May 1, 2025 • 41 mins
Ben Silverman, Co-CEO and Chairman of Propagate Content, goes deep on how a modern independent studio generates profit from TV series, documentaries and original digital and audio content. As it marks its 10th year, Propagate has added social media creators, brand and management dealmaking into the mix. Silverman, a veteran producer and former head of NBC Entertainment, reflects on how industry dealmaking has changed in discussing where the content business is headed. Plus a bonus segment: Writer Bill Prady shares a memory that involves John Oliver, Jim Henson, “Nightline” and the 1987 stock market crash.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My
guest is Ben Silverman, chairman and co CEO of Propagate Content.
It's not an exaggeration to say that Ben helped shape
(00:29):
the modern TV business, and in this episode we drill
down deep into how an independent production venture such as
Propagate makes money. Coin Moolah, Cheddar Greenbacks, dead Presidents. We
are talking about money. How do companies like Propagate prosper
(00:49):
Ben goes there happily, and that's one of the reasons
why I've enjoyed covering him over the years. Propagate is
busy in TV and film. It has talent management interests
and is increasingly active in managing and setting up brand
partnerships for social media creators. Rewind the tape about twenty
(01:10):
five years. Ben was a savvy William Morris agent who
helped producer Michael Davies bring who Wants to Be a
Millionaire to America, saving ABC in the process. He did
a lot of very creative deals and was ahead of
the curve in working with brands to help finance content.
In the natural way of these things, Ben eventually lit
(01:33):
out of the ten percentary world to launch his own
production banner, Reavely. That company yielded such shows as The Office,
Ugly Betty and The Tutors. We talk about what happened
with Revey years ago as we go through the twists
and turns of the journey that led Ben to Propagate Content,
(01:54):
and of course we talk a little bit about those
two momentous years two thousand and seven Towan when Ben
ran programming for NBC. After the conversation with Ben, please
stay tuned for a real treat from my friend writ
or Bill Prady. Bill was watching John Oliver on Last
Week Tonight the other day and a very meaningful moment
(02:17):
from his past came up totally out of the blue.
It inspired Bill to revisit one of those one of
a kind eyewitness to history experiences that you're lucky to
have if you're lucky enough to work in show business.
That's all coming up after this break, and we're back
(02:45):
with my conversation with Ben Silverman of Propagate Content. Ben Silverman,
chairman and co CEO of Propagate Content. Thanks for joining me.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Absolutely, Cynthia, great to see you.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
You are about ten years now into the gate you
launched it in early twenty fifteen. I want to talk
about the different strands of your business, the content production,
the social media management that you're getting into, your different investments.
But let's start at the core business of producing TV
and film and documentary content. You do a wide range
(03:18):
of genres. Where are your biggest opportunities to make money?
Right now? How does Propagate make money?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Well? I always felt like, you know, the hits find
money and success creates opportunity. I do see there are
places we can take risk. So we have a partnership
in our documentary business called Buttermilk that actually has a
funding source that we utilize to invest in documentaries, and
(03:48):
there we can look at okay, we are fully funding
this documentary, like our upcoming Boy George Culture Club documentary,
which will be premiering at Tribeca June fifth, is a
film that now through that premiere process, could be sold
to the highest bidder. It doesn't just get consumed by
(04:09):
a platform and they dictate the terms. It's something that
can create a competitive subset around that piece of property.
Because we invested in it because we made it and
took that risk. There should be more of a reward
and better economic terms associated with So we've built a
slate of extraordinary documentaries that we do that way, and
those have some arbitrage and upside in the financial part
(04:33):
of those films happening and risk because if they don't
get one hundred percent return on their investment, are our
partner and investor and we lose money. And so it's
you know, it's risk taking, but it's risk taking I
think on a measured and smart scale because documentaries don't
cost as much as episodes of Game of Thrones, so
(04:54):
it makes it an easier bet for an independent company.
Then on the other side.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Let me stop you there and say is it licensing?
Is it the pure licensing fees? Is there any other
model other than you produce a film and you license
it to a streamer, you put it in the box office.
Are the brands coming into this business? I'm pressing you
on how you make money?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
So inside that business you can go to all those lanes.
We could choose to theatrically distribute it through partners and
then window it and then control the actual ip and
copyright on it because we fully funded it, and so
that we're licensing it for maybe a term, you know,
three years, five years, two years, and licensing it through
(05:37):
our own international distribution group around the world, and then
building cycles of revenue and windows and library value. Where
I think documentaries were considered more disposable years ago, they're
now showing real staying power in their actual terminal value
and residual value. And as we have these hyper competitive
(06:00):
streamers playing cops and robbers with each other, there's this
opportunity to potentially license that content as they set up
walls between themselves and how they buy content or produce
content and build those kind of vertically integrated platforms, So
that becomes an opportunity and a way to make money.
(06:22):
Another way is to build out premium content that you
just produce for a fee with upside if it gets
picked up for multiple seasons in the streaming world. And
that shows like our upcoming stick which we're making for Apple,
Lulu the Rhinoceros, the kids show we're making for Apple,
which comes out in May twenty ninth, that comes out
June fourth, starring Owen Wilson, set in the golf world,
(06:45):
and then those are just about can we get longevity.
Can we build in a bonus based fee structure that
if we hit a season three, four or five, we're
getting some back ends that kind of kick in, even
though those shows are likely to only remain within the
Apple ecosystem, there are incentives for us to obviously deliver
(07:07):
the most premium content possible, but also bonuses and revenue.
They don't look like or compared to having an off
network syndicated monster, but they do provide upside and cash.
And you're taking only development and executive risk, you're not
taking physical production risks. Then there are shows like the
one we're making. We have a show that should be
(07:30):
announced soon for Fox Broadcasting where it's a real upside opportunity. Right,
we make a fee on that show that will air
on Fox, and Fox likely will be the studio partner
as well on it, but they will license it around
the world to maximize revenue everywhere they can. They will
look to license and maximize revenue as well within the
(07:53):
North American windows off of Fox Broadcasting. And so then
suddenly you have a real chance for economic upside and
value creation beyond just the first run of that show.
And if you get to that place where you get
success in multiple episodes, there's a chance to sell it
(08:13):
around the world to different buyers and make significant back ends.
Then we also continue to do reality television and where
those shows have international format potential or opportunities to kind
of integrate or build businesses connected to them, I think
are great chances for us to make money as well.
(08:37):
And across that whole group of content, we continue, as
you know, we always have to work with advertisers. So
can we light up a little more revenue with an
advertising partner? Can we light up more revenue with a
merchandising opportunity? Right stick is set in the world of golf.
There's so many people interested in golf and being connected
to the golf consumer, and there are so many opportunities
(08:59):
for golf actual merchandising opportunities. Can we unlock that. Lulua
the Rhinoceros is a kid's show, can we unlock the
value that based on a book that comes with a
animated show, or the voice of that show is the
young woman who is Mawana and you know, so there's
(09:19):
a music soundtrack in that show. Can we unlock value
in that participation? So all of those piece of content
have different versions of financial return. None of them today
other than probably the broadcasting one or the animated one,
have like the kind of massive potential upside that we
(09:40):
had making TV shows in the nineties and odds.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
So now to get to that sort of scale that
you need, you really do need a certain volume.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
You need a volume, and you need chips on the
table and bets, and you need to think through as
smartly as you can. Whatevery deal looks like for where
that upside lies. Right In an animated show, the upside
lies and merchandising and soundtrack.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
In a.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Reality show, it's format and advertising dollars. You have to
look at them all around. Where is the value creation opportunity?
And the fact is the streamers have kind of shut
their walls a little bit, so it's hard to exploit
outside of the platforms.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
In a case like your animated show, Do you own that?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Because it was based on a book that we partnered on.
