July 10, 2021 • 45 mins
A fascinating thing about Americans is that we can disagree on anything. Such is the case with historic districts – areas of historic importance protected by local laws. Seems innocuous, but are they also to blame for the affordable housing crisis? Learn all about it in this classic episode.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey everybody, and welcome to the Saturday Selects. I'm Charles W.
Chuck Bryant, co host of Stuff You Should Know, and
this week we're going to dive into the archives to
talk about an episode that I quite enjoyed. Actually it's
about historic districts. I don't live in a historic district.
I kind of wish I did. I live in an
old house from the ninet thirties and there's a lot
of old houses around me, but it ain't a historic district.
(00:24):
And the reason I know is because I did this
podcast on them, and just having old houses around doesn't
make it a historic district. If you want to find
out what that really means, well then just open up
your ears and continue to listen and you'll be done.
So please to enjoy our Saturday Selector this week all
about historic districts. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a
(00:49):
production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh Clark, There's Charles W. Chuck Bryan, There's Jerry
over there, and that makes this Stuff you Should Know.
Say the clock tower, that's good? Like that it's good?
(01:12):
Just popped into my head. Oh for real? Yeah, I
wasn't reading this article and doing this research thinking back
to the future, back to the future. I'm surprised it
just popped into my head. I actually hadn't thought about
back to the future at all. But but that's a
really that's very appropriate, Chuck. But that is not a
historic district. That is just a landmark building. I think
(01:33):
that could still it could still qualify for a registry
on the National Register of Historic Places. It just wouldn't
be a historic district, which is what we're talking about today.
Maybe this should just be the end of the podcast,
the end, Chuck. Have you ever gone into a neighborhood,
just been walking around town, and all of a sudden
(01:55):
you realize that you're in the most charming, adorable place
you've ever been in your life. Sure, well, then you've
probably been in a historic district. Yeah, this is pretty cool.
I feel like this. We haven't done one like this
in a while. You like this when I was fully
expecting you to say like this so much. I love
(02:15):
historic places, I know, but sometimes Yeah, I don't know
why I thought that, but I'm glad that you I'm
glad that it panned out. I actually selected it because
I knew you were gonna hate it, so, you know,
eggs on my face. This is I don't know. It
kind of harkened back to some of our episodes we
used to do, like row houses and shotgun houses. Uh, yeah,
that's that stuff. Saw houses, Yeah, yeah, shotgun houses. We
(02:39):
did do a full episode on shotgun houses. Yeah, and
their architectural importance. I thought that was a pretty good episode, agreed.
I think we released it as a select recently too,
didn't we m I don't think I did. But that
might have been one of your picks. I don't think
I did. It was Jerry ghost producer. We need to
let Jerry select him some from time to time. Jerry
did time for that stuff. That's fine. She needs nothing
(03:02):
else on her plate besides me, so that's true. And
overseeing the largest podcast program in the world. Yeah, it's
pretty impressive. Years Jerry said, thank you. Yes she does.
She's aid thank your holding me so super in her mouth. So, um,
I think I've already kind of gotten the intro out
(03:23):
of the way where I asked if you've been in
a charming area and said you've probably been in a
historic district. Well, I mean, there's a good chance that
you have if you've been in the United States, because
there are more than of them. Yeah, that's a lot.
I mean there's all over the place. And you might
say like, okay, well that's great. Who this is an
area that has been designated to have some sort of
(03:44):
historic significance. Um, can I please go to sleep now?
It will say no, no, please don't go to sleep yet,
because there's a lot more to it. And in one
of the more surprising twists you're ever going to have
in your entire life, it's actually controversial historic districts can
be Oh yeah, yeah, did you not read that one article? Yeah?
(04:04):
I was just being coy. Okay, my stomach just bottomed
out in terror. So should we talk about Charleston, South Carolina? Yes,
a place where I well I didn't go there. I
went to the beach near there. Oh, the Isle of Palms, yeah,
just a few weeks ago. Oh yeah, but we were
within uh spitting distance of Charleston, South Carolina. Why would
(04:27):
you spit on Charleston, I wouldn't. I love it. Bill
Murray lives there, for God's sakes, Yeah he does. Apparently
he's a man about town there and I think his
family lives there too. Yeah, that's why he lives there.
Oh gotcha. Yeah. So, uh, they formed the very first
historic district in the United States. Yeah, they established the
(04:47):
Board of Architectural Review And this quote here is pretty great. Uh.
This is the official quote from that Architectural Review board.
Can you please read it in the mid Atlantic accent?
Mid Atlantic? Why that? Because that's the that's the one,
the old timey one. Okay that you're probably going to use.
I was going to do an old Southern thing. Oh
(05:08):
that's okay, yeah, no, that's way more, way better. The
preservation and protection of the old historic and architecturally worthy
structures and quaint neighborhoods, which in pought distinct aspect of
the city of Charleston. That is, that was beautiful. They
actually have quaint neighborhoods in their charge. Yeah right, So,
(05:29):
I mean, like, from what I've read too, Charleston like
actually is legitimately interested in its architecture and preserving its architecture. Yeah, although,
as we'll see later, there are some people that think
Charleston didn't do it right. Oh is that right? Yeah,
that's in the article at okay, so, or that they're
overdoing it. That's how I took it. Yeah, sure, okay,
(05:51):
cool cool. So but Charleston was the first one to
basically say, this is historically significant architecture. This is a
historically a significant area you and we want to make
sure that it stays that way. So we're going to
add a layer of protection, legal protection over this area
that the rest of the city doesn't have. And within
(06:12):
five years the word had spread to New Orleans and
they said, that's a pretty good idea. Chief, We're going
to do that for the French Quarter. Is my New
Orleans accent? That uh yeah, and that you know, what
they're basically saying is is that it can be either one.
It can and it all depends on your local jurisdictions,
(06:35):
which we'll get to. But historically or aesthetically, these buildings
in this area, they're linked together, right, And so the
Charleston thing basically provided the Charleston and then the New
Orleans when basically provided the groundwork, which was this area
is protected, and we're going to form a board who
is charged with making sure that it stays this way
(06:55):
as much as possible. We're going to vest some legal
authority into them, and these people are you have to
go through if you want to do anything significantly um uh,
altering to the exterior of your place if you live
in this area or have a business there, right, or
maybe not even significantly depending on where you are. So
kind of like you know, plotted along this idea. It
(07:17):
was around for a couple of decades, and then this
whole process of urban renewal that was kicked off after
the highways started being built. Um in part because of
the highways, because people were saying, wait, you're gonna you're
gonna blow right through you know, the Lower East Side
in Chinatown with this highway in in Manhattan. We don't
(07:38):
want you to do that. This is worth protecting, so
build your highway elsewhere. And then also as the highways
were built and traffic started being rerouted away from other towns, um,
these other towns that used to be thriving started to
fall into disrepair. Some people are saying like, hey, let's
knock down these old buildings and build new ones and
maybe business will come back. Um It in initiated this
(08:00):
idea that no, no, we've got some historic stuff here
and we need to protect it. And it really started
to kick off in Earnest in the in the fifties,
and by nineteen fifties six, the federalites had gotten involved
and through the National Park Service established the National Historic
Preservation Act that said, you, MPs, you're in charge of
designating what's his an historic site and what's not. That's right,
(08:23):
and uh in nineteen sixty six they created the National
Register of Historic Places run by the National Parks are
or not run but I guess just sort of maintained. Sorry, yes,
I said nineteen fifty six. I'm in nineteen sixty six. Okay,
I got everything else right, Yeah, that's right. So, um,
here's a deal. You can be listed on the National Register.
(08:46):
And that's really like that doesn't I mean, it means
something I don't want to say. It doesn't mean a
whole lot. But if you really want to protect something,
you have to go with your local historic district. You
have to create and protect it locally. That's a very
big deal. But we're gonna go over both national and state,
(09:07):
which is sort of like national, and then local, which
is pretty different. It actually is, but it's really it's
impressive that the local level is the one that has
the real teeth as far as historic districts are concerned.
As it should be so, but most people want to
start out with the national district at the very least,
because there's a certain amount of cache to it to
having your place designated as a National Historic um either structure, district,
(09:32):
or area. But there's there's multiple things that can fall
under or be um logged onto the Register of Historic Places.
Apparently in other countries they have similar registers, but they'll
include things like events, um people, just not necessarily things
(09:53):
or objects. But in the United States there's a real
emphasis on place and situation and buildings in particular. And
so if you're on the National Register of Historic Places,
you are two things. You're an object and you're inanimate,
and you probably are in situated in a specific area.
You're like where you are, what you are is kind
(10:16):
of tied to the area you're around. That's the real
focus of the United States National Register of Historic Places.
That's right. So there are five overall categories. Buildings, it's
pretty obvious. Structures also kind of obvious, but that could
be it says in here that could even be an
aircraft as a structure. Yeah, I saw that there's a
grain elevator in the Fox, Illinois that's protected because it's
(10:40):
an example of the transition between one story and two
story grain elevators. Amazing, It is amazing, And I don't
want to yuck anybody's this thing about this like to me,
like if you can see, chuck, I'm bleeding a little
bit out of the corner of my eye from being
bored and even saying that since but I'm sure there
are people out there appreciate the different architecture of grain elevators.
