Sherlock Holmes: The Man, The Myth

Sherlock Holmes is perhaps the most famous fictional character in the world, and for good reason. More than a hundred years on, Arthur Conan Doyle’s 60 Holmes stories are still in print and he is the most portrayed human literary character in history.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
Chuck and Jerry's here too, and we're here to sniff
you up the case with our brand new episode on
Sherlock Holmes.

Speaker 1 (00:24):
Have you ever read any Sherlock Holmes short stories or
one of the four novels?

Speaker 2 (00:30):
You should have started that off with, Josh, Josh, Yeah,
I have. I've never read the novels, but I've read
quite a bit of the short stories.

Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yeh oh, okay, I didn't know you were Sherlockian.

Speaker 2 (00:45):
I'm not. I would not call myself that because if
you are Sherlockian or in the UK Holmesian, you are
like one of the original fans of fandom. And I
mean I'm not there, Like I don't qualify. No, okay, okay,
more than me. So have you read any not a one? Oh,

(01:05):
you're missing out. They're really interesting and fun.

Speaker 1 (01:07):
Yeah, I mean not only that, I haven't really seen
any of the stuff either.

Speaker 2 (01:14):
There's some really good movies out there. Last night, just
to brush up, I watched The House of Fear. Okay,
just based on the short story of the Five Orange
Pips and it's really good. Basil Rathbone and Nigel Rogers
and just the straight ahead, mid century black and white
Sherlock Holmes mystery that you think of when you think
of a Sherlock Holmes movie, or most people do. So

(01:37):
they're good, They're really the movies are generally good. I've
seen the worst version. People call the worst version Holmes
and wattson you saw that, No, But I watched a
clip and I was like, this is not that bad.
This is exactly what you'd expect from Will Ferrell and
John c Riley, Like, what were you thinking it's gonna
be like high art or something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Oh no, I just heard it was zero five, not
that they were expecting something, you know. Posh.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well the clip I saw was at least one and
a half percent fun. Okay, it has a half of
a star on Rotten Tomatoes.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
All right, well, let's get into it because this is a.

Speaker 2 (02:14):
Lot wait wait, wait, hold on, hunt, let me just
wrap this up. Okay, yes, you should read some of
the home stories. Okay, okay, yeah, let's get into it now.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
All right, Well, we're talking about Sherlock Holmes, the infamous,
the famous, fictional detective. I learned. I was about to
say a lot, but basically everything about this was new
to me. So I learned everything brand new. I was
this day years old when I learned everything. But one
of the things that I did I did not know

(02:45):
for sure is that I always thought he was an
official like Scottland Yard detective. I did not know that
he was an amateur sleuth and that maybe he worked,
you know, alongside Scottland Yard at times, but I just
figure he was part of Scotland Yard.

Speaker 2 (03:02):
No, he is the world's first consulting detective. That's what
Arthur Quinnan Doyle, the author called him. Another term for
that as a private eye.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
So he would work with Scotland Yard sometimes, but most
of the time he was several steps ahead of Scotland
Yard whenever they did come in to arrest somebody.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
Yeah. So, like I mentioned, there were four novels, there
were fifty six short stories over about a four decade
plus period, which is a lot of writing. And apparently,
and this is in twenty twelve, and he's been in
quite a few more adaptations since then, but he's Yeah,
he's the most frequently portrayed human literary character ever in

(03:44):
film and TV.

Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, two hundred and fifty four times.

Speaker 1 (03:47):
Well, no way more than that, now picked.

Speaker 2 (03:49):
It, yes, by seventy five actors.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, more than that now.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
At the time in twenty twelve, the non human who'd
been most adapted was Dracula, and he only had Sherlock
Colmbs beat by like a handful. Oh okay, so there
you go, Sherlock Colmbs. Everybody loves to portray him, and
that's something we'll try to get to the bottom of here,
because what we're talking about is one hundred and nearly

(04:15):
fifty year old, like detective pulp fiction that has chapters
of fans all over the world. Sherlock Colmbs is one
of the most famous characters ever written in the history
of literature, and people are nuts for him still today,
and some people just like don't get it, and there's

(04:35):
something to get, but not everybody can put their finger
on it, and we probably won't either, but we'll try.

Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah. I mean, I think I never read it because
I just don't read mysteries like that.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
Well, one of the things that separates him from the
mysteries is that he uses deductive reasoning like Agatha Christie.
It's like can you guess who it is? Maybe there's
a clue or something in there. More often than not,
there's really nothing in there that can tell you who
who did it? With Sherlock Holmes, it might not be
in there either. But what he uses is deductive reasoning,

(05:06):
where the kind of logic and reasoning he's using, like
anybody has that potential at faculty, he's just particularly gifted
with it. So he's I don't know, he's like a
machine as far as logic goes. But he's also a
deeply flawed person in a lot of ways too. I
think that makes him really interesting.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
Yeah, and actually I need to correct myself. I did
Encyclopedia Brown, as I've mentioned before, and that's where that
train ended for me.

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Well yeah, it's an elementary school. Yeah, but I mean
what a ride it was, right.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
That was pretty great. Watson, this is sidekick. We'll talk
a lot about him as we go, And the first
one was a study in Scarlet in eighteen eighty seven.
And I mean, let's go ahead, and I guess just
talk a little bit about how who Holmes is as
a character. He's he's definitely like portrayed as like a genius.

(06:00):
He sometimes can be very sort of flippant and arrogant.
He's not very emotional. Watson says, you know that he
has no interest in women, and that there's been speculation
that Sherlock Holmes is a gay character. He's I believe.
Watson described him in a Scandal in Bohemia from eighteen

(06:20):
ninety one as the most perfect reasoning and observing machine
that the world has seen. But as a lover, he
would have placed himself in a false position.

Speaker 2 (06:29):
Yeah, which you don't want to do, especially as a
gentleman in Victoria in England, right.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
Yeah, and a bit of enigma, right as far as
just kind of personal life. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:37):
The reason why is because it was not a main
driver of the series. Ye that Conandoah wrote like there
were allusions to his life outside of his mysteries, Like
he's well known to have a brother named Mike Croft.
He was really passionate about boxing, and he played the violin.
He was also very famous for intravenously injecting cocaine in

(07:00):
a seven percent solution, and these things were just kind
of referred to here or there early on. The cocaine
was kind of a driver of his character. He was
very self obsessed. He was very melancholy, like he would
shoot cocaine to like basically get through the tedium of
a day because he was so smart he couldn't possibly

(07:21):
do so otherwise. But then as he developed, he became
less of a well a cocaine addict and more of
a fully fleshed out character who's the point and purpose
was to figure out how to solve these mysteries using
logic and deduction, and that's what he really became more
than anything else.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Yeah, I mean they've if you've seen, if you haven't read,
and you've only seen like movie and TV versions, you've
seen a lot more of a character called Irene Adler.
Irene Adler exists far more in the TV and film side.
I believe she was only in one story, so she's
been much much more portrayed on screen as maybe a

(08:02):
maybe a love interest, maybe a what's the word I'm
looking for, sort of like a foil at times, not
quite like a Moriarty level professor. Moriarty is often the
main foil and sort of evil criminal mastermind. But Adler
definitely exists a lot more in the film and television world.

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah, in the world of Sherlock Holmes fans, they call
her the woman. She's the woman who like.

Speaker 1 (08:29):
He called her that.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Oh did he call her that? Okay? Yeah, So like
she's the one who caught his attention by foiling his
his investigation, Like he figured out what happened, but he
didn't catch the criminal, and that really caught his attention.

Speaker 1 (08:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:42):
I think he'd only been thwarted like four times, and
she was one of them. Right.

Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
He's also been like famously diagnosed retroactively with everything from
bipolar two disorder, depression, Asperger's syndrome, and he's also commonly
given an i NTJ personality hype from the Myers Briggs test,
which is analytical, logical and with a strong intuition that
seems to fit does so, going back out into the

(09:10):
real world, if you're going to take the Doilian view
of all this stuff that it's actually fiction written by
Arthur Conan Doyle. The whole thing started in eighteen eighty six,
I think when the first one that you just mentioned
to study in Scarlet was published in Breton's Christmas Annual.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
I think it was eighty seven eighty seven, correct it.
Because there are Sherlockeans and Homians Homesians.

