January 22, 2025 • 41 mins
David J. Lee, chief operating officer and chief financial officer of Webtoon Entertainment, discusses the rapid growth of webtoons as a digital entertainment medium during a session held as part of the Variety Entertainment Summit at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. And prolific webtoon creator Brandon Chen, author of "Just a Goblin" and many other titles, explains the appeal of the graphic novel-like format as a creative outlet and training ground for budding storytellers.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcasts featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment Today.
My guests are movers and shakers in the world of webtuns.
What is a webtoon? You ask, well, keep listening, But
in Hollywood shorthand, it's like a graphic novel meets a
(00:27):
blog scroll meets a soap opera. David J. Lee is
chief operating Officer and chief financial Officer of Webtoon Entertainment.
The Los Angeles based company is a big force in
this growing digital storytelling medium that got its start about
a decade ago in South Korea. My conversation with Lee
(00:49):
was held January eighth as part of Variety's annual Entertainment
Summit at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. A
week later, I got on a zoom with the top
webtune creator Brandon Chen to get his perspective on this
cutting edge new format. My conversation with Webtoon Entertainments David
(01:09):
jay Lee is coming up right after this break, and
we're back with a conversation from cees with Webtoon Entertainments.
David jay Lee, let's start a little bit and just
(01:30):
unpack exactly what a webtune is. The best sort of
the best shorthand description. Hollywood always loves it's this meets
this plus this, But the best sort of shorthand description
of what an actual web tune is is sort of
a mix between a blog and a manga. That might
(01:50):
be a little oversimplified, But David, if we could start
just by really sort of sketching out what when people
go to webtoon users online, because it's a digital platform
in terms of the core of the of the business
and the storytelling, when somebody goes to a find a webtune,
what user experience is that?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, it's a great question. And for those in the
audience who may not have heard of webtune, I have
the feeling you may have seen a great live action
film and didn't realize it came from us. And if
you have friends and family who are in our core target,
which is the gen Z target, I know that they're
familiar with us. Let me explain what the company is,
but then explain what the experience is. So Webtune is
(02:33):
a company, is global. We've got one hundred and seventy
million monthly active users, but We have twenty four million
creators who are creating over one hundred and twenty thousand
stories every day right new there for the taking by
our gen Z consumers, and the experience is truly digital
and mobile, and it spans way beyond one genre. It's
(02:54):
more than manga. It's any genre you can imagine. Imagine
a gen Z consumer in their palm of their hand
on a mobile device, with a flick of their fingers,
can scroll and in a fraction of a moment see
just enough imagery a few words to tell them where
a story is going. And at the same time, these
consumers are spending once they find their great story, thirty
(03:15):
to sixteen minutes a day reading either a web novel
or what we call a webcomic or a web tune.
For me, having started in the advertising business, it reminds
me of a incredible next generation of a digital storyboard,
which is why we love the one point three billion
and reported revenue we generate on our platform. But we
(03:36):
love the consumers get to see these stories as rich
film adaptations on Netflix or Amazon Prime where you saw
one that came out recently after Thanksgiving on TB And
so we're a great untold story. People don't realize they've
seen our stories. And you know, I'd love to unpack
a little bit about what we're all about here.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Absolutely yeah, I think. I mean, you had the audience
at twenty four million. That is an astounding number. How
do you even Before we talk about sort of adapting
into other media, I want to talk just the mechanics
of sort of how it works. It's user generated, so
people can upload their they upload their imagery, they upload Now,
(04:18):
in my understanding of it, it's largely kind of in
you know, comp graphic form, comic book form. But are
you finding now people are uploading video as well with
their with their web tunes?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well what they're they're starting to upload if you think
about it, these twenty four million creators, the vast majority
have full time jobs. You know. A great example is
a young woman named Rachel Smythe who was a brilliant
graphic designer who thought she might have a story to
tell in New Zealand and she can come to our site.
She did. It's called Canvas. We've worked really hard as
(04:49):
a tech and an AI company to make it easy
for anyone who thinks they might have a story that
someone wants to see to create that story, either as
a web novel or or if they have a sense
of imagery, what we call a webcomic. And so these
are if you think about our product, just like you
can imagine going through a digital storyboard. You can scroll
(05:12):
through vertically this unique format and see where these stories
are going. In the case of Rachel, she like many
of our twenty four million creators, didn't realize that her
story would allow her to be a global creator. She
is a New York Times bestselling author in print, which
we helped her enable. And we may be the only
company that has shared two point eight billion dollars as
(05:35):
a core function of our business model with creators. That's
why we have so many, because we're truly aligned to
the fact that consumers want new stories, they want stories
from unexpected global sources, and entertainment companies want proven, validated
with market signal hits that come from places like us
for them to turn into great pieces of film or
(05:57):
merchandise or games. So that's the reason why I think
we have this unique ecosystem of a global consumption on
our platform, these one hundred and seventy million monthly active users,
a format that allows anybody to be able to see
in a fraction of a second where a story is going,
and a d risked profile for an evergreen source of stories,
I hope increasingly for the media industry, which we're going
(06:20):
to talk about more today.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I mean, you know, there's just no shortage of interest.
You know, from the beginnings of Hollywood to today. The
story the kernel. It starts with the story. It's a cliche,
it starts on the page, but it's it starts with
the story. And what's interesting in the modern age is
that so many people are empowered as storytellers. I think
(06:44):
in the past people felt like, well, I'm not a
Hollywood screenwriter. I'm not, you know, but this is like
a forum like so many other social media platforms are.
But it's such a specific forum. Let me ask us
again a few more questions about the mechanics of the
core web tune business. Does your company do you curate
some of these? Do you see when things start to
(07:05):
bubble up you curate them and help kind of recommend
them or is it really.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, I think they're think of the experiences. We're very
much empowering creators, as you mentioned, to be able to
present the story in a way that everyone can consume.
So a bunch of our technology, for example here in
the US we call it canvas, allows a great amateur
creator to see if somebody might love their story as
a webcomic or on our wapat platform or web novel.
(07:32):
But then with one hundred and over one hundred and
twenty thousand stories arriving every single day, a lot of
our AI technology is to make sure that as a consumer,
these gen Z consumers, they want an unexpected story, but
they have to find it. So having AI based personalization
engines to allow we call her Mattie as our target consumer.
You know, she's maybe just out of college, or maybe
(07:54):
she's getting a cup of coffee, and Mattie loves the
story that she's reading. But we know so much about
what she loves that presenting her the ability to see
the next story is a big part of our underlying technology.
And then there's a large amount of this also which
is geared around ensuring that we protect both the creator
and the consumer to ensure that the content is safe.
(08:18):
But also we all as content generations generators, fight piracy.
So a large amount of our tech is to make
this ecosystem healthy and because we're global, that's required us
to be a tech company at origin, which we were
bored out of, a global tech company, but a media
and entertainment company in reality as now that we're generating.
(08:38):
We have over nine hundred adaptations of stories outside our platform,
one hundred of which are rich film releases in TV
and movies. You know, two of Netflix's all time top
ten projects ever came from us, right, what are those titles? Yes,
so all of Us are Dead was one of them.
And Through My Window, which was an unex affected web
(09:00):
novel that came out of the Spanish and language creators,
was amazing. But you know, every quarter this happens, right,
Love Me, Love Me in Italy, you know, seeking me
votes from Spain. We talked about last quarter Sideline, the
Quarterback and Me. The day after Thanksgiving here in the
US was a top five hit on two B which
start no a back this great social media star. So
(09:23):
more and more, I think the world is waking up
to the fact that people love a good story, and
they love it in all formats on our platform, as
a webcomic or a web novel, but certainly as a
rich film release, a live action release on either TV
or on the big screen.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
How do you with over one hundred thousand stories coming in?
Did you say every day?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Every day?
Speaker 1 (09:44):
I can't even imagine, you know, the ranks of studio
executives that it would take to process that. How do
you deal with content moderation? I got to believe that
not every one of those people are good citizens. And
you know, maybe there's some stuff that you don't want
on the platform. Do you reserve the right to say, hey,
this isn't right for web tune?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
I mean, this is where our technology comes into play.
