August 30, 2025 • 53 mins
A pair of old timey fossil hunters had a rootin’ tootin’ rivalry that spilled from academic journals into the American Wild West - where fossils were dynamited and employees turned double agent. Learn about the two-fisted origins of American paleontology in this classic episode.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, Happy Saturday, everybody. What were the Bone Wars? Why
am I asking you? Because I'm the one who knows.
This episode was from August of twenty nineteen, and it
was all about the Bone Wars, something I knew nothing
about until we did this episode. One of the top
three reasons why I love this job. I get just
a little bit smarter every week, and I hope you
(00:21):
do too.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Please enjoy.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and
there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there
and ra That was a limp limp. Laugh, Chuck, I've
gotten way better laughs out of either.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Are you a dinosaur A little bit?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I got a little dinosaur, Me got a little in
the end, tall in me earned from twenty three in me. Yeah,
But despite my dinosaur heritage, I was never a big
time into dinosaurs as a kid. Were you?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
No?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Not?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Like It's astounding, Chuck, how similar we were as children.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I know the only princes I didn't smoke. When I
was seven years.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Old fourteen, I was the ripe old Asian four again.
I started smoking so It wasn't like I don't know
if it was the same with you. It's not like
I had anything against dinosaurs or kids who liked dinosaurs.
I thought they were kind of cool. And I had
some like like figurines here or there, But it wasn't
anything like I was nerdy about in any way, shape
(01:43):
or form.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, And I mean I think there was there's a
certain movie that really really got kids into dinosaurs, The
Lost World No Ferrispeeler's Day Off right, and that movie
came out, you know when I was older.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yeah, same here I was.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I even remember what year that was. I feel like
I was in college, though.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I want to say it was like ninety two to
ninety four, one of those years. That's what I would guess.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
But kids these days are and it's not just my kid,
but I see lots of kids in her age group
that are obsessed with dinosaurs.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah, and I think that's cool, Like, what a cool
thing to be obsessed with it? Kid teaches you so
much stuff you know about the deep past, about evolution,
about you know, walking lizard bird creatures. You know, there's
a lot, there's a lot to learn from, like being
interested in dinosaurs, that's a very cool thing to be interested.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
In about death and extinction.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Sure, rotting, fossilization.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, all the good stuff, right.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
But the whole interest, including the interest that was around
when we were kids, that just kind of passed us by.
But definitely, you know, the interest in dinosaurs that gave
rise to the idea of Michael Crichton even writing Jurassic
Park and then Steve Spielberg even making it into a movie.
That interest in dinosaurs in America you can actually trace
(03:05):
back to almost a specific winter in a specific place
in the nineteenth century, and the winter of eighteen seventy
seven in particular, and it was the result of a vicious,
mean spirited, petty rivalry between two paleontologists that really kind
(03:27):
of sparked America's interest in dinosaurs.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, I mean it feels very Tesla. Who's the other guy?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Oh, what was his name? Marconi maybe? Or Ferris Bueller.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, that's it really reminded me of the Tesla Ferris
Bueller rivalry.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Ferris won that one square and the.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Current Wars, which, by the way, that movie's coming out.
Have you seen the trailer about.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
The no who plays who?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You know?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I can't remember now, but I saw it the other
day and it looks it looks pretty good.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Nicholas Cage plays both roles. O, God, how great.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Would that be?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
It would be pretty great ac DC right.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Just like that's two hours right there, right.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
There's actually going to be a movie, or there was
going to be a movie about what we're about to
talk about today. Did you know that now?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I kind of wondered though.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, it was scheduled for production. Steve Carell was going
to play Cope. Oh and James Gandolfini was going to
play Marsh and James Gandalfini died unexpectedly and the production
just got kiboshed.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
And they also found out that the title The Bone
Wars had already been taken by a adult pornography. Yep,
we're so on the same page.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
We totally saw children.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
No interest in Jurassic Park or any dinosaurs, but we
think the names of porno films is hilarious. That's our
big interest.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So I thought it was funny.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You know, we commissioned this piece for the Grabster and
he's a big dinosaur guy, and he was somewhat shamed.
He was like, I just and he said it two
or three times, like, I can't believe I didn't know
about these guys.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yeah, we're like, it's okay, Greb, sir, it's all right.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
But so I feel like he learned something along the
way and he starts out, and I think it's a
good thing for us to talk a little bit about
just before these dudes, how paleontology came about and that
had you know, I think since people just started stumbling
upon bones, even by accident, before it was even a discipline,
(05:29):
people were like, oh man, look at that thing.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I'm going to pick that up and take it.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
With me, right.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
I think they used to get classified also as mythological
creatures or dead gods or something like that. But the
first documented paleontological expedition in North America was carried out
by none other than Lewis and Clark. Yeah, did you
know that before? Did we mention that in the episode?
Do you think?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I don't know, but I did know at some point
from somewhere. Maybe it was the the ken Burns piece,
but that, you know, one of the things they did.
I mean, they were logging everything, including bone deposits.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
But they spent like a week around Salt Lick flats
or salt lick gully or salt lick something where there
was a big old salt like that used to attract
dinosaurs and plesisteine mammals from two different periods. Everybody putre
emails away and the bones that would collect there were
(06:30):
really significant, so they spent a week like excavating there.
But that was the first one. But that was even
before the world the word paleontology was coined.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, that was in eighteen twenty two in the French
journal de Physique. And there were a couple of people
that preceded, and in fact, one of whom went on
to be a sort of a mentor to Cope. But
a goy named Edward Hitchcock and another guy named Joseph
is it Lighty or Leady?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
I think Lighty is what I've seen the most.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, laid Y, and he's the one that went on
to work with Cope later on. But just put a
pin in this. But in eighteen fifty eight a pretty
important find, basically the only big dinosaur find on the
East Coast, where the fossil ee bones of a herbivore
name Hadrosaurus Folky in New Jersey, and it was a
(07:25):
big deal because it was on the East Coast and
this is where this stuff was going on at time,
and you get a lot of footprints on the East Coast,
but not a lot of finds like this.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, it was an enormous find and Lighty was called
in to help excavate it and put it together because
he was America's first vertebrate paleontologist. He was the first
guy and was really prolific and really good at what
he did, and like you said, would eventually become a
mentor to one of the guys we should probably introduce now,
(07:56):
because Lighty was working in I think first real burst
of energy came in the eighteen fifties, the early eighteen fifties,
and within about fifteen maybe twenty years, there were a
pair of guys who would come along and just completely
change the field of paleontology. It started out very normally,
(08:17):
just another scientific field, very exciting, lots of discoveries to
be made. I mean that's the point of all this, right,
is that, like if you have a brand new scientific field,
everything you come across is worth writing about describing. You
get to name everything. So it was a really exciting,
like dynamic time for the field of paleontology. But a
(08:38):
field of science is the character of it is based
on its earliest practitioners. And Lighty was a very steady,
normal scientist who was very reliable. So he kind of
set paleontology up like that. But then along came a
couple of guys who would form this rivalry and they
would change all of that. I don't think necessarily to
(09:00):
this day, but there was a lot of sniping that
used to go on in the field of paleontology. That
was because of the tone that these guys set.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, and both of them would end up basically bankrupt
at the end of each of their lives because of
all their efforts to outdo and undermine one another's work.
So we're talking about two dudes. One is Marsh and
one is Cope.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Oth Neil. I've never heard that name before.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
I think his parents made it.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Up, maybe O t h n I e Othniel. Charles
Marsh born in October eighteen thirty one in New York
and he was They didn't have a lot of money
in his family. They were farmers. He would have been
a farmer, but he had and this kind of really
changed his life. He had a very rich uncle named
George Peabody, who would go on to really kind of
(09:57):
fund his education in early part of his career later on.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, he just plucked him out of the farm field
basically and said, and I have no idea why he
did this, but he said, you, I like the look
of you and your brain, nephew, and you're going.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
To go for smart would be My guess was that it?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Okay, Well, I don't know how he demonstrated it, I
guess is what I'm trying to say, Like, how did
his uncle say, yes, you're the one.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Oh, you know, smarts are always evident.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Okay, Well, he plucked him out, sent him to boring school,
then sent him to Yale, and eventually sent him off
to grad school in Germany. So, Marsh, we're just going
to call him Marsh because his name is just too
ugly and horrible to say out loud. Yeah, he was
basically set. He was fine. He had a benefactor in
his extraordinarily wealthy philanthropist uncle.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
So Cope, on the other hand, similarly had money, but
his was like in his family, he wasn't like poor
with a rich uncle. He had a wealthy family, very
prominent family in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He was born in July
eighteen forty, and he went to you know, all the
I was gonna say trappings, but I guess all the
benefits of being born into money. He went to very nice,
(11:09):
expensive boarding school, and that wasn't so much up his alley.
So he dropped out when he was sixteen. And because
he had a rich, rich dad, it allowed him a
lot of opportunities that other people wouldn't have, including, you know,
going to college later on, even though he never graduated
(11:29):
high school.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, well there, so it was definitely in part because
of his dad. But also this was a time in
like say the eighteen fifties lax. It was lax, but
also like even if you wanted to go on and
become like a get a PhD, American universities weren't you know,
they didn't offer many PhD programs in sciences, right, So
(11:54):
there was a there was a whole something called gentleman
naturalists who were amateur, self taught scientists who just just
did the work. They knew what they were doing, they
figured it out as they went along, and they actually
developed some of these fields. And so he kind of
subscribed to that school where that old school of gentlemen
(12:15):
naturalists where there was you could you could go figure
it out yourself without needing to go through the university.
But he did that just on the cusp like our parents'
generation was just on the cusp of the last group
who could get away without knowing how to use email.
He was like part of that last generation that could
become a scientist without having to go through formal training
(12:38):
at a university.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Right, Like if you have a tweet suit with a
stiff color and a pencil and a pad, you can
end lots of time on your hands.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Yeah, and that's that's I mean, to Cope's credit, I
think that that really kind of demonstrates like he's like, no,
I'm going to go learn from experience. He did knocking it,
but he did get entree into places like the University
of Pennsylvania or the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia
because of his family's context. But I get the impression
that he worked his way into those places. Once he
(13:09):
got in, he he didn't just loaf. He learned what
he needed to learn.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, I mean, because if there's one thing we're going
to learn about Cope here over the next thirty minutes
or so.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Is he worked hard?
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yes, he's my pick of the bone wars. He's who
I put my money behind.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Is he your guy?