Apple owns all of the television show, but we are
partners in the merchandising and the soundtrack, and so it's
thinking through things as you enter those deals based on
how powerful is the underlying ip in that case it's
based on a book called Little of the Rhinoceros that
was a bestseller and pre existed, and the writers of
that book, who also helped adapt the show, as the
(10:49):
writers of the script. You know, we're very clear we
have value here. And so that that was a negotiation
where both sides participate, both sides of upside and you
could sass be making Little Lulu stuffies and T shirts
and soundtracks and all that that goes with a big
animated hit and then and then with some of these others,
(11:11):
there may be less merchandising opportunity like a documentary, but
there may be upside an opportunity and that you financed
it and can actually own the IP. And what we're seeing,
like with some of our untold franchise that we make
for Netflix, is real opportunity to actually exploit the doc
ep the way you would have exploited the non fiction book.
(11:31):
So we're turning our film about the Dan Barry Thrashers
crimes and penalties into a movie with Netflix. We're working
on a film based on our Johnny Manziel documentary Johnny
Football that we made for Netflix. So and have a
major movie star attached. So you're able to kind of
build those into IP, their self funding IP and with
(11:54):
a little profit. But then there's this greater upside down
the road because you've actually got a piece of IP
that can translate the way that nonfiction books did fifteen
twenty years ago.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
In the span of Propagate. All of what you just
discussed is very much how business is done in twenty
twenty five, but very different to how was done. What's
it been like to kind of have this perch and
watch the content business both explode in size and global scope,
but also now in the last couple of years post strike,
(12:26):
it's also contracting well.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I think for us, we've been consciously diversified, always entrepreneurial, creative,
lad and we have not burned money like so many
of our peers who when this system kind of retracted
a little bit, they were forced into mergers, they were
forced into sales, they were forced into bankruptcies, you know.
(12:49):
And so we have been able to remain profitable and
self sustaining after a lyft from our initial investors at
A and E and RAIN, And that obviously is a
differentiation to who we are and our independence, but it's
also because we've invested across genre. We were never genre
specific when I started in the nineties to age myself, like,
(13:13):
you know, no one you were a game show producer,
you were a documentary producer, you were a sitcom producer.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
It was very rigid. It was very rigid, and.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I broke all those walls down right. I was doing
my first eighteen months of my first company. I was
doing the Tutors, The Biggest Loser, Ugly Betty, and the Office.
There was no pigeonholing, you know what we did. And
so I think that was very valuable for us inside
our business. And Howard Owens and Drew Buckley, who've worked
(13:45):
with me for a long time, are of that same
mold and model, and so we had a lot of
ability to work across multiple genres and a lot of
relationships that we could manifest into great content in multiple genres.
So I think that's very valuable because when you have
a strike, you can make a reality show when you
have when you have a downturn in one side of
(14:08):
the business, you're able to produce more efficiently in the other.
When you when you have documentaries as a passion and
then it explodes into a business, you're sitting there in
a first driver's seat because you made the nine to
eleven with the Nowadays who we've now done in nine
films with, and you have worked with the net first
scene on Hillary and now she's doing our Sam Banking Free.
You've you we represented Kenya Barris through Artists First and
(14:31):
we're able to put him into our Jerry West documentary.
So you're able to really do things, I think uniquely
that come from the diversity of content we produce in
our and are turned on by.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
At what point did you hit the break even mark?
Like how many years in did you get to the
point where you could take a breath and like, you know,
see that revenue was coming in.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
We really used capital to acquire businesses, specifically investments in
Artists First and Authentic and Select the management companies and Electis,
which was my old company that produced Chopped and actually
had investments in those companies. And so we really use
(15:14):
the capital to create the acquisitions that led to us
being profitable and break even. And that was how we
used the capital as opposed to just funding content or
development or executives. And we've had expansion retrenchment, expansion retrenchment
(15:36):
and a lot of that happened with the marketplace transformation
as you mentioned, between Strike and then you know, just
the retrenchment and then the challenges that a lot of
the players have had from Paramount to Max and beyond
to continue to invest. And I'm really hopeful that new
(15:57):
investment will arrive as we see companies like Paramount figure
themselves out. When this merger is finally done, I think
that's going to be a big stimulus into the industry.
I think what NBC Universal is doing and spinning out
under Mark Lazarus, this new cable company as a pure
play and then having Peacock in the studio be more
(16:19):
pure played, like, I think that's going to unlock opportunity.
So I see some moves on the horizon that will
unlock opportunity. And I see the reorganization at Amazon unlocking
much smarter, better investment. And I see the Apple you
know shows being so good that I think they'll continue
to look to deliver on the promise of these great
(16:43):
shows that they're making right now.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Are A and E Networks and Rain are they still
in as investors?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
They are. They are both investors in the company, and
we do a lot of content with Annie.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
You can see where you're going with the diversification from
everything from talent man management to trying to wrap your
arms around the world of social media creators. Let me
just ask you some of the same questions I just
asked you about content these days. Where's the sweet spot
for making money in the business of representing social media creators.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
There's really two big lifts, but three if you include
some of the success we've had migrating some of that
talent into mainstream TV and streaming. But it's a series
of you know, micro transactions going on all year long
where they're selling advertising basically to people who want to
(17:38):
connect directly to an audience through an influencer or you know,
marketing person, and so that's a sequence of revenue that
just continues to grow. As people look to invest in
social media, they like to invest through authentic voices that
can communicate. So we have, you know, a large pool
(17:59):
of those kind of people that you can talk to
an audience and consumer directly. And if you're a beverage company,
a tea company, a haircare company, a fitness brand, you
can utilize those influencers and pay them to do that,
and they are basically monetizing their access and their authenticity
(18:19):
to connect to their audience and consumer. So that's one bucket.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
And let me just ask you like those numbers. I know,
you know years ago it was there was sort of
a scale for people and it was, you know, four
figures and five figures. But these numbers are a lot
bigger nowadays.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Correct, The numbers are growing as the migration of audience
is not watching and I'm sure you know the stat's
eight hours of television, they're on six hours of social
and four hours of television because a lot of it
is dual happening at the same time. And so you're
watching these numbers shift. You're watching them shift even more
aggressively demographic based. You know, a seventy year old is
(18:58):
actually also on social, but no near as much as
a twenty year old, And so you're watching this massive
demographic utility shift. So as the audience moves and the
consumer moves, so too does the advertiser. And this is
a perfect means to connect directly with consumer and directly
with audience in an authentic way. So those numbers grow.
(19:18):
The numbers grow as the influencer and talent communicates to
a larger group of people. And it grows just in
how we are using those services and those platforms with
more and more time and attention.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Then can I just ask you, is that a ten
percent business or is that structured all kinds of different ways.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
It's a little higher because the work is so much
work because you're not doing like necessarily one brand deal
for the whole year. Some of these some of these
are fifty to one hundred deals per per influencer happening
over the course of the year. It is so much
work for those manager salespeople like their managers growing their
(20:04):
careers and advising, and then they're also out there literally
selling these clients. So it's like these two roles in one.