I used to be in businesses in mobile gaming and
other consumer businesses where we were relying on a lot
of hard work by a lot of humans. But while
we have that, we have the benefit of cutting edge
AI technology our own, but we're very happy to partner
with whoever has the best, and we like to think
(10:23):
that we provide a real advantage for creators on piracy
and consumers on safety. But a large part of it
is also market signal. You know, when you have one
hundred and seventy million monthly active users across multiple languages
across the globe, and they are so protective of the
community that we have, they're a big part of our
warning system as well. And you know, we can talk
(10:44):
about all the policies, the technology. We like to think
we are cutting edge here, but I think the core
is what's differentiating is the technology we have and the
community base we have and the track record. You know,
Protecting creators and consumers has been our story since its origin,
and it's taken us over ten years to arrive as
now a public company at scale. But now that we are,
(11:08):
we can have these one hundred and twenty thousand stories
that we think are readable and safer consumers arrive every day.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I could imagine that that with that kind of volume,
you'd have to have an AI tool, you would have
to have something so you have certain red flags that
they're looking for. Not to hammer on this, but you know,
content moderation is a big subject for us. Let's talk
about so how does it work with the creators and
the business model. The more people read, the more it's
(11:37):
basically a revenue share.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, so we share in the success of amateur creators
as they become superstars. And there are so many examples
of folks who didn't realize that they had a voice
that deserve to be heard. Our model, while simple, is
really hard. You know, it is difficult for a company
to do what we've done because this to twenty million
(12:00):
dollars we've shared means that we're in it with them.
And from a consumer standpoint, you know, we don't force
heavy subscriptions. You know, Maddie as our gen Z target consumer.
By the way, over seventy percent of our consumers in
North America say they can't find the stories they find
anywhere else. Same percent says that their experience on our
platform is more fun than great companies like Roadblocks and TikTok.
(12:23):
And the reason why that's true is Maddie can serve
her as long as she wants, and when she finds
a story, it feels like her discovery, a bit like
discovering a real or a video that she feels no
one else has seen. She only pays fifteen to seventy
cents to see the latest breaking episode of the story
that she picked, and we are patient. We let our
(12:45):
Maddie's take all the time they want to find the
story they want, and she doesn't have to always pay.
She can watch a video, maybe it's an advertisement that's
akin to the genre. Maybe she's watching true beauty and
there's a you do a beauty ad that she finds
relevant that allows her to see that next episode. So
we make it super easy for our consumers to be
(13:09):
as empowered as our creators to pick on their own
time what they want to read and see. And I
think that's that patience over the last decade plus is
the reason why we feel gen Z is we're not
reaching them. They're reaching out to us for stories they
can't find anywhere.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
That's a good way to put it. Very much so
with with gen Z, what are the metrics for the
for the part of the platform that does have advertising
or some kind of sponsor message, what are the metrics
that matter? Is it just total clicks? Is it time spent?
And kind of curious about the intricacies of the business model.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, you know, it's a great topic for those who
are interested in this. A lot of the businesses that
I've been a part of, you know, you basically canbalize
your content business if you shove your ad business up.
You know, I think about my mobile game days where
I'm pushing gotcha for paid content at the expense of
time spent on an ad. This is the only business
I've ever seen where deep engagement helps both sides. Let
(14:13):
me explain. So first, who's looking at the content matters.
We like to think we have demographic goal because while
we got a lot of users, we have users spending
thirty to sixty minutes per day, and they're the attractive,
somewhat hard to reach users. This gen Zjen, Alpha and beyond.
By the way, plenty of fifty year olds like me
(14:33):
love our content too, because we have every genre a
creator could imagine on our platform. But then, in addition,
just as I mentioned, if Maddie or if I are
not feeling like I want to pay fifteen to seventy cents,
if I watch an AD and I get to see
the next episode without having to pay, we know that
our cohort data suggests once they read more because they
(14:54):
have more confidence that one of the next one hundred
and twenty thousand stories could be the one for them.
This is the only evergreen source of content I've been
a part of. If you think about every other business,
I've been a part of the content static. So you're
either monetizing in ads or you're monetizing and content, but
that content has a shelf life. Here, I have one
hundred and twenty thousand stories arriving every day from a
(15:15):
growing global set of creators, curated and benefited from AI
and technology. It's the reason why this growing at business,
and we were really not focused on our advertising business
until very recently here in North America. We're solely focused
on our creators and our consumers and content. It's why
I'm so hopeful that we can actually increase our household
(15:37):
penetration by offering relevant ads as an alternative for people
who may not want to pay to see the content
that that arrives on the platform.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
And when people in the pay model, is it a
monthly subscription or is it a pay as you read?
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah, so there are two ways, and we like to
make it super simple. We want Maddie to only have
to pay a micro payment of fifteen to seventy cents
for an episode that she wants to read she picks
by the way. You know, everyone likes this idea of
having access to a library of content. So this first thing,
these micropayments for the late breaking episode is called a
(16:15):
fast pass. And then we have another way, which is
called a daily pass. So if someone wants to see
a bunch of content where episodes are not being written
live every week anymore, because we have an immense library
of proven hits in our platform, hits from all parts
of the world. It turns out, by the way gen
Z likes seeing stories from unexpected sources and from cultures
(16:37):
and languages that are not their own. It's a wonderful
consumer trend that we benefit from. So these are the
two ways. The majority, though, I would say the majority
of our pay content is when Maddie has pre identified
it a great story and she knows that the next
one is coming out in a week or so, and
she wants to be the first to see it along
with anybody else. That fast pass is the very simple
(17:00):
way that we keep the experience fresh.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
That's great. To your point about just you know you
want to go, you want to take this avenue, Take
this avenue, Take this avenue. My mom, let me ask
you do you do you with You can't possibly host that,
you can't keep things on the platform in forever. Do
you kind of periodically call through and you know older
(17:25):
things maybe are not are not either not available or
not platformed as much. How do you manage the volume?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Well, we our origin, We are an independent public company
listed in the summer on Nasdaq, but for years, our
origin was out of this great company based in Korea
called Navor, and many of you may not have heard
of it, but Navor is the Google and Amazon Plus
of Korea, amazing technology. So because our heritage was tech,
(17:52):
our ability to manage large amounts of data is the
core capability of the company. We You know, I can't
claim to say that we will keep every piece of
content forever, but we certainly have the capability of bringing
back content that has been serialized for years. So one
of the things I wanted to mention is if a
(18:12):
creator has a great story, this vertical scrolling format means
that on a weekly basis, they're seeing episodes We've seen
hit stories span over a decade of life with i'ming new,
fresh episodes hitting every week. Because by serializing, you continue
the journey of the storyline versus a static piece of content,
(18:36):
which has a shelf life that is defined by the
user experience. And that's why we always try to extend
the life of the content we have, because we know
that it can be serialized or brought back as one
of these great film releases that I've mentioned, and so
we again, we have a patient headset and we're so
(18:56):
data driven that we know that stories don't die easily.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I want to talk about a bit an exciting film
project that you all have coming up, but I want
to ask you a question. I think a lot of
people are probably thinking, who owns the copyright the creator webtune?
Do you share it?
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah? We want our creators to feel like they own
their content, but at the same time, we want to
share and enable their success so much. You know, when
a young creator is writing in a language and doesn't
have the resources to know how to present it across
the world to a global audience in multiple formats and
multiple languages, that's where we like to think.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Are you do bring a lot to the table? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
And so as a result, generally, when a creator has
a voice that's clearly being heard, we convert them to
what's called a professional creator and we voluntarily enter in
agreement where we generally have distribution rights in our platform,
but we want them to own their content so that
if they can be a great Netflix film release, that
(19:56):
we can do it with them. And you know, we
have relationships. We want to article that was recently written
claimed that we may have been the source of over
half of a major streamer's film releases in a country,
and you know I can already tell you that, and
we're going to talk about it increasingly in North America.
