August 17, 2024 • 37 mins
Body language is how you communicate without words. Some say it bears more impact in communication than speaking words. In this classic episode, learn about how you say what you say could mean more than you think.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
How d everybody, it's January seventh, twenty sixteen. No, it's not,
but in my world it is. It's actually twenty twenty four.
But we're going to go back in time to January
twenty sixteen to listen to the episode on body language.
And I said it like that because for some reason,
it has an exclamation point in the end. So please
(00:23):
enjoy body language. Welcome to Stuff you should know, a
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, There's
Charles w Chuck Bryant, Jerry's in the house.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
We're back to basics.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, we're doing a social sciences episode. Man, I mean
we're all right, man, we get to tear it apart.
You you believe in body.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Language, sure, watch this. You're winking and shouldering and nodding
your head and you're loosening up and you're doing some
weird biting thing. What did I say? You said I'm
feeling silly.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
That's exactly what I was saying.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
How about that?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, it said I've had a diet mountain dew and
I'm pepped up.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Oh okay, that's what I was saying. I missed the
Uh no, I'm crashing and he's down.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You doing good?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, I'm hanging on by a thread. Are you sure
we can make it through this? Man?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
You can do this in your sleep. Okay, don't go
to sleep. Okay, it will be so boring.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
You could theoretically do this in your sleep. Yeah, okay,
I gotcha. Yeah. So body language it is a thing.
When I was researching, I was like, this is junk science.
There's no way this is real. And I could not
find anything that.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Just said like, yes, body language is obviously junk science.
Apparently it's very well established and well reputed. I mean
I understand like, like, yes, there is such thing as
body language intruded in evolution. Yeah, it's basically evidence of
evolution from an animalian ancestor.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
But the idea that like you can read somebody, especially
like that facial coding system, it just struck me as
really like junkie.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, well we did. I could have sworn we had
done this one when I we did micro expression. Yeah,
we did that in I think two thousand and nine,
and I don't remember how I weighed in on it
back then. So I'm just going to start anew. Yes,
it may, it may be a different take. I have
no idea.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
People grow and change, their opinions evolve, you know.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well here's what I think. Of course, body language is
real and it can tell you a lot, can tell
you a lot, uh huh, but it can also miss
You can be misdirected very easily. Sure and h I mean,
we'll get to it. But I found some stuff from
a former FBI guy. Even it doesn't say it's junk science,
(02:53):
but he's like, you can fool somebody too if you're
a sociopath. You know this about body language of micro expressions. Yeah, yeah,
apparently it's a myth that uh, that's how I get by.
Apparently it's a myth that icon or not having eye
contact means deception, while it can. His whole point is
(03:14):
they've done studies over the years and habitual liars and
anti socials in psychopaths have the most eye.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Contact, probably because there's that myth. Yeah exactly, So it's
like a self fulfilling myth.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah. Ted Bundy was probably like, I gotta make great
eye contacts with everyone looking into your soul, otherwise the
jig will be up right and I won't get to
kill people any longer. My favorite thing, right, and.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Then so yeah, there's a lot of myth.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
There's that.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
There's that one myth also where like you look up
into the right or up into the left of your
lying or recalling. Yeah, remember I can't remember we do.
We debunked that in something here or there a while back.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, I think. I think body language is fun to
talk about and study. But when you're convicting someone as
a jury based on micro expression, yes, there's where the
junk science comes in for me, it gets a little dangerous.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And not just with body language too. We need to
do a whole episode on forensics in general and just
how junkie the science that most of it is based on.
It's basically the only thing that's less standing is DNA,
and even that can be wildly misinterpreted. Yeah, and we're
using this to like execute people. Yeah, and there's a
(04:26):
big problem with it. So I think we've arrived at
my problem with it. It's junk science when you apply
it for like law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, as fact. Yeah, agreed, Okay, so can we be done.
This is the other thing that got me too, Albert Mehrabian,
I totally.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Nailed that guy's name.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
I bet the h is silent Arabian Merabian, I bet
it's just Morabian, not Arabian anyway.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Doctor Morabian back in nineteen eighty one said that in
the first four minutes of meeting someone, our facial expressions
account for sixty five percent of the impression we make.
Seven percent of that impression comes from our actual words,
while the remainder of the information comes from our tone
of voice. Yeah, I think is what made me think, like, no,
(05:16):
this is all b Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, because it sounds who can say that, you can't.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Maybe in nineteen eighty one you could get away with
that crap, not in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
No, sixteen, Yeah, you lived in the past. Yeah, Morabian was.
He was probably one of the first researchers to study
this in the nineteen forties out of UCLA. And I agree,
you can't just break down percentages. I think what he
really means to say, if I may speak for him, yes,
(05:46):
is facial expressions and tone of voice account for a
lot of a lot of what you're getting out of
a person.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
And I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
And the words account maybe for even less than those
two things combined.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I think people would agree with that too. I think
it's when you quantify it. Yeah, sure, seven percent. He
just said that just because it sounds authoritative.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, because he like he fed it into the percentage
three maker of three thousand and it spit it out.
But that is not to miss a point that communicating
inadvertently is something that we all do through bodyling. Sure.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, there was a there's a great quote I ran
across on a Psychology Today post. It was the quote
comes from a sixteenth century Scottish mathematician named John Napier,
and he said, if language was given to men to
conceal there, oh you found it too, huh.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah, it's about as good.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
A quote of body language as you can come up with.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
You do it, chuck, No, you you were already do
you better sixteenth century Scottish mathematicians. No way, I'm not
doing do you?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Sean Connery reading this, man.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
If language was given to men then shield their thoughts,
then gesture's purpose was to disclose them. That's perfect, not bad.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
That was a dead on John Napier.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
It's not as good as my crystal fault.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah. So Napier makes a pretty good point, like, yeah,
you can language has all sorts of structure and can
be mastered. Body language is much of it is just
inadvertent and we don't even realize necessarily when you're picking
up on it. You just get this weird gut feeling
that no, I don't trust this car salesman, or I
(07:27):
want to give this car salesman all my money depending
on the body language.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, and it's pretty clear that this started a long
time ago, like it predates language, right because who wrote this,
By the way, this.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Is a Patrick Kiger joint.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Oh Kiger. Yeah. Kiger says rightfully that in Tuktook's age,
you didn't have a lot of time to suss things
out like up close and personal. You know, once you
got close enough within striking distance, you can be stricken. Yeah,
you might already have that club upside your head right
or that rock in your face. Yeah, So you needed
(08:02):
to judge someone's body language as they approach you to survive. Yes,
you know.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So body language makes sense. And you would also presuppose
that since we are descended from animals and animals clearly
do engage in body language, that body.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Language will be older than language.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Although this article says that language didn't exist until about
one hundred thousand years ago. That's under dispute. No, really,
possibly as much as a million years ago, people were
using some sort of verbal communication.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, and Neanderthals apparently also had language. Probably interesting, It
is pretty interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I'd like to do one on animal communication, have we not?
I think we touched on it here and there. But
I know there's a lot of things like cats purring
and tails wagging on dogs that are misinterpreted. Yeah, or
like a wolf growling, I think that means compet me.
