups and
we were fighting it so much, like no, no, no,
(12:03):
no no. And once we got the opportunity, once we
got with Kimo Sabi, and we was like told, hey,
I mean you guys are good, but you guys are
really really good when you do that. That's when it
went that way. But writing, but right, we were so
(12:23):
successful as writers that when we had to hit with
Adam Lazeen, it's like, okay, we were writers, very successful,
Like we was already you know, financially stable and doing well,
our families were doing well. And as a songwriter, they
would fly fly us first class and put us in
a nice hotel. Well as an artist with one song,
(12:46):
they would be like, yeah, you guys are going to
the embassy suites and you guys got to figure out
how you're gonna get to the interview at five. And
we was like, yeah, but I'm already a big deal.
What are you talking about? And that was a very
hard thing to grasp, you know what I mean, And
it made it really difficult for a while. And once
(13:10):
we put out an album and went on tour, touring,
was just like this sucks like to me because I mean,
you know, I was married, I'm still I still you know,
me and my wife are celebrating sixteen years of marriage
on the twenty of December, thank you, and I'm like, yo,
I'm married, I got my kids and I'm like, I'm
missing a whole bunch of stuff, like out here saying
(13:31):
I want to go home, you know what I mean,
And so kind of like more focusing on that and
getting to that space and then just wanting to be
like known as a huge writer. I kind of went
into that place, was like, if I'm not good at okay,
so if I'm not gonna be gaga, I want to
(13:51):
be gaga of writing songs for people if that means
I'm like, how do I become the biggest person behind
the scenes. And so I kind of focused on that
up until like again the you know, twenty twenty, we're
twenty twenty five, yet twenty twenty four bramd Me's one
songwriter a year, and for me that was like, okay, guys,
(14:13):
I'm one of the biggest yep YEP. I did it.
I did what I said I was gonna do, and
just balancing it now, I feel like I got a
better balance of how I want to do it because
our city, we're about to put out a new record,
a new single March of twenty twenty six, and we're
super excited and there's no pressure with like making music
(14:35):
that we love and We're having a good time and
we've made great relationships, so we have cool features and
cool people to collaborate with. And I'm still writing like
songs and still calling all the cool rooms, and I'm
working on great things, and I have artists of my
own now, like it's just like fire. You know, I
love it.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more of
Variety's Strictly Business after this break.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Hey again. If you're loving this show, you'll want to
check out our brand new podcast, Thank a Songwriter, hosted
by me Rusty Gaston, CEO of Sony Music Publishing, Nashville,
where we shine a spotlight on the unsung heroes of
the music world, the songwriters. On each episode, I sit
(15:27):
down with some of the best songwriters in the business
to hear the stories behind their greatest hits and your
favorite songs. Thank a Songwriter is available now wherever you listen.
Speaker 5 (15:40):
And we're back with more of Variety's Strictly Business. Interview
with songwriter Tehran Thomas.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
As a songwriter, you it obviously became a more of
a priority following arcity tour, the massive success you have
with Adam Lavine's song and where are these opportunities coming
from for those who don't know, how do you get
in a room with a Rihanna or get a song
to someone like a Rihanna or Justin Bieber, both who
(16:07):
are artists you have written for.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
And the music business has changed so much so back
in the day, getting a song to an artist was
a bit easier because it was a lot more channels, right,
So I could send my song to Deaf Jam who
Rihanna was signed to, who had a relationship with Rihanna,
and they could send it to Rihanna if they loved it,
(16:30):
or they could play for her manager or you know,
played for Jay Z or there was a numerous amount
of people around the artists that'd be like, no, this
song is a hit. We have well now in this
new music business. And that's why I'm super grateful, because
you have to be requested, like not like you know,
(16:52):
selling a song to an artist is not like, oh,
I send it to a friend and gets it. It's
more of a request either by the artists or the
people working with the artists. Like let's go back to
apt omer Fetti called me and was like, Yo, I'm
working with Rosie of Black Pink and me and Amy.
We've been writing these songs and we've been in with
(17:12):
her bro O T. I needed TRN Special bro pull
up on us, you know, and I'm like, okay, cool,
you know. And that's how I got into the room
with Rosie. You know. When I met Rosie, Rosie, Rosie
didn't know me, and you know what I'm saying, I
knew Black Pink. So it's like, oh, okay, and we
just met each other and and we and we did
and we worked together. I think we did two days,
(17:37):
you know, And and out of those two days, APT
was created. Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
So obviously you've had a very accomplished career. I've mentioned
songs for Rihanna like Man Down, and you wrote on
we Can't Stop for Miley Cyrus. These are massive hits.
And you talk about how the nature of the music
business has changed how you get those opportunities, And I'm
curious if you also have had an attitude shift, or
(18:04):
maybe a perception shift towards what a hit actually is,
especially in the streaming economy where we are in twenty
twenty five, How do you.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Define the success of a song These days.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
It's numerous ways to define it. Back then, it was like, yo,
if you're in Billboard top ten, if you know are you?
Are you charting on radio? Which are all signs still
of success? You know what I'm saying. But I think
you know, Spotify top fifty Global, Spotify top fifty US
(18:36):
is now a chart that that means a lot, that
matters to a lot of creatives. Like let's see what's
going on. I would say, people knowing your song, you
know what I'm saying. Like TikTok is something that oh man, like, yo, bro,
we got we got eighty thousand videos of on our
(18:59):
song on TikTok gives it a sense of successful. But
as far as financially, if we're going to talk about
how we make money, like radio is still king, man,
radio is still king, and worldwide radio is still king.
So as a creative, even all the new writers and
producers and everybody coming up, I'm still like, yo, bro,
(19:21):
you want to make hit songs that can play on
the radio, that people could sing along and play everywhere.
You know, sinks are a really big deal in this
new music business. So commercials and movies. The thing about
commercials and movies, you know, if you have a crazy, dirty,
raunchy song, right now. If it's not big, if it's
(19:45):
not big at all, you're like really really fighting to
get people to want it, to play it somewhere in
a commercial, and it is now if it's huge, if
it's just like whoa, what a massive hit like I
Got a hole call and that scheck weest like, you know,
cause I just heard that in like a film, like
(20:06):
I want to say this today or yesterday, if I'm
not mistaken. But a song like that being so big,
it can get a lot of sinks. But before it's big,
people are like, no, you know what I'm saying. But
there's songs that are super sinkable that don't have to
be big. You know, it has a nostalgia to it.
(20:27):
It sounds like, you know a lot of the times
they're using like old school songs and a lot of things.
And imagine if you have an old school if you
have an old school new sound like Yo, this kind
of gives me a sixties, a forties, a fifties, a
seventies and eighties, but it's new and it's not dirty,
and oh man, instead of using Madonna, how about we
(20:49):
use this new artist that still fits the vibe, you know,
and those things. Those things matter. So again, making money,
it's a lot more ways to make money, but it's
harder to make money right.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Well, on the topic of a song like APT eleven
people who are credited as a songwriter, as we began
this discussion with when you go into the studio, are
you mindful of something like that the splits and and
do you prefer to have a smaller pool of people
to work with for this exact reason?
