December 4, 2024 • 31 mins
Nominated for producer of the year at the Grammys, Daniel Nigro has become one of the top writer-producers in the pop thanks to his collaborations with Chappell Roan and Olivia Rodrigo, who became superstars on his watch. He talks about why he thinks of himself more of a band member with these artists than a traditional producer.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the
podcast in which we speak with some of the brightest
minds working in the media business today. I'm Chris Wilman,
chief music critic and senior writer with Variety. Today's guest
is Daniel Nigro, who's nominated for Producer of the Year
at the upcoming twenty twenty five Grammy Awards. That title,
He's also been celebrated as Producer of the Year at
(01:03):
Variety's annual Hitmaker's event. Dan's Producer of the Year nomination
the Grammys is based largely on this past year's breakout
success by chapel Rod. He produced all of and co
wrote most of her debut album, The Rise and Fall
of the Midwest Princess. On the basis of that top
ten recording, Roan is a leading favorite to win the
Best New Artist Grammy, and she and Nigro nominated together
(01:25):
in categories including Album, Record and Song of the Year.
The success falls on the heels of a similar collaboration
with Olivia Rodrigo on her first two albums, making him
the creative partner with the tupop artists who have arguably
had the two most meteoric rises since the turn of
the decade. This wasn't his career past starting out, though
he spent pretty much the duration of two thousands as
(01:47):
a member of a rock band called As Tall as Lions.
From there, the path he took to where he is
involved being a jingle writer, which is evidence of his
facility for unforgettable pop books before he started hooking up
with artists including Conin Gray, Kylie Minogue, Caroline Paulchek, and
Sky Ferrera prior to working close to full time with
rod and Rodrigo. We'll talk with Nigro about that journey.
(02:10):
What about how he sees the role of the producer
writer in today's pop music. You'll hear all about this
at our conversation we strictly Business comes back after the break.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
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Speaker 2 (03:04):
We're back with the Idael Nigro, the producer and writer
who has been the close collaborator of Olivia Rodrigo and
Chavel Road in their breakout successes. You were nominated for
Producer of the Year at the Grammys. He won Songwriter
of the Year at the ASHCAP Awards, And it's interesting
to me that at the Grammys for their fairly New
Songwriter to your category, you have to be a non
producing and songwriter to be eligible.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
But it really feels.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Like we're exiting the era in which those roles are
usually seeing as separate. So I'm curious it's looking back
when you were making the transition from being in a
band to going behind the scenes, were you aiming at
either just being a producer or just a songwriter primarily,
or was it clear even at the start of that
process that you'd be doing both.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
So in the beginning, it's you know, it's interesting. I
really never thought I would be a producer. H I mean,
the whole world of songwriting and production to me was
so new. I moved out to la in twenty eleven,
and at the time, I really just wanted to Like
I've said this to to some people before, but I
(04:07):
just wanted to be able to make a living making music.
And at the time, the way that I saw path
forward for me was to be a jingle writer. I
had a few connections into the jingle world and I
started to just make some jingles, like and I got
really really lucky the first year that I was trying,
(04:28):
and I was working at, you know, a job at
a restaurant, and within the first like six months of
being out here, I landed. I landed a couple of spots,
and that was able to kind of and from there
I was able to kind of afford the time to
kind of focus a little bit more on being a
songwriter because I, you know, came out here and saw
(04:49):
what you know, Ario Rekschide was doing and trying to start,
you know, with his company Heavy Duty, and I was
really excited about the opportunity to just like kind of
like write some songs and make and make music. Really
so it started kind of in the jingle world and
then it kind of like switched slightly over to focusing
some time into songwriting. And then what happened was is
(05:12):
that in songwriting, you know, like I started to realize
after a few years of doing it, that like a
lot of the the producer was kind of like the
like the gateway into like the world of getting the
song to an artist or to talking to the record labels,
and and like you didn't have a lot of as
(05:33):
a songwriter. You don't have a lot of control as
to what happens with your song, you know. And I
found myself getting frustrated because I would oftentimes go into
writing sessions with other producers, and you know, like you
and I hear this story from tons of songwriters. It's
like you go into a studio, you make a song,
and then it's kind of sitting on the producer's hard drives,
(05:55):
you know, and it's up to the producer to one
finish the production and to get it back to you
or get it to the publishers when you're when you're
dealing more so in the in the you know, quote
unquote pitch world, of which is what I was kind
of like I started in and it became really difficult
because I had literally no control over what happened to
my songs, and I started to get really frustrated with
(06:18):
that process. And I mean, I can't say that I
just like made a quick and easy transition into production.
But all the while, from twenty eleven until like I
really started to make the switch in twenty sixteen twenty seventeen,
I was honing my production chops and never felt like
fully confident that I could do a production fully by myself.
But I was getting better and better, and time, you know,
(06:41):
time was on my side, and in that sense because
I was, you know, able to make money as a
as a jingle writer, so I was able to spend
time focusing on my production. And so yeah, it was
kind of like this like slow gradual shift, you know,
from being a songwriter to then like learning enough production
to be able to be able to produce a song
(07:03):
that I had written myself or a song that I
had written with other people, and I didn't have to
rely on other producers to kind of, you know, to
finish this up.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, And with the economics of the business being what
they are now and where revenue is coming from, I
feel like it's hard to be successful as just a songwriter,
and so there's also an economic incentive to do both.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
And maybe you could speak to how difficult.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
That is just to make a living as a writer,
but also I feel like the economics of it is
the main driver. I feel like in modern pop we
have a lot of people like yourself who really are
outstanding at both, and that the process now when these
ongoing collaborations trappening involves a lot of hanging out and
a lot of trial and error in which writing producing
(07:44):
really are happening simultaneously in some way, and demos end
up being a part of the finished product a lot
of the time and all that. So I feel like
there's a certainly it's hard for people to make a
living just writing, but also I feel like, why wouldn't
writers want to be part of the production process if
if they can, especially when you're really hanging with an
(08:06):
artist the way you have been with some of your biggest.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Stars sure, So, okay, that was I feel like that
was a great question. It was multi like multi levers.
So what was the what's the first question you want?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, just sort of like where where the revenue comes
from nowadays?
