October 24, 2025 • 31 mins
Banijay CEO Marco Bassetti has a wide-ranging conversation on with Elsa Keslassy, Variety’s international editor, at the Mipcom content market in Cannes on Oct. 13. Bassetti details the Euro production group’s focus on profits over kudos, its experiments with digital creators and the pros and cons of working in Europe versus the U.S.
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. Our
guest is Marco Bissetti, CEO of Banajet. Banajet is one
of Europe's biggest production groups, known for huge global franchises
(00:31):
such as Master Chef and Peaky Blinders. This interview was
conducted live on stage on October thirteenth at the MIPCOM
Content Marketing can Bassetti was recognized with Variety in mipcom's
Vanguard Award for contributions to the global television industry. I
was joined on stage by my colleague Elsa Caslassi, Variety's
(00:52):
international editor, who was based in Paris. She did the
hard work on Variety's Vanguard profile of Bassetti, so it
was only right that she joined me on stage for
a great conversation. Bassetti is candid about the challenges and
opportunities ahead for Mana. Jay also knows the company inside
and out. That's a really great session about where media
(01:14):
is going our thanks to MAPCOM organizers for letting us
share this interview with strictly business listeners.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So the first question for you. You know, I describe
you also in the profile that I wrote as someone
who cares about profit margins. And it turns out Banija
has been profitable, and you recently posted your financial results
which showed that you had an ABITA up six percent,
which you know, as we know, the market conditions are
(01:42):
really tough right now. I wonder if you could explain
to us the decisions you've made strategically speaking to navigate
the market conditions.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
So, yes, we are quite profitable compare our industry. I
think that if I should say why, First of all
is because we are very disciplined.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
It in.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Controlling cash. We have adapt that we have to pay
back and we wants to leverage the company. We never
made Vanity stupid the acquisition we were. We know we
never overpaid company. And discipline for us, it's let's say along,
(02:29):
let's say not only for finance, also for the rest.
We never take a huge risk and sometimes let's say
we prefer others to take a risk and then maybe
to learn from them how it can do. I think
that second is scale and diversification. When we put had
(02:51):
them all, everybody was everybody. A lot of people will say,
well they became too big, you know, to be so big.
It's not is it advantgete Today I should say that
the other way around. Scale it's extremely important in order
let's say, to have to give access to our talent
(03:12):
and to ip to a full all our footprint, all
our let's say initiative, all our service and also the versification.
We know that the market is difficult since two years
the industry is pretty much flat. But we have a
fantastic platform. We have a fantastic group of manager creative,
(03:33):
so we need to use our platform. So for instance,
what we just did in Live that was just launched
two years ago and now we have the range of
two hundred and fifty million revenues, it's one of the
new business that we did that we launched a company
having pretty much the same business model using our creativity
(03:55):
and organic and un organic. Then I think that there
is also innovation because you have to continue to innovate
it your stuff, you know, otherwise you can leave with
our brand because there is the time that this brand
that will die. So far there are growing up, okay,
but like continue to do this, but it cannot this
(04:17):
the world without a new IP and innovation for us
is another important Let's say, way in order let's say
to create organic grow So madam, if you want, I
well mentioned some of our new show, but maybe we
can do later if you want, and this give us,
let's say, opportunity, let's say to have organic group. And
(04:39):
then there is also a kind of DNA of this
company that it was pretty much let's say, stayed the same.
So for instance, let's say thirty percent scripted, seventy percent unscripted,
very disciplined on this, we don't will never, let's say,
try to do something different in or let's say to
(05:00):
make it to win an oscar or something that cost
a lot, you know, so sometimes maybe you know, there
are other companies they prefer to have less return for
the shareholder and to win an oscar. It's not out case.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
You will have a company in a year and then
in two years time and in three years time. We've
all seen companies where the goal of you know, making noise,
making an impression is more important than the financial bottom line.
And those companies aren't here anymore. So that that's another
reason why we thought, you know, Banachet and even as
(05:38):
Elsa mentioned or you mentioned the end the mall Shine acquisition,
that was a big bet that could have so many
ways that could have been bad for the company. That
could you know, without you know, without the proper integration
and the management in the way that you've just discussed,
that could have been you know, if they had a
(06:00):
couple of bad years, that could have been really hard
after taking on that big of an acquisition, especially for
where Banajet was at that time.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Can you talk about how and.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
The mall Shine was that what made that integration work
for you? How did you scale that in the way
that you did.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
First of all, I always to remember then we put
them on and then we get COVID, so all the
integration was done basically on zoom. Oh my god. So
just add to the challenge is that at the very high,
very high. But I think first of all, we talk
a lot, we think a lot before to do this acquisition.