I think twenty twenty five is going to be the
year where, now that you know that we're the source
(20:19):
of these stories, you're going to see more and more
of our great platform stories arrive as live action films,
either on TV or on the big screen. One of
which we're going to talk about for the first.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Time, got a pretty cool partner lined up in Margo
Roby and her Lucky Chap Productions is developing a property.
Tell us about it.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, we're excited as a feature film. I mean, listen,
I want to make sure we're clear. We're excited about
all the live action films that are going to come
out in the next few months. But one that's particularly
interesting is stack Town. Stacktown started as a horror webcomics
story had over eighteen million views. It's the story of
three protagonists that arrive in Stacktown, and you'll have to
(21:00):
watch it to see the rest. Read it on our platform.
But partnering with Lucky Chap, Margo Roby's production company and
their notable success with Barbie.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
And the other little movie we heard about last year.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah, I think it goes to show that our stories
can live in any format, and it goes to show
that our creators have the ability not just to be
very successful in our platform, but that we're really aligned
to that creator's success now as a live action release.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I gotta believe. I just still can't get over this
creator database. I gotta believe every literary agent in Hollywood,
the smart ones are calling through your platform on a
daily I wish.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I think our almost maniacal focus on our platform, more
and more creators, more and more consumers, more and more content,
has meant that the upside I think we see in
advertising and the upside and crossover ips just what we
call these books that we're enabling, these films, these video
games and merch we're just getting going. In fact, in
(22:04):
North America, our web team Watpad Studio is really only
less than two years old. We have a great studio
called Studio en based in Asia that has been further along,
which is why so many more consumers in Asia know
about the films that originate on our platform. I think
it's an exciting time, because I would love, you know,
(22:24):
in the next few years for every literary agent or
anybody else to be scrolling with us through our stories
because you know, we have proven data around these digital
storylines that we know resonate and we know who loves
them across the globe. So I'm very hopeful that we'll
have a bigger presence outside of our platform.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Do you ever if something is really strong and has
a has a you know, volume, do you ever create
like dedicated ebooks around because that would seem like you
could do that pretty easily.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, we're just beginning to explore it. You know, we
now have as reported, over five hundred million dollars of
capital in the bank and going public in the last
couple of courses, we generate positive operating cash flow, so.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Your phone is going to ring so much.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Well, we finally have that balan shaping that number out
there to be able to consider in a very careful
prudent way, using our own capital to speed up adoption.
The good news for US is I think this organic
adoption here in North America and in Europe where we're
just getting going, is happening without heavy investment. But I
certainly am interested in finding interesting creative ways to speed
(23:32):
up how creators can present more stories to consumers here.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
And very little, very little off you know what you'd
call off air marketing. I mean, it's been such a
word of mouth business. It seems like are there markets
or regions where you do any kind of advertising or
marketing push?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Well, in North America, we've just begun to partner with
other great companies. So for example, one that I thought
was interesting is we partnered with a company called Duelingo,
who shares this great global gen z engaged audience in
a very different way. I mean, these are folks interested
in learning about new cultures and languages, and we partnered
(24:08):
with their duo of their iconic owl. And what I
loved about it is we created new content. We created
a series of new stories on our platform in collaboration
with Duelingo. We saw over seven million views of this content.
It was a very authentic way for us to leverage
the fact that we have the same engaged audience that
(24:28):
they do. But instead of it being you know, a
paid marketing deal only, it was more authentically about creating
content that people were enjoying. You're going to see us
do more and more of that. We recently did a
deal with Discord that I thought was also similar and
that we share growth amongst this attractive young audience who
(24:49):
want to be picking content on their own terms and
so doing deals like that, or frankly seeing movies that
you didn't realize from a fandom standpoint came from us,
and you're curious about what else did that creator write,
what other permutation of story occurred. I think that's a
great way to or more organically drive adoption amongst we
(25:12):
only have like sub five percent household penetration. In other
countries we're fifty percent. So the largest market here is
the market with the greatest growth opportunity for us. So
you may see us, as I mentioned, using very prudently
some of our balance sheet to speed up what has
been largely organic in our spend on marketing.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Are you in the market for you know, additional content assets,
production capabilities, or other forms of you know, creative elements
that could come into it.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
We are, I mean, the company has a history of
very prudently using acquisition as a way to One of
the great examples is our webcomic platform in Japan. Is
last quarter was the number one consumer app in Japan,
including mobile games. It's called Lii, manga and pan. But
it's our business and it was you know, we call
it the rocket ship business. It was built off of
(26:05):
an acquisition we made of a company called Ebooks Japan,
so that was the launch pad business. So there are
examples geographically or maybe to complement our existing capability where
we're not going to be shy. Having public currency as
a newly listed public company, I think gives us another
tool to be able to consider acquisition. But at the
(26:27):
same time, you know, in our S one and when
I talked to our investors, we haven't talked about inorganic
M and A as being required for our growth. It's
very much opportunistic.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
You don't need to go acquire market share, you.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
But we're very open to it and have a pretty
good history in doing it.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
David, before you can't, I know you've worked in various
pockets of media, but you've also worked for companies like
best Buy and David helped bring us the Impossible Burger.
What does your back in public companies and companies that
have worked in very different retail, you know, different sectors
different from media and entertainment. How does that inform your
(27:08):
leadership of Webtune, which is a very innovative company.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
That's a hard question answer. I think the oddity in
my background is there's only been one common theme, which
is I tend to enjoy working on companies where the
consumer is looking for something different and technology is finally
enabling it. So in the past it's been large companies
like turning around best Buy or del Monti or Zinga.
More recently, startups like you know, launching a plant based
(27:35):
burger at Impossible Foods. What I love about web Tune
is that it's a business that I feel is a
combination of consumers wanting great stories globally. It's using AI
to promote human creativity, not talking about the darkness of
it replacing humans. And I feel good that my gen
Z kids are reading it, you know, like having them
(27:57):
feel like they could be an author and a creator
and having them pick content that I think is appropriate
for them to choose and read and engage and talk
about it. For me, I hope it's the last job
I ever have. We'll see. I came out of public
company retirement. Like I said, I would not work for
another public company five years ago when I was launching
the Impossible Burger and here I am. So for me,
(28:19):
this is special. This is a different kind of company.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Don't go anywhere. We'll hear next from Brandon Chen, a
top creator of webtoons. After this break, and we're back
with my conversation with Brandon Chen. He's a prolific creator
of webtoons and digital novels. He's known for popular series
(28:43):
such as Just a Goblin, among many others. He's based
in New York, but his work travels the world, and yes,
he has his eye on growth through trans media. As
he explains, I will just start at the beginning, Brandon,
how did you get into becoming a creator for web tunes?
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Yeah, so I started off as a novelist when I
was from the ages of fourteen. I published my first
novel from fourteen to seventeen, and then I continued doing
novels until I was in my early twenties. I think
at the time it was really hard for me to
(29:23):
do what I really wanted, which was Japanese manga. I'd
been obsessed with mangas ever since I was a kid,
and that was not really a medium that was possible
in the United States.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
And so how I fell into the web tune space.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Was you know, I read web tunes actually when I
was in high school, and I knew about the medium.
At the time, it was a very Korean dominated medium,
not as many creators here in the US. But over time,
obviously that's changed. And I won a competition in Japan
or had a very viral submission that's was actually for
(30:00):
Japanese manga. But then I got a web tune publisher
that gave me a serialization deal out of that competition,
and from that publisher, then web Tune saw that project
and wanted to receive a pitch or two and then
from there I started just a Goblin and samay No
(30:22):
tourre at Webtune and then you know, that's obviously ballooned
into a much bigger partnership beyond that. But yeah, that's
how I got started. It started off with a love
for Japanese manga and then pivoted over into web tunes.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Amazing. So wait, now at fourteen were were you publishing
your novels online? How did you how did you publish initially?
Do that initial publication?