You know, it's often as interpreted as a warning.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Come take this stink out of my mouth if you dare.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Should we take a break? Sure, all right, let's take
a quick one, and we're going to get back and
explain a little bit more about what one researcher calls
thin slices of experience. So, Josh I said something about
(09:35):
thin slices of experience. And I'm not talking about the
roast beef line at the buffet, which is great, thin
slices the carving station. Yeah, yeah, you ever work at
carving station? Have I ever worked one? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I've hung around one long enough that I basically should
have been paid, but I was just eating.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
What do you wait for the next roast to come
out so you can get the in cut.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I've never been into and cuts it whether it be
a loaf of bread or cut of meat.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Oh really, like a prime rib end cut? Yeah, no, daddy,
that's good, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
All salt?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Maybe that's why I love it?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You like the salt huh oh yeah, yeah. South to me,
it's like the closer you get to the middle, the juice.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
He or it. Well, that's lower cooked. Yeah, and a
little a little rarer in the middle, right obviously.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, So I think that's my problem with the end
of anything. You know, it's under cooked. You overcooked?
Speaker 1 (10:30):
About why people don't like to eat the crust? Why
because it's called crust And that might be part of it.
If like one hundred years ago they named it like
the butterfly Yeah, the butterfly slice. Ye, people would have
been like fighting for it, like the butterfly slice is delicious. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Have you ever heard George Carlin's little take on that
end slice that everybody always goes past. They're like, I'm
not going to eat that. That's the poison piece of bread.
I'll leave that for my family to eat.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Wait, I guess the end sitting called the crust, so
is it? The crust is what's around. But it's all crust.
That's the problem with Oh, okay, you know what I mean.
It's nothing butt crust. Yeah, not butt crust. It's nothing
but crust. I think the other weird man, this is
a jer or so juve. This is a strange tangent.
I think. The other problem with the bread in pieces
(11:22):
is that eating one in piece with a regular slice
is a little weird. Yeah, but getting that other slice
off the tail end is not very feasible or efficient
to make two crust pieces.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
No, but that frequently is the last sandwich that's made
out of the loaf because that one end piece has
been hanging around.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, and then finally it's made. Yeah, and then you
stick some turkey in it and weep quietly while you
eat your terrible sandwich. Man, thin slices where experience.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yes, this is a professor of psychology name Nalini and
body and Battie Huh from Toughs University. Shout out to
my buddy Robert Shahade from high school.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Okay, he works at tough Speaking of you know, there's
a kid with like a really huge hit single out
right now from your high school. Really, I think your
high school's shown in the music video. It's watch Me Whip,
watch Me Nay Nay. It's read in yeah weird, yeah, Cilento.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So I'm no longer the most famous person in my
high school.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
You were until about it six months ago.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
And I will be again in another six months.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Maybe it's a pretty pretty catchy single. It's a hot, hot,
hot track.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Now. We actually we had several professional athletes that are
much more popular than me. We had a professional punter.
Actually maybe told me that before. Yeah, we have, We've
had a few. There's a baseball player. Uh had a punter.
Travis tript went to my high school. Shut up, really no,
see that's a big time yeah, Travis true big Yeah.
(13:00):
I don't have any like superstars.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Luke Bryan went to Uni High school.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Man, you guys, where'd you go? Beverly Hill's nine.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Or two on with Shannon Doherty.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Uh, oh boy, here we go again. Thin slices from
Tough's University.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Well, let's let's talk about the thin slices thing.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Man.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
The you said earlier that it would be very advantageous
evolutionarily speaking, to be able to read maybe the rough
intentions of some other hunter gatherer one hundred thousand years ago,
read the room like from a distance before they could
hit you with a rock, right, if that was their intent. Sure, well,
(13:42):
just as much you want to be able to like
walk through the world and be threatened by stuff and
to make snap judgments about it based on things like
body language. Yeah, same thing. And this is what the
thin slices has to do with.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, they're just those first few seconds when you meet somebody.
And I mean some people may just call it a
gut instinct about somebody, but what you're probably doing is
reading body language, right, That's what that gut instinct is. Yes,
And those things are processed and generated. And I think
the limbic system where emotions and feelings are processed in
the brain. Yeah, limbic system, from what I understand, that's right,
(14:17):
which she thinks and I agree with her that it
might explain why we have such such like a powerful
gut instinct about some people when we first meet them,
because it's tied to emotion. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And the whole point is is this guy will cut
your throat if you turn your back on him, right,
probably not, But in our modern context, it's you know,
this guy will inflate the price of the car you
want to buy if you're not careful. Yeah, it's this
(14:48):
totally different things, but it's based on the same principle.
It's all based on body language, and we're able to
make snap judgments that we can't even stop and really
analyze what it was that person did or what it
was about him. We just know that we trust them
or don't, or we feel comfortable around them or not,
we fear them or we don't. Yeah, based on this
body language, and what this professor is saying is we
(15:09):
have a very ancient part of our brain that is
responsible for processing this stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, and I think, just for me personally, I think
if you try to focus on that too much, uh huh,
then you're not doing yourselves any favors. Like let it
be innate.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Well, yeah, there's some people who coach this kind of stuff.
Yeah that apparently say no, do all sorts of crazy,
weird stuff, which we'll talk about later.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, agreed, But what you're looking at are there's three
different categories. I guess innate, learned, and some that are
both hybrid expressions and postures and things that you do
and like, for instance, you're born with like you can blush,
that's an innate thing. You blush. You don't mean to blush,
especially when somebody's staring at your cheek. Yeah, I don't
(15:57):
think you can make yourself blush. Watch this. Just think
about hot things in your mouth. Tighten up your core. Uh.
So that's the innate side learned would be things like
hanging someone a bird, yeah, out the car window, right,
because everyone knows what that means depending on where you
(16:19):
are and you've learned it.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah, that's not something you're born doing, Like, yeah, I
got your diaper right here, come.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Change a photo of a baby Accidentally shooting a bird
is one of the great things. Sure can we agree.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
But it's accidentally. There's no meaning attached to it, that's
what you think. And then there's hybrid hybrid gestures that
are like shrugging is a really good example. It's something
you know you naturally shrug, right, right, but it's it's
not contextual until you learn what to attack attach it to.
Like I don't know, sure you're not born and being like.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Right or you or you you cry, but you've also
learned that crying can get you something, maybe right, or
to get out of a traffic ticket or something sure,
to gain sympathy.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
It can chase your parents off to the bar. Yeah, yeah,
one of those. And then Chuck I said something about
how you know, flipping somebody bird. Everybody knows what that means.
It does depend on where you are, sure, because there
is especially with learned. So I think innate body language
is virtually universal stuff that you couldn't possibly control. Like,
(17:28):
I can't remember why I read it. But if you
take a bite of something putrid and you make that horrible,
like disgusted face like oh my god, I'm about to
vomit everywhere, everybody who's watching you doesn't have to go
give me that and then take a bite and taste
it themselves. They can look at your face and be like,
I'm not going anywhere near that piece of feces that
(17:48):
guy just took a bite of. The That's how we
all learn not to eat feces.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yeah, but there's also the human thing where you're like,
oh God, smell this.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Right, that's the member who wants everyone else for like
they just did. But everybody else has just been communicated
to by that innate face, that nasty face that you
would make when you eat something disgusting. And again that
evolutionarily that protects us in that respect innate stuff. So
that's universal, sure, but it's the learned stuff that's culturally dependent.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, Like, for instance, they have a few examples in
the article, Smiling in the US might mean in the
United States might mean you're happy, apparently in Asia it
might say I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It could also cover up embarrassment if they're embarrassing for
you or something. Yeah, there, you might smile.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, is that why everyone's always smiling at me? They're
embarrassed for me? What else? Eye contact varies from place
to place. Here in the United States, someone might think
you're listening and like very keyed into what you're saying,
or your Ted Bundy or your Ted Bundy, or if
you're in Africa, maybe it might be disrespectful to look
(18:58):
someone right in the eye.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Looked around to find out what part of Africa because
I hate to leave it like that, you know, on
this massive continent, right, do not look people in the eyes?