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Well, normally on normally I never go over five, Like
if I set up a session, I'm like, yo, bro,
no more than five people in a room at a time,
because you know, we can split it evenly. Everybody gets
twenty percent. Incredible, Listen, God is good. Everybody made money today. Family,
you know, everybody's families should be good if we write
(21:45):
APT you know. But again, on a rare occasion, sometimes
you write a song that's really great, You send it
to Bruno, you send it to God, somebody big, and
they're like, yo, I really love this song. But I'm
(22:06):
a writer, a producer. I'm a creative creative as well.
How do I how do I make the song a
little bit more me all, In the case of a duet,
balance it so it's more me and the artists, so
we're not going through any so it doesn't sound like
a copy paste or just like oh this, you know
what I'm saying, like making it more them. So you
(22:30):
could get an occasion where you like, again, we could
own one hundred percent of a song, but Maley Cyrus
gets it and says, I rewrote the second verse. Okay,
you know what I'm saying. And that happens, and you know,
I'm cool with that, you know, but sometimes on an
occasion like apt you you know, more than the amount
(22:52):
of people that you would have loved to have been
a part of the song get involved and you're like, yo, man,
hits are hard. Excuse me, hits are hard to come by,
and however we get them, I'm gonna take them.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
To that point, are you going into the studio with
artists thinking we gotta write ahead.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Every day every day in my life because I think
inten counts, you know, I think in ten counts. I
think in the process of making art, I think people
in making art for commerce, you have to think on
the biggest version of it. Now, if you don't want
to make art for commerce, yo, you could be a busker.
(23:30):
You can write your songs and play it in your car.
But if you're in the music business and you want
to be around, you want to be like Max Martin,
and you know you want to be around, you want
to be like Yo, I've been in the business for
thirty years and I'm still relevant and they still call me.
I think your intention every time you get in the
studio should be to write the biggest song of your
(23:52):
ability that I can't say, you know what I mean.
I can't say like, oh yo, this is going to
be a hit, okay, whatever, But I'm trying to write
the biggest song that I can write. Every day, every
chance I get in hopes that we get an APT
we get in about damn time we get a we
can't stop, we get a locked the way, you know,
(24:14):
And that's just that's just my goal. I can't speak
for everybody else.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Well, the songs that you just mentioned are obviously all
songs that you wrote on, but they're all very different stylistically.
You are chameleonic when it comes to songwriting across genre lions.
When you get into the studio with an artist or
you know that you're gonna be sending a demo of
something to an artist who's looking for tracks, Do you
(24:40):
feel like you have to cater to the style that
they already have or are you trying to push them
in new directions? How do you like to approach that
part of the songwriting process.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
I am a pusher, so I'm kind of like I'm
making okay if you're not in a room with me,
and I'm like, yo, man, I've been listening to Steven's
music for like five years. I'm a fan. I love
his songs as a film. You know what Stephen hasn't
done that I would like to hear personally this And
by the way, sometimes I nail it. Sometimes I'm like whoa, Yes,
(25:15):
sometimes I bomb. It's like that was terrible. But you
know it's like so, I mean that's when i'm writing
on my own, I'm trying to come up with ideas
because I'm just trying to do like this is where
I think you should be going. And when I'm with
the artist and I get more information, it's a lot
more helpful and I'm a lot better, you know, with
(25:36):
Rosie being in a room and because I was just
like I kind of like study music from a psycho
psychology sense, so I was like, Okay, outside of BTS,
all the K pop songs have some Korean in it. Okay,
(25:58):
all of the Black Pink songs except for Ice Screamed
with Selena Gomez had Korean in it, and their biggest
songs have Korean in it. So the whole time, I'm like, Yo,
I think the right thing for them to do, even
if it's an English song is do something Korean, even
(26:19):
if it's small, because I think that's the that's the catch,
that's the like, hey, everybody, this is I know it
sounds familiar, but it's different. And she was in the
studio playing the game and I just was like, oh, wow,
when did you guys make that song. That's a pretty
(26:40):
cool song. She was like, that's not a song. What
do you mean? What do you mean it's not a song. No,
it's a game. It's a it's a drinking game that
we play in Korea. And I'm like, so, let me
ask you this. Every single person in Korea knows what
that is. She's like yeah. I was like, yeah, that's
the song to do today, all right, and you know,
(27:04):
so we ended up getting it from there, and I
just even when we bro I'm not gonna and I'm
not always right. But when we did AP we Can't Stop,
I was like, this is the biggest song ever. I
just was like, this is a hit and apt I
was like, Yo, this is the Macarena. I know. I
know for a fact that this song is the Macharna,
(27:27):
you know. And again, I'm just glad to work with
people that trust me when I'm crazy, you know what
I mean, because I'm not. I'm not always right, and
but the time is when I'm right, Man, what a time.
So I'm just grateful that you know, omer Amy Rosie Circuit,
(27:49):
Like everybody involved were like, okay, I guess you know,
and we went with it and now we're here. So
I love it, man. I like what I love. I
love it when a plan comes together right together.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I think one of the luxuries of being a creative
in any field, but particularly in music and especially in songwriting,
is the luxury of saying no.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
And I'm curious for.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Those who can't see tyran as pumping as fist, I'm
curious if you do have that luxury at this point
in your career, and how often are you exercising that luxury.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
I'm saying no all the time. I'm like, I'm in
Atlanta right now. Me and my family live in LA
but we're home. We're at our home in Atlanta right
now for Thanksgiving, and my family from the Virgin Islands
is here. My wife's family, you know, is here, and
we're having Thanksgiving and the kids are screaming and running
and and you know, I have a whole bunch of Yo, Toronto,
(28:54):
can you work this day and work that day? No O?