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yep?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Interesting?
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Did we ever say his name Edward Drinker Cope, Yeah,
that's a weird middle name.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
It is.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
He was a drinker, literally, he really was.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
He was.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Also he was also a Quaker and a pacifist too.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
So at college at University of Pennsylvania, that's where he
met Joseph Leidy. He was one of his professors, so
that just, you know, kind of kickstarted their relationship. During
the Civil War, he went to Europe the American Civil
War because he didn't want to be you know, want
to go to war.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
He didn't want to go fight. He wanted to go
dig up bones.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, and he was a Quaker pacifist too.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
So he went to Germany and in eighteen sixty three
he met marsh and they really liked each other at first.
They had a lot in common, obviously, And I get
the feeling that in Germany in eighteen sixty three there
were probably not a ton of Americans who were super
interested in dinosaur hunting. And so they locked up became
(14:26):
really good pals. They came back to the US after
the Civil War and friends, and we're both like, all right,
we're going to go do our thing independently, but we're
going to keep in touch. We're going to swap info
early on here. And it was all very friendly at first.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Right, And I think you can make a pretty good
case that they probably cut their own palms and clasped
hands and became blood brother brothers during the German meeting. Okay, probably,
So that's what we're going with, because they really did
like each other and things were going along just fine.
Two kindred spirits with a common intro paleontology, and they
(15:03):
may have continued on that way, although I sincerely doubt
that that's the case, which means I just undermined my
own statement. But after the Civil War they both went
back to the United States to start careers, their own careers,
and marsh or Cope, I'm sorry. He had connected with
Joseph Lighty, who he had met through the University of
(15:26):
Pennsylvania and the Academy of Natural Sciences. They worked together there,
and so he went off with Lighty to study bones
that were found at hadden Field in New Jersey, where
Lighty found that first skeleton, right, and so being friends
with Marsh, he naturally, Cope naturally extended an invitation, Hey,
come visit me in the field. You got to see
this place. It's amazing. There's fossils everywhere. You're gonna love it.
(15:48):
And so Marsh came out for a visit. And this
was mark one in the turning point of their relationship.
There were two distinct marks, each of them point to
one is the end of their friendship. This was the
end of their friendship starting with Cope.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
That's right. So both of these guys had privilege, like
we've been talking about. For Marsh's part, his uncle, his
rich uncle, donated one hundred and fifty grand to Yale
basically to sort of get March a job. They created
the Peabody Museum of Natural History, and then they were like, well, hey,
(16:25):
we need a professor to chair this new department, and
so why not your nephew, And they said, Bully, that's
a great idea. So it basically costs one hundred and
fifty grand to get Marsh this job is the chair
of Department of Paleontology at this new Peabody Museum at
Yale University.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Right, And so they said, yes, we want to make
you the first professor of paleontology in America. And Marsh said, yes,
that's a great idea. I like where you're going Yale.
I'm going to spend a lot of time here, I
can tell. So that's that's Marsh setting off on his
little trajectory, basically ensconcing himself in Yale.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Cope, remember he was basically a high school dropout and
he had to kind of make his own way. He
had trouble at first finding a position until he struck
upon a place called Haverford College and he got a
position as a professor of zoology there, and they said, well,
(17:27):
you're a high school dropout, so we'll just give you
an honorary Masters of Arts degree, being now you're a professor.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Was working out for both of these guys.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, although Cope didn't really like have her for that much.
He ends up quitting and it actually kind of it
kind of describes his personality a little bit, that that
incident that he would get a good job having kind
of been carried into that position, and then says, this
(17:59):
job is bs some quitting that he was apparently prone
to kind of a quick temper here or there.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, I mean it's ed does make the point.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
It's kind of hard to piece together a personality from
someone way back then. But by most accounts, Cope was
a bit mercurial, a little more outgoing. Marsh was a
little quieter and kind of known as a bit of
a flake, you know. But considering their backgrounds, it sort
of makes sense where they ended up. Marsh, you know,
(18:29):
they went about their work in very different ways. Marsh
didn't publish his first paper until he was thirty years old.
He was a lifelong bachelor. Cope married when he was
twenty five. And Cope, you know, even the way they
wrote co wrote these very sort of flowery descriptions of things. Well,
Marsh was much more sort of rigid and sort of
(18:50):
dry and scientific.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Yeah, Like if you read Cope stuff, he's trying to
like set the scene for you. You know, there's one
paper where he was describing terror acts, and like it's
a scientific paper, so all you have to do is
describe the bones and the measurements and extrapolate and that
kind of stuff. But he's like painting the picture of
what it must have been like on a cliff side
by the ocean as a troop of these things were
(19:13):
dangling by their claws. You know. Yeah, it's super cool.
It would definitely transport the reader there, and it was
a little extra dollop of something that you didn't have
to put on. But Cope definitely did put on, which
is surprising that he put anything extra into his work
because he published at an extraordinary pace, so much so
(19:34):
that Marsh in particular was like, this man is obviously fraudulent.
Nobody can publish this much.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, for sure. And we'll touch on that a bit later.
The big difference in their earlier careers was when it
came to religion. Like you said earlier, Cope was a
Quaker and was a religious man.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Marsh was not.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
He was not very into religion, and he was fully
down with evolution and natural selection and Darwin, whereas Cope
kind of had to make it all fit within his
religious beliefs. So it's not like he outright like called
Darwin a fraud or anything like that, but he worked
in like the actions of God into his theories and
(20:17):
sort of made it all work according to his you know,
religious beliefs.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Which is I mean.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Back then a little a little bit different, but even
back then for a scientist, sort of an odd thing.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Yeah, for sure. But he tried to rectify science and
his religious belief and the way that a lot of
people did that back then was to subscribe to neo Lamarckism,
which is this idea that changes in a population take
place on the individual level. Like an example I saw
was if you're a blacksmith and you use your arm
(20:52):
a bunch to hammer, you're going to get a big
old bulky arm.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Well, when you have kids, you're going to pass that
bulky arm that you developed in your lifetime off to them.
And that's how evolution happens. And it's much more directed
by God than what Darwin was saying, which is you're
just born with a random mutation, and if that mutation
happens to make it more likely for you to survive
to pass along your genes, then that mutation will get
(21:17):
selected by nature, which basically has nothing to do with God.
So there was a real struggle for Cope throughout his
lifetime rectifying the two, especially considering Chuck that the body
of work that he produced really helped prove Darwin's point
more than anything.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, for sure when it comes to like where things
went wrong, because they were still buddies up until this point.
It seemingly looks like Marsh drew first blood. Yes, we
mentioned that hadden Field dig earlier. So it's eighteen sixty eight.
Cope has left his job at Haversford. He's not very
happy there, so he leaves. He's really kind of feed
(21:57):
on the ground doing the work publishing paper which we'll
see later at an alarming rate, and working with Lighty,
who we talked about, and he invited Marsh because they're buddies,
and he was like, dude, you got to come check
this out. We found a legit dinosaur fossil on the
east coast. Marsh was like, great, I'll go check it out.
(22:18):
He loves what he sees and says, this is wonderful friend,
you're doing such great work here.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Pat on the back.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Then he sneaks back.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Later on by himself, yeah, and bribes the workers there,
Cope's workers and Lighty's workers and says, hey, man, if
you find any more good specimens, send them to this address,
and here's a little.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Dough for your effort.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Can you believe that.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, I mean just straight up sold him out right.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
So Marsh has just outed himself as a very wormy
type of fellow not to be trusted. And the way
that I saw there was a really great American Experience
episode called Dinosaur Wars that really kind of described it.
Like to Cope, he subscribed to that gentleman's skull type
of mentality, which was there's unwritten rules, you know, like
(23:04):
I came and showed you my quarry and you went
behind my back to steal my fossils from my quarry.
Not cool, That was Cope's take. From Marsh's point of view,
he was kind of from the business like American school
of just conquer it all costs, and he owed no
allegiance really to Cope in that sense that he saw
(23:26):
an opportunity and he took it. And that was Marsha's
view of the whole thing. But the Cope that was
like that was not very cool, and I'm going to
remember that, but I'm still going to tentatively remain friends
with you.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
All Right, Well, let's take a break and we'll come
back right after this and we'll we'll talk about what
Marsh always said was the reason they were no longer
friends right after this. All right, so Marsh has really
(24:14):
screwed his friend over. Yeah, behind his back, paid off
dudes to send him stuff. But according to Marsh, he's like,
that's not why we weren't friends anymore. That was not
what really killed our friendship at all. Here's what happened.
Later on that year, Cope published a paper establishing this
(24:34):
new species, elas Mosaurus pleantarious.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Nice, thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Marsh goes to the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philly
to check this thing out, because they're still sort of
friends at this point, and Cope showing off his things,
like look at this thing. I put this thing back
together and look at the skeleton. It's amazing, and said,
my friend, it appears you have fallen into the classic
paleontology trap and mounted the head on the butt.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
And this was a humiliating thing for Cope.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Sure, so much so that he realized, oh god, I
just wrote a paper describing this thing with its head
on the wrong end in the American Philosophical Society's journal,
and ran out and tried to buy as many of
these copies as he could just to cover up his
mistake and the way that the way that Marsh put
(25:32):
it later, because he ran around telling everybody he could
about this gas.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
He was very glib about it.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Oh, very very like he went. He just wanted to
make sure that everybody knew that Cope had screwed up. Right.
Whereas he characterized the story, he characterized himself in the
stories just having gently pointed this out, He basically said
that Cope's vanity was wounded and or his wounded vanity
received a shock from which it has never recovered, basically
(25:59):
saying like, not only did he get it wrong when
I gently pointed this out, this guy just flipped out
and he still hasn't forgiven me. So that's what happened
to our friendship. Never mind the whole going behind his
back thing at haddn't Field. This is really what happened.
But the thing is that story isn't even correct. It's
just like a sliver of the fuller picture, because the
fuller picture involves Joseph Lighty, who again remember was working
(26:22):
at the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia where this
skeleton was in the first place.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
That's right, So what apparently really happened is is Marsh
comes in and just says, oh, actually the neck vertebrae
is in the wrong position. That got everyone over there looking,
and Lighty is the one who actually said, oh, no,
you have the head in the wrong place where the
tail is. And to fully paint a picture here. This
(26:48):
wasn't like some huge, big deal like mistakes. It was
very early on in paleontology. Everyone was doing their best.