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Yeah, so when I was fourteen years old was when
I started the novel. So I was just publishing chapters
kind of like in a web normal web novel format
on Whatpad, which at the time had a lot of.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Different stories on there.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
And you know, I had like I was like fourteen,
I got like one hundred thousand reads and I was like,
this is the best day of my life. And then,
you know, obviously I took that and that the reader
feedback and packaged into a novel which was distributed on
on Amazon for ebook and print, and then I could
just kind of continued that that process of producing novels,
(31:21):
learning how to storytell along the way, and then eventually,
like again, pivoted over into more of a visual storytelling
space after I had a project in Western Comics which
taught me how to work collaboratively, collaboratively with with artists,
and then you know, the rest is is history.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Well, I mean that's right there. There's a lot. You're
very industrious teenager right from the get go. What what
is it? Would you say? What is the what is
the sort of classic characteristic of a web tune something
published in that format? What makes it different from a
novel or a graph or a manga or you know,
(32:00):
a comic book.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Yeah, I think like a key difference is definitely like
in terms of pacing. But if I just talk about
the format for a second, like web tune is a
medium that is again very very modern because it is
optimized for the digital format, particularly your phone, so you know,
it's better to read it on your phone than it
is on your computer. But and that's because it has
(32:25):
this kind of vertical scroll format where you know, you're
kind of very active where you're scrolling through the story
as you're reading. I kind of like to think of
it as like watching still TV and you're riding a
bike and if the more you ride the bike, the
more the TV moves sort of and that's kind of
like you know, using your finger to make the web
tune move. But yeah, it's vertical scroll, pretty bite sized chapters,
(32:51):
you know, fifty to sixty panels on average, and it's colored,
which is very different from Japanese manga, which has traditionally
been uh, you know, black and white. And the stories
on there are quite diverse in the types of content
that you can tell for the different genres out there.
So yeah, it's a pretty it's a pretty new medium.
(33:13):
There's a lot of different things that make it different
from novels and TV and all that kind of stuff,
and a lot of it is you know, the serialized
format obviously, and also you know the pacing as well.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
And do you do your own illustrations? Do you do
your own graphics? No?
Speaker 3 (33:30):
So I'm a writer and a producer.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
So you know, my kind of role in this space
is that I come up with a idea in the
shower and I got a web Tune and I say,
you know, I build a pitch essentially, and I say like, hey,
like and this comes from my background in consulting, is
that I can make pretty PowerPoint decks. Hey, I have
(33:53):
this great idea. You know, would you be willing to
partner on this? And you know, Webtune says yes or no,
and I still you know if they say yes. You know,
I staff those teams with artists. You know, usually it's
a lead artist, and there's also you know, assistance that
help them, like backgrounds, coloring, all that kind of stuff.
And then you know, I'm involved like kind of every
at every step of the production, So storyboards, in game coloring, lettering,
(34:18):
I'm kind of art directing at those different phases as
well as writing the story. And then you know, I
have a little bit of a social media presence, so
I help market the story as well. But yeah, that's
kind of my my role in the different stories, and
we we work on somewhere between five to ten web
comics that are serialized, which is pretty exciting and they're
(34:39):
quite different. So my brain is getting tugged in all
sorts of ways. But I also think about the accessibility
at a transmedia level, like, you know, would this work
well as a film, would this work well as a
TV show and animation? Could I see this franchising beyond
just just web tunes? And that's that's all strategic stuff
that I think about. At the concepting level.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
How do you know when something is really resonating with
an audience.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
What's really great again about this the webtoone platform is
that you can see that kind of sentiment real time.
You know, there's a lot of different indicators that can
indicate how a series is performing. They have like likes,
they have comments, and you can see those comments in
real time. I can press publish and then within the
next hour it's like you can see if people love
(35:26):
it or they hate it, right, And obviously the community
is really really nice, so you know, it's it's quite
fortunate that you know, they're well receiving of a lot
of the different stories that we tell. But I think
like that's the thing about serialized format that's really or
digital serialized format that's really interesting, is like you know,
you release each week and you get that feedback immediately,
(35:49):
versus like, you know, as someone who did worked in novels,
it's like I spent a whole year in darkness pretty
much without knowing how it's gonna work, and then you
press publish and you know, you hope it works out.
Same with like film TV. People spend years on these
things and they have no idea what people are going
to say, and getting that feedback has been really great.
And then also like you know, let's say a reader says,
(36:10):
I really like this character because of XYZ reason that
actually sometimes gets me thinking if I didn't have original
plans for that character, like, oh, maybe there's a way,
you know, people like this character more than I anticipated,
maybe that can inform how I progress the story, like
in the future of that kind of stuff. So that's been,
you know, again a benefit and something I really like
(36:32):
about the serialized websine format, And I think it can
be quite motivating, I think, because I think, you know,
working in darkness for so long, the only thing motivating.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
You is yourself.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
But the readers, the readers can be the most motivating
in my opinion, way more motivating than I can hide
myself up in the mirror, I think.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And what do you find that you have readership around
the world? Do you find is it concentrated in in
like the US and Asia or you really feel like
you you are getting feedback from all over the world.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
I think there's I do have readers that definitely follow
me from all over the worlds. I think the webtern
Us platform that we primarily work with a lot of them,
A lot of the readers are from the US, so.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
I'm definitely what more well known in the US.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
I think, you know, my goals on a broader level
are to you know, be more international. So obviously you
know the stories, and that's all stuff that I think about,
you know, in terms of trans media, and also like
when I'm creating concepts, it's like, how can I make
sure that this is a story that can resonate hopefully
on the international level, like if it were to be
(37:39):
localized to Japan or Korea because that's that's also where
there's a lot of web web tune readers and consumption
are are in those countries. So that's all stuff that
I think about and obviously is a part of the strategy.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
What are the benefits of this platform form for a
young creator who does not have a following, is just
starting out, that has a story that really want to
tell in this medium?
Speaker 4 (38:02):
Well, I think through serialized storytelling it's a great way
to learn how to storytell. I think when I was younger,
you know, it was all about there was so much
time spent planning. And this is the thing I see
a lot about a lot of new creators. It's like
there's so much time spent planning and being paralyzed with
wanting to create the biggest story, the next one piece
(38:23):
or Harry Potter, when ultimately the best way to learn
how to storytell is by releasing things. And I think
that webtoon as a format and any sort of story,
the serialized storytelling medium allows for you to learn because
it forces you to do something, It forces you to release,
It forces you to put something out chapter one and
(38:46):
then and then you get some readers on the platform
and they want chapter two, and you have to give
them that.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
So I think there's a lot.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
Of learning as a as an early creator that you
can get from, uh from working kind of in this
sea your last format. And again, webtune Canvas has a
really accessible what's it called, platform for publishing for newer creators.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
I think so yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
I think like I didn't know about canvas at the time,
and I was fourteen, and I didn't know how to
work with artists or how any of that stuff worked.
But if I could go back, I would say, like
it would be really cool to test my hand earlier
on to create one shots or create like a like
a short series that could teach me more about the
(39:31):
production process earlier on.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Interesting. Well, Brandon, I'm so grateful for you to take
the time to talk me through this and my kind
of rudimentary questions here. Anything that I didn't ask you,
anything that's significant about the storytelling opportunity, the business opportunity
of web tunes that you'd like to add.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
I think, you know, webtune in the format is a
great way for a lot of creators to tell a
amalgam of different stories, like there's a there's really U
Sky's the limit. I think it's like one of the
best ways if you are a creator that wants to
go eventually transmedia. I think webtune is a great testing
(40:12):
ground for a lot of concepts. Like you know, it's
it's it's cheaper to create a webtune comic than it
is to try and fund a full on Marvel television show, right,
So I think like it's a great way to learn
how to storytell, it's a great way to to build
IP and uh, you know, if that that's a goal
of any creator, I think, like you know, it's something
(40:34):
that people should be looking at.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Thanks for listening. Please be sure to leave us a
review at Apple Podcast or Amazon Music. We love to
hear from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and
sign up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and
don't forget to tune in next week for another episode
of Strictly Business.