(06:41):
That was a big, big step for us. But if
I look now, it was the only way to survive
in this market, and we were a lot of concern because,
as you remember, the integration between and themal Shine and
Core was not so successful. So everybody was looking at a US,
(07:02):
how you could be successful. There are a few reasons
why we were successful. First of all, because Stephan is
coming from them or like me, I was in charge
of and themore for a few years, so I know
quite well the company. But we strongly believe that if
you want to svive in this market, you know, you
(07:22):
should have a very strong foot print. You should have
a lot of strong IP in order, let's say, not
just to be very frank with you, not to be
screwed by your client, and to have leverage it means
to retain AP. It means so that you are in
control of your RP and you can exploit it in
a different way. You RP not only in the channel
(07:45):
that you are to selling the IP. And that was
the decision, the rational of this acquisition. By the way,
this time, but j we did not have the footprint
that we have now. We don't have such a strong
disibution that and the mahas at this time we don't
have the scripted business, and we saw the descripted business
(08:06):
we stream will started growing. So for us was a
perfect match.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
There were synergies, as Jackpuel.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
And there were a lot of synergy okay, and all
the stigages that we made, we will invest in another
in another way, and so and then there was so
there was I should say, if I just to be
finished on this, we were. We had also the experience
of the audio that watched much more acquisition but integration
went very well. So we know pretty much how to manage.
(08:35):
Let's see which is the next.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
But also I think one of the things you mentioned
is that it gave you leverage when you negotiate with
other companies three merge et cetera. Talk to us about that,
you know, like this position with the scale that you
build through that acquisition.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Well, looking at now, okay, not a few years ago,
I think that it's more important because the retention of
rights for a company like us that they have to
invest and to go more in a direct to consumer business,
the retention on AP is crucial. And when you could
(09:15):
have when you could retain your AP, when you invest
in pilot, when you invest an EP, when you invest
in talent, when you have a strong catalog, or sometimes
you have a volume deal that you are fit because
sometimes because there are clients that in order to have
(09:35):
house shows, they give us a opportunity to have a
volume deal and there we have an opportunity to create
other AP. So it's not a kind of let's say
all the time discussion with them, but stuff, it's not easy.
But today we saw that our commission they are looking
(09:56):
at us more as a partner and just let's say
a guy that is spending a lot of their budget
and they have to buy this show. So they know
that pretty much we are in the same boat and
there are more and more way how let's say, to
share with them the IP, the retention, THEP and to
(10:18):
exploit the IP. It's different from client to client, it's
different from commission to commission, different from a tit from
commercial and public broadcaster. But I saw a future where
if we want reality renovated IP and to have to
go out from this momentum where everybody's extreaming or risk adverse,
(10:38):
we need, let's say, to be conscious that if we invest,
we need to eat any PSVP and have the opportunity
as a producer not only by New j but also
a TV or three media one or the other in
the to have a part of this IP.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
But speaking of your M and a strategy, do you
feel now that you achieved like the scale that you
want or are you still looking for opportunities.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Let's laborate a little bit. Yes, I think that we
have the scale in our business that we should have.
I don't think that geographic is speaking. We need to
have the other territory. Maybe we need, let's thing to
improve in some genera in charity that maybe we are
not so strong. It should be until twenty twenty two,
(11:27):
or be too twenty three. We did a lot of
after random or a lot of small acquisitionsgy you know that,
let's say two to feed our machine and to have
everything we need so we can give to our client
that to a commissioner, what they're asking for today, just
(11:48):
a pure many market buying small company. I don't think
that is anymore there because there is a significant difference compare,
which is let's say the demand the offer. Okay, if
you saw the multiple today where other companies are listed
and the money that we could pay. By the way,
(12:09):
we never buy a company because we want to buy
a bidda never, so we will never on this game.
We believe that this game was very dangerous. It has
to have strategic it has exactly or there is an ip,
or there is a talent or there is a need
to cover space that we are not covering. We never
buy for buying a bit da, can I ask you
(12:31):
just to finish if may I Now we want to
invest in another area in order to diversify our business.
That could be possible.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, will talk about that live entertainment afterwards.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Yes, but your philosophy, you know the strong feeling you
do not buy earnings. You do not buy a company
for its abetter. I mean that's a business fundamental because
you can't guarantee will be there next year and the
year after. Is that do you think is that even
more crucial in content right now?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Definitely? It's today. We saw that we are positioned in
the market like a kind of natural consolidato. There are
more and more talent that they like to come to
work with us, and we split with them the value
(13:28):
that we can create together. That it makes much more sense.
We saw every day small company but also medium company,
they cannot survive anymore on the market. So that's for
us and it's a real opportunity for increase our market share,
but also to create a new ap So instead of
spending money with their office, with their service and every
(13:50):
day they could spend their money in creativity. That's for
US an opportunity not only for US, so for some
of our competitor And I never saw so many talent
deal like last year. Talent they would like to have
a safe home where they can keep their own independence
(14:13):
and they can also to work just not just for
one or t TiO streamer on client, but they have
the capability to work with all of them. That's something
that is coming more and more. And on the other
side should say that also the globals teams they feel
comfortable to work with the kind of natural consulator like
us because they could have much more opportunity, a big
(14:34):
range of opportunity for talent and geographic plicking also to
the centralized some stuff hub on this kind of thing.