Speaker 4 (08:23):
So it's interesting people. Yeah, people talk about this a lot,
you know, And well, I should say, first, it is
so hard to make money as a songwriter nowadays unless
you have a hit song. You know, it's like it
really becomes difficult because there's not a lot of album sales.
And then also the streaming. The streaming favors the master side,
(08:44):
so obviously producers are making money on the master side
more so than the songwriters are. So yeah, so it
definitely like it definitely favors you know, the artists and
the and the producer in that sense. And yeah, it
took me a long time to kind of all so realized,
not even really realize that's the wrong word.
Speaker 5 (09:03):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
I did a lot of songwriting for those first few
years where I was just a songwriter, and I guess
I became surprised as to how little you know, writing
a song with it with a large like a you know,
an A or a B level artist. You know, if
you didn't have the single. I was like, I definitely
was shocked, as like to wow, like, you really don't
make any money as a songwriter, you know, Like and
(09:25):
I think that, you know, you have to kind of
like see it to believe it. You know, you do it,
and a couple of years go by, and you're like, wow,
like that doesn't really equate to being able to pay
your rent, you know. I feel like the interesting thing though,
is that there are a lot of revenue streams for songwriters,
and I do see a lot of songwriters taking advantage
of it. Now is that in like the jingle and
(09:46):
and that's honestly where why I started doing the jingles
is because there is money. There's a lot of sync fees,
you know, to even if even if you're just a
songwriter and you're not the producer, the sync fees for
songs being placed in TV shows and commercials is like,
can be pretty lucrative and I and I do see
some songwriters taking advantage of that, and I wish that
more of them do because the other thing that you
(10:08):
realize when you start to get into the songwriting world
with artists is that you know, even I've started to
learn that not necessarily having this the single obviously makes
the most money, but there is money to be made
when your songs are placed in television and commercials. And
I have tons, like lots of songs with artists that,
while the song wasn't necessarily a hit, do generate income
(10:31):
through the sync, you know, the sink world of like
being placed and stuff. And I find it interesting nowadays
that actually, like because there's so much content on online,
you know, between you know, your netflixes and your Amazon Prime,
your Hulu, like there's all these different like besides just
you know, your network television. You have obviously your shows
(10:52):
on ABC, NBC. There's so many different facets of fastest
is the wrong word. There's so many different television shows
and shows being made that there's lots of weight, there's
a lot there's there's so much need for content nowadays,
you know, And I think that that actually benefits the
songwriters as well as the producers, because lots of songs,
(11:15):
even when they're not singles, do get used, do get placements,
and so I do find that to be like one
of the positives of that ever changing music scene.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, Well, to talk about the role of producer writers
now I mean, I feel like audiences have become a
lot more sophisticated about it, and they know who the
people behind the scenes are, at least when it comes
to your level. Like I would bet that ninety percent
of Olivia fans or ninety percent of Chapel fans know
who you are and they often have opinions.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I feel like that's a very nice percent. I feel
like it's not that much, but yes, like definitely, like
a percentage of them ninety percent scenes pretty pretty crazy, but.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yes, But but you see discussions about this among fandoms
and like even if you look at like the fan
base for a Lady Gaga, they'll have arguments about, you know,
which producers she needs to work with more or work
with less.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Yes, yes, I see that all the time.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And maybe maybe my memory is bad about growing up,
but I don't remember, you know, when I was growing
up arguing about producers being a big facet of the
pop music or top forty experience.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
You know, I think that that.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Has to I mean, like I think you can break
it down and say that that is a what's the
word I'm looking for, Like, that's a factor that's that's
driven by the fact that there's more knowledge on the
internet just in general. I think that when you think
about like even even ten years ago versus today, when
(12:45):
it comes to being a songwriter producer, there's just so
much more knowledge even in the world as to like
what the value is of a publishing deal, and what
should be asked for and what shouldn't be asked for
and those things. I think that people just have in general,
much more more information at their disposal, you know. And
I think that obviously, like with with like TikTok and Instagram,
(13:06):
that there's like everyone has a face now, so you could, like,
so it's easy for a producer to have a face.
But also the same way that like it's easy for
somebody who's making like food, you know, and doing like
food content or or other facts book you know, like
people like doing book reviews or you know.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Book talk.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Like I think just in general, there's there's just a
larger audience for people to have a platform in general,
you know. So I think that's a I guess that's
part of it, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, I mean I feel like I'm trying to compare
you know, the relationship you have with your artists that
you work with two different eras, and I feel like
in some ways we're seeing something a little bit like
the golden era of the real Building or something where
it was Goffin and King or just Barry el Grantwich,
except that the roles on either side have grown where
(13:55):
one of those people in the team is the artist
and the other person on the team is also Phil Spector,
you know, And so we don't have those pure songwriters,
but we but we do have these great songwriting relationships.
But it's just those people happen to be the producer
and the artists as well as the writers. And we
saw a little bit of that through history, but it's
(14:16):
so such a growing thing now, and you're such a
great example of that. And do you compare it to,
you know, anything that happened in history before I tried.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
To think about that. I mean, I always look at
it like, you know, I've used this analogy before. It's like,
it's like being in a band, you know, And I
come from being in a band. I come from the
like a world where like it's like a team of
people making music and I and so I try to
align myself. I feel very lucky. I feel so lucky
that I met Olivia and I met Chapel because to me,
(14:49):
they are these incredible artists that needed like a band member,
you know, like somebody else to make music with. And
so I look at myself as like the team, like
the teammate in a lot of ways, because they have
such a like a strong vision for what they want.
