December 2, 2010 • 34 mins
The rules of war are agreed-upon rules that are intended to govern international wars and conflicts. Who developed these rules? And do countries really abide by them? Josh and Chuck take a detailed look at how the rules of war work in this episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know
from House Stuff Works dot Com? Hey, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me is always Charles W.
Chuck Bryant Party and we're recording this is stuff you
(00:25):
should know the aggressive version. Hey dude, Hey, dude, how
are you? I'm tired. Hey, We're almost out of here. Man,
I'm not. Let's wrap this puppy up. I'm not almost
out of here. This is just like the middle of
my day. You're working to like ten, and then you
working Saturday. I'm working Sunday, So are you, Poul? That's right? Um, Chuck? Yes, Josh.
(00:48):
Do you remember when we talked about brainwashing? We did
a brainwashing one, right, Yeah? I enjoyed that one. I
did too. Do you remember we talked about the Koreans
brainwash American Peo dotes that's against the rules the rules
of what the rules of war. I have more examples.
(01:09):
Do you have you ever heard of the dak How massacre,
the Dacha? Yes, yeah, you have the Dacha massacre. Yes
you have, well, I mean you've you secretly told me,
have you seen well, you've seen Shutter Island, right, Yeah.
I didn't realize it was a connection there. Yeah, the
flashbacks where Leonardo DiCaprio is like in the army and
(01:31):
they're at this concentration camp and they're shooting the German guards.
That actually happened, Yes, at Dachau. The American liberators who
came like came and saw this and like, we're apparently
so overwhelmed by it that they lined up the s
S officers against the wall, seventy five of them and
(01:51):
shot him. I guess I didn't know about it then. Yeah, so, um,
it didn't come out until two do one actually that
this actually happened. It was covered up, ignored, but it
was against the rules. I can't do that, ABU great,
remember that one. Yeah, that's been the news that was
against like six or seven different rules, and all of
(02:11):
these are there against the rules of war. It's actually
kind of to me a triumph of the human spirit
to know that there we've tried to figure out how
to create structure insanity in a chaotic and insane institution.
That's why do we look at it? What's another way, Well,
(02:33):
what I was the most struck with was that how
messed up it is that you have to keep revisiting
this over the years because all of these rules that
are in here are there because someone tried to do
something awful to someone else, and that they said you
can't do that in war, right, And so then then
they said, oh, well, then let's think of something else
awful we can do, and then they said, well, you
can't do that now either. Well. In this article that
(02:55):
Julia Layton wrote how the Rules of War work, she
makes the point that as the technology of war progresses,
it usually means that we're going to we are figuring
out more horrible ways to inflict damage on one another.
And so as that happens as technology progresses, the people
who oversee the rules of war are trying to come
(03:17):
up with new ways to stem that progression. Right. But yeah,
that that's a little mopier way of looking at it
than mine. That's weird because you're usually the moupier one.
Usually interesting, Chuck, Let's talk about the rules of war.
Where did they come from? How long have they been around? Well,
they've been around for a long time, but prior to
the nineteenth century, they were established per battle and per
(03:41):
countries participating in that battle, and that was where they
ended there, like for this skirmish where you can do this,
this and this, but you can't do this, this and this.
Once that skirmish was over, or once that war was over,
then they would say, all right, for forget all that then,
and let's just we'll make up a new set of
rules if we fight again. Yeah, And then next time
they were like, no, was scalping. That was messed up
(04:01):
last time, do not scalp in this one. Finally, at
some point, uh, well, actually we know exactly the point. Um.
In eighteen fifty nine, a guy named Henry de Nant,
who went on to found the Red Cross UM and
was one of the was the co recipient of the
first Nobel Prize. I understand, huh. Um came upon a
(04:24):
battlefield after the Battle of Salaferno in Italy in eighteen
fifty nine. That's German and Italian in one podcast. Um.
He came upon this battlefield, I guess right after the
battle that happened, and there were all these dying wounded
soldiers laying around, and he he gathered up the villagers
(04:45):
around the countryside and said, we have to treat these
people and treat everybody both sides because we're human beings
and that's what we do. That's one of the things
that the Red Cross still does today in wars. Their
neutral party, not on either side, the Red Cross and
the Red Crescent um and they treat everybody regardless of
um what side they're on. Sure, right, Um, So that
(05:08):
happened in eighteen fifty nine. It gave birth to the
Red Cross, and it gave birth to the first Geneva Convention, right, yes.
And I think I told you at some point we
were chatting about this that the whole convention aspect of
it kind of cracks me up a little bit because
I always picture like a bunch of world leaders with
their name tags. Hi, my name is kaiserville Helm mulling
(05:28):
about some Hilton conference room. Imagine that's how it went out.
But uh, with the first Geneva Convention, is uh when
they in eighteen sixty four, did you already say that
they started becoming an international thing where it crossed the boundaries,
that crossed the time frames and there were solid rules
(05:50):
for everybody for any more they were just standing rules
of war. That looks more sustinct way saying it. Sure,
and the first, the first Geneva Convention produced the Convention
for the Amelioration of the Edition of the Wounded and
Sick and Armed Forces in the Field. Yeah. Yeah, that
was the first one. Like you said, over time, as
we saw new atrocities take place, they went and created
(06:12):
and amended the existing conventions, created new ones. So there
was a Convention Um that addressed sick shipwrecked members of
the Armed Forces at sea. Yeah. They forgot the seamen
and the first one and they said, yeah, we gotta
think about those guys exactly. There's the rules can governing
the treatment of POW's. And then the fourth Convention Um,
(06:33):
which is ratified in nineteen fifty four, was the treatment
of civilians, not surprisingly shortly after World War two. Yeah,
and actually after World War two that drove the first
Geneva Convention, and actually the first three we're all created
before World War two, um, And people were like, that's
really nice, we like that, it's a great idea. And
(06:54):
then World War two happened and everybody came to the
table under the auspices of the u IN and said
we we need these. So a hundred and ninety countries
have ratified the Geneva Conventions, and you get the impression
that if you want to be recognized as a sovereign
nation internationally, that's one of the steps toward toward being
(07:15):
an independent nations. You got to ratify the Geneva Conventions. Yeah,
otherwise what are you doing? You're just some rogue jerk
jerk country. So that's the Geneva Conventions, and we'll get
more into those later, but they're also everyone's heard of
the Geneva Convention. Not many people have heard of the
Hague Conventions, although they should because they were just as important.
(07:36):
There were the Haguen the Netherlands is where these took place,
and they were called the also called the International Peace Conferences. Yeah,
about the same time that the Geneva Conventions were being held, right, Yeah,
And they had one in seven They were gonna have
one peace conference and then they decided to cancel it
and have a World war instead, and that was World
(07:58):
War One, obviously, and they the hag Conventions fall into
categories of combat, weaponry, property rights, and duties of neutral countries.