Can you do this? Can you do that? No? Now,
now I'm in a space in my career I honestly
want to work with I want to be a part
of like breaking new talent, you know what I mean,
I really do, you know. For for for one, it's
a new challenge for myself, Like, Yo, I wonder nobody
(29:16):
knows John and I'm gonna get in the studio with
John and We're gonna work and I'm gonna give him
songs and then whoa John is selling out arenas. Oh
my god. It's started with just ideas in the in
the back of the house, you know, And I'm super
interested in in in going forward with that, and then
with with like celebrities and superstars, you know. Again, obviously,
(29:40):
I know I'm in the music business. So you know,
if Sabrina Carpenter ever calls wink wink, you know what
I'm saying, I'll definitely come a run in. I just
want to go where I'm called work on things that
make me excited, you know, because I want to make
the music that I like, you know, and so far
the things that I've like has been pretty big. So
I think I have I think I got good taste,
(30:02):
and yeah, so I'm saying no to the things. When
I first started, I would say yes to everything because
I was like, I just want to make sure my
family is good. And now I'm kind of like, no,
I don't want to do that because I don't think
I can help. I think I want to help. So
if I'm like, no, I don't think I can, I
don't see myself making that the biggest so I'll I'll
(30:28):
just chill. That's how I feel.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
A lot of people don't realize, especially if you're a
fan in today's age and if you're like a stand
quote unquote, I see this a lot, that.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
The music business is a business.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
You just reference this, and a lot of people have
to learn that hard way, especially when they're coming into
the industry. I'm curious if there's a moment that stands
out to you where you did get hit in the
face with that lesson that this really is a business
and it's not always about the music.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
Yeah. I mean my first publishing deal, I was in
it for ten years and I couldn't get out of it,
and I and you know, and I and it really
was like it just shook me up to like whoa
you know. And I signed it and I agreed to it,
and I was so and I would look, I was
excited that they gave me the money, and I spent
the money and I did all the stuff, and I
(31:16):
was like, yo, bro, you have to protect yourself because
it's bigger than you. Now. It's about your wife and
your kids and your you know, and the people in
your family. So I think my first pub deal, and
I mentioned my first pub deal taught me every lesson. Bro.
My first pub deal was one point five million. I was.
I spent all the money, owe the IRS four hundred
(31:36):
and sixty eight thousand dollars back taxes. The IRS froze
my accounts. I hadn't you know. My wife was a
stay at home mom. I was like, how are we
going to pay our bills? I was scared, hit list.
You know what I'm saying. We were in the contract
for ten years and based on it because we signed
(31:57):
and by the way, it wasn't nobody did me dirty.
That's not what I'm saying, like, oh man, they signed me. No. No,
we signed the deal where the rules of music changed
because of streaming, and we were in a deal that
was based off of physicals and so it was hard
to get out of it because we were right at
the we were getting to the end of physical sales.
(32:20):
I tell people because listen, if I was back working
at Party City, would I be saying what I'm about
to say now. No, I would be like the music
business fucked the music business, and you know I would
have negative things to say. And that's me being fully transparent.
But it worked out for me. I love the way
my story played out and everything that happened that wasn't
(32:42):
the best. It taught me so much that it made
me the man, the creator and the business man that
I am now. And I'm doing really really well. Man.
I if I told you anything else, I would be lying, like,
life is amazing right now?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
For sure that I'll leave you with one line question.
The songwriting world is very tough, it's very competitive. You
shared some of these issues that you went through yourself,
and there's always talk about songwriters' rights, and there are
a lot of younger writers or maybe even older writers
who are very vocal about the industry and how it
(33:17):
doesn't value the songwriter. Songwriters don't get paid the right amount.
They should get health insurance through XYZ, whatever it may be.
And a lot of songwriters have opinions on this, and
I'm curious where you land on that. How do you
think the industry could change in some ways to benefit
songwriters in the long run.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
And I say this, and I stand on this. I've
never seen anybody sing a high hat, right, So, because
I understand, I work with producers and I understand the
work that goes into production. Now, now I'm going to
give you kind of like a long story of how
it's broken down, but just so you could understand, I'm
going to land and then I'll land a plane. When
(33:56):
I write a song, I come in, I write the song.
I'm like chairs of the freaking Week. And Okay, I
didn't write that song. I just you know, but that's
the first song I came in mind. So bam, I
write the song, I leave the studio, I go home.
I never have to come back. The producer circuit. He's
(34:17):
at the studio for seven days working on the song,
getting the beat right, getting the vocals right, making sure
it's good before it goes to mix. Might be two
three weeks before he gets it right. In those two
three weeks, I've written a song every single day. He
hasn't been able to make beats, and he's been working
(34:40):
on this one song. So the producer deserves everything they get,
not what the producers are getting is not I am
not saying what I need to get. What I am
saying is if you're gonna call somebody out house knowing
(35:01):
that if we write a song today, it's not coming
out for six months, I'm not seeing money for nine
months after that. If you want people to be able
to continue to write make good songs, build your artists
and make music, because you need music to make money
in the music business, I think it should. There should
(35:23):
It's only fair that you compensate those people some wage
of protection so they can continue to do their job. Now,
do I have the answer and the wage and the number.
I don't I'm not gonna sit here and be like,
this is what we're supposed to get and what we deserve,
(35:44):
and I am one of the fortunate songwriters that get
paid and all of that. You know, you know, And
I'm gonna say this like a you know, I have
a great lawyer and I have a great manager who
are like you know that yell and scream and be like,
we don't give up what you're talking about. Tehran is
gonna and I've worked really hard. But I'm talking for
the people who don't have the massive amount of hits
(36:06):
or mass amount of success of someone like myself. I mean,
just the people who are like, yo, bro, I want
to be a songwriter and I just want to make
a living. If you're going to keep somebody in a
studio for three weeks, four weeks, there should be some
kind of daily rate for that person or something to
give them the incentive when they go back home to
(36:27):
their girlfriends and they babies. It's like, babe, you know what,
I wrote five songs today, but I came home with
two hundred bucks. I'm not saying that's the right number.
I'm not giving any actual numbers or anything. I'm just saying,
because here's what could happen. You're gonna lose a lot
(36:50):
of songwriters because their lack of the lack of ability
for survival, not because they don't love it. It's like, realistically,
I can't survive based on what's happening now, and you're
gonna be like, yo, man, it's so hard. And when
(37:12):
it's a little more song when it's like songwriters are
less and less and the songs aren't as good, then
you're gonna have to pay really good songwriters way more
money because they're gonna understand ha, y'all screwed yourself. And
I feel like before we get to a place where
everybody's kind of negotiating against everybody, I think there's a
(37:34):
fair place that we can land, but everybody involved has
to be ready and willing to have the fair conversation.
I don't have the answer as to what we should get.
I don't have the answer as to but I know
that at this current moment that the way that it is,
it's unfair. And by the way, the music business, not
(37:57):
the creatives, the music business, this the stream and services.
They all agree. If you're in a room with people,
they're like, yo, man, we understand what SaaS go through.
We you know, and we're like, yo, we need to
figure out something that helps everybody to walk away feeling like.
(38:21):
One of my favorite things is a good deal is
where both parties walk away upset. So I think streaming
service should be mad, labels should be mad, and creative
should be mad, and chances are that's a good fucking
deal and we need to get there all right.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
I think that's a great note to end on tarn
Thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
Thanks for listening. Please leave us a review at the
podcast platform of your choice, and please send feedback on
this podcast and other Variety titles at podcasts at Variety
dot com. And don't forget to tune in next week
for another episode of Strictly Business.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Hey, it's Rusty Gaston here. Thanks for sticking around. Before
we go, I want to give you another reminder to
check out our podcast, Thank a Songwriter, produced by Sony
Music Publishing, Nashville. It's your chance to hear the real
stories behind the songs you love, straight from the writers
who created them.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Now.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
New episodes drop regularly, so please listen wherever you get
your podcast
Hey there, it's Rusty Gaston, CEO of Sony Music Publishing, Nashville.