But they're not also like they're not like, you know,
players are you know, obviously both Olivia and Chapple play
(15:10):
piano and play guitar and stuff, but like when you're
in a band, there's like you're kind of able to
feed off of each other and bounce ideas off each
other in real time and like lay them down and
and and like it's really hard to do that as
a solo artist when you don't have like a knack
for using pro tools or like. And so I kind
of see myself just as like the other band, like
a like a band member who like gets to be
(15:31):
in the room and make music and be a part
of the team.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I think I also, like to
I kind of not like to view it, but I
think that I was talking to somebody recently, I forget
who I was having this conversation with about just like
about bands in general, that there's you know, you know,
there's just less bands and there's or like there's less
(15:55):
bands and like at the top of like the charts
and stuff. And I think that's because people are able
to make music individually. Now, Like back at you know,
when I was nineteen years old, I didn't. I mean
when I look back now, like, you know, I'm forty two,
so you're looking back twenty three years later, and when
I look back in retrospect, they go, yeah, I guess
(16:15):
I could have probably taken the time and I probably
should have taken the time back then to like learn
how to use a four track, you know well and
be able to record demos by myself, because that would
have been really beneficial to my career, you know. But
nowadays kids have pro tools and logic and you know,
uh ableton, and they have like they have the they
(16:37):
have Splice or whatever you want, like different websites where
they can go and download loops and basically like just
make songs like by themselves. It's quite easy. Not I
don't want to say it's easy to make a song,
but it's easier to make a song than it was
twenty years ago. But because people are able to work individually,
(16:59):
it like it makes it harder for people to want
to get together in a group of four or five
people and like really like hash out making a.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Song, you know.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
And also it's quite expensive. I mean back in the
day when I was a kid, you know, like you're
talking about, you know, like having to rent a studio
and when you're like seventeen, you know, you know, like
you live with your parents. Like a lot of us
didn't have jobs at sixteen or seventeen, Like trying to
come up with one hundred dollars to pay for the
studio time wasn't really easy to do, you know, or
even go to a recording studio, which was more expensive
(17:30):
to make a you know, make a real demo. Like
I remember when we were kids, like having to actually
save up and I had summer jobs and like really
put the money together to make our demos as a band.
So I just think that like nowadays, like there's there's
room for producers to play the role of the band.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
That yeah, that's interesting because it is kind of like
the best of the real building ethos, but also the
best of being in a rock band ethos, and those
distinctions become blurrier over time.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Yeah, I mean yeah, I like to think about I
guess coming from the rock band because I like to
think of that, I'm just a band member.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
We're going to take a break, but move. You're right
back with more of our conversation with music writer and
producer Dan Nigro in this edition of Variety's Strictly Business Podcast.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
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Speaker 2 (18:56):
Well, speaking of that, I mean, I love the distinction
between pop and rock have gotten so blurry.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
As somebody who is.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
An old school rock and roll guy and someone who
loves pop music, I'm all in favor of that, And
even looking at the artist you work with, I mean,
I don't I don't want to ask you to compare
them necessarily, but I don't know if you have a
take on this. But I just love thinking about the
fact that, like Olivia is just really a rocker, and
you know, her show is a real rock show. I
(19:25):
made a lot of people mad when I reviewed the
opening night and I said it was like the best
rock tour of the year and all these rock how
dare you?
Speaker 5 (19:32):
You know?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
But then you talk to her and kind of in
her off stage persona, she comes off across war like
you'd expect sort of a good natured pop star to be.
You know, she's very sweet and you know, compliments you
for complimenting her, and she's not all spitting vinegar. I
guess I'm saying, like, she's not Courtney Love. And on
the other hand, Chapel doesn't do as much of what
(19:54):
we'd consider rock and roll stylistically per se. She's very
much exploring the varieties of pop, but she has a
a real rock and roll attitude to me. And so
I love that these barriers of musical style and personal
style get mixed up now, and especially see it in
these two artists you're working with, and and so I
don't know if you have any observations about them and
(20:14):
how they are are kind of rock and rollers and
kind of pop people.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
And I mean, I feel like I feel like that
it kind of goes back to the last question, like
it's yeah, exactly, they're they're both rock and rollers in
my opinion, and that's kind of why I in a
lot of ways, we're gravitated towards them as you know,
as a quote unquote band, as a you know, a
team players Like I, I just love their rock and
roll spirit. That both of them just have such like
(20:38):
attitude and grit in making music and the way that
they approach making music, and that's what I like. I
love that about them and and and always want to
help them like bring that part out in the music.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
So yeah, I mean I agree.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
So I guess in short, like I agree with you.
I think they're both you know, they're both rockers and
in a the best way possible, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, And Chapel has been teaching you about country.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Yes, Yes, I feel like I have a lot to learn.
I feel like I feel like I have a lot
a lot to learn, but I am learning and enjoying
learning it, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And what's it like having the Giver out there as
kind of a viral hit just from a TV parents
before you've finished recording it.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
As far as I know, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
I mean, it's great to see that. I mean, listen,
you know, I love going on the internet and seeing
people like. One of the craziest things about you know,
I guess this startle goes to the giver, and I
guess also to the Subway is that it is really
interesting like having songs out on the internet that are
not released commercially yet and seeing people like interpret them,
(21:54):
which is like kind of wild, like like having people
cover your songs and their songs that aren't even out,
you know. I find that that part of it to
be pretty fascinating. I've seen some pretty incredible covers of
Subway already where I'm like, wow, that is such a
beautiful interpretation of the song. And and like the longer
that your song is out, you know, the more room
there's for interpretation of it. So it's kind of wild
(22:17):
to watch that process and like see songs like take
on their own life and you know, and and yeah
they're not even out yet, you know, and that Yeah,
so it's pretty I mean I feel very honored, I
guess in a way that like that people can do
that and that happens so yeah, it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, has there been a it's been such an eventful
year for you, but has there been a highlight you
could single out from the year?
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Highlight of the year? Ooh, okay, yes, I feel like
it's interesting. Like I remember, like, you know, the ground
swell for Chapel has been pretty like you know, from
you know, behind I don't want to say behind the scenes,
but watching it from the beginning of the year, it
(23:02):
felt like it was like reaching like a fever pitch,
you know, like even in the beginning of the year,
and like obviously like none of us could tell like
what was how it was going to kind of like
explode into the public consciousness, but like we could tell that,
or I should say, I could tell that that it
was happening. You know. It just felt like more and
more people were talking about it, more and more people
(23:23):
were hitting me up about songs that we had made together,
and I just felt like, you know, like it was
pretty So I was saying that, you know, I you
know this, she she played, she she's done so many,
so many shows on you know this year that I like,
(23:45):
I like, silly, silly of me that I didn't I
didn't go to the first Coachella performance, and I don't
know why. I was just like, you know, I just
thought like, oh maybe I like, you know, I'll go
next week, you know, like I'll go next week to Coachella.
And I remember the day that the first Coachella performance,
(24:05):
it was so like I just remember like having the
most fomo in my entire life, like literally sitting there
and like having all these people text me be like
are you here? Are you here? Where are you? And
I'm like sitting there in my living room, like you know,
hanging out with my daughter and my wife and being
like no, I'm not here. I'm like I'm not there,
(24:27):
and being like, wow, I really should have been there.