But in addition, so a lot of the a lot
of the rules established in the Hage Conventions are similar
to the rules of the Geneva convensions. They overlap, but
one of one of the things that defines the Hague
(08:19):
Conventions specifically is that there are steps outlined to prevent war. Right,
So there's UM two in the lead up the build
up to war. There's steps you have to take too
to be in step legally with the Hag Conventions, which
are there's like a thirty day cooling off period time
out right, UM, arbitration, mediation, liberation, Sorry that was in
(08:44):
access UM Committees of inquiry. Yeah, Basically, you have to
UM also declare war formally, or you have to declare
an ultimatum saying like give me back my sandwich and
pull your troops out of my South Asian territories, or
I'm gonna come at you. And that's after they've gone
through all the previous steps, the thirty day time out
(09:05):
in the corner and everything else has failed. Then you
have to officially send the evite saying we're going to
attack you at some point, not to distance surprise attack
illegal Pearl harbor and actually right, that's illegal. UM. That's
one of the reasons why they the democratic peace theory works.
(09:26):
So democratic peace theories based on the idea that democracies,
especially democracies that follow these conventions, are so transparent that
two democracies will never go to war because they're both
following the same transparent steps in the lead up to war,
and communication will be um much more open um. One
of the you a surprise attack is impossible, not only illegal,
(09:51):
but impossible because they have vibrant independent media. Right, so
so democratic piece theory says that two democracies will never
go to war. I don't know that's necessarily true, but
it's based in part on this Hague convention. Thanks so
combat and weaponry and the Hague Conventions. They're pretty obvious.
Things like you can't fly a white flag and then
(10:14):
shoot someone in the face, which apparently Iraqi soldiers did
in two thousand three in the US invaded. Not very nice. Illegal,
You cannot if a person has surrendered or as injured,
then that's it for them. You can't go shoot them
in the face. I mean, you gotta treat him. While
we'll get to that in a minute too. If a
person has a visible or an audible speech impediment, you
(10:34):
can't make fun of him. That's very true. You can't
attack a defenseless person. You can't like attack a hospital
or a building being used as a hospital. No, that's
what they call using a human shield. And there's a
huge no no, and it's yeah, that's big time jerk
quality right there. Uh. Natural, And see, this is what
(10:55):
I thought was kind of interesting. National and cultural symbols
are protected, So you can't desecrate a flag or use
the enemy's flag. You can like dress up as a
soldier and say I'm really a Nazi, even though all
those movies they always did stuff like that. Yeah, well
it's illegal. Inglorious. Maybe it's sensible, but it's illegal. Yeah.
The whole movie they were dressed up, well not the
whole movie, but a significant portion of it. Yeah, they
(11:16):
dressed his Nazis to kill Nazis. That was a great movie.
It was pretty awesome, Chuck. You also can't hide out
in museums or libraries, well yeah, you can't. Certainly can't
bomb them, just like just like a hospital, they're protected
as well. To talk a little more about later, Um,
and there's certain weapons you can't use. The Higgs specifically,
(11:38):
says Um. The right of belligerents to adopt means of
injuring the enemy is not unlimited. Right, So basically, you
can't use poison bullets, you can't use poison gas, you
can't use weapons that are designed to inflict further harm
beyond the initial injury. Yeah, Like they have those bullets
that once they get inside of you start doing all
(11:59):
sorts of wacky thing for further damage. Like they have
the bow ties that spin around, flapping dickies. Uh. Chemical
and biological warfare is made illegal all the way back in. Yeah.
Sarin gas, chlorine gas, uh, mustard gas, all those are
old timey poison gases. Yeah. Yeah, smallpox can't do that.
(12:22):
So we were talking about wounded and sick. Uh. Basically
the Hague Conventions spells it out pretty clearly. If you're
wounded and you're sick, or if you see us another
soldier an enemy that's wounded or sick, you gotta help him. Yeah,
and we should probably say about at this point that
you can, um, you can break down the Hagen Geneva
Conventions by like combat weaponry treatment a civilian ship, or
(12:43):
you can look at them the rules for overarching as
they apply to the different groups involved, and the group
with the least amount of protection are active combatants, right,
but once you be once you're injured or you're sick
and you're no longer capable of fighting, you slip into
the sick or wounded soldier category and you suddenly enjoy
far more protections than if you have a gun and
(13:06):
you're coming at somebody. Right. Well, yeah, not like I said,
not only can you not uh shoot the guy in
the face, you have to help them or at least
allow them to be helped by like the Red Cross,
right and chuck Like, you can't just walk away right now,
like after a battle. You can't just walk away from
the battlefield after you've won. You can't just release the chows.
(13:26):
Which did you know that that's what childs were originally
bred for in China? Did not know that they would
release them onto the battlefield? They chew the throat side
of survivors. Yes, is that what the suckers are? So
puffy and mean? Um, we used to have childs. Actually
they're not mean, so you, but they are protective. You
can do some damage, true, Um, but you can't release
the child's out in the battlefield. But not only that,
(13:47):
you can't just walk away from the battle field. You
you have to um help injured soldiers. You gotta help
it the injured, and you gotta clean your plate. You
can't just leave the deadline around every No, as a
matter of fact, you have to give the enemy soldiers
that you've killed a burial that's appropriate to their religions.
(14:10):
You're supposed to and at the beginning of every war,
they're supposed to be a graves Registration Service, which is
neutral party like the Red Cross, and it's possibly operated
by the Red Cross. Where you bury a bunch of
soldiers and you say you you contact the graves Registration
Service and say, there's a bunch of dead soldiers here
(14:30):
we killed, and they're buried here and here the coordinates,
and the the graves Registration Service provides each side with these coordinates.
After the wars, the bodies can be exhumed and sent home.
Well yeah, not only that, but you're you're supposed to
return all property found on the body. So you can't
like you see in the movies where you go looting
the body of of trinkets and things to take home
(14:50):
like a broach. Right, let's say you can't do that.
You're supposed to mail that to their next of ken,
which kind of wonder about that how often that happens.
I wonder it myself. You cannot perform experiments on a
wounded or sick person like the Nazis love to do.
That's a big one. Uh. And that's about it for
(15:12):
the second wounded, and it's biological experiments. But I think
also brainwashing sure constitute an experiment, and you're not allowed
to do that either. UM. So let's say that you
have been caught, you you are, you received treatment from
the enemy, um, and they're like, well, you're well, now
(15:33):
you're a pow. Do you still have some pretty wide
um protections? Actually? Yeah, this is a fact at your
next cocktail party that you should pull out of your
hip pocket. You. If you're a pow, you're a prisoner
of the country, not a prisoner of the soldier or
the platoon or the commander in chief of that region.
(15:55):
You're a prisoner of the United States of America if
that's who is fighting against America America. But not only that, um,
your detention is legal under international law. Therefore, an escape
is illegal and can be punished unless you make it
to your other side, to your side, and then they
(16:15):
wipe this slight clean, right, it's totally clean like you
were never captured in the first place. So if you're
a spy and you're caught and your hell is a POW,
you're going to be tried as a spy and possibly hanged.
If you escape two, say an occupied territory that your
army controls, you are your detention is just wiped off
(16:36):
the map. And if you're caught again, say as a
regular soldier, you can't be tried as a spy. It's
like it never happened. Isn't that interesting? That's kind of
cool telling about name rank and serial number. Yeah, you've
you've often heard that in movies. Um, that is definitely
a part of the Third Geneva Convention. But it is
not merely for name identification. But you are awarded privileges
(16:58):
if you are an off sir in europow, Like you
don't have to dig the latrine ditches like the privates
and the corporals do. If you're an officer, you have
a little bit of a I don't know about cush
your life, but you could drink ticket every day. You
can train. But it's like when you see all the
World War two movies, like The Great Escape, the Officers, Um,
(17:19):
they were always had a little bit better deal than
than their men, like they were the ones. Like Hogan's heroes,
Hogan was always meeting with the uh what was with claim?