I want to tell you about our brand new podcast,
Thank a Songwriter. Each episode, I sit down with the
incredible songwriters behind the hits that you love. We have
honest conversation about creativity, collaboration, and their individual journeys to
(00:25):
their biggest hits. These conversations will make you hear music
in a whole new way. Tune in wherever you get
your podcast to Thank a Songwriter, because greatness deserves gratitude.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Welcome back to Strictly Business and He's weekly podcast featuring
conversations with media's brightest about the ins and outs of
the respective industries. I'm Stephen J. Horwitz, Senior music writer
with riety these guests is Tihran Thomas, the music industry
titan who has forged concurrent paths as both a songwriter
and artist since debuting in two thousand and eight as
(01:08):
one half of Our City alongside his brother Timothy. Tihran
has found success in the spotlight, with the group scoring
the top ten hit locked Away featuring Animal Van in
twenty fifteen, but it's been behind the scenes that Tihran
has maintained a high profile, becoming one of the music
industry's most dependable songwriters. Over the past two decades, Tihran
(01:29):
has had a hand in writing hits including Miley Cyrus's
We Can't Stop and Brianna's Man Down. More recently, collaborating
with artists including Justin Timberlake and ge Dragon. His latest
smash was with Rose and Bruno Mars's apt, a song
that recently earned three Grammy nominations for Song and Record
of the Year. Tihran is no stranger to the Grammys himself,
(01:51):
becoming the second person to win the award for Songwriter
of the Year Non Classical in twenty twenty four, and
in industry where getting in the room is a battle
unto itself, Tieran sheris his story on how you went
from an aspiring musician from the US Virgin Islands to
one of the biggest hip makers in the biz. Where
I want to start with you is talking about the
most recent news that has come into your worlds, which
(02:13):
is a a song by Rose and Bruno Mars just
got nominated for three Grammys. Congratulations, thank you, Yes.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
So I want to ask.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
You all about what it takes to put together a
song like this. From what I understand, there were eleven
songwriters on this one. And for those who are not
necessarily tuned into the songwriting business, how does eleven people
in a room?
Speaker 3 (02:37):
How did they write a song together?
Speaker 4 (02:40):
Well, just so you know, eleven people aren't ever in
a room. It's probably no more than five. But what
happens is producers are counted as songwriters, so you know,
you might you might have the guy that played the
melody line on the chorus with his keyboard, he's mentioned
(03:01):
as a writer. Everybody that's mentioned as a writer isn't
somebody who came up with a lyric or the melody
that you sing. It could be a part of production
as well. Then how you come up with eleven writers
is the original group was Amy, Allen, Omerfetti, Tyran, Thomas,
Circuit and Rosie. Then Rosie plays it for Bruno. Bruno
(03:27):
is like, yod, this is fire. Let you know, Bruno
brings in his his guys to be like, hey, let's
soup it up. So it yes, it's still Rosie, but
it fits a little bit more with Bruno, you know.
So he brought in his crew too, and that's how
that's how it became like this this cob collaborative gumbo
(03:49):
of creators, as I would say, you know, but it
turned out to be great. I think everybody's very happy
with the outcome of the song, and we're very proud
of it and super grateful for everybody who participated everything,
even even if it was a sentence or a word
or we don't care. It's like, you know what I mean,
three Grammys later and one of the biggest songs, and
(04:12):
you know, of my career, one of them. I'm super
super grateful.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
So the way that you're describing it is this sort
of like a typical process for songwriting where a song
can get passed around from various people.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
A lot of people could be chiming in different places.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Is there sort of a typical way to write a
song for you, No.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
That's not a typical way. What it is is when
you're dealing with superstars, you know, like a like a
Rosie from Black Pink or Bruno Mars, what happens is
everybody has a team, everybody has ideas, so it becomes
something like that. If it was Rosy song by herself,
it would have stopped, you know what I mean. But
(04:54):
it's like, if me and you wrote a song, and
let's say me and you write a song together, it's
it's me you make the beat, I write the song.
We own one hundred percent of the song. But now
we send the song to Lizzo, and now Lizzo is like, ooh,
I think we should add horns, that we shoulda da
da da, and we should change this. And I don't
like the second verse as much, but Lizzo brings in
(05:17):
her writing partner, and so it went from two to four.
You know what I'm saying, gotcha?
Speaker 2 (05:24):
And as I mentioned, this song is up for three
Grammys at the twenty twenty six Awards, which is amazing
but obviously not your first radio.
Speaker 3 (05:31):
When it comes to the Grammys, you.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Were the second person to ever win Songwriter of the
Year Nonclassical.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Yes, yes, second person, tell me first black person, but
second human.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Well those are two great accomplishments. So you've been an
artist for decades and you've been a songwriter for just
as long. What is something like that mean to you
at this point in your career?
Speaker 4 (05:57):
The Grammys, I mean, it just means so much because
the Grammys is an awards ceremony judged by our peers.
You know, it's not like how it's like other award
show wheres like oh the fans get to call in
and say it's their favorite and they love the artists,
and you know it's really the Grammys is more like
(06:19):
you know, fellow songwriters produce as musicians and people of music,
creative and non creative as well, sit down and really
have a conversation about like this is great, you know
what I mean? And I mean it just it just
means a lot. I mean, if anybody knows me, like
I said, I'm a kid from Same Thomas, Virgin Island.
(06:39):
Same Thomas is thirty two square miles I left in
two thousand and My first hit song was when I
Grow Up by the Pussycat Dolls and where the pussy
Cat Dolls won an EMPTV Award and thanked us on MTV.
And that was for me and my brother were at
(07:01):
home like, oh my god, what is We were so
excited and now years later, not only still being in
a music business, but still being relevant as a creative
and still getting the calls and still having polished and
(07:22):
seasoned artists called but brand new artists who are like yo, bro,
you don't understand, bro, I've always loved you. My dream
is to work with you. You're like, what, you know,
I'm still the kid from Saint Thomas in my mind,
you know, So yeah, it means the world to me,
you know, because I've wanted to do this since I
was nine years old, and I'm like, you know, I mean,
(07:45):
not everybody gets to live their nine year old dreams
as an adult.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Take me back to those early days. You you're talking
about the group that you have with your brother.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
The group is called our City Rock City for some
folks who are tuned in. And do you always have
the idea that you wanted to pursue being both an
artist and a songwriter as sort of like a separate
vocation or did that's come naturally with the territory.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Man, I didn't even know songwriting was a job. I
didn't know people, you know. I coming from Saint Thomas
and being in an amusement, I thought everybody wrote the songs.