There was a lot of trial and error going on,
a lot of guesswork, and it wasn't like, oh my gosh,
you know, it's not like someone today drawing the head
of a bear mounted on his butt. They were doing
(27:11):
the best they could and it wasn't like some huge
error right.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
No. And it is true from what I understand that
Coke did run around trying to buy the copies of
the American Philosophical Society Journal that had the incorrect part
in it, and he was humiliated, especially the fact that
Marsh was involved. But it definitely wasn't Marsh running to
the rescue to save paleontology and Coke just being a voice. Overall,
(27:36):
it was definitely an incorrect picture that Marsh painted, But
regardless of how it's painted or what actually happened that
two prong attack on the friendship, both of them perpetrated
by marsh Frankly, if you ask me, that ended their friendship.
Like their their friendliness was basically out the door. There's
some evidence that in the following couple of years when
(27:59):
they wrote to one another, they would kind of jokingly
reference some of the stuff in the past, but that
even that eventually dried up and they genuinely became bitter rivals.
Made all the more pronounced when the West was opened
up by the Transcontinental Railroad, because all of a sudden,
you had said earlier that the fossil fields in the
(28:21):
East were well, the conditions of climate and geology in
the East were not conducive to preserving dinosaur bones. The
exact opposite is true of the Western United States, and
when the West opened up, it was like, come on.
In paleontology, the timing of the two is just astoundingly perfect.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, I mean, we're talking about the Dakota's Kansas, just
bones everywhere and not even too hard to find a
lot of times.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
If you were a paleontologist and you headed west, if
you had some protection, because this is despite all our efforts,
it was still sort of a dangerous area for a
white man from the east to be traveling around the
Native American tribes there, and the Western tribes did not
take kindly to a lot of.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
It, no, because think about it, like, they went from
you know, wagon trains of settlers coming through periodically to
trains daily moving people in and out. So it was
a big deal to the Western tribes who were fighting
back and pushing back against this encroachment and wave that
was coming much more strongly than it had been before
(29:30):
the railroad too.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
So from this point on, the guys took very sort
of different I guess we're forced to take different approaches
to their careers. Cope basically spent the rest of his
life as a working paleontologist, like feet on the ground.
For the most part, he didn't work at a college.
He didn't work at a museum until much much later.
(29:53):
He was not like taking care of or funded by
the government, so he paid for all that. You know,
he came from a wealthy family, so he paid for
most of this stuff himself. Sold his farm, his family
Quaker farm, and got a big fat inheritance and started
going west and started amassing this big collection that was
actually his, which was a really big deal because since
(30:17):
no one was contributing to his financial burdens, he I
guess technically owned this stuff, right.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
He owned a farre and square. I mean, he financed
his own expeditions. He paid for the shipping and transportation
of these things, which is another thing. The railroad helped
it not only open the West, that helped ship enormous
bones back east to the museums. But he was paying
for this, so yeah, that his collection was his own. Marsha,
on the other hand, being ensconced in Yale, he was
(30:45):
able to rely on Yale, Yale families, the government contacts
that Yale had to finance the expeditions that he went on.
So in his mind it was his collection, but technically
it really wasn't because he hadn't financed any of it himself.
It had all been financed by others. The thing about
(31:05):
marsh though, Chuck, is that he was the first one
to make it out west, and because he was the
first one there, he basically considered the entire Western United
States his turf and everyone else was encroaching on it,
which is awfully rich. If you can remember what he
did to Cope back at Haddenfield, and so you know,
back then there wasn't any kind of ownership on any fossils.
(31:28):
But now that he's the first one out west, there
is such a thing, and they all belonged to him
for sure.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
So Cope then, you know, when it comes to academics,
they also were really really different in how they approached things.
We kind of teased earlier about how much Cope wrote
and published, and boy, it's astounding. It seems like he
published throughout his career about fourteen hundred academic papers. In
the eighteen seventies, he was doing about twenty five papers
(31:56):
a year, and in one winter alone of eighteen seventy
nine and eighteen eighty he published seventy six papers, very prolific,
to the point where it was pretty easy for someone
like Marsh to poke holes and kind of say that
he was either copying people, or plagiarizing people, or just
outright fraudulent, and that no one can write this much stuff.
(32:19):
It also presented a problem in that Cope he was
publishing so much that he had a hard time getting
stuff published as a while. After a while, because there
weren't a ton of scientific journals and they can't be like, listen, man,
we can't publish like ten things a month from you
or a quarter because we'll just call this thing the
Cope Journal. And he said, that's a great idea. So
(32:43):
in eighteen seventy seven he bought the American Naturalist Journal
for himself to publish all his own works, which ended
up being a really I don't know about bad choice,
but financially it is what really put the biggest dent
in his future fortunes was sinking a ton of his
own money into this American Naturalist Journal.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Oh was that right? I thought it was the silver mine.
The journals set him up for it.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Oh yeah, the silver mine was a last ditch effort
to try and make a little bit of money. Uh huh,
because he was almost broke by that point.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
So he but he does have this forum now, whether
it's a good business opportunity or not, he has a
forum to publish it. And like you're saying, he wrote
just so many papers. Not only was it just too
many for the journals to keep up with, there were
also a lot of questions from these journals, like, wait
a minute, if you're like a deliberate, thoughtful scientist, you
(33:38):
shouldn't be able to publish this much. And one of
the problems of the Bone Wars, the rivalry between Cope
and Marsh, that really kind of got both of them
to be the first to rush to name a species
or make some new discovery so that the other one couldn't,
is that there was a lot of sloppy work that
came out of it. And when there's a lot of slappy,
(34:00):
sloppy taxonomical work where the same species is getting different
names from different people at the same time, that takes
a lot to entangle. And apparently it took paleontology many
decades to kind of undo some of the sloppy work
that was kind of late at the foundation of the
field in the eighteen seventies.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Yeah, and especially at Cope's feet, because for his part,
Marsh was very much more methodical, did not publish nearly
as many papers, But along with that comes a lot
more prestige. No, no one's going to talk about Marsh
and say that he's publishing too much, he's doing sloppy work.
So as a result, they were published in some really
(34:43):
prestigious journals over the years, kind of almost exclusively, and
he had, like you said, Yale behind him, so he
would take students a lot of times to make them
pay their own way, because this is all a very
expensive endeavor for the time you know, cope was sort
of created, and how he would fund some of this,
like he would latch onto other Western expeditions that had
(35:05):
nothing to do with paleontology. This was one called the
Wheeler Survey, which was a mapping expedition that he was
able to hook up with. So he would cut corners
and save where he could. But with the power of
Yale University behind him and these students who would pay
their own way, Marsh had a real advantage.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
When it came to staking his claim out West right.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
And also there was one of the first expeditions he
went on was funded by the families of some Yale students,
So it was some you know, Yale students and Marsh
basically playing cowboy out west and the first I guess
the first day once they arrived out West where they
were going to dig, Buffalo Bill Cody shows up basically
(35:47):
kind of like as a guest star, to appear and
just delight and thrill the Yale boys, one of whom
wrote about the whole expedition, and the whole thing got
published in Harper's. So the whole thing kind of demonstrates
that Marsh, as much as he's kind of seen as
like this meek, deliberate scientist, was also really good at
self promotion too.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Oh for sure, he would wear a gun.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
I think he sort of fashioned himself as a Teddy
Roosevelt type or maybe a Buffalo Bill type. And yeah,
he would toot his own horn for sure. For his part, Cope,
after his father passed away, spent less and less time
out west in the actual field, more time in Philadelphia,
and he would hire guys out and in fact, Marsh
(36:31):
would later go on to do a very similar thing
where they would have their diggers out there excavating and
then sending bones back to the East coast where they
could do their dig in and do their studying there.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Right, And it's out west that the famous bone Wars
really started to take place. But like you were saying,
neither Marsh nor Cope were there, But what was going
on out west, all the dirty deeds and all that
stuff were at the direction and behest of these two.
You want to take another break and then get into
what the bone wars are really all about Yeah, okay, we'll.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
Be right back, all right, Chuck.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
So the eighteen seventies roll around the West has opened
up from the Transcontinental Railroad. It's giving up its fossils.
It's just crazy how well preserved fossils are out there
because of heat and dryness and wind erosion exposes them.
And there was a part of that American Experience documentary
(37:51):
where they showed a picture of like just this landscape
that you could see from the train, and they said
that that some expedition was riding by and figured that
they were riding by just a rock out cropping, and
they realized there was just a field covered in dinosaur bones.
That it wasn't rocks, it was bones. That's how many
(38:13):
bones there were out west. So the West is starting
to yield this stuff. And just one place would become
like a treasure trove, and another place would become a
treasure trove. And each of these places, some prospector would
find a big bone and the first thing they would
think of was, I need to either get in touch
with Cope or Marsh because these guys are going to
(38:33):
want to know about this and they'll probably pay big
bucks for it. And that's really once they stopped mounting
their own expeditions. That's how they got most of their
bones was from amateurs getting in touch with them.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, so this this would open the door for these
guys to really kind of get underhanded. They would hire
guys away from each other. They would pay for information
about the other person's digs and the bones that they
were getting. They would out bid one another, and like
you know, eventually, like I said, both of these guys
would end up pretty much financially ruined in the end.
(39:06):
There were reports of sabotage of theft. There were reports
of dynamiting the other persons like digs in their camps.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Well, one thing I saw listen to this, marsh ordered
that if his men couldn't get bones out of like
a find, like they just couldn't get it out, he said,
smash them, do not leave them, because I don't want
Cope to possibly be able to get them himself.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Not only that, but the bones that they would like,
smaller finds that they would dig up that they didn't
think were as important, they would smash so the other
person wouldn't have anything to do with them.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah, so they were smashing the fossils that they sought
for science because of their rivalry. That's the insane degree
that it reached.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yeah, and you know, it's easy now to And I'm
wondering if this, like how much they had to trump
this up for a movie script, because it seems like
some of this is exaggerated. I don't know if they
found actual evidence that they would dynamite each other's camps.
It seems like the most they would do is like,
you know, push dirt back onto the things that they
had dug up and not you know, again their lackeys
(40:13):
out there are doing this stuff. And you know, these guys,
this was all kind of perpetrated by Martian Kope themselves.