So I believe that this is an opportunity for international
producers like US and coming here.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
And in terms of English speaking markets, some other companies
I won't mention names, but some other companies in Europe
are very aggressive for the you know, in the UK
and the US, you have a different kind of approach
right towards English language markets. It's not like a big
priority for you for BANJ.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Well, let's say that the English speaking market, if you speaking,
content is a priority for all of us in this
business because just the CPM there as much oiland and
so much through m n as I mean no for
the men A, I think that yes, we would like
to grow in this in this space, okay, in in
(15:32):
in this area of the English speaking But it's a
bit complex also there because all the all the money
is coming from you, all the money, big money is
coming from US, okay, and US now is struggling to
produce stuff there, you know. And if you look Netflix
last year, I think that you produced then of the
(15:54):
uh the A twelve show outside of US. Same for
other networks. So there, let's say it's a good place,
let's say, to get commissioned, but maybe not the best
place to produce show because they're just too expensive because
unfortunately the cost of labor, or my point of view,
did the gap between the cost of labor and the
(16:17):
profitability of the show for the pure cost plus business
is getting more and more difficult compare to what the
market can accept now. But we are lucky because we
are we are in Australia, we are in UK, and
UK you know better than me that it became let's
say it was the first effort after LA and UK
(16:37):
is quite booming the business there and we're producing a
lot of show in UK from the US market, like
Building the Band also again as a book, and for
sure I forget a few others. So for US English
picking markets and ninety bits in Ante, ninety bits in Fox.
(16:58):
So for US, let's say the the English peaking markets,
it's extreme important. And what we decided to do one
years ago is to open the market so all our
producer of the company can go a pitch across this
market and we could see just the first the first
significant result. We are very lucky because we have also
(17:21):
a very strong collaboration between all our MD and all
our creative persons, because for the Australian people it can
have a fantastic idea, but they need to ask to
somebody news who could be the talent, which could be
the best let's say house for this show. And so
we are implementing and incentivized this collaboration and we saw
(17:42):
the first result and we will continue to do this.
But for us, the English speaking market is a priority.
You're right.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
I think the fact that you can take that approach
to have a good footprint you know your shows, you know,
from Master Chef to Black Mirror. I mean, they're all
over English language television. But the fact that you can
take that approach is very telling about the where the
marketplace is today in terms of in terms of shows
coming from all different formats, from different from different distributors,
(18:13):
and for the appetite in the US to acquire programs
from from all over it's it's it's the there is
so much more appetite to look at here's an interesting idea,
let's see how it can be adapted. Now, the adaptation
can be sometimes that can be a struggle, but there's
so much appetite.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Excuse me, how would.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
You say that, whether you know whether the US or
other big markets, how how are you dealing with the
need for original, fresh ideas, new ideas coming into the marketplace.
But we've seen it's been it's very hard to launch
new shows, particularly in the big, old fashioned kind of
(18:59):
competition reality shows, the big shows, the Big Brothers, the
Master Chefs, those kinds of big franchises that have been
the engines of many companies, including Banajet, including the Prior
and the Mall. We haven't seen as many of those
launching in the last say five years, ten years. What
do you think is going on with that? Is it
(19:20):
harder to launch an original property these days now because
the marketplace is so diffuse with so many options.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Let's start from the fact that my point of view,
creativity is not gone away. Creativity is still there and
there are fantastic creative and I think that there is
a lot of fantastic shows still on paper, not even impiled,
that should be produced. But you're right, we are we
are living in a momentum where there is a huge
(19:52):
risk adverse for new shows for few reasons my point
of view. One reason because that market is what it is,
so most people they saw the kind of the clan
market and the future there are not not enough competition
and u tity universe. Let's see what's going on in
(20:14):
the future. And then also even from us, but also
from the point of view of our clients, it's much
easier to go with master Cheffer survival. They don't know
there because they already know what could be. It's easy
to market in, it's easiy to produce, and at the
end of the day, you know you pretty much you
(20:36):
could predict how much they can make it, you know, so,
but do we need to crack this definitely because and
that's something that we really want to do, and it's
on top of our goal for the next season. Yesterday
we give almost two point five million for new pilots.
Let's say to the people that apply to one of
(20:57):
the hour, let's say compete issue among creative you know,
we would like to push as much as possible there
because we believe that there is a need, there is
an appetite for a new, big show, and for sure
there will be, you know, but with such a fragmented market,
with such a huge risk adverse, we should be more
(21:20):
bold also on outside. Let's say, in order to convince
our commission that there is a sense for them that
they need to fill discret not just let's say with
an old ip. Maybe we need let's say, to invest more,
Maybe we need to take for sure we need to
(21:41):
take more risk. But there is also an is show
to market in this show. Because today, to market in
a new show, it's extremely difficult. When you marketing a
show with a big talent or with the big IP,
it's much much easier. And that's all our area where
we have to work. But they can believe that there
is a world where there will not be anymore another
(22:04):
let's say Master Chef or Tentational and The Trader was
a good example of a show that it was launched
I think two years ago to three years ago, traveled
very well, but now happy if somebody even out on
our competition. They do this because it means that there
is an opportunity also for us to do the same.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
And everyone wants the new Traider, right they won't Oh,
I want to show like the Traider and what did
you tell them?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Yeah, but it means that there is a space for
this and there is an appetite for this. But in
one side we need to be to take more risk.