And then I feel like that week, the week the
first Coachella performance, because I think good Luck Baby would
come out the week before, and then yeah, so good
Luck Baby had come out the week before. I don't
remember the exact timeline, but I think that had happened.
Then she played Coachella, and then so I went to
the second week at Coachella, and the energy around the
(24:51):
stage was so insane. You could just like feel like
it was like everybody was like vibrating and It was
also the day that she said the I'm your favorite
artist's favorite artist, and I just remember like being in
the moment and being like and her friend Misha was
like taping her, like we didn't know what she was
(25:11):
going to say before my King Karma, but but like
Misha was taping the set and then she like turns
around like video taping me, because like it was just
like such a crazy moment and we were and was
like all like there for the for the moment, and
just being in the crowd that day and watching that
happen was just pretty like it felt very very very special,
(25:33):
and I was obviously very very happy to be like
to be actually there for the moment that that that
all happened. I said, that was a pretty pretty uh
a memory that will last for a long yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And also a unique moment and that I was trying
to remember the last time there was like a big
smash album and then a big Smash ship that was
like a non album track. I was thinking the Beatles
did that all the time, but there weren't really that
many examples since then.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
No, No, it's you know, it's it's it's I guess
I feel like I'm gonna be misquoted when I say this,
but like, wasn't Good Vibrations not on an album?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (26:08):
I feel like I feel like I watched the Beach
Boys documentary and I didn't realize that, like that Good Vibrations.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Was just a one off single, that's right.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, yeah, which is kind of crazy, but yeah, yeah, no,
it's pretty It's pretty amazing to have a song that
is not on an album, like yeah, to like to
see them both like kind of going on like on
their own in separate terms, it's like pretty special. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, Well, just to ask you about your own label
and the fact that you have said you're not in
a hurry to sign anybody else. And I think I
saw the quote, you know, I have to think about
who do I want to spend the three hundred days with?
Speaker 3 (26:46):
And so you know, you've done the quick.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Hits in your career, you know, the one offs, but
you really seem, I don't know, addicted or accustomed to
doing the deep dive and it's working. And I'm thinking,
if you have these great relationlationships, you know, why why
would you want to be going outside? But do you
think in terms of, yeah, if I'm going to get
involved with somebody I want to do the whole three
hundred day deal. Is that kind of the figure that's
(27:10):
in your mind, I don't.
Speaker 5 (27:11):
You know.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
I actually spent a lot of time thinking about this
for myself, and it's something that I have to learn
to maybe like reassess in myself because I think as
I try to, like, I haven't obviously signed anybody new
to Amusement, but as I go forward with it, I
definitely think about, like I think my first thought when I,
you know, when when when deciding to like really go
(27:34):
through with starting a record label, was was that, yes,
I want to find another artist that I can really
dive deep in with. But I think I also have
to be open to the thought of, like, well, maybe
I have to just to find an artist that I
that I love that already maybe has a creative collaborator
that I just am really into their music and want
to be able to help them release it and get
(27:54):
out get it out to more people, you know, like,
and I started to open myself up to just like
finding that as well. I mean, I haven't found it yet,
but but I think I'm open to like other forms
of what can be Amusement Records you know. I mean
I would love to find someone else. But at the
same time, You're right, I think about that often that
like I have people like Chapel and Olivia and Conan
(28:18):
and these artists that I've worked with for years, and
at some point you kind of realize, oh, like I have. Yeah,
sometimes I think maybe I do have enough creative collaborators
to like, I mean, they keep me very like busy
and fulfilled, like creatively. So like sometimes I go, why
why do I need to find more? You know, And
and that's in that the regard of you know, like
(28:39):
for the label, maybe maybe I have to be looking
at it more as like finding just amazing artists that
already like have their vision you know, uh figured out,
and I'm just helping them as a label, you know,
and not necessarily as a creative collaborator.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, is your twenty twenty five pretty mapped out? I
know there's it sounds like there's still a lot of
work to do on the Chapel album, So that'll keep you.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Yeah, I mean yes, and no, I mean in a
lot of ways it is mapped down. In a lot
of ways, it's not I'm still you know, like I
feel like with all the artists that I work with,
you know, like people like working in you know, in spurts.
It's like you do a few weeks, you do a
couple of days, you take time, you have to reassess
how it's going. And I feel like, yeah, I feel like,
(29:24):
I feel like there's definitely, uh, there's definitely room for
me to be doing other things, you know. But I'm yeah,
working on working on Chapel stuff, working on some some
Conan stuff, working on some things right now.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Well, congratulations just on having the track record of I mean,
when I think of my favorite albums by young artists
since the turn of the century, it's those two Olivia
albums and Chapel's album, and listening to those, I wouldn't
necessarily know it's the same person who is a key collaborator,
which is part of what's great, other than the enormous
(29:58):
melodies that they have common. And maybe that would lead me,
if I was a smart person and didn't have roles
and credits in front of me, to think, oh, maybe
maybe some of that stuff's coming from the same well,
but it doesn't. Their their styles are different enough that
it's the melodies that they have in common certainly, and
(30:18):
you just seem to be I certainly want to give
them credit for those two, but I just wonder like
you seem to be such an endless wellspring of great
melodic ideas, and you don't ever worry those will try
up to you.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
They just seem to come to you.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
Hope not. Yeah, all right, thanks Chris, I really appreciate it. Man.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Okay, thank you, Dan.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
That's it for our conversation today with Daniel Nigro. You
can read more about Dan in Variety's twenty twenty four
Hit Maker's Issue in print or online, as we celebrate
him as the Producer of the Year, and we'll find
out soon enough whether the Grammys agree on that honor.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review
at Apple Podcasts or Amazon Music. We love to hear
from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and sign
up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't
forget to tune in next week for another episode of
Strictly Business.