I couldn't find any, and everyone said some parts of
Africa everywhere I look no one specifically said. In the Congo,
it's considered impolite or aggressive or something like that to
maintain eye contact. It's definitely in Japan. Yeah, if you
(19:25):
make eye contact with somebody, you are saying I'm your superior.
So if you are socially or say business wise and
inferior to somebody, you're you're averting your gaze and it's respectful.
In the US, you shake hands and you make eye contact,
and you just you know, climbed a wrong right there.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Unless your Prince And then he's like, nobody can hide
eye contact with me?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Is that for real? Because he likes to do things
that just mess with people for fun.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, I think I think ninety percent of the stories
you've heard about Prince are not true.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
What about him playing basketball, He's like a really good
basketball player, though, says Charlie Murphy.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Well, I believe and everything, Charlie Murphy.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Says, they I found some more culturally bound stuff.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
What else?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Thumbs up in New Zealand does not mean like right on?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Does that mean it like thumb up your butt? Pretty much? Really?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, you don't want to do that. Similarly, when you
make like the peace sign, as long as you're not
showing the people the back of your hand.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Sure, that's yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
And in in Australia and I believe New Zealand too,
like that movie Bad Taste, the cover of it that
I think Peter Jackson's first or second movie. Oh right,
the cover of It's like an alien going like that,
And I'm like, what's the what's two?
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yeah? Why was he showing me the number two?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Then as I grew up, I learned to understand what
that was.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
What else you got? Uh?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
In some cultures, nodding means no, like nodding yes actually
means no, like in Greece and Bulgaria.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Oh wow, I could get you in trouble.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah. And in Mexico, Mexico, this is what I found. Mexico,
Haiti and Spain, it is perfectly normal to go to
a waiter, which I do. I don't do it to waiters,
but I'm a kind of person. That's how you call
someone over and get their attention. You may also make
kissing noises at them to a waiter.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah. Really Yeah, So I go to Mexico, I need
my check and I go.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I guess according to this thing that I read, which
seemed pretty legitimate.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Interesting. Yeah, what was the website?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I don't remember. I'll definitely send it to you to post.
But it was like it was researched material to be
used by business people around the world. If it was
a hoax, then they did a pretty good job. Fool
of me, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
All right, let's take another break and we'll come back
and we'll talk about deciphering some of these nonverbal cues
right after this. All right, So language is a very
(22:05):
precise thing, or it should be or can be. Body
language would you would think is just all over the map,
But they're actually some categories that some brilliant social scientists
have come up with. Yeah, and I think they make sense.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah, basically that they've broken it down into five categories
or five types of nonverbal communication and body language.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, there's emblems. It's like hanging a bird, yeah, or shaking.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Your fist or something like that, something that that is
very symbolic of something else that you can also put
into words, Right.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Who shakes a fist at someone?
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Some people do, Okay, it's a good it's a it's
a good.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, yeah, because it's that middle finger. And then you're
really that's very aggressive Okay, that's very aggressive. I'm just kidding.
I never flick someone a bird. Oh really, Oh yeah,
like in a car or something. No way, Yeah, apparently
it's really dangerous. Yeah, and that's yeah, that's why I
do it. I think it's just I mean, I'll get mad.
(23:09):
I didn't say things, but I would never I don't
know who that person is. Yeah, it could be a psycho. Yeah.
Then you're getting chased or you're getting shot at by
someone because you like you just had to shoot a bird. Yeah.
We talked about this in the road Rage episode. Yeah.
I wouldn't hang people the bird, and that's not smart.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
By the way, I want to update on that. I've
been improving more and more behaviorally. Oh yeah, even since
the road Range episode. And I was already on the
right path then. So you're doing good behind the wheelings
are doing so good. I feel like I'm about the same. Well,
you've always been that way, but I get mad. One
time you rode with me. I think it was the
first time you ever rode with me, and I started
(23:46):
yelling at somebody. You're like, uh, really, you seem genuinely surprised,
and I remember thinking, like, this is abnormal.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Well that was probably because you were like sending an
email with your left hand and driving with your knee
and had a coffee in the other.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I've gotten so much better.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
That's good. It's because you value your life.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I do.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
It's great emblems after emblems illustrators, which like shaking your
head as far as emphasis, if to emphasize something you're saying, right, like.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Like no, Sure you can just say no, but the
person's like, it doesn't really mean that until you shake
your head by you say no, especially slowly. Yeah, that
you're really saying like do not ask me again?
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, boy, I never thought about that. The slow one
really does mean something different. It does.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
It adds, it bulks it up, you.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Know, regulators. I think this is in a conversation to
let someone else know that maybe all right, it's time
for you to talk now, or it's time for me.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
To talk right, or it's time for us to stop talking,
like looking at your.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Watch or just getting them walking away. That's yeah, that's
they language. Yeah, I guess it is. It definitely speaks volumes.
There's adapters, which I guess have to do with the
person listening or I guess anybody either one making themselves
more comfortable. Like you know, when you're in a conversation
with somebody and they just kind of shift in their
(25:17):
seat like settle in.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, Now they could be doing it differently where they're fidgeting,
they're shifting in their seat uncomfortably, like they can't get comfortable.
That says something totally different than somebody who's just like
settling in, just making themselves more comfortable.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Right, Or I guess if you like, if you're having
a conversation and someone just sits up on the edge
of their seat, that kind of says we're done here sure,
like I'm about to get up, Yeah, so please say
something enclosure.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, especially if you sigh while you do that too,
you know.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
And then there's affect displays, And these are the ones
that most people think of when they think of body language.
These are the ones that you know, like where you
make that face when you eat something putrid, or your
shoulders go up around your ears when you're scared all
of a sudden.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, if you're mad. It's emotional based, Yeah, emotion.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Based, Yeah, like your eyebrows furrow.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
There's just so much body language. I came across this
one guy from nineteen seventy eight and m Argyle no
idea what the M stands for. But in nineteen seventy eight,
Professor m Argyle, a researcher of body language, said that
there's probably something like seven hundred thousand words in the
body language human body language. I have no idea how
(26:30):
he or she came.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Up with that. That seems high, but it's fun to
throw out there. Junk science nineteen seventy eight. Yeah, you
could say anything back then as far as like social psychology. Yeah,
misinterpreting body languages, we talked a little bit about that.
That is very easy to do. They have one little
(26:52):
anecdotal story about a woman who was a consultant that
I think she was pitching him the CEO of a
big company, and the guy just sat there basically with
his arms crossed and didn't emote. At the end, was
just like thank you, and she thought, well, I've blown
this one, And turns out that is just the way
that guy is. He loved look at you. He loved
the presentation, and if he hadn't liked it, he just
(27:15):
would have left, is what the partner said. I think. Yeah,
so you can easily misinterpret body language. I don't know
if it's I guess it could be dangerous and that well,
I mean, that's part of the problem. It can be dangerous,
especially when you apply it to law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Like Paul Eckman. We talked about him heavily in the
micro Expressions episode because he basically studied micro expressions through
facial movement, facial muscle movement, and figured out what each
one meant, and he came up with the Facial action
Coding System the FACS, which apparently the FBI and other
law enforcement agencies used to tell whether you're lying or
(27:55):
you're hiding something in an interrogation. Misreading that that's that's
when it becomes dangerous for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah, this dude I was talking about Joe Navarro, who
was a twenty five year of veut of the FBI.
He's written a lot about body language, and he's one
of the ones that warns about the myths and misreading things.
But he wrote a whole article on shoulders and he
said everyone's always talking about the face and facial expressions.
He thinks you can read a lot into the shoulders
(28:24):
of a person, whether it's slumping or bowing up or
and then he actually talked to criminals over his entire
career and said, what do you look for in a victim?