On the other side, we need to convince our client
to take. On the other side, they to put more risk.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
And the fact that streamer is also now more and
more interested in unscripted how is it changing kind of
the game for you?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Well, for us, it's a fantastic opportunity this because it's
you know, we grown up almost one hundred percent on
our market share with streamers from twenty two before. We
have some issue with them in order how to protect
ourip and how to protect our footprint because for us,
(23:13):
it makes a lot of sense that when we launch
a new show, it makes sense that it could be
producing another charity by us because we know how to produce,
we continue to circulate it our best practice. We know
where we where. When we make mistakes, we know how
to fix it. So it doesn't make sense that this
another company is producing this show. And today, for instance,
with Amazon, we are producing in eleven country lol. Very
(23:36):
successful almost everywhere, and they trust us that we are
able to adapt this show in each country where we
are producing has should be and I think that we
will continue to do this. We have the fifty, we
have other few shows and we just launched and builded
the band, and we hope that this is the first
(23:57):
big musical singing talent show for Fries that can be
produced also not just for the US market, but also
for other markets. You know better than me that for
what they say, your T T and scripted is not
let's say the content where they could have a new subscriber,
but they can retain new subscriber, you know, because the
big subscriber they could come with this quid game of
(24:20):
the crown or as of ginness of But I personally
believe then this is where the beginning of a new era.
And I think that there will be a big switch
into no scripted in the future. I don't know if
that's go versus let's say having more entertainment show or
(24:41):
other kind of Love is Blind this kind of show
or more documentary, but for sure they will go in
the direction because the cost of of the content is
the big cost of all this let's say new company.
And if they want, let's say, to have a more
bigger offer, they also to implement our no script as
(25:02):
late definitely and for us as an opportunity. Evan said
that we are quite big out in script We go
because we have the biggest studios in Europe and sometimes
you know, even we say thirty four, thirty seventy, but
still we have the biggest scripted studio in Europe, even
with our quarta internal quotes.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
Will you walk away from a deal if if the terms,
if you know, the terms aren't right? Long term, it
might be great to get to be paid right then,
but long term, if it's a runaway success you're you like,
will you walk away from a deal if the terms
aren't redid it.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Really which one?
Speaker 3 (25:41):
No? We did it and they are this is a
good question because of scale a small producer and because
you could not do it.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
You said, this is not the right deal for us,
and we are banishing and we're walking away.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
We did it, and we resit a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Then there are some big shows that just we go
for being producer and for ailing for sure, because there
are such a big show that in makes SSS they go,
they go worldwide, you know. But in some cases we
work away and that's it's possible because we are a
big company and we can afford to do this and
we can say sustain. And but today I think that
(26:18):
we have a very good term of trade with the
streamers and I think that we have we are there,
you know, as a group at the central group in
order to protect the IP that's going to create by
our local talent.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Speaking of streamers also more and more interested in doing movies,
and you predict right that there's going to be a
kind of a resurgence of movies. How are you, you know,
positioning Banije in that.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
I I'm very honest with you because I think that
there are most of the audiences our people we are
a little bit shy in movies so far, Okay, maybe
we need to be a little bit more aggressive because
I think that the movie businesses change. Before we decide
and purpose not to go into the business of guiatical
(27:05):
movie because we don't take risks. The beauty a little
bit of our business that is costplus, so it doesn't
make sense to take a huge risk that can just
so add the value that the other guy they are
creating in other genera, so we prefer not to do. Now,
the movie business with all this platform change a lot,
(27:27):
so I think that we can be a little bit
more aggressive on this space. I think that's so far
we are producing I think fourteen fifteen movie per year.
We can do much more also because now they are
spending that the budget for this movie are significant. So
let's see.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
And you talked earlier about you know, the new trends,
et cetera, you know, going into live entertainment. One of
the things that people are talking about here at mipcom
is a Creator Economy. How are you just announced earlier
today that she acquired Creator Economy Company.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Yes, not today today was an ass Today.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Was announced exactly tell us about this new venture.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Well, it's not the only one. The one that we
did with the David the team. It's called Brinkle in Netherlands.
It's a perfect example where we want to stand so
community Creator that they needed their rap, they have their
(28:37):
own AP, they do podcasts and to do as a
live event. So it's a perfect platform for what we
are doing now. And we're looking more and more and
when I will speaking, we talked about m and A.
This is the kind of stuff that we need to
have more, not just let's say to have this in Netherland,
but just to learn from them what we can replicated
this model in another country. That's the way that we
(28:58):
are looking this world. Yes, the Creator words it is
an important, it's extremely important for us. Now I can
say that I believe for what we can see that
the Creator they need us a little bit because our
capacity to produce shows, especially long form is pretty much
(29:22):
in outside. They have a huge community that we need
to have. So the combination of the two could be
could be good. Let's see what's going on. We are
going to launch ten new pilots with Creator coming from
(29:42):
our dormant type with Creator in two country French and UK.
In order to understand how that's worth. It's a test,
let's see what's going on from there. But for us,
in an opportunity to test, to launch and maybe to
scale up in the future, some of let's say, how
dormant type because we have we have a huge dormant
(30:03):
catalog of our format, or maybe to launch a new show.
For sure, the business a clear business model, to be
very honest, is not yet there. Okay, so the only
one that does making a lot of money is the creator, okay.
For us, it's it's quite complicated because our cost of
production is different for what their cost of production. So
(30:26):
to meet and the balance and to find the balance
where it could be good for a win win for
both is not yet there. But we try to test.
We will continue to test. For us, it's important in
order to reach a different audience. It's important to test,
and it could be important also in order to monetize
(30:49):
for YouTube or other platform or for what we can
create if you are able to create a brand. And
the second that I believe, the second thing that but
create or that for us is getting more and more important,
is that if you want, let's say, to transform an
APN in brand, you need to have you need to
(31:10):
have a different audience. Community, fandom based in social media,
and that's the way where you can really marketing and
monetize your brand. That was not the case until a
few years ago.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review
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of Strictly Business.