Through our Songwriter's Forward initiatives, Sony Music Publishing is delivering
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score portal. We are constantly evolving to fit the needs
(00:21):
of our songwriters today and tomorrow. To learn more about
Songwriters Forward, visit sonymusicpub dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hello and welcome to another episode of Strictly Business, the
podcast in which we speak with some of the brightest
minds working in the media business today. I'm Chris Wilman,
chief music critic and senior writer with Variety. Today's guest
is Daniel Nigro, who's nominated for Producer of the Year
at the upcoming twenty twenty five Grammy Awards. That title,
He's also been celebrated as Producer of the Year at
(01:03):
Variety's annual Hitmaker's event. Dan's Producer of the Year nomination
the Grammys is based largely on this past year's breakout
success by chapel Rod. He produced all of and co
wrote most of her debut album, The Rise and Fall
of the Midwest Princess. On the basis of that top
ten recording, Roan is a leading favorite to win the
Best New Artist Grammy, and she and Nigro nominated together
(01:25):
in categories including Album, Record and Song of the Year.
The success falls on the heels of a similar collaboration
with Olivia Rodrigo on her first two albums, making him
the creative partner with the tupop artists who have arguably
had the two most meteoric rises since the turn of
the decade. This wasn't his career past starting out, though
he spent pretty much the duration of two thousands as
(01:47):
a member of a rock band called As Tall as Lions.
From there, the path he took to where he is
involved being a jingle writer, which is evidence of his
facility for unforgettable pop books before he started hooking up
with artists including Conin Gray, Kylie Minogue, Caroline Paulchek, and
Sky Ferrera prior to working close to full time with
rod and Rodrigo. We'll talk with Nigro about that journey.
(02:10):
What about how he sees the role of the producer
writer in today's pop music. You'll hear all about this
at our conversation we strictly Business comes back after the break.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
At Sony Music Publishing. We are redefining the future of
songwriters support. Through our Songwriter Assistance Program, every SMP songwriter
around the world gets access to free counseling services and
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(02:50):
learn more about Songwriter Assistance and the rest of our
Songwriter's Forward initiatives, visit sonymusicpub dot com.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
We're back with the Idael Nigro, the producer and writer
who has been the close collaborator of Olivia Rodrigo and
Chavel Road in their breakout successes. You were nominated for
Producer of the Year at the Grammys. He won Songwriter
of the Year at the ASHCAP Awards, And it's interesting
to me that at the Grammys for their fairly New
Songwriter to your category, you have to be a non
producing and songwriter to be eligible.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
But it really feels.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Like we're exiting the era in which those roles are
usually seeing as separate. So I'm curious it's looking back
when you were making the transition from being in a
band to going behind the scenes, were you aiming at
either just being a producer or just a songwriter primarily,
or was it clear even at the start of that
process that you'd be doing both.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
So in the beginning, it's you know, it's interesting. I
really never thought I would be a producer. H I mean,
the whole world of songwriting and production to me was
so new. I moved out to la in twenty eleven,
and at the time, I really just wanted to Like
I've said this to to some people before, but I
(04:07):
just wanted to be able to make a living making music.
And at the time, the way that I saw path
forward for me was to be a jingle writer. I
had a few connections into the jingle world and I
started to just make some jingles, like and I got
really really lucky the first year that I was trying,
(04:28):
and I was working at, you know, a job at
a restaurant, and within the first like six months of
being out here, I landed. I landed a couple of spots,
and that was able to kind of and from there
I was able to kind of afford the time to
kind of focus a little bit more on being a
songwriter because I, you know, came out here and saw
(04:49):
what you know, Ario Rekschide was doing and trying to start,
you know, with his company Heavy Duty, and I was
really excited about the opportunity to just like kind of
like write some songs and make and make music. Really
so it started kind of in the jingle world and
then it kind of like switched slightly over to focusing
some time into songwriting. And then what happened was is
(05:12):
that in songwriting, you know, like I started to realize
after a few years of doing it, that like a
lot of the the producer was kind of like the
like the gateway into like the world of getting the
song to an artist or to talking to the record labels,
and and like you didn't have a lot of as
(05:33):
a songwriter. You don't have a lot of control as
to what happens with your song, you know. And I
found myself getting frustrated because I would oftentimes go into
writing sessions with other producers, and you know, like you
and I hear this story from tons of songwriters. It's
like you go into a studio, you make a song,
and then it's kind of sitting on the producer's hard drives,
(05:55):
you know, and it's up to the producer to one
finish the production and to get it back to you
or get it to the publishers when you're when you're
dealing more so in the in the you know, quote
unquote pitch world, of which is what I was kind
of like I started in and it became really difficult
because I had literally no control over what happened to
my songs, and I started to get really frustrated with
(06:18):
that process. And I mean, I can't say that I
just like made a quick and easy transition into production.
But all the while, from twenty eleven until like I
really started to make the switch in twenty sixteen twenty seventeen,
I was honing my production chops and never felt like
fully confident that I could do a production fully by myself.
But I was getting better and better, and time, you know,
(06:41):
time was on my side, and in that sense because
I was, you know, able to make money as a
as a jingle writer, so I was able to spend
time focusing on my production. And so yeah, it was
kind of like this like slow gradual shift, you know,
from being a songwriter to then like learning enough production
to be able to be able to produce a song
(07:03):
that I had written myself or a song that I
had written with other people, and I didn't have to
rely on other producers to kind of, you know, to
finish this up.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Yeah, And with the economics of the business being what
they are now and where revenue is coming from, I
feel like it's hard to be successful as just a songwriter,
and so there's also an economic incentive to do both.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
And maybe you could speak to how difficult.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
That is just to make a living as a writer,
but also I feel like the economics of it is
the main driver. I feel like in modern pop we
have a lot of people like yourself who really are
outstanding at both, and that the process now when these
ongoing collaborations trappening involves a lot of hanging out and
a lot of trial and error in which writing producing
(07:44):
really are happening simultaneously in some way, and demos end
up being a part of the finished product a lot
of the time and all that. So I feel like
there's a certainly it's hard for people to make a
living just writing, but also I feel like, why wouldn't
writers want to be part of the production process if
if they can, especially when you're really hanging with an
(08:06):
artist the way you have been with some of your biggest.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Stars sure, So, okay, that was I feel like that
was a great question. It was multi like multi levers.
So what was the what's the first question you want?
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Yeah, just sort of like where where the revenue comes
from nowadays?
Speaker 4 (08:23):
So it's interesting people. Yeah, people talk about this a lot,
you know, And well, I should say, first, it is
so hard to make money as a songwriter nowadays unless
you have a hit song. You know, it's like it
really becomes difficult because there's not a lot of album sales.