So it warrants a larger piece because it's really hard
to do and it takes a ton of work. We
also can migrate some of the ones who have ambition
(20:25):
for being in a TV show or movie to another
medium through our network and relationships. So the select team
identified the Mormon wives and that's become a massive hit
for them that they're now producing. We place Georgia Berger,
one of our executives who we trained to propagate, was
a former assistant a nine years ago and knew the
(20:45):
television and entertainment set. We put her inside Select and
so she's there working with Lisa and the team there
to kind of mine opportunities from their clients also to
migrate them to television, and then it becomes a great
flywheel all of the Kardashians where they're social grows, their
television growth and advertiser and brand interest grows. Then another
lane for that world is that we're also able to
(21:06):
develop out actual brands with those clients. Like Mindy McKnight,
who's represented there, has a hair product business called Heritage
that does incredibly well inside Walmart. So you have this
little kind of almost venture world going on, and you've
seen it with so many celebrities, but these influencers really
doing it organically and directly with their consumer building out
(21:29):
actual brands as well directly. So we have a credible
barbecue company with Anthony Anderson and Cedric the entertainer. On
the more traditional entertainment side. The opportunity to unlock that
opportunity is big. So you can feed a television show,
you can run these micro transactions and keep the lights
on and grow their businesses and help and keep them
(21:51):
fed and raising their families, and then you can have
these upsides into this brand creation where where there's interest,
engagement and organic authentic opportunity. So I really like that business.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Does Propagate have a piece of that company or does
Propagate benefit from the client has more revenue coming in
and you commission that revenue.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
All different, so some we invest in, some we build,
some we incubate, some we just commission. So it's a
range of opportunities that we look to with the clients
whatever they want or whatever help they need. Some of
them we have to actually build. Sometimes we bring the
idea to the client and co invest or sometimes we
(22:35):
just help source the opportunity from an investment on the outside,
or maybe they need somebody who can merchandise or somebody
who can build it, or someone who can manufacture it.
So it's all different. Some of them are pure commission
based based tied to the revenue that comes out of
what our managers help advise them to accomplish. And then
others are ones where we've actually come up with the
(22:58):
idea packaged in the talent, invest it along and built
it with them so that they there's a range to it,
just like a kind of it's like a mini venture
portfolio of different structures inside the company. Now I have
a whole thesis about our entire business that was from
the start of the day we opened it. That's only
(23:18):
which is where content creates culture comes commerce, And is
that content the influencer? Is that content the TV show?
But where we're driving culture drives commerce, and that is
an amazing opportunity that's been unlocked through the technological transformation
(23:39):
of how the Internet allows us to talk one to one,
one to many.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Let's talk about some shows. You're wearing a stick hat.
Let's use stick microcosm example. First of all, what made
you say yes to pursuing this? And tell me about
sort of the evolution of stick and why it makes
sense for Propagate to do this show.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Well, whenever I'm talking to a real estate developer or
venture capitalist or private equity investor, I always do explain
that our world is actually very similar and one really
clear cut way. Each one of our shows, as you
point out, is its own business, with its own CEO
and its own staff. You know, so you work with
(24:22):
it a creator like I have had the privilege of
working with Jason Keller on this. You ID eight and
create together and build out a pitch and a process
to go take it to market to get somebody. And
in this case, I was wildly passionate about it because
I loved Jason's work and had worked on a couple
shows prior to it with him that we had developed
(24:44):
but not gotten produced, but also loved the idea of
doing an emotionally grounded comedy and a lot of it's
inspired by his own father. And then we end up
pitching it out. Apple is very interested in it. They
end up investing in the script, which is like the
kind of first phase of their venture investment. We get
(25:05):
the script written, and now we need to get a
kind of bible and series arec written because they like
the script enough so they have Jason do that, and
then who is going to be stick? And that becomes
the entire next step of the process, which is, we
have material, We have an opportunity because everyone's liked the material,
Now can we get somebody to come in and be
(25:27):
our star? And Owen Wilson was who we wanted to
do this, and he had never done TV like this
before in his whole career. We felt it was like
a huge exciting get but also a role that he
would just do so well and bring so much of
his incredible talent to and so we were able to
get Owen excited. Then we write the rest of the
(25:49):
episodes and build the writer's room and start hiring more
creative people. Then we bring in our production designers and
production scouts and start figuring out where we're going to
shoot it. Then we have our producers and our physical
producers here are going to make sure that we know
how to pay for it and can execute it. And
so you're sitting there with the show center kind of
overseeing this now growing army of executives and people working
(26:13):
on this series that you started with one other person
and now has expanded to one hundred and fifty other people,
not even including you know, extras and you know film
production and TV production elements. And that's kind of the process,
and it's a complicated one. It's an intense one. Any
(26:35):
piece of it goes wrong and it falls off the rails,
and any element that you bring in can disrupt and
break it. You cast the wrong person, you hire the
wrong directors, you bring in the wrong DP. You know,
there's so many of those roles that have to mesh
perfectly to build out something. And I want to say
(26:57):
one thing. Both Jason and Owen, though are player coaches,
they were both the kind of people who knew how
to communicate, articulate, lead by example, show up first, leave last,
and then you kind of people follow you in line.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
What does a home run for Stick look like for you?
On Apple?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I believe that show is award worthy. I think that
Owen's performance is singular and superlative as well as the writing.
So I truly believe that that show should be able
to be validated in an award circle. But I also
see it as a four quadrant show. It's a show
(27:37):
that has aspirational and warmth to it that I think
it can find a big audience inside the Apple sphere,
and so I think it could be measured by success
in how it does with its cohorts Apple, and I
think it can be further validated with its with its
(28:01):
potential like ted Lasso had in actually getting accolades from
the Globes or the MS.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Let me ask you about ninety minuto. So you've got
a Spanish language comedy coming to Peacock may twenty second.
Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
So we developed this early on when there was a
just different strategy at the platform where T Plus was
kind of going to be its own thing.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
That ended up Telemundo, the Nbcundo Spanish language network.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Yes, was going to kind of do its own kind
of premium Spanish language work, just like kind of Vix
was going to do with television continues to do and
so now it's shifted to Telemundo. But we love Spanish
language content. We've had great success in doing English language
US Hispanic content like Jane the Virgin and Ugly Betty.
(28:51):
We've got a big Latin division and focus a lot
of time and energy on it. I really enjoy collaborating
with brilliant Latin storytellers, writers, creators, actors, actresses, and this
came out of that and is a really strong comedy
set in the world of soccer. That's the ninety minutes part,
and I think could break out into something that the
(29:14):
English language audience would also watch because we're seeing barriers drop.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Anything else, And you'd like to mention.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
One of the things that I'm super excited about on
the twentieth anniversary of the Office is that we'll be
launching a new show in the Office universe called The
Paper with Peacock, which I'm really excited for and I
think as long as the modern audience can show the
same patients it showed and twenty years ago. It is
an extraordinary cast and brilliantly realized comedic series that I
(29:45):
think people are going to just love and has all
the heart and energy and warmth that the original had,
plus actors and actresses that you didn't know before.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Do you have a timetable for that?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
They will announce hopefully this upfront, which you'd give you
an indication, but it'll it should be on before It'll
be twenty five, so which will be great. And I
can't wait because it's so fun and I think people
are going to love it. And then beyond that, we
got a Jerry West documentary being directed by Kenya Barriss.
(30:18):
Wh've got this great untold franchise, and we've got Sam
bankmin Free being directed by the net First team who
did Kids Stays in the Picture and it's such a
wonderful and they Elizabeth Taylor and I such a wonderful
filmmaking collaborative of ours. So a lot of really good
stuff coming out to propagate across genre, across platform. I'm
(30:40):
excited for all our talent to shine.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Ben. Thank you for this very candid conversation. I appreciate it.
Let me wind up with just a couple of fast
ones here. You've mentioned the office and ugly Betty and tutors.
That was when you were running a company called Revelly,
when you got hired by a little company called NBC
Universal and you sold that company. Do you regret selling? Really?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I not only regret selling Revely. My children don't even
realize how much I regret selling it. At the time,
people thought I sold it for a lot of money,
but they had no idea what was inside that company.
It could have been paid back with a quarter of
the office, and I really do regret it. We were
just so ahead. I would have turned that company into
(31:24):
something extraordinary. Could have used it in the same way
that like David Ellison's using sky Dance and maybe ended
up owning Paramount. So I do regret it. But I
also learned so much at NBCUniversal and met so many
different kinds of people that I don't think I necessarily
(31:44):
would have met through the journey had I just stuck
with Revely.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Was there a world where you could have structured it differently.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I put it into a blind trust. I did everything
I was supposed to do, even though when I had
conceived of the deal my plan was to step back
into it. I was made to sell it, really sold
it on a phone call. I never marketed it, took
it out, didn't do anything. I didn't even understand values.