They would kind of trump up these stories in the
press and things to kind of make the other one
look bad. So while there were bone wars going on,
I'm not sure it was quite as like exciting as
they're made out to be.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Well, there weren't like shootouts or anything like that, but
I mean, just the fact that these two paleontologists are
trying to sabotage one another's career is kind of hilarious
in and of itself, you know.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Yeah, I mean and it could have you know, the
fact that these guys were driving each other.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
It's like this is the lens we look at it through.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Now, it's like, did this hurt the field of paleontology
or help it? And you can kind of look at
it from two angles. In one hand, what if they
would have worked together and pool their resources, maybe they
could have found a lot more and gotten a lot
more things straight that they didn't have to untangle later.
Or maybe because they were so competitive and drove each
other to work harder, maybe they were uncovering things because
(41:14):
of that, because they uncovered a lot of stuff, Like
they were both super prolific together. I think between the
two of them they accounted for one hundred and twenty
six new species of dinosaur and that's just dinosaur.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Yeah, and again this is at a time where you
could like stub your toe and look down and you
just discovered a new species of dinosaur because so little
work had been done in the field. But yeah, they
definitely did drive one another to work harder and faster
and try to outdo one another. And one of the
big benefits that the field saw that you can point
(41:49):
to in retrospect and even at the time was that
winner of eighteen seventy seven that I was talking about.
This is like winter in Wyoming. It's not a very
welcoming climate. And yet both marsh and Cope hired their prospectors,
their bone diggers to continue working through the winter. Rather
(42:10):
than taking a break like you traditionally would you dug
in the summer, wrote papers in the winter. They said, no,
keep going. This is just too The bones that are
coming out of this place are too good, and I
don't want my rival to be the one to take
them all out. So both kept working through the winter,
and out of that one winner, we got Triceratops, we
got a Patosaurus Vegasaurus. All from that one winner of
(42:33):
eighteen seventy seven. And if you can't look back and say, yes,
these guys drove one another to this level of discovery,
I don't know what you can say. I just throw
my hands up in disgust. Otherwise, did that make sense?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (42:49):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
I mean, as a paleontologist, you could literally just say,
you know, the triceratops, I discovered it.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Yeah, and that.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Could be it. That could be your career right there.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Let alone the stegosaurus on top of the triceratops, come on, sure,
and then a Patosaurus that may sound vaguely familiar. But here,
let me drop one on you that you'll say, Oh
you ready, Bronosaurus, same thing apparently.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, I didn't even fully get.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
I mean, this gets into the weeds with like serious
paleontology pedantry and nerding out, but yeah, I see Bronosaurus.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Allow me to nerd out for just a second. The
point of the Patosaurus Bronosaurus being the same thing with
different names is one of those things that's frequently laid
at the feet of Marsh is saying this was sloppy
work on Marsh's part, and maybe if he hadn't been
competing with Cope, he would have done better work. That's
probably not the case. But he named the same species
(43:50):
two different things because he thought they were two different species.
And a later paleontologist about twenty thirty years later came
along and said, I think this is the same thing.
Since the recalled the Patosaurus first, that's what we're going
to call this from now on, and so scientifically Bronosaurus
should have gone. I can't believe about to say is
the way of the dinosaur, But somehow it got into
(44:14):
the cultural zeitgeist, and everybody said, no, we like saying
bronosaurus more. I blame the Simpsons or the Flintstones because
of the Bronosaurus burger thing. Who knows if that's the
case or not, but that was supposedly the bronosaurs and
the Patosaurus are the same thing, and really you're supposed
to call him a patosaurus. There you have it, folks
(44:36):
nerding out.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
So in the eighteen eighties, this is after the big
rush of the late seventies, things started to change a bit.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
So Marsha's got a couple.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Of good jobs. He works at the US Geological Survey
and as the president of the National Academy of Sciences.
But financially they're not doing so great on either side because,
like we said earlier, they'd spend a lot of their
own money trying to outdo one another.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Right, So marsh is in a way, way better position
than Cope. This is actually at a point when Cope
is kind of against the ropes, but rather than both
of them just kind of going their own way, the
dinosaur wars have kind of ebbed a little bit, and
they can just kind of go off and work as
paleontologist for the rest of their life. Marsh decides to
come after Cope and deal him the death blow the
(45:26):
moment Marsh had a position of power that he could
use against Cope. He abused his position immediately. He was
very high up at the USGS, and he used that
connection to freeze Cope out of any chance of getting
any kind of government funding for any further expeditions. So
Cope was basically penniless, sorry Chuck, because he had invested
(45:49):
in that silver mine that he used the rest of
his money for. Basically the silver mine went bust, so
he lost all of his money. And now his greatest
enemy and rival was in charge of the purse strings
for government expeditions and had basically said you're not getting
a dime Cope. So Cope was left with his collection
and nothing else. That's bad enough, But then Marsh decided
(46:13):
to take it one step further and he introduced some
laws into the USGS. I guess bylaws that said if
a government, if a government program or agency has funded
an expedition, any fossils collected from that expedition belonged to
the government. And he sent the USGS after Cope's collection
(46:34):
he tried to take Cope's collection, the only thing Cope
had left. He didn't have his family anymore. He was
living alone in like a tiny apartment surrounded by his collection.
It was all he had left, and Marsh tried to
take it from him, and actually Marsh failed because Cope
could prove that he had paid for most of it.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
That's right, And it was that collection that kind of
funded the rest of his life. He would sell off
parts of it here and there when he needed to
make rent and stuff like that. He did get a
job in eighteen eighty nine, he was hired as professor
of zoology at the University of Pennsylvania, so that's good.
At least he had a little bit of an income.
And they were dead to each other at this point,
(47:13):
though spent a lifetime battling each other. Cope was just
infuriated at the links Marsh would go. It was all
just very petty at this point, and neither one of
them come out looking great because of a career of
sort of backstabbing each other. And they went to the press.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
In the end. I think it was Cope.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
He had taken these copious notes over his life about
all the grievances he had against Marsh over the years,
and he went to the New York Herald. They published
an article about this, but it ended up just making
both of them look bad. It made Marsh look bad
because the things he did made Cope look kind of
petty and angry about everything. And this is all kind
of played out in public in the press.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Right and in this first article when Cope went to
the Herald, he accused not just Marsh of like wrongdoing,
but also the USGS of corruption, and that actually got
the interest of Congress, who started investigating and ended up
cutting the USGS's budget by like half. So Marsh ended
(48:19):
up losing his job and his position as had paleontologist
at the USGS. And in a beautiful ironic twist, that
law that he himself had inserted in through the USGS
that anybody whose collection had been financed by the US
government could lose that collection meant that he actually lost
(48:41):
his collection. The government came after his collection and took
a substantial chunk of it for itself because it had
financed so much of his expeditions. So it ended up
turning him and biting him in his own rear, and
he lost a lot of his collection, which really burned.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
So Cope died first.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
He died in eighteen ninety seven at the age of
fiftyifty six, but not before he would issue a challenge
to Marsh, which is, I'm leaving my body in my
brain to science, and I bet you my brain's bigger
than your brain.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Marsh never took the bait.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
He died in eighteen eighty nine of pneumonia at the
age of sixty eight, and by all accounts, did not
take part in this brain measuring competition, this posthumous competition
in the grave, which I think is kind of funny.
But that brain, I think Cope's brain is still still
(49:34):
under the ownership of the University of Pennsylvania today.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
It still wanders the halls at night, amazing ghostly brain.
That's the surprise ending of this one.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
That's right, And I guess in the end Marsh is
credited with eighty species to cops fifty.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Six, which is not bad. Plus also Cope has that
fourteen hundred papers under his belt too.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
It's a lot of papers.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
Anything else about the bone wars, Nope, Well that's it, everybody,
there's I think there's a drunk history episode about this.
I never saw it, but it looks pretty good. I
would recommend the American Experience episode on it and just
go read up more on it because it's pretty interesting stuff.
And since I said it a bunch of times, just
now it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
All right, I'm gonna call this Civil Air Patrol. This
is from Jackson Cherblatti.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
Can I ask you a question? Yes, there was a
big influx of Civil Air Patrol emails out of nowhere.
Did you notice?
Speaker 2 (50:37):
I did not.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Yeah, we got like a handful of them just out
of the blue, and I didn't know if something happened
or what. But I guess it's making the round somehow.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Who knows. Maybe we're on the Civil Air Patrol.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Watch list web blog. They you did so from Jackson.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
He says, I have been a listener for about seven years,
since I was ten years old. Anyway, I'm a senior
mass sergeant in the Civil Air Patrol and I've been
in it for about two and a half years. I
was really excited you guys finally did a podcast on us,
as not a ton of people even though he exists.
Some say we are the Air Force's best kept secret.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
I don't know about that at fifty one.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah, might have something on you guys. It is nice
to get some publicity like that. Though, you guys totally
nailed it. Did an awesome job. Like always being a
cadet in the program. I'd like to hear more about
that part. Maybe you could do a short stuff on
it someday. Cadet life is more of a training life
than in actually doing the stuff, like learning how to
(51:36):
lead effectively in all that jazz. We also have a
lot of mini boot camp things that we go to
further our learning. Anyway, you did an outstanding job and
I would appreciate it if you could give a shout
out to my squadron, the Green Mountain Composite Squadron.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
It's not bad, not a bad name. Green Mountain Composite Squadron.
Sounds like a wholesale furniture material.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
I was gonna say it sounds like a sort of
a modern bluegrass band.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
Oh that's a good one too. Yeah, Like there's a
lot of synth invall.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Sure, okay, synth and mandolin Okay?
Speaker 3 (52:14):
And that was from Jackson. That's right, Jackson. Is he
the front man for this bluegrass band?
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Of course?
Speaker 3 (52:22):
All right, Well, thanks a lot for writing in, Jackson.
Hopefully we'll fulfilled all of your requests and if we
didn't ts for you, If you want to get in
touch with us like Jackson did, you can go on
to stuff youshould Know do dot com and check out
our social links, or you can send us a good
old fashion email, wrap it up, spank it on the bottom,
(52:42):
and send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
You Know, Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hello, Happy Saturday, everybody. What were the Bone Wars? Why
am I asking you? Because I'm the one who knows.
This episode was from August of twenty nineteen, and it
was all about the Bone Wars, something I knew nothing
about until we did this episode. One of the top
three reasons why I love this job. I get just
a little bit smarter every week, and I hope you
(00:21):
do too.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Please enjoy.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and
there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there
and ra That was a limp limp. Laugh, Chuck, I've
gotten way better laughs out of either.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Are you a dinosaur A little bit?