But the rest of the guys wouldn't meet. It was
always Hogan because he was the main, the main man.
Did you ever see Auto Focus? You're gonna say that
(17:41):
it's hard to watch Hogan's heroes ever again? And auto Focus? God,
I love that. Yeah, it's right up your alley. H
The other thing about POWs is, um they are prisoners,
much like a civilian prisoner would be, and they're innocent
until proven guilty, supposedly, and you have to treat him
as such. Um. So, if you are captured, is a
(18:03):
POW you are, or if you're captured you're required to
grant this person POW status if you're supposed to err
on the side of caution. There's very sure whether they're
POW or not, right, but there's a very specific qualifications
that you have to classify them. If they are obviously
members of the armed force. They can be a member
of a militia or a volunteer corps. Right, still got
(18:26):
to be a pow. Right, they could be some guy
who you who happened to be like carrying a gun
out in the open, and you still have to say
we're going to treat you like a POW until we
set up a tribunal and they say, no, he's not
a POW. Is a common criminal. Members of the media
traveling with the armed forces, they have to be granted
POW status and it's about it a cruise of merchant
(18:49):
marine and civil aircraft they're working with army. One of
the reasons why Abu Grab and the treatment, the degradation
at Abu Grab was so illegal was because these combatants
weren't granted POW status right off the bat. These captured
combatants were treated as criminals. Basically, they were imprisoned. So
(19:11):
that's one. You can't imprison a POW. You can intern
them in an internment camp. Do they have borders, but
not a cell. It's another one. Unless they're like a
specific danger, then you can work around that, which is
probably what they said. Um, you can't subject them to
degrading treatment interrogation. Interrogation basically amounts to you ask him
a question and it's up to them whether they want
(19:32):
to answer it or not. And if they don't want
to answer then you that's it. You can't ask them
again even they can't be coerced or tortured under any
definition of torture. Um, and you can't, um, they can't
their detention can't be paraded in front of the media.
That was another thing too. I mean you remember Lyndy
(19:53):
England right, pointing and like, did you ever see the
mad magazine one? Or is alfredy Newman is now it's again? Um?
So there were several reasons why Abu Gray was just
so horrendous. Well, yeah, and you also have to grant
them any any rights that your own soldiers get like food, water, shelter, clothing, exercise,
(20:14):
correspondence like you have to. You have to let them
know exactly where they are, and you have to make
them available to receive mail from their families. Yeah. Not
only did you have to tell them where they are,
you have to give them the mailing address so that
they can receive care packages, letters, whatever. Crazy So Chuck,
(20:35):
that's POWs right, Ah, yeah, pretty much. Let's talk about civilians.
Do you remember Red Dawn. We've talked about this often.
I should say that recently when we were hanging out
with our friend Chad, he remarked after I said that
I had just recently seen The Fly David Krodenberg's The
Fly for the first time, that he had just seen
Red don for the first time. And you, I thought,
(20:56):
we're gonna beat him up, punch him in the face.
I just don't understand how you could. He's our age
our ages. Yeah, he seems like it. He should have
seen Red Dawn long before this. That's hadn't seen war
games if you were a child, like a teenage boy
in the eighties. So back to it, read Dawn. Well, okay,
(21:18):
so you remember Harry Dean Stanton where Jed and Charlie
Sheen come to Jed and who it was Swayzie and
Jean wasn't. Yeah, but I can't remember Thomas. Did they
all three go? Possibly, but it was definitely Jed and
his brother, Um, And they go to see their father,
who happens to be Harry Dean Stanton. He's in turn.
(21:41):
Notice he's not in a cell. They've put up fencing
around the drive in right, and they're projecting propaganda up
onto the screen and they're playing like Russian Soviet music. Um,
that's legal. Right. When he passes by, I think Arturo's father,
who's getting like a German shepherd to the face. Yeah,
that's highly illegal. Can't use the dogs, No, you can't,
(22:04):
um the chows. No, no child's, no German shops, no
dogs of any kind. Um. When the Russians landed and
opened fire on the unarmed high school students, that's highly
illegal to I mean, they just flat out shot up
that teacher, remember that. Yeah, and that kid too. Yeah,
the kid's hanging out the window. That was one of
the most disturbing images of my young life. Very impactful. See.
(22:25):
I wanted to be a wolverine. Oh yeah, so did I.
And and I guess all little boys like playing war.
But I mean I didn't know I was going to
be a peace nick later on. But at the time, man,
I was like, bring it, I'll get a gun, I'll
go to the woods, pack of football and some canned beans.
I wish that, um, you could take the video of
(22:45):
your life and edit it, because I would make a
montage of all the times I shouted wolverines, like in
the woods. There's a kid. That's what I would do
with my time. It was more than once. Um, so
Red Dawn somewhat on the Soviets took care of the
civilians to a certain extent. They legally interned others, they
(23:06):
illegally attack some with dogs. But um, let's say you
were Darryll's dad, the mayor, and you're riding around with
the the Cuban commander. Right, Um, what what rights do
you have? Is just a general civilian who's not been
deemed a threat? Right, Let's say, could Darryll's dad talk
(23:26):
to Darryl's mom? Is open communication legal? Well? Yeah, it's
it's a basic right that you're supposed to have. It
can be curtailed if they think that there is uh,
could be a detrimental effect on the correspondence. But even
then they allow They law you to tweet basically, yeah,
you're not really tweet, but they allow you like twenty
(23:47):
five words. Right, there's special forms that every occupying force
will have or should have that um, people can fill
out to communicate with one another. Uh if if free
speech is curtailed, yeah, um, and twenty five of those
words have to be freely chosen by the person. You
cannot be removed to another country unless it's for your
(24:08):
own safety as a civilian, and you can't bring in
your people as the occupying force. You can't bring in
your civilians to settle that's right now, You're not allowed
to do that and not allowed to do that. Um.
They can force you to work, but they do have
to pay you, and it can't be work, um like
for your military, like against your own country. Right, you
(24:28):
can't make You can't be made to make bombs that
are gonna be used against your peeps, exactly. And if
you are working and you're not making bombs, you can't
be made to physically punish your own countrymen, if you're
a middle manager forced laborer, and you can force kids
to to work too. Really, and Chuck, it's um illegal
(24:49):
to tattoo civilians for the purposes of identification. Yet another
one that came out of World War Two. Yeah, boy, Hitler.