And then I discovered later that it was purchased by
somebody who just used a bank to buy it for
(32:12):
them through the projections of the business, which I hadn't
even done. So it absolutely was a lot of naevite
on my side, and I should have held stronger.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Is there any world where you would still be on
the executive track?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
No? I quit that job because it gave me a
stomach ache. I need to be free and run free
and control of my own destiny. And I also I
really don't like I didn't like being inside an organization,
any organization where I was limited in following through on
(32:50):
creativity that may have turned me on. Like I love
that I could make a food show for the Food Network.
I could make a great comedy for Apple. I could
do all documentary for Netflix and Amazon. I like the
diversity of content. I'm able to pursue un filtered, and
I got frustrated that I had to conform to like
(33:10):
certain buckets of kind of content were the only ones
at that time that the network made, or if I
migrated to a different place than someone else made, you know,
and I don't think I have ted Surandus's stamina to
just to work twenty four hours a day, like inside
that kind of business from that perspective where you kind
(33:31):
of end up having to become almost a political figure,
not just a creative figure or an entrepreneurial figure. So
I am definitely made the right choice to leave there.
I made the wrong choice to sell Ben.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Thank you so much for going through all this. Really
appreciate your caming.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Be continued, Cynthia anytime now for the treat that I
promised you at the start of this episode.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
My friend Bill Prady reached out to me the other
day with a memory he wanted to share. As soon
as he started talking, I knew I wanted him to
record it for strictly business. Bill is a veteran comedy
writer and co creator of a show that is always
airing somewhere in the world, The Big Bang Theory. Many
years before Bill brought us, Sheldon and Leonard in the Gang.
(34:17):
He got his start working as a writer for Jim Henson.
That's all you need to know to appreciate this story.
But it doesn't hurt if you remember nineteen eighty seven. Enjoy.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
This is Bill Prady, and this is a memory I
wanted to share with you. On November sixth, nineteen eighty seven,
after a devastating stock market crash, the Muppets appeared on
a special town hall edition of ABC's Nightline in segments
designed to explain the financial system. I wrote those segments,
and I hadn't thought about them in years until John
(34:49):
Oliver aired one of them recently on Last Week Tonight.
In nineteen eighty seven, I had my first professional job
as a writer. I was a computer programmer when I
dropped out of college and moved to New York. But
a series of the kind of decisions you make in
your twenties had landed me at the Muppets. I was
a production assistant that I worked in the licensing department,
(35:10):
and then I became a staff writer with a portfolio
of miscellany funny box copy for the Swedish chef Cerial
that was me dial a muppet sketches me a statement
to the press from Miss Piggy Me. One of the
things I certainly wasn't focused on as a twenty seven
year old writing for A Frog and a Pig was
(35:31):
the stock market. On October nineteenth, nineteen eighty seven, the
US stock market crashed. The Dow fell twenty three percent,
wreaking havoc on the economy. Ted Kopple, the host of
ABC's Nightline, began production on a special to look at
the crisis in depth. Realizing that an understanding of some
of the basics was essential, he wondered if the Muppets
(35:54):
would be available to handle the task. I have two
favorite parts of this story. The first is the phone
call between Ted Copple and Jim Henson. If you weren't there,
I should let you know that nineteen eighty seven was
a fairly primitive time. We hadn't yet started to walk
around with the Internet in our pockets. Jim's office got
(36:15):
a message that Copple wanted to speak to him, but
Jim wasn't going to be reachable. That day. We were
shooting public service announcements for the National Wildlife Federation on
location in Central Park. ABC told Jim's office that that
wouldn't be a problem. They would send a mobile phone
into Central Park. Sure enough, in the middle of that afternoon,
(36:36):
a production assistant from ABC found us in the woods
off the Great Lawn. He opened up a large aluminum briefcase,
extended an antenna, and moments later the thing rang While
we watched in awe Like the Apes in two thousand
and one, a Space Odyssey, Copple explained to Jim what
he wanted, short funny bits explaining basic terms like bull market,
(36:59):
bear market, margin, call, contrarian, etc. Jim turned to me,
you got this. I got this, I said. The next day,
I was off to the New York Public Library to
learn about the stock market again. It was nineteen eighty seven.
In nineteen eighty seven, Wikipedia was a building you went
(37:20):
to filled with books and people. I'd been told that
Jim and Frank Oz would perform the pieces, so I
wrote them for their characters. Jim would perform Kermit and
Roff the Dog. Frank would perform Fozzy Bear, Miss Piggy,
and a few others. The pieces were short and as
funny as I could make them. While conveying the content,
we headed over to ABC News Headquarters on West sixty
(37:42):
sixth Street to shoot. Our set department had built a
miniature version of then anchor Peter Jennings's desk, and the
Puppet Workshop dressed Kermit in a smart Newsy blue blazer.
As we walked in, Jim remarked that the studio we
were in, ABC Studio One, had been the home of
The Jimmy Dean Show, airing from nineteen sixty three to
(38:03):
nineteen sixty six. The Jimmy Dean Show featured Jim's puppet Rolf.
It was the first regular network appearance of a Muppet character.
The studio wasn't ideal for shooting puppets. Although we had
a desk in the correct scale, there really wasn't a
good setup for the puppeteers. Jim and Frank had to
wedge themselves uncomfortably under and behind it. We worked as
(38:26):
quickly as we could. Fozzy Bear explained bear markets, and
Miss Picky took umbrage at Ted Copple's commodities question about
pork bellies. A grumpy old puppet identified himself as a
contrarian and then proceeded to disagree with everyone. Ralf smashed
apples to illustrate the market takes a beating, and then
(38:47):
a camera broke, and that led to my second favorite
part of this story. Because they were wedged in, Jim
and Frank stayed in place while a technician worked to
the camera back to life. To stay loose, they did
what puppeteers often do between takes. They kept the puppets
up and alive. Jim had Rolf the dog on his arm,
(39:10):
and Frank was puppeteering Sam Eagle. Rolf looked around, you know,
he began in his rough canine growl. We used to
shoot the old Jimmy Dean show. Here, Sam Eagle put
his wing to his head and feigned exhaustion. Oh hell,
he said, here come the Jimmy Dean stories. And then
(39:33):
the most amazing piece of improve ensued. When you think
about Kermit and Peggy, or Ralf and Pozzi, you forget
that they were brought to life by one of the
greatest comedy teams ever, Jim Henson and Frank Oz. There
in ABC Studio one. Frank Sam began the piece, inventing
a story he'd heard from Rolf for years. Jim's Ralph
(39:54):
repeated what Sam said, but he did it like he
wasn't listening, like a needle had just dropped into a groove.
I was just a little pulp, said Sam mockingly. I
was just a little pup, began Ralph. Looking for my
first break, moans Sam. Looking for my first break, said
Ralph brightly. So I wandered in off the streets of
(40:16):
New York. So I wandered in off the streets of
New York through an open door, side Sam, through an
open door, continued Ralph. And so, with friend leading and
Jim pretending not to follow, we heard the story of
a dog breaking into TV. The ABC News team, who
had largely been ignoring us, stopped working and drifted over
(40:38):
to watch the bird and the dog continued. The director
sidled up to the camera technician and asked when it
would be fixed. Oh, we've been ready for a while,
the fellow said, I just didn't want to stop the show. Nowadays,
if something amazing and magical happened like an American eagle
exhaustedly sitting through the reminiscences of his dog friend, there
(41:02):
would be iPhone videos from twenty different angles posted all
over the Internet. But in a world where portable phones
come in aluminum briefcases that moment only exists in the
memories of the people who were there. Thanks John Oliver
for unburying this one and bringing it to mine.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review
at the podcast platform of your choice. We love to
hear from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and
sign up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and
don't forget to tune in next week for another episode
of Strictly Business.