I'm a father of six and my first kid, my
first kid. I was twenty one years old. I was
flat broke and working at Party City and just just
at you know, like at the end of my robe,
(08:32):
Like what am I going to do. And there's a
song that I wrote when I was in the seventh
grade during a hurricane. It's called the Rain and I
read me and my brother reformulated it, and Akon on
his second album, Convicted, used the song. Well, Akon paid
me and my brother five thousand dollars to get this
(08:53):
to sing the song. And again, I'm working at Party
City part time. And that's the most money I've ever
gotten in my life at the time at once, and
I was like, people that write songs get five thousand dollars.
And I at that time, I used to carry all
my songs in a backpack in which I still have.
It's in my closet and it's just a bunch of
(09:15):
loose paper. I don't even remember how those songs go.
I just have all the songs. And with all honesty,
I just wanted to feed my daughter, man, you know,
and I grew up. I come from you know, extreme poverty.
You know. Some people are like, oh, man, I'm like no,
like I'm you know, extreme poverty, and and I just
(09:37):
was like, man, I don't want my daughter to grow
up like that. And songwriting was like yo, as artists,
nobody cares, but this song that I wrote. Me and
my brother wrote it for us. It was our song,
and we played for Akon and he ended up, you know,
our best friend played it for Akon and he ended
up like, yeah, I love it, Da da da and
(09:59):
paid us five brand And I was just like, yeah,
let's do that songwriting thing more because people pay that,
you know. Let's do that to make money so I
can take care of my daughter, you know. And so
that's how I got into songwriting, like, you know, based
off of necessity, Like yo, bro, I gotta do something
(10:20):
to buy this formula and these dipers. So if it's songwriting, cool,
let's make it happen, you know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
I remember when you guys debuted. It was around the
same time that Lady Gaga debuted as well, and she
was in business with Akon as well, and she was
writing songs for other people too. She ended up going
the mainly artist route. She writes all of her own songs,
but she's not writing a lot of songs for other people.
But at the same time that you're pursuing our city,
(10:49):
you're also writing these massive hits for other people. So
how do you reconcile those two things and keep your focus.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
Well, it was a very difficult thing in our city,
you know, coming from the Virgin Islands, Like we were
trying to find ourself as artists and sound and sonic
and so we were at in a scope, We were
at Convict, Geffen, con Live, Geffen, through in a scope
and we had been working and I think we were
(11:19):
talented and we and we still are. We do everything.
But as an artist, when you're trying to sell something,
you can't you know what I mean, I can't sell
you a purple orange, blue, pink black shirt. You know,
It's like, yo, what what are we what scheme unless
it's tie died, what scheme are you going for? And
(11:41):
I think we found that years later when we when
we signed to Keimo Sabi and we did our song
Lopped Away with Adam Levine, and we was like, oh,
you know, because we had worked with Sean Kingson and
we had worked with Ayas, and we was like all
of these guys are like Caribbean pop crossover groups and
we were fighting it so much, like no, no, no,
(12:03):
no no. And once we got the opportunity, once we
got with Kimo Sabi, and we was like told, hey,
I mean you guys are good, but you guys are
really really good when you do that. That's when it
went that way. But writing, but right, we were so
(12:23):
successful as writers that when we had to hit with
Adam Lazeen, it's like, okay, we were writers, very successful,
Like we was already you know, financially stable and doing well,
our families were doing well. And as a songwriter, they
would fly fly us first class and put us in
a nice hotel. Well as an artist with one song,
(12:46):
they would be like, yeah, you guys are going to
the embassy suites and you guys got to figure out
how you're gonna get to the interview at five. And
we was like, yeah, but I'm already a big deal.
What are you talking about? And that was a very
hard thing to grasp, you know what I mean, And
it made it really difficult for a while. And once
(13:10):
we put out an album and went on tour, touring,
was just like this sucks like to me because I mean,
you know, I was married, I'm still I still you know,
me and my wife are celebrating sixteen years of marriage
on the twenty of December, thank you, and I'm like, yo,
I'm married, I got my kids and I'm like, I'm
missing a whole bunch of stuff, like out here saying
(13:31):
I want to go home, you know what I mean,
And so kind of like more focusing on that and
getting to that space and then just wanting to be
like known as a huge writer. I kind of went
into that place, was like, if I'm not good at okay,
so if I'm not gonna be gaga, I want to
(13:51):
be gaga of writing songs for people if that means
I'm like, how do I become the biggest person behind
the scenes. And so I kind of focused on that
up until like again the you know, twenty twenty, we're
twenty twenty five, yet twenty twenty four bramd Me's one
songwriter a year, and for me that was like, okay, guys,
(14:13):
I'm one of the biggest yep YEP. I did it.
I did what I said I was gonna do, and
just balancing it now, I feel like I got a
better balance of how I want to do it because
our city, we're about to put out a new record,
a new single March of twenty twenty six, and we're
super excited and there's no pressure with like making music
(14:35):
that we love and We're having a good time and
we've made great relationships, so we have cool features and
cool people to collaborate with. And I'm still writing like
songs and still calling all the cool rooms, and I'm
working on great things, and I have artists of my
own now, like it's just like fire. You know, I
love it.
Speaker 5 (15:00):
Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with more of
Variety's Strictly Business after this break.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Hey again. If you're loving this show, you'll want to
check out our brand new podcast, Thank a Songwriter, hosted
by me Rusty Gaston, CEO of Sony Music Publishing, Nashville,
where we shine a spotlight on the unsung heroes of
the music world, the songwriters. On each episode, I sit
(15:27):
down with some of the best songwriters in the business
to hear the stories behind their greatest hits and your
favorite songs. Thank a Songwriter is available now wherever you listen.
Speaker 5 (15:40):
And we're back with more of Variety's Strictly Business. Interview
with songwriter Tehran Thomas.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
As a songwriter, you it obviously became a more of
a priority following arcity tour, the massive success you have
with Adam Lavine's song and where are these opportunities coming
from for those who don't know, how do you get
in a room with a Rihanna or get a song
to someone like a Rihanna or Justin Bieber, both who
(16:07):
are artists you have written for.
Speaker 4 (16:08):
And the music business has changed so much so back
in the day, getting a song to an artist was
a bit easier because it was a lot more channels, right,
So I could send my song to Deaf Jam who
Rihanna was signed to, who had a relationship with Rihanna,
and they could send it to Rihanna if they loved it,
(16:30):
or they could play for her manager or you know,
played for Jay Z or there was a numerous amount
of people around the artists that'd be like, no, this
song is a hit. We have well now in this
new music business. And that's why I'm super grateful, because
you have to be requested, like not like you know,
(16:52):
selling a song to an artist is not like, oh,
I send it to a friend and gets it. It's
more of a request either by the artists or the
people working with the artists. Like let's go back to
apt omer Fetti called me and was like, Yo, I'm
working with Rosie of Black Pink and me and Amy.