(11:03):
And that's the point. It means that if it's on
the National um Register of His Story Places, it is
important to some group of people. And so don't you there, yum,
even if you find it's boring, agreed, because they might
find what you find interesting and boring. Number Three, it
can be an object. Number four. It can be a
site and this is a big one, uh in the
(11:25):
United States because like Civil War battle fields, um, stuff
like that Applach and trail. Yeah, the MLK Historic Site. Sure,
it's like a bunch of well we'll tell you, we'll
talk about that later. Or it can be a district,
which is basically some kind of combination of those first four.
Um or just let me group like you know, the
(11:46):
street has has ten houses. Ten ten beautiful Victorian houses
are all built by the same architect and so this is, well,
we're going to consider this a district, right, So like
maybe in each of those instances, of one of those
houses was in a neighborhood, it might qualify for designation
as a historic building. But if you put them together,
(12:08):
because they're together, they form this district, which is, you know,
the some of these parts form something larger and that
connects them. And um, there's a couple of qualifications that
they have to meet to to be part or listed
on the National Register. Um. Almost without exception, they have
to be fifty years old. I think the law is that, um,
(12:32):
it has to be exceptionally important to be younger than
fifty years old and still be designated on the Historic
Places Register. That's right. Uh. The other thing it has
to be is significant, which sounds kind of broad, but um,
and I guess it kind of is. Because significance is
in the eye of the beholder. But that's why we
have boards and things like that to determine whether or
(12:54):
not they think it's significant to behold things for us.
And then finally it's got to be evaluated that's significant
and historic context, which kind of speaks for itself, like
it did any great history happen there? Um, well, you
know it was this Bob Dylan's house in Minnesota when
he was a child. Although I don't know if that's
(13:14):
on the list. I just threw that out there. It
could be. I mean, it could be that's that's a
that's a home run. But say, like let's say you said, um,
well this this building used to house soda shop, a
soda shop that made pretty good chocolate malts, um, and
so it's representative of that time. Well, if you were
on the board looking at this application, you would look
(13:35):
around and try to put it in context, like, yes,
people liked chocolate malts at soda shops at one period
in American history, But was this the place where chocolate
malts were invented or is this the place where everyone
widely agreed made the best chocolate malted. It's like no,
Like it has a history, but not necessarily significant history
(13:56):
in context of the larger era that it's a part of,
so it would probably get passed over. Yeah, like the
four sort of historic context that you you have, it's
not shoeing necessarily, but you have a good chance if
if something important historically happened there, like this is the
place where so and so was shot and killed or
(14:18):
born perhaps who on a more up note, okay, uh,
did someone live here that was significant? George Washington slept here?
Sure or associated with them? Didn't have to live there necessarily? Um?
Is it related to a certain architectural period or method
of construction? Like that's a that's a big one for
the Park Service, sure, like this is the um, this
(14:41):
is the last house to be used that used plaster
and laugh for their walls. Or there's a there's a
college in Florida called Florida Southern College that is like
the entire campus was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. So
that is clearly going to be accepted on the National Register.
Or finally, was their information at this place that is
(15:03):
historically important? Yeah? Or might there be because they can
afford protection to say, like an archaeological site that's a
known archaeological site that they haven't really dug yet, Like
we'll find it right there, saying there's a pretty good
potential that some information or history or historical significance will
be yielded from investigation of the site. But we want
to protect it now before developers come in. That's right.
(15:26):
Here's the thing though, if you want to be a
historic district, um, that doesn't like if you if you
want to say like these three square blocks or historic district,
that doesn't mean that every single property in there is
what's called a contributing property to that district. Yeah, they're
non contributing properties are allowed. Sure, Like if you have
those fifteen Victorian houses on a block and then there's
(15:49):
the one, you know, the one modern mcmanchin, right, that
that's non contributing. I think we can all agree. But
it doesn't disqualify the rest of the area in as necessarily.
It just it depends on um. From what I've seen,
it's very much a subjective measure. How much that mcmanchin
detracts from the field or the um authenticity of the
(16:13):
rest of the site what they call um integrity. Yeah,
that's really kind of interesting, I think, because all this
stuff is subjective. But the integrity there is how that
the physical characteristics of that property reflect, like on this day,
reflect that significance historically. Right, So like if you have
that row of Victorian homes, but every single one of
(16:36):
them was altered in the sixties or the seventies or
the eighties, and the people inside made some really weird
decisions and so altered the interior the exterior of these homes.
That yes, they were all part of this Victorian era,
and they were once pretty good examples of it. They
aren't any longer. Even though it qualifies for all these
(16:58):
other things, it would not be consider ordered UM a
site with integrity, and it might get passed over unless
everyone agreed to restore the houses back to that Victorian era.
That's the status letter to get I think is I'm
sorry you've been denied because your property has no integrity
pretty pretty much, you know, and you, sir, do not either.
(17:19):
That's how they finish every letter like that. Should we
take a break and talk about how you might create
a historic district? There is one other thing before we do, Chuck,
I think it's a fine idea. I'm not shooting down
your idea, but I do want to point out that
UM areas have to be unified, not necessarily physically, visually geographically,
but somehow they have to be linked to be considered
(17:41):
a district. That's all right, now, you wanna take a break, yes, okay,
if you want to know, then you're in luck just
to ex Alright, So if you're a person and you live,
(18:08):
let's just take us for instance, Like let's say I
wanted to get my house in my neighborhood and in
Atlanta recognize as it or my block as a historic
National Historic District. Okay uh. And the real reason I
want to do this is because of the street near
my house. They're going to expand and it's a real
(18:30):
bummer because they're gonna have to tear down, um a
few of the houses that are really what I think
are significant, and they might take possession of that little
strip of land that you've been exercising squatting on. More importantly,
they will take my little strip of land, right, Okay,
So what would you do? Like, what what are you
(18:50):
gonna do? And um, as step one took to protect
your home, well to place it on the National Register.
I would start at the state, uh, the Historic Preservation Officer.
And this is a person every state has one. You
can go to the NPS website to find out who
yours is and get in touch and they're basically gonna
(19:11):
help you out with I mean, you're gonna you're gonna
plead your case, of course, but they're gonna help you
fill out this form um explaining why. I mean. They
may say listen, don't even bother, But what they're supposed
to do is help assess whether or not it might
be eligible and help you fill out all your national
forms to send in. Right, they might say like how
(19:31):
old your house? And if you're like, oh, it's Bill
in the nineties, it's still pretty nice, they'll be like,
don't don't bother, that's right. But um, you're since you
have never done this before, your dinghis at it, and
they're there to help you figure this out and how
to do it right. They're not the ones who are
going to judge this. A board will, and typically a
state board um for a state historic preservation board. Their
(19:55):
review board is made up of people who know what
they're talking about. Architects, his story us, archaeologists, anthropologists, people
who have been trained in this stuff, who can say, yeah,
this actually isn't that great. There's a much better example
of it. You know, a couple of blocks over. As
a matter of fact, why don't we go to the
other place and make that a historic district? And then
(20:15):
you're like, no, snobs, but um, the the officer that
you are contacting, it's their job to help you get there,
your application in in state your case, and then get
it in front of the review board who will then
take it from there and say this is a great idea,
there's a terrible idea, or I don't care either way,
(20:37):
and it's time for lunch. Approved. That's right. And this
is again going for that National Register. And one reason
you might want to do this is because here's the thing.
It's it's sort of a badge of honor um, like
we said before, and we'll we'll uh, we'll talk about
again later about the local one. That's one you really want.
But if you are on the National Register, it does
(20:59):
provide you with some legal protections federally, so if that
road is a is a federal highway project, then it
could protect your house, or even better, even if it's
a local or a state project, if it's getting any
federal funding whatsoever, same thing applies sure where they have
to say what's going to be the impact on any
(21:21):
historic district of this project? And if the impact is
deemed too great, the project won't go forward. So there
is there are some protections for it but for the
most part it's kind of symbolic and there's a little
bit of cache, and you know, you can put it
on your zealo page that your house is part of
a national historic district, right, but you can't. They can't say,
(21:41):
I mean you can. You can live in a historic
a national historic home, and you can let it fall
into disrepair and look like garbage. And they can't come
in and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're you're on the
National Register. You can't let your house fall into disrepair
like this, right, Yeah, clean yourself up. You gotta stain
on your shirt, get a shape, what's your problem. They
don't say that, as those are individual property rights, and
(22:04):
it's only up to local governments to infringe on individual
property rights, not the state or federal government. So while
the state or federal government will have laws restricting its
own activities in regards to historic districts, like expanding a
road or something like that. Yeah, if you get on
the National Register of Historic Places, your whole neighborhood gets
(22:24):
on there. Your neighbor can do whatever they want with
their house. Still, So if that was your whole employ
all along chuck to really keep your neighbor from doing
something like, say, I don't know, putting a second story
on their house. Um, you're going to find that you
have been frustrated. That's right. Um, you can go to
the state, But the state is basically like federal um
(22:46):
as far as protections and stuff like that go. Where
where the real teeth come in is with the local
historic districts, and it is very different. They don't have
to meet the same guidelines a lot of times very similar,
but they don't have to have the same exact guidelines
as the national historic districts do. So the first thing
(23:06):
that you're gonna need, though, is there's got to be
an ordinance, a local preservation ordinance, which is basically just, hey,
here are the rules on how we do this around here. Here,
here's how we're gonna identify these houses. And here's what
it means if you have one right so, and this
isn't like this is like square one stuff like this
(23:27):
is what a city has to do before it ever
creates its very first historic district. If your city has
already done this, then you would just basically go through
the same process that you would with the National Register
in applying to get historic designation for your neighborhood in
your city from your local municipality. But if they've never
(23:47):
done it before, they've got to create new legislation for it,
new laws protecting you know, historic areas. And then they
also have to set up a preservation commission to basically
the same thing that that Charleston, South Carolina did all
the way back in nine team thirty one. That's right.