Speaker 3 (00:57):
I got a little dinosaur, Me got a little in
the end, tall in me earned from twenty three in me. Yeah,
But despite my dinosaur heritage, I was never a big
time into dinosaurs as a kid. Were you?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
No?
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Not?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Like It's astounding, Chuck, how similar we were as children.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I know the only princes I didn't smoke. When I
was seven years.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Old fourteen, I was the ripe old Asian four again.
I started smoking so It wasn't like I don't know
if it was the same with you. It's not like
I had anything against dinosaurs or kids who liked dinosaurs.
I thought they were kind of cool. And I had
some like like figurines here or there, But it wasn't
anything like I was nerdy about in any way, shape
(01:43):
or form.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Yeah, And I mean I think there was there's a
certain movie that really really got kids into dinosaurs, The
Lost World No Ferrispeeler's Day Off right, and that movie
came out, you know when I was older.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Yeah, same here I was.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
I even remember what year that was. I feel like
I was in college, though.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
I want to say it was like ninety two to
ninety four, one of those years. That's what I would guess.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
But kids these days are and it's not just my kid,
but I see lots of kids in her age group
that are obsessed with dinosaurs.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah, and I think that's cool, Like, what a cool
thing to be obsessed with it? Kid teaches you so
much stuff you know about the deep past, about evolution,
about you know, walking lizard bird creatures. You know, there's
a lot, there's a lot to learn from, like being
interested in dinosaurs, that's a very cool thing to be interested.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
In about death and extinction.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Sure, rotting, fossilization.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
Yeah, all the good stuff, right.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
But the whole interest, including the interest that was around
when we were kids, that just kind of passed us by.
But definitely, you know, the interest in dinosaurs that gave
rise to the idea of Michael Crichton even writing Jurassic
Park and then Steve Spielberg even making it into a movie.
That interest in dinosaurs in America you can actually trace
(03:05):
back to almost a specific winter in a specific place
in the nineteenth century, and the winter of eighteen seventy
seven in particular, and it was the result of a vicious,
mean spirited, petty rivalry between two paleontologists that really kind
(03:27):
of sparked America's interest in dinosaurs.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah, I mean it feels very Tesla. Who's the other guy?
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Oh, what was his name? Marconi maybe? Or Ferris Bueller.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
Yeah, that's it really reminded me of the Tesla Ferris
Bueller rivalry.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Ferris won that one square and the.
Speaker 1 (03:48):
Current Wars, which, by the way, that movie's coming out.
Have you seen the trailer about.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
The no who plays who?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
You know?
Speaker 1 (03:54):
I can't remember now, but I saw it the other
day and it looks it looks pretty good.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Nicholas Cage plays both roles. O, God, how great.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Would that be?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
It would be pretty great ac DC right.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Just like that's two hours right there, right.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
There's actually going to be a movie, or there was
going to be a movie about what we're about to
talk about today. Did you know that now?
Speaker 2 (04:15):
I kind of wondered though.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
Yeah, it was scheduled for production. Steve Carell was going
to play Cope. Oh and James Gandolfini was going to
play Marsh and James Gandalfini died unexpectedly and the production
just got kiboshed.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
And they also found out that the title The Bone
Wars had already been taken by a adult pornography. Yep,
we're so on the same page.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
We totally saw children.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
No interest in Jurassic Park or any dinosaurs, but we
think the names of porno films is hilarious. That's our
big interest.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
So I thought it was funny.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
You know, we commissioned this piece for the Grabster and
he's a big dinosaur guy, and he was somewhat shamed.
He was like, I just and he said it two
or three times, like, I can't believe I didn't know
about these guys.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yeah, we're like, it's okay, Greb, sir, it's all right.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
But so I feel like he learned something along the
way and he starts out, and I think it's a
good thing for us to talk a little bit about
just before these dudes, how paleontology came about and that
had you know, I think since people just started stumbling
upon bones, even by accident, before it was even a discipline,
(05:29):
people were like, oh man, look at that thing.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
I'm going to pick that up and take it.
Speaker 4 (05:33):
With me, right.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
I think they used to get classified also as mythological
creatures or dead gods or something like that. But the
first documented paleontological expedition in North America was carried out
by none other than Lewis and Clark. Yeah, did you
know that before? Did we mention that in the episode?
Do you think?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
I don't know, but I did know at some point
from somewhere. Maybe it was the the ken Burns piece,
but that, you know, one of the things they did.
I mean, they were logging everything, including bone deposits.
Speaker 3 (06:08):
But they spent like a week around Salt Lick flats
or salt lick gully or salt lick something where there
was a big old salt like that used to attract
dinosaurs and plesisteine mammals from two different periods. Everybody putre
emails away and the bones that would collect there were
(06:30):
really significant, so they spent a week like excavating there.
But that was the first one. But that was even
before the world the word paleontology was coined.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, that was in eighteen twenty two in the French
journal de Physique. And there were a couple of people
that preceded, and in fact, one of whom went on
to be a sort of a mentor to Cope. But
a goy named Edward Hitchcock and another guy named Joseph
is it Lighty or Leady?
Speaker 3 (07:01):
I think Lighty is what I've seen the most.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
Yeah, laid Y, and he's the one that went on
to work with Cope later on. But just put a
pin in this. But in eighteen fifty eight a pretty
important find, basically the only big dinosaur find on the
East Coast, where the fossil ee bones of a herbivore
name Hadrosaurus Folky in New Jersey, and it was a
(07:25):
big deal because it was on the East Coast and
this is where this stuff was going on at time,
and you get a lot of footprints on the East Coast,
but not a lot of finds like this.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, it was an enormous find and Lighty was called
in to help excavate it and put it together because
he was America's first vertebrate paleontologist. He was the first
guy and was really prolific and really good at what
he did, and like you said, would eventually become a
mentor to one of the guys we should probably introduce now,
(07:56):
because Lighty was working in I think first real burst
of energy came in the eighteen fifties, the early eighteen fifties,
and within about fifteen maybe twenty years, there were a
pair of guys who would come along and just completely
change the field of paleontology. It started out very normally,
(08:17):
just another scientific field, very exciting, lots of discoveries to
be made. I mean that's the point of all this, right,
is that, like if you have a brand new scientific field,
everything you come across is worth writing about describing. You
get to name everything. So it was a really exciting,
like dynamic time for the field of paleontology. But a
(08:38):
field of science is the character of it is based
on its earliest practitioners. And Lighty was a very steady,
normal scientist who was very reliable. So he kind of
set paleontology up like that. But then along came a
couple of guys who would form this rivalry and they
would change all of that. I don't think necessarily to
(09:00):
this day, but there was a lot of sniping that
used to go on in the field of paleontology. That
was because of the tone that these guys set.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
Yeah, and both of them would end up basically bankrupt
at the end of each of their lives because of
all their efforts to outdo and undermine one another's work.
So we're talking about two dudes. One is Marsh and
one is Cope.
Speaker 2 (09:30):
Oth Neil. I've never heard that name before.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
I think his parents made it.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Up, maybe O t h n I e Othniel. Charles
Marsh born in October eighteen thirty one in New York
and he was They didn't have a lot of money
in his family. They were farmers. He would have been
a farmer, but he had and this kind of really
changed his life. He had a very rich uncle named
George Peabody, who would go on to really kind of
(09:57):
fund his education in early part of his career later on.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, he just plucked him out of the farm field
basically and said, and I have no idea why he
did this, but he said, you, I like the look
of you and your brain, nephew, and you're going.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
To go for smart would be My guess was that it?
Speaker 3 (10:13):
Okay, Well, I don't know how he demonstrated it, I
guess is what I'm trying to say, Like, how did
his uncle say, yes, you're the one.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Oh, you know, smarts are always evident.
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Okay, Well, he plucked him out, sent him to boring school,
then sent him to Yale, and eventually sent him off
to grad school in Germany. So, Marsh, we're just going
to call him Marsh because his name is just too
ugly and horrible to say out loud. Yeah, he was
basically set. He was fine. He had a benefactor in
his extraordinarily wealthy philanthropist uncle.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
So Cope, on the other hand, similarly had money, but
his was like in his family, he wasn't like poor
with a rich uncle. He had a wealthy family, very
prominent family in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. He was born in July
eighteen forty, and he went to you know, all the
I was gonna say trappings, but I guess all the
benefits of being born into money. He went to very nice,
(11:09):
expensive boarding school, and that wasn't so much up his alley.
So he dropped out when he was sixteen. And because
he had a rich, rich dad, it allowed him a
lot of opportunities that other people wouldn't have, including, you know,
going to college later on, even though he never graduated
(11:29):
high school.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, well there, so it was definitely in part because
of his dad. But also this was a time in
like say the eighteen fifties lax. It was lax, but
also like even if you wanted to go on and
become like a get a PhD, American universities weren't you know,
they didn't offer many PhD programs in sciences, right, So
(11:54):
there was a there was a whole something called gentleman
naturalists who were amateur, self taught scientists who just just
did the work. They knew what they were doing, they
figured it out as they went along, and they actually
developed some of these fields. And so he kind of
subscribed to that school where that old school of gentlemen
(12:15):
naturalists where there was you could you could go figure
it out yourself without needing to go through the university.
But he did that just on the cusp like our parents'
generation was just on the cusp of the last group
who could get away without knowing how to use email.
He was like part of that last generation that could
become a scientist without having to go through formal training
(12:38):
at a university.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Right, Like if you have a tweet suit with a
stiff color and a pencil and a pad, you can
end lots of time on your hands.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Yeah, and that's that's I mean, to Cope's credit, I
think that that really kind of demonstrates like he's like, no,
I'm going to go learn from experience. He did knocking it,
but he did get entree into places like the University
of Pennsylvania or the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia
because of his family's context. But I get the impression
that he worked his way into those places. Once he
(13:09):
got in, he he didn't just loaf. He learned what
he needed to learn.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, I mean, because if there's one thing we're going
to learn about Cope here over the next thirty minutes
or so.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Is he worked hard?
Speaker 3 (13:20):
Yes, he's my pick of the bone wars. He's who
I put my money behind.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
Is he your guy?
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yep?
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Interesting?
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Did we ever say his name Edward Drinker Cope, Yeah,
that's a weird middle name.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
It is.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
He was a drinker, literally, he really was.