They just went gaga after that, like with genocide. It
that had never probably well, no, there was genocide before that,
but after Hitler they said, no, we can't do this
genocide thing. So Josh, let's talk about cultural property because
(25:09):
I think it's one of the lesser known aspects of
these conventions. I didn't know about it until I read
this stuff. It's absolutely protected like your museums, your works
of art and science. Like, um, remember when Saddam's statue
was toppled, the American forces couldn't do that. The Iraqi
people did that. But if the Americans had toppled his
(25:31):
statue and like looted his palace, right because like you said, um,
But the Hague and Geneva conventions specifically outlawed genocide, which
is the systematic extermination of a group of people. In
much the same way, the Hague convinces are like, you
can't do that to their culture either, their cultural legacy
and not just statues. Books are included, scientific achievements, works
(25:55):
of art, archaeological areas, and then the buildings that house
these things. Remember we said, like, you can't go hide
out in a museum or library because these are culturally
protected too. Yeah, but it's on the it's on the
state to um provide identification there that these special symbols,
and it's up to the country to to identify these
(26:16):
places as such so they don't get bombed. So what
happens if you break these rules? Let's say you're just like,
you know, I don't want to follow these rules. I
want to I want to shoot this guy's face in
even though he's wounded already. Yeah, I don't like the
way he looked, or he's dating my girlfriend. Are those
awful things you've seen in the in the Vietnam War
(26:38):
movies when one like, uh yeah, when they just go
nuts and just start doing bad, bad things. So neither
the Geneva Convention nor the Head Convention specify what kind
of punishment should be doled out, how offending parties should
be charged. UM. They basically say, hey, everybody who's like
(27:02):
on the side of the law, take these people to the
the international court and then doll out whatever punishment you
think is necessary. So for example, after Nuremberg, UM, before
actually the Geneva Conventions we ratified UM. The the the
I guess, France, Great Britain, in the US and Russia
(27:22):
all formed this international tribunal where they try these Nazi
war criminals and hanged. I think they executed eleven of them.
So in much the same way we formed tribunals for
UM Yugoslavia, the Balkan Moore, UM for Rwanda. But it's
up to the country that has been um uh offended,
(27:44):
it's not offended. It's up to the country that has
been impacted to to do the legwork to make this happen. Like,
there's not some big general body it's gonna say, yeah,
we heard this happen, so we're gonna make sure they
get prosecuted. No, but there is a standing body in
the Hague called the International Criminal Court, and these are
this This body hears these um war crimes trials. This
(28:07):
is where you go to have a war crimes trial,
right um. And there's a lot of debate over the
legitimacy of this body. Some people want this body to
take up more issues than that has Now. Are they
already up and running? Actually I don't think so, but
there's a big movement to get it going. Yes, there
is one that's standing right, the World Court. Basically, do
(28:31):
you know the other cool things? I got one more?
You got anything else? Um? I have a little more,
but go ahead, okay. Uh. One thing I found interesting, Joshures,
is that the these rules don't just apply to the armies,
but militia and volunteer corps. And we'll go back to
red down here. Just for the sake of continuity. If
(28:52):
you have a person in command read don who is that?
Jed Swazy? God rest his soul. Um, if you have
a representative symbol that can be recognized from a distance,
if you spray paint wolverine, since you're representatives. So what
they were doing, they were basically kind of putting themselves
in the corner. They didn't realize it. Um, if they
(29:14):
carry weaponry in the open, Yeah, they definitely did that.
Powers Booth showed him how to do that with effectiveness.
He was the pilot, right, Yeah, he was the guy
that crashed and kind of headed things up for a
little while, and then they got to follow the laws
and customs of war. So if you meet those criteria
as a militia. So if we just formed our own
little pack of how staff forks ruffians, if we were
(29:37):
attacked and we and you are our leader, and we
carried open weaponry, and we had our symbol, which would
be wolverines, clearly then we would be subject to the
same rules as just like we were in the army. Well,
that fourth one in particular is a little ticklish because
it basically says, if you follow the rules of war,
the rules of war apply to you. Yeah, so what
(29:59):
happens if if you don't And we asked this guy, um,
who's a professor of international Law's name is Michael Matheson.
We talked to him actually about from yeah, George Washington University,
and he said we we asked him, like, what how
are these followed? Like how are these enforced? Like why
would anybody follow these if you didn't really have to?
And he basically said, the idea that if you don't
(30:22):
follow him, the other person doesn't doesn't have to, and
all of a sudden you can be tortured UM or
you know, you can be attacked by dogs or humiliated, degraded, whatever, UM.
The slippery slope that forms if you don't follow the
rules of war UM keep both sides in line actually,
and that they're these rules are indoctrinated into the military
(30:46):
rules UM on each side already. So basically, each side
regulates itself in the hopes that the other side will too.
You know what they call the golden rule. That's right,
I'm gonna end up at that all right. If you
want to learn more about the rules of war and
see what the cultural property emblem looks like, we know
where you can find it type Rules of War and
(31:08):
the search part how stuff works dot com. That means
now it's time for the listener mail. Josh, I'm gonna
call this handpicked by you. Yeah, you picked this one out.
It's a good one in the Big day and it
was a really good email. Actually it was on my
list too, So this is from Clovis, and Clovis had
some thoughts on the addiction podcasts that were very relevant
(31:29):
and I think made some great points. Guys in your
podcast on addiction, I thought you treated the issue fairly
with a couple of exceptions. First of all, Josh, you
said that a A was radically successful or something to
that effect. The truth is, no one really knows how
successful it is. It might be successful at helping someone
obtain sobriety for some amount of time, but it might
not be any stronger than if a person just cycles
(31:51):
out of drinking on their own. Also, a a's goal
of lifelong abstinence is a set up for failure to
some studies showing that only about five percent of people
remain completely abstinent for the rest of their lives. UH
Clubus goes on to say, it also seems like you
bought into the idea that UH that was cultivated by
our government that rates use rates are the best measure
(32:13):
of the harms that drugs and prohibition due to our society.
So if use rates are up, that's bad. If down,
if they're down, that's good. Not quite true. Use rates
are actually a terrible way to measure the success or
failure of a drug treatment and drug policy. Meaningful data
would measure the increases and decreases and drug related death, disease, crime,
(32:34):
and suffering. All of these things can be significantly measured
and in some cases even more accurately accurately than self
reported use rates. Use rates are especially useful to politicians
who use this quote unquote evidence to say use rates
are down, we're winning. You should increase our budget to
help keep this fight. Or use rates are down, we're losing,
so you need to increase our budget to put us
(32:56):
to stamp this thing out. So either way, they're trying
to get more money. Uh. And I guess the point
about addiction. That's the point about addiction and treatment. Our
society has defined both way too rigidly. Addiction is really
drug use plus problems. What do we do for those
people who can't use drugs without causing problems the addicts?
We should give them treatment? And treatment can be anything
(33:18):
that works for them. Can be a a can be
heroin assisted treatment, it can be knitting. But if it
lessens the death, disease, crime, and suffering associated with the
drug use, then it should be considered a successful treatment.
Putting them in prison cells is about the worst thing
we can do for them. With all respect, Clovis, Thanks
for that, Clovis, for one of the better emails we've
(33:40):
ever received. I would say, yeah, it was a good one. Uh.
If you have something you'd like to point out to
Chuck and I'm that we've maybe erroneously bought into something
and you want to tell us how it is, we
always love that, Wrap it up and send it to
stuff podcast at how stuff works dot com. Yeah. For
(34:02):
more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how
stuff works dot com. To learn more about the podcast,
click on the podcast icon in the upper right corner
of our homepage. The How Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived.