And then also the streaming. The streaming favors the master side,
(08:44):
so obviously producers are making money on the master side
more so than the songwriters are. So yeah, so it
definitely like it definitely favors you know, the artists and
the and the producer in that sense. And yeah, it
took me a long time to kind of all so realized,
not even really realize that's the wrong word.
Speaker 5 (09:03):
You know.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
I did a lot of songwriting for those first few
years where I was just a songwriter, and I guess
I became surprised as to how little you know, writing
a song with it with a large like a you know,
an A or a B level artist. You know, if
you didn't have the single. I was like, I definitely
was shocked, as like to wow, like, you really don't
make any money as a songwriter, you know, Like and
(09:25):
I think that, you know, you have to kind of
like see it to believe it. You know, you do it,
and a couple of years go by, and you're like, wow,
like that doesn't really equate to being able to pay
your rent, you know. I feel like the interesting thing though,
is that there are a lot of revenue streams for songwriters,
and I do see a lot of songwriters taking advantage
of it. Now is that in like the jingle and
(09:46):
and that's honestly where why I started doing the jingles
is because there is money. There's a lot of sync fees,
you know, to even if even if you're just a
songwriter and you're not the producer, the sync fees for
songs being placed in TV shows and commercials is like,
can be pretty lucrative and I and I do see
some songwriters taking advantage of that, and I wish that
more of them do because the other thing that you
(10:08):
realize when you start to get into the songwriting world
with artists is that you know, even I've started to
learn that not necessarily having this the single obviously makes
the most money, but there is money to be made
when your songs are placed in television and commercials. And
I have tons, like lots of songs with artists that,
while the song wasn't necessarily a hit, do generate income
(10:31):
through the sync, you know, the sink world of like
being placed and stuff. And I find it interesting nowadays
that actually, like because there's so much content on online,
you know, between you know, your netflixes and your Amazon Prime,
your Hulu, like there's all these different like besides just
you know, your network television. You have obviously your shows
(10:52):
on ABC, NBC. There's so many different facets of fastest
is the wrong word. There's so many different television shows
and shows being made that there's lots of weight, there's
a lot there's there's so much need for content nowadays,
you know, And I think that that actually benefits the
songwriters as well as the producers, because lots of songs,
(11:15):
even when they're not singles, do get used, do get placements,
and so I do find that to be like one
of the positives of that ever changing music scene.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Yeah, Well, to talk about the role of producer writers
now I mean, I feel like audiences have become a
lot more sophisticated about it, and they know who the
people behind the scenes are, at least when it comes
to your level. Like I would bet that ninety percent
of Olivia fans or ninety percent of Chapel fans know
who you are and they often have opinions.
Speaker 4 (11:45):
I feel like that's a very nice percent. I feel
like it's not that much, but yes, like definitely, like
a percentage of them ninety percent scenes pretty pretty crazy, but.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Yes, But but you see discussions about this among fandoms
and like even if you look at like the fan
base for a Lady Gaga, they'll have arguments about, you know,
which producers she needs to work with more or work
with less.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Yes, yes, I see that all the time.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
And maybe maybe my memory is bad about growing up,
but I don't remember, you know, when I was growing
up arguing about producers being a big facet of the
pop music or top forty experience.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
You know, I think that that.
Speaker 4 (12:25):
Has to I mean, like I think you can break
it down and say that that is a what's the
word I'm looking for, Like, that's a factor that's that's
driven by the fact that there's more knowledge on the
internet just in general. I think that when you think
about like even even ten years ago versus today, when
(12:45):
it comes to being a songwriter producer, there's just so
much more knowledge even in the world as to like
what the value is of a publishing deal, and what
should be asked for and what shouldn't be asked for
and those things. I think that people just have in general,
much more more information at their disposal, you know. And
I think that obviously, like with with like TikTok and Instagram,
(13:06):
that there's like everyone has a face now, so you could, like,
so it's easy for a producer to have a face.
But also the same way that like it's easy for
somebody who's making like food, you know, and doing like
food content or or other facts book you know, like
people like doing book reviews or you know.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Book talk.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
Like I think just in general, there's there's just a
larger audience for people to have a platform in general,
you know. So I think that's a I guess that's
part of it, you know.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, I mean I feel like I'm trying to compare
you know, the relationship you have with your artists that
you work with two different eras, and I feel like
in some ways we're seeing something a little bit like
the golden era of the real Building or something where
it was Goffin and King or just Barry el Grantwich,
except that the roles on either side have grown where
(13:55):
one of those people in the team is the artist
and the other person on the team is also Phil Spector,
you know, And so we don't have those pure songwriters,
but we but we do have these great songwriting relationships.
But it's just those people happen to be the producer
and the artists as well as the writers. And we
saw a little bit of that through history, but it's
(14:16):
so such a growing thing now, and you're such a
great example of that. And do you compare it to,
you know, anything that happened in history before I tried.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
To think about that. I mean, I always look at
it like, you know, I've used this analogy before. It's like,
it's like being in a band, you know, And I
come from being in a band. I come from the
like a world where like it's like a team of
people making music and I and so I try to
align myself. I feel very lucky. I feel so lucky
that I met Olivia and I met Chapel because to me,
(14:49):
they are these incredible artists that needed like a band member,
you know, like somebody else to make music with. And
so I look at myself as like the team, like
the teammate in a lot of ways, because they have
such a like a strong vision for what they want.
But they're not also like they're not like, you know,
players are you know, obviously both Olivia and Chapple play
(15:10):
piano and play guitar and stuff, but like when you're
in a band, there's like you're kind of able to
feed off of each other and bounce ideas off each
other in real time and like lay them down and
and and like it's really hard to do that as
a solo artist when you don't have like a knack
for using pro tools or like. And so I kind
of see myself just as like the other band, like
a like a band member who like gets to be
(15:31):
in the room and make music and be a part
of the team.
Speaker 5 (15:34):
You know.
