September 5, 2025 • 21 mins
Eric Sandler, chief strategy officer for Pushkin Industries, details the business vision for the premium audio studio that was founded in 2018 by Malcolm Gladwell and Jacob Weisberg. It’s home to great series such as Gladwell’s "Revisionist History" and “Against the Rules,” hosted by author Michael Lewis. Sandler details the company’s creator-first strategy of nurturing shows and talent.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton,
co editor in chief of Variety Today. My guest is
Eric Sandler, chief strategy officer for Pushkin Industries. If you
love great narrative podcasts, you know this audio signature that
(00:27):
opens Pushkin titles Pushkin. Pushkin is one of podcasting's premium studios.
It was co founded in twenty eighteen by Malcolm Gladwell
and Jake Weisberg. It's home to great series such as
Gladwell's Revisionist History and Against the Rules, hosted by author
(00:51):
Michael Lewis. Sandler and I discussed the macro environment for
podcasting and audio entertainment. He also details the company's creator
first strategy of nurturing shows and talent across all media platforms.
Fans of The Big Short should get ready for a
big tenth anniversary look back at the movie based on
(01:11):
Lewis's book that captured all the drama that tanked the
housing market. Pushkin will release The Big Short as an
audiobook for the first time, narrated by Lewis and Lewis
will host a companion podcast series that will revisit the
key events and key players, and Sandler explains why there's
a lot more to come from one of podcasting's hottest shops.
Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review
(01:34):
on the podcast platform of your choice. Please go to
Variety dot com and sign up for the free weekly
Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in next
week for another episode of Strictly Business. Eric Sandler, chief
Strategy Officer for Pushkin Industries, thank you so much for
joining me.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Well, I'm a Pushkin fan. You do my kind of podcast,
very thoughtful, very heady, really interesting, deep dives into corners
of his that I didn't know about. One of my
favorites is Lost Hills from the Great Dana Goodyear. Terrific
investigative reporting. I could go on, Eric, I want to talk.
You have some news, you have a broad new slate,
(02:12):
some really interesting stuff coming. I wanted to talk firstuf
about the macro podcasting environment. Where are you seeing the
most pockets of growth, the biggest opportunities for your top titles.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
The industry has been around for quite a few years now,
but in some ways it still feels really new. You
still have people who have never listened to a podcast,
even though that percentage is shrinking at this point. And
I think what we find is that quality matters, right,
The more quality storytelling you put out, the more audience
you will grow from there. But there's been some turmoil
(02:47):
in the industry and some changes to the models of
how things are consumed, but I don't think that that
actually takes away from the core mission of what we
do at Pushkin, which is telling stories that entertain people, informed,
pace people, make people think about things in a different way.
Malcolm Gladwater, co founder, always like to say that if
you want to make someone think about something, then he'll
(03:09):
write it in a book. If he wants to make
someone feel something, he'll put it into audio. There's just
such an impactful element to the overall medium.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I find just as a consumer, it's a different way
to absorb especially complicated information. So just a bit in
the hardcore business of Pushkin, you have a mix of
ad supported. Podcasting is very ad supported, but you also
do have a subscription platform as well.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
That's correct, We're ad supported across our podcast billso have
push im network wide subscription. We're off for ad pre content.
We offer binge opportunities, early access, bonus content. Another pillar
of what we do is audiobooks, though which of you
here pushing So many of our hosts and our creators
are also authors, and that's what pushkin was born out of.
(03:53):
And so we see a really cohesive audience across podcasts
and audiobooks. And there's a really interesting pipe line that
we're creating, which is a space that used to be
held by magazines and newspapers. And this is something that
Malcolm's thought a lot about, which is, you know, when
he wrote The Tipping Point, his first book, it was
first an article in The New Yorker, and there were
(04:14):
so many of his peers that were growing up in
this industry that was building them to be the next
best selling authors, the next PEP script writers, the next
movie script writers. That ecosystem has changed and podcasting is
filling that space. And so what we see is the
ability to take podcast series that's a couple episodes and
then expanded into an audiobook and a print book and
(04:35):
a TV film option as well. So an example that
would be Malcolm's Bomber Mafia series. It starts four episodes
in Revision's history A couple of years ago got turned
into an audiobook and we did a little bit of
a reversal of the pipeline and we sold the print
rights and that got optioned by A twenty four for
a TV film, And so we want to create more
opportunities for more storytellers to use this as a testing
(04:58):
ground for content really drive home really impactful stories and
be able to explore the funnel in a different way.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Of the of the different of the different sort of
tranches of business. Is there one where is there one
that is like your biggest growth driver?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
At this time, ads continued to be a huge part
of our business. I would say audiobooks is right up there,
and subscriptions is growing. What we see is that there's
not as much overlap between books and podcasts as you
might assume, and so things that are put out as
a podcast can also be turned into a book in
an interesting way. And that's not cannibalizing the audience. It's
(05:34):
finding new audience and new places that people listen the
other side of our business, in addition to add support
it is full branded podcast. So we do a really
great one with IBM called Smart Talks with IBM, hosted
by Malcolm. It's an amazing show that has narrative audio episodes,
it has live events, it has video companions alongside with it.