Download it today on iTunes. Brought to you by the
reinvented two thousand twelve camera. It's ready, are you
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve camera.
It's ready. Are you welcome to Stuff you Should Know
from House Stuff Works dot Com? Hey, and welcome to
the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. With me is always Charles W.
Chuck Bryant Party and we're recording this is stuff you
(00:25):
should know the aggressive version. Hey dude, Hey, dude, how
are you? I'm tired. Hey, We're almost out of here. Man,
I'm not. Let's wrap this puppy up. I'm not almost
out of here. This is just like the middle of
my day. You're working to like ten, and then you
working Saturday. I'm working Sunday, So are you, Poul? That's right? Um, Chuck? Yes, Josh.
(00:48):
Do you remember when we talked about brainwashing? We did
a brainwashing one, right, Yeah? I enjoyed that one. I
did too. Do you remember we talked about the Koreans
brainwash American Peo dotes that's against the rules the rules
of what the rules of war. I have more examples.
(01:09):
Do you have you ever heard of the dak How massacre,
the Dacha? Yes, yeah, you have the Dacha massacre. Yes
you have, well, I mean you've you secretly told me,
have you seen well, you've seen Shutter Island, right, Yeah.
I didn't realize it was a connection there. Yeah, the
flashbacks where Leonardo DiCaprio is like in the army and
(01:31):
they're at this concentration camp and they're shooting the German guards.
That actually happened, Yes, at Dachau. The American liberators who
came like came and saw this and like, we're apparently
so overwhelmed by it that they lined up the s
S officers against the wall, seventy five of them and
(01:51):
shot him. I guess I didn't know about it then. Yeah, so, um,
it didn't come out until two do one actually that
this actually happened. It was covered up, ignored, but it
was against the rules. I can't do that, ABU great,
remember that one. Yeah, that's been the news that was
against like six or seven different rules, and all of
(02:11):
these are there against the rules of war. It's actually
kind of to me a triumph of the human spirit
to know that there we've tried to figure out how
to create structure insanity in a chaotic and insane institution.
That's why do we look at it? What's another way, Well,
(02:33):
what I was the most struck with was that how
messed up it is that you have to keep revisiting
this over the years because all of these rules that
are in here are there because someone tried to do
something awful to someone else, and that they said you
can't do that in war, right, And so then then
they said, oh, well, then let's think of something else
awful we can do, and then they said, well, you
can't do that now either. Well. In this article that
(02:55):
Julia Layton wrote how the Rules of War work, she
makes the point that as the technology of war progresses,
it usually means that we're going to we are figuring
out more horrible ways to inflict damage on one another.
And so as that happens as technology progresses, the people
who oversee the rules of war are trying to come
(03:17):
up with new ways to stem that progression. Right. But yeah,
that that's a little mopier way of looking at it
than mine. That's weird because you're usually the moupier one.
Usually interesting, Chuck, Let's talk about the rules of war.
Where did they come from? How long have they been around? Well,
they've been around for a long time, but prior to
the nineteenth century, they were established per battle and per
(03:41):
countries participating in that battle, and that was where they
ended there, like for this skirmish where you can do this,
this and this, but you can't do this, this and this.
Once that skirmish was over, or once that war was over,
then they would say, all right, for forget all that then,
and let's just we'll make up a new set of
rules if we fight again. Yeah, And then next time
they were like, no, was scalping. That was messed up
(04:01):
last time, do not scalp in this one. Finally, at
some point, uh, well, actually we know exactly the point. Um.
In eighteen fifty nine, a guy named Henry de Nant,
who went on to found the Red Cross UM and
was one of the was the co recipient of the
first Nobel Prize. I understand, huh. Um came upon a
(04:24):
battlefield after the Battle of Salaferno in Italy in eighteen
fifty nine. That's German and Italian in one podcast. Um.
He came upon this battlefield, I guess right after the
battle that happened, and there were all these dying wounded
soldiers laying around, and he he gathered up the villagers
(04:45):
around the countryside and said, we have to treat these
people and treat everybody both sides because we're human beings
and that's what we do. That's one of the things
that the Red Cross still does today in wars. Their
neutral party, not on either side, the Red Cross and
the Red Crescent um and they treat everybody regardless of
um what side they're on. Sure, right, Um, So that
(05:08):
happened in eighteen fifty nine. It gave birth to the
Red Cross, and it gave birth to the first Geneva Convention, right, yes.
And I think I told you at some point we
were chatting about this that the whole convention aspect of
it kind of cracks me up a little bit because
I always picture like a bunch of world leaders with
their name tags. Hi, my name is kaiserville Helm mulling
(05:28):
about some Hilton conference room. Imagine that's how it went out.
But uh, with the first Geneva Convention, is uh when
they in eighteen sixty four, did you already say that
they started becoming an international thing where it crossed the boundaries,
that crossed the time frames and there were solid rules
(05:50):
for everybody for any more they were just standing rules
of war. That looks more sustinct way saying it. Sure,
and the first, the first Geneva Convention produced the Convention
for the Amelioration of the Edition of the Wounded and
Sick and Armed Forces in the Field. Yeah. Yeah, that
was the first one. Like you said, over time, as
we saw new atrocities take place, they went and created
(06:12):
and amended the existing conventions, created new ones. So there
was a Convention Um that addressed sick shipwrecked members of
the Armed Forces at sea. Yeah. They forgot the seamen
and the first one and they said, yeah, we gotta
think about those guys exactly. There's the rules can governing
the treatment of POW's. And then the fourth Convention Um,
(06:33):
which is ratified in nineteen fifty four, was the treatment
of civilians, not surprisingly shortly after World War two. Yeah,
and actually after World War two that drove the first
Geneva Convention, and actually the first three we're all created
before World War two, um, And people were like, that's
really nice, we like that, it's a great idea. And
(06:54):
then World War two happened and everybody came to the
table under the auspices of the u IN and said
we we need these. So a hundred and ninety countries
have ratified the Geneva Conventions, and you get the impression
that if you want to be recognized as a sovereign
nation internationally, that's one of the steps toward toward being
(07:15):
an independent nations. You got to ratify the Geneva Conventions. Yeah,
otherwise what are you doing? You're just some rogue jerk
jerk country. So that's the Geneva Conventions, and we'll get
more into those later, but they're also everyone's heard of
the Geneva Convention. Not many people have heard of the
Hague Conventions, although they should because they were just as important.
(07:36):
There were the Haguen the Netherlands is where these took place,
and they were called the also called the International Peace Conferences. Yeah,
about the same time that the Geneva Conventions were being held, right, Yeah,
And they had one in seven They were gonna have
one peace conference and then they decided to cancel it
and have a World war instead, and that was World
(07:58):
War One, obviously, and they the hag Conventions fall into
categories of combat, weaponry, property rights, and duties of neutral countries.