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcasts featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment Today.
My guests are movers and shakers in the world of webtuns.
What is a webtoon? You ask, well, keep listening, But
in Hollywood shorthand, it's like a graphic novel meets a
(00:27):
blog scroll meets a soap opera. David J. Lee is
chief operating Officer and chief financial Officer of Webtoon Entertainment.
The Los Angeles based company is a big force in
this growing digital storytelling medium that got its start about
a decade ago in South Korea. My conversation with Lee
(00:49):
was held January eighth as part of Variety's annual Entertainment
Summit at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas. A
week later, I got on a zoom with the top
webtune creator Brandon Chen to get his perspective on this
cutting edge new format. My conversation with Webtoon Entertainments David
(01:09):
jay Lee is coming up right after this break, and
we're back with a conversation from cees with Webtoon Entertainments.
David jay Lee, let's start a little bit and just
(01:30):
unpack exactly what a webtune is. The best sort of
the best shorthand description. Hollywood always loves it's this meets
this plus this, But the best sort of shorthand description
of what an actual web tune is is sort of
a mix between a blog and a manga. That might
(01:50):
be a little oversimplified, But David, if we could start
just by really sort of sketching out what when people
go to webtoon users online, because it's a digital platform
in terms of the core of the of the business
and the storytelling, when somebody goes to a find a webtune,
what user experience is that?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Yeah, it's a great question. And for those in the
audience who may not have heard of webtune, I have
the feeling you may have seen a great live action
film and didn't realize it came from us. And if
you have friends and family who are in our core target,
which is the gen Z target, I know that they're
familiar with us. Let me explain what the company is,
but then explain what the experience is. So Webtune is
(02:33):
a company, is global. We've got one hundred and seventy
million monthly active users, but We have twenty four million
creators who are creating over one hundred and twenty thousand
stories every day right new there for the taking by
our gen Z consumers, and the experience is truly digital
and mobile, and it spans way beyond one genre. It's
(02:54):
more than manga. It's any genre you can imagine. Imagine
a gen Z consumer in their palm of their hand
on a mobile device, with a flick of their fingers,
can scroll and in a fraction of a moment see
just enough imagery a few words to tell them where
a story is going. And at the same time, these
consumers are spending once they find their great story, thirty
(03:15):
to sixteen minutes a day reading either a web novel
or what we call a webcomic or a web tune.
For me, having started in the advertising business, it reminds
me of a incredible next generation of a digital storyboard,
which is why we love the one point three billion
and reported revenue we generate on our platform. But we
(03:36):
love the consumers get to see these stories as rich
film adaptations on Netflix or Amazon Prime where you saw
one that came out recently after Thanksgiving on TB And
so we're a great untold story. People don't realize they've
seen our stories. And you know, I'd love to unpack
a little bit about what we're all about here.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
Absolutely yeah, I think. I mean, you had the audience
at twenty four million. That is an astounding number. How
do you even Before we talk about sort of adapting
into other media, I want to talk just the mechanics
of sort of how it works. It's user generated, so
people can upload their they upload their imagery, they upload Now,
(04:18):
in my understanding of it, it's largely kind of in
you know, comp graphic form, comic book form. But are
you finding now people are uploading video as well with
their with their web tunes?
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Well what they're they're starting to upload if you think
about it, these twenty four million creators, the vast majority
have full time jobs. You know. A great example is
a young woman named Rachel Smythe who was a brilliant
graphic designer who thought she might have a story to
tell in New Zealand and she can come to our site.
She did. It's called Canvas. We've worked really hard as
(04:49):
a tech and an AI company to make it easy
for anyone who thinks they might have a story that
someone wants to see to create that story, either as
a web novel or or if they have a sense
of imagery, what we call a webcomic. And so these
are if you think about our product, just like you
can imagine going through a digital storyboard. You can scroll
(05:12):
through vertically this unique format and see where these stories
are going. In the case of Rachel, she like many
of our twenty four million creators, didn't realize that her
story would allow her to be a global creator. She
is a New York Times bestselling author in print, which
we helped her enable. And we may be the only
company that has shared two point eight billion dollars as
(05:35):
a core function of our business model with creators. That's
why we have so many, because we're truly aligned to
the fact that consumers want new stories, they want stories
from unexpected global sources, and entertainment companies want proven, validated
with market signal hits that come from places like us
for them to turn into great pieces of film or
(05:57):
merchandise or games. So that's the reason why I think
we have this unique ecosystem of a global consumption on
our platform, these one hundred and seventy million monthly active users,
a format that allows anybody to be able to see
in a fraction of a second where a story is going,
and a d risked profile for an evergreen source of stories,
I hope increasingly for the media industry, which we're going
(06:20):
to talk about more today.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I mean, you know, there's just no shortage of interest.
You know, from the beginnings of Hollywood to today. The
story the kernel. It starts with the story. It's a cliche,
it starts on the page, but it's it starts with
the story. And what's interesting in the modern age is
that so many people are empowered as storytellers. I think
(06:44):
in the past people felt like, well, I'm not a
Hollywood screenwriter. I'm not, you know, but this is like
a forum like so many other social media platforms are.
But it's such a specific forum. Let me ask us
again a few more questions about the mechanics of the
core web tune business. Does your company do you curate
some of these? Do you see when things start to
(07:05):
bubble up you curate them and help kind of recommend
them or is it really.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, I think they're think of the experiences. We're very
much empowering creators, as you mentioned, to be able to
present the story in a way that everyone can consume.
So a bunch of our technology, for example here in
the US we call it canvas, allows a great amateur
creator to see if somebody might love their story as
a webcomic or on our wapat platform or web novel.
(07:32):
But then with one hundred and over one hundred and
twenty thousand stories arriving every single day, a lot of
our AI technology is to make sure that as a consumer,
these gen Z consumers, they want an unexpected story, but
they have to find it. So having AI based personalization
engines to allow we call her Mattie as our target consumer.
You know, she's maybe just out of college, or maybe
(07:54):
she's getting a cup of coffee, and Mattie loves the
story that she's reading. But we know so much about
what she loves that presenting her the ability to see
the next story is a big part of our underlying technology.
And then there's a large amount of this also which
is geared around ensuring that we protect both the creator
and the consumer to ensure that the content is safe.
(08:18):
But also we all as content generations generators, fight piracy.
So a large amount of our tech is to make
this ecosystem healthy and because we're global, that's required us
to be a tech company at origin, which we were
bored out of, a global tech company, but a media
and entertainment company in reality as now that we're generating.
(08:38):
We have over nine hundred adaptations of stories outside our platform,
one hundred of which are rich film releases in TV
and movies. You know, two of Netflix's all time top
ten projects ever came from us, right, what are those titles? Yes,
so all of Us are Dead was one of them.
And Through My Window, which was an unex affected web
(09:00):
novel that came out of the Spanish and language creators,
was amazing. But you know, every quarter this happens, right,
Love Me, Love Me in Italy, you know, seeking me
votes from Spain. We talked about last quarter Sideline, the
Quarterback and Me. The day after Thanksgiving here in the
US was a top five hit on two B which
start no a back this great social media star. So
(09:23):
more and more, I think the world is waking up
to the fact that people love a good story, and
they love it in all formats on our platform, as
a webcomic or a web novel, but certainly as a
rich film release, a live action release on either TV
or on the big screen.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
How do you with over one hundred thousand stories coming in?
Did you say every day?
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Every day?
Speaker 1 (09:44):
I can't even imagine, you know, the ranks of studio
executives that it would take to process that. How do
you deal with content moderation? I got to believe that
not every one of those people are good citizens. And
you know, maybe there's some stuff that you don't want
on the platform. Do you reserve the right to say, hey,
this isn't right for web tune?
Speaker 2 (10:02):
I mean, this is where our technology comes into play.