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of media and entertainment. I'm
Cynthia Lyttleton, co editor in chief of Variety Today. My
guest is Ben Silverman, chairman and co CEO of Propagate Content.
It's not an exaggeration to say that Ben helped shape
(00:29):
the modern TV business, and in this episode we drill
down deep into how an independent production venture such as
Propagate makes money. Coin Moolah, Cheddar Greenbacks, dead Presidents. We
are talking about money. How do companies like Propagate prosper
(00:49):
Ben goes there happily, and that's one of the reasons
why I've enjoyed covering him over the years. Propagate is
busy in TV and film. It has talent management interests
and is increasingly active in managing and setting up brand
partnerships for social media creators. Rewind the tape about twenty
(01:10):
five years. Ben was a savvy William Morris agent who
helped producer Michael Davies bring who Wants to Be a
Millionaire to America, saving ABC in the process. He did
a lot of very creative deals and was ahead of
the curve in working with brands to help finance content.
In the natural way of these things, Ben eventually lit
(01:33):
out of the ten percentary world to launch his own
production banner, Reavely. That company yielded such shows as The Office,
Ugly Betty and The Tutors. We talk about what happened
with Revey years ago as we go through the twists
and turns of the journey that led Ben to Propagate Content,
(01:54):
and of course we talk a little bit about those
two momentous years two thousand and seven Towan when Ben
ran programming for NBC. After the conversation with Ben, please
stay tuned for a real treat from my friend writ
or Bill Prady. Bill was watching John Oliver on Last
Week Tonight the other day and a very meaningful moment
(02:17):
from his past came up totally out of the blue.
It inspired Bill to revisit one of those one of
a kind eyewitness to history experiences that you're lucky to
have if you're lucky enough to work in show business.
That's all coming up after this break, and we're back
(02:45):
with my conversation with Ben Silverman of Propagate Content. Ben Silverman,
chairman and co CEO of Propagate Content. Thanks for joining me.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
Absolutely, Cynthia, great to see you.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
You are about ten years now into the gate you
launched it in early twenty fifteen. I want to talk
about the different strands of your business, the content production,
the social media management that you're getting into, your different investments.
But let's start at the core business of producing TV
and film and documentary content. You do a wide range
(03:18):
of genres. Where are your biggest opportunities to make money?
Right now? How does Propagate make money?
Speaker 2 (03:25):
Well? I always felt like, you know, the hits find
money and success creates opportunity. I do see there are
places we can take risk. So we have a partnership
in our documentary business called Buttermilk that actually has a
funding source that we utilize to invest in documentaries, and
(03:48):
there we can look at okay, we are fully funding
this documentary, like our upcoming Boy George Culture Club documentary,
which will be premiering at Tribeca June fifth, is a
film that now through that premiere process, could be sold
to the highest bidder. It doesn't just get consumed by
(04:09):
a platform and they dictate the terms. It's something that
can create a competitive subset around that piece of property.
Because we invested in it because we made it and
took that risk. There should be more of a reward
and better economic terms associated with So we've built a
slate of extraordinary documentaries that we do that way, and
those have some arbitrage and upside in the financial part
(04:33):
of those films happening and risk because if they don't
get one hundred percent return on their investment, are our
partner and investor and we lose money. And so it's
you know, it's risk taking, but it's risk taking I
think on a measured and smart scale because documentaries don't
cost as much as episodes of Game of Thrones, so
(04:54):
it makes it an easier bet for an independent company.
Then on the other side.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Let me stop you there and say is it licensing?
Is it the pure licensing fees? Is there any other
model other than you produce a film and you license
it to a streamer, you put it in the box office.
Are the brands coming into this business? I'm pressing you
on how you make money?
Speaker 2 (05:16):
So inside that business you can go to all those lanes.
We could choose to theatrically distribute it through partners and
then window it and then control the actual ip and
copyright on it because we fully funded it, and so
that we're licensing it for maybe a term, you know,
three years, five years, two years, and licensing it through
(05:37):
our own international distribution group around the world, and then
building cycles of revenue and windows and library value. Where
I think documentaries were considered more disposable years ago, they're
now showing real staying power in their actual terminal value
and residual value. And as we have these hyper competitive
(06:00):
streamers playing cops and robbers with each other, there's this
opportunity to potentially license that content as they set up
walls between themselves and how they buy content or produce
content and build those kind of vertically integrated platforms, So
that becomes an opportunity and a way to make money.
(06:22):
Another way is to build out premium content that you
just produce for a fee with upside if it gets
picked up for multiple seasons in the streaming world. And
that shows like our upcoming stick which we're making for Apple,
Lulu the Rhinoceros, the kids show we're making for Apple,
which comes out in May twenty ninth, that comes out
June fourth, starring Owen Wilson, set in the golf world,
(06:45):
and then those are just about can we get longevity.
Can we build in a bonus based fee structure that
if we hit a season three, four or five, we're
getting some back ends that kind of kick in, even
though those shows are likely to only remain within the
Apple ecosystem, there are incentives for us to obviously deliver
(07:07):
the most premium content possible, but also bonuses and revenue.
They don't look like or compared to having an off
network syndicated monster, but they do provide upside and cash.
And you're taking only development and executive risk, you're not
taking physical production risks. Then there are shows like the
one we're making. We have a show that should be
(07:30):
announced soon for Fox Broadcasting where it's a real upside opportunity. Right,
we make a fee on that show that will air
on Fox, and Fox likely will be the studio partner
as well on it, but they will license it around
the world to maximize revenue everywhere they can. They will
look to license and maximize revenue as well within the
(07:53):
North American windows off of Fox Broadcasting. And so then
suddenly you have a real chance for economic upside and
value creation beyond just the first run of that show.
And if you get to that place where you get
success in multiple episodes, there's a chance to sell it
(08:13):
around the world to different buyers and make significant back ends.
Then we also continue to do reality television and where
those shows have international format potential or opportunities to kind
of integrate or build businesses connected to them, I think
are great chances for us to make money as well.
(08:37):
And across that whole group of content, we continue, as
you know, we always have to work with advertisers. So
can we light up a little more revenue with an
advertising partner? Can we light up more revenue with a
merchandising opportunity? Right stick is set in the world of golf.
There's so many people interested in golf and being connected
to the golf consumer, and there are so many opportunities
(08:59):
for golf actual merchandising opportunities. Can we unlock that. Lulua
the Rhinoceros is a kid's show, can we unlock the
value that based on a book that comes with a
animated show, or the voice of that show is the
young woman who is Mawana and you know, so there's
(09:19):
a music soundtrack in that show. Can we unlock value
in that participation? So all of those piece of content
have different versions of financial return. None of them today
other than probably the broadcasting one or the animated one,
have like the kind of massive potential upside that we
(09:40):
had making TV shows in the nineties and odds.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
So now to get to that sort of scale that
you need, you really do need a certain volume.
Speaker 2 (09:50):
You need a volume, and you need chips on the
table and bets, and you need to think through as
smartly as you can. Whatevery deal looks like for where
that upside lies. Right In an animated show, the upside
lies and merchandising and soundtrack.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
In a.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Reality show, it's format and advertising dollars. You have to
look at them all around. Where is the value creation opportunity?
And the fact is the streamers have kind of shut
their walls a little bit, so it's hard to exploit
outside of the platforms.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
In a case like your animated show, Do you own that?
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Because it was based on a book that we partnered on.