But in addition, so a lot of the a lot
of the rules established in the Hage Conventions are similar
to the rules of the Geneva convensions. They overlap, but
one of one of the things that defines the Hague
(08:19):
Conventions specifically is that there are steps outlined to prevent war. Right,
So there's UM two in the lead up the build
up to war. There's steps you have to take too
to be in step legally with the Hag Conventions, which
are there's like a thirty day cooling off period time
out right, UM, arbitration, mediation, liberation, Sorry that was in
(08:44):
access UM Committees of inquiry. Yeah, Basically, you have to
UM also declare war formally, or you have to declare
an ultimatum saying like give me back my sandwich and
pull your troops out of my South Asian territories, or
I'm gonna come at you. And that's after they've gone
through all the previous steps, the thirty day time out
(09:05):
in the corner and everything else has failed. Then you
have to officially send the evite saying we're going to
attack you at some point, not to distance surprise attack
illegal Pearl harbor and actually right, that's illegal. UM. That's
one of the reasons why they the democratic peace theory works.
(09:26):
So democratic peace theories based on the idea that democracies,
especially democracies that follow these conventions, are so transparent that
two democracies will never go to war because they're both
following the same transparent steps in the lead up to war,
and communication will be um much more open um. One
of the you a surprise attack is impossible, not only illegal,
(09:51):
but impossible because they have vibrant independent media. Right, so
so democratic piece theory says that two democracies will never
go to war. I don't know that's necessarily true, but
it's based in part on this Hague convention. Thanks so
combat and weaponry and the Hague Conventions. They're pretty obvious.
Things like you can't fly a white flag and then
(10:14):
shoot someone in the face, which apparently Iraqi soldiers did
in two thousand three in the US invaded. Not very nice. Illegal,
You cannot if a person has surrendered or as injured,
then that's it for them. You can't go shoot them
in the face. I mean, you gotta treat him. While
we'll get to that in a minute too. If a
person has a visible or an audible speech impediment, you
(10:34):
can't make fun of him. That's very true. You can't
attack a defenseless person. You can't like attack a hospital
or a building being used as a hospital. No, that's
what they call using a human shield. And there's a
huge no no, and it's yeah, that's big time jerk
quality right there. Uh. Natural, And see, this is what
(10:55):
I thought was kind of interesting. National and cultural symbols
are protected, So you can't desecrate a flag or use
the enemy's flag. You can like dress up as a
soldier and say I'm really a Nazi, even though all
those movies they always did stuff like that. Yeah, well
it's illegal. Inglorious. Maybe it's sensible, but it's illegal. Yeah.
The whole movie they were dressed up, well not the
whole movie, but a significant portion of it. Yeah, they
(11:16):
dressed his Nazis to kill Nazis. That was a great movie.
It was pretty awesome, Chuck. You also can't hide out
in museums or libraries, well yeah, you can't. Certainly can't
bomb them, just like just like a hospital, they're protected
as well. To talk a little more about later, Um,
and there's certain weapons you can't use. The Higgs specifically,
(11:38):
says Um. The right of belligerents to adopt means of
injuring the enemy is not unlimited. Right, So basically, you
can't use poison bullets, you can't use poison gas, you
can't use weapons that are designed to inflict further harm
beyond the initial injury. Yeah, Like they have those bullets
that once they get inside of you start doing all
(11:59):
sorts of wacky thing for further damage. Like they have
the bow ties that spin around, flapping dickies. Uh. Chemical
and biological warfare is made illegal all the way back in. Yeah.
Sarin gas, chlorine gas, uh, mustard gas, all those are
old timey poison gases. Yeah. Yeah, smallpox can't do that.
(12:22):
So we were talking about wounded and sick. Uh. Basically
the Hague Conventions spells it out pretty clearly. If you're
wounded and you're sick, or if you see us another
soldier an enemy that's wounded or sick, you gotta help him. Yeah,
and we should probably say about at this point that
you can, um, you can break down the Hagen Geneva
Conventions by like combat weaponry treatment a civilian ship, or
(12:43):
you can look at them the rules for overarching as
they apply to the different groups involved, and the group
with the least amount of protection are active combatants, right,
but once you be once you're injured or you're sick
and you're no longer capable of fighting, you slip into
the sick or wounded soldier category and you suddenly enjoy
far more protections than if you have a gun and
(13:06):
you're coming at somebody. Right. Well, yeah, not like I said,
not only can you not uh shoot the guy in
the face, you have to help them or at least
allow them to be helped by like the Red Cross,
right and chuck Like, you can't just walk away right now,
like after a battle. You can't just walk away from
the battlefield after you've won. You can't just release the chows.
(13:26):
Which did you know that that's what childs were originally
bred for in China? Did not know that they would
release them onto the battlefield? They chew the throat side
of survivors. Yes, is that what the suckers are? So
puffy and mean? Um, we used to have childs. Actually
they're not mean, so you, but they are protective. You
can do some damage, true, Um, but you can't release
the child's out in the battlefield. But not only that,
(13:47):
you can't just walk away from the battle field. You
you have to um help injured soldiers. You gotta help
it the injured, and you gotta clean your plate. You
can't just leave the deadline around every No, as a
matter of fact, you have to give the enemy soldiers
that you've killed a burial that's appropriate to their religions.
(14:10):
You're supposed to and at the beginning of every war,
they're supposed to be a graves Registration Service, which is
neutral party like the Red Cross, and it's possibly operated
by the Red Cross. Where you bury a bunch of
soldiers and you say you you contact the graves Registration
Service and say, there's a bunch of dead soldiers here
(14:30):
we killed, and they're buried here and here the coordinates,
and the the graves Registration Service provides each side with these coordinates.
After the wars, the bodies can be exhumed and sent home.
Well yeah, not only that, but you're you're supposed to
return all property found on the body. So you can't
like you see in the movies where you go looting
the body of of trinkets and things to take home
(14:50):
like a broach. Right, let's say you can't do that.
You're supposed to mail that to their next of ken,
which kind of wonder about that how often that happens.
I wonder it myself. You cannot perform experiments on a
wounded or sick person like the Nazis love to do.
That's a big one. Uh. And that's about it for
(15:12):
the second wounded, and it's biological experiments. But I think
also brainwashing sure constitute an experiment, and you're not allowed
to do that either. UM. So let's say that you
have been caught, you you are, you received treatment from
the enemy, um, and they're like, well, you're well, now
(15:33):
you're a pow. Do you still have some pretty wide
um protections? Actually? Yeah, this is a fact at your
next cocktail party that you should pull out of your
hip pocket. You. If you're a pow, you're a prisoner
of the country, not a prisoner of the soldier or
the platoon or the commander in chief of that region.
(15:55):
You're a prisoner of the United States of America if
that's who is fighting against America America. But not only that, um,
your detention is legal under international law. Therefore, an escape
is illegal and can be punished unless you make it
to your other side, to your side, and then they
(16:15):
wipe this slight clean, right, it's totally clean like you
were never captured in the first place. So if you're
a spy and you're caught and your hell is a POW,
you're going to be tried as a spy and possibly hanged.
If you escape two, say an occupied territory that your
army controls, you are your detention is just wiped off
(16:36):
the map. And if you're caught again, say as a
regular soldier, you can't be tried as a spy. It's
like it never happened. Isn't that interesting? That's kind of
cool telling about name rank and serial number. Yeah, you've
you've often heard that in movies. Um, that is definitely
a part of the Third Geneva Convention. But it is
not merely for name identification. But you are awarded privileges
(16:58):
if you are an off sir in europow, Like you
don't have to dig the latrine ditches like the privates
and the corporals do. If you're an officer, you have
a little bit of a I don't know about cush
your life, but you could drink ticket every day. You
can train. But it's like when you see all the
World War two movies, like The Great Escape, the Officers, Um,
(17:19):
they were always had a little bit better deal than
than their men, like they were the ones. Like Hogan's heroes,
Hogan was always meeting with the uh what was with claim?