I used to be in businesses in mobile gaming and
other consumer businesses where we were relying on a lot
of hard work by a lot of humans. But while
we have that, we have the benefit of cutting edge
AI technology our own, but we're very happy to partner
with whoever has the best, and we like to think
(10:23):
that we provide a real advantage for creators on piracy
and consumers on safety. But a large part of it
is also market signal. You know, when you have one
hundred and seventy million monthly active users across multiple languages
across the globe, and they are so protective of the
community that we have, they're a big part of our
warning system as well. And you know, we can talk
(10:44):
about all the policies, the technology. We like to think
we are cutting edge here, but I think the core
is what's differentiating is the technology we have and the
community base we have and the track record. You know,
Protecting creators and consumers has been our story since its origin,
and it's taken us over ten years to arrive as
now a public company at scale. But now that we are,
(11:08):
we can have these one hundred and twenty thousand stories
that we think are readable and safer consumers arrive every day.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I could imagine that that with that kind of volume,
you'd have to have an AI tool, you would have
to have something so you have certain red flags that
they're looking for. Not to hammer on this, but you know,
content moderation is a big subject for us. Let's talk
about so how does it work with the creators and
the business model. The more people read, the more it's
(11:37):
basically a revenue share.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Yeah, so we share in the success of amateur creators
as they become superstars. And there are so many examples
of folks who didn't realize that they had a voice
that deserve to be heard. Our model, while simple, is
really hard. You know, it is difficult for a company
to do what we've done because this to twenty million
(12:00):
dollars we've shared means that we're in it with them.
And from a consumer standpoint, you know, we don't force
heavy subscriptions. You know, Maddie as our gen Z target consumer.
By the way, over seventy percent of our consumers in
North America say they can't find the stories they find
anywhere else. Same percent says that their experience on our
platform is more fun than great companies like Roadblocks and TikTok.
(12:23):
And the reason why that's true is Maddie can serve
her as long as she wants, and when she finds
a story, it feels like her discovery, a bit like
discovering a real or a video that she feels no
one else has seen. She only pays fifteen to seventy
cents to see the latest breaking episode of the story
that she picked, and we are patient. We let our
(12:45):
Maddie's take all the time they want to find the
story they want, and she doesn't have to always pay.
She can watch a video, maybe it's an advertisement that's
akin to the genre. Maybe she's watching true beauty and
there's a you do a beauty ad that she finds
relevant that allows her to see that next episode. So
we make it super easy for our consumers to be
(13:09):
as empowered as our creators to pick on their own
time what they want to read and see. And I
think that's that patience over the last decade plus is
the reason why we feel gen Z is we're not
reaching them. They're reaching out to us for stories they
can't find anywhere.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
That's a good way to put it. Very much so
with with gen Z, what are the metrics for the
for the part of the platform that does have advertising
or some kind of sponsor message, what are the metrics
that matter? Is it just total clicks? Is it time spent?
And kind of curious about the intricacies of the business model.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, you know, it's a great topic for those who
are interested in this. A lot of the businesses that
I've been a part of, you know, you basically canbalize
your content business if you shove your ad business up.
You know, I think about my mobile game days where
I'm pushing gotcha for paid content at the expense of
time spent on an ad. This is the only business
I've ever seen where deep engagement helps both sides. Let
(14:13):
me explain. So first, who's looking at the content matters.
We like to think we have demographic goal because while
we got a lot of users, we have users spending
thirty to sixty minutes per day, and they're the attractive,
somewhat hard to reach users. This gen Zjen, Alpha and beyond.
By the way, plenty of fifty year olds like me
(14:33):
love our content too, because we have every genre a
creator could imagine on our platform. But then, in addition,
just as I mentioned, if Maddie or if I are
not feeling like I want to pay fifteen to seventy cents,
if I watch an AD and I get to see
the next episode without having to pay, we know that
our cohort data suggests once they read more because they
(14:54):
have more confidence that one of the next one hundred
and twenty thousand stories could be the one for them.
This is the only evergreen source of content I've been
a part of. If you think about every other business,
I've been a part of the content static. So you're
either monetizing in ads or you're monetizing and content, but
that content has a shelf life. Here, I have one
hundred and twenty thousand stories arriving every day from a
(15:15):
growing global set of creators, curated and benefited from AI
and technology. It's the reason why this growing at business,
and we were really not focused on our advertising business
until very recently here in North America. We're solely focused
on our creators and our consumers and content. It's why
I'm so hopeful that we can actually increase our household
(15:37):
penetration by offering relevant ads as an alternative for people
who may not want to pay to see the content
that that arrives on the platform.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
And when people in the pay model, is it a
monthly subscription or is it a pay as you read?
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah, so there are two ways, and we like to
make it super simple. We want Maddie to only have
to pay a micro payment of fifteen to seventy cents
for an episode that she wants to read she picks
by the way. You know, everyone likes this idea of
having access to a library of content. So this first thing,
these micropayments for the late breaking episode is called a
(16:15):
fast pass. And then we have another way, which is
called a daily pass. So if someone wants to see
a bunch of content where episodes are not being written
live every week anymore, because we have an immense library
of proven hits in our platform, hits from all parts
of the world. It turns out, by the way gen
Z likes seeing stories from unexpected sources and from cultures
(16:37):
and languages that are not their own. It's a wonderful
consumer trend that we benefit from. So these are the
two ways. The majority, though, I would say the majority
of our pay content is when Maddie has pre identified
it a great story and she knows that the next
one is coming out in a week or so, and
she wants to be the first to see it along
with anybody else. That fast pass is the very simple
(17:00):
way that we keep the experience fresh.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
That's great. To your point about just you know you
want to go, you want to take this avenue, Take
this avenue, Take this avenue. My mom, let me ask
you do you do you with You can't possibly host that,
you can't keep things on the platform in forever. Do
you kind of periodically call through and you know older
(17:25):
things maybe are not are not either not available or
not platformed as much. How do you manage the volume?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
Well, we our origin, We are an independent public company
listed in the summer on Nasdaq, but for years, our
origin was out of this great company based in Korea
called Navor, and many of you may not have heard
of it, but Navor is the Google and Amazon Plus
of Korea, amazing technology. So because our heritage was tech,
(17:52):
our ability to manage large amounts of data is the
core capability of the company. We You know, I can't
claim to say that we will keep every piece of
content forever, but we certainly have the capability of bringing
back content that has been serialized for years. So one
of the things I wanted to mention is if a
(18:12):
creator has a great story, this vertical scrolling format means
that on a weekly basis, they're seeing episodes We've seen
hit stories span over a decade of life with i'ming new,
fresh episodes hitting every week. Because by serializing, you continue
the journey of the storyline versus a static piece of content,
(18:36):
which has a shelf life that is defined by the
user experience. And that's why we always try to extend
the life of the content we have, because we know
that it can be serialized or brought back as one
of these great film releases that I've mentioned, and so
we again, we have a patient headset and we're so
(18:56):
data driven that we know that stories don't die easily.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I want to talk about a bit an exciting film
project that you all have coming up, but I want
to ask you a question. I think a lot of
people are probably thinking, who owns the copyright the creator webtune?
Do you share it?
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Yeah? We want our creators to feel like they own
their content, but at the same time, we want to
share and enable their success so much. You know, when
a young creator is writing in a language and doesn't
have the resources to know how to present it across
the world to a global audience in multiple formats and
multiple languages, that's where we like to think.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Are you do bring a lot to the table? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
And so as a result, generally, when a creator has
a voice that's clearly being heard, we convert them to
what's called a professional creator and we voluntarily enter in
agreement where we generally have distribution rights in our platform,
but we want them to own their content so that
if they can be a great Netflix film release, that
(19:56):
we can do it with them. And you know, we
have relationships. We want to article that was recently written
claimed that we may have been the source of over
half of a major streamer's film releases in a country,
and you know I can already tell you that, and
we're going to talk about it increasingly in North America.
I think twenty twenty five is going to be the
year where, now that you know that we're the source
(20:19):
of these stories, you're going to see more and more
of our great platform stories arrive as live action films,
either on TV or on the big screen. One of
which we're going to talk about for the first.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Time, got a pretty cool partner lined up in Margo
Roby and her Lucky Chap Productions is developing a property.