So if you're looking to not be victimized, you might
want to avoid these things looking frail or weak or
not athletic.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, work out, yeah, or just you know, try.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And carry yourself like you're not frail or weak, you know.
And I think there's a lot to do with the shoulders.
Situational awareness, which is a big one. Yeah, if you
just look like you have your head in the clouds,
that's one for me a target, Yeah, what you're in
your head about something? Sure? Yeah. Uh. And then the
way someone swings their arms like vigorously or real subdued,
(29:11):
not at all like on that one episode the Box,
Yeah that was was that Roquel Welch, No, it was, well, yeah,
it ended up as Roquel Welch, but it was Molly Shannon.
Oh yeah yeah, yeah, remember she like swept Yeah what
Elaine's desk is clean man? Yeah Shannon, And she's one
(29:31):
of my favorites. Yeah, she's fantastic. So what was Yeah
the arm swing and basically, uh, what these criminals would
say to him over and over is you know there
the silver backs don't go after other silverbacks. They go
after the weak ones. And they said, it's the same
with criminals. So I keep those shoulders straight. And I
(29:52):
was like, what's the silverback? I forgot?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
That sounds like a criminal corporate buzz speak. Yeah, you
know it's over becks. That's the local soccer team. How
do you not know what that is?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
That is what I thought? Yeah? Uh? What else we got? Oh,
these these people that try and coach you, we're gonna
mention them nutjobs. I don't think they're nut jobs, dude.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Okay. One, the one person who emerges a hero from
this article says, be very careful in trying to pay
attention to your body language and speak consciously through it,
because you're going to you're gonna have massive problems. Yeah,
that's not what body language is intended for. So the
(30:35):
people who say no, master your body language and use
it to communicate. Yeah, you're gonna come off as a creep, right,
an aggressive, weirdo corporate creep if you do that.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Well yeah, I mean, if you're making a presentation, it's
hard enough to get the words right. Yeah, So if
you start thinking like about every single movement you make
Yeah that conveys. Yeah, I don't I agree. I don't
think you're doing yourself any favors or like if.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
You go to you again a car sales car lot, right, yeah,
and you're like, I'm going to make sure I look
very defensive and aggressive. So I'm going to go rigid
and my shoulders are going to go up right. The
car sales is going to be like that guy's walking
like a robot, I'm going to take him for a ride.
You know, there's you just you could conceivably speak through
(31:21):
your body language more. I don't dispute that. Right, you
can become more aware of your natural body language too,
I don't dispute that either. But when you focus on
it and use it as a technique to manipulate other people, yeah,
I have issues with that.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Well, here was one idea I didn't think was terrible,
Like if you're if you do a lot of public speaking,
then maybe watching yourself with the sound off.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Sure. I didn't disagree with that on anything.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
That's not a terrible idea.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah, I think as a matter of fact, I was like,
maybe maybe I should try that.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
No, don't bet that. The other technique that was brought
up was called mirroring. That means, and this just sounds
crazy to me. This is when you actually try and
mimic the person you're talking to, mimic their body language
expressions too, I guess, to.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Make them feel more comfortable to you. People are attracted
to themselves as the basis of it, Okay, so when
you mimic them, they feel more relaxed around you, Like
I really like that person. I like the cut of
their jib. I don't know, I can't put my finger
on it. But they're actually mimicking your own body language.
If you're leaning leaning against the wall, they're going to
(32:24):
lean against the wall too.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
That's disconcerting, it is, that's nuts.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
You shouldn't do that to people. That's manipulative and weird,
and it just be yourself. How about that?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, I think this quote sums it up. I'm trying
to learn. I'm trying. Sorry, Trying to use body language
by reading a body language dictionary is like trying to
speak French by reading a French dictionary. So you can
list off all the nonverbal cues in the world. But
if you try and learn the body language quote unquote
because of that, then you're just gonna end up confused
(32:56):
or you're going to miss something actually said.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah. And plus also context is huge too, Like if
you're just watching somebody's body language like a hawk and
a conversation, yeah, you don't necessarily know that person's baseline.
So what is by definition of this body language dictionary,
a red flag? Doesn't necessarily mean it's a red flag
with that person, you know, like if they're yawning, are
they bored or are they nervous?
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
You got to have contexts and you can't just you
can't just read people like that.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It's stupid.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Go with your gut, sure, but I don't think you
should actively try to read it. If you want to
go ahead, I don't care. I'm not going to.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
I did read an article with one woman who was
an expert supposedly, and she did talk a lot about
the baseline. She's like, that's the most important thing is
you don't know. You got to know how someone normally is.
Are they twitchy? Yeah? Then if you're they're twitching a conversation,
that's normal for them.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Right, So it doesn't mean that you can't trust what
they're saying, right then, it just means that they're.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
A little awkward. Yeah, like me, You're not awkward. Are
you got anything else? Nope?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Friends, that is body language, and if you want to
know more about it, you can type these words body
language into the search bar at house stuff works dot com.
And since I said friends, it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
This is this is a question. Actually I said we'd
answer on the air. Hey, guys, been listening for quite
a few years, and you've seen me through a lot
of years of growth out of high school and into
my own as an adult. A question that's been a
challenge for me recently. I'm studying permaculture quite intensively, and
parts of the study are pretty depressing, like climate change,
(34:36):
species lost, and unfair trade. I try to reflect positives
only to my clients who are trying to grow their
own food, because I'd rather encourage them to sustain themselves
physically and emotionally than feel guilted or trapped into changing
a lifestyle, realize that having the opportunity and time to
focus on ethical choices to the luxury, and want to
avoid shaming people. I think this approach is good for
(34:58):
my own well being, because tackling issues bigger than myself
seems more harmful than productive. But like you, part of
my job is education. So the question is how do
you guys deal with darker topics that you cover. I
really appreciate the way you do it, and I would
like some insight and advice how you prevent these topics
from weighing too heavily on you and still live a
(35:19):
life of enjoyment yet conveying topics honestly. And that is
from Annales in Australia, nice ew. I think my answer is,
like when we cover something like dementia or HIV like
we recently did, we're always going to have humor in there,
respectfully and in the right ways, because that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Plus also that helps when we're getting this stuff across.
It's not like it's not like we're causing dementia. We're
just saying, like, here's all the information that we found
on this, here's everything you need to know about dementia.
And I think the thing that allows us to go
from you know, lighthearted topic to a very dark topic
(36:03):
to whatever is that we're putting it out there as
objectively as possible or as unbiased as possible, trying to
we're not passing much judgment on it depending on the topic,
but for the most part, we don't really pass too
much judgment on it, and I think that that allows
us to talk about anything.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Yeah, and as far as taking it home, if we
do something that's a big bummer that it really impacts me,
it'll bump me out for sure. Yeah. But just like
anything else, I think knowledge is key to the more
you know about something, the less scared you might be
a bit.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, you just go work it out, you know.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Good answer.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, that's a great answer to you too. If you
want to get in touch with Chuck or Me or
Jerry or anybody who we could conceivably pass a message
along too, right, Yeah, you can send us an email
to Stuff podcast that House, Stuffworks dot com and as always,
joined us at our home on the web, Stuff Youshould
Know dot com Radio.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts Myheart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
How d everybody, it's January seventh, twenty sixteen. No, it's not,
but in my world it is. It's actually twenty twenty four.
But we're going to go back in time to January
twenty sixteen to listen to the episode on body language.
And I said it like that because for some reason,
it has an exclamation point in the end. So please
(00:23):
enjoy body language. Welcome to Stuff you should know, a
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, There's
Charles w Chuck Bryant, Jerry's in the house.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
We're back to basics.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, we're doing a social sciences episode. Man, I mean
we're all right, man, we get to tear it apart.