We've been writing these songs and we've been in with
(17:12):
her bro O T. I needed TRN Special bro pull
up on us, you know, and I'm like, okay, cool,
you know. And that's how I got into the room
with Rosie. You know. When I met Rosie, Rosie, Rosie
didn't know me, and you know what I'm saying, I
knew Black Pink. So it's like, oh, okay, and we
just met each other and and we and we did
and we worked together. I think we did two days,
(17:37):
you know, And and out of those two days, APT
was created. Gotcha.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
So obviously you've had a very accomplished career. I've mentioned
songs for Rihanna like Man Down, and you wrote on
we Can't Stop for Miley Cyrus. These are massive hits.
And you talk about how the nature of the music
business has changed how you get those opportunities, And I'm
curious if you also have had an attitude shift, or
(18:04):
maybe a perception shift towards what a hit actually is,
especially in the streaming economy where we are in twenty
twenty five, How do you.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
Define the success of a song These days.
Speaker 4 (18:16):
It's numerous ways to define it. Back then, it was like, yo,
if you're in Billboard top ten, if you know are you?
Are you charting on radio? Which are all signs still
of success? You know what I'm saying. But I think
you know, Spotify top fifty Global, Spotify top fifty US
(18:36):
is now a chart that that means a lot, that
matters to a lot of creatives. Like let's see what's
going on. I would say, people knowing your song, you
know what I'm saying. Like TikTok is something that oh man, like, yo, bro,
we got we got eighty thousand videos of on our
(18:59):
song on TikTok gives it a sense of successful. But
as far as financially, if we're going to talk about
how we make money, like radio is still king, man,
radio is still king, and worldwide radio is still king.
So as a creative, even all the new writers and
producers and everybody coming up, I'm still like, yo, bro,
(19:21):
you want to make hit songs that can play on
the radio, that people could sing along and play everywhere.
You know, sinks are a really big deal in this
new music business. So commercials and movies. The thing about
commercials and movies, you know, if you have a crazy, dirty,
raunchy song, right now. If it's not big, if it's
(19:45):
not big at all, you're like really really fighting to
get people to want it, to play it somewhere in
a commercial, and it is now if it's huge, if
it's just like whoa, what a massive hit like I
Got a hole call and that scheck weest like, you know,
cause I just heard that in like a film, like
(20:06):
I want to say this today or yesterday, if I'm
not mistaken. But a song like that being so big,
it can get a lot of sinks. But before it's big,
people are like, no, you know what I'm saying. But
there's songs that are super sinkable that don't have to
be big. You know, it has a nostalgia to it.
(20:27):
It sounds like, you know a lot of the times
they're using like old school songs and a lot of things.
And imagine if you have an old school if you
have an old school new sound like Yo, this kind
of gives me a sixties, a forties, a fifties, a
seventies and eighties, but it's new and it's not dirty,
and oh man, instead of using Madonna, how about we
(20:49):
use this new artist that still fits the vibe, you know,
and those things. Those things matter. So again, making money,
it's a lot more ways to make money, but it's
harder to make money right.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Well, on the topic of a song like APT eleven
people who are credited as a songwriter, as we began
this discussion with when you go into the studio, are
you mindful of something like that the splits and and
do you prefer to have a smaller pool of people
to work with for this exact reason?
Speaker 4 (21:23):
Well, normally on normally I never go over five, Like
if I set up a session, I'm like, yo, bro,
no more than five people in a room at a time,
because you know, we can split it evenly. Everybody gets
twenty percent. Incredible, Listen, God is good. Everybody made money today. Family,
you know, everybody's families should be good if we write
(21:45):
APT you know. But again, on a rare occasion, sometimes
you write a song that's really great, You send it
to Bruno, you send it to God, somebody big, and
they're like, yo, I really love this song. But I'm
(22:06):
a writer, a producer. I'm a creative creative as well.
How do I how do I make the song a
little bit more me all, In the case of a duet,
balance it so it's more me and the artists, so
we're not going through any so it doesn't sound like
a copy paste or just like oh this, you know
what I'm saying, like making it more them. So you
(22:30):
could get an occasion where you like, again, we could
own one hundred percent of a song, but Maley Cyrus
gets it and says, I rewrote the second verse. Okay,
you know what I'm saying. And that happens, and you know,
I'm cool with that, you know, but sometimes on an
occasion like apt you you know, more than the amount
(22:52):
of people that you would have loved to have been
a part of the song get involved and you're like, yo, man,
hits are hard. Excuse me, hits are hard to come by,
and however we get them, I'm gonna take them.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
To that point, are you going into the studio with
artists thinking we gotta write ahead.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Every day every day in my life because I think
inten counts, you know, I think in ten counts. I
think in the process of making art, I think people
in making art for commerce, you have to think on
the biggest version of it. Now, if you don't want
to make art for commerce, yo, you could be a busker.
(23:30):
You can write your songs and play it in your car.
But if you're in the music business and you want
to be around, you want to be like Max Martin,
and you know you want to be around, you want
to be like Yo, I've been in the business for
thirty years and I'm still relevant and they still call me.
I think your intention every time you get in the
studio should be to write the biggest song of your
(23:52):
ability that I can't say, you know what I mean.
I can't say like, oh yo, this is going to
be a hit, okay, whatever, But I'm trying to write
the biggest song that I can write. Every day, every
chance I get in hopes that we get an APT
we get in about damn time we get a we
can't stop, we get a locked the way, you know,
(24:14):
And that's just that's just my goal. I can't speak
for everybody else.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Well, the songs that you just mentioned are obviously all
songs that you wrote on, but they're all very different stylistically.
You are chameleonic when it comes to songwriting across genre lions.
When you get into the studio with an artist or
you know that you're gonna be sending a demo of
something to an artist who's looking for tracks, Do you
(24:40):
feel like you have to cater to the style that
they already have or are you trying to push them
in new directions? How do you like to approach that
part of the songwriting process.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
I am a pusher, so I'm kind of like I'm
making okay if you're not in a room with me,
and I'm like, yo, man, I've been listening to Steven's
music for like five years. I'm a fan. I love
his songs as a film. You know what Stephen hasn't
done that I would like to hear personally this And
by the way, sometimes I nail it. Sometimes I'm like whoa, Yes,
(25:15):
sometimes I bomb. It's like that was terrible. But you
know it's like so, I mean that's when i'm writing
on my own, I'm trying to come up with ideas
because I'm just trying to do like this is where
I think you should be going. And when I'm with
the artist and I get more information, it's a lot
more helpful and I'm a lot better, you know, with
(25:36):
Rosie being in a room and because I was just
like I kind of like study music from a psycho
psychology sense, so I was like, Okay, outside of BTS,
all the K pop songs have some Korean in it. Okay,
(25:58):
all of the Black Pink songs except for Ice Screamed
with Selena Gomez had Korean in it, and their biggest
songs have Korean in it. So the whole time, I'm like, Yo,
I think the right thing for them to do, even
if it's an English song is do something Korean, even
(26:19):
if it's small, because I think that's the that's the catch,
that's the like, hey, everybody, this is I know it
sounds familiar, but it's different. And she was in the
studio playing the game and I just was like, oh, wow,
when did you guys make that song. That's a pretty
(26:40):
cool song. She was like, that's not a song. What
do you mean? What do you mean it's not a song. No,
it's a game. It's a it's a drinking game that
we play in Korea. And I'm like, so, let me
ask you this. Every single person in Korea knows what
that is. She's like yeah. I was like, yeah, that's
the song to do today, all right, and you know,
(27:04):
so we ended up getting it from there, and I
just even when we bro I'm not gonna and I'm
not always right. But when we did AP we Can't Stop,
I was like, this is the biggest song ever. I
just was like, this is a hit and apt I
was like, Yo, this is the Macarena. I know. I
know for a fact that this song is the Macharna,
(27:27):
you know. And again, I'm just glad to work with
people that trust me when I'm crazy, you know what
I mean, because I'm not. I'm not always right, and
but the time is when I'm right, Man, what a time.