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Littleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. Our
guest is Marco Bissetti, CEO of Banajet. Banajet is one
of Europe's biggest production groups, known for huge global franchises
(00:31):
such as Master Chef and Peaky Blinders. This interview was
conducted live on stage on October thirteenth at the MIPCOM
Content Marketing can Bassetti was recognized with Variety in mipcom's
Vanguard Award for contributions to the global television industry. I
was joined on stage by my colleague Elsa Caslassi, Variety's
(00:52):
international editor, who was based in Paris. She did the
hard work on Variety's Vanguard profile of Bassetti, so it
was only right that she joined me on stage for
a great conversation. Bassetti is candid about the challenges and
opportunities ahead for Mana. Jay also knows the company inside
and out. That's a really great session about where media
(01:14):
is going our thanks to MAPCOM organizers for letting us
share this interview with strictly business listeners.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
So the first question for you. You know, I describe
you also in the profile that I wrote as someone
who cares about profit margins. And it turns out Banija
has been profitable, and you recently posted your financial results
which showed that you had an ABITA up six percent,
which you know, as we know, the market conditions are
(01:42):
really tough right now. I wonder if you could explain
to us the decisions you've made strategically speaking to navigate
the market conditions.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
So, yes, we are quite profitable compare our industry. I
think that if I should say why, First of all
is because we are very disciplined.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
It in.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Controlling cash. We have adapt that we have to pay
back and we wants to leverage the company. We never
made Vanity stupid the acquisition we were. We know we
never overpaid company. And discipline for us, it's let's say along,
(02:29):
let's say not only for finance, also for the rest.
We never take a huge risk and sometimes let's say
we prefer others to take a risk and then maybe
to learn from them how it can do. I think
that second is scale and diversification. When we put had
(02:51):
them all, everybody was everybody. A lot of people will say,
well they became too big, you know, to be so big.
It's not is it advantgete Today I should say that
the other way around. Scale it's extremely important in order
let's say, to have to give access to our talent
(03:12):
and to ip to a full all our footprint, all
our let's say initiative, all our service and also the versification.
We know that the market is difficult since two years
the industry is pretty much flat. But we have a
fantastic platform. We have a fantastic group of manager creative,
(03:33):
so we need to use our platform. So for instance,
what we just did in Live that was just launched
two years ago and now we have the range of
two hundred and fifty million revenues, it's one of the
new business that we did that we launched a company
having pretty much the same business model using our creativity
(03:55):
and organic and un organic. Then I think that there
is also innovation because you have to continue to innovate
it your stuff, you know, otherwise you can leave with
our brand because there is the time that this brand
that will die. So far there are growing up, okay,
but like continue to do this, but it cannot this
(04:17):
the world without a new IP and innovation for us
is another important Let's say, way in order let's say
to create organic grow So madam, if you want, I
well mentioned some of our new show, but maybe we
can do later if you want, and this give us,
let's say, opportunity, let's say to have organic group. And
(04:39):
then there is also a kind of DNA of this
company that it was pretty much let's say, stayed the same.
So for instance, let's say thirty percent scripted, seventy percent unscripted,
very disciplined on this, we don't will never, let's say,
try to do something different in or let's say to
(05:00):
make it to win an oscar or something that cost
a lot, you know, so sometimes maybe you know, there
are other companies they prefer to have less return for
the shareholder and to win an oscar. It's not out case.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
You will have a company in a year and then
in two years time and in three years time. We've
all seen companies where the goal of you know, making noise,
making an impression is more important than the financial bottom line.
And those companies aren't here anymore. So that that's another
reason why we thought, you know, Banachet and even as
(05:38):
Elsa mentioned or you mentioned the end the mall Shine acquisition,
that was a big bet that could have so many
ways that could have been bad for the company. That
could you know, without you know, without the proper integration
and the management in the way that you've just discussed,
that could have been you know, if they had a
(06:00):
couple of bad years, that could have been really hard
after taking on that big of an acquisition, especially for
where Banajet was at that time.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Can you talk about how and.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
The mall Shine was that what made that integration work
for you? How did you scale that in the way
that you did.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
First of all, I always to remember then we put
them on and then we get COVID, so all the
integration was done basically on zoom. Oh my god. So
just add to the challenge is that at the very high,
very high. But I think first of all, we talk
a lot, we think a lot before to do this acquisition.
(06:41):
That was a big, big step for us. But if
I look now, it was the only way to survive
in this market, and we were a lot of concern because,
as you remember, the integration between and themal Shine and
Core was not so successful. So everybody was looking at a US,
(07:02):
how you could be successful. There are a few reasons
why we were successful. First of all, because Stephan is
coming from them or like me, I was in charge
of and themore for a few years, so I know
quite well the company. But we strongly believe that if
you want to svive in this market, you know, you
(07:22):
should have a very strong foot print. You should have
a lot of strong IP in order, let's say, not
just to be very frank with you, not to be
screwed by your client, and to have leverage it means
to retain AP. It means so that you are in
control of your RP and you can exploit it in
a different way. You RP not only in the channel
(07:45):
that you are to selling the IP. And that was
the decision, the rational of this acquisition. By the way,
this time, but j we did not have the footprint
that we have now. We don't have such a strong
disibution that and the mahas at this time we don't
have the scripted business, and we saw the descripted business
(08:06):
we stream will started growing. So for us was a
perfect match.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
There were synergies, as Jackpuel.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
And there were a lot of synergy okay, and all
the stigages that we made, we will invest in another
in another way, and so and then there was so
there was I should say, if I just to be
finished on this, we were. We had also the experience
of the audio that watched much more acquisition but integration
went very well. So we know pretty much how to manage.