Tell us about it.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
Yeah, we're excited as a feature film. I mean, listen,
I want to make sure we're clear. We're excited about
all the live action films that are going to come
out in the next few months. But one that's particularly
interesting is stack Town. Stacktown started as a horror webcomics
story had over eighteen million views. It's the story of
three protagonists that arrive in Stacktown, and you'll have to
(21:00):
watch it to see the rest. Read it on our platform.
But partnering with Lucky Chap, Margo Roby's production company and
their notable success with Barbie.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
And the other little movie we heard about last year.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah, I think it goes to show that our stories
can live in any format, and it goes to show
that our creators have the ability not just to be
very successful in our platform, but that we're really aligned
to that creator's success now as a live action release.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
I gotta believe. I just still can't get over this
creator database. I gotta believe every literary agent in Hollywood,
the smart ones are calling through your platform on a
daily I wish.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
I think our almost maniacal focus on our platform, more
and more creators, more and more consumers, more and more content,
has meant that the upside I think we see in
advertising and the upside and crossover ips just what we
call these books that we're enabling, these films, these video
games and merch we're just getting going. In fact, in
(22:04):
North America, our web team Watpad Studio is really only
less than two years old. We have a great studio
called Studio en based in Asia that has been further along,
which is why so many more consumers in Asia know
about the films that originate on our platform. I think
it's an exciting time, because I would love, you know,
(22:24):
in the next few years for every literary agent or
anybody else to be scrolling with us through our stories
because you know, we have proven data around these digital
storylines that we know resonate and we know who loves
them across the globe. So I'm very hopeful that we'll
have a bigger presence outside of our platform.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Do you ever if something is really strong and has
a has a you know, volume, do you ever create
like dedicated ebooks around because that would seem like you
could do that pretty easily.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, we're just beginning to explore it. You know, we
now have as reported, over five hundred million dollars of
capital in the bank and going public in the last
couple of courses, we generate positive operating cash flow, so.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Your phone is going to ring so much.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Well, we finally have that balan shaping that number out
there to be able to consider in a very careful
prudent way, using our own capital to speed up adoption.
The good news for US is I think this organic
adoption here in North America and in Europe where we're
just getting going, is happening without heavy investment. But I
certainly am interested in finding interesting creative ways to speed
(23:32):
up how creators can present more stories to consumers here.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
And very little, very little off you know what you'd
call off air marketing. I mean, it's been such a
word of mouth business. It seems like are there markets
or regions where you do any kind of advertising or
marketing push?
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Well, in North America, we've just begun to partner with
other great companies. So for example, one that I thought
was interesting is we partnered with a company called Duelingo,
who shares this great global gen z engaged audience in
a very different way. I mean, these are folks interested
in learning about new cultures and languages, and we partnered
(24:08):
with their duo of their iconic owl. And what I
loved about it is we created new content. We created
a series of new stories on our platform in collaboration
with Duelingo. We saw over seven million views of this content.
It was a very authentic way for us to leverage
the fact that we have the same engaged audience that
(24:28):
they do. But instead of it being you know, a
paid marketing deal only, it was more authentically about creating
content that people were enjoying. You're going to see us
do more and more of that. We recently did a
deal with Discord that I thought was also similar and
that we share growth amongst this attractive young audience who
(24:49):
want to be picking content on their own terms and
so doing deals like that, or frankly seeing movies that
you didn't realize from a fandom standpoint came from us,
and you're curious about what else did that creator write,
what other permutation of story occurred. I think that's a
great way to or more organically drive adoption amongst we
(25:12):
only have like sub five percent household penetration. In other
countries we're fifty percent. So the largest market here is
the market with the greatest growth opportunity for us. So
you may see us, as I mentioned, using very prudently
some of our balance sheet to speed up what has
been largely organic in our spend on marketing.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
Are you in the market for you know, additional content assets,
production capabilities, or other forms of you know, creative elements
that could come into it.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
We are, I mean, the company has a history of
very prudently using acquisition as a way to One of
the great examples is our webcomic platform in Japan. Is
last quarter was the number one consumer app in Japan,
including mobile games. It's called Lii, manga and pan. But
it's our business and it was you know, we call
it the rocket ship business. It was built off of
(26:05):
an acquisition we made of a company called Ebooks Japan,
so that was the launch pad business. So there are
examples geographically or maybe to complement our existing capability where
we're not going to be shy. Having public currency as
a newly listed public company, I think gives us another
tool to be able to consider acquisition. But at the
(26:27):
same time, you know, in our S one and when
I talked to our investors, we haven't talked about inorganic
M and A as being required for our growth. It's
very much opportunistic.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
You don't need to go acquire market share, you.
Speaker 2 (26:41):
But we're very open to it and have a pretty
good history in doing it.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
David, before you can't, I know you've worked in various
pockets of media, but you've also worked for companies like
best Buy and David helped bring us the Impossible Burger.
What does your back in public companies and companies that
have worked in very different retail, you know, different sectors
different from media and entertainment. How does that inform your
(27:08):
leadership of Webtune, which is a very innovative company.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
That's a hard question answer. I think the oddity in
my background is there's only been one common theme, which
is I tend to enjoy working on companies where the
consumer is looking for something different and technology is finally
enabling it. So in the past it's been large companies
like turning around best Buy or del Monti or Zinga.
More recently, startups like you know, launching a plant based
(27:35):
burger at Impossible Foods. What I love about web Tune
is that it's a business that I feel is a
combination of consumers wanting great stories globally. It's using AI
to promote human creativity, not talking about the darkness of
it replacing humans. And I feel good that my gen
Z kids are reading it, you know, like having them
(27:57):
feel like they could be an author and a creator
and having them pick content that I think is appropriate
for them to choose and read and engage and talk
about it. For me, I hope it's the last job
I ever have. We'll see. I came out of public
company retirement. Like I said, I would not work for
another public company five years ago when I was launching
the Impossible Burger and here I am. So for me,
(28:19):
this is special. This is a different kind of company.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Don't go anywhere. We'll hear next from Brandon Chen, a
top creator of webtoons. After this break, and we're back
with my conversation with Brandon Chen. He's a prolific creator
of webtoons and digital novels. He's known for popular series
(28:43):
such as Just a Goblin, among many others. He's based
in New York, but his work travels the world, and yes,
he has his eye on growth through trans media. As
he explains, I will just start at the beginning, Brandon,
how did you get into becoming a creator for web tunes?
Speaker 4 (29:03):
Yeah, so I started off as a novelist when I
was from the ages of fourteen. I published my first
novel from fourteen to seventeen, and then I continued doing
novels until I was in my early twenties. I think
at the time it was really hard for me to
(29:23):
do what I really wanted, which was Japanese manga. I'd
been obsessed with mangas ever since I was a kid,
and that was not really a medium that was possible
in the United States.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
And so how I fell into the web tune space.
Speaker 4 (29:36):
Was you know, I read web tunes actually when I
was in high school, and I knew about the medium.
At the time, it was a very Korean dominated medium,
not as many creators here in the US. But over time,
obviously that's changed. And I won a competition in Japan
or had a very viral submission that's was actually for
(30:00):
Japanese manga. But then I got a web tune publisher
that gave me a serialization deal out of that competition,
and from that publisher, then web Tune saw that project
and wanted to receive a pitch or two and then
from there I started just a Goblin and samay No
(30:22):
tourre at Webtune and then you know, that's obviously ballooned
into a much bigger partnership beyond that. But yeah, that's
how I got started. It started off with a love
for Japanese manga and then pivoted over into web tunes.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
Amazing. So wait, now at fourteen were were you publishing
your novels online? How did you how did you publish initially?
Do that initial publication?