So you're gonna go in front of the commission. Uh,
They're gonna hold some public hearings where people can come
(24:07):
and argue the case for or against. Yeah, because not
everybody likes this idea. No, not everyone does, as we'll see, Um,
you have to have in fact, it's it's kind of hard.
You have to have, like the community has really got
to be behind this in order for this to go through. Hey. Yeah,
in most cases, from what I've seen, you need a
majority of homeowners and business owners in the area to
(24:29):
agree to this. And I think even if the opposition
is particularly vocal and mad about it, it's they still
might be able to derail local ordinance designation. That's right.
But it's all going to be considered by the commission. Uh,
and they're gonna make that recommendation to the officials. They're
gonna say, you know you're gonna reject this. Are you're
gonna say it's okay? Is it all great or not?
(24:52):
And here's a deal. If you get named local historic district,
this is when um, they can say, oh no, no, no, no,
you live in a historic home in this district. You
can't let it fall out of disrepair. You can't. There
was this one case where was it in Maryland? I
think where? I guess these front porch columns, Um, we're
(25:16):
being replaced by a family and they skimped a little
because what is expensive and used whether use fiberglass or
something right, and they said, no, no, no no, no, you
can't do that because you live in the historic district
and you have to use uh these original materials to
preserve this house. Yeah, you gotta use you would like
you said. I don't know. Maybe they were like, we
don't want to cut down a tree, or maybe they
(25:37):
were just cheaping out. But um, I think they sued
or yeah, I believe they sued in order to try
to keep them. But that's a really typical. UM. Part
of any local historic district ordinance is if you're going
to make any kind of repairs, especially significant repairs, any
alterations to the exterior, anything like that. You need to
(25:59):
use historic, clear, accurate materials. Well, you have to submit
it for approval to a local design review board too, right, Sorry,
I got ahead of us. So the first thing you
have to do is say, I want to replace the
columns in the front of my house because they're falling apart.
I want to replace them. Um, can I please do that?
Please sir? Please let me and the local review board
(26:20):
or commission will analyze this and they'll say, sure you can.
But this is what they have to look like. This
is the materials they have to um, they have to
be made out of, and this is the color that
they have to be painted. And you have to follow
that or else you can be fine. They can place
a lean on your property, and um, the penalty can
be pretty stiff. Actually, yeah, And here's the thing, Like
(26:42):
I can at least understand this and what we'll and
we'll talk later about, you know, freedoms to do what
you want with property that you own. But this I
can stomach a little bit. And we've talked about homeowners
associations before. Those are the ones that really get me
to where it is not historically significant. It is an
(27:02):
ex urb with seven hundred houses and a subdivision that
require you to have the same mailbox. Right. So the
in that sense, having a homeowners association covenant, UM and
having a historic preservation district on a local level where
they both have teeth that they can actually, you know,
(27:23):
find you or tell you what to do to the
exterior of your house or your yard. The point is
the same in this sense, and that they're trying to
keep things a certain way, right at least, I think
what you're saying is, at least with the historic district,
they're trying to preserve something that has been deemed historically important,
whereas with the suburb, it's just they want to make
(27:44):
sure everybody's lawn is cut or that just looks the same,
or no one paints their house pink or whatever. But
they have the same aim, which is like, this is
what we're all saying is very nice and pleasant. I
just watched Pleasantville last night for like the five hundred
times good movie, but oh man, it's so good. But um,
we've all agreed that this is pleasant and this is
(28:06):
what we want our area to look like, and then
this is how it's going to stay and you can't
change it. And if you do, you have to petition,
and this review board can tell you know you can't
do that. Yeah, And of course I know that the
answer to my problem with these ex orbists don't don't
move there then like you know the stuff going in,
then don't buy a house in that neighborhood. And I
think most people who do buy out there are pretty
(28:28):
aware of that, and I think some of them are
looking for that because it tends to protect property values.
Like you're never going to have a neighbor who just
parks like a boat with a moth eaten cover over
it in their front driveway for five years. Um, Like
that's just not gonna happen out there. But at the
same time, it's also eye bleedingly boring to live out
(28:49):
there as well. Can I also just say that I
love that You're Halloween October movie watching is pleasant? Bill?
Do you know how I watched last night The Texas
chains On that it was so good? The original? Yeah,
I had never seen it. Can you believe that? Uh? No,
I had never seen it. That's really surprising. What do
(29:10):
you think? Uh? Wow? It was it was disturbing. Yeah,
that hammer scene that he drags out for like twenty
minutes of the hour and twenty minute long movie. Yeah,
it was tough. Um, And I realized that, you know,
I'm prepping for a movie crush h slasher movie special,
But um, I didn't. I never watched a lot of
(29:31):
that stuff growing up. But I don't know if it's
because I was churchy, sure, but just rail answer right
there that maybe so, because and I don't think it
was like, oh I thought I would be in trouble.
I think just like the people I was around didn't
really get into that stuff. So you missed a really
crucial window in horror movie watching, because yeah, I can
see coming into it as an adult, you're like, like
(29:52):
you said, this is highly disturbing stuff, and this is
this isn't fun, like you like, it has to kind
of dovetail with period of your life where you feel immortal, um,
and so it kind of bounces off of you, the
disturbing nous of it, And then as you get to
be an adult you can kind of start to appreciate
the truly disturbing aspects of it, but it's still tempered
(30:14):
by that, you know, teens and twenty something doing that
you remember as well, just coming into it like this,
You know, late forties is not a good time to
start watching Texas Jainsaw mask Man. I feel for you.
I liked it. I mean I thought pretty much appreciate it.
It is well it's a classic alright, Chuck. So we've
kind of hinted a little bit at the idea that
not everybody's on board within historic district and for you know,
(30:38):
getting a real designation, like a local designation where there's
actual restrictions on you, the person who owns the home
um can or can't do things without permission from a
board of people you might not even have ever met
in your life. UM. You the for it to be
really successful, you need the community hind that to to
(31:01):
get that designation. And everybody going in with their eyes
open saying, okay, you know this is We're willing to
spend the extra money on wood. We're willing to um
spend the extra money on you know, a hand handmade
window if one breaks, because we're not allowed to replace
the original single pane windows that make it twenty degrees
(31:22):
in our house all winter long. Like we're we're we're
going in with our eyes wide open like that. But
even if most of the community does, there's probably still
going to be somebody who says, I'm a libertarian, I
don't believe in this kind of stuff, and I'm really
not happy about this, And that person is basically going
to have an historic district shoved down their throat. Yeah. Um,
(31:45):
And you'll probably not you, But if you are that person,
you will be the one that's vocal. If you know
about the meeting and you're there and you want to
make hay, but you can be overruled. Uh, and all
of a sudden you are subject to those whims Berterians
hate that. Well, there's a bunch of sides to this
coin here. Um. One is, there's a bunch of factors.
(32:07):
One is, let's talk about the pros. How about that? Yeah,
I mean one of the pros is many times, uh,
it increases property values because there's a standard that has
to be upheld in your house and those around you
won't be falling into disrepair. Right. And Plus, if you
are like if you're if you're housing prices are stable
and rising in relation to the rest of the town,
(32:30):
your tax base, your your taxes also tend to rise
to and so these areas very quickly start to become
very wealthy areas of town. So it's a wait for
for people to basically secure their investment in their property. Yeah,
and I guess we're talking about disadvantages mixed in here too,
because there's some people that say, hey, in the US,
(32:53):
that's can be code for keeping the wealth in the
in the pocket of the few. But is who's going
to be owning these houses? Are people that have a
lot of money. Yeah. There's a guy named Kristen caps
Um who wrote an article on City lab back in
two thousand and sixteen that basically said the the um
(33:13):
inequality and housing in the housing pricing crisis related at
the feet of historic preservation districts, which is pretty preposterous
in a lot of ways, but he did make some
real he sure, but the I think that his point was, like,
just do away with historic preservation for districts, for neighborhoods,
(33:34):
because most of these things are covered by zoning laws
that say you can only have single family homes in here. Well,
only certain people can afford really expensive single family homes
in UM with really high taxes, and so it keeps
out people who would otherwise love to enjoy this amazing
neighborhood with this, you know, these mature oak trees and
(33:57):
beautiful sidewalks and neighbors walking around being friendly and jos
on every corner, or really good schools that they're these
neighborhoods shouldn't just be for extremely wealthy people. But in
saying that it's only single family housing allowed in this,
no one can ever build a high rise with a
bunch of apartments that those people who who might be
(34:19):
able to afford to live in and enjoy the neighborhood.
