June 14, 2023 • 32 mins
Casey Bloys, the content leader of HBO and Max, engages in a wide-ranging discussion about HBO’s recent streak of pop culture hits, from “Succession” to “The Last of Us” to “The White Lotus” and more. Bloys also offers his view of the limits of AI and its use in entertainment, and he explains how HBO and Max can live together and separately under one streaming roof. Recorded June 7 at Variety’s TV FYC Fest held at the 1 Hotel in West Hollywood.
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My
guest is Casey Bloys, Chairman and CEO.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Of HBO and Max.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Casey is one of the most influential people in entertainment today.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And he is also one of the most unassuming.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
He has a hard and heavily scrutinized job, but he
is also unfailingly optimistic and always focused on what HBO
does best, make incredible shows. His programming team at HBO
has defied the odds and delivered a string of hits
of late from House of the Dragon, to The White Lotus,
(00:53):
to the Last of Us to Succession, Euphoria and Barry.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Bloys has also.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Been in the thick of the streaming wars as the
leader of content for Max, the fledgling streaming sibling of HBO.
The platform had a difficult birth as HBO Max in
May twenty twenty. It was re christened Max last month.
Max has had plenty of technical challenges, but on Bloy's
watch as content chief, it has fielded such top contenders
(01:21):
as Max and just like that the flight attendant, Love
and Death and more. Bloys addressed the HBO and Max
value propositions for consumers and many more topics during our
half hour conversation held on June seventh as part of
Variety's TV FYC Fest at the One Hotel in West Hollywood.
(01:43):
With the writer strike raging on, Bloys was gracious to
honor his long standing commitment to speak at our event
at a time when many executives are laying low. I
also appreciated Bloy's honesty in challenging my assessment of Succession
season one, as you'll hear, and for offering his candid
thoughts on AI and its use in entertainment. So get ready,
(02:06):
a wide ranging conversation about HBO and the media business
is coming up right after this break, and we're back
with HBO Chairman and CEO Casey Bloys. Let's address the
elephant in the room right now. This is a very
(02:28):
trying time for the creative community, given that there are
that there was a writer strike going on. There are
very difficult contract negotiations happening. We wish every single person
in that process, well, I don't want to be labor this,
but can you give us a sense like, how are
you all feeling right now at this moment as we're
(02:49):
at a you know, we're at a crossroads of sorts.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I mean, I'm probably not going to say anything no
body that hasn't been said already. As someone who works
with writers, works with talent, I would just like us
all as an industry to you know, to figure it
out and for everybody to feel valued and get back
to at least for me, developing and producing great TV.
(03:12):
So but it's going to you know, it's going to
take some time, and everybody's got to feel that they
that they got a deal that values them. So I
understand that, and I get it, and I hope it
doesn't take longer than it.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Has to me too. We are absolutely in agreement with that.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Well, Casey, we thank you very much for hanging in
because we you know, we know it's a touchy time
and we do appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Casey.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I was never so happy we put Casey on the
cover of Variety in February. I was never so happy
to have an executive on our cover. We had chased
this guy for years and he always said no, no,
I want to put it on the shows, and we finally,
we finally persuaded, And it was such a perfect timing
because it was just last of us came out, and
(04:00):
that one was I think a lot of us did
not see that coming. In terms of the we knew
it was HBO, we knew it was going to be quality,
But in terms of the emotional depth of that show
that must have been was the response and the execution
of what was you know, video game based ip did
(04:22):
the execution of the content and the response that it
got from the audience.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Did that surprise you? Was that a pleasant surprise to you?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
It didn't surprise me, because obviously I think all of
our shows are special, you know, but you never know,
you know, even if you think something is the greatest
thing you've ever seen, you never know until you put
it out in the world. So I was really happy
to see the response, and I was happy for Craig
and Neil, and it was it was nice to see
everybody recognized, the cast and crew and directors. It's just
(04:54):
it was It's what you want to see when you
work so hard on a show. God, Craig's been developing
that for several years and so to have it come
out and be received like that is a very nice feeling.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Absolutely, I did you sense in the early going, I mean,
for me as a viewer, not being very not being
familiar at all with the video game. For me as
a viewer, I did not expect the depth of the
relationship between Pedro, Pascal and Bella. I mean that that
was almost it almost became a buddy journey story. But
(05:30):
is certain that has many more chapters to go right now.
But was that something was that part of the show.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Was that something that you was up at?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
That is that is I didn't know the video game?
I'm not I don't play video games, so it makes
two of us. Yeah, so I am really not a
video game person at all. I obviously knew what it
was when Craig said this is what I want to do.
I I I learned about it, but I know that
relationship is key to the video game and key obviously
(06:00):
to the show, and the relationship that Pedro and Bella
brought to screen I think is really what really touched
a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Was there any in the early going of bringing Last
of Us to the screen? Was there a sense of
plotting along with the way the game evolved. It's such
a different type of material to adapt. It's not like
a novel or you know, it's a it's a more
open ended story on the on the game sete.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I'm just curious how you conceptionally attacked.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
So what's funny about it is that the success of it,
we got a lot of questions about, like, so, are
you going to do more video games? You know? Is this?
Does this mean?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Of course?
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Because like Lemmings, you know, yeah, and and I guess
the the lesson for me and my two cents, for
anybody who looks at it and says we got to
go develop a video game, the lesson for me was
not develop a video game and it'll be a hit.
The lesson for me is get in business with someone
(07:06):
like Craig and trust what they want to do. Craig.
The reason we did it is because after Chernobyl, we
had a great experience with Craig and we said to Craig,
what do you want to do next? And I know
from Chernobyl, I know when he sinks his teeth into something,
he becomes obsessed, which is what you want from a
from a creator. And I knew whatever he wanted to do.
(07:27):
It would be something special, and so he said, I
want to do Last of Us. And we were lucky
because then Neil, who created the video game, Neil Druckman,
Neil Truman, went along on that journey with Craig as well,
and he directed episodes and wrote episodes, so we were
doubly lucky to have him involved. But the lesson is
not develop video games. It is being business with people
(07:48):
that you trust and support them in what they want
to do and follow their instincts. I think anyway, that's
that's my two coming out of that. That's my two cents.