Speaker 4 (30:45):
Yeah, so when I was fourteen years old was when
I started the novel. So I was just publishing chapters
kind of like in a web normal web novel format
on Whatpad, which at the time had a lot of.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
Different stories on there.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
And you know, I had like I was like fourteen,
I got like one hundred thousand reads and I was like,
this is the best day of my life. And then,
you know, obviously I took that and that the reader
feedback and packaged into a novel which was distributed on
on Amazon for ebook and print, and then I could
just kind of continued that that process of producing novels,
(31:21):
learning how to storytell along the way, and then eventually,
like again, pivoted over into more of a visual storytelling
space after I had a project in Western Comics which
taught me how to work collaboratively, collaboratively with with artists,
and then you know, the rest is is history.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Well, I mean that's right there. There's a lot. You're
very industrious teenager right from the get go. What what
is it? Would you say? What is the what is
the sort of classic characteristic of a web tune something
published in that format? What makes it different from a
novel or a graph or a manga or you know,
(32:00):
a comic book.
Speaker 4 (32:02):
Yeah, I think like a key difference is definitely like
in terms of pacing. But if I just talk about
the format for a second, like web tune is a
medium that is again very very modern because it is
optimized for the digital format, particularly your phone, so you know,
it's better to read it on your phone than it
is on your computer. But and that's because it has
(32:25):
this kind of vertical scroll format where you know, you're
kind of very active where you're scrolling through the story
as you're reading. I kind of like to think of
it as like watching still TV and you're riding a
bike and if the more you ride the bike, the
more the TV moves sort of and that's kind of
like you know, using your finger to make the web
tune move. But yeah, it's vertical scroll, pretty bite sized chapters,
(32:51):
you know, fifty to sixty panels on average, and it's colored,
which is very different from Japanese manga, which has traditionally
been uh, you know, black and white. And the stories
on there are quite diverse in the types of content
that you can tell for the different genres out there.
So yeah, it's a pretty it's a pretty new medium.
(33:13):
There's a lot of different things that make it different
from novels and TV and all that kind of stuff,
and a lot of it is you know, the serialized
format obviously, and also you know the pacing as well.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
And do you do your own illustrations? Do you do
your own graphics? No?
Speaker 3 (33:30):
So I'm a writer and a producer.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
So you know, my kind of role in this space
is that I come up with a idea in the
shower and I got a web Tune and I say,
you know, I build a pitch essentially, and I say like, hey,
like and this comes from my background in consulting, is
that I can make pretty PowerPoint decks. Hey, I have
(33:53):
this great idea. You know, would you be willing to
partner on this? And you know, Webtune says yes or no,
and I still you know if they say yes. You know,
I staff those teams with artists. You know, usually it's
a lead artist, and there's also you know, assistance that
help them, like backgrounds, coloring, all that kind of stuff.
And then you know, I'm involved like kind of every
at every step of the production, So storyboards, in game coloring, lettering,
(34:18):
I'm kind of art directing at those different phases as
well as writing the story. And then you know, I
have a little bit of a social media presence, so
I help market the story as well. But yeah, that's
kind of my my role in the different stories, and
we we work on somewhere between five to ten web
comics that are serialized, which is pretty exciting and they're
(34:39):
quite different. So my brain is getting tugged in all
sorts of ways. But I also think about the accessibility
at a transmedia level, like, you know, would this work
well as a film, would this work well as a
TV show and animation? Could I see this franchising beyond
just just web tunes? And that's that's all strategic stuff
that I think about. At the concepting level.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
How do you know when something is really resonating with
an audience.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
What's really great again about this the webtoone platform is
that you can see that kind of sentiment real time.
You know, there's a lot of different indicators that can
indicate how a series is performing. They have like likes,
they have comments, and you can see those comments in
real time. I can press publish and then within the
next hour it's like you can see if people love
(35:26):
it or they hate it, right, And obviously the community
is really really nice, so you know, it's it's quite
fortunate that you know, they're well receiving of a lot
of the different stories that we tell. But I think
like that's the thing about serialized format that's really or
digital serialized format that's really interesting, is like you know,
you release each week and you get that feedback immediately,
(35:49):
versus like, you know, as someone who did worked in novels,
it's like I spent a whole year in darkness pretty
much without knowing how it's gonna work, and then you
press publish and you know, you hope it works out.
Same with like film TV. People spend years on these
things and they have no idea what people are going
to say, and getting that feedback has been really great.
And then also like you know, let's say a reader says,
(36:10):
I really like this character because of XYZ reason that
actually sometimes gets me thinking if I didn't have original
plans for that character, like, oh, maybe there's a way,
you know, people like this character more than I anticipated,
maybe that can inform how I progress the story, like
in the future of that kind of stuff. So that's been,
you know, again a benefit and something I really like
(36:32):
about the serialized websine format, And I think it can
be quite motivating, I think, because I think, you know,
working in darkness for so long, the only thing motivating.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
You is yourself.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
But the readers, the readers can be the most motivating
in my opinion, way more motivating than I can hide
myself up in the mirror, I think.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
And what do you find that you have readership around
the world? Do you find is it concentrated in in
like the US and Asia or you really feel like
you you are getting feedback from all over the world.
Speaker 4 (37:04):
I think there's I do have readers that definitely follow
me from all over the worlds. I think the webtern
Us platform that we primarily work with a lot of them,
A lot of the readers are from the US, so.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
I'm definitely what more well known in the US.
Speaker 4 (37:18):
I think, you know, my goals on a broader level
are to you know, be more international. So obviously you
know the stories, and that's all stuff that I think about,
you know, in terms of trans media, and also like
when I'm creating concepts, it's like, how can I make
sure that this is a story that can resonate hopefully
on the international level, like if it were to be
(37:39):
localized to Japan or Korea because that's that's also where
there's a lot of web web tune readers and consumption
are are in those countries. So that's all stuff that
I think about and obviously is a part of the strategy.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
What are the benefits of this platform form for a
young creator who does not have a following, is just
starting out, that has a story that really want to
tell in this medium?
Speaker 4 (38:02):
Well, I think through serialized storytelling it's a great way
to learn how to storytell. I think when I was younger,
you know, it was all about there was so much
time spent planning. And this is the thing I see
a lot about a lot of new creators. It's like
there's so much time spent planning and being paralyzed with
wanting to create the biggest story, the next one piece
(38:23):
or Harry Potter, when ultimately the best way to learn
how to storytell is by releasing things. And I think
that webtoon as a format and any sort of story,
the serialized storytelling medium allows for you to learn because
it forces you to do something, It forces you to release,
It forces you to put something out chapter one and
(38:46):
then and then you get some readers on the platform
and they want chapter two, and you have to give
them that.
Speaker 3 (38:52):
So I think there's a lot.
Speaker 4 (38:53):
Of learning as a as an early creator that you
can get from, uh from working kind of in this
sea your last format. And again, webtune Canvas has a
really accessible what's it called, platform for publishing for newer creators.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
I think so yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:10):
I think like I didn't know about canvas at the time,
and I was fourteen, and I didn't know how to
work with artists or how any of that stuff worked.
But if I could go back, I would say, like
it would be really cool to test my hand earlier
on to create one shots or create like a like
a short series that could teach me more about the
(39:31):
production process earlier on.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Interesting. Well, Brandon, I'm so grateful for you to take
the time to talk me through this and my kind
of rudimentary questions here. Anything that I didn't ask you,
anything that's significant about the storytelling opportunity, the business opportunity
of web tunes that you'd like to add.
Speaker 4 (39:51):
I think, you know, webtune in the format is a
great way for a lot of creators to tell a
amalgam of different stories, like there's a there's really U
Sky's the limit. I think it's like one of the
best ways if you are a creator that wants to
go eventually transmedia. I think webtune is a great testing
(40:12):
ground for a lot of concepts. Like you know, it's
it's it's cheaper to create a webtune comic than it
is to try and fund a full on Marvel television show, right,
So I think like it's a great way to learn
how to storytell, it's a great way to to build
IP and uh, you know, if that that's a goal
of any creator, I think, like you know, it's something
(40:34):
that people should be looking at.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
Thanks for listening. Please be sure to leave us a
review at Apple Podcast or Amazon Music. We love to
hear from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and
sign up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and
don't forget to tune in next week for another episode
of Strictly Business.
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