And so there's so on the one hand, they're like, well, yeah,
we don't want high rises here, that it has nothing
to do with the historical architecture and it's a blight.
And other people say, well, you're also just keeping poor
people out too, So it's it's um it's definitely a
double edged sword, because that's that's very much accurate. But
it's certainly not the cause or even a major solution
(34:42):
to the housing crisis either. Yeah, and there are Republicans
in Michigan that are trying to do away with a
lot of these UM. I don't know about districts, but
maybe potential future designations, because their whole thing is like,
you don't want the federal government coming in here and
telling you what you can do and what you can't
do with your house, although it wouldn't be the federal government,
(35:03):
and that it would be local, be local, but these
must be state reps uh and local reps. But they're saying,
let's let's do away with some of this stuff, like
Michigan has far too many of these, and your freedoms
are being squashed right exactly, you want to paint your
house pink, then you should be able to. And so
some some preservation district commissions are a little more laid
(35:26):
back than others. Apparently in Georgia, UM, if you it's
up to you to pick what color you want to
paint your house, if they repairs you're doing are minor,
you don't have to have a certificate of appropriateness. And
then in other places it is a staunches is kind
of an understatement. UM. Old town Alexandria very famous, like
(35:47):
you can't do anything to the outside of your your
house in this old town district. But as a result,
it's an extraordinary it's an extraordinarily charming place to be
the like, tons of people who visit d C make
the trip over to Old Town just to go shopping
or to eat or to do whatever, just walk around. Um.
So that's another benefit of having an the story preservation district.
(36:11):
It attracts business or it attracts customers to businesses, and
very frequently you'll find an influx of tourism dollars coming
into this area too. Yeah, and you know we've talked
about before the legendary um fabulous Fox Theater here in
Atlanta are only remaining, like amazing, huge, old school Egyptian
(36:32):
style theater was was going to be a bank parking
lot in the nineteen seventies. Man Like, they were literally
going to put a parking lot there. And I remember
when I was a kid, they had to save the
Fox Theater campaign and it took you know, uh, these
celebrity benefit concerts to raise money. Ben Vereen did he come.
(36:53):
I could see it. It was the right era that
Frank Sinatra came. He was one of the big wigs.
Really yeah, yeah, Frank came to Atlanta and perform to
raise money. And I was like, no, you can't tear
down the Fox, guys. That's my Frank. It was okay,
I should have gone with Sammy. You should have done
a Charleston accent for Frank. But uh, that's the other
(37:14):
side of the coin, which is like if people don't
I mean, there was a time in this country in
the fifties, sixties, and seventies where that could, that can
very easily happen, and that did happen in downtown Atlanta.
If you look at old pictures of downtown Atlanta, it
looked like New York, a smaller version of New York City.
And uh, you know, now we've gotten some of that
(37:35):
character back. But there was a period where they just
tore down everything old in favor of putting up these bland,
white buildings in the name of like the future, and
they called the urban renewal. And thankfully, in the last
ten twenty years, I'm not sure where the idea came from,
people said, no, you can have the same effect. You
can have businesses, you can have mixed use development by
(37:56):
reusing and rehabilitating these these same buildings. You don't have
to tear it down and build something new. It's usually
cheaper to do that, but it's much better if we
do it the other way. And kind of preserved the history,
and that's definitely become the push lately. But yeah, there
was definitely a period in the middle of the last
century where a lot of stuff was torn down and
(38:17):
as a result. I was on a website I can't
remember the name of it um where they were listing
the most boring cities in the world the world, chuck,
and the first one was Atlanta. What the reason. One
of the criteria they were using was history like history,
like how much history is just kind of mixed into
the the fabric of the city. And part of it
(38:38):
is all the tearing down that they did in the
fifties and sixties, but also part of it was um
late at the feet of General Sherman who burned the
town to the ground and burned up a lot of
the history as well on the March to the Sea.
So Atlantis has kind of had a twofold um knock
around where a lot of historical stuff was not preserved
(39:00):
and was actually torn down. As a result, it lacks
a certain amount of character because it compared to other
cities that have more history, the old twofold knock around. Uh, yeah,
that's that's a dumb I mean I'm not saying this
just because this is my hometown. Atlanta is not the
most boring city in the world, in the world. That
was in the top ten the dumbest thing I've seen ever.
(39:23):
Uh Well, here's the other thing too. I think there
is a and this isn't necessarily about preserving history, but
I think there's just been a general return to taste
and craftsmanship across the board in the last like fifteen years.
And some people may call it hipsterism or whatever, but
you know, people there are artists and bakers now, and
(39:44):
you know, handcrafted cocktails instead of fern bars, and when
they are building new buildings, they're trying to make them
blend in. And I just feel like there was a
time where I think every everyone in America thought the
future was just going to be sterile and white, and
these sterile, white buildings were going up everywhere, and these
(40:04):
and the baseball stadiums that were just round white objects.
And then starting with Camden Yards in Baltimore, they started
building these old style ballparks and that's all you see now.
And I think that's just across the board. Is I
think people are respecting craftsmanship in history a lot more
than they did for a long long time, like decades.
(40:25):
I agree, But it is true that that comes at
a price because if you look at those neighborhoods where
you know, they are being rehabilitated and preserved by the
people who are moving in there. As they're doing it, um,
they're raising the home values and which also raises the taxes,
and so people who have traditionally historically lived in these
(40:46):
neighborhoods are being pushed out of the neighborhood. So so
that is one part. It's one facet that has yet
to be cracked, like how do you how do you
keep a neighborhood you know, um mick, as far as
like income goes or use goes, Like how do you
how do you really preserve that kind of thing. So
(41:06):
so it's not just like, yes, we're preserving this neighborhood
at the expense of the residents who used to live here,
because it's you know, richer people who are coming in
and rehabbing areas gentrifying basically what we're talking about that
in our gentrification podcast. Okay, but but that's a that's
a big thing. So it is a criticism of historic preservation,
but it's certainly not a reason to do away with
(41:28):
historic preservation. And one of the other challenges I've seen is, Okay,
so let's say we're going to allow somebody to come
in and build a high rise in this amazing historic neighborhood.
Do you really think they're going to be building it
for low or mixed income people to move into. No,
They're gonna build it for the wealthiest people, who probably
have even more money than the people who own the
(41:50):
houses in this historic district. And it's not going to
help this housing crisis at all. It's just going to
exacerbate it and will have ruined a perfectly beautiful, uh
historic district in the process. We should totally do one
on gentrification. I agree. I agree. I love episodes like
these where it's like, oh, what's the resolution? There is none?
(42:12):
Yet you gotta stay tuned. Everybody. We know you're very
anti resolution. So I've read before that people who read
fiction uh tend to be able to deal with open
ended like endings more than people who don't, which is
weird because I don't read much fiction these days, but
(42:32):
I can still I still hang with with no resolution,
no closure, no closure, you got anything else, nothing else?
You're just waiting for me to stop talking. It looks
like maybe, Well, if you want to know more about
historic districts, why don't you go try to get your
place put on the national register. Why don't you as
you do that, let us know how it goes. Maybe
(42:54):
keep us posted um in the meantime, though, first, before
I tell you how to get in touch with us
to keep us posted, let's say it's time for a listener, ma'am.
I'm gonna call this government shutdown follow up. Hey guys,
I'm a member of the permanent government in d C.
I thought you did a great job. It was great.
The emphasize the cost of a shutdown is the key
(43:15):
thing most people don't understand. These things aren't just a blip.
I want to point that the effects of the last
shutdown still aren't over. When we got back to work,
we were told that it took the agency six months
to recover from the previous shutdown that lasted sixteen days.
And these things are exponential, not uh linear. With the
(43:37):
thirty five days shutdown, we just don't know how long
it's gonna take to catch up. We have settled into
our normal and just expect to miss deadlines. The people
we serve regularly understand and are working with us, but
I don't think the general public gets it. You can't
just push back all deadlines by thirty five days because
new work is constantly coming in. There's no pause button.
Just because the government is shut down. We're all working
(43:59):
to catch up. It hasn't happened. It's not like we
can blame the shutdown either. People don't understand how work
submitted after the end of the shutdown can still be
affected by it. But we can't just double our workload.
There's only so many hours in a day. And that
is from Nate. Thanks Nate. It was a nice little
follow up. Yeah, thanks for bringing us down here, right.
(44:20):
We had just kind of gone out on such a
mediocre level, and it's down level. Well. If you want
to get in touch of this, like Nate and bring
us down or to keep us posted on how it's
going to in your quest to get your house or
your neighborhood on the National Register of Historic Places, you
can go onto stuff you Should Know dot com and
check out our social links there, or you can send
us an email to Stuff Podcast at iHeart Radio dot com.