Is if another if another writer who we like and
admire says I've got to develop this video game. There's
(08:09):
nothing else I can do, There's nothing else that will
fit my brain but this video game, and I've got
to do it, I'd go okay, But I don't know
that I would and I had we haven't scoured video
game titles and said okay, you know, here's here's what
we should do.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
It was it was the story of last Story.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I mean, I will say I know it was. It
was Craig. And then obviously in my mind, I thought, well,
Craig is really into this, and and I was the
idea of and it was not a zombie show but
a post apocalyptic setting. I thought that could be really
interesting to see what Craig would do with that. So
(08:50):
I thought the combo could be interesting. But again the
lesson for me is following the creator, following the creators,
not necessarily starting with the I P and M doing that.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Did you do anything in any of the marketing or
any of the outreach or you know, kind of building
buzz for the show. Did you in any way target
the video game? Oh?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeahmunity, Yeah. Sony was very helpful, right.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Sony Pictures Television produce the series. It's based on a
PlayStation game, so.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
They were very helpful. Naughty Dog, which is Neil's company
that created the game, was very helpful in terms of
getting the work. It was a very getting the word
out to the Last of US fans and the video
game fans. The Last of US fan base is very active,
(09:38):
very supportive, so that was a nice That was a
nice benefit of doing the show.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
And from as I have learned from gamers that it
is that it is of all types of games that
would lend itself because it is such an emotional story
that is that.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
That did in that journey.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Their relationship, I think is what sets it apart from
other video game titles.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
I think, all right, well, I want to also ask
you have so many shows. We have an embarrassment of
riches here, but I have to ask you. I have
to ask you about succession.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I mean truly.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
First of all, I think the first victory there was
was really season one. There was a bit of a
slow build, but from about halfway through season one.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Although wait, let me just say one thing on that. Okay,
I just want to say one thing. I thought the
show was the show from the beginning. I think it
took some time for people to understand what it was doing.
But it was funny. I saw, you know, I follow
the reaction to the show in real time. So I'm
going back to the first season. But a lot of
(10:46):
people are like it finally found its voice in the
third episode. I'm like, third, that was used to take
shows three seasons to find their voice, you know, so,
but I think it was there from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
But okay, everything is accelerated these days. But what I
actually meant was just in terms of the reaction, the
show was absolutely there.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
From the from the very get go.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Of course, we all remember that opening image that will
never forget Logan Roy. We saw him as the most intimate,
but in terms of reaction and then from honestly, from
about halfway through season one, it did become in a way,
Last of Us also achieved this must see you getting
people to tune in on a getting me to tune
(11:29):
in on a Sunday night at nine, making sure don't
call me, don't everybody knows I'm you know, I'm watching
my show.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
That's rare. That's rare these days.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
I honestly think that is that is so rare these
days that it's fun. It's fun for people that love
their show so much. Do you know when did you
know that you were that you had touched that nerve
with succession? Obviously you knew the quality was there from.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I following the first season, it really did seem to
catch on. I remember when we did it. One of
the things when we we shot a pilot and you know,
remember there's no IP, you know, there's no video game
it's based on, and we purposely didn't go for you know,
(12:13):
Adam McKay was directing, so he had a lot of
people who would have come to work with him, but
we wanted I didn't want to push anybody to higher
stars or anything, just kind of like whoever you thought
the best actor was. So we were going out in
the world with a show that was not based on
IP and had no giant movie stars attached. So it
was I don't wanna say a tough sell because that's
(12:36):
not fair to the show, but the fact that it
was able to break through, But you know, it was
a pretty amazing thing. I think it's estimate to Jesse's
writing in the cast and mark mylot, but I would
say probably halfway through the season, when people kind of
understood what it was doing and the rhythms and the
(12:58):
mix of comedy and drama, that there was something special there.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
You know, I have to ask you, have you ever
heard from any of the Murdochs about the show.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I have not.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
You know, I've anecdotally heard you know, somebody whose cousin's
brother knows so and so, and you know, so I
have no idea. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
You haven't gotten any idio signed notes from Rupert.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I haven't nothing.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Well, I do know that Jesse Armstrong has absolutely been
clear that it is an amalgam of some characters. Although
there are definitely having covered the Murdocks for a long time,
there are definitely some and what I just we all
know because we work in the business. I mean there
are some types, some personality types among the corporate roles
(13:46):
that they get that they nail so so well.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Let me ask you so fast forwarding to the end,
I really think you all have shown incredible discipline in
not no spinoffs. There are any number of characters, you know,
leading characters, supporting characters that we would all want to
spend more time with. But I know you feel strongly
about well.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
I guess I would make the same I would use
this to make the same point I made about Craig
and the Last of Us. If Jesse said to me,
I have got to do a Tom and Greg spinoff,
I can't, you know, like I've just got to It's
what I I creatively, It's I can't get out of
(14:32):
my head and I have to do it.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
The title is there, the Disgusting.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Brothers, Yes, exactly. If Jesse wanted to do that, I
would follow his lead and say great. But he you know,
I think it was the right decision because there are
some I think there are some shows that naturally lead themselves,
a show like House the Dragon coming out of Game
of Thrones. You know, George's universe is so huge, I mean,
spans hundreds of years and many families, and there's battles
(14:57):
and civil wars and all of that stuff that kind
of lens itself more logically to spin offs or trying
again this one. I think it's it's obviously fun to
think about the the combinations, but if Jesse's not feeling it,
I'm not you know, I'm not going to go down
(15:19):
that road. If he's not feeling.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
It, I think, I hear you. I still think incredible discipline.
So many other places would have been you know, succession, Sydney, where.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Wherever it might go.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
When Jesse, I know you you talked about, you know, Jesse,
when Jesse came to tell you that he felt like
season four was the time to end, did you try
to persuade him or so?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I I kind of knew that we were that season four.
I knew about Logan, I knew that that was going
to happen, and so I think the sense was this
was probably it the only the only kind of advice
I gave to Jesse was like, just you know, whatever
you want to do is what we'll do. Just think
(16:06):
about it, because you do have this amazing cast, and
it's an amazing you know, it's lightning in a bob.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
It's quite a company.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Yeah, but so so just really really be sure that
it's time to go. And I also knew Jesse is
an incredibly thoughtful writer, and I knew if I he
would naturally kind of go through that process of do
I see anything here? Do I not see anything here?