You you believe in body.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Language, sure, watch this. You're winking and shouldering and nodding
your head and you're loosening up and you're doing some
weird biting thing. What did I say? You said I'm
feeling silly.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
That's exactly what I was saying.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
How about that?
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Yeah, it said I've had a diet mountain dew and
I'm pepped up.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Oh okay, that's what I was saying. I missed the
Uh no, I'm crashing and he's down.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
You doing good?
Speaker 1 (01:24):
Yeah, I'm hanging on by a thread. Are you sure
we can make it through this? Man?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
You can do this in your sleep. Okay, don't go
to sleep. Okay, it will be so boring.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
You could theoretically do this in your sleep. Yeah, okay,
I gotcha. Yeah. So body language it is a thing.
When I was researching, I was like, this is junk science.
There's no way this is real. And I could not
find anything that.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Just said like, yes, body language is obviously junk science.
Apparently it's very well established and well reputed. I mean
I understand like, like, yes, there is such thing as
body language intruded in evolution. Yeah, it's basically evidence of
evolution from an animalian ancestor.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
But the idea that like you can read somebody, especially
like that facial coding system, it just struck me as
really like junkie.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, well we did. I could have sworn we had
done this one when I we did micro expression. Yeah,
we did that in I think two thousand and nine,
and I don't remember how I weighed in on it
back then. So I'm just going to start anew. Yes,
it may, it may be a different take. I have
no idea.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
People grow and change, their opinions evolve, you know.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
Well here's what I think. Of course, body language is
real and it can tell you a lot, can tell
you a lot, uh huh, but it can also miss
You can be misdirected very easily. Sure and h I mean,
we'll get to it. But I found some stuff from
a former FBI guy. Even it doesn't say it's junk science,
(02:53):
but he's like, you can fool somebody too if you're
a sociopath. You know this about body language of micro expressions. Yeah, yeah,
apparently it's a myth that uh, that's how I get by.
Apparently it's a myth that icon or not having eye
contact means deception, while it can. His whole point is
(03:14):
they've done studies over the years and habitual liars and
anti socials in psychopaths have the most eye.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Contact, probably because there's that myth. Yeah exactly, So it's
like a self fulfilling myth.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yeah. Ted Bundy was probably like, I gotta make great
eye contacts with everyone looking into your soul, otherwise the
jig will be up right and I won't get to
kill people any longer. My favorite thing, right, and.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Then so yeah, there's a lot of myth.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
There's that.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
There's that one myth also where like you look up
into the right or up into the left of your
lying or recalling. Yeah, remember I can't remember we do.
We debunked that in something here or there a while back.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, I think. I think body language is fun to
talk about and study. But when you're convicting someone as
a jury based on micro expression, yes, there's where the
junk science comes in for me, it gets a little dangerous.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
And not just with body language too. We need to
do a whole episode on forensics in general and just
how junkie the science that most of it is based on.
It's basically the only thing that's less standing is DNA,
and even that can be wildly misinterpreted. Yeah, and we're
using this to like execute people. Yeah, and there's a
(04:26):
big problem with it. So I think we've arrived at
my problem with it. It's junk science when you apply
it for like law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah, as fact. Yeah, agreed, Okay, so can we be done.
This is the other thing that got me too, Albert Mehrabian,
I totally.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Nailed that guy's name.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
I bet the h is silent Arabian Merabian, I bet
it's just Morabian, not Arabian anyway.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Doctor Morabian back in nineteen eighty one said that in
the first four minutes of meeting someone, our facial expressions
account for sixty five percent of the impression we make.
Seven percent of that impression comes from our actual words,
while the remainder of the information comes from our tone
of voice. Yeah, I think is what made me think, like, no,
(05:16):
this is all b Yes.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, because it sounds who can say that, you can't.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Maybe in nineteen eighty one you could get away with
that crap, not in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
No, sixteen, Yeah, you lived in the past. Yeah, Morabian was.
He was probably one of the first researchers to study
this in the nineteen forties out of UCLA. And I agree,
you can't just break down percentages. I think what he
really means to say, if I may speak for him, yes,
(05:46):
is facial expressions and tone of voice account for a
lot of a lot of what you're getting out of
a person.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
And I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
And the words account maybe for even less than those
two things combined.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I think people would agree with that too. I think
it's when you quantify it. Yeah, sure, seven percent. He
just said that just because it sounds authoritative.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, because he like he fed it into the percentage
three maker of three thousand and it spit it out.
But that is not to miss a point that communicating
inadvertently is something that we all do through bodyling. Sure.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Yeah, there was a there's a great quote I ran
across on a Psychology Today post. It was the quote
comes from a sixteenth century Scottish mathematician named John Napier,
and he said, if language was given to men to
conceal there, oh you found it too, huh.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Yeah, it's about as good.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
A quote of body language as you can come up with.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
You do it, chuck, No, you you were already do
you better sixteenth century Scottish mathematicians. No way, I'm not
doing do you?
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Sean Connery reading this, man.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
If language was given to men then shield their thoughts,
then gesture's purpose was to disclose them. That's perfect, not bad.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
That was a dead on John Napier.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
It's not as good as my crystal fault.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yeah. So Napier makes a pretty good point, like, yeah,
you can language has all sorts of structure and can
be mastered. Body language is much of it is just
inadvertent and we don't even realize necessarily when you're picking
up on it. You just get this weird gut feeling
that no, I don't trust this car salesman, or I
(07:27):
want to give this car salesman all my money depending
on the body language.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, and it's pretty clear that this started a long
time ago, like it predates language, right because who wrote this,
By the way, this.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Is a Patrick Kiger joint.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Oh Kiger. Yeah. Kiger says rightfully that in Tuktook's age,
you didn't have a lot of time to suss things
out like up close and personal. You know, once you
got close enough within striking distance, you can be stricken. Yeah,
you might already have that club upside your head right
or that rock in your face. Yeah, So you needed
(08:02):
to judge someone's body language as they approach you to survive. Yes,
you know.
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So body language makes sense. And you would also presuppose
that since we are descended from animals and animals clearly
do engage in body language, that body.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Language will be older than language.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Although this article says that language didn't exist until about
one hundred thousand years ago. That's under dispute. No, really,
possibly as much as a million years ago, people were
using some sort of verbal communication.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Oh wow.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, and Neanderthals apparently also had language. Probably interesting, It
is pretty interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
I'd like to do one on animal communication, have we not?
I think we touched on it here and there. But
I know there's a lot of things like cats purring
and tails wagging on dogs that are misinterpreted. Yeah, or
like a wolf growling, I think that means compet me.
You know, it's often as interpreted as a warning.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
Come take this stink out of my mouth if you dare.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Should we take a break? Sure, all right, let's take
a quick one, and we're going to get back and
explain a little bit more about what one researcher calls
thin slices of experience. So, Josh I said something about
(09:35):
thin slices of experience. And I'm not talking about the
roast beef line at the buffet, which is great, thin
slices the carving station. Yeah, yeah, you ever work at
carving station? Have I ever worked one? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:50):
I've hung around one long enough that I basically should
have been paid, but I was just eating.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
What do you wait for the next roast to come
out so you can get the in cut.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
I've never been into and cuts it whether it be
a loaf of bread or cut of meat.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
Oh really, like a prime rib end cut? Yeah, no, daddy,
that's good, isn't it?
Speaker 2 (10:09):
All salt?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Maybe that's why I love it?