(44:48):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeart Radio.
For more podcasts My heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app,
Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey everybody, and welcome to the Saturday Selects. I'm Charles W.
Chuck Bryant, co host of Stuff You Should Know, and
this week we're going to dive into the archives to
talk about an episode that I quite enjoyed. Actually it's
about historic districts. I don't live in a historic district.
I kind of wish I did. I live in an
old house from the ninet thirties and there's a lot
of old houses around me, but it ain't a historic district.
(00:24):
And the reason I know is because I did this
podcast on them, and just having old houses around doesn't
make it a historic district. If you want to find
out what that really means, well then just open up
your ears and continue to listen and you'll be done.
So please to enjoy our Saturday Selector this week all
about historic districts. Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a
(00:49):
production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Josh Clark, There's Charles W. Chuck Bryan, There's Jerry
over there, and that makes this Stuff you Should Know.
Say the clock tower, that's good? Like that it's good?
(01:12):
Just popped into my head. Oh for real? Yeah, I
wasn't reading this article and doing this research thinking back
to the future, back to the future. I'm surprised it
just popped into my head. I actually hadn't thought about
back to the future at all. But but that's a
really that's very appropriate, Chuck. But that is not a
historic district. That is just a landmark building. I think
(01:33):
that could still it could still qualify for a registry
on the National Register of Historic Places. It just wouldn't
be a historic district, which is what we're talking about today.
Maybe this should just be the end of the podcast,
the end, Chuck. Have you ever gone into a neighborhood,
just been walking around town, and all of a sudden
(01:55):
you realize that you're in the most charming, adorable place
you've ever been in your life. Sure, well, then you've
probably been in a historic district. Yeah, this is pretty cool.
I feel like this. We haven't done one like this
in a while. You like this when I was fully
expecting you to say like this so much. I love
(02:15):
historic places, I know, but sometimes Yeah, I don't know
why I thought that, but I'm glad that you I'm
glad that it panned out. I actually selected it because
I knew you were gonna hate it, so, you know,
eggs on my face. This is I don't know. It
kind of harkened back to some of our episodes we
used to do, like row houses and shotgun houses. Uh, yeah,
that's that stuff. Saw houses, Yeah, yeah, shotgun houses. We
(02:39):
did do a full episode on shotgun houses. Yeah, and
their architectural importance. I thought that was a pretty good episode, agreed.
I think we released it as a select recently too,
didn't we m I don't think I did. But that
might have been one of your picks. I don't think
I did. It was Jerry ghost producer. We need to
let Jerry select him some from time to time. Jerry
did time for that stuff. That's fine. She needs nothing
(03:02):
else on her plate besides me, so that's true. And
overseeing the largest podcast program in the world. Yeah, it's
pretty impressive. Years Jerry said, thank you. Yes she does.
She's aid thank your holding me so super in her mouth. So, um,
I think I've already kind of gotten the intro out
(03:23):
of the way where I asked if you've been in
a charming area and said you've probably been in a
historic district. Well, I mean, there's a good chance that
you have if you've been in the United States, because
there are more than of them. Yeah, that's a lot.
I mean there's all over the place. And you might
say like, okay, well that's great. Who this is an
area that has been designated to have some sort of
(03:44):
historic significance. Um, can I please go to sleep now?
It will say no, no, please don't go to sleep yet,
because there's a lot more to it. And in one
of the more surprising twists you're ever going to have
in your entire life, it's actually controversial historic districts can
be Oh yeah, yeah, did you not read that one article? Yeah?
(04:04):
I was just being coy. Okay, my stomach just bottomed
out in terror. So should we talk about Charleston, South Carolina? Yes,
a place where I well I didn't go there. I
went to the beach near there. Oh, the Isle of Palms, yeah,
just a few weeks ago. Oh yeah, but we were
within uh spitting distance of Charleston, South Carolina. Why would
(04:27):
you spit on Charleston, I wouldn't. I love it. Bill
Murray lives there, for God's sakes, Yeah he does. Apparently
he's a man about town there and I think his
family lives there too. Yeah, that's why he lives there.
Oh gotcha. Yeah. So, uh, they formed the very first
historic district in the United States. Yeah, they established the
(04:47):
Board of Architectural Review And this quote here is pretty great. Uh.
This is the official quote from that Architectural Review board.
Can you please read it in the mid Atlantic accent?
Mid Atlantic? Why that? Because that's the that's the one,
the old timey one. Okay that you're probably going to use.
I was going to do an old Southern thing. Oh
(05:08):
that's okay, yeah, no, that's way more, way better. The
preservation and protection of the old historic and architecturally worthy
structures and quaint neighborhoods, which in pought distinct aspect of
the city of Charleston. That is, that was beautiful. They
actually have quaint neighborhoods in their charge. Yeah right, So,
(05:29):
I mean, like, from what I've read too, Charleston like
actually is legitimately interested in its architecture and preserving its architecture. Yeah, although,
as we'll see later, there are some people that think
Charleston didn't do it right. Oh is that right? Yeah,
that's in the article at okay, so, or that they're
overdoing it. That's how I took it. Yeah, sure, okay,
(05:51):
cool cool. So but Charleston was the first one to
basically say, this is historically significant architecture. This is a
historically a significant area you and we want to make
sure that it stays that way. So we're going to
add a layer of protection, legal protection over this area
that the rest of the city doesn't have. And within
(06:12):
five years the word had spread to New Orleans and
they said, that's a pretty good idea. Chief, We're going
to do that for the French Quarter. Is my New
Orleans accent? That uh yeah, and that you know, what
they're basically saying is is that it can be either one.
It can and it all depends on your local jurisdictions,
(06:35):
which we'll get to. But historically or aesthetically, these buildings
in this area, they're linked together, right, And so the
Charleston thing basically provided the Charleston and then the New
Orleans when basically provided the groundwork, which was this area
is protected, and we're going to form a board who
is charged with making sure that it stays this way
(06:55):
as much as possible. We're going to vest some legal
authority into them, and these people are you have to
go through if you want to do anything significantly um uh,
altering to the exterior of your place if you live
in this area or have a business there, right, or
maybe not even significantly depending on where you are. So
kind of like you know, plotted along this idea. It
(07:17):
was around for a couple of decades, and then this
whole process of urban renewal that was kicked off after
the highways started being built. Um in part because of
the highways, because people were saying, wait, you're gonna you're
gonna blow right through you know, the Lower East Side
in Chinatown with this highway in in Manhattan. We don't
(07:38):
want you to do that. This is worth protecting, so
build your highway elsewhere. And then also as the highways
were built and traffic started being rerouted away from other towns, um,
these other towns that used to be thriving started to
fall into disrepair. Some people are saying like, hey, let's
knock down these old buildings and build new ones and
maybe business will come back. Um It in initiated this
(08:00):
idea that no, no, we've got some historic stuff here
and we need to protect it. And it really started
to kick off in Earnest in the in the fifties,
and by nineteen fifties six, the federalites had gotten involved
and through the National Park Service established the National Historic
Preservation Act that said, you, MPs, you're in charge of
designating what's his an historic site and what's not. That's right,
(08:23):
and uh in nineteen sixty six they created the National
Register of Historic Places run by the National Parks are
or not run but I guess just sort of maintained. Sorry, yes,
I said nineteen fifty six. I'm in nineteen sixty six. Okay,
I got everything else right, Yeah, that's right. So, um,
here's a deal. You can be listed on the National Register.
(08:46):
And that's really like that doesn't I mean, it means
something I don't want to say. It doesn't mean a
whole lot. But if you really want to protect something,
you have to go with your local historic district. You
have to create and protect it locally. That's a very
big deal. But we're gonna go over both national and state,
(09:07):
which is sort of like national, and then local, which
is pretty different. It actually is, but it's really it's
impressive that the local level is the one that has
the real teeth as far as historic districts are concerned.
As it should be so, but most people want to
start out with the national district at the very least,
because there's a certain amount of cache to it to
having your place designated as a National Historic um either structure, district,
(09:32):
or area. But there's there's multiple things that can fall
under or be um logged onto the Register of Historic Places.
Apparently in other countries they have similar registers, but they'll
include things like events, um people, just not necessarily things
(09:53):
or objects. But in the United States there's a real
emphasis on place and situation and buildings in particular. And
so if you're on the National Register of Historic Places,
you are two things. You're an object and you're inanimate,
and you probably are in situated in a specific area.
You're like where you are, what you are is kind
(10:16):
of tied to the area you're around. That's the real
focus of the United States National Register of Historic Places.
That's right. So there are five overall categories. Buildings, it's
pretty obvious. Structures also kind of obvious, but that could
be it says in here that could even be an
aircraft as a structure. Yeah, I saw that there's a
grain elevator in the Fox, Illinois that's protected because it's
(10:40):
an example of the transition between one story and two
story grain elevators. Amazing, It is amazing, And I don't
want to yuck anybody's this thing about this like to me,
like if you can see, chuck, I'm bleeding a little
bit out of the corner of my eye from being
bored and even saying that since but I'm sure there
are people out there appreciate the different architecture of grain elevators.