And so I knew we would end up in the
(16:33):
right place regardless. So and I know he went back
and forth, and I think he wanted to make sure
that he wasn't leaving anything on the table. But I
trust that he fully felt that that was the right thing.
And I and as I said, when I saw the finale,
it was the only way that Succession could end. It
was to me, it was kind of a perfect ending.
(16:54):
So I think it was again, if you're following the
creator's lead, probably be a good place, a good good
place to go.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
That is the recurring theme.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And since Casey is literally one of the most successful
development people of the last.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Twenty five years. I think that follows listen to the
creed the writer exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Although you can give them notes, you can push them,
you can debate, but ultimately you've got to, you know,
follow their.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Leader, don't go anywhere. There's more from HBO leader Casey
Bloys coming up right after this break, and we're back
with more from HBO chairman and CEO Casey Bloys again
(17:45):
in the category of I have to ask you, so
much of what was going on with succession a little
close to real life for Warner Brothers, Discovery and all
of the different.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Pass to the entire media eCos.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Very much, very much so definitely not Warner Brothers Discover
being in a vacuum. But did that ever did you
all ever reflect on that, like, Wow, this is a
little bit of a mirror.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Now, probably been in't too meta if I thought about
it too much. But again, I think the real Jesse
and the writers do a ton of research about media.
So the reason that it plays feel so real to
us is it's really informed by an extraordinary amount of
research talking to experts in media and news and you know,
(18:32):
obviously we've talked about we've had wealth consultants. It all
is meant to feel very real. So they they they
capture it because they work so hard at doing it
at the lingo and the possibilities of a media merger
and what could happen and what might happen. So I
don't think it's it makes sense that it would mirror
(18:53):
a lot of what's going on in any media company
right now, because it is based on actual conversations with
people in the business.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
I mean, knowing the lead time that they had to
produce episodes. The way that they were it seemed like
they were commenting on things that we had the Variety
was reporting about, you know, the previous day.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
It was so so spot on.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
All right, I will not talk take the whole half
an hour to talk about succession, but I.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Do last that I have to ask.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Did you did you were you rooting for any one
of the siblings? Were you rooting for a a success
Thank you?
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Thank you for asking that, because the one thing I
want to make sure you know, nobody won. None of
the siblings won. No, and even Tom didn't win. If
anybody won, it's Matson, and he will go on to
screw up his kids, like Logan. Did you know? So
(19:45):
maybe in twenty five years, someone can do the mats
in succession story. But there was no no. Tom didn't win.
I don't think nobody really won. And that was kind
of the point, you know, Jesse said at one point.
I thought it was a great phrase. Logan was guarding
an empty safe. You know, the kids were fighting for
this thing and there's nothing there. You know, there's nothing there.
(20:09):
So uh but that said, I, if anybody should have won,
Jerry should have. Jerry should have gone. She was the
most capable, so she should have won, if anybody.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Won by the sweat equity pleasure pressure. I just love
how she unfired herself. She just decided I was on fired.
I thought that was so and such again we again,
we could talk for the whole half now. But just
such great casting. I mean, to give her such a
such a media role. Let me ask you about you
you've made. I mean I could go, you know, House
of the Dragon, White Lotus Berry, so many July twelfth
(20:45):
and Denominations Day should be a very should be a
very bountiful morning for HBO.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Knock on Wood. I'm superstitious.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I won't ask you. I know that's like asking you
to pick a favorite child. I would not ask you that,
but let me ask you about though, something that is
not in contention for this year's at means, because it
has just arrived and it has made quite a splash
the idol.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yes, how are you?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
How do you feel about how that show has gotten off?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Obviously I knew it was going to be controversial. I
was not necessarily looking at reviews on that show. But
it made it did what I thought it was going
to do. Was it made a splash. If you think
about it, it's been on the air for three days,
four days. There's not been in New York Times. I
was going to say, there was another article in the
(21:31):
New York Times wondering if it can bring back the
erotic thriller, And there was a Wall Street Journal article
wondering if rat Tails were coming back. So that's in
four days. So you know, you want shows to be
part of the conversation. You want them to provoke. Maybe
the rat Tail.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
One is a you know, that's the one you could lose, right.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Maybe maybe not, but anyway, so it's kind of doing
what we kind of expected and thought it was going
to do.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You knew going in it was going to prove it
was going to provoke, do you is that?
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Is that a metric of sorts the level of like
I mean not only social commentary and social media, but
like commentary at the level of the New York Times.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
I mean we used to we used to say, you know,
for you want a show to go from the entertainment
pages of the opinion, you know, like you want it
to be discussed in all realms. It's certainly something that
our shows do. And and I like the fact that
people have opinions, strong opinions, positive and negative about a
(22:31):
lot of the stuff that we do, because you kind
of want to, you know, ultimately, it is good for
your brand to be out there and people discussing the
shows and caring that much about the shows that they
do have opinions on who won or whether a rat
tail is coming back.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I don't know, A lack of interest is probably probably
the worst thing these days. Well, let's take a hard
pivot from from this conversation, because I actually do want
I know that I know that this is something that
you've been thinking about, something the industry has been thinking about,
and something that is an issue right now that is
an issue in Hollywood's contract talks, and that is artificial
(23:07):
intelligence and its role in the creative process. And I
think we can tell by the applause and boomy.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
You're here, Yes, so as you can imagine.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
But for anybody that's you know, any of us with
a variety at HBO, that cop that all work in
copyright based businesses, work in the world of filling the
blank page with words, it's a little scary time. Can
you talk at all about on a high level how
you're thinking about that?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yeah, I mean I so the caveat or two things
to keep in mind when I say this. One is
remember I grew up in bethlen, Pennsylvania, which is steel town.