(05:56):
And what we see is that creating great content is
the core of what we want to do, whether that's
branded content, whether that's ad sport podcast, whether that's audio books,
and the audience comes to it. We did one with
Puma and Tracksmith a couple of years ago as well,
and it was named one of the ten best podcasts
the Year by the New York Times. As a branded podcast,
it just happened to be so good that the audience
(06:16):
came for it. And that's the type of thing that
we're looking to expand on.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Part of the news that we're talking about today is
you have re upped your Pushkin Industry's relationship with iHeart Podcasts,
who you've had at partnership for about five years. Are
there things that you've been able to do in tandem
with iHeart that you don't think you would have been
able to do on your own over these last five
years that have been a very momentous time for podcasts
(06:40):
listening I.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Heart is a remarkable partner for us, and they continue
to really excel it at scale and distribution as well
as positioning pushkin as a premium ad sales opportunity. So
our partnership with at IBM is alongside with iHeart as well,
and they continue to treat us as a network with
premium storytelling that can bring that to brands, and their
(07:03):
ability to do that has increased year over year. Like,
they really understand what we're about. It's not a faceless organization, right.
The people who work there really understand audio. They really
understand podcasting.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
When you're talking to people. Is there still a lot
of education to be done about audio?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I think lest I would say the education portion is
how to execute in the best way. There's a lot
of ways in which you can execute an audio, whether
that's a straight outread or a host read, or a
pre record or custom mid role or branded segments or
a custom episode or a full series or live events
or video. What we try to do is to guide
folks through the process in terms of what's the what's
(07:41):
their desired outcome? Right, Like we talk to a brand
who is doing one thing in video and trying to
translate that to audio with the same assets. Audio is
a distinct medium with a distinct relationship with consumers, and
so where we excel is translating that for them.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
As a listener, you could tell that Michael Lewis and
Malcolm Guidwa are not just reading the cards. They are
invested within the partnership with iHeart. Are you able to
still be a free agent in other areas like content licensing?
If somebody comes to you or you want to pitch
a movie from one of your podcasts, is are you
a free agent in that? Or is there an iHeart
relationship that continues there?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
iHeart is there exclusive ads, a notnization partner across our
podcast What that means is the dynamic odd opportunities across
our inventory are handled by iHeart. But in terms of
the IP and the audiobooks and things like that, Push
Can remains independent. Then we're creatively independent as well, and
so we remain sort of best of both worlds. Like
(08:38):
we had this wonderful partnership with iHeart that's so fruitful,
and we continue to grow there, but we also continue
to grow independently across audiobooks and TV film and other
licensing opportunities.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
It sounds like you have the hef to fund your
own development, you can. You could invest in something and
experiment before you take it wider.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Absolutely, we do co productions with iHeart as well, which
are awesome shows like Risky Business, What's Your Problem? Where's Dia?
But we also fund our own development as well.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
What do you find really allows you to break through
the vast expanse. Obviously a name like a Malcolm glad
Will Michael Lewis that's going to stand apart because of
their personal brands. But in a situation if you're trying
something's less known, what have you found is effective to
help to help launch a new property with somebody that
doesn't already bring an audience to the table.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
We work with a lot of great creators who are
already established, whether that's in the book world, whether that's
in the movie world, whether that's in the music world.
That's true of some of our creators, but that's not
true of all of our creators. We believe in great
storytellers and we build that internally as well. In our
false slate. We have a show called The Chinatown Thing
and it's hosted LJ. Kott. She's been a producer over
(09:50):
the last few years on Michael Lewis's podcast Against the
Worlds and she perid in the last It's part Handling
season as well. So we like to grow talent within Pushkin. No,
it really speaks to our network.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Do you have a basic volume of titles that you
want to have in a given year or a given
and half year. Do you think about it along those
lines in terms of in terms of organizing your sleep.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
No, not necessarily a volume. We have quite a few
ongoing shows that work on different cadences. We have always
on shows. We have shows that comes easily, we have
shows that are bi weekly, We have shows on sort
of all different candences, and we want to continue growing
new shows and giving those new shows opportunities in the network.