Apple owns all of the television show, but we are
partners in the merchandising and the soundtrack, and so it's
thinking through things as you enter those deals based on
how powerful is the underlying ip in that case it's
based on a book called Little of the Rhinoceros that
was a bestseller and pre existed, and the writers of
that book, who also helped adapt the show, as the
(10:49):
writers of the script. You know, we're very clear we
have value here. And so that that was a negotiation
where both sides participate, both sides of upside and you
could sass be making Little Lulu stuffies and T shirts
and soundtracks and all that that goes with a big
animated hit and then and then with some of these others,
(11:11):
there may be less merchandising opportunity like a documentary, but
there may be upside an opportunity and that you financed
it and can actually own the IP. And what we're seeing,
like with some of our untold franchise that we make
for Netflix, is real opportunity to actually exploit the doc
ep the way you would have exploited the non fiction book.
(11:31):
So we're turning our film about the Dan Barry Thrashers
crimes and penalties into a movie with Netflix. We're working
on a film based on our Johnny Manziel documentary Johnny
Football that we made for Netflix. So and have a
major movie star attached. So you're able to kind of
build those into IP, their self funding IP and with
(11:54):
a little profit. But then there's this greater upside down
the road because you've actually got a piece of IP
that can translate the way that nonfiction books did fifteen
twenty years ago.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
In the span of Propagate. All of what you just
discussed is very much how business is done in twenty
twenty five, but very different to how was done. What's
it been like to kind of have this perch and
watch the content business both explode in size and global scope,
but also now in the last couple of years post strike,
(12:26):
it's also contracting well.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
I think for us, we've been consciously diversified, always entrepreneurial, creative,
lad and we have not burned money like so many
of our peers who when this system kind of retracted
a little bit, they were forced into mergers, they were
forced into sales, they were forced into bankruptcies, you know.
(12:49):
And so we have been able to remain profitable and
self sustaining after a lyft from our initial investors at
A and E and RAIN, And that obviously is a
differentiation to who we are and our independence, but it's
also because we've invested across genre. We were never genre
specific when I started in the nineties to age myself, like,
(13:13):
you know, no one you were a game show producer,
you were a documentary producer, you were a sitcom producer.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
It was very rigid. It was very rigid, and.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
I broke all those walls down right. I was doing
my first eighteen months of my first company. I was
doing the Tutors, The Biggest Loser, Ugly Betty, and the Office.
There was no pigeonholing, you know what we did. And
so I think that was very valuable for us inside
our business. And Howard Owens and Drew Buckley, who've worked
(13:45):
with me for a long time, are of that same
mold and model, and so we had a lot of
ability to work across multiple genres and a lot of
relationships that we could manifest into great content in multiple genres.
So I think that's very valuable because when you have
a strike, you can make a reality show when you
have when you have a downturn in one side of
(14:08):
the business, you're able to produce more efficiently in the other.
When you when you have documentaries as a passion and
then it explodes into a business, you're sitting there in
a first driver's seat because you made the nine to
eleven with the Nowadays who we've now done in nine
films with, and you have worked with the net first
scene on Hillary and now she's doing our Sam Banking Free.
You've you we represented Kenya Barris through Artists First and
(14:31):
we're able to put him into our Jerry West documentary.
So you're able to really do things, I think uniquely
that come from the diversity of content we produce in
our and are turned on by.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
At what point did you hit the break even mark?
Like how many years in did you get to the
point where you could take a breath and like, you know,
see that revenue was coming in.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
We really used capital to acquire businesses, specifically investments in
Artists First and Authentic and Select the management companies and Electis,
which was my old company that produced Chopped and actually
had investments in those companies. And so we really use
(15:14):
the capital to create the acquisitions that led to us
being profitable and break even. And that was how we
used the capital as opposed to just funding content or
development or executives. And we've had expansion retrenchment, expansion retrenchment
(15:36):
and a lot of that happened with the marketplace transformation
as you mentioned, between Strike and then you know, just
the retrenchment and then the challenges that a lot of
the players have had from Paramount to Max and beyond
to continue to invest. And I'm really hopeful that new
(15:57):
investment will arrive as we see companies like Paramount figure
themselves out. When this merger is finally done, I think
that's going to be a big stimulus into the industry.
I think what NBC Universal is doing and spinning out
under Mark Lazarus, this new cable company as a pure
play and then having Peacock in the studio be more
(16:19):
pure played, like, I think that's going to unlock opportunity.
So I see some moves on the horizon that will
unlock opportunity. And I see the reorganization at Amazon unlocking
much smarter, better investment. And I see the Apple you
know shows being so good that I think they'll continue
to look to deliver on the promise of these great
(16:43):
shows that they're making right now.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Are A and E Networks and Rain are they still
in as investors?
Speaker 2 (16:48):
They are. They are both investors in the company, and
we do a lot of content with Annie.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
You can see where you're going with the diversification from
everything from talent man management to trying to wrap your
arms around the world of social media creators. Let me
just ask you some of the same questions I just
asked you about content these days. Where's the sweet spot
for making money in the business of representing social media creators.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
There's really two big lifts, but three if you include
some of the success we've had migrating some of that
talent into mainstream TV and streaming. But it's a series
of you know, micro transactions going on all year long
where they're selling advertising basically to people who want to
(17:38):
connect directly to an audience through an influencer or you know,
marketing person, and so that's a sequence of revenue that
just continues to grow. As people look to invest in
social media, they like to invest through authentic voices that
can communicate. So we have, you know, a large pool
(17:59):
of those kind of people that you can talk to
an audience and consumer directly. And if you're a beverage company,
a tea company, a haircare company, a fitness brand, you
can utilize those influencers and pay them to do that,
and they are basically monetizing their access and their authenticity
(18:19):
to connect to their audience and consumer. So that's one bucket.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
And let me just ask you like those numbers. I know,
you know years ago it was there was sort of
a scale for people and it was, you know, four
figures and five figures. But these numbers are a lot
bigger nowadays.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Correct, The numbers are growing as the migration of audience
is not watching and I'm sure you know the stat's
eight hours of television, they're on six hours of social
and four hours of television because a lot of it
is dual happening at the same time. And so you're
watching these numbers shift. You're watching them shift even more
aggressively demographic based. You know, a seventy year old is
(18:58):
actually also on social, but no near as much as
a twenty year old, And so you're watching this massive
demographic utility shift. So as the audience moves and the
consumer moves, so too does the advertiser. And this is
a perfect means to connect directly with consumer and directly
with audience in an authentic way. So those numbers grow.
(19:18):
The numbers grow as the influencer and talent communicates to
a larger group of people. And it grows just in
how we are using those services and those platforms with
more and more time and attention.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
Then can I just ask you, is that a ten
percent business or is that structured all kinds of different ways.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
It's a little higher because the work is so much
work because you're not doing like necessarily one brand deal
for the whole year. Some of these some of these
are fifty to one hundred deals per per influencer happening
over the course of the year. It is so much
work for those manager salespeople like their managers growing their
(20:04):
careers and advising, and then they're also out there literally
selling these clients. So it's like these two roles in one.
So it warrants a larger piece because it's really hard
to do and it takes a ton of work. We
also can migrate some of the ones who have ambition
(20:25):
for being in a TV show or movie to another
medium through our network and relationships. So the select team
identified the Mormon wives and that's become a massive hit
for them that they're now producing. We place Georgia Berger,
one of our executives who we trained to propagate, was
a former assistant a nine years ago and knew the
(20:45):
television and entertainment set. We put her inside Select and
so she's there working with Lisa and the team there
to kind of mine opportunities from their clients also to
migrate them to television, and then it becomes a great
flywheel all of the Kardashians where they're social grows, their
television growth and advertiser and brand interest grows. Then another
lane for that world is that we're also able to
(21:06):
develop out actual brands with those clients. Like Mindy McKnight,
who's represented there, has a hair product business called Heritage
that does incredibly well inside Walmart. So you have this
little kind of almost venture world going on, and you've
seen it with so many celebrities, but these influencers really
doing it organically and directly with their consumer building out
(21:29):
actual brands as well directly. So we have a credible
barbecue company with Anthony Anderson and Cedric the entertainer. On
the more traditional entertainment side. The opportunity to unlock that
opportunity is big. So you can feed a television show,
you can run these micro transactions and keep the lights
on and grow their businesses and help and keep them
(21:51):
fed and raising their families, and then you can have
these upsides into this brand creation where where there's interest,
engagement and organic authentic opportunity. So I really like that business.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Does Propagate have a piece of that company or does
Propagate benefit from the client has more revenue coming in
and you commission that revenue.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
All different, so some we invest in, some we build,
some we incubate, some we just commission. So it's a
range of opportunities that we look to with the clients
whatever they want or whatever help they need. Some of
them we have to actually build. Sometimes we bring the
idea to the client and co invest or sometimes we
(22:35):
just help source the opportunity from an investment on the outside,
or maybe they need somebody who can merchandise or somebody
who can build it, or someone who can manufacture it.