So I am very very aware of what happens when
a company does not think about the future as not aware.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Of the future, that is very seriously.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
But also I've been at HBO for nineteen years and
I have never tested a pilot to decide whether to
pick it up or not. That we just don't use
all of the kind of things that other places is
just not something we do. So my take on AI
I just the idea that AI would be involved in
(24:14):
any sort of development or the creative process in the
kinds of shows that I do, or we do at HBO,
I just don't think that's that's not something I want
to be a part of. So I think if it
does become something, and I hope I don't sound like
(24:34):
a Seal executive in the seventies, but I just can't
see it, And if it is, I hope to god
I'm retired by that point. I am sure. Now that said,
I am sure there is very smart and useful ways
to use it that smart people are thinking about. But
in the creative process what I'm mostly concerned about development
(24:56):
and working with writers, I don't see it. And for
almost I've been at HBoL for nineteen years, almost that
entire time, people kept coming to us and saying, scripted
short form content is the future, and you guys got
to figure it out, and I kept saying, don't. I
(25:16):
don't see it. I don't think so I don't see it.
So I think I was right about that, and I
think I'm right about this.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Well.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
The courage of your convictions has served you really well
so far, so.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Well, and I guess I should. If a creator came
to us and said I am desperate to use AI
in my development process, I guess I would think they
were wrong. But you know, I can't imagine that happening though.
I just can't.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
I think, I mean, I think it's something that is
so it's so new that we all can't wrap our
heads around it, which is like these are things we've
been saying regularly these days that you know, this.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Is I get to retire before we actually have to
deal with this.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Exactly, but it is.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
You know, the scary part is that it is fed
by ingesting other works, which is like that you know
where where the where the line is that is going
to be the art.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
There is so much to legal scholars, that's right, exactly,
There's so much that it is so new and there's
so much to figure out. It is a little scary.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Let me ask you yet another hard pivot here. I
want to ask you, Uh, there's so much to talk about.
We could we could go on longer, but obviously HBO
and the parent company have been through a you know,
been through a process of brand iteration for both HBO,
for both Max, we don't need to talk over every detail,
(26:45):
every step of the boy. But what would you like
to leave this audience with and the streaming audience with
in terms of how you are thinking about Max and
how you are thinking about HBO as you are the
creative steward of both.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I get asked about it a lot, so this is.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Not the first time you've heard this.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
So here's here's the the issue. When HBO Max was created, Remember,
nobody from HBO was involved in that back in the day.
So when they put HBO in the two regimes two
regimes ago, yes I've lost. But when you put HBO
in the title, whatever follows it HBO Max, h whatever
(27:22):
was that becomes HBO and HBO was not designed to
be a brand that took on repeats and reality television,
and you know, it was very specifically for our lineup
of Sunday night programming, Bill Maher, John Oliver documentaries, first
(27:43):
Pay one movies. It was not designed to represent as
a brand all this stuff. It did that during HBO
Max a lot of stuff. You know, I would see
things written to drive me crazy. Why ISO f Boy
Island on HBO and I to go It's not really
you know, the problem. The challenge was we had spent
(28:05):
two years as HBO Max or three years. I'm losing
track of time. I think it was three years. So
we spent just said HBO Max, people got used to it.
I believe we ended up in the right place, which
is max Is. I like to think of Max as
a little bit like a cable bundle. You know, HBO.
In the history of tech, bundling has always been whether
(28:27):
it's in network television was a bundle. The cable bundle
obviously was a bundle. The history of HBO was always
an add on to a larger a larger amount of indifference.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
There was the first step to just even getting in
the door.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yes, so HBO is a standalone product, really only existed
for a couple of years with HBO now, but it
it is successful when it's part of a larger package.
That was what the cable bundle was. And even in
the cable bundle, to get to channel two hundred and five,
you had to flip through a bunch of other channels
(29:01):
to get to HBO. So now that people have seen MAX,
I hope you've noticed that the very top is HBO.
So if you sign on you just want to go
to HBO, you can go right there and in the
brand rails there's HBO, there's HGTV, there's Food Network. So
if you the only experience you want to have is
going to HBO. You can do that just like you
had to do in the cable bundle, flip through channels
(29:22):
to get there and just live there. But the reality
is most people coming in and we're seeing more of
it now, want to see other things. They don't want
to just watch HBO. They want to watch movies, they
want to watch library content, they want to watch other things.
And for HBO to be healthy, it's got to be
(29:42):
a part of a larger ecosystem. And as a matter
of fact, at this point for HBO, the average show
is getting about sixty to seventy percent of its viewership
from max as opposed to Live as opposed to Linear.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
That's interesting. So it's significant.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
So if we didn't have I mean, because obviously the
you know, the linear bundle is praying if we didn't
have that, we would you know, not be in good
shape and right, you know, so this is really about
saving you know, or securing the future of HBO. So
now it can live as HBO. It doesn't have to
take on, you know, thousands of hours of discovery content
(30:22):
that came on. It can just be what it is
and it doesn't have to be defined by anything else
other than what the team at HBO develops and puts
on the air.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
And you have done your job in bringing people to
the screen. I mean again, we could just go down
the list, last of us, House of the Dragon, the.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Bury, the White Lotus.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I mean just so many, so many great shows and
more on the horizon.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Yeah, True Detective, which I have seen and it's very good.
So look for that in the fall.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Anything else, any other as oh, we are out of
time here, anything you want to leave us with, anything
we should be watching out for, either on HBO or Max. Anything,
maybe a little under the radar we should watch out.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Well, it's not under the radar, but the second season
of and just like that. I've heard of that show, Yes, yes,
lately it's been in the news a little bit. And
then we have the second season of Winning Time, which
is a great show. John, thank you, John c Riley
is so good. So we're excited about that. I don't
think we've announced the date yet, but we are going
too soon. We've got that, We've got the Gilded Age,
(31:26):
We've got I'm gonna go through Hope. We've got rap
shit coming back, We've got our Flagman's death, so we've
got a bunch of stuff coming up.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Awesome. Casey, thank you so much for your time. Thanks
really deeply appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Be sure to
leave us a review at Apple Podcasts and Amazon Music.
We love to hear from listeners. Please go to Variety
(31:54):
dot com and sign up for our free weekly Strictly
Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in next week
for another episode of Strictly Business.