Speaker 4 (13:38):
He was.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
Also he was also a Quaker and a pacifist too.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
So at college at University of Pennsylvania, that's where he
met Joseph Leidy. He was one of his professors, so
that just, you know, kind of kickstarted their relationship. During
the Civil War, he went to Europe the American Civil
War because he didn't want to be you know, want
to go to war.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
He didn't want to go fight. He wanted to go
dig up bones.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Yeah, and he was a Quaker pacifist too.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
So he went to Germany and in eighteen sixty three
he met marsh and they really liked each other at first.
They had a lot in common, obviously, And I get
the feeling that in Germany in eighteen sixty three there
were probably not a ton of Americans who were super
interested in dinosaur hunting. And so they locked up became
(14:26):
really good pals. They came back to the US after
the Civil War and friends, and we're both like, all right,
we're going to go do our thing independently, but we're
going to keep in touch. We're going to swap info
early on here. And it was all very friendly at first.
Speaker 3 (14:41):
Right, And I think you can make a pretty good
case that they probably cut their own palms and clasped
hands and became blood brother brothers during the German meeting. Okay, probably,
So that's what we're going with, because they really did
like each other and things were going along just fine.
Two kindred spirits with a common intro paleontology, and they
(15:03):
may have continued on that way, although I sincerely doubt
that that's the case, which means I just undermined my
own statement. But after the Civil War they both went
back to the United States to start careers, their own careers,
and marsh or Cope, I'm sorry. He had connected with
Joseph Lighty, who he had met through the University of
(15:26):
Pennsylvania and the Academy of Natural Sciences. They worked together there,
and so he went off with Lighty to study bones
that were found at hadden Field in New Jersey, where
Lighty found that first skeleton, right, and so being friends
with Marsh, he naturally, Cope naturally extended an invitation, Hey,
come visit me in the field. You got to see
this place. It's amazing. There's fossils everywhere. You're gonna love it.
(15:48):
And so Marsh came out for a visit. And this
was mark one in the turning point of their relationship.
There were two distinct marks, each of them point to
one is the end of their friendship. This was the
end of their friendship starting with Cope.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
That's right. So both of these guys had privilege, like
we've been talking about. For Marsh's part, his uncle, his
rich uncle, donated one hundred and fifty grand to Yale
basically to sort of get March a job. They created
the Peabody Museum of Natural History, and then they were like, well, hey,
(16:25):
we need a professor to chair this new department, and
so why not your nephew, And they said, Bully, that's
a great idea. So it basically costs one hundred and
fifty grand to get Marsh this job is the chair
of Department of Paleontology at this new Peabody Museum at
Yale University.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
Right, And so they said, yes, we want to make
you the first professor of paleontology in America. And Marsh said, yes,
that's a great idea. I like where you're going Yale.
I'm going to spend a lot of time here, I
can tell. So that's that's Marsh setting off on his
little trajectory, basically ensconcing himself in Yale.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
Cope, remember he was basically a high school dropout and
he had to kind of make his own way. He
had trouble at first finding a position until he struck
upon a place called Haverford College and he got a
position as a professor of zoology there, and they said, well,
(17:27):
you're a high school dropout, so we'll just give you
an honorary Masters of Arts degree, being now you're a professor.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
Was working out for both of these guys.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Yeah, although Cope didn't really like have her for that much.
He ends up quitting and it actually kind of it
kind of describes his personality a little bit, that that
incident that he would get a good job having kind
of been carried into that position, and then says, this
(17:59):
job is bs some quitting that he was apparently prone
to kind of a quick temper here or there.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, I mean it's ed does make the point.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
It's kind of hard to piece together a personality from
someone way back then. But by most accounts, Cope was
a bit mercurial, a little more outgoing. Marsh was a
little quieter and kind of known as a bit of
a flake, you know. But considering their backgrounds, it sort
of makes sense where they ended up. Marsh, you know,
(18:29):
they went about their work in very different ways. Marsh
didn't publish his first paper until he was thirty years old.
He was a lifelong bachelor. Cope married when he was
twenty five. And Cope, you know, even the way they
wrote co wrote these very sort of flowery descriptions of things. Well,
Marsh was much more sort of rigid and sort of
(18:50):
dry and scientific.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
Yeah, Like if you read Cope stuff, he's trying to
like set the scene for you. You know, there's one
paper where he was describing terror acts, and like it's
a scientific paper, so all you have to do is
describe the bones and the measurements and extrapolate and that
kind of stuff. But he's like painting the picture of
what it must have been like on a cliff side
by the ocean as a troop of these things were
(19:13):
dangling by their claws. You know. Yeah, it's super cool.
It would definitely transport the reader there, and it was
a little extra dollop of something that you didn't have
to put on. But Cope definitely did put on, which
is surprising that he put anything extra into his work
because he published at an extraordinary pace, so much so
(19:34):
that Marsh in particular was like, this man is obviously fraudulent.
Nobody can publish this much.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, for sure. And we'll touch on that a bit later.
The big difference in their earlier careers was when it
came to religion. Like you said earlier, Cope was a
Quaker and was a religious man.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Marsh was not.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
He was not very into religion, and he was fully
down with evolution and natural selection and Darwin, whereas Cope
kind of had to make it all fit within his
religious beliefs. So it's not like he outright like called
Darwin a fraud or anything like that, but he worked
in like the actions of God into his theories and
(20:17):
sort of made it all work according to his you know,
religious beliefs.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Which is I mean.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Back then a little a little bit different, but even
back then for a scientist, sort of an odd thing.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
Yeah, for sure. But he tried to rectify science and
his religious belief and the way that a lot of
people did that back then was to subscribe to neo Lamarckism,
which is this idea that changes in a population take
place on the individual level. Like an example I saw
was if you're a blacksmith and you use your arm
(20:52):
a bunch to hammer, you're going to get a big
old bulky arm.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Well, when you have kids, you're going to pass that
bulky arm that you developed in your lifetime off to them.
And that's how evolution happens. And it's much more directed
by God than what Darwin was saying, which is you're
just born with a random mutation, and if that mutation
happens to make it more likely for you to survive
to pass along your genes, then that mutation will get
(21:17):
selected by nature, which basically has nothing to do with God.
So there was a real struggle for Cope throughout his
lifetime rectifying the two, especially considering Chuck that the body
of work that he produced really helped prove Darwin's point
more than anything.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Yeah, for sure when it comes to like where things
went wrong, because they were still buddies up until this point.
It seemingly looks like Marsh drew first blood. Yes, we
mentioned that hadden Field dig earlier. So it's eighteen sixty eight.
Cope has left his job at Haversford. He's not very
happy there, so he leaves. He's really kind of feed
(21:57):
on the ground doing the work publishing paper which we'll
see later at an alarming rate, and working with Lighty,
who we talked about, and he invited Marsh because they're buddies,
and he was like, dude, you got to come check
this out. We found a legit dinosaur fossil on the
east coast. Marsh was like, great, I'll go check it out.
(22:18):
He loves what he sees and says, this is wonderful friend,
you're doing such great work here.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Pat on the back.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Then he sneaks back.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Later on by himself, yeah, and bribes the workers there,
Cope's workers and Lighty's workers and says, hey, man, if
you find any more good specimens, send them to this address,
and here's a little.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Dough for your effort.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Can you believe that.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, I mean just straight up sold him out right.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
So Marsh has just outed himself as a very wormy
type of fellow not to be trusted. And the way
that I saw there was a really great American Experience
episode called Dinosaur Wars that really kind of described it.
Like to Cope, he subscribed to that gentleman's skull type
of mentality, which was there's unwritten rules, you know, like
(23:04):
I came and showed you my quarry and you went
behind my back to steal my fossils from my quarry.
Not cool, That was Cope's take. From Marsh's point of view,
he was kind of from the business like American school
of just conquer it all costs, and he owed no
allegiance really to Cope in that sense that he saw
(23:26):
an opportunity and he took it. And that was Marsha's
view of the whole thing. But the Cope that was
like that was not very cool, and I'm going to
remember that, but I'm still going to tentatively remain friends
with you.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
All Right, Well, let's take a break and we'll come
back right after this and we'll we'll talk about what
Marsh always said was the reason they were no longer
friends right after this. All right, so Marsh has really
(24:14):
screwed his friend over. Yeah, behind his back, paid off
dudes to send him stuff. But according to Marsh, he's like,
that's not why we weren't friends anymore. That was not
what really killed our friendship at all. Here's what happened.
Later on that year, Cope published a paper establishing this
(24:34):
new species, elas Mosaurus pleantarious.
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Nice, thank you.
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Marsh goes to the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philly
to check this thing out, because they're still sort of
friends at this point, and Cope showing off his things,
like look at this thing. I put this thing back
together and look at the skeleton. It's amazing, and said,
my friend, it appears you have fallen into the classic
paleontology trap and mounted the head on the butt.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
And this was a humiliating thing for Cope.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
Sure, so much so that he realized, oh god, I
just wrote a paper describing this thing with its head
on the wrong end in the American Philosophical Society's journal,
and ran out and tried to buy as many of
these copies as he could just to cover up his
mistake and the way that the way that Marsh put
(25:32):
it later, because he ran around telling everybody he could
about this gas.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
He was very glib about it.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
Oh, very very like he went. He just wanted to
make sure that everybody knew that Cope had screwed up. Right.
Whereas he characterized the story, he characterized himself in the
stories just having gently pointed this out, He basically said
that Cope's vanity was wounded and or his wounded vanity
received a shock from which it has never recovered, basically
(25:59):
saying like, not only did he get it wrong when
I gently pointed this out, this guy just flipped out
and he still hasn't forgiven me. So that's what happened
to our friendship. Never mind the whole going behind his
back thing at haddn't Field. This is really what happened.
But the thing is that story isn't even correct. It's
just like a sliver of the fuller picture, because the
fuller picture involves Joseph Lighty, who again remember was working
(26:22):
at the Academy of Natural Sciences in Philadelphia where this
skeleton was in the first place.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
That's right, So what apparently really happened is is Marsh
comes in and just says, oh, actually the neck vertebrae
is in the wrong position. That got everyone over there looking,
and Lighty is the one who actually said, oh, no,
you have the head in the wrong place where the
tail is. And to fully paint a picture here. This
(26:48):
wasn't like some huge, big deal like mistakes. It was
very early on in paleontology. Everyone was doing their best.