Do we want to be financially responsible in our investments
(10:31):
and balancing what we can support as a network while
also being ambitious, right, we want to be able to
support the titles that we put out. We don't want
to put something in the marketplace and then go, oh,
we don't really have the resources to stand this up
in the way that we would have hoped. I never
want to be in that situation, and so you'll see
new shows coming next year, and yes, that includes new
limited narratives. Yes that includes new weeklies. Yes that includes
(10:53):
shows that are on video and shows that are audio only.
But finding that balance is what we're always seeking to
do for the audience. Like I was listening to the
show a couple of weeks ago and you're speaking about
the Paramountain Skydance merger. At one of your guests made
a point at the end which was so pointed, which
was that we can talk about the money, we can
talk about the business, but it's the storytelling in the
stories that people need. And I feel totally aligned with that.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Going back to cave paintings, I think the evidence is
pretty clear. And thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
That's great, we love it.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
That's a good segue. So two of your boldest names
in the Pushkin firmament have new projects coming. Malcolm Book
Glagwell is back with a new season of revisionist history,
this time taking on capital punishment, looking at a case
that played out in Alabama and looking at the situations
and the dynamics that inform this very difficult subject. When
(11:44):
you have a new Malcolm project that's really like a
tenth poll for you, you are pulling out all the stops.
I'm sure to get this up. Can you give us
a sense of how this will be rolled out?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
And I was talking to Malcolm recently and he made
the comment that he thought this could be one of
the best things he's done since starting Push Gap. It's
really remarkable sixty years later, right. I think the thing
that continues to amaze me is that the content gets
better and better. You think about the tip of the
life cycle of a hit in media, right and something
to grow, and then it sustains and then maybe it
drops off a little bit. The fact that the creators
(12:15):
that we work with, Malcolm, specifically our creating content that
gets better and better is absolutely remarkable to me. We
also have Jake Halprin on the network, who Variety named
one of the ten storytellers to watch for twenty twenty five,
and you just publish the sixth season in Deep Cover
and it hit number one for the first time. Like that,
show continues to get better and better and better. I
can't wait for next season, which coming in twenty twenty
(12:37):
Sikes as well. I think this season, specifically for Malcolm,
will be something new for folks which will be really interesting.
It's not quite true crime, but it has elements of
the true crime series that people are familiar with in
the Malcolm style that gets his message across. So it's
gonna be seven episodes and it's launching October second, and
(12:58):
you'll see quite a bit of around that. Of course
Malcolm will be speaking about. It's a hefty topic we contextualized.
It'll be promoted across the Pushkin network as well as iHeart.
You'll see some live activations with Malcolm as well.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Also about Michael Lewis. Is hard to believe ten years
since The Big Short. I remember seeing that in the
theater and it was so inventive in the storytelling form
of the film. So as if I understand this right,
Pushkin is going to re release The Big Short as
an audio book. As part of that, Michael Lewis is
going to host a companion series as part of his
(13:32):
ongoing Against the Rules series that will launch October fourteenth.
And look back now at ten years since The Big Short,
What's changed? What's not? It sounds so good. Everything I
know about the mortgage crisis came from The Big Short,
the book which I devoured and the movie which I
have seen at least twice. Is this the kind of
thing that now you're going to use this to bring
(13:53):
attention to other new shows.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
This is one of the coolest projects that we do
with Michael, honestly, and it speaks to the depth of
the content that the creators we work with make, like
this is not disposable things that you listen to once
so you never return. It's almost like a content pipeline reversal.
Fifteen years ago, it was a best selling book, ten
years ago as an Oscar winning film, and next month
(14:15):
it's going to be a Companion podcast with an audiobook,
which he never did when back in the day when
he wrote the book, and so the first audiobook he's
done of The Big Short and what we saw unfold
in the events of the Big Short are playing out
in government today right. It's still as relevant today as
it was when he wrote it, and so the ability
to go back and reflect on the on the Companion
podcast alongside the new audiobook is something that we're so
(14:38):
excited about. We did it with with his first book,
Liar's Poker, a couple of years ago. Yes, yes, and more.
Of course we'll continue to do that over the next
few years as well, really excited about building that overall
series with Michael as well, and the companion podcast is
gonna be amazing. He's talking to folks who are involved
in the film and the real life inspirations for the characters.
So I think you'll come away with something completely new
(14:59):
from the cit of it.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You earlier mentioned an upcoming title called The Chinatown Sting,
a six episode limited series that is premiering September sixteenth.