(11:03):
And that's the point. It means that if it's on
the National um Register of His Story Places, it is
important to some group of people. And so don't you there, yum,
even if you find it's boring, agreed, because they might
find what you find interesting and boring. Number Three, it
can be an object. Number four. It can be a
site and this is a big one, uh in the
(11:25):
United States because like Civil War battle fields, um, stuff
like that Applach and trail. Yeah, the MLK Historic Site. Sure,
it's like a bunch of well we'll tell you, we'll
talk about that later. Or it can be a district,
which is basically some kind of combination of those first four.
Um or just let me group like you know, the
(11:46):
street has has ten houses. Ten ten beautiful Victorian houses
are all built by the same architect and so this is, well,
we're going to consider this a district, right, So like
maybe in each of those instances, of one of those
houses was in a neighborhood, it might qualify for designation
as a historic building. But if you put them together,
(12:08):
because they're together, they form this district, which is, you know,
the some of these parts form something larger and that
connects them. And um, there's a couple of qualifications that
they have to meet to to be part or listed
on the National Register. Um. Almost without exception, they have
to be fifty years old. I think the law is that, um,
(12:32):
it has to be exceptionally important to be younger than
fifty years old and still be designated on the Historic
Places Register. That's right. Uh. The other thing it has
to be is significant, which sounds kind of broad, but um,
and I guess it kind of is. Because significance is
in the eye of the beholder. But that's why we
have boards and things like that to determine whether or
(12:54):
not they think it's significant to behold things for us.
And then finally it's got to be evaluated that's significant
and historic context, which kind of speaks for itself, like
it did any great history happen there? Um, well, you
know it was this Bob Dylan's house in Minnesota when
he was a child. Although I don't know if that's
(13:14):
on the list. I just threw that out there. It
could be. I mean, it could be that's that's a
that's a home run. But say, like let's say you said, um,
well this this building used to house soda shop, a
soda shop that made pretty good chocolate malts, um, and
so it's representative of that time. Well, if you were
on the board looking at this application, you would look
(13:35):
around and try to put it in context, like, yes,
people liked chocolate malts at soda shops at one period
in American history, But was this the place where chocolate
malts were invented or is this the place where everyone
widely agreed made the best chocolate malted. It's like no,
Like it has a history, but not necessarily significant history
(13:56):
in context of the larger era that it's a part of,
so it would probably get passed over. Yeah, like the
four sort of historic context that you you have, it's
not shoeing necessarily, but you have a good chance if
if something important historically happened there, like this is the
place where so and so was shot and killed or
(14:18):
born perhaps who on a more up note, okay, uh,
did someone live here that was significant? George Washington slept here?
Sure or associated with them? Didn't have to live there necessarily? Um?
Is it related to a certain architectural period or method
of construction? Like that's a that's a big one for
the Park Service, sure, like this is the um, this
(14:41):
is the last house to be used that used plaster
and laugh for their walls. Or there's a there's a
college in Florida called Florida Southern College that is like
the entire campus was designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. So
that is clearly going to be accepted on the National Register.
Or finally, was their information at this place that is
(15:03):
historically important? Yeah? Or might there be because they can
afford protection to say, like an archaeological site that's a
known archaeological site that they haven't really dug yet, Like
we'll find it right there, saying there's a pretty good
potential that some information or history or historical significance will
be yielded from investigation of the site. But we want
to protect it now before developers come in. That's right.
(15:26):
Here's the thing though, if you want to be a
historic district, um, that doesn't like if you if you
want to say like these three square blocks or historic district,
that doesn't mean that every single property in there is
what's called a contributing property to that district. Yeah, they're
non contributing properties are allowed. Sure, Like if you have
those fifteen Victorian houses on a block and then there's
(15:49):
the one, you know, the one modern mcmanchin, right, that
that's non contributing. I think we can all agree. But
it doesn't disqualify the rest of the area in as necessarily.
It just it depends on um. From what I've seen,
it's very much a subjective measure. How much that mcmanchin
detracts from the field or the um authenticity of the
(16:13):
rest of the site what they call um integrity. Yeah,
that's really kind of interesting, I think, because all this
stuff is subjective. But the integrity there is how that
the physical characteristics of that property reflect, like on this day,
reflect that significance historically. Right, So like if you have
that row of Victorian homes, but every single one of
(16:36):
them was altered in the sixties or the seventies or
the eighties, and the people inside made some really weird
decisions and so altered the interior the exterior of these homes.
That yes, they were all part of this Victorian era,
and they were once pretty good examples of it. They
aren't any longer. Even though it qualifies for all these
(16:58):
other things, it would not be consider ordered UM a
site with integrity, and it might get passed over unless
everyone agreed to restore the houses back to that Victorian era.
That's the status letter to get I think is I'm
sorry you've been denied because your property has no integrity
pretty pretty much, you know, and you, sir, do not either.
(17:19):
That's how they finish every letter like that. Should we
take a break and talk about how you might create
a historic district? There is one other thing before we do, Chuck,
I think it's a fine idea. I'm not shooting down
your idea, but I do want to point out that
UM areas have to be unified, not necessarily physically, visually geographically,
but somehow they have to be linked to be considered
(17:41):
a district. That's all right, now, you wanna take a break, yes, okay,
if you want to know, then you're in luck just
to ex Alright, So if you're a person and you live,
(18:08):
let's just take us for instance, Like let's say I
wanted to get my house in my neighborhood and in
Atlanta recognize as it or my block as a historic
National Historic District. Okay uh. And the real reason I
want to do this is because of the street near
my house. They're going to expand and it's a real
(18:30):
bummer because they're gonna have to tear down, um a
few of the houses that are really what I think
are significant, and they might take possession of that little
strip of land that you've been exercising squatting on. More importantly,
they will take my little strip of land, right, Okay,
So what would you do? Like, what what are you
(18:50):
gonna do? And um, as step one took to protect
your home, well to place it on the National Register.
I would start at the state, uh, the Historic Preservation Officer.
And this is a person every state has one. You
can go to the NPS website to find out who
yours is and get in touch and they're basically gonna
(19:11):
help you out with I mean, you're gonna you're gonna
plead your case, of course, but they're gonna help you
fill out this form um explaining why. I mean. They
may say listen, don't even bother, But what they're supposed
to do is help assess whether or not it might
be eligible and help you fill out all your national
forms to send in. Right, they might say like how
(19:31):
old your house? And if you're like, oh, it's Bill
in the nineties, it's still pretty nice, they'll be like,
don't don't bother, that's right. But um, you're since you
have never done this before, your dinghis at it, and
they're there to help you figure this out and how
to do it right. They're not the ones who are
going to judge this. A board will, and typically a
state board um for a state historic preservation board. Their
(19:55):
review board is made up of people who know what
they're talking about. Architects, his story us, archaeologists, anthropologists, people
who have been trained in this stuff, who can say, yeah,
this actually isn't that great. There's a much better example
of it. You know, a couple of blocks over. As
a matter of fact, why don't we go to the
other place and make that a historic district? And then
(20:15):
you're like, no, snobs, but um, the the officer that
you are contacting, it's their job to help you get there,
your application in in state your case, and then get
it in front of the review board who will then
take it from there and say this is a great idea,
there's a terrible idea, or I don't care either way,
(20:37):
and it's time for lunch. Approved. That's right. And this
is again going for that National Register. And one reason
you might want to do this is because here's the thing.
It's it's sort of a badge of honor um, like
we said before, and we'll we'll uh, we'll talk about
again later about the local one. That's one you really want.
But if you are on the National Register, it does
(20:59):
provide you with some legal protections federally, so if that
road is a is a federal highway project, then it
could protect your house, or even better, even if it's
a local or a state project, if it's getting any
federal funding whatsoever, same thing applies sure where they have
to say what's going to be the impact on any
(21:21):
historic district of this project? And if the impact is
deemed too great, the project won't go forward. So there
is there are some protections for it but for the
most part it's kind of symbolic and there's a little
bit of cache, and you know, you can put it
on your zealo page that your house is part of
a national historic district, right, but you can't. They can't say,
(21:41):
I mean you can. You can live in a historic
a national historic home, and you can let it fall
into disrepair and look like garbage. And they can't come
in and say, whoa, whoa, whoa, you're you're on the
National Register. You can't let your house fall into disrepair
like this, right, Yeah, clean yourself up. You gotta stain
on your shirt, get a shape, what's your problem. They
don't say that, as those are individual property rights, and
(22:04):
it's only up to local governments to infringe on individual
property rights, not the state or federal government. So while
the state or federal government will have laws restricting its
own activities in regards to historic districts, like expanding a
road or something like that. Yeah, if you get on
the National Register of Historic Places, your whole neighborhood gets
(22:24):
on there. Your neighbor can do whatever they want with
their house. Still, So if that was your whole employ
all along chuck to really keep your neighbor from doing
something like, say, I don't know, putting a second story
on their house. Um, you're going to find that you
have been frustrated. That's right. Um, you can go to
the state, But the state is basically like federal um
(22:46):
as far as protections and stuff like that go. Where
where the real teeth come in is with the local
historic districts, and it is very different. They don't have
to meet the same guidelines a lot of times very similar,
but they don't have to have the same exact guidelines
as the national historic districts do. So the first thing
(23:06):
that you're gonna need, though, is there's got to be
an ordinance, a local preservation ordinance, which is basically just, hey,
here are the rules on how we do this around here. Here,
here's how we're gonna identify these houses. And here's what
it means if you have one right so, and this
isn't like this is like square one stuff like this
(23:27):
is what a city has to do before it ever
creates its very first historic district. If your city has
already done this, then you would just basically go through
the same process that you would with the National Register
in applying to get historic designation for your neighborhood in
your city from your local municipality. But if they've never
(23:47):
done it before, they've got to create new legislation for it,
new laws protecting you know, historic areas. And then they
also have to set up a preservation commission to basically
the same thing that that Charleston, South Carolina did all
the way back in nine team thirty one. That's right.