There was a lot of trial and error going on,
a lot of guesswork, and it wasn't like, oh my gosh,
you know, it's not like someone today drawing the head
of a bear mounted on his butt. They were doing
(27:11):
the best they could and it wasn't like some huge
error right.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
No. And it is true from what I understand that
Coke did run around trying to buy the copies of
the American Philosophical Society Journal that had the incorrect part
in it, and he was humiliated, especially the fact that
Marsh was involved. But it definitely wasn't Marsh running to
the rescue to save paleontology and Coke just being a voice. Overall,
(27:36):
it was definitely an incorrect picture that Marsh painted, But
regardless of how it's painted or what actually happened that
two prong attack on the friendship, both of them perpetrated
by marsh Frankly, if you ask me, that ended their friendship.
Like their their friendliness was basically out the door. There's
some evidence that in the following couple of years when
(27:59):
they wrote to one another, they would kind of jokingly
reference some of the stuff in the past, but that
even that eventually dried up and they genuinely became bitter rivals.
Made all the more pronounced when the West was opened
up by the Transcontinental Railroad, because all of a sudden,
you had said earlier that the fossil fields in the
(28:21):
East were well, the conditions of climate and geology in
the East were not conducive to preserving dinosaur bones. The
exact opposite is true of the Western United States, and
when the West opened up, it was like, come on.
In paleontology, the timing of the two is just astoundingly perfect.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
Yeah, I mean, we're talking about the Dakota's Kansas, just
bones everywhere and not even too hard to find a
lot of times.
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
If you were a paleontologist and you headed west, if
you had some protection, because this is despite all our efforts,
it was still sort of a dangerous area for a
white man from the east to be traveling around the
Native American tribes there, and the Western tribes did not
take kindly to a lot of.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
It, no, because think about it, like, they went from
you know, wagon trains of settlers coming through periodically to
trains daily moving people in and out. So it was
a big deal to the Western tribes who were fighting
back and pushing back against this encroachment and wave that
was coming much more strongly than it had been before
(29:30):
the railroad too.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
So from this point on, the guys took very sort
of different I guess we're forced to take different approaches
to their careers. Cope basically spent the rest of his
life as a working paleontologist, like feet on the ground.
For the most part, he didn't work at a college.
He didn't work at a museum until much much later.
(29:53):
He was not like taking care of or funded by
the government, so he paid for all that. You know,
he came from a wealthy family, so he paid for
most of this stuff himself. Sold his farm, his family
Quaker farm, and got a big fat inheritance and started
going west and started amassing this big collection that was
actually his, which was a really big deal because since
(30:17):
no one was contributing to his financial burdens, he I
guess technically owned this stuff, right.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
He owned a farre and square. I mean, he financed
his own expeditions. He paid for the shipping and transportation
of these things, which is another thing. The railroad helped
it not only open the West, that helped ship enormous
bones back east to the museums. But he was paying
for this, so yeah, that his collection was his own. Marsha,
on the other hand, being ensconced in Yale, he was
(30:45):
able to rely on Yale, Yale families, the government contacts
that Yale had to finance the expeditions that he went on.
So in his mind it was his collection, but technically
it really wasn't because he hadn't financed any of it himself.
It had all been financed by others. The thing about
(31:05):
marsh though, Chuck, is that he was the first one
to make it out west, and because he was the
first one there, he basically considered the entire Western United
States his turf and everyone else was encroaching on it,
which is awfully rich. If you can remember what he
did to Cope back at Haddenfield, and so you know,
back then there wasn't any kind of ownership on any fossils.
(31:28):
But now that he's the first one out west, there
is such a thing, and they all belonged to him
for sure.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
So Cope then, you know, when it comes to academics,
they also were really really different in how they approached things.
We kind of teased earlier about how much Cope wrote
and published, and boy, it's astounding. It seems like he
published throughout his career about fourteen hundred academic papers. In
the eighteen seventies, he was doing about twenty five papers
(31:56):
a year, and in one winter alone of eighteen seventy
nine and eighteen eighty he published seventy six papers, very prolific,
to the point where it was pretty easy for someone
like Marsh to poke holes and kind of say that
he was either copying people, or plagiarizing people, or just
outright fraudulent, and that no one can write this much stuff.
(32:19):
It also presented a problem in that Cope he was
publishing so much that he had a hard time getting
stuff published as a while. After a while, because there
weren't a ton of scientific journals and they can't be like, listen, man,
we can't publish like ten things a month from you
or a quarter because we'll just call this thing the
Cope Journal. And he said, that's a great idea. So
(32:43):
in eighteen seventy seven he bought the American Naturalist Journal
for himself to publish all his own works, which ended
up being a really I don't know about bad choice,
but financially it is what really put the biggest dent
in his future fortunes was sinking a ton of his
own money into this American Naturalist Journal.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Oh was that right? I thought it was the silver mine.
The journals set him up for it.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Oh yeah, the silver mine was a last ditch effort
to try and make a little bit of money. Uh huh,
because he was almost broke by that point.
Speaker 3 (33:16):
So he but he does have this forum now, whether
it's a good business opportunity or not, he has a
forum to publish it. And like you're saying, he wrote
just so many papers. Not only was it just too
many for the journals to keep up with, there were
also a lot of questions from these journals, like, wait
a minute, if you're like a deliberate, thoughtful scientist, you
(33:38):
shouldn't be able to publish this much. And one of
the problems of the Bone Wars, the rivalry between Cope
and Marsh, that really kind of got both of them
to be the first to rush to name a species
or make some new discovery so that the other one couldn't,
is that there was a lot of sloppy work that
came out of it. And when there's a lot of slappy,
(34:00):
sloppy taxonomical work where the same species is getting different
names from different people at the same time, that takes
a lot to entangle. And apparently it took paleontology many
decades to kind of undo some of the sloppy work
that was kind of late at the foundation of the
field in the eighteen seventies.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
Yeah, and especially at Cope's feet, because for his part,
Marsh was very much more methodical, did not publish nearly
as many papers, But along with that comes a lot
more prestige. No, no one's going to talk about Marsh
and say that he's publishing too much, he's doing sloppy work.
So as a result, they were published in some really
(34:43):
prestigious journals over the years, kind of almost exclusively, and
he had, like you said, Yale behind him, so he
would take students a lot of times to make them
pay their own way, because this is all a very
expensive endeavor for the time you know, cope was sort
of created, and how he would fund some of this,
like he would latch onto other Western expeditions that had
(35:05):
nothing to do with paleontology. This was one called the
Wheeler Survey, which was a mapping expedition that he was
able to hook up with. So he would cut corners
and save where he could. But with the power of
Yale University behind him and these students who would pay
their own way, Marsh had a real advantage.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
When it came to staking his claim out West right.
Speaker 3 (35:24):
And also there was one of the first expeditions he
went on was funded by the families of some Yale students,
So it was some you know, Yale students and Marsh
basically playing cowboy out west and the first I guess
the first day once they arrived out West where they
were going to dig, Buffalo Bill Cody shows up basically
(35:47):
kind of like as a guest star, to appear and
just delight and thrill the Yale boys, one of whom
wrote about the whole expedition, and the whole thing got
published in Harper's. So the whole thing kind of demonstrates
that Marsh, as much as he's kind of seen as
like this meek, deliberate scientist, was also really good at
self promotion too.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Oh for sure, he would wear a gun.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
I think he sort of fashioned himself as a Teddy
Roosevelt type or maybe a Buffalo Bill type. And yeah,
he would toot his own horn for sure. For his part, Cope,
after his father passed away, spent less and less time
out west in the actual field, more time in Philadelphia,
and he would hire guys out and in fact, Marsh
(36:31):
would later go on to do a very similar thing
where they would have their diggers out there excavating and
then sending bones back to the East coast where they
could do their dig in and do their studying there.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
Right, And it's out west that the famous bone Wars
really started to take place. But like you were saying,
neither Marsh nor Cope were there, But what was going
on out west, all the dirty deeds and all that
stuff were at the direction and behest of these two.
You want to take another break and then get into
what the bone wars are really all about Yeah, okay, we'll.
Speaker 4 (37:05):
Be right back, all right, Chuck.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
So the eighteen seventies roll around the West has opened
up from the Transcontinental Railroad. It's giving up its fossils.
It's just crazy how well preserved fossils are out there
because of heat and dryness and wind erosion exposes them.
And there was a part of that American Experience documentary
(37:51):
where they showed a picture of like just this landscape
that you could see from the train, and they said
that that some expedition was riding by and figured that
they were riding by just a rock out cropping, and
they realized there was just a field covered in dinosaur bones.
That it wasn't rocks, it was bones. That's how many
(38:13):
bones there were out west. So the West is starting
to yield this stuff. And just one place would become
like a treasure trove, and another place would become a
treasure trove. And each of these places, some prospector would
find a big bone and the first thing they would
think of was, I need to either get in touch
with Cope or Marsh because these guys are going to
(38:33):
want to know about this and they'll probably pay big
bucks for it. And that's really once they stopped mounting
their own expeditions. That's how they got most of their
bones was from amateurs getting in touch with them.
Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah, so this this would open the door for these
guys to really kind of get underhanded. They would hire
guys away from each other. They would pay for information
about the other person's digs and the bones that they
were getting. They would out bid one another, and like
you know, eventually, like I said, both of these guys
would end up pretty much financially ruined in the end.
(39:06):
There were reports of sabotage of theft. There were reports
of dynamiting the other persons like digs in their camps.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Well, one thing I saw listen to this, marsh ordered
that if his men couldn't get bones out of like
a find, like they just couldn't get it out, he said,
smash them, do not leave them, because I don't want
Cope to possibly be able to get them himself.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
Not only that, but the bones that they would like,
smaller finds that they would dig up that they didn't
think were as important, they would smash so the other
person wouldn't have anything to do with them.
Speaker 3 (39:40):
Yeah, so they were smashing the fossils that they sought
for science because of their rivalry. That's the insane degree
that it reached.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yeah, and you know, it's easy now to And I'm
wondering if this, like how much they had to trump
this up for a movie script, because it seems like
some of this is exaggerated. I don't know if they
found actual evidence that they would dynamite each other's camps.
It seems like the most they would do is like,
you know, push dirt back onto the things that they
had dug up and not you know, again their lackeys
(40:13):
out there are doing this stuff. And you know, these guys,
this was all kind of perpetrated by Martian Kope themselves.
They would kind of trump up these stories in the
press and things to kind of make the other one
look bad. So while there were bone wars going on,
I'm not sure it was quite as like exciting as
they're made out to be.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
Well, there weren't like shootouts or anything like that, but
I mean, just the fact that these two paleontologists are
trying to sabotage one another's career is kind of hilarious
in and of itself, you know.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Yeah, I mean and it could have you know, the
fact that these guys were driving each other.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
It's like this is the lens we look at it through.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
Now, it's like, did this hurt the field of paleontology
or help it? And you can kind of look at
it from two angles. In one hand, what if they
would have worked together and pool their resources, maybe they
could have found a lot more and gotten a lot
more things straight that they didn't have to untangle later.