But the rest of the guys wouldn't meet. It was
always Hogan because he was the main, the main man.
Did you ever see Auto Focus? You're gonna say that
(17:41):
it's hard to watch Hogan's heroes ever again? And auto Focus? God,
I love that. Yeah, it's right up your alley. H
The other thing about POWs is, um they are prisoners,
much like a civilian prisoner would be, and they're innocent
until proven guilty, supposedly, and you have to treat him
as such. Um. So, if you are captured, is a
(18:03):
POW you are, or if you're captured you're required to
grant this person POW status if you're supposed to err
on the side of caution. There's very sure whether they're
POW or not, right, but there's a very specific qualifications
that you have to classify them. If they are obviously
members of the armed force. They can be a member
of a militia or a volunteer corps. Right, still got
(18:26):
to be a pow. Right, they could be some guy
who you who happened to be like carrying a gun
out in the open, and you still have to say
we're going to treat you like a POW until we
set up a tribunal and they say, no, he's not
a POW. Is a common criminal. Members of the media
traveling with the armed forces, they have to be granted
POW status and it's about it a cruise of merchant
(18:49):
marine and civil aircraft they're working with army. One of
the reasons why Abu Grab and the treatment, the degradation
at Abu Grab was so illegal was because these combatants
weren't granted POW status right off the bat. These captured
combatants were treated as criminals. Basically, they were imprisoned. So
(19:11):
that's one. You can't imprison a POW. You can intern
them in an internment camp. Do they have borders, but
not a cell. It's another one. Unless they're like a
specific danger, then you can work around that, which is
probably what they said. Um, you can't subject them to
degrading treatment interrogation. Interrogation basically amounts to you ask him
a question and it's up to them whether they want
(19:32):
to answer it or not. And if they don't want
to answer then you that's it. You can't ask them
again even they can't be coerced or tortured under any
definition of torture. Um, and you can't, um, they can't
their detention can't be paraded in front of the media.
That was another thing too. I mean you remember Lyndy
(19:53):
England right, pointing and like, did you ever see the
mad magazine one? Or is alfredy Newman is now it's again? Um?
So there were several reasons why Abu Gray was just
so horrendous. Well, yeah, and you also have to grant
them any any rights that your own soldiers get like food, water, shelter, clothing, exercise,
(20:14):
correspondence like you have to. You have to let them
know exactly where they are, and you have to make
them available to receive mail from their families. Yeah. Not
only did you have to tell them where they are,
you have to give them the mailing address so that
they can receive care packages, letters, whatever. Crazy So Chuck,
(20:35):
that's POWs right, Ah, yeah, pretty much. Let's talk about civilians.
Do you remember Red Dawn. We've talked about this often.
I should say that recently when we were hanging out
with our friend Chad, he remarked after I said that
I had just recently seen The Fly David Krodenberg's The
Fly for the first time, that he had just seen
Red don for the first time. And you, I thought,
(20:56):
we're gonna beat him up, punch him in the face.
I just don't understand how you could. He's our age
our ages. Yeah, he seems like it. He should have
seen Red Dawn long before this. That's hadn't seen war
games if you were a child, like a teenage boy
in the eighties. So back to it, read Dawn. Well, okay,
(21:18):
so you remember Harry Dean Stanton where Jed and Charlie
Sheen come to Jed and who it was Swayzie and
Jean wasn't. Yeah, but I can't remember Thomas. Did they
all three go? Possibly, but it was definitely Jed and
his brother, Um, And they go to see their father,
who happens to be Harry Dean Stanton. He's in turn.
(21:41):
Notice he's not in a cell. They've put up fencing
around the drive in right, and they're projecting propaganda up
onto the screen and they're playing like Russian Soviet music. Um,
that's legal. Right. When he passes by, I think Arturo's father,
who's getting like a German shepherd to the face. Yeah,
that's highly illegal. Can't use the dogs, No, you can't,
(22:04):
um the chows. No, no child's, no German shops, no
dogs of any kind. Um. When the Russians landed and
opened fire on the unarmed high school students, that's highly
illegal to I mean, they just flat out shot up
that teacher, remember that. Yeah, and that kid too. Yeah,
the kid's hanging out the window. That was one of
the most disturbing images of my young life. Very impactful. See.
(22:25):
I wanted to be a wolverine. Oh yeah, so did I.
And and I guess all little boys like playing war.
But I mean I didn't know I was going to
be a peace nick later on. But at the time, man,
I was like, bring it, I'll get a gun, I'll
go to the woods, pack of football and some canned beans.
I wish that, um, you could take the video of
(22:45):
your life and edit it, because I would make a
montage of all the times I shouted wolverines, like in
the woods. There's a kid. That's what I would do
with my time. It was more than once. Um, so
Red Dawn somewhat on the Soviets took care of the
civilians to a certain extent. They legally interned others, they
(23:06):
illegally attack some with dogs. But um, let's say you
were Darryll's dad, the mayor, and you're riding around with
the the Cuban commander. Right, Um, what what rights do
you have? Is just a general civilian who's not been
deemed a threat? Right, Let's say, could Darryll's dad talk
(23:26):
to Darryl's mom? Is open communication legal? Well? Yeah, it's
it's a basic right that you're supposed to have. It
can be curtailed if they think that there is uh,
could be a detrimental effect on the correspondence. But even
then they allow They law you to tweet basically, yeah,
you're not really tweet, but they allow you like twenty
(23:47):
five words. Right, there's special forms that every occupying force
will have or should have that um, people can fill
out to communicate with one another. Uh if if free
speech is curtailed, yeah, um, and twenty five of those
words have to be freely chosen by the person. You
cannot be removed to another country unless it's for your
(24:08):
own safety as a civilian, and you can't bring in
your people as the occupying force. You can't bring in
your civilians to settle that's right now, You're not allowed
to do that and not allowed to do that. Um.
They can force you to work, but they do have
to pay you, and it can't be work, um like
for your military, like against your own country. Right, you
(24:28):
can't make You can't be made to make bombs that
are gonna be used against your peeps, exactly. And if
you are working and you're not making bombs, you can't
be made to physically punish your own countrymen, if you're
a middle manager forced laborer, and you can force kids
to to work too. Really, and Chuck, it's um illegal
(24:49):
to tattoo civilians for the purposes of identification. Yet another
one that came out of World War Two. Yeah, boy, Hitler.