It's from Lydia Jean Caught. Anybody who listened to Michael
Lewis's podcast coverage of the Sam Bankman freed trial knows
Lydia Jean. She was a star of that series and
(15:21):
can't wait for her to dive into its late nineteen
eighties Manhattan's Chinatown, massive undercovered drug busts. Sounds like a
lot of things to revisit, and of course there's a
whole subgenre now of looking back at crime and things
through the lens of today and how institutional racism and
many other factors influenced social justice and criminal justice. This
(15:44):
must also be fulfilling for you to have somebody come
from the grassroots to now doing her own show.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Absolutely, it's so refreshing to see her grow as the
producer of Against the Rules with Michael and then coming
and pitching her own story and reporting it out coming
this massively talented storyteller, and we're doing a live event
with her at a Maajong parlor with Michael interviewing LJ,
alongside a bunch of big short events too. So it
(16:10):
really shows the network of fact of Pushkin. You're going
to see more and more amazing storytellers come out of
the Pushkin network, and LJ is just the beginning of it.
Justin Richmond on Broken Record was as Recruitment's producer and
Malcolm's producer, and there's just so many memes that are
coming up that that folks will become familiar with over
the coming months and years, and we're thrilled to be
(16:32):
a place that that can actually happen.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
You have a number of other titles coming listeners. You
can read a whole separate story about this on Variety
dot com. Right now, Eric, before I let you go,
anything here out of these that are coming that you'd
like particularly like to highlight. Is there anything that amounts
to a new genre or a new initiative for the company.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'd say Heavyweight Heavyweight Heavyweight. We are so thrilled that
Heavyweight joined the Pushkin network. It came up through the
Spotify ranks, and production had stopped about a year and
a half ago, and we just couldn't let Heavyweight go.
I always joke internally that I never have anyone that
I speak to who says I like Heavyweight. It's either
you've never heard of Heavyweight, or this is your favorite
(17:13):
show of all time. It is such an amazing journey
that it takes listeners on, and I think there's something
so special about investing in stories that unfold over time.
Some of the stories coming out this season have literally
been in the hopper and being reported for years. Maybe
there was one last interview they needed that just didn't happen,
or they never thought would happen, and they put it
to the side, and then all of a sudden, it happens.
(17:36):
That's the type of special storytelling that we want to
make sure there's room for in the industry and continue
to support. I think listeners and podcast folks in general
would just be heartbroken to see this go away. And
so that's the type of work that we want to support,
and I'm so excited to be working with Jonathan, but
we're thrilled to be bringing a new season of that
coming shortly a couple of weeks here.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Well, I'm in the former category of haven't heard of
it that I will definitelytify that. You raise a good
point that the investigative, the depth of the reporting that
is done here at takes time, and obviously that takes
money because journalists and podcasters and writers got to eat.
How do people juggle the demands of doing the kind
of depth that you bring to the ear versus you know,
(18:17):
making a living.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
We strive to support the monetization increasingly and find economic
models that work for creators. And so that's a benefit
of being at the network that we are today, right,
We really believe in this. There's a dramatic statement going
on in the overall audio industry of the narrative podcasting
is gone and everything has to be chat and interview
and video.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Cares the thought.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I just don't think that's true, and that's not what
we're seeing happen at Pushkin. We want to give creators
the opportunity to continue to report out premium stories and
that bears out in the marketplace, like creating that funnel
so that a narrative series can become a book, can
become a TV show or movie. We're getting calls, it
feels like every week now from TV studios, movie studios,
(19:04):
major book publishers looking at those stories because they really
hit the emotional tones.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
There's journalists out there pumping their fists. Eric, that is
exactly what people want to hear, which is supporting quality,
giving people the time to do the work. Any journalist
will tell you the more time you can spend reporting
a story, researching a story, the richer the final product,
no question, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
And I think the way in which we're able to
enable that is building this audience that knows what to expect,
right like when we launch a new show, when we
launch a new project, there is that Pushkin audience that
is there and they're hungry for it, and that continues
to grow and grow and get more opportunities.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Eric, My last question for you is the name Pushkin.
Alexander Pushkin was a very colorful figure, a literary figure,
a poet and writer active in Russia in the early
eighteen hundreds. He met an Alexander Hamilton like end in
a duel. I'm curious, do you know the origin story
of what why they called it Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
There are a lot of names quoted around in our
conference rooms in our office are still named after other
Russian poets and other folks at Pushkin represents a multicultural
creator who wasn't afraid to shift the boundaries and explore
storytelling and creativity whatever that format may look like. And
that goes to the core of how Pushkin Industries was
(20:24):
started and the type of work that we want to do.
We want to blow the lines between genres and formats,
and we want to have diverse voices across our network,
and we want to create content that stands with est
the time and also makes a real impact in people.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Really looking forward to diving into the new slate. Eric,
thank you Specs for having me. Thanks for listening. Be
sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts or
Amazon Music. We love to hear from listeners.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Please go to Variety dot com and sign up for
the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to
tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.