So I'm just grateful that you know, omer Amy Rosie Circuit,
(27:49):
Like everybody involved were like, okay, I guess you know,
and we went with it and now we're here. So
I love it, man. I like what I love. I
love it when a plan comes together right together.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
I think one of the luxuries of being a creative
in any field, but particularly in music and especially in songwriting,
is the luxury of saying no.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
And I'm curious for.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Those who can't see tyran as pumping as fist, I'm
curious if you do have that luxury at this point
in your career, and how often are you exercising that luxury.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
I'm saying no all the time. I'm like, I'm in
Atlanta right now. Me and my family live in LA
but we're home. We're at our home in Atlanta right
now for Thanksgiving, and my family from the Virgin Islands
is here. My wife's family, you know, is here, and
we're having Thanksgiving and the kids are screaming and running
and and you know, I have a whole bunch of Yo, Toronto,
(28:54):
can you work this day and work that day? No O?
Can you do this? Can you do that? No? Now,
now I'm in a space in my career I honestly
want to work with I want to be a part
of like breaking new talent, you know what I mean,
I really do, you know. For for for one, it's
a new challenge for myself, Like, Yo, I wonder nobody
(29:16):
knows John and I'm gonna get in the studio with
John and We're gonna work and I'm gonna give him
songs and then whoa John is selling out arenas. Oh
my god. It's started with just ideas in the in
the back of the house, you know, And I'm super
interested in in in going forward with that, and then
with with like celebrities and superstars, you know. Again, obviously,
(29:40):
I know I'm in the music business. So you know,
if Sabrina Carpenter ever calls wink wink, you know what
I'm saying, I'll definitely come a run in. I just
want to go where I'm called work on things that
make me excited, you know, because I want to make
the music that I like, you know, and so far
the things that I've like has been pretty big. So
I think I have I think I got good taste,
(30:02):
and yeah, so I'm saying no to the things. When
I first started, I would say yes to everything because
I was like, I just want to make sure my
family is good. And now I'm kind of like, no,
I don't want to do that because I don't think
I can help. I think I want to help. So
if I'm like, no, I don't think I can, I
don't see myself making that the biggest so I'll I'll
(30:28):
just chill. That's how I feel.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
A lot of people don't realize, especially if you're a
fan in today's age and if you're like a stand
quote unquote, I see this a lot, that.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
The music business is a business.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
You just reference this, and a lot of people have
to learn that hard way, especially when they're coming into
the industry. I'm curious if there's a moment that stands
out to you where you did get hit in the
face with that lesson that this really is a business
and it's not always about the music.
Speaker 4 (30:56):
Yeah. I mean my first publishing deal, I was in
it for ten years and I couldn't get out of it,
and I and you know, and I and it really
was like it just shook me up to like whoa
you know. And I signed it and I agreed to it,
and I was so and I would look, I was
excited that they gave me the money, and I spent
the money and I did all the stuff, and I
(31:16):
was like, yo, bro, you have to protect yourself because
it's bigger than you. Now. It's about your wife and
your kids and your you know, and the people in
your family. So I think my first pub deal, and
I mentioned my first pub deal taught me every lesson. Bro.
My first pub deal was one point five million. I was.
I spent all the money, owe the IRS four hundred
(31:36):
and sixty eight thousand dollars back taxes. The IRS froze
my accounts. I hadn't you know. My wife was a
stay at home mom. I was like, how are we
going to pay our bills? I was scared, hit list.
You know what I'm saying. We were in the contract
for ten years and based on it because we signed
(31:57):
and by the way, it wasn't nobody did me dirty.
That's not what I'm saying, like, oh man, they signed me. No. No,
we signed the deal where the rules of music changed
because of streaming, and we were in a deal that
was based off of physicals and so it was hard
to get out of it because we were right at
the we were getting to the end of physical sales.
(32:20):
I tell people because listen, if I was back working
at Party City, would I be saying what I'm about
to say now. No, I would be like the music
business fucked the music business, and you know I would
have negative things to say. And that's me being fully transparent.
But it worked out for me. I love the way
my story played out and everything that happened that wasn't
(32:42):
the best. It taught me so much that it made
me the man, the creator and the business man that
I am now. And I'm doing really really well. Man.
I if I told you anything else, I would be lying, like,
life is amazing right now?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
For sure that I'll leave you with one line question.
The songwriting world is very tough, it's very competitive. You
shared some of these issues that you went through yourself,
and there's always talk about songwriters' rights, and there are
a lot of younger writers or maybe even older writers
who are very vocal about the industry and how it
(33:17):
doesn't value the songwriter. Songwriters don't get paid the right amount.
They should get health insurance through XYZ, whatever it may be.
And a lot of songwriters have opinions on this, and
I'm curious where you land on that. How do you
think the industry could change in some ways to benefit
songwriters in the long run.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
And I say this, and I stand on this. I've
never seen anybody sing a high hat, right, So, because
I understand, I work with producers and I understand the
work that goes into production. Now, now I'm going to
give you kind of like a long story of how
it's broken down, but just so you could understand, I'm
going to land and then I'll land a plane. When
(33:56):
I write a song, I come in, I write the song.
I'm like chairs of the freaking Week. And Okay, I
didn't write that song. I just you know, but that's
the first song I came in mind. So bam, I
write the song, I leave the studio, I go home.
I never have to come back. The producer circuit. He's
(34:17):
at the studio for seven days working on the song,
getting the beat right, getting the vocals right, making sure
it's good before it goes to mix. Might be two
three weeks before he gets it right. In those two
three weeks, I've written a song every single day. He
hasn't been able to make beats, and he's been working
(34:40):
on this one song. So the producer deserves everything they get,
not what the producers are getting is not I am
not saying what I need to get. What I am
saying is if you're gonna call somebody out house knowing
(35:01):
that if we write a song today, it's not coming
out for six months, I'm not seeing money for nine
months after that. If you want people to be able
to continue to write make good songs, build your artists
and make music, because you need music to make money
in the music business, I think it should. There should
(35:23):
It's only fair that you compensate those people some wage
of protection so they can continue to do their job. Now,
do I have the answer and the wage and the number.