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You like the salt huh oh yeah, yeah. South to me,
it's like the closer you get to the middle, the juice.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
He or it. Well, that's lower cooked. Yeah, and a
little a little rarer in the middle, right obviously.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, So I think that's my problem with the end
of anything. You know, it's under cooked. You overcooked?
Speaker 1 (10:30):
About why people don't like to eat the crust? Why
because it's called crust And that might be part of it.
If like one hundred years ago they named it like
the butterfly Yeah, the butterfly slice. Ye, people would have
been like fighting for it, like the butterfly slice is delicious. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Have you ever heard George Carlin's little take on that
end slice that everybody always goes past. They're like, I'm
not going to eat that. That's the poison piece of bread.
I'll leave that for my family to eat.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Wait, I guess the end sitting called the crust, so
is it? The crust is what's around. But it's all crust.
That's the problem with Oh, okay, you know what I mean.
It's nothing butt crust. Yeah, not butt crust. It's nothing
but crust. I think the other weird man, this is
a jer or so juve. This is a strange tangent.
I think. The other problem with the bread in pieces
(11:22):
is that eating one in piece with a regular slice
is a little weird. Yeah, but getting that other slice
off the tail end is not very feasible or efficient
to make two crust pieces.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
No, but that frequently is the last sandwich that's made
out of the loaf because that one end piece has
been hanging around.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, and then finally it's made. Yeah, and then you
stick some turkey in it and weep quietly while you
eat your terrible sandwich. Man, thin slices where experience.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
Yes, this is a professor of psychology name Nalini and
body and Battie Huh from Toughs University. Shout out to
my buddy Robert Shahade from high school.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
Okay, he works at tough Speaking of you know, there's
a kid with like a really huge hit single out
right now from your high school. Really, I think your
high school's shown in the music video. It's watch Me Whip,
watch Me Nay Nay. It's read in yeah weird, yeah, Cilento.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
So I'm no longer the most famous person in my
high school.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
You were until about it six months ago.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
And I will be again in another six months.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Maybe it's a pretty pretty catchy single. It's a hot, hot,
hot track.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
Now. We actually we had several professional athletes that are
much more popular than me. We had a professional punter.
Actually maybe told me that before. Yeah, we have, We've
had a few. There's a baseball player. Uh had a punter.
Travis tript went to my high school. Shut up, really no,
see that's a big time yeah, Travis true big Yeah.
(13:00):
I don't have any like superstars.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Luke Bryan went to Uni High school.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Man, you guys, where'd you go? Beverly Hill's nine.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Or two on with Shannon Doherty.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Uh, oh boy, here we go again. Thin slices from
Tough's University.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Well, let's let's talk about the thin slices thing.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Man.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
The you said earlier that it would be very advantageous
evolutionarily speaking, to be able to read maybe the rough
intentions of some other hunter gatherer one hundred thousand years ago,
read the room like from a distance before they could
hit you with a rock, right, if that was their intent. Sure, well,
(13:42):
just as much you want to be able to like
walk through the world and be threatened by stuff and
to make snap judgments about it based on things like
body language. Yeah, same thing. And this is what the
thin slices has to do with.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, they're just those first few seconds when you meet somebody.
And I mean some people may just call it a
gut instinct about somebody, but what you're probably doing is
reading body language, right, That's what that gut instinct is. Yes,
And those things are processed and generated. And I think
the limbic system where emotions and feelings are processed in
the brain. Yeah, limbic system, from what I understand, that's right,
(14:17):
which she thinks and I agree with her that it
might explain why we have such such like a powerful
gut instinct about some people when we first meet them,
because it's tied to emotion. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
And the whole point is is this guy will cut
your throat if you turn your back on him, right,
probably not, But in our modern context, it's you know,
this guy will inflate the price of the car you
want to buy if you're not careful. Yeah, it's this
(14:48):
totally different things, but it's based on the same principle.
It's all based on body language, and we're able to
make snap judgments that we can't even stop and really
analyze what it was that person did or what it
was about him. We just know that we trust them
or don't, or we feel comfortable around them or not,
we fear them or we don't. Yeah, based on this
body language, and what this professor is saying is we
(15:09):
have a very ancient part of our brain that is
responsible for processing this stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Yeah, and I think, just for me personally, I think
if you try to focus on that too much, uh huh,
then you're not doing yourselves any favors. Like let it
be innate.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Well, yeah, there's some people who coach this kind of stuff.
Yeah that apparently say no, do all sorts of crazy,
weird stuff, which we'll talk about later.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Yeah, agreed, But what you're looking at are there's three
different categories. I guess innate, learned, and some that are
both hybrid expressions and postures and things that you do
and like, for instance, you're born with like you can blush,
that's an innate thing. You blush. You don't mean to blush,
especially when somebody's staring at your cheek. Yeah, I don't
(15:57):
think you can make yourself blush. Watch this. Just think
about hot things in your mouth. Tighten up your core. Uh.
So that's the innate side learned would be things like
hanging someone a bird, yeah, out the car window, right,
because everyone knows what that means depending on where you
(16:19):
are and you've learned it.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
Yeah, that's not something you're born doing, Like, yeah, I
got your diaper right here, come.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Change a photo of a baby Accidentally shooting a bird
is one of the great things. Sure can we agree.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
But it's accidentally. There's no meaning attached to it, that's
what you think. And then there's hybrid hybrid gestures that
are like shrugging is a really good example. It's something
you know you naturally shrug, right, right, but it's it's
not contextual until you learn what to attack attach it to.
Like I don't know, sure you're not born and being like.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Right or you or you you cry, but you've also
learned that crying can get you something, maybe right, or
to get out of a traffic ticket or something sure,
to gain sympathy.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
It can chase your parents off to the bar. Yeah, yeah,
one of those. And then Chuck I said something about
how you know, flipping somebody bird. Everybody knows what that means.
It does depend on where you are, sure, because there
is especially with learned. So I think innate body language
is virtually universal stuff that you couldn't possibly control. Like,
(17:28):
I can't remember why I read it. But if you
take a bite of something putrid and you make that horrible,
like disgusted face like oh my god, I'm about to
vomit everywhere, everybody who's watching you doesn't have to go
give me that and then take a bite and taste
it themselves. They can look at your face and be like,
I'm not going anywhere near that piece of feces that
(17:48):
guy just took a bite of. The That's how we
all learn not to eat feces.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Yeah, but there's also the human thing where you're like,
oh God, smell this.
Speaker 2 (17:56):
Right, that's the member who wants everyone else for like
they just did. But everybody else has just been communicated
to by that innate face, that nasty face that you
would make when you eat something disgusting. And again that
evolutionarily that protects us in that respect innate stuff. So
that's universal, sure, but it's the learned stuff that's culturally dependent.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah, Like, for instance, they have a few examples in
the article, Smiling in the US might mean in the
United States might mean you're happy, apparently in Asia it
might say I agree with you.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
It could also cover up embarrassment if they're embarrassing for
you or something. Yeah, there, you might smile.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Yeah, is that why everyone's always smiling at me? They're
embarrassed for me? What else? Eye contact varies from place
to place. Here in the United States, someone might think
you're listening and like very keyed into what you're saying,
or your Ted Bundy or your Ted Bundy, or if
you're in Africa, maybe it might be disrespectful to look
(18:58):
someone right in the eye.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Looked around to find out what part of Africa because
I hate to leave it like that, you know, on
this massive continent, right, do not look people in the eyes?
I couldn't find any, and everyone said some parts of
Africa everywhere I look no one specifically said. In the Congo,
it's considered impolite or aggressive or something like that to
maintain eye contact. It's definitely in Japan. Yeah, if you
(19:25):
make eye contact with somebody, you are saying I'm your superior.