(08:35):
Let's see which is the next.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
But also I think one of the things you mentioned
is that it gave you leverage when you negotiate with
other companies three merge et cetera. Talk to us about that,
you know, like this position with the scale that you
build through that acquisition.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Well, looking at now, okay, not a few years ago,
I think that it's more important because the retention of
rights for a company like us that they have to
invest and to go more in a direct to consumer business,
the retention on AP is crucial. And when you could
(09:15):
have when you could retain your AP, when you invest
in pilot, when you invest an EP, when you invest
in talent, when you have a strong catalog, or sometimes
you have a volume deal that you are fit because
sometimes because there are clients that in order to have
(09:35):
house shows, they give us a opportunity to have a
volume deal and there we have an opportunity to create
other AP. So it's not a kind of let's say
all the time discussion with them, but stuff, it's not easy.
But today we saw that our commission they are looking
(09:56):
at us more as a partner and just let's say
a guy that is spending a lot of their budget
and they have to buy this show. So they know
that pretty much we are in the same boat and
there are more and more way how let's say, to
share with them the IP, the retention, THEP and to
(10:18):
exploit the IP. It's different from client to client, it's
different from commission to commission, different from a tit from
commercial and public broadcaster. But I saw a future where
if we want reality renovated IP and to have to
go out from this momentum where everybody's extreaming or risk adverse,
(10:38):
we need, let's say, to be conscious that if we invest,
we need to eat any PSVP and have the opportunity
as a producer not only by New j but also
a TV or three media one or the other in
the to have a part of this IP.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
But speaking of your M and a strategy, do you
feel now that you achieved like the scale that you
want or are you still looking for opportunities.
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Let's laborate a little bit. Yes, I think that we
have the scale in our business that we should have.
I don't think that geographic is speaking. We need to
have the other territory. Maybe we need, let's thing to
improve in some genera in charity that maybe we are
not so strong. It should be until twenty twenty two,
(11:27):
or be too twenty three. We did a lot of
after random or a lot of small acquisitionsgy you know that,
let's say two to feed our machine and to have
everything we need so we can give to our client
that to a commissioner, what they're asking for today, just
(11:48):
a pure many market buying small company. I don't think
that is anymore there because there is a significant difference compare,
which is let's say the demand the offer. Okay, if
you saw the multiple today where other companies are listed
and the money that we could pay. By the way,
(12:09):
we never buy a company because we want to buy
a bidda never, so we will never on this game.
We believe that this game was very dangerous. It has
to have strategic it has exactly or there is an ip,
or there is a talent or there is a need
to cover space that we are not covering. We never
buy for buying a bit da, can I ask you
(12:31):
just to finish if may I Now we want to
invest in another area in order to diversify our business.
That could be possible.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, will talk about that live entertainment afterwards.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Yes, but your philosophy, you know the strong feeling you
do not buy earnings. You do not buy a company
for its abetter. I mean that's a business fundamental because
you can't guarantee will be there next year and the
year after. Is that do you think is that even
more crucial in content right now?
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Definitely? It's today. We saw that we are positioned in
the market like a kind of natural consolidato. There are
more and more talent that they like to come to
work with us, and we split with them the value
(13:28):
that we can create together. That it makes much more sense.
We saw every day small company but also medium company,
they cannot survive anymore on the market. So that's for
us and it's a real opportunity for increase our market share,
but also to create a new ap So instead of
spending money with their office, with their service and every
(13:50):
day they could spend their money in creativity. That's for
US an opportunity not only for US, so for some
of our competitor And I never saw so many talent
deal like last year. Talent they would like to have
a safe home where they can keep their own independence
(14:13):
and they can also to work just not just for
one or t TiO streamer on client, but they have
the capability to work with all of them. That's something
that is coming more and more. And on the other
side should say that also the globals teams they feel
comfortable to work with the kind of natural consulator like
us because they could have much more opportunity, a big
(14:34):
range of opportunity for talent and geographic plicking also to
the centralized some stuff hub on this kind of thing.
So I believe that this is an opportunity for international
producers like US and coming here.
Speaker 2 (14:51):
And in terms of English speaking markets, some other companies
I won't mention names, but some other companies in Europe
are very aggressive for the you know, in the UK
and the US, you have a different kind of approach
right towards English language markets. It's not like a big
priority for you for BANJ.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Well, let's say that the English speaking market, if you speaking,
content is a priority for all of us in this
business because just the CPM there as much oiland and
so much through m n as I mean no for
the men A, I think that yes, we would like
to grow in this in this space, okay, in in
(15:32):
in this area of the English speaking But it's a
bit complex also there because all the all the money
is coming from you, all the money, big money is
coming from US, okay, and US now is struggling to
produce stuff there, you know. And if you look Netflix
last year, I think that you produced then of the
(15:54):
uh the A twelve show outside of US. Same for
other networks. So there, let's say it's a good place,
let's say, to get commissioned, but maybe not the best
place to produce show because they're just too expensive because
unfortunately the cost of labor, or my point of view,
did the gap between the cost of labor and the
(16:17):
profitability of the show for the pure cost plus business
is getting more and more difficult compare to what the
market can accept now. But we are lucky because we
are we are in Australia, we are in UK, and
UK you know better than me that it became let's
say it was the first effort after LA and UK
(16:37):
is quite booming the business there and we're producing a
lot of show in UK from the US market, like
Building the Band also again as a book, and for
sure I forget a few others. So for US English
picking markets and ninety bits in Ante, ninety bits in Fox.