Mm HM
Welcome to Strictly Business, Variety's weekly podcast featuring conversations with
industry leaders about the business of entertainment. I'm Cynthia Littleton,
co editor in chief of Variety Today. My guest is
Eric Sandler, chief strategy officer for Pushkin Industries. If you
love great narrative podcasts, you know this audio signature that
(00:27):
opens Pushkin titles Pushkin. Pushkin is one of podcasting's premium studios.
It was co founded in twenty eighteen by Malcolm Gladwell
and Jake Weisberg. It's home to great series such as
Gladwell's Revisionist History and Against the Rules, hosted by author
(00:51):
Michael Lewis. Sandler and I discussed the macro environment for
podcasting and audio entertainment. He also details the company's creator
first strategy of nurturing shows and talent across all media platforms.
Fans of The Big Short should get ready for a
big tenth anniversary look back at the movie based on
(01:11):
Lewis's book that captured all the drama that tanked the
housing market. Pushkin will release The Big Short as an
audiobook for the first time, narrated by Lewis and Lewis
will host a companion podcast series that will revisit the
key events and key players, and Sandler explains why there's
a lot more to come from one of podcasting's hottest shops.
Thanks for listening. Be sure to leave us a review
(01:34):
on the podcast platform of your choice. Please go to
Variety dot com and sign up for the free weekly
Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to tune in next
week for another episode of Strictly Business. Eric Sandler, chief
Strategy Officer for Pushkin Industries, thank you so much for
joining me.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Well, I'm a Pushkin fan. You do my kind of podcast,
very thoughtful, very heady, really interesting, deep dives into corners
of his that I didn't know about. One of my
favorites is Lost Hills from the Great Dana Goodyear. Terrific
investigative reporting. I could go on, Eric, I want to talk.
You have some news, you have a broad new slate,
(02:12):
some really interesting stuff coming. I wanted to talk firstuf
about the macro podcasting environment. Where are you seeing the
most pockets of growth, the biggest opportunities for your top titles.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
The industry has been around for quite a few years now,
but in some ways it still feels really new. You
still have people who have never listened to a podcast,
even though that percentage is shrinking at this point. And
I think what we find is that quality matters, right,
The more quality storytelling you put out, the more audience
you will grow from there. But there's been some turmoil
(02:47):
in the industry and some changes to the models of
how things are consumed, but I don't think that that
actually takes away from the core mission of what we
do at Pushkin, which is telling stories that entertain people, informed,
pace people, make people think about things in a different way.
Malcolm Gladwater, co founder, always like to say that if
you want to make someone think about something, then he'll
(03:09):
write it in a book. If he wants to make
someone feel something, he'll put it into audio. There's just
such an impactful element to the overall medium.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I find just as a consumer, it's a different way
to absorb especially complicated information. So just a bit in
the hardcore business of Pushkin, you have a mix of
ad supported. Podcasting is very ad supported, but you also
do have a subscription platform as well.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
That's correct, We're ad supported across our podcast billso have
push im network wide subscription. We're off for ad pre content.
We offer binge opportunities, early access, bonus content. Another pillar
of what we do is audiobooks, though which of you
here pushing So many of our hosts and our creators
are also authors, and that's what pushkin was born out of.
(03:53):
And so we see a really cohesive audience across podcasts
and audiobooks. And there's a really interesting pipe line that
we're creating, which is a space that used to be
held by magazines and newspapers. And this is something that
Malcolm's thought a lot about, which is, you know, when
he wrote The Tipping Point, his first book, it was
first an article in The New Yorker, and there were
(04:14):
so many of his peers that were growing up in
this industry that was building them to be the next
best selling authors, the next PEP script writers, the next
movie script writers. That ecosystem has changed and podcasting is
filling that space. And so what we see is the
ability to take podcast series that's a couple episodes and
then expanded into an audiobook and a print book and
(04:35):
a TV film option as well. So an example that
would be Malcolm's Bomber Mafia series. It starts four episodes
in Revision's history A couple of years ago got turned
into an audiobook and we did a little bit of
a reversal of the pipeline and we sold the print
rights and that got optioned by A twenty four for
a TV film, And so we want to create more
opportunities for more storytellers to use this as a testing
(04:58):
ground for content really drive home really impactful stories and
be able to explore the funnel in a different way.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Of the of the different of the different sort of
tranches of business. Is there one where is there one
that is like your biggest growth driver?
Speaker 2 (05:14):
At this time, ads continued to be a huge part
of our business. I would say audiobooks is right up there,
and subscriptions is growing. What we see is that there's
not as much overlap between books and podcasts as you
might assume, and so things that are put out as
a podcast can also be turned into a book in
an interesting way. And that's not cannibalizing the audience. It's
(05:34):
finding new audience and new places that people listen the
other side of our business, in addition to add support
it is full branded podcast. So we do a really
great one with IBM called Smart Talks with IBM, hosted
by Malcolm. It's an amazing show that has narrative audio episodes,
it has live events, it has video companions alongside with it.