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My
guest is Casey Bloys, Chairman and CEO.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Of HBO and Max.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Casey is one of the most influential people in entertainment today.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
And he is also one of the most unassuming.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
He has a hard and heavily scrutinized job, but he
is also unfailingly optimistic and always focused on what HBO
does best, make incredible shows. His programming team at HBO
has defied the odds and delivered a string of hits
of late from House of the Dragon, to The White Lotus,
(00:53):
to the Last of Us to Succession, Euphoria and Barry.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Bloys has also.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Been in the thick of the streaming wars as the
leader of content for Max, the fledgling streaming sibling of HBO.
The platform had a difficult birth as HBO Max in
May twenty twenty. It was re christened Max last month.
Max has had plenty of technical challenges, but on Bloy's
watch as content chief, it has fielded such top contenders
(01:21):
as Max and just like that the flight attendant, Love
and Death and more. Bloys addressed the HBO and Max
value propositions for consumers and many more topics during our
half hour conversation held on June seventh as part of
Variety's TV FYC Fest at the One Hotel in West Hollywood.
(01:43):
With the writer strike raging on, Bloys was gracious to
honor his long standing commitment to speak at our event
at a time when many executives are laying low. I
also appreciated Bloy's honesty in challenging my assessment of Succession
season one, as you'll hear, and for offering his candid
thoughts on AI and its use in entertainment. So get ready,
(02:06):
a wide ranging conversation about HBO and the media business
is coming up right after this break, and we're back
with HBO Chairman and CEO Casey Bloys. Let's address the
elephant in the room right now. This is a very
(02:28):
trying time for the creative community, given that there are
that there was a writer strike going on. There are
very difficult contract negotiations happening. We wish every single person
in that process, well, I don't want to be labor this,
but can you give us a sense like, how are
you all feeling right now at this moment as we're
(02:49):
at a you know, we're at a crossroads of sorts.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I mean, I'm probably not going to say anything no
body that hasn't been said already. As someone who works
with writers, works with talent, I would just like us
all as an industry to you know, to figure it
out and for everybody to feel valued and get back
to at least for me, developing and producing great TV.
(03:12):
So but it's going to you know, it's going to
take some time, and everybody's got to feel that they
that they got a deal that values them. So I
understand that, and I get it, and I hope it
doesn't take longer than it.
Speaker 2 (03:27):
Has to me too. We are absolutely in agreement with that.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Well, Casey, we thank you very much for hanging in
because we you know, we know it's a touchy time
and we do appreciate it.
Speaker 2 (03:39):
Casey.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
I was never so happy we put Casey on the
cover of Variety in February. I was never so happy
to have an executive on our cover. We had chased
this guy for years and he always said no, no,
I want to put it on the shows, and we finally,
we finally persuaded, And it was such a perfect timing
because it was just last of us came out, and
(04:00):
that one was I think a lot of us did
not see that coming. In terms of the we knew
it was HBO, we knew it was going to be quality,
But in terms of the emotional depth of that show
that must have been was the response and the execution
of what was you know, video game based ip did
(04:22):
the execution of the content and the response that it
got from the audience.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Did that surprise you? Was that a pleasant surprise to you?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
It didn't surprise me, because obviously I think all of
our shows are special, you know, but you never know,
you know, even if you think something is the greatest
thing you've ever seen, you never know until you put
it out in the world. So I was really happy
to see the response, and I was happy for Craig
and Neil, and it was it was nice to see
everybody recognized, the cast and crew and directors. It's just
(04:54):
it was It's what you want to see when you
work so hard on a show. God, Craig's been developing
that for several years and so to have it come
out and be received like that is a very nice feeling.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Absolutely, I did you sense in the early going, I mean,
for me as a viewer, not being very not being
familiar at all with the video game. For me as
a viewer, I did not expect the depth of the
relationship between Pedro, Pascal and Bella. I mean that that
was almost it almost became a buddy journey story. But
(05:30):
is certain that has many more chapters to go right now.
But was that something was that part of the show.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Was that something that you was up at?
Speaker 3 (05:37):
That is that is I didn't know the video game?
I'm not I don't play video games, so it makes
two of us. Yeah, so I am really not a
video game person at all. I obviously knew what it
was when Craig said this is what I want to do.
I I I learned about it, but I know that
relationship is key to the video game and key obviously
(06:00):
to the show, and the relationship that Pedro and Bella
brought to screen I think is really what really touched
a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Was there any in the early going of bringing Last
of Us to the screen? Was there a sense of
plotting along with the way the game evolved. It's such
a different type of material to adapt. It's not like
a novel or you know, it's a it's a more
open ended story on the on the game sete.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
I'm just curious how you conceptionally attacked.
Speaker 3 (06:33):
So what's funny about it is that the success of it,
we got a lot of questions about, like, so, are
you going to do more video games? You know? Is this?
Does this mean?
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Of course?
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Because like Lemmings, you know, yeah, and and I guess
the the lesson for me and my two cents, for
anybody who looks at it and says we got to
go develop a video game, the lesson for me was
not develop a video game and it'll be a hit.
The lesson for me is get in business with someone
(07:06):
like Craig and trust what they want to do. Craig.
The reason we did it is because after Chernobyl, we
had a great experience with Craig and we said to Craig,
what do you want to do next? And I know
from Chernobyl, I know when he sinks his teeth into something,
he becomes obsessed, which is what you want from a
from a creator. And I knew whatever he wanted to do.
(07:27):
It would be something special, and so he said, I
want to do Last of Us. And we were lucky
because then Neil, who created the video game, Neil Druckman,
Neil Truman, went along on that journey with Craig as well,
and he directed episodes and wrote episodes, so we were
doubly lucky to have him involved. But the lesson is
not develop video games. It is being business with people
(07:48):
that you trust and support them in what they want
to do and follow their instincts. I think anyway, that's
that's my two coming out of that. That's my two cents.