So it's all different. Some of them are pure commission
based based tied to the revenue that comes out of
what our managers help advise them to accomplish. And then
others are ones where we've actually come up with the
(22:58):
idea packaged in the talent, invest it along and built
it with them so that they there's a range to it,
just like a kind of it's like a mini venture
portfolio of different structures inside the company. Now I have
a whole thesis about our entire business that was from
the start of the day we opened it. That's only
(23:18):
which is where content creates culture comes commerce, And is
that content the influencer? Is that content the TV show?
But where we're driving culture drives commerce, and that is
an amazing opportunity that's been unlocked through the technological transformation
(23:39):
of how the Internet allows us to talk one to one,
one to many.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Let's talk about some shows. You're wearing a stick hat.
Let's use stick microcosm example. First of all, what made
you say yes to pursuing this? And tell me about
sort of the evolution of stick and why it makes
sense for Propagate to do this show.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Well, whenever I'm talking to a real estate developer or
venture capitalist or private equity investor, I always do explain
that our world is actually very similar and one really
clear cut way. Each one of our shows, as you
point out, is its own business, with its own CEO
and its own staff. You know, so you work with
(24:22):
it a creator like I have had the privilege of
working with Jason Keller on this. You ID eight and
create together and build out a pitch and a process
to go take it to market to get somebody. And
in this case, I was wildly passionate about it because
I loved Jason's work and had worked on a couple
shows prior to it with him that we had developed
(24:44):
but not gotten produced, but also loved the idea of
doing an emotionally grounded comedy and a lot of it's
inspired by his own father. And then we end up
pitching it out. Apple is very interested in it. They
end up investing in the script, which is like the
kind of first phase of their venture investment. We get
(25:05):
the script written, and now we need to get a
kind of bible and series arec written because they like
the script enough so they have Jason do that, and
then who is going to be stick? And that becomes
the entire next step of the process, which is, we
have material, We have an opportunity because everyone's liked the material,
Now can we get somebody to come in and be
(25:27):
our star? And Owen Wilson was who we wanted to
do this, and he had never done TV like this
before in his whole career. We felt it was like
a huge exciting get but also a role that he
would just do so well and bring so much of
his incredible talent to and so we were able to
get Owen excited. Then we write the rest of the
(25:49):
episodes and build the writer's room and start hiring more
creative people. Then we bring in our production designers and
production scouts and start figuring out where we're going to
shoot it. Then we have our producers and our physical
producers here are going to make sure that we know
how to pay for it and can execute it. And
so you're sitting there with the show center kind of
overseeing this now growing army of executives and people working
(26:13):
on this series that you started with one other person
and now has expanded to one hundred and fifty other people,
not even including you know, extras and you know film
production and TV production elements. And that's kind of the process,
and it's a complicated one. It's an intense one. Any
(26:35):
piece of it goes wrong and it falls off the rails,
and any element that you bring in can disrupt and
break it. You cast the wrong person, you hire the
wrong directors, you bring in the wrong DP. You know,
there's so many of those roles that have to mesh
perfectly to build out something. And I want to say
(26:57):
one thing. Both Jason and Owen, though are player coaches,
they were both the kind of people who knew how
to communicate, articulate, lead by example, show up first, leave last,
and then you kind of people follow you in line.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
What does a home run for Stick look like for you?
On Apple?
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I believe that show is award worthy. I think that
Owen's performance is singular and superlative as well as the writing.
So I truly believe that that show should be able
to be validated in an award circle. But I also
see it as a four quadrant show. It's a show
(27:37):
that has aspirational and warmth to it that I think
it can find a big audience inside the Apple sphere,
and so I think it could be measured by success
in how it does with its cohorts Apple, and I
think it can be further validated with its with its
(28:01):
potential like ted Lasso had in actually getting accolades from
the Globes or the MS.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Let me ask you about ninety minuto. So you've got
a Spanish language comedy coming to Peacock may twenty second.
Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
So we developed this early on when there was a
just different strategy at the platform where T Plus was
kind of going to be its own thing.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
That ended up Telemundo, the Nbcundo Spanish language network.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Yes, was going to kind of do its own kind
of premium Spanish language work, just like kind of Vix
was going to do with television continues to do and
so now it's shifted to Telemundo. But we love Spanish
language content. We've had great success in doing English language
US Hispanic content like Jane the Virgin and Ugly Betty.
(28:51):
We've got a big Latin division and focus a lot
of time and energy on it. I really enjoy collaborating
with brilliant Latin storytellers, writers, creators, actors, actresses, and this
came out of that and is a really strong comedy
set in the world of soccer. That's the ninety minutes part,
and I think could break out into something that the
(29:14):
English language audience would also watch because we're seeing barriers drop.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Anything else, And you'd like to mention.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
One of the things that I'm super excited about on
the twentieth anniversary of the Office is that we'll be
launching a new show in the Office universe called The
Paper with Peacock, which I'm really excited for and I
think as long as the modern audience can show the
same patients it showed and twenty years ago. It is
an extraordinary cast and brilliantly realized comedic series that I
(29:45):
think people are going to just love and has all
the heart and energy and warmth that the original had,
plus actors and actresses that you didn't know before.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Do you have a timetable for that?
Speaker 2 (29:58):
They will announce hopefully this upfront, which you'd give you
an indication, but it'll it should be on before It'll
be twenty five, so which will be great. And I
can't wait because it's so fun and I think people
are going to love it. And then beyond that, we
got a Jerry West documentary being directed by Kenya Barriss.
(30:18):
Wh've got this great untold franchise, and we've got Sam
bankmin Free being directed by the net First team who
did Kids Stays in the Picture and it's such a
wonderful and they Elizabeth Taylor and I such a wonderful
filmmaking collaborative of ours. So a lot of really good
stuff coming out to propagate across genre, across platform. I'm
(30:40):
excited for all our talent to shine.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Ben. Thank you for this very candid conversation. I appreciate it.
Let me wind up with just a couple of fast
ones here. You've mentioned the office and ugly Betty and tutors.
That was when you were running a company called Revelly,
when you got hired by a little company called NBC
Universal and you sold that company. Do you regret selling? Really?
Speaker 2 (31:03):
I not only regret selling Revely. My children don't even
realize how much I regret selling it. At the time,
people thought I sold it for a lot of money,
but they had no idea what was inside that company.
It could have been paid back with a quarter of
the office, and I really do regret it. We were
just so ahead. I would have turned that company into
(31:24):
something extraordinary. Could have used it in the same way
that like David Ellison's using sky Dance and maybe ended
up owning Paramount. So I do regret it. But I
also learned so much at NBCUniversal and met so many
different kinds of people that I don't think I necessarily
(31:44):
would have met through the journey had I just stuck
with Revely.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Was there a world where you could have structured it differently.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
I put it into a blind trust. I did everything
I was supposed to do, even though when I had
conceived of the deal my plan was to step back
into it. I was made to sell it, really sold
it on a phone call. I never marketed it, took
it out, didn't do anything. I didn't even understand values.