(05:56):
And what we see is that creating great content is
the core of what we want to do, whether that's
branded content, whether that's ad sport podcast, whether that's audio books,
and the audience comes to it. We did one with
Puma and Tracksmith a couple of years ago as well,
and it was named one of the ten best podcasts
the Year by the New York Times. As a branded podcast,
it just happened to be so good that the audience
(06:16):
came for it. And that's the type of thing that
we're looking to expand on.
Speaker 1 (06:19):
Part of the news that we're talking about today is
you have re upped your Pushkin Industry's relationship with iHeart Podcasts,
who you've had at partnership for about five years. Are
there things that you've been able to do in tandem
with iHeart that you don't think you would have been
able to do on your own over these last five
years that have been a very momentous time for podcasts
(06:40):
listening I.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Heart is a remarkable partner for us, and they continue
to really excel it at scale and distribution as well
as positioning pushkin as a premium ad sales opportunity. So
our partnership with at IBM is alongside with iHeart as well,
and they continue to treat us as a network with
premium storytelling that can bring that to brands, and their
(07:03):
ability to do that has increased year over year. Like,
they really understand what we're about. It's not a faceless organization, right.
The people who work there really understand audio. They really
understand podcasting.
Speaker 1 (07:14):
When you're talking to people. Is there still a lot
of education to be done about audio?
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I think lest I would say the education portion is
how to execute in the best way. There's a lot
of ways in which you can execute an audio, whether
that's a straight outread or a host read, or a
pre record or custom mid role or branded segments or
a custom episode or a full series or live events
or video. What we try to do is to guide
folks through the process in terms of what's the what's
(07:41):
their desired outcome? Right, Like we talk to a brand
who is doing one thing in video and trying to
translate that to audio with the same assets. Audio is
a distinct medium with a distinct relationship with consumers, and
so where we excel is translating that for them.
Speaker 1 (07:56):
As a listener, you could tell that Michael Lewis and
Malcolm Guidwa are not just reading the cards. They are
invested within the partnership with iHeart. Are you able to
still be a free agent in other areas like content licensing?
If somebody comes to you or you want to pitch
a movie from one of your podcasts, is are you
a free agent in that? Or is there an iHeart
relationship that continues there?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
iHeart is there exclusive ads, a notnization partner across our
podcast What that means is the dynamic odd opportunities across
our inventory are handled by iHeart. But in terms of
the IP and the audiobooks and things like that, Push
Can remains independent. Then we're creatively independent as well, and
so we remain sort of best of both worlds. Like
(08:38):
we had this wonderful partnership with iHeart that's so fruitful,
and we continue to grow there, but we also continue
to grow independently across audiobooks and TV film and other
licensing opportunities.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
It sounds like you have the hef to fund your
own development, you can. You could invest in something and
experiment before you take it wider.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Absolutely, we do co productions with iHeart as well, which
are awesome shows like Risky Business, What's Your Problem? Where's Dia?
But we also fund our own development as well.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
What do you find really allows you to break through
the vast expanse. Obviously a name like a Malcolm glad
Will Michael Lewis that's going to stand apart because of
their personal brands. But in a situation if you're trying
something's less known, what have you found is effective to
help to help launch a new property with somebody that
doesn't already bring an audience to the table.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
We work with a lot of great creators who are
already established, whether that's in the book world, whether that's
in the movie world, whether that's in the music world.
That's true of some of our creators, but that's not
true of all of our creators. We believe in great
storytellers and we build that internally as well. In our
false slate. We have a show called The Chinatown Thing
and it's hosted LJ. Kott. She's been a producer over
(09:50):
the last few years on Michael Lewis's podcast Against the
Worlds and she perid in the last It's part Handling
season as well. So we like to grow talent within Pushkin. No,
it really speaks to our network.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Do you have a basic volume of titles that you
want to have in a given year or a given
and half year. Do you think about it along those
lines in terms of in terms of organizing your sleep.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
No, not necessarily a volume. We have quite a few
ongoing shows that work on different cadences. We have always
on shows. We have shows that comes easily, we have
shows that are bi weekly, We have shows on sort
of all different candences, and we want to continue growing
new shows and giving those new shows opportunities in the network.
Do we want to be financially responsible in our investments
(10:31):
and balancing what we can support as a network while
also being ambitious, right, we want to be able to
support the titles that we put out. We don't want
to put something in the marketplace and then go, oh,
we don't really have the resources to stand this up
in the way that we would have hoped. I never
want to be in that situation, and so you'll see
new shows coming next year, and yes, that includes new
limited narratives. Yes that includes new weeklies. Yes that includes
(10:53):
shows that are on video and shows that are audio only.