Is if another if another writer who we like and
admire says I've got to develop this video game. There's
(08:09):
nothing else I can do, There's nothing else that will
fit my brain but this video game, and I've got
to do it, I'd go okay, But I don't know
that I would and I had we haven't scoured video
game titles and said okay, you know, here's here's what
we should do.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
It was it was the story of last Story.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
I mean, I will say I know it was. It
was Craig. And then obviously in my mind, I thought, well,
Craig is really into this, and and I was the
idea of and it was not a zombie show but
a post apocalyptic setting. I thought that could be really
interesting to see what Craig would do with that. So
(08:50):
I thought the combo could be interesting. But again the
lesson for me is following the creator, following the creators,
not necessarily starting with the I P and M doing that.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Did you do anything in any of the marketing or
any of the outreach or you know, kind of building
buzz for the show. Did you in any way target
the video game? Oh?
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Yeahmunity, Yeah. Sony was very helpful, right.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
Sony Pictures Television produce the series. It's based on a
PlayStation game, so.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
They were very helpful. Naughty Dog, which is Neil's company
that created the game, was very helpful in terms of
getting the work. It was a very getting the word
out to the Last of US fans and the video
game fans. The Last of US fan base is very active,
(09:38):
very supportive, so that was a nice That was a
nice benefit of doing the show.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
And from as I have learned from gamers that it
is that it is of all types of games that
would lend itself because it is such an emotional story
that is that.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
That did in that journey.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Their relationship, I think is what sets it apart from
other video game titles.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
I think, all right, well, I want to also ask
you have so many shows. We have an embarrassment of
riches here, but I have to ask you. I have
to ask you about succession.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
I mean truly.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
First of all, I think the first victory there was
was really season one. There was a bit of a
slow build, but from about halfway through season one.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Although wait, let me just say one thing on that. Okay,
I just want to say one thing. I thought the
show was the show from the beginning. I think it
took some time for people to understand what it was doing.
But it was funny. I saw, you know, I follow
the reaction to the show in real time. So I'm
going back to the first season. But a lot of
(10:46):
people are like it finally found its voice in the
third episode. I'm like, third, that was used to take
shows three seasons to find their voice, you know, so,
but I think it was there from the beginning.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
But okay, everything is accelerated these days. But what I
actually meant was just in terms of the reaction, the
show was absolutely there.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
From the from the very get go.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Of course, we all remember that opening image that will
never forget Logan Roy. We saw him as the most intimate,
but in terms of reaction and then from honestly, from
about halfway through season one, it did become in a way,
Last of Us also achieved this must see you getting
people to tune in on a getting me to tune
(11:29):
in on a Sunday night at nine, making sure don't
call me, don't everybody knows I'm you know, I'm watching
my show.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
That's rare. That's rare these days.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
I honestly think that is that is so rare these
days that it's fun. It's fun for people that love
their show so much. Do you know when did you
know that you were that you had touched that nerve
with succession? Obviously you knew the quality was there from.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
I following the first season, it really did seem to
catch on. I remember when we did it. One of
the things when we we shot a pilot and you know,
remember there's no IP, you know, there's no video game
it's based on, and we purposely didn't go for you know,
(12:13):
Adam McKay was directing, so he had a lot of
people who would have come to work with him, but
we wanted I didn't want to push anybody to higher
stars or anything, just kind of like whoever you thought
the best actor was. So we were going out in
the world with a show that was not based on
IP and had no giant movie stars attached. So it
was I don't wanna say a tough sell because that's
(12:36):
not fair to the show, but the fact that it
was able to break through, But you know, it was
a pretty amazing thing. I think it's estimate to Jesse's
writing in the cast and mark mylot, but I would
say probably halfway through the season, when people kind of
understood what it was doing and the rhythms and the
(12:58):
mix of comedy and drama, that there was something special there.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
You know, I have to ask you, have you ever
heard from any of the Murdochs about the show.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I have not.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
You know, I've anecdotally heard you know, somebody whose cousin's
brother knows so and so, and you know, so I
have no idea. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
You haven't gotten any idio signed notes from Rupert.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
I haven't nothing.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Well, I do know that Jesse Armstrong has absolutely been
clear that it is an amalgam of some characters. Although
there are definitely having covered the Murdocks for a long time,
there are definitely some and what I just we all
know because we work in the business. I mean there
are some types, some personality types among the corporate roles
(13:46):
that they get that they nail so so well.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
It's incredible.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Let me ask you so fast forwarding to the end,
I really think you all have shown incredible discipline in
not no spinoffs. There are any number of characters, you know,
leading characters, supporting characters that we would all want to
spend more time with. But I know you feel strongly
about well.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
I guess I would make the same I would use
this to make the same point I made about Craig
and the Last of Us. If Jesse said to me,
I have got to do a Tom and Greg spinoff,
I can't, you know, like I've just got to It's
what I I creatively, It's I can't get out of
(14:32):
my head and I have to do it.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
The title is there, the Disgusting.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Brothers, Yes, exactly. If Jesse wanted to do that, I
would follow his lead and say great. But he you know,
I think it was the right decision because there are
some I think there are some shows that naturally lead themselves,
a show like House the Dragon coming out of Game
of Thrones. You know, George's universe is so huge, I mean,
spans hundreds of years and many families, and there's battles
(14:57):
and civil wars and all of that stuff that kind
of lens itself more logically to spin offs or trying
again this one. I think it's it's obviously fun to
think about the the combinations, but if Jesse's not feeling it,
I'm not you know, I'm not going to go down
(15:19):
that road. If he's not feeling.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
It, I think, I hear you. I still think incredible discipline.
So many other places would have been you know, succession, Sydney, where.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Wherever it might go.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
When Jesse, I know you you talked about, you know, Jesse,
when Jesse came to tell you that he felt like
season four was the time to end, did you try
to persuade him or so?
Speaker 3 (15:44):
I I kind of knew that we were that season four.
I knew about Logan, I knew that that was going
to happen, and so I think the sense was this
was probably it the only the only kind of advice
I gave to Jesse was like, just you know, whatever
you want to do is what we'll do. Just think
(16:06):
about it, because you do have this amazing cast, and
it's an amazing you know, it's lightning in a bob.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
It's quite a company.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
Yeah, but so so just really really be sure that
it's time to go. And I also knew Jesse is
an incredibly thoughtful writer, and I knew if I he
would naturally kind of go through that process of do
I see anything here? Do I not see anything here?