They just went gaga after that, like with genocide. It
that had never probably well, no, there was genocide before that,
but after Hitler they said, no, we can't do this
genocide thing. So Josh, let's talk about cultural property because
(25:09):
I think it's one of the lesser known aspects of
these conventions. I didn't know about it until I read
this stuff. It's absolutely protected like your museums, your works
of art and science. Like, um, remember when Saddam's statue
was toppled, the American forces couldn't do that. The Iraqi
people did that. But if the Americans had toppled his
(25:31):
statue and like looted his palace, right because like you said, um,
But the Hague and Geneva conventions specifically outlawed genocide, which
is the systematic extermination of a group of people. In
much the same way, the Hague convinces are like, you
can't do that to their culture either, their cultural legacy
and not just statues. Books are included, scientific achievements, works
(25:55):
of art, archaeological areas, and then the buildings that house
these things. Remember we said, like, you can't go hide
out in a museum or library because these are culturally
protected too. Yeah, but it's on the it's on the
state to um provide identification there that these special symbols,
and it's up to the country to to identify these
(26:16):
places as such so they don't get bombed. So what
happens if you break these rules? Let's say you're just like,
you know, I don't want to follow these rules. I
want to I want to shoot this guy's face in
even though he's wounded already. Yeah, I don't like the
way he looked, or he's dating my girlfriend. Are those
awful things you've seen in the in the Vietnam War
(26:38):
movies when one like, uh yeah, when they just go
nuts and just start doing bad, bad things. So neither
the Geneva Convention nor the Head Convention specify what kind
of punishment should be doled out, how offending parties should
be charged. UM. They basically say, hey, everybody who's like
(27:02):
on the side of the law, take these people to the
the international court and then doll out whatever punishment you
think is necessary. So for example, after Nuremberg, UM, before
actually the Geneva Conventions we ratified UM. The the the
I guess, France, Great Britain, in the US and Russia
(27:22):
all formed this international tribunal where they try these Nazi
war criminals and hanged. I think they executed eleven of them.
So in much the same way we formed tribunals for
UM Yugoslavia, the Balkan Moore, UM for Rwanda. But it's
up to the country that has been um uh offended,
(27:44):
it's not offended. It's up to the country that has
been impacted to to do the legwork to make this happen. Like,
there's not some big general body it's gonna say, yeah,
we heard this happen, so we're gonna make sure they
get prosecuted. No, but there is a standing body in
the Hague called the International Criminal Court, and these are
this This body hears these um war crimes trials. This
(28:07):
is where you go to have a war crimes trial,
right um. And there's a lot of debate over the
legitimacy of this body. Some people want this body to
take up more issues than that has Now. Are they
already up and running? Actually I don't think so, but
there's a big movement to get it going. Yes, there
is one that's standing right, the World Court. Basically, do
(28:31):
you know the other cool things? I got one more?
You got anything else? Um? I have a little more,
but go ahead, okay. Uh. One thing I found interesting, Joshures,
is that the these rules don't just apply to the armies,
but militia and volunteer corps. And we'll go back to
red down here. Just for the sake of continuity. If
(28:52):
you have a person in command read don who is that?
Jed Swazy? God rest his soul. Um, if you have
a representative symbol that can be recognized from a distance,
if you spray paint wolverine, since you're representatives. So what
they were doing, they were basically kind of putting themselves
in the corner. They didn't realize it. Um, if they
(29:14):
carry weaponry in the open, Yeah, they definitely did that.
Powers Booth showed him how to do that with effectiveness.
He was the pilot, right, Yeah, he was the guy
that crashed and kind of headed things up for a
little while, and then they got to follow the laws
and customs of war. So if you meet those criteria
as a militia. So if we just formed our own
little pack of how staff forks ruffians, if we were
(29:37):
attacked and we and you are our leader, and we
carried open weaponry, and we had our symbol, which would
be wolverines, clearly then we would be subject to the
same rules as just like we were in the army. Well,
that fourth one in particular is a little ticklish because
it basically says, if you follow the rules of war,
the rules of war apply to you. Yeah, so what
(29:59):
happens if if you don't And we asked this guy, um,
who's a professor of international Law's name is Michael Matheson.
We talked to him actually about from yeah, George Washington University,
and he said we we asked him, like, what how
are these followed? Like how are these enforced? Like why
would anybody follow these if you didn't really have to?
And he basically said, the idea that if you don't
(30:22):
follow him, the other person doesn't doesn't have to, and
all of a sudden you can be tortured UM or
you know, you can be attacked by dogs or humiliated, degraded, whatever, UM.
The slippery slope that forms if you don't follow the
rules of war UM keep both sides in line actually,
and that they're these rules are indoctrinated into the military
(30:46):
rules UM on each side already. So basically, each side
regulates itself in the hopes that the other side will too.
You know what they call the golden rule. That's right,
I'm gonna end up at that all right. If you
want to learn more about the rules of war and
see what the cultural property emblem looks like, we know
where you can find it type Rules of War and
(31:08):
the search part how stuff works dot com. That means
now it's time for the listener mail. Josh, I'm gonna
call this handpicked by you. Yeah, you picked this one out.
It's a good one in the Big day and it
was a really good email. Actually it was on my
list too, So this is from Clovis, and Clovis had
some thoughts on the addiction podcasts that were very relevant
(31:29):
and I think made some great points. Guys in your
podcast on addiction, I thought you treated the issue fairly
with a couple of exceptions. First of all, Josh, you
said that a A was radically successful or something to
that effect. The truth is, no one really knows how
successful it is. It might be successful at helping someone
obtain sobriety for some amount of time, but it might
not be any stronger than if a person just cycles
(31:51):
out of drinking on their own. Also, a a's goal
of lifelong abstinence is a set up for failure to
some studies showing that only about five percent of people
remain completely abstinent for the rest of their lives. UH
Clubus goes on to say, it also seems like you
bought into the idea that UH that was cultivated by
our government that rates use rates are the best measure
(32:13):
of the harms that drugs and prohibition due to our society.
So if use rates are up, that's bad. If down,
if they're down, that's good. Not quite true. Use rates
are actually a terrible way to measure the success or
failure of a drug treatment and drug policy. Meaningful data
would measure the increases and decreases and drug related death, disease, crime,
(32:34):
and suffering. All of these things can be significantly measured
and in some cases even more accurately accurately than self
reported use rates. Use rates are especially useful to politicians
who use this quote unquote evidence to say use rates
are down, we're winning. You should increase our budget to
help keep this fight. Or use rates are down, we're losing,
so you need to increase our budget to put us
(32:56):
to stamp this thing out. So either way, they're trying
to get more money. Uh. And I guess the point
about addiction. That's the point about addiction and treatment. Our
society has defined both way too rigidly. Addiction is really
drug use plus problems. What do we do for those
people who can't use drugs without causing problems the addicts?
We should give them treatment? And treatment can be anything
(33:18):
that works for them. Can be a a can be
heroin assisted treatment, it can be knitting. But if it
lessens the death, disease, crime, and suffering associated with the
drug use, then it should be considered a successful treatment.
Putting them in prison cells is about the worst thing
we can do for them. With all respect, Clovis, Thanks
for that, Clovis, for one of the better emails we've
(33:40):
ever received. I would say, yeah, it was a good one. Uh.
If you have something you'd like to point out to
Chuck and I'm that we've maybe erroneously bought into something
and you want to tell us how it is, we
always love that, Wrap it up and send it to
stuff podcast at how stuff works dot com. Yeah. For
(34:02):
more on this and thousands of other topics, visit how
stuff works dot com. To learn more about the podcast,
click on the podcast icon in the upper right corner
of our homepage. The How Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived.
Download it today on iTunes. Brought to you by the
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