(16:58):
So for US, let's say the the English peaking markets,
it's extreme important. And what we decided to do one
years ago is to open the market so all our
producer of the company can go a pitch across this
market and we could see just the first the first
significant result. We are very lucky because we have also
(17:21):
a very strong collaboration between all our MD and all
our creative persons, because for the Australian people it can
have a fantastic idea, but they need to ask to
somebody news who could be the talent, which could be
the best let's say house for this show. And so
we are implementing and incentivized this collaboration and we saw
(17:42):
the first result and we will continue to do this.
But for us, the English speaking market is a priority.
You're right.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
I think the fact that you can take that approach
to have a good footprint you know your shows, you know,
from Master Chef to Black Mirror. I mean, they're all
over English language television. But the fact that you can
take that approach is very telling about the where the
marketplace is today in terms of in terms of shows
coming from all different formats, from different from different distributors,
(18:13):
and for the appetite in the US to acquire programs
from from all over it's it's it's the there is
so much more appetite to look at here's an interesting idea,
let's see how it can be adapted. Now, the adaptation
can be sometimes that can be a struggle, but there's
so much appetite.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Excuse me, how would.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
You say that, whether you know whether the US or
other big markets, how how are you dealing with the
need for original, fresh ideas, new ideas coming into the marketplace.
But we've seen it's been it's very hard to launch
new shows, particularly in the big, old fashioned kind of
(18:59):
competition reality shows, the big shows, the Big Brothers, the
Master Chefs, those kinds of big franchises that have been
the engines of many companies, including Banajet, including the Prior
and the Mall. We haven't seen as many of those
launching in the last say five years, ten years. What
do you think is going on with that? Is it
(19:20):
harder to launch an original property these days now because
the marketplace is so diffuse with so many options.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
Let's start from the fact that my point of view,
creativity is not gone away. Creativity is still there and
there are fantastic creative and I think that there is
a lot of fantastic shows still on paper, not even impiled,
that should be produced. But you're right, we are we
are living in a momentum where there is a huge
(19:52):
risk adverse for new shows for few reasons my point
of view. One reason because that market is what it is,
so most people they saw the kind of the clan
market and the future there are not not enough competition
and u tity universe. Let's see what's going on in
(20:14):
the future. And then also even from us, but also
from the point of view of our clients, it's much
easier to go with master Cheffer survival. They don't know
there because they already know what could be. It's easy
to market in, it's easiy to produce, and at the
end of the day, you know you pretty much you
(20:36):
could predict how much they can make it, you know, so,
but do we need to crack this definitely because and
that's something that we really want to do, and it's
on top of our goal for the next season. Yesterday
we give almost two point five million for new pilots.
Let's say to the people that apply to one of
(20:57):
the hour, let's say compete issue among creative you know,
we would like to push as much as possible there
because we believe that there is a need, there is
an appetite for a new, big show, and for sure
there will be, you know, but with such a fragmented market,
with such a huge risk adverse, we should be more
(21:20):
bold also on outside. Let's say, in order to convince
our commission that there is a sense for them that
they need to fill discret not just let's say with
an old ip. Maybe we need let's say, to invest more,
Maybe we need to take for sure we need to
(21:41):
take more risk. But there is also an is show
to market in this show. Because today, to market in
a new show, it's extremely difficult. When you marketing a
show with a big talent or with the big IP,
it's much much easier. And that's all our area where
we have to work. But they can believe that there
is a world where there will not be anymore another
(22:04):
let's say Master Chef or Tentational and The Trader was
a good example of a show that it was launched
I think two years ago to three years ago, traveled
very well, but now happy if somebody even out on
our competition. They do this because it means that there
is an opportunity also for us to do the same.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
And everyone wants the new Traider, right they won't Oh,
I want to show like the Traider and what did
you tell them?
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Yeah, but it means that there is a space for
this and there is an appetite for this. But in
one side we need to be to take more risk.
On the other side, we need to convince our client
to take. On the other side, they to put more risk.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
And the fact that streamer is also now more and
more interested in unscripted how is it changing kind of
the game for you?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Well, for us, it's a fantastic opportunity this because it's
you know, we grown up almost one hundred percent on
our market share with streamers from twenty two before. We
have some issue with them in order how to protect
ourip and how to protect our footprint because for us,
(23:13):
it makes a lot of sense that when we launch
a new show, it makes sense that it could be
producing another charity by us because we know how to produce,
we continue to circulate it our best practice. We know
where we where. When we make mistakes, we know how
to fix it. So it doesn't make sense that this
another company is producing this show. And today, for instance,
with Amazon, we are producing in eleven country lol. Very
(23:36):
successful almost everywhere, and they trust us that we are
able to adapt this show in each country where we
are producing has should be and I think that we
will continue to do this. We have the fifty, we
have other few shows and we just launched and builded
the band, and we hope that this is the first
(23:57):
big musical singing talent show for Fries that can be
produced also not just for the US market, but also
for other markets. You know better than me that for
what they say, your T T and scripted is not
let's say the content where they could have a new subscriber,
but they can retain new subscriber, you know, because the
big subscriber they could come with this quid game of
(24:20):
the crown or as of ginness of But I personally
believe then this is where the beginning of a new era.