And so I knew we would end up in the
(16:33):
right place regardless. So and I know he went back
and forth, and I think he wanted to make sure
that he wasn't leaving anything on the table. But I
trust that he fully felt that that was the right thing.
And I and as I said, when I saw the finale,
it was the only way that Succession could end. It
was to me, it was kind of a perfect ending.
(16:54):
So I think it was again, if you're following the
creator's lead, probably be a good place, a good good
place to go.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
That is the recurring theme.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And since Casey is literally one of the most successful
development people of the last.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Twenty five years. I think that follows listen to the
creed the writer exactly.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Although you can give them notes, you can push them,
you can debate, but ultimately you've got to, you know,
follow their.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
Leader, don't go anywhere. There's more from HBO leader Casey
Bloys coming up right after this break, and we're back
with more from HBO chairman and CEO Casey Bloys again
(17:45):
in the category of I have to ask you, so
much of what was going on with succession a little
close to real life for Warner Brothers, Discovery and all
of the different.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Pass to the entire media eCos.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Very much, very much so definitely not Warner Brothers Discover
being in a vacuum. But did that ever did you
all ever reflect on that, like, Wow, this is a
little bit of a mirror.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Now, probably been in't too meta if I thought about
it too much. But again, I think the real Jesse
and the writers do a ton of research about media.
So the reason that it plays feel so real to
us is it's really informed by an extraordinary amount of
research talking to experts in media and news and you know,
(18:32):
obviously we've talked about we've had wealth consultants. It all
is meant to feel very real. So they they they
capture it because they work so hard at doing it
at the lingo and the possibilities of a media merger
and what could happen and what might happen. So I
don't think it's it makes sense that it would mirror
(18:53):
a lot of what's going on in any media company
right now, because it is based on actual conversations with
people in the business.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
I mean, knowing the lead time that they had to
produce episodes. The way that they were it seemed like
they were commenting on things that we had the Variety
was reporting about, you know, the previous day.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
It was so so spot on.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
All right, I will not talk take the whole half
an hour to talk about succession, but I.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
Do last that I have to ask.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
Did you did you were you rooting for any one
of the siblings? Were you rooting for a a success
Thank you?
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Thank you for asking that, because the one thing I
want to make sure you know, nobody won. None of
the siblings won. No, and even Tom didn't win. If
anybody won, it's Matson, and he will go on to
screw up his kids, like Logan. Did you know? So
(19:45):
maybe in twenty five years, someone can do the mats
in succession story. But there was no no. Tom didn't win.
I don't think nobody really won. And that was kind
of the point, you know, Jesse said at one point.
I thought it was a great phrase. Logan was guarding
an empty safe. You know, the kids were fighting for
this thing and there's nothing there. You know, there's nothing there.
(20:09):
So uh but that said, I, if anybody should have won,
Jerry should have. Jerry should have gone. She was the
most capable, so she should have won, if anybody.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Won by the sweat equity pleasure pressure. I just love
how she unfired herself. She just decided I was on fired.
I thought that was so and such again we again,
we could talk for the whole half now. But just
such great casting. I mean, to give her such a
such a media role. Let me ask you about you
you've made. I mean I could go, you know, House
of the Dragon, White Lotus Berry, so many July twelfth
(20:45):
and Denominations Day should be a very should be a
very bountiful morning for HBO.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Knock on Wood. I'm superstitious.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
I won't ask you. I know that's like asking you
to pick a favorite child. I would not ask you that,
but let me ask you about though, something that is
not in contention for this year's at means, because it
has just arrived and it has made quite a splash
the idol.
Speaker 3 (21:04):
Yes, how are you?
Speaker 2 (21:06):
How do you feel about how that show has gotten off?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Obviously I knew it was going to be controversial. I
was not necessarily looking at reviews on that show. But
it made it did what I thought it was going
to do. Was it made a splash. If you think
about it, it's been on the air for three days,
four days. There's not been in New York Times. I
was going to say, there was another article in the
(21:31):
New York Times wondering if it can bring back the
erotic thriller, And there was a Wall Street Journal article
wondering if rat Tails were coming back. So that's in
four days. So you know, you want shows to be
part of the conversation. You want them to provoke. Maybe
the rat Tail.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
One is a you know, that's the one you could lose, right.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Maybe maybe not, but anyway, so it's kind of doing
what we kind of expected and thought it was going
to do.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
You knew going in it was going to prove it
was going to provoke, do you is that?
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Is that a metric of sorts the level of like
I mean not only social commentary and social media, but
like commentary at the level of the New York Times.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
I mean we used to we used to say, you know,
for you want a show to go from the entertainment
pages of the opinion, you know, like you want it
to be discussed in all realms. It's certainly something that
our shows do. And and I like the fact that
people have opinions, strong opinions, positive and negative about a
(22:31):
lot of the stuff that we do, because you kind
of want to, you know, ultimately, it is good for
your brand to be out there and people discussing the
shows and caring that much about the shows that they
do have opinions on who won or whether a rat
tail is coming back.
Speaker 1 (22:46):
I don't know, A lack of interest is probably probably
the worst thing these days. Well, let's take a hard
pivot from from this conversation, because I actually do want
I know that I know that this is something that
you've been thinking about, something the industry has been thinking about,
and something that is an issue right now that is
an issue in Hollywood's contract talks, and that is artificial
(23:07):
intelligence and its role in the creative process. And I
think we can tell by the applause and boomy.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
You're here, Yes, so as you can imagine.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
But for anybody that's you know, any of us with
a variety at HBO, that cop that all work in
copyright based businesses, work in the world of filling the
blank page with words, it's a little scary time. Can
you talk at all about on a high level how
you're thinking about that?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yeah, I mean I so the caveat or two things
to keep in mind when I say this. One is
remember I grew up in bethlen, Pennsylvania, which is steel town.
So I am very very aware of what happens when
a company does not think about the future as not aware.