Speaker 4 (15:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So I think I also, like to
I kind of not like to view it, but I
think that I was talking to somebody recently, I forget
who I was having this conversation with about just like
about bands in general, that there's you know, you know,
there's just less bands and there's or like there's less
(15:55):
bands and like at the top of like the charts
and stuff. And I think that's because people are able
to make music individually. Now, Like back at you know,
when I was nineteen years old, I didn't. I mean
when I look back now, like, you know, I'm forty two,
so you're looking back twenty three years later, and when
I look back in retrospect, they go, yeah, I guess
(16:15):
I could have probably taken the time and I probably
should have taken the time back then to like learn
how to use a four track, you know well and
be able to record demos by myself, because that would
have been really beneficial to my career, you know. But
nowadays kids have pro tools and logic and you know,
uh ableton, and they have like they have the they
(16:37):
have Splice or whatever you want, like different websites where
they can go and download loops and basically like just
make songs like by themselves. It's quite easy. Not I
don't want to say it's easy to make a song,
but it's easier to make a song than it was
twenty years ago. But because people are able to work individually,
(16:59):
it like it makes it harder for people to want
to get together in a group of four or five
people and like really like hash out making a.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Song, you know.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
And also it's quite expensive. I mean back in the
day when I was a kid, you know, like you're
talking about, you know, like having to rent a studio
and when you're like seventeen, you know, you know, like
you live with your parents. Like a lot of us
didn't have jobs at sixteen or seventeen, Like trying to
come up with one hundred dollars to pay for the
studio time wasn't really easy to do, you know, or
even go to a recording studio, which was more expensive
(17:30):
to make a you know, make a real demo. Like
I remember when we were kids, like having to actually
save up and I had summer jobs and like really
put the money together to make our demos as a band.
So I just think that like nowadays, like there's there's
room for producers to play the role of the band.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
That yeah, that's interesting because it is kind of like
the best of the real building ethos, but also the
best of being in a rock band ethos, and those
distinctions become blurrier over time.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Yeah, I mean yeah, I like to think about I
guess coming from the rock band because I like to
think of that, I'm just a band member.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
We're going to take a break, but move. You're right
back with more of our conversation with music writer and
producer Dan Nigro in this edition of Variety's Strictly Business Podcast.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
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access available funds in real time and stay informed of
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(18:42):
more about cash Out Score and the rest of our
songwriters Forward initiatives, visit sonymusicpub dot com.
Speaker 2 (18:56):
Well, speaking of that, I mean, I love the distinction
between pop and rock have gotten so blurry.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
As somebody who is.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
An old school rock and roll guy and someone who
loves pop music, I'm all in favor of that, And
even looking at the artist you work with, I mean,
I don't I don't want to ask you to compare
them necessarily, but I don't know if you have a
take on this. But I just love thinking about the
fact that, like Olivia is just really a rocker, and
you know, her show is a real rock show. I
(19:25):
made a lot of people mad when I reviewed the
opening night and I said it was like the best
rock tour of the year and all these rock how
dare you?
Speaker 5 (19:32):
You know?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
But then you talk to her and kind of in
her off stage persona, she comes off across war like
you'd expect sort of a good natured pop star to be.
You know, she's very sweet and you know, compliments you
for complimenting her, and she's not all spitting vinegar. I
guess I'm saying, like, she's not Courtney Love. And on
the other hand, Chapel doesn't do as much of what
(19:54):
we'd consider rock and roll stylistically per se. She's very
much exploring the varieties of pop, but she has a
a real rock and roll attitude to me. And so
I love that these barriers of musical style and personal
style get mixed up now, and especially see it in
these two artists you're working with, and and so I
don't know if you have any observations about them and
(20:14):
how they are are kind of rock and rollers and
kind of pop people.
Speaker 4 (20:18):
And I mean, I feel like I feel like that
it kind of goes back to the last question, like
it's yeah, exactly, they're they're both rock and rollers in
my opinion, and that's kind of why I in a
lot of ways, we're gravitated towards them as you know,
as a quote unquote band, as a you know, a
team players Like I, I just love their rock and
roll spirit. That both of them just have such like
(20:38):
attitude and grit in making music and the way that
they approach making music, and that's what I like. I
love that about them and and and always want to
help them like bring that part out in the music.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
So yeah, I mean I agree.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
So I guess in short, like I agree with you.
I think they're both you know, they're both rockers and
in a the best way possible, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, And Chapel has been teaching you about country.
Speaker 4 (21:08):
Yes, Yes, I feel like I have a lot to learn.
I feel like I feel like I have a lot
a lot to learn, but I am learning and enjoying
learning it, you know.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And what's it like having the Giver out there as
kind of a viral hit just from a TV parents
before you've finished recording it.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
As far as I know, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
I mean, it's great to see that. I mean, listen,
you know, I love going on the internet and seeing
people like. One of the craziest things about you know,
I guess this startle goes to the giver, and I
guess also to the Subway is that it is really
interesting like having songs out on the internet that are
not released commercially yet and seeing people like interpret them,
(21:54):
which is like kind of wild, like like having people
cover your songs and their songs that aren't even out,
you know. I find that that part of it to
be pretty fascinating. I've seen some pretty incredible covers of
Subway already where I'm like, wow, that is such a
beautiful interpretation of the song. And and like the longer
that your song is out, you know, the more room
there's for interpretation of it. So it's kind of wild
(22:17):
to watch that process and like see songs like take
on their own life and you know, and and yeah
they're not even out yet, you know, and that Yeah,
so it's pretty I mean I feel very honored, I
guess in a way that like that people can do
that and that happens so yeah, it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Yeah, has there been a it's been such an eventful
year for you, but has there been a highlight you
could single out from the year?
Speaker 4 (22:41):
Highlight of the year? Ooh, okay, yes, I feel like
it's interesting. Like I remember, like, you know, the ground
swell for Chapel has been pretty like you know, from
you know, behind I don't want to say behind the scenes,
but watching it from the beginning of the year, it
(23:02):
felt like it was like reaching like a fever pitch,
you know, like even in the beginning of the year,
and like obviously like none of us could tell like
what was how it was going to kind of like
explode into the public consciousness, but like we could tell that,
or I should say, I could tell that that it
was happening. You know. It just felt like more and
more people were talking about it, more and more people
(23:23):
were hitting me up about songs that we had made together,
and I just felt like, you know, like it was
pretty So I was saying that, you know, I you
know this, she she played, she she's done so many,
so many shows on you know this year that I like,
(23:45):
I like, silly, silly of me that I didn't I
didn't go to the first Coachella performance, and I don't
know why. I was just like, you know, I just
thought like, oh maybe I like, you know, I'll go
next week, you know, like I'll go next week to Coachella.