And then I discovered later that it was purchased by
somebody who just used a bank to buy it for
(32:12):
them through the projections of the business, which I hadn't
even done. So it absolutely was a lot of naevite
on my side, and I should have held stronger.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Is there any world where you would still be on
the executive track?
Speaker 2 (32:27):
No? I quit that job because it gave me a
stomach ache. I need to be free and run free
and control of my own destiny. And I also I
really don't like I didn't like being inside an organization,
any organization where I was limited in following through on
(32:50):
creativity that may have turned me on. Like I love
that I could make a food show for the Food Network.
I could make a great comedy for Apple. I could
do all documentary for Netflix and Amazon. I like the
diversity of content. I'm able to pursue un filtered, and
I got frustrated that I had to conform to like
(33:10):
certain buckets of kind of content were the only ones
at that time that the network made, or if I
migrated to a different place than someone else made, you know,
and I don't think I have ted Surandus's stamina to
just to work twenty four hours a day, like inside
that kind of business from that perspective where you kind
(33:31):
of end up having to become almost a political figure,
not just a creative figure or an entrepreneurial figure. So
I am definitely made the right choice to leave there.
I made the wrong choice to sell Ben.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Thank you so much for going through all this. Really
appreciate your caming.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Be continued, Cynthia anytime now for the treat that I
promised you at the start of this episode.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
My friend Bill Prady reached out to me the other
day with a memory he wanted to share. As soon
as he started talking, I knew I wanted him to
record it for strictly business. Bill is a veteran comedy
writer and co creator of a show that is always
airing somewhere in the world, The Big Bang Theory. Many
years before Bill brought us, Sheldon and Leonard in the Gang.
(34:17):
He got his start working as a writer for Jim Henson.
That's all you need to know to appreciate this story.
But it doesn't hurt if you remember nineteen eighty seven. Enjoy.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
This is Bill Prady, and this is a memory I
wanted to share with you. On November sixth, nineteen eighty seven,
after a devastating stock market crash, the Muppets appeared on
a special town hall edition of ABC's Nightline in segments
designed to explain the financial system. I wrote those segments,
and I hadn't thought about them in years until John
(34:49):
Oliver aired one of them recently on Last Week Tonight.
In nineteen eighty seven, I had my first professional job
as a writer. I was a computer programmer when I
dropped out of college and moved to New York. But
a series of the kind of decisions you make in
your twenties had landed me at the Muppets. I was
a production assistant that I worked in the licensing department,
(35:10):
and then I became a staff writer with a portfolio
of miscellany funny box copy for the Swedish chef Cerial
that was me dial a muppet sketches me a statement
to the press from Miss Piggy Me. One of the
things I certainly wasn't focused on as a twenty seven
year old writing for A Frog and a Pig was
(35:31):
the stock market. On October nineteenth, nineteen eighty seven, the
US stock market crashed. The Dow fell twenty three percent,
wreaking havoc on the economy. Ted Kopple, the host of
ABC's Nightline, began production on a special to look at
the crisis in depth. Realizing that an understanding of some
of the basics was essential, he wondered if the Muppets
(35:54):
would be available to handle the task. I have two
favorite parts of this story. The first is the phone
call between Ted Copple and Jim Henson. If you weren't there,
I should let you know that nineteen eighty seven was
a fairly primitive time. We hadn't yet started to walk
around with the Internet in our pockets. Jim's office got
(36:15):
a message that Copple wanted to speak to him, but
Jim wasn't going to be reachable. That day. We were
shooting public service announcements for the National Wildlife Federation on
location in Central Park. ABC told Jim's office that that
wouldn't be a problem. They would send a mobile phone
into Central Park. Sure enough, in the middle of that afternoon,
(36:36):
a production assistant from ABC found us in the woods
off the Great Lawn. He opened up a large aluminum briefcase,
extended an antenna, and moments later the thing rang While
we watched in awe Like the Apes in two thousand
and one, a Space Odyssey, Copple explained to Jim what
he wanted, short funny bits explaining basic terms like bull market,
(36:59):
bear market, margin, call, contrarian, etc. Jim turned to me,
you got this. I got this, I said. The next day,
I was off to the New York Public Library to
learn about the stock market again. It was nineteen eighty seven.
In nineteen eighty seven, Wikipedia was a building you went
(37:20):
to filled with books and people. I'd been told that
Jim and Frank Oz would perform the pieces, so I
wrote them for their characters. Jim would perform Kermit and
Roff the Dog. Frank would perform Fozzy Bear, Miss Piggy,
and a few others. The pieces were short and as
funny as I could make them. While conveying the content,
we headed over to ABC News Headquarters on West sixty
(37:42):
sixth Street to shoot. Our set department had built a
miniature version of then anchor Peter Jennings's desk, and the
Puppet Workshop dressed Kermit in a smart Newsy blue blazer.
As we walked in, Jim remarked that the studio we
were in, ABC Studio One, had been the home of
The Jimmy Dean Show, airing from nineteen sixty three to
(38:03):
nineteen sixty six. The Jimmy Dean Show featured Jim's puppet Rolf.
It was the first regular network appearance of a Muppet character.
The studio wasn't ideal for shooting puppets. Although we had
a desk in the correct scale, there really wasn't a
good setup for the puppeteers. Jim and Frank had to
wedge themselves uncomfortably under and behind it. We worked as
(38:26):
quickly as we could. Fozzy Bear explained bear markets, and
Miss Picky took umbrage at Ted Copple's commodities question about
pork bellies. A grumpy old puppet identified himself as a
contrarian and then proceeded to disagree with everyone. Ralf smashed
apples to illustrate the market takes a beating, and then
(38:47):
a camera broke, and that led to my second favorite
part of this story. Because they were wedged in, Jim
and Frank stayed in place while a technician worked to
the camera back to life. To stay loose, they did
what puppeteers often do between takes. They kept the puppets
up and alive. Jim had Rolf the dog on his arm,
(39:10):
and Frank was puppeteering Sam Eagle. Rolf looked around, you know,
he began in his rough canine growl. We used to
shoot the old Jimmy Dean show. Here, Sam Eagle put
his wing to his head and feigned exhaustion. Oh hell,
he said, here come the Jimmy Dean stories. And then
(39:33):
the most amazing piece of improve ensued. When you think
about Kermit and Peggy, or Ralf and Pozzi, you forget
that they were brought to life by one of the
greatest comedy teams ever, Jim Henson and Frank Oz. There
in ABC Studio one. Frank Sam began the piece, inventing
a story he'd heard from Rolf for years. Jim's Ralph
(39:54):
repeated what Sam said, but he did it like he
wasn't listening, like a needle had just dropped into a groove.
I was just a little pulp, said Sam mockingly. I
was just a little pup, began Ralph. Looking for my
first break, moans Sam. Looking for my first break, said
Ralph brightly. So I wandered in off the streets of
(40:16):
New York. So I wandered in off the streets of
New York through an open door, side Sam, through an
open door, continued Ralph. And so, with friend leading and
Jim pretending not to follow, we heard the story of
a dog breaking into TV. The ABC News team, who
had largely been ignoring us, stopped working and drifted over
(40:38):
to watch the bird and the dog continued. The director
sidled up to the camera technician and asked when it
would be fixed. Oh, we've been ready for a while,
the fellow said, I just didn't want to stop the show. Nowadays,
if something amazing and magical happened like an American eagle
exhaustedly sitting through the reminiscences of his dog friend, there
(41:02):
would be iPhone videos from twenty different angles posted all
over the Internet. But in a world where portable phones
come in aluminum briefcases that moment only exists in the
memories of the people who were there. Thanks John Oliver
for unburying this one and bringing it to mine.
Speaker 1 (41:25):
Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review
at the podcast platform of your choice. We love to
hear from listeners. Please go to Variety dot com and
sign up for the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and
don't forget to tune in next week for another episode
of Strictly Business.
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