Speaker 2 (23:48):
Of the future, that is very seriously.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
But also I've been at HBO for nineteen years and
I have never tested a pilot to decide whether to
pick it up or not. That we just don't use
all of the kind of things that other places is
just not something we do. So my take on AI
I just the idea that AI would be involved in
(24:14):
any sort of development or the creative process in the
kinds of shows that I do, or we do at HBO,
I just don't think that's that's not something I want
to be a part of. So I think if it
does become something, and I hope I don't sound like
(24:34):
a Seal executive in the seventies, but I just can't
see it, And if it is, I hope to god
I'm retired by that point. I am sure. Now that said,
I am sure there is very smart and useful ways
to use it that smart people are thinking about. But
in the creative process what I'm mostly concerned about development
(24:56):
and working with writers, I don't see it. And for
almost I've been at HBoL for nineteen years, almost that
entire time, people kept coming to us and saying, scripted
short form content is the future, and you guys got
to figure it out, and I kept saying, don't. I
(25:16):
don't see it. I don't think so I don't see it.
So I think I was right about that, and I
think I'm right about this.
Speaker 2 (25:28):
Well.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
The courage of your convictions has served you really well
so far, so.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
Well, and I guess I should. If a creator came
to us and said I am desperate to use AI
in my development process, I guess I would think they
were wrong. But you know, I can't imagine that happening though.
I just can't.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
I think, I mean, I think it's something that is
so it's so new that we all can't wrap our
heads around it, which is like these are things we've
been saying regularly these days that you know, this.
Speaker 3 (25:58):
Is I get to retire before we actually have to
deal with this.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Exactly, but it is.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
You know, the scary part is that it is fed
by ingesting other works, which is like that you know
where where the where the line is that is going
to be the art.
Speaker 3 (26:14):
There is so much to legal scholars, that's right, exactly,
There's so much that it is so new and there's
so much to figure out. It is a little scary.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Let me ask you yet another hard pivot here. I
want to ask you, Uh, there's so much to talk about.
We could we could go on longer, but obviously HBO
and the parent company have been through a you know,
been through a process of brand iteration for both HBO,
for both Max, we don't need to talk over every detail,
(26:45):
every step of the boy. But what would you like
to leave this audience with and the streaming audience with
in terms of how you are thinking about Max and
how you are thinking about HBO as you are the
creative steward of both.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I get asked about it a lot, so this is.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Not the first time you've heard this.
Speaker 3 (27:01):
So here's here's the the issue. When HBO Max was created, Remember,
nobody from HBO was involved in that back in the day.
So when they put HBO in the two regimes two
regimes ago, yes I've lost. But when you put HBO
in the title, whatever follows it HBO Max, h whatever
(27:22):
was that becomes HBO and HBO was not designed to
be a brand that took on repeats and reality television,
and you know, it was very specifically for our lineup
of Sunday night programming, Bill Maher, John Oliver documentaries, first
(27:43):
Pay one movies. It was not designed to represent as
a brand all this stuff. It did that during HBO
Max a lot of stuff. You know, I would see
things written to drive me crazy. Why ISO f Boy
Island on HBO and I to go It's not really
you know, the problem. The challenge was we had spent
(28:05):
two years as HBO Max or three years. I'm losing
track of time. I think it was three years. So
we spent just said HBO Max, people got used to it.
I believe we ended up in the right place, which
is max Is. I like to think of Max as
a little bit like a cable bundle. You know, HBO.
In the history of tech, bundling has always been whether
(28:27):
it's in network television was a bundle. The cable bundle
obviously was a bundle. The history of HBO was always
an add on to a larger a larger amount of indifference.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
There was the first step to just even getting in
the door.
Speaker 3 (28:40):
Yes, so HBO is a standalone product, really only existed
for a couple of years with HBO now, but it
it is successful when it's part of a larger package.
That was what the cable bundle was. And even in
the cable bundle, to get to channel two hundred and five,
you had to flip through a bunch of other channels
(29:01):
to get to HBO. So now that people have seen MAX,
I hope you've noticed that the very top is HBO.
So if you sign on you just want to go
to HBO, you can go right there and in the
brand rails there's HBO, there's HGTV, there's Food Network. So
if you the only experience you want to have is
going to HBO. You can do that just like you
had to do in the cable bundle, flip through channels
(29:22):
to get there and just live there. But the reality
is most people coming in and we're seeing more of
it now, want to see other things. They don't want
to just watch HBO. They want to watch movies, they
want to watch library content, they want to watch other things.
And for HBO to be healthy, it's got to be
(29:42):
a part of a larger ecosystem. And as a matter
of fact, at this point for HBO, the average show
is getting about sixty to seventy percent of its viewership
from max as opposed to Live as opposed to Linear.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
That's interesting. So it's significant.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
So if we didn't have I mean, because obviously the
you know, the linear bundle is praying if we didn't
have that, we would you know, not be in good
shape and right, you know, so this is really about
saving you know, or securing the future of HBO. So
now it can live as HBO. It doesn't have to
take on, you know, thousands of hours of discovery content
(30:22):
that came on. It can just be what it is
and it doesn't have to be defined by anything else
other than what the team at HBO develops and puts
on the air.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
And you have done your job in bringing people to
the screen. I mean again, we could just go down
the list, last of us, House of the Dragon, the.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Bury, the White Lotus.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I mean just so many, so many great shows and
more on the horizon.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
Yeah, True Detective, which I have seen and it's very good.
So look for that in the fall.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
Anything else, any other as oh, we are out of
time here, anything you want to leave us with, anything
we should be watching out for, either on HBO or Max. Anything,
maybe a little under the radar we should watch out.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
Well, it's not under the radar, but the second season
of and just like that. I've heard of that show, Yes, yes,
lately it's been in the news a little bit. And
then we have the second season of Winning Time, which
is a great show. John, thank you, John c Riley
is so good. So we're excited about that. I don't
think we've announced the date yet, but we are going
too soon. We've got that, We've got the Gilded Age,
(31:26):
We've got I'm gonna go through Hope. We've got rap
shit coming back, We've got our Flagman's death, so we've
got a bunch of stuff coming up.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Awesome. Casey, thank you so much for your time. Thanks
really deeply appreciate it. Thanks for listening. Be sure to
leave us a review at Apple Podcasts and Amazon Music.
We love to hear from listeners. Please go to Variety
(31:54):
dot com and sign up for our free weekly Strictly
Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in next week
for another episode of Strictly Business.
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