And I remember the day that the first Coachella performance,
(24:05):
it was so like I just remember like having the
most fomo in my entire life, like literally sitting there
and like having all these people text me be like
are you here? Are you here? Where are you? And
I'm like sitting there in my living room, like you know,
hanging out with my daughter and my wife and being
like no, I'm not here. I'm like I'm not there,
(24:27):
and being like, wow, I really should have been there.
And then I feel like that week, the week the
first Coachella performance, because I think good Luck Baby would
come out the week before, and then yeah, so good
Luck Baby had come out the week before. I don't
remember the exact timeline, but I think that had happened.
Then she played Coachella, and then so I went to
the second week at Coachella, and the energy around the
(24:51):
stage was so insane. You could just like feel like
it was like everybody was like vibrating and It was
also the day that she said the I'm your favorite
artist's favorite artist, and I just remember like being in
the moment and being like and her friend Misha was
like taping her, like we didn't know what she was
(25:11):
going to say before my King Karma, but but like
Misha was taping the set and then she like turns
around like video taping me, because like it was just
like such a crazy moment and we were and was
like all like there for the for the moment, and
just being in the crowd that day and watching that
happen was just pretty like it felt very very very special,
(25:33):
and I was obviously very very happy to be like
to be actually there for the moment that that that
all happened. I said, that was a pretty pretty uh
a memory that will last for a long yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
And also a unique moment and that I was trying
to remember the last time there was like a big
smash album and then a big Smash ship that was
like a non album track. I was thinking the Beatles
did that all the time, but there weren't really that
many examples since then.
Speaker 4 (25:57):
No, No, it's you know, it's it's it's I guess
I feel like I'm gonna be misquoted when I say this,
but like, wasn't Good Vibrations not on an album?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (26:08):
I feel like I feel like I watched the Beach
Boys documentary and I didn't realize that, like that Good Vibrations.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Was just a one off single, that's right.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, yeah, which is kind of crazy, but yeah, yeah, no,
it's pretty It's pretty amazing to have a song that
is not on an album, like yeah, to like to
see them both like kind of going on like on
their own in separate terms, it's like pretty special. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, Well, just to ask you about your own label
and the fact that you have said you're not in
a hurry to sign anybody else. And I think I
saw the quote, you know, I have to think about
who do I want to spend the three hundred days with?
Speaker 3 (26:46):
And so you know, you've done the quick.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Hits in your career, you know, the one offs, but
you really seem, I don't know, addicted or accustomed to
doing the deep dive and it's working. And I'm thinking,
if you have these great relationlationships, you know, why why
would you want to be going outside? But do you
think in terms of, yeah, if I'm going to get
involved with somebody I want to do the whole three
hundred day deal. Is that kind of the figure that's
(27:10):
in your mind, I don't.
Speaker 5 (27:11):
You know.
Speaker 4 (27:11):
I actually spent a lot of time thinking about this
for myself, and it's something that I have to learn
to maybe like reassess in myself because I think as
I try to, like, I haven't obviously signed anybody new
to Amusement, but as I go forward with it, I
definitely think about, like I think my first thought when I,
you know, when when when deciding to like really go
(27:34):
through with starting a record label, was was that, yes,
I want to find another artist that I can really
dive deep in with. But I think I also have
to be open to the thought of, like, well, maybe
I have to just to find an artist that I
that I love that already maybe has a creative collaborator
that I just am really into their music and want
to be able to help them release it and get
(27:54):
out get it out to more people, you know, like,
and I started to open myself up to just like
finding that as well. I mean, I haven't found it yet,
but but I think I'm open to like other forms
of what can be Amusement Records you know. I mean
I would love to find someone else. But at the
same time, You're right, I think about that often that
like I have people like Chapel and Olivia and Conan
(28:18):
and these artists that I've worked with for years, and
at some point you kind of realize, oh, like I have. Yeah,
sometimes I think maybe I do have enough creative collaborators
to like, I mean, they keep me very like busy
and fulfilled, like creatively. So like sometimes I go, why
why do I need to find more? You know, And
and that's in that the regard of you know, like
(28:39):
for the label, maybe maybe I have to be looking
at it more as like finding just amazing artists that
already like have their vision you know, uh figured out,
and I'm just helping them as a label, you know,
and not necessarily as a creative collaborator.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Yeah, is your twenty twenty five pretty mapped out? I
know there's it sounds like there's still a lot of
work to do on the Chapel album, So that'll keep you.
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Yeah, I mean yes, and no, I mean in a
lot of ways it is mapped down. In a lot
of ways, it's not I'm still you know, like I
feel like with all the artists that I work with,
you know, like people like working in you know, in spurts.
It's like you do a few weeks, you do a
couple of days, you take time, you have to reassess
how it's going. And I feel like, yeah, I feel like,
(29:24):
I feel like there's definitely, uh, there's definitely room for
me to be doing other things, you know. But I'm yeah,
working on working on Chapel stuff, working on some some
Conan stuff, working on some things right now.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Well, congratulations just on having the track record of I mean,
when I think of my favorite albums by young artists
since the turn of the century, it's those two Olivia
albums and Chapel's album, and listening to those, I wouldn't
necessarily know it's the same person who is a key collaborator,
which is part of what's great, other than the enormous
(29:58):
melodies that they have common. And maybe that would lead me,
if I was a smart person and didn't have roles
and credits in front of me, to think, oh, maybe
maybe some of that stuff's coming from the same well,
but it doesn't. Their their styles are different enough that
it's the melodies that they have in common certainly, and
(30:18):
you just seem to be I certainly want to give
them credit for those two, but I just wonder like
you seem to be such an endless wellspring of great
melodic ideas, and you don't ever worry those will try
up to you.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
They just seem to come to you.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
Hope not. Yeah, all right, thanks Chris, I really appreciate it. Man.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Okay, thank you, Dan.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
That's it for our conversation today with Daniel Nigro. You
can read more about Dan in Variety's twenty twenty four
Hit Maker's Issue in print or online, as we celebrate
him as the Producer of the Year, and we'll find
out soon enough whether the Grammys agree on that honor.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review
at Apple Podcasts or Amazon Music. We love to hear
from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and sign
up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't
forget to tune in next week for another episode of
Strictly Business.
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