Or maybe because they were so competitive and drove each
other to work harder, maybe they were uncovering things because
(41:14):
of that, because they uncovered a lot of stuff, Like
they were both super prolific together. I think between the
two of them they accounted for one hundred and twenty
six new species of dinosaur and that's just dinosaur.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Yeah, and again this is at a time where you
could like stub your toe and look down and you
just discovered a new species of dinosaur because so little
work had been done in the field. But yeah, they
definitely did drive one another to work harder and faster
and try to outdo one another. And one of the
big benefits that the field saw that you can point
(41:49):
to in retrospect and even at the time was that
winner of eighteen seventy seven that I was talking about.
This is like winter in Wyoming. It's not a very
welcoming climate. And yet both marsh and Cope hired their prospectors,
their bone diggers to continue working through the winter. Rather
(42:10):
than taking a break like you traditionally would you dug
in the summer, wrote papers in the winter. They said, no,
keep going. This is just too The bones that are
coming out of this place are too good, and I
don't want my rival to be the one to take
them all out. So both kept working through the winter,
and out of that one winner, we got Triceratops, we
got a Patosaurus Vegasaurus. All from that one winner of
(42:33):
eighteen seventy seven. And if you can't look back and say, yes,
these guys drove one another to this level of discovery,
I don't know what you can say. I just throw
my hands up in disgust. Otherwise, did that make sense?
Speaker 2 (42:48):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (42:49):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (42:50):
I mean, as a paleontologist, you could literally just say,
you know, the triceratops, I discovered it.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Yeah, and that.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Could be it. That could be your career right there.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Let alone the stegosaurus on top of the triceratops, come on, sure,
and then a Patosaurus that may sound vaguely familiar. But here,
let me drop one on you that you'll say, Oh
you ready, Bronosaurus, same thing apparently.
Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, I didn't even fully get.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
I mean, this gets into the weeds with like serious
paleontology pedantry and nerding out, but yeah, I see Bronosaurus.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Allow me to nerd out for just a second. The
point of the Patosaurus Bronosaurus being the same thing with
different names is one of those things that's frequently laid
at the feet of Marsh is saying this was sloppy
work on Marsh's part, and maybe if he hadn't been
competing with Cope, he would have done better work. That's
probably not the case. But he named the same species
(43:50):
two different things because he thought they were two different species.
And a later paleontologist about twenty thirty years later came
along and said, I think this is the same thing.
Since the recalled the Patosaurus first, that's what we're going
to call this from now on, and so scientifically Bronosaurus
should have gone. I can't believe about to say is
the way of the dinosaur, But somehow it got into
(44:14):
the cultural zeitgeist, and everybody said, no, we like saying
bronosaurus more. I blame the Simpsons or the Flintstones because
of the Bronosaurus burger thing. Who knows if that's the
case or not, but that was supposedly the bronosaurs and
the Patosaurus are the same thing, and really you're supposed
to call him a patosaurus. There you have it, folks
(44:36):
nerding out.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
So in the eighteen eighties, this is after the big
rush of the late seventies, things started to change a bit.
Speaker 2 (44:45):
So Marsha's got a couple.
Speaker 1 (44:46):
Of good jobs. He works at the US Geological Survey
and as the president of the National Academy of Sciences.
But financially they're not doing so great on either side because,
like we said earlier, they'd spend a lot of their
own money trying to outdo one another.
Speaker 3 (45:02):
Right, So marsh is in a way, way better position
than Cope. This is actually at a point when Cope
is kind of against the ropes, but rather than both
of them just kind of going their own way, the
dinosaur wars have kind of ebbed a little bit, and
they can just kind of go off and work as
paleontologist for the rest of their life. Marsh decides to
come after Cope and deal him the death blow the
(45:26):
moment Marsh had a position of power that he could
use against Cope. He abused his position immediately. He was
very high up at the USGS, and he used that
connection to freeze Cope out of any chance of getting
any kind of government funding for any further expeditions. So
Cope was basically penniless, sorry Chuck, because he had invested
(45:49):
in that silver mine that he used the rest of
his money for. Basically the silver mine went bust, so
he lost all of his money. And now his greatest
enemy and rival was in charge of the purse strings
for government expeditions and had basically said you're not getting
a dime Cope. So Cope was left with his collection
and nothing else. That's bad enough, But then Marsh decided
(46:13):
to take it one step further and he introduced some
laws into the USGS. I guess bylaws that said if
a government, if a government program or agency has funded
an expedition, any fossils collected from that expedition belonged to
the government. And he sent the USGS after Cope's collection
(46:34):
he tried to take Cope's collection, the only thing Cope
had left. He didn't have his family anymore. He was
living alone in like a tiny apartment surrounded by his collection.
It was all he had left, and Marsh tried to
take it from him, and actually Marsh failed because Cope
could prove that he had paid for most of it.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
That's right, And it was that collection that kind of
funded the rest of his life. He would sell off
parts of it here and there when he needed to
make rent and stuff like that. He did get a
job in eighteen eighty nine, he was hired as professor
of zoology at the University of Pennsylvania, so that's good.
At least he had a little bit of an income.
And they were dead to each other at this point,
(47:13):
though spent a lifetime battling each other. Cope was just
infuriated at the links Marsh would go. It was all
just very petty at this point, and neither one of
them come out looking great because of a career of
sort of backstabbing each other. And they went to the press.
Speaker 2 (47:32):
In the end. I think it was Cope.
Speaker 1 (47:35):
He had taken these copious notes over his life about
all the grievances he had against Marsh over the years,
and he went to the New York Herald. They published
an article about this, but it ended up just making
both of them look bad. It made Marsh look bad
because the things he did made Cope look kind of
petty and angry about everything. And this is all kind
of played out in public in the press.
Speaker 3 (47:57):
Right and in this first article when Cope went to
the Herald, he accused not just Marsh of like wrongdoing,
but also the USGS of corruption, and that actually got
the interest of Congress, who started investigating and ended up
cutting the USGS's budget by like half. So Marsh ended
(48:19):
up losing his job and his position as had paleontologist
at the USGS. And in a beautiful ironic twist, that
law that he himself had inserted in through the USGS
that anybody whose collection had been financed by the US
government could lose that collection meant that he actually lost
(48:41):
his collection. The government came after his collection and took
a substantial chunk of it for itself because it had
financed so much of his expeditions. So it ended up
turning him and biting him in his own rear, and
he lost a lot of his collection, which really burned.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
So Cope died first.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
He died in eighteen ninety seven at the age of
fiftyifty six, but not before he would issue a challenge
to Marsh, which is, I'm leaving my body in my
brain to science, and I bet you my brain's bigger
than your brain.
Speaker 2 (49:11):
Marsh never took the bait.
Speaker 1 (49:13):
He died in eighteen eighty nine of pneumonia at the
age of sixty eight, and by all accounts, did not
take part in this brain measuring competition, this posthumous competition
in the grave, which I think is kind of funny.
But that brain, I think Cope's brain is still still
(49:34):
under the ownership of the University of Pennsylvania today.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
It still wanders the halls at night, amazing ghostly brain.
That's the surprise ending of this one.
Speaker 1 (49:44):
That's right, And I guess in the end Marsh is
credited with eighty species to cops fifty.
Speaker 3 (49:51):
Six, which is not bad. Plus also Cope has that
fourteen hundred papers under his belt too.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
It's a lot of papers.
Speaker 3 (50:00):
Anything else about the bone wars, Nope, Well that's it, everybody,
there's I think there's a drunk history episode about this.
I never saw it, but it looks pretty good. I
would recommend the American Experience episode on it and just
go read up more on it because it's pretty interesting stuff.
And since I said it a bunch of times, just
now it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 1 (50:23):
All right, I'm gonna call this Civil Air Patrol. This
is from Jackson Cherblatti.
Speaker 3 (50:30):
Can I ask you a question? Yes, there was a
big influx of Civil Air Patrol emails out of nowhere.
Did you notice?
Speaker 2 (50:37):
I did not.
Speaker 3 (50:38):
Yeah, we got like a handful of them just out
of the blue, and I didn't know if something happened
or what. But I guess it's making the round somehow.
Speaker 1 (50:45):
Who knows. Maybe we're on the Civil Air Patrol.
Speaker 2 (50:48):
Watch list web blog. They you did so from Jackson.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
He says, I have been a listener for about seven years,
since I was ten years old. Anyway, I'm a senior
mass sergeant in the Civil Air Patrol and I've been
in it for about two and a half years. I
was really excited you guys finally did a podcast on us,
as not a ton of people even though he exists.
Some say we are the Air Force's best kept secret.
Speaker 2 (51:13):
I don't know about that at fifty one.
Speaker 1 (51:16):
Yeah, might have something on you guys. It is nice
to get some publicity like that. Though, you guys totally
nailed it. Did an awesome job. Like always being a
cadet in the program. I'd like to hear more about
that part. Maybe you could do a short stuff on
it someday. Cadet life is more of a training life
than in actually doing the stuff, like learning how to
(51:36):
lead effectively in all that jazz. We also have a
lot of mini boot camp things that we go to
further our learning. Anyway, you did an outstanding job and
I would appreciate it if you could give a shout
out to my squadron, the Green Mountain Composite Squadron.
Speaker 3 (51:53):
It's not bad, not a bad name. Green Mountain Composite Squadron.
Sounds like a wholesale furniture material.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
I was gonna say it sounds like a sort of
a modern bluegrass band.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
Oh that's a good one too. Yeah, Like there's a
lot of synth invall.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
Sure, okay, synth and mandolin Okay?
Speaker 3 (52:14):
And that was from Jackson. That's right, Jackson. Is he
the front man for this bluegrass band?
Speaker 2 (52:21):
Of course?
Speaker 3 (52:22):
All right, Well, thanks a lot for writing in, Jackson.
Hopefully we'll fulfilled all of your requests and if we
didn't ts for you, If you want to get in
touch with us like Jackson did, you can go on
to stuff youshould Know do dot com and check out
our social links, or you can send us a good
old fashion email, wrap it up, spank it on the bottom,
(52:42):
and send it off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 1 (52:47):
You Know, Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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