So if you are socially or say business wise and
inferior to somebody, you're you're averting your gaze and it's respectful.
In the US, you shake hands and you make eye contact,
and you just you know, climbed a wrong right there.
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Unless your Prince And then he's like, nobody can hide
eye contact with me?
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Is that for real? Because he likes to do things
that just mess with people for fun.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Yeah, I think I think ninety percent of the stories
you've heard about Prince are not true.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
What about him playing basketball, He's like a really good
basketball player, though, says Charlie Murphy.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Well, I believe and everything, Charlie Murphy.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Says, they I found some more culturally bound stuff.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
What else?
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Thumbs up in New Zealand does not mean like right on?
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Does that mean it like thumb up your butt? Pretty much? Really?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, you don't want to do that. Similarly, when you
make like the peace sign, as long as you're not
showing the people the back of your hand.
Speaker 1 (20:21):
Sure, that's yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
And in in Australia and I believe New Zealand too,
like that movie Bad Taste, the cover of it that
I think Peter Jackson's first or second movie. Oh right,
the cover of It's like an alien going like that,
And I'm like, what's the what's two?
Speaker 1 (20:37):
Yeah? Why was he showing me the number two?
Speaker 2 (20:39):
Then as I grew up, I learned to understand what
that was.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
What else you got? Uh?
Speaker 2 (20:43):
In some cultures, nodding means no, like nodding yes actually
means no, like in Greece and Bulgaria.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Oh wow, I could get you in trouble.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Yeah. And in Mexico, Mexico, this is what I found. Mexico,
Haiti and Spain, it is perfectly normal to go to
a waiter, which I do. I don't do it to waiters,
but I'm a kind of person. That's how you call
someone over and get their attention. You may also make
kissing noises at them to a waiter.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah. Really Yeah, So I go to Mexico, I need
my check and I go.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I guess according to this thing that I read, which
seemed pretty legitimate.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
Interesting. Yeah, what was the website?
Speaker 2 (21:24):
I don't remember. I'll definitely send it to you to post.
But it was like it was researched material to be
used by business people around the world. If it was
a hoax, then they did a pretty good job. Fool
of me, gotcha.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
All right, let's take another break and we'll come back
and we'll talk about deciphering some of these nonverbal cues
right after this. All right, So language is a very
(22:05):
precise thing, or it should be or can be. Body
language would you would think is just all over the map,
But they're actually some categories that some brilliant social scientists
have come up with. Yeah, and I think they make sense.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah, basically that they've broken it down into five categories
or five types of nonverbal communication and body language.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yeah, there's emblems. It's like hanging a bird, yeah, or shaking.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Your fist or something like that, something that that is
very symbolic of something else that you can also put
into words, Right.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Who shakes a fist at someone?
Speaker 2 (22:44):
Some people do, Okay, it's a good it's a it's
a good.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah, yeah, because it's that middle finger. And then you're
really that's very aggressive Okay, that's very aggressive. I'm just kidding.
I never flick someone a bird. Oh really, Oh yeah,
like in a car or something. No way, Yeah, apparently
it's really dangerous. Yeah, and that's yeah, that's why I
do it. I think it's just I mean, I'll get mad.
(23:09):
I didn't say things, but I would never I don't
know who that person is. Yeah, it could be a psycho. Yeah.
Then you're getting chased or you're getting shot at by
someone because you like you just had to shoot a bird. Yeah.
We talked about this in the road Rage episode. Yeah.
I wouldn't hang people the bird, and that's not smart.
Speaker 2 (23:25):
By the way, I want to update on that. I've
been improving more and more behaviorally. Oh yeah, even since
the road Range episode. And I was already on the
right path then. So you're doing good behind the wheelings
are doing so good. I feel like I'm about the same. Well,
you've always been that way, but I get mad. One
time you rode with me. I think it was the
first time you ever rode with me, and I started
(23:46):
yelling at somebody. You're like, uh, really, you seem genuinely surprised,
and I remember thinking, like, this is abnormal.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Well that was probably because you were like sending an
email with your left hand and driving with your knee
and had a coffee in the other.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I've gotten so much better.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
That's good. It's because you value your life.
Speaker 2 (24:08):
I do.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
It's great emblems after emblems illustrators, which like shaking your
head as far as emphasis, if to emphasize something you're saying, right, like.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Like no, Sure you can just say no, but the
person's like, it doesn't really mean that until you shake
your head by you say no, especially slowly. Yeah, that
you're really saying like do not ask me again?
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Yeah, boy, I never thought about that. The slow one
really does mean something different. It does.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
It adds, it bulks it up, you.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Know, regulators. I think this is in a conversation to
let someone else know that maybe all right, it's time
for you to talk now, or it's time for me.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
To talk right, or it's time for us to stop talking,
like looking at your.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Watch or just getting them walking away. That's yeah, that's
they language. Yeah, I guess it is. It definitely speaks volumes.
There's adapters, which I guess have to do with the
person listening or I guess anybody either one making themselves
more comfortable. Like you know, when you're in a conversation
with somebody and they just kind of shift in their
(25:17):
seat like settle in.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Yeah, Now they could be doing it differently where they're fidgeting,
they're shifting in their seat uncomfortably, like they can't get comfortable.
That says something totally different than somebody who's just like
settling in, just making themselves more comfortable.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Right, Or I guess if you like, if you're having
a conversation and someone just sits up on the edge
of their seat, that kind of says we're done here sure,
like I'm about to get up, Yeah, so please say
something enclosure.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, especially if you sigh while you do that too,
you know.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
And then there's affect displays, And these are the ones
that most people think of when they think of body language.
These are the ones that you know, like where you
make that face when you eat something putrid, or your
shoulders go up around your ears when you're scared all
of a sudden.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Yeah, if you're mad. It's emotional based, Yeah, emotion.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Based, Yeah, like your eyebrows furrow.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
There's just so much body language. I came across this
one guy from nineteen seventy eight and m Argyle no
idea what the M stands for. But in nineteen seventy eight,
Professor m Argyle, a researcher of body language, said that
there's probably something like seven hundred thousand words in the
body language human body language. I have no idea how
(26:30):
he or she came.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Up with that. That seems high, but it's fun to
throw out there. Junk science nineteen seventy eight. Yeah, you
could say anything back then as far as like social psychology. Yeah,
misinterpreting body languages, we talked a little bit about that.
That is very easy to do. They have one little
(26:52):
anecdotal story about a woman who was a consultant that
I think she was pitching him the CEO of a
big company, and the guy just sat there basically with
his arms crossed and didn't emote. At the end, was
just like thank you, and she thought, well, I've blown
this one, And turns out that is just the way
that guy is. He loved look at you. He loved
the presentation, and if he hadn't liked it, he just
(27:15):
would have left, is what the partner said. I think. Yeah,
so you can easily misinterpret body language. I don't know
if it's I guess it could be dangerous and that well,
I mean, that's part of the problem. It can be dangerous,
especially when you apply it to law enforcement.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
Like Paul Eckman. We talked about him heavily in the
micro Expressions episode because he basically studied micro expressions through
facial movement, facial muscle movement, and figured out what each
one meant, and he came up with the Facial action
Coding System the FACS, which apparently the FBI and other
law enforcement agencies used to tell whether you're lying or
(27:55):
you're hiding something in an interrogation. Misreading that that's that's
when it becomes dangerous for sure.
Speaker 1 (28:03):
Yeah, this dude I was talking about Joe Navarro, who
was a twenty five year of veut of the FBI.
He's written a lot about body language, and he's one
of the ones that warns about the myths and misreading things.
But he wrote a whole article on shoulders and he
said everyone's always talking about the face and facial expressions.