Speaker 2 (09:35):
Oh yeah, yeah, we should have totally given a CoA
at the beginning of this.

Speaker 1 (09:40):
Yeah, they're going to be minor errors here and there.
Everyone sure.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
So eighteen eighty seven, the first story comes out study
in Scarlett. I think it's actually a novel, and it
was published in this Christmas annual and it didn't take
off like a rocket until he started publishing the shorter
stories in a magazine called The Strand. And this is
at the time that Strand mag Maine was the most
widely circulated monthly magazine in all of Britain. And it

(10:04):
just so happened that Conan Doyle was writing these stories
at a time when Britain had suddenly become a lot
more literate and they were hungry for new fiction. So
he really kind of came in and brought Sherlock Holmes
in it just the right time.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, so people are reading this thing like crazy. I
think they ended up collecting those short stories in well,
a collection called The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes, and like
you said, that was where I mean. I'm sure the
novels are great, but he only did four of them,
and it's really it seems like these short stories is
where he found a place to sell a lot more stuff.

(10:42):
But you know, I guess sell is one way to
say it, or write a lot more stuff, because you know,
there were less than ten thousand words. They were even
short for detective short stories at the time, and I
think they appealed to younger people quite a bit from
what I've.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Read, Yeah, because at the time, the younger generation, we're
the ones who had just been educated through the public
education system that had just been developed, so they were
more likely to be able to read than their parents,
just statistically speaking.

Speaker 1 (11:14):
Yeah, but they didn't want to read some long novel.
They wanted to read a short story. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
And also one of the other things too that Conan
Doyle figured out early on that I think people appreciate
because it's so comfortable and familiar, is essentially the same
formula for basically every single one of the stories.

Speaker 1 (11:30):
Yeah, which I mean it's like Encyclopedia Brown. In any
kind of detective story, you're going to have a client
come in or you know, it evokes fill Noir as well.
A client comes in in this case to the very
famous office to twenty one B Baker Street, and the
client themselves are going to be sort of picked apart

(11:50):
by Homes at the beginning, and he's going to make
a lot of deductions about them and then evaluate the
case and then you know, hit the streets, maybe maybe
in disguise and start doing the investigating of course, solve
the case, capture the bad guy, and then explain it
all the Watson Scooby Doo style at the end. Which

(12:10):
I mean, is this I know Holmes wasn't the first.
Then we'll get into that fictional detective, but is this
how that sort of trophy formula started?

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yes?

Speaker 1 (12:20):
Yeah, So none of the first fictional detectives did things
like that.

Speaker 2 (12:25):
No, not in any kind of formula like that as
far as I know. And there were only maybe a
dozen that came before him, but they were all just
kind of throwing stuff at the fridge to see what stuck.
It was Arthur Conan Doyle who's the one who really
figured it all out and just ran with it.

Speaker 1 (12:40):
That's awesome. They were illustrated by a guy named Sidney Paget,
and as far as the look of Holmes, that was
model on Paget's brother Walter, and you know, it would
just interpret whatever Doyle was writing as far as what
he would draw. So in the book, for instance, you know,
there's two things, even if you don't know anything about

(13:02):
Sherlock Holmes, and in fact, you probably call it the
Sherlock Holmes hat and the Sherlock Holmes pipe. Yeah, that
big curvy, huge bell pipe. And then that deer stalker cap.
That's what it's, you know, it's what it technically is.
But everyone else just calls it the Sherlock Holmes hat.
But in the book Doyle just says it's a close
fitting cloth cap. He doesn't say he wore his deer

(13:24):
stalker cap that was an invention of Sidney Paget.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
Yeah, and that pipe is called a calibash pipe. And
like you said, I mean like draw you right, you
could draw like just a minimalist profile of just those
two things, and around the world people would know exactly
who that was.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
It's like the when Michael Jordan had the Hitler mustache
in that TV commercial. I forgot them and everyone's like,
why do you have a Hitler mustache? Right? I totally
forgot Yeah, I mean that one's you can't have that
mustache anymore and he's no, no, no, I feel like
he should have known that.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
No, you really couldn't from basically the nineteen thirties on
where it was off the table.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, I mean not even It's not like he was
doing it as an homage.