And I think that there will be a big switch
into no scripted in the future. I don't know if
that's go versus let's say having more entertainment show or
(24:41):
other kind of Love is Blind this kind of show
or more documentary, but for sure they will go in
the direction because the cost of of the content is
the big cost of all this let's say new company.
And if they want, let's say, to have a more
bigger offer, they also to implement our no script as
(25:02):
late definitely and for us as an opportunity. Evan said
that we are quite big out in script We go
because we have the biggest studios in Europe and sometimes
you know, even we say thirty four, thirty seventy, but
still we have the biggest scripted studio in Europe, even
with our quarta internal quotes.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
Will you walk away from a deal if if the terms,
if you know, the terms aren't right? Long term, it
might be great to get to be paid right then,
but long term, if it's a runaway success you're you like,
will you walk away from a deal if the terms
aren't redid it.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Really which one?
Speaker 3 (25:41):
No? We did it and they are this is a
good question because of scale a small producer and because
you could not do it.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
You said, this is not the right deal for us,
and we are banishing and we're walking away.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
We did it, and we resit a lot.
Speaker 1 (25:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Then there are some big shows that just we go
for being producer and for ailing for sure, because there
are such a big show that in makes SSS they go,
they go worldwide, you know. But in some cases we
work away and that's it's possible because we are a
big company and we can afford to do this and
we can say sustain. And but today I think that
(26:18):
we have a very good term of trade with the
streamers and I think that we have we are there,
you know, as a group at the central group in
order to protect the IP that's going to create by
our local talent.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Speaking of streamers also more and more interested in doing movies,
and you predict right that there's going to be a
kind of a resurgence of movies. How are you, you know,
positioning Banije in that.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
I I'm very honest with you because I think that
there are most of the audiences our people we are
a little bit shy in movies so far, Okay, maybe
we need to be a little bit more aggressive because
I think that the movie businesses change. Before we decide
and purpose not to go into the business of guiatical
(27:05):
movie because we don't take risks. The beauty a little
bit of our business that is costplus, so it doesn't
make sense to take a huge risk that can just
so add the value that the other guy they are
creating in other genera, so we prefer not to do. Now,
the movie business with all this platform change a lot,
(27:27):
so I think that we can be a little bit
more aggressive on this space. I think that's so far
we are producing I think fourteen fifteen movie per year.
We can do much more also because now they are
spending that the budget for this movie are significant. So
let's see.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
And you talked earlier about you know, the new trends,
et cetera, you know, going into live entertainment. One of
the things that people are talking about here at mipcom
is a Creator Economy. How are you just announced earlier
today that she acquired Creator Economy Company.
Speaker 3 (28:06):
Yes, not today today was an ass Today.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Was announced exactly tell us about this new venture.
Speaker 3 (28:15):
Well, it's not the only one. The one that we
did with the David the team. It's called Brinkle in Netherlands.
It's a perfect example where we want to stand so
community Creator that they needed their rap, they have their
(28:37):
own AP, they do podcasts and to do as a
live event. So it's a perfect platform for what we
are doing now. And we're looking more and more and
when I will speaking, we talked about m and A.
This is the kind of stuff that we need to
have more, not just let's say to have this in Netherland,
but just to learn from them what we can replicated
this model in another country. That's the way that we
(28:58):
are looking this world. Yes, the Creator words it is
an important, it's extremely important for us. Now I can
say that I believe for what we can see that
the Creator they need us a little bit because our
capacity to produce shows, especially long form is pretty much
(29:22):
in outside. They have a huge community that we need
to have. So the combination of the two could be
could be good. Let's see what's going on. We are
going to launch ten new pilots with Creator coming from
(29:42):
our dormant type with Creator in two country French and UK.
In order to understand how that's worth. It's a test,
let's see what's going on from there. But for us,
in an opportunity to test, to launch and maybe to
scale up in the future, some of let's say, how
dormant type because we have we have a huge dormant
(30:03):
catalog of our format, or maybe to launch a new show.
For sure, the business a clear business model, to be
very honest, is not yet there. Okay, so the only
one that does making a lot of money is the creator, okay.
For us, it's it's quite complicated because our cost of
production is different for what their cost of production. So
(30:26):
to meet and the balance and to find the balance
where it could be good for a win win for
both is not yet there. But we try to test.
We will continue to test. For us, it's important in
order to reach a different audience. It's important to test,
and it could be important also in order to monetize
(30:49):
for YouTube or other platform or for what we can
create if you are able to create a brand. And
the second that I believe, the second thing that but
create or that for us is getting more and more important,
is that if you want, let's say, to transform an
APN in brand, you need to have you need to
(31:10):
have a different audience. Community, fandom based in social media,
and that's the way where you can really marketing and
monetize your brand. That was not the case until a
few years ago.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review
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