But finding that balance is what we're always seeking to
do for the audience. Like I was listening to the
show a couple of weeks ago and you're speaking about
the Paramountain Skydance merger. At one of your guests made
a point at the end which was so pointed, which
was that we can talk about the money, we can
talk about the business, but it's the storytelling in the
stories that people need. And I feel totally aligned with that.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
Going back to cave paintings, I think the evidence is
pretty clear. And thank you for listening.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
That's great, we love it.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
That's a good segue. So two of your boldest names
in the Pushkin firmament have new projects coming. Malcolm Book
Glagwell is back with a new season of revisionist history,
this time taking on capital punishment, looking at a case
that played out in Alabama and looking at the situations
and the dynamics that inform this very difficult subject. When
(11:44):
you have a new Malcolm project that's really like a
tenth poll for you, you are pulling out all the stops.
I'm sure to get this up. Can you give us
a sense of how this will be rolled out?
Speaker 2 (11:54):
And I was talking to Malcolm recently and he made
the comment that he thought this could be one of
the best things he's done since starting Push Gap. It's
really remarkable sixty years later, right. I think the thing
that continues to amaze me is that the content gets
better and better. You think about the tip of the
life cycle of a hit in media, right and something
to grow, and then it sustains and then maybe it
drops off a little bit. The fact that the creators
(12:15):
that we work with, Malcolm, specifically our creating content that
gets better and better is absolutely remarkable to me. We
also have Jake Halprin on the network, who Variety named
one of the ten storytellers to watch for twenty twenty five,
and you just publish the sixth season in Deep Cover
and it hit number one for the first time. Like that,
show continues to get better and better and better. I
can't wait for next season, which coming in twenty twenty
(12:37):
Sikes as well. I think this season, specifically for Malcolm,
will be something new for folks which will be really interesting.
It's not quite true crime, but it has elements of
the true crime series that people are familiar with in
the Malcolm style that gets his message across. So it's
gonna be seven episodes and it's launching October second, and
(12:58):
you'll see quite a bit of around that. Of course
Malcolm will be speaking about. It's a hefty topic we contextualized.
It'll be promoted across the Pushkin network as well as iHeart.
You'll see some live activations with Malcolm as well.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Also about Michael Lewis. Is hard to believe ten years
since The Big Short. I remember seeing that in the
theater and it was so inventive in the storytelling form
of the film. So as if I understand this right,
Pushkin is going to re release The Big Short as
an audio book. As part of that, Michael Lewis is
going to host a companion series as part of his
(13:32):
ongoing Against the Rules series that will launch October fourteenth.
And look back now at ten years since The Big Short,
What's changed? What's not? It sounds so good. Everything I
know about the mortgage crisis came from The Big Short,
the book which I devoured and the movie which I
have seen at least twice. Is this the kind of
thing that now you're going to use this to bring
(13:53):
attention to other new shows.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
This is one of the coolest projects that we do
with Michael, honestly, and it speaks to the depth of
the content that the creators we work with make, like
this is not disposable things that you listen to once
so you never return. It's almost like a content pipeline reversal.
Fifteen years ago, it was a best selling book, ten
years ago as an Oscar winning film, and next month
(14:15):
it's going to be a Companion podcast with an audiobook,
which he never did when back in the day when
he wrote the book, and so the first audiobook he's
done of The Big Short and what we saw unfold
in the events of the Big Short are playing out
in government today right. It's still as relevant today as
it was when he wrote it, and so the ability
to go back and reflect on the on the Companion
podcast alongside the new audiobook is something that we're so
(14:38):
excited about. We did it with with his first book,
Liar's Poker, a couple of years ago. Yes, yes, and more.
Of course we'll continue to do that over the next
few years as well, really excited about building that overall
series with Michael as well, and the companion podcast is
gonna be amazing. He's talking to folks who are involved
in the film and the real life inspirations for the characters.
So I think you'll come away with something completely new
(14:59):
from the cit of it.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You earlier mentioned an upcoming title called The Chinatown Sting,
a six episode limited series that is premiering September sixteenth.