I don't I'm not gonna sit here and be like,
this is what we're supposed to get and what we deserve,
(35:44):
and I am one of the fortunate songwriters that get
paid and all of that. You know, you know, And
I'm gonna say this like a you know, I have
a great lawyer and I have a great manager who
are like you know that yell and scream and be like,
we don't give up what you're talking about. Tehran is
gonna and I've worked really hard. But I'm talking for
the people who don't have the massive amount of hits
(36:06):
or mass amount of success of someone like myself. I mean,
just the people who are like, yo, bro, I want
to be a songwriter and I just want to make
a living. If you're going to keep somebody in a
studio for three weeks, four weeks, there should be some
kind of daily rate for that person or something to
give them the incentive when they go back home to
(36:27):
their girlfriends and they babies. It's like, babe, you know what,
I wrote five songs today, but I came home with
two hundred bucks. I'm not saying that's the right number.
I'm not giving any actual numbers or anything. I'm just saying,
because here's what could happen. You're gonna lose a lot
(36:50):
of songwriters because their lack of the lack of ability
for survival, not because they don't love it. It's like, realistically,
I can't survive based on what's happening now, and you're
gonna be like, yo, man, it's so hard. And when
(37:12):
it's a little more song when it's like songwriters are
less and less and the songs aren't as good, then
you're gonna have to pay really good songwriters way more
money because they're gonna understand ha, y'all screwed yourself. And
I feel like before we get to a place where
everybody's kind of negotiating against everybody, I think there's a
(37:34):
fair place that we can land, but everybody involved has
to be ready and willing to have the fair conversation.
I don't have the answer as to what we should get.
I don't have the answer as to but I know
that at this current moment that the way that it is,
it's unfair. And by the way, the music business, not
(37:57):
the creatives, the music business, this the stream and services.
They all agree. If you're in a room with people,
they're like, yo, man, we understand what SaaS go through.
We you know, and we're like, yo, we need to
figure out something that helps everybody to walk away feeling like.
(38:21):
One of my favorite things is a good deal is
where both parties walk away upset. So I think streaming
service should be mad, labels should be mad, and creative
should be mad, and chances are that's a good fucking
deal and we need to get there all right.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
I think that's a great note to end on tarn
Thank you so much.
Speaker 5 (38:46):
Thanks for listening. Please leave us a review at the
podcast platform of your choice, and please send feedback on
this podcast and other Variety titles at podcasts at Variety
dot com. And don't forget to tune in next week
for another episode of Strictly Business.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Hey, it's Rusty Gaston here. Thanks for sticking around. Before
we go, I want to give you another reminder to
check out our podcast, Thank a Songwriter, produced by Sony
Music Publishing, Nashville. It's your chance to hear the real
stories behind the songs you love, straight from the writers
who created them.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
Now.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
New episodes drop regularly, so please listen wherever you get
your podcast
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Burden
The Burden is a documentary series that takes listeners into the hidden places where justice is done (and undone). It dives deep into the lives of heroes and villains. And it focuses a spotlight on those who triumph even when the odds are against them. Season 5 - The Burden: Death & Deceit in Alliance On April Fools Day 1999, 26-year-old Yvonne Layne was found murdered in her Alliance, Ohio home. David Thorne, her ex-boyfriend and father of one of her children, was instantly a suspect. Another young man admitted to the murder, and David breathed a sigh of relief, until the confessed murderer fingered David; “He paid me to do it.” David was sentenced to life without parole. Two decades later, Pulitzer winner and podcast host, Maggie Freleng (Bone Valley Season 3: Graves County, Wrongful Conviction, Suave) launched a “live” investigation into David's conviction alongside Jason Baldwin (himself wrongfully convicted as a member of the West Memphis Three). Maggie had come to believe that the entire investigation of David was botched by the tiny local police department, or worse, covered up the real killer. Was Maggie correct? Was David’s claim of innocence credible? In Death and Deceit in Alliance, Maggie recounts the case that launched her career, and ultimately, “broke” her.” The results will shock the listener and reduce Maggie to tears and self-doubt. This is not your typical wrongful conviction story. In fact, it turns the genre on its head. It asks the question: What if our champions are foolish? Season 4 - The Burden: Get the Money and Run “Trying to murder my father, this was the thing that put me on the path.” That’s Joe Loya and that path was bank robbery. Bank, bank, bank, bank, bank. In season 4 of The Burden: Get the Money and Run, we hear from Joe who was once the most prolific bank robber in Southern California, and beyond. He used disguises, body doubles, proxies. He leaped over counters, grabbed the money and ran. Even as the FBI was closing in. It was a showdown between a daring bank robber, and a patient FBI agent. Joe was no ordinary bank robber. He was bright, articulate, charismatic, and driven by a dark rage that he summoned up at will. In seven episodes, Joe tells all: the what, the how… and the why. Including why he tried to murder his father. Season 3 - The Burden: Avenger Miriam Lewin is one of Argentina’s leading journalists today. At 19 years old, she was kidnapped off the streets of Buenos Aires for her political activism and thrown into a concentration camp. Thousands of her fellow inmates were executed, tossed alive from a cargo plane into the ocean. Miriam, along with a handful of others, will survive the camp. Then as a journalist, she will wage a decades long campaign to bring her tormentors to justice. Avenger is about one woman’s triumphant battle against unbelievable odds to survive torture, claim justice for the crimes done against her and others like her, and change the future of her country. Season 2 - The Burden: Empire on Blood Empire on Blood is set in the Bronx, NY, in the early 90s, when two young drug dealers ruled an intersection known as “The Corner on Blood.” The boss, Calvin Buari, lived large. He and a protege swore they would build an empire on blood. Then the relationship frayed and the protege accused Calvin of a double homicide which he claimed he didn’t do. But did he? Award-winning journalist Steve Fishman spent seven years to answer that question. This is the story of one man’s last chance to overturn his life sentence. He may prevail, but someone’s gotta pay. The Burden: Empire on Blood is the director’s cut of the true crime classic which reached #1 on the charts when it was first released half a dozen years ago. Season 1 - The Burden In the 1990s, Detective Louis N. Scarcella was legendary. In a city overrun by violent crime, he cracked the toughest cases and put away the worst criminals. “The Hulk” was his nickname. Then the story changed. Scarcella ran into a group of convicted murderers who all say they are innocent. They turned themselves into jailhouse-lawyers and in prison founded a lway firm. When they realized Scarcella helped put many of them away, they set their sights on taking him down. And with the help of a NY Times reporter they have a chance. For years, Scarcella insisted he did nothing wrong. But that’s all he’d say. Until we tracked Scarcella to a sauna in a Russian bathhouse, where he started to talk..and talk and talk. “The guilty have gone free,” he whispered. And then agreed to take us into the belly of the beast. Welcome to The Burden.