So you're gonna go in front of the commission. Uh,
They're gonna hold some public hearings where people can come
(24:07):
and argue the case for or against. Yeah, because not
everybody likes this idea. No, not everyone does, as we'll see, Um,
you have to have in fact, it's it's kind of hard.
You have to have, like the community has really got
to be behind this in order for this to go through. Hey. Yeah,
in most cases, from what I've seen, you need a
majority of homeowners and business owners in the area to
(24:29):
agree to this. And I think even if the opposition
is particularly vocal and mad about it, it's they still
might be able to derail local ordinance designation. That's right.
But it's all going to be considered by the commission. Uh,
and they're gonna make that recommendation to the officials. They're
gonna say, you know you're gonna reject this. Are you're
gonna say it's okay? Is it all great or not?
(24:52):
And here's a deal. If you get named local historic district,
this is when um, they can say, oh no, no, no, no,
you live in a historic home in this district. You
can't let it fall out of disrepair. You can't. There
was this one case where was it in Maryland? I
think where? I guess these front porch columns, Um, we're
(25:16):
being replaced by a family and they skimped a little
because what is expensive and used whether use fiberglass or
something right, and they said, no, no, no no, no, you
can't do that because you live in the historic district
and you have to use uh these original materials to
preserve this house. Yeah, you gotta use you would like
you said. I don't know. Maybe they were like, we
don't want to cut down a tree, or maybe they
(25:37):
were just cheaping out. But um, I think they sued
or yeah, I believe they sued in order to try
to keep them. But that's a really typical. UM. Part
of any local historic district ordinance is if you're going
to make any kind of repairs, especially significant repairs, any
alterations to the exterior, anything like that. You need to
(25:59):
use historic, clear, accurate materials. Well, you have to submit
it for approval to a local design review board too, right, Sorry,
I got ahead of us. So the first thing you
have to do is say, I want to replace the
columns in the front of my house because they're falling apart.
I want to replace them. Um, can I please do that?
Please sir? Please let me and the local review board
(26:20):
or commission will analyze this and they'll say, sure you can.
But this is what they have to look like. This
is the materials they have to um, they have to
be made out of, and this is the color that
they have to be painted. And you have to follow
that or else you can be fine. They can place
a lean on your property, and um, the penalty can
be pretty stiff. Actually, yeah, And here's the thing, Like
(26:42):
I can at least understand this and what we'll and
we'll talk later about, you know, freedoms to do what
you want with property that you own. But this I
can stomach a little bit. And we've talked about homeowners
associations before. Those are the ones that really get me
to where it is not historically significant. It is an
(27:02):
ex urb with seven hundred houses and a subdivision that
require you to have the same mailbox. Right. So the
in that sense, having a homeowners association covenant, UM and
having a historic preservation district on a local level where
they both have teeth that they can actually, you know,
(27:23):
find you or tell you what to do to the
exterior of your house or your yard. The point is
the same in this sense, and that they're trying to
keep things a certain way, right at least, I think
what you're saying is, at least with the historic district,
they're trying to preserve something that has been deemed historically important,
whereas with the suburb, it's just they want to make
(27:44):
sure everybody's lawn is cut or that just looks the same,
or no one paints their house pink or whatever. But
they have the same aim, which is like, this is
what we're all saying is very nice and pleasant. I
just watched Pleasantville last night for like the five hundred
times good movie, but oh man, it's so good. But um,
we've all agreed that this is pleasant and this is
(28:06):
what we want our area to look like, and then
this is how it's going to stay and you can't
change it. And if you do, you have to petition,
and this review board can tell you know you can't
do that. Yeah, And of course I know that the
answer to my problem with these ex orbists don't don't
move there then like you know the stuff going in,
then don't buy a house in that neighborhood. And I
think most people who do buy out there are pretty
(28:28):
aware of that, and I think some of them are
looking for that because it tends to protect property values.
Like you're never going to have a neighbor who just
parks like a boat with a moth eaten cover over
it in their front driveway for five years. Um, Like
that's just not gonna happen out there. But at the
same time, it's also eye bleedingly boring to live out
(28:49):
there as well. Can I also just say that I
love that You're Halloween October movie watching is pleasant? Bill?
Do you know how I watched last night The Texas
chains On that it was so good? The original? Yeah,
I had never seen it. Can you believe that? Uh? No,
I had never seen it. That's really surprising. What do
(29:10):
you think? Uh? Wow? It was it was disturbing. Yeah,
that hammer scene that he drags out for like twenty
minutes of the hour and twenty minute long movie. Yeah,
it was tough. Um, And I realized that, you know,
I'm prepping for a movie crush h slasher movie special,
But um, I didn't. I never watched a lot of
(29:31):
that stuff growing up. But I don't know if it's
because I was churchy, sure, but just rail answer right
there that maybe so, because and I don't think it
was like, oh I thought I would be in trouble.
I think just like the people I was around didn't
really get into that stuff. So you missed a really
crucial window in horror movie watching, because yeah, I can
see coming into it as an adult, you're like, like
(29:52):
you said, this is highly disturbing stuff, and this is
this isn't fun, like you like, it has to kind
of dovetail with period of your life where you feel immortal, um,
and so it kind of bounces off of you, the
disturbing nous of it, And then as you get to
be an adult you can kind of start to appreciate
the truly disturbing aspects of it, but it's still tempered
(30:14):
by that, you know, teens and twenty something doing that
you remember as well, just coming into it like this,
You know, late forties is not a good time to
start watching Texas Jainsaw mask Man. I feel for you.
I liked it. I mean I thought pretty much appreciate it.
It is well it's a classic alright, Chuck. So we've
kind of hinted a little bit at the idea that
not everybody's on board within historic district and for you know,
(30:38):
getting a real designation, like a local designation where there's
actual restrictions on you, the person who owns the home
um can or can't do things without permission from a
board of people you might not even have ever met
in your life. UM. You the for it to be
really successful, you need the community hind that to to
(31:01):
get that designation. And everybody going in with their eyes
open saying, okay, you know this is We're willing to
spend the extra money on wood. We're willing to um
spend the extra money on you know, a hand handmade
window if one breaks, because we're not allowed to replace
the original single pane windows that make it twenty degrees
(31:22):
in our house all winter long. Like we're we're we're
going in with our eyes wide open like that. But
even if most of the community does, there's probably still
going to be somebody who says, I'm a libertarian, I
don't believe in this kind of stuff, and I'm really
not happy about this, And that person is basically going
to have an historic district shoved down their throat. Yeah. Um,
(31:45):
And you'll probably not you, But if you are that person,
you will be the one that's vocal. If you know
about the meeting and you're there and you want to
make hay, but you can be overruled. Uh, and all
of a sudden you are subject to those whims Berterians
hate that. Well, there's a bunch of sides to this
coin here. Um. One is, there's a bunch of factors.
(32:07):
One is, let's talk about the pros. How about that? Yeah,
I mean one of the pros is many times, uh,
it increases property values because there's a standard that has
to be upheld in your house and those around you
won't be falling into disrepair. Right. And Plus, if you
are like if you're if you're housing prices are stable
and rising in relation to the rest of the town,
(32:30):
your tax base, your your taxes also tend to rise
to and so these areas very quickly start to become
very wealthy areas of town. So it's a wait for
for people to basically secure their investment in their property. Yeah,
and I guess we're talking about disadvantages mixed in here too,
because there's some people that say, hey, in the US,
(32:53):
that's can be code for keeping the wealth in the
in the pocket of the few. But is who's going
to be owning these houses? Are people that have a
lot of money. Yeah. There's a guy named Kristen caps
Um who wrote an article on City lab back in
two thousand and sixteen that basically said the the um
(33:13):
inequality and housing in the housing pricing crisis related at
the feet of historic preservation districts, which is pretty preposterous
in a lot of ways, but he did make some
real he sure, but the I think that his point was, like,
just do away with historic preservation for districts, for neighborhoods,
(33:34):
because most of these things are covered by zoning laws
that say you can only have single family homes in here. Well,
only certain people can afford really expensive single family homes
in UM with really high taxes, and so it keeps
out people who would otherwise love to enjoy this amazing
neighborhood with this, you know, these mature oak trees and
(33:57):
beautiful sidewalks and neighbors walking around being friendly and jos
on every corner, or really good schools that they're these
neighborhoods shouldn't just be for extremely wealthy people. But in
saying that it's only single family housing allowed in this,
no one can ever build a high rise with a
bunch of apartments that those people who who might be
(34:19):
able to afford to live in and enjoy the neighborhood.