It's from Lydia Jean Caught. Anybody who listened to Michael
Lewis's podcast coverage of the Sam Bankman freed trial knows
Lydia Jean. She was a star of that series and
(15:21):
can't wait for her to dive into its late nineteen
eighties Manhattan's Chinatown, massive undercovered drug busts. Sounds like a
lot of things to revisit, and of course there's a
whole subgenre now of looking back at crime and things
through the lens of today and how institutional racism and
many other factors influenced social justice and criminal justice. This
(15:44):
must also be fulfilling for you to have somebody come
from the grassroots to now doing her own show.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
Absolutely, it's so refreshing to see her grow as the
producer of Against the Rules with Michael and then coming
and pitching her own story and reporting it out coming
this massively talented storyteller, and we're doing a live event
with her at a Maajong parlor with Michael interviewing LJ,
alongside a bunch of big short events too. So it
(16:10):
really shows the network of fact of Pushkin. You're going
to see more and more amazing storytellers come out of
the Pushkin network, and LJ is just the beginning of it.
Justin Richmond on Broken Record was as Recruitment's producer and
Malcolm's producer, and there's just so many memes that are
coming up that that folks will become familiar with over
the coming months and years, and we're thrilled to be
(16:32):
a place that that can actually happen.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
You have a number of other titles coming listeners. You
can read a whole separate story about this on Variety
dot com. Right now, Eric, before I let you go,
anything here out of these that are coming that you'd
like particularly like to highlight. Is there anything that amounts
to a new genre or a new initiative for the company.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'd say Heavyweight Heavyweight Heavyweight. We are so thrilled that
Heavyweight joined the Pushkin network. It came up through the
Spotify ranks, and production had stopped about a year and
a half ago, and we just couldn't let Heavyweight go.
I always joke internally that I never have anyone that
I speak to who says I like Heavyweight. It's either
you've never heard of Heavyweight, or this is your favorite
(17:13):
show of all time. It is such an amazing journey
that it takes listeners on, and I think there's something
so special about investing in stories that unfold over time.
Some of the stories coming out this season have literally
been in the hopper and being reported for years. Maybe
there was one last interview they needed that just didn't happen,
or they never thought would happen, and they put it
to the side, and then all of a sudden, it happens.
(17:36):
That's the type of special storytelling that we want to
make sure there's room for in the industry and continue
to support. I think listeners and podcast folks in general
would just be heartbroken to see this go away. And
so that's the type of work that we want to support,
and I'm so excited to be working with Jonathan, but
we're thrilled to be bringing a new season of that
coming shortly a couple of weeks here.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Well, I'm in the former category of haven't heard of
it that I will definitelytify that. You raise a good
point that the investigative, the depth of the reporting that
is done here at takes time, and obviously that takes
money because journalists and podcasters and writers got to eat.
How do people juggle the demands of doing the kind
of depth that you bring to the ear versus you know,
(18:17):
making a living.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
We strive to support the monetization increasingly and find economic
models that work for creators. And so that's a benefit
of being at the network that we are today, right,
We really believe in this. There's a dramatic statement going
on in the overall audio industry of the narrative podcasting
is gone and everything has to be chat and interview
and video.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
Cares the thought.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I just don't think that's true, and that's not what
we're seeing happen at Pushkin. We want to give creators
the opportunity to continue to report out premium stories and
that bears out in the marketplace, like creating that funnel
so that a narrative series can become a book, can
become a TV show or movie. We're getting calls, it
feels like every week now from TV studios, movie studios,
(19:04):
major book publishers looking at those stories because they really
hit the emotional tones.
Speaker 1 (19:09):
There's journalists out there pumping their fists. Eric, that is
exactly what people want to hear, which is supporting quality,
giving people the time to do the work. Any journalist
will tell you the more time you can spend reporting
a story, researching a story, the richer the final product,
no question, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
And I think the way in which we're able to
enable that is building this audience that knows what to expect,
right like when we launch a new show, when we
launch a new project, there is that Pushkin audience that
is there and they're hungry for it, and that continues
to grow and grow and get more opportunities.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
Eric, My last question for you is the name Pushkin.
Alexander Pushkin was a very colorful figure, a literary figure,
a poet and writer active in Russia in the early
eighteen hundreds. He met an Alexander Hamilton like end in
a duel. I'm curious, do you know the origin story
of what why they called it Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
There are a lot of names quoted around in our
conference rooms in our office are still named after other
Russian poets and other folks at Pushkin represents a multicultural
creator who wasn't afraid to shift the boundaries and explore
storytelling and creativity whatever that format may look like. And
that goes to the core of how Pushkin Industries was
(20:24):
started and the type of work that we want to do.
We want to blow the lines between genres and formats,
and we want to have diverse voices across our network,
and we want to create content that stands with est
the time and also makes a real impact in people.
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Really looking forward to diving into the new slate. Eric,
thank you Specs for having me. Thanks for listening. Be
sure to leave us a review at Apple Podcasts or
Amazon Music. We love to hear from listeners.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Please go to Variety dot com and sign up for
the free weekly Strictly Business newsletter, and don't forget to
tune in next week for another episode of Strictly Business.
Mm HM
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