He thinks you can read a lot into the shoulders
(28:24):
of a person, whether it's slumping or bowing up or
and then he actually talked to criminals over his entire
career and said, what do you look for in a victim?
So if you're looking to not be victimized, you might
want to avoid these things looking frail or weak or
not athletic.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Yeah, work out, yeah, or just you know, try.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
And carry yourself like you're not frail or weak, you know.
And I think there's a lot to do with the shoulders.
Situational awareness, which is a big one. Yeah, if you
just look like you have your head in the clouds,
that's one for me a target, Yeah, what you're in
your head about something? Sure? Yeah. Uh. And then the
way someone swings their arms like vigorously or real subdued,
(29:11):
not at all like on that one episode the Box,
Yeah that was was that Roquel Welch, No, it was, well, yeah,
it ended up as Roquel Welch, but it was Molly Shannon.
Oh yeah yeah, yeah, remember she like swept Yeah what
Elaine's desk is clean man? Yeah Shannon, And she's one
(29:31):
of my favorites. Yeah, she's fantastic. So what was Yeah
the arm swing and basically, uh, what these criminals would
say to him over and over is you know there
the silver backs don't go after other silverbacks. They go
after the weak ones. And they said, it's the same
with criminals. So I keep those shoulders straight. And I
(29:52):
was like, what's the silverback? I forgot?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
That sounds like a criminal corporate buzz speak. Yeah, you
know it's over becks. That's the local soccer team. How
do you not know what that is?
Speaker 1 (30:03):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Sure?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
That is what I thought? Yeah? Uh? What else we got? Oh,
these these people that try and coach you, we're gonna
mention them nutjobs. I don't think they're nut jobs, dude.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
Okay. One, the one person who emerges a hero from
this article says, be very careful in trying to pay
attention to your body language and speak consciously through it,
because you're going to you're gonna have massive problems. Yeah,
that's not what body language is intended for. So the
(30:35):
people who say no, master your body language and use
it to communicate. Yeah, you're gonna come off as a creep, right,
an aggressive, weirdo corporate creep if you do that.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Well yeah, I mean, if you're making a presentation, it's
hard enough to get the words right. Yeah, So if
you start thinking like about every single movement you make
Yeah that conveys. Yeah, I don't I agree. I don't
think you're doing yourself any favors or like if.
Speaker 2 (30:59):
You go to you again a car sales car lot, right, yeah,
and you're like, I'm going to make sure I look
very defensive and aggressive. So I'm going to go rigid
and my shoulders are going to go up right. The
car sales is going to be like that guy's walking
like a robot, I'm going to take him for a ride.
You know, there's you just you could conceivably speak through
(31:21):
your body language more. I don't dispute that. Right, you
can become more aware of your natural body language too,
I don't dispute that either. But when you focus on
it and use it as a technique to manipulate other people, yeah,
I have issues with that.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Well, here was one idea I didn't think was terrible,
Like if you're if you do a lot of public speaking,
then maybe watching yourself with the sound off.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Sure. I didn't disagree with that on anything.
Speaker 1 (31:45):
That's not a terrible idea.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Yeah, I think as a matter of fact, I was like,
maybe maybe I should try that.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
No, don't bet that. The other technique that was brought
up was called mirroring. That means, and this just sounds
crazy to me. This is when you actually try and
mimic the person you're talking to, mimic their body language
expressions too, I guess, to.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
Make them feel more comfortable to you. People are attracted
to themselves as the basis of it, Okay, so when
you mimic them, they feel more relaxed around you, Like
I really like that person. I like the cut of
their jib. I don't know, I can't put my finger
on it. But they're actually mimicking your own body language.
If you're leaning leaning against the wall, they're going to
(32:24):
lean against the wall too.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
That's disconcerting, it is, that's nuts.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
You shouldn't do that to people. That's manipulative and weird,
and it just be yourself. How about that?
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, I think this quote sums it up. I'm trying
to learn. I'm trying. Sorry, Trying to use body language
by reading a body language dictionary is like trying to
speak French by reading a French dictionary. So you can
list off all the nonverbal cues in the world. But
if you try and learn the body language quote unquote
because of that, then you're just gonna end up confused
(32:56):
or you're going to miss something actually said.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Yeah. And plus also context is huge too, Like if
you're just watching somebody's body language like a hawk and
a conversation, yeah, you don't necessarily know that person's baseline.
So what is by definition of this body language dictionary,
a red flag? Doesn't necessarily mean it's a red flag
with that person, you know, like if they're yawning, are
they bored or are they nervous?
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (33:20):
You got to have contexts and you can't just you
can't just read people like that.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
It's stupid.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
Go with your gut, sure, but I don't think you
should actively try to read it. If you want to
go ahead, I don't care. I'm not going to.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
I did read an article with one woman who was
an expert supposedly, and she did talk a lot about
the baseline. She's like, that's the most important thing is
you don't know. You got to know how someone normally is.
Are they twitchy? Yeah? Then if you're they're twitching a conversation,
that's normal for them.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Right, So it doesn't mean that you can't trust what
they're saying, right then, it just means that they're.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
A little awkward. Yeah, like me, You're not awkward. Are
you got anything else? Nope?
Speaker 2 (34:02):
Friends, that is body language, and if you want to
know more about it, you can type these words body
language into the search bar at house stuff works dot com.
And since I said friends, it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
This is this is a question. Actually I said we'd
answer on the air. Hey, guys, been listening for quite
a few years, and you've seen me through a lot
of years of growth out of high school and into
my own as an adult. A question that's been a
challenge for me recently. I'm studying permaculture quite intensively, and
parts of the study are pretty depressing, like climate change,
(34:36):
species lost, and unfair trade. I try to reflect positives
only to my clients who are trying to grow their
own food, because I'd rather encourage them to sustain themselves
physically and emotionally than feel guilted or trapped into changing
a lifestyle, realize that having the opportunity and time to
focus on ethical choices to the luxury, and want to
avoid shaming people. I think this approach is good for
(34:58):
my own well being, because tackling issues bigger than myself
seems more harmful than productive. But like you, part of
my job is education. So the question is how do
you guys deal with darker topics that you cover. I
really appreciate the way you do it, and I would
like some insight and advice how you prevent these topics
from weighing too heavily on you and still live a
(35:19):
life of enjoyment yet conveying topics honestly. And that is
from Annales in Australia, nice ew. I think my answer is,
like when we cover something like dementia or HIV like
we recently did, we're always going to have humor in there,
respectfully and in the right ways, because that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Plus also that helps when we're getting this stuff across.
It's not like it's not like we're causing dementia. We're
just saying, like, here's all the information that we found
on this, here's everything you need to know about dementia.
And I think the thing that allows us to go
from you know, lighthearted topic to a very dark topic
(36:03):
to whatever is that we're putting it out there as
objectively as possible or as unbiased as possible, trying to
we're not passing much judgment on it depending on the topic,
but for the most part, we don't really pass too
much judgment on it, and I think that that allows
us to talk about anything.
Speaker 1 (36:20):
Yeah, and as far as taking it home, if we
do something that's a big bummer that it really impacts me,
it'll bump me out for sure. Yeah. But just like
anything else, I think knowledge is key to the more
you know about something, the less scared you might be
a bit.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Yeah, you just go work it out, you know.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
Good answer.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yeah, that's a great answer to you too. If you
want to get in touch with Chuck or Me or
Jerry or anybody who we could conceivably pass a message
along too, right, Yeah, you can send us an email
to Stuff podcast that House, Stuffworks dot com and as always,
joined us at our home on the web, Stuff Youshould
Know dot com Radio.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
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An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.