And so there's so on the one hand, they're like, well, yeah,
we don't want high rises here, that it has nothing
to do with the historical architecture and it's a blight.
And other people say, well, you're also just keeping poor
people out too, So it's it's um it's definitely a
double edged sword, because that's that's very much accurate. But
it's certainly not the cause or even a major solution
(34:42):
to the housing crisis either. Yeah, and there are Republicans
in Michigan that are trying to do away with a
lot of these UM. I don't know about districts, but
maybe potential future designations, because their whole thing is like,
you don't want the federal government coming in here and
telling you what you can do and what you can't
do with your house, although it wouldn't be the federal government,
(35:03):
and that it would be local, be local, but these
must be state reps uh and local reps. But they're saying,
let's let's do away with some of this stuff, like
Michigan has far too many of these, and your freedoms
are being squashed right exactly, you want to paint your
house pink, then you should be able to. And so
some some preservation district commissions are a little more laid
(35:26):
back than others. Apparently in Georgia, UM, if you it's
up to you to pick what color you want to
paint your house, if they repairs you're doing are minor,
you don't have to have a certificate of appropriateness. And
then in other places it is a staunches is kind
of an understatement. UM. Old town Alexandria very famous, like
(35:47):
you can't do anything to the outside of your your
house in this old town district. But as a result,
it's an extraordinary it's an extraordinarily charming place to be
the like, tons of people who visit d C make
the trip over to Old Town just to go shopping
or to eat or to do whatever, just walk around. Um.
So that's another benefit of having an the story preservation district.
(36:11):
It attracts business or it attracts customers to businesses, and
very frequently you'll find an influx of tourism dollars coming
into this area too. Yeah, and you know we've talked
about before the legendary um fabulous Fox Theater here in
Atlanta are only remaining, like amazing, huge, old school Egyptian
(36:32):
style theater was was going to be a bank parking
lot in the nineteen seventies. Man Like, they were literally
going to put a parking lot there. And I remember
when I was a kid, they had to save the
Fox Theater campaign and it took you know, uh, these
celebrity benefit concerts to raise money. Ben Vereen did he come.
(36:53):
I could see it. It was the right era that
Frank Sinatra came. He was one of the big wigs.
Really yeah, yeah, Frank came to Atlanta and perform to
raise money. And I was like, no, you can't tear
down the Fox, guys. That's my Frank. It was okay,
I should have gone with Sammy. You should have done
a Charleston accent for Frank. But uh, that's the other
(37:14):
side of the coin, which is like if people don't
I mean, there was a time in this country in
the fifties, sixties, and seventies where that could, that can
very easily happen, and that did happen in downtown Atlanta.
If you look at old pictures of downtown Atlanta, it
looked like New York, a smaller version of New York City.
And uh, you know, now we've gotten some of that
(37:35):
character back. But there was a period where they just
tore down everything old in favor of putting up these bland,
white buildings in the name of like the future, and
they called the urban renewal. And thankfully, in the last
ten twenty years, I'm not sure where the idea came from,
people said, no, you can have the same effect. You
can have businesses, you can have mixed use development by
(37:56):
reusing and rehabilitating these these same buildings. You don't have
to tear it down and build something new. It's usually
cheaper to do that, but it's much better if we
do it the other way. And kind of preserved the history,
and that's definitely become the push lately. But yeah, there
was definitely a period in the middle of the last
century where a lot of stuff was torn down and
(38:17):
as a result. I was on a website I can't
remember the name of it um where they were listing
the most boring cities in the world the world, chuck,
and the first one was Atlanta. What the reason. One
of the criteria they were using was history like history,
like how much history is just kind of mixed into
the the fabric of the city. And part of it
(38:38):
is all the tearing down that they did in the
fifties and sixties, but also part of it was um
late at the feet of General Sherman who burned the
town to the ground and burned up a lot of
the history as well on the March to the Sea.
So Atlantis has kind of had a twofold um knock
around where a lot of historical stuff was not preserved
(39:00):
and was actually torn down. As a result, it lacks
a certain amount of character because it compared to other
cities that have more history, the old twofold knock around. Uh, yeah,
that's that's a dumb I mean I'm not saying this
just because this is my hometown. Atlanta is not the
most boring city in the world, in the world. That
was in the top ten the dumbest thing I've seen ever.
(39:23):
Uh Well, here's the other thing too. I think there
is a and this isn't necessarily about preserving history, but
I think there's just been a general return to taste
and craftsmanship across the board in the last like fifteen years.
And some people may call it hipsterism or whatever, but
you know, people there are artists and bakers now, and
(39:44):
you know, handcrafted cocktails instead of fern bars, and when
they are building new buildings, they're trying to make them
blend in. And I just feel like there was a
time where I think every everyone in America thought the
future was just going to be sterile and white, and
these sterile, white buildings were going up everywhere, and these
(40:04):
and the baseball stadiums that were just round white objects.
And then starting with Camden Yards in Baltimore, they started
building these old style ballparks and that's all you see now.
And I think that's just across the board. Is I
think people are respecting craftsmanship in history a lot more
than they did for a long long time, like decades.
(40:25):
I agree, But it is true that that comes at
a price because if you look at those neighborhoods where
you know, they are being rehabilitated and preserved by the
people who are moving in there. As they're doing it, um,
they're raising the home values and which also raises the taxes,
and so people who have traditionally historically lived in these
(40:46):
neighborhoods are being pushed out of the neighborhood. So so
that is one part. It's one facet that has yet
to be cracked, like how do you how do you
keep a neighborhood you know, um mick, as far as
like income goes or use goes, Like how do you
how do you really preserve that kind of thing. So
(41:06):
so it's not just like, yes, we're preserving this neighborhood
at the expense of the residents who used to live here,
because it's you know, richer people who are coming in
and rehabbing areas gentrifying basically what we're talking about that
in our gentrification podcast. Okay, but but that's a that's
a big thing. So it is a criticism of historic preservation,
but it's certainly not a reason to do away with
(41:28):
historic preservation. And one of the other challenges I've seen is, Okay,
so let's say we're going to allow somebody to come
in and build a high rise in this amazing historic neighborhood.
Do you really think they're going to be building it
for low or mixed income people to move into. No,
They're gonna build it for the wealthiest people, who probably
have even more money than the people who own the
(41:50):
houses in this historic district. And it's not going to
help this housing crisis at all. It's just going to
exacerbate it and will have ruined a perfectly beautiful, uh
historic district in the process. We should totally do one
on gentrification. I agree. I agree. I love episodes like
these where it's like, oh, what's the resolution? There is none?
(42:12):
Yet you gotta stay tuned. Everybody. We know you're very
anti resolution. So I've read before that people who read
fiction uh tend to be able to deal with open
ended like endings more than people who don't, which is
weird because I don't read much fiction these days, but
(42:32):
I can still I still hang with with no resolution,
no closure, no closure, you got anything else, nothing else?
You're just waiting for me to stop talking. It looks
like maybe, Well, if you want to know more about
historic districts, why don't you go try to get your
place put on the national register. Why don't you as
you do that, let us know how it goes. Maybe
(42:54):
keep us posted um in the meantime, though, first, before
I tell you how to get in touch with us
to keep us posted, let's say it's time for a listener, ma'am.
I'm gonna call this government shutdown follow up. Hey guys,
I'm a member of the permanent government in d C.
I thought you did a great job. It was great.
The emphasize the cost of a shutdown is the key
(43:15):
thing most people don't understand. These things aren't just a blip.
I want to point that the effects of the last
shutdown still aren't over. When we got back to work,
we were told that it took the agency six months
to recover from the previous shutdown that lasted sixteen days.
And these things are exponential, not uh linear. With the
(43:37):
thirty five days shutdown, we just don't know how long
it's gonna take to catch up. We have settled into
our normal and just expect to miss deadlines. The people
we serve regularly understand and are working with us, but
I don't think the general public gets it. You can't
just push back all deadlines by thirty five days because
new work is constantly coming in. There's no pause button.
Just because the government is shut down. We're all working
(43:59):
to catch up. It hasn't happened. It's not like we
can blame the shutdown either. People don't understand how work
submitted after the end of the shutdown can still be
affected by it. But we can't just double our workload.
There's only so many hours in a day. And that
is from Nate. Thanks Nate. It was a nice little
follow up. Yeah, thanks for bringing us down here, right.
(44:20):
We had just kind of gone out on such a
mediocre level, and it's down level. Well. If you want
to get in touch of this, like Nate and bring
us down or to keep us posted on how it's
going to in your quest to get your house or
your neighborhood on the National Register of Historic Places, you
can go onto stuff you Should Know dot com and
check out our social links there, or you can send
us an email to Stuff Podcast at iHeart Radio dot com.
(44:48):
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Chuck Bryant
Josh Clark
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