Speaker 2 (14:04):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
But it was definitely like what world is Michael Jordan
living in Ray doesn't know that? Just nobody does that.
It's funny.

Speaker 2 (14:12):
So just one thing real quick for the Sherlockians and
the Homesians. I saw that it is contested that Walter
Sydney's brother was the model. Apparently Sidney claimed he wasn't
everyone says that he was. So maybe Sidney Pagett was
just a pathological liar.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
Maybe. I mean, I'd have to see a picture of
Walter too, you know, to know for sure.

Speaker 2 (14:33):
Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good way to put two
and two together, I think, very homesy and in your
approach elementary. You want to take a break and come back.

Speaker 1 (14:42):
Sure, Yeah, good timing. We'll be a background for this.

(15:05):
By the way, we're back, And I said elementary. Apparently
that wasn't something Doyle wrote that came from one of
the movies, right.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
The movies are the first stage play one of the two.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Yeah, maybe stage play yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:17):
I think the closest he wrote was exactly my dear Watson.
So close.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
I mean, not in Doyle, but elementary so much. That's
way catch here for sure.

Speaker 2 (15:27):
So the the books themselves, or the stories themselves are
meant to be accounts of the cases of Sherlock Holmes
that were written by his sidekick, friend and roommate, John
Hamish Watson. He's a doctor, doctor John. Yeah, that's that
was his sidekick.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
So was that the one who was about spending the
night together there?

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Uh? Yeah, I don't know much about doctor John. I
do know that he was the inspiration for the Muppet band, right.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Oh no, okay, that's a different way. No, I think
there's doctor Hooks in the Medicine show. I was just
doing Doctor John is awesome. I saw him open for
Cindy Lauper once. Oh wow, that was quite a combination,
it really is. No, this is a different doctor John.
This is doctor John Watson's sidekick to Sherlock Holmes, and
he supposedly is the one who's narrating and recounting all

(16:24):
of these things.

Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah, and right away, right off the bat, he is
sort of picked apart and deduced by Holmes. When they
first meet, Watson was an army medic that was wounded
at the Battle of Maywand in Afghanistan, and Holmes picks
this up and Watson is like, oh my god, who
is this guy? Like, I can't believe this dude has

(16:47):
nailed this facet of my life right away.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah. It was the first of many, many, many times
Watson would be astonished by Holmes's deductive reasoning skills.

Speaker 1 (16:57):
Yeah, but he's kind of the heart, right, like a Parenturrently,
Holmes isn't the most likable guy, but Watson really brings
the sort of heart to it.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yes, absolutely, he's warm, he's empathetic, he's just much It's
basically like you and me, right, Like, you're the heart,
You're the approachable guy, you're the folks he one. I'm
the one that's got this general please don't touch me vibe.
It's a bit like that. I'm not putting myself on
the same level of Shirlock Holmes, but in that sense,

(17:27):
I feel like we resemble it too.

Speaker 1 (17:29):
Yeah, but that's just because you don't want people to
touch you please. You know, you can buy it honestly.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
Yeah, Yeah, that's true. Yeah, it's not like a put
on or anything. I really don't want to be touched.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
So we mentioned that there were fictional detectives before. We
don't have to really go through, but there were like
thirteen that preceded him. But Holmes is really the one
that came along, like you said, and use this scientific
reasoning and powers of deduction. And it wasn't just some dumb,
blundering criminal, right that kind of gives himself away, and

(18:04):
we'll get into, you know, sort of why, but it's
because Doyle himself was medically trained and super on the
just in the know about what was going on with
modern policing and forensics and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah, and so because of that he was able to
like really razzle dazzle is audience, Like it's stuff that
is just totally commonplace to us, was cutting edge of
the time, like collecting blood samples, analyzing like dust and
dirt and stuff like that to figure out where it
came from, looking at handwriting, microscopes, finger printing. All these

(18:38):
things were like brand spanking new in some cases where
his audience wouldn't have even heard of or thought about
this stuff. Sherlock Holmes is employing these techniques and in
the one. On the one hand, it is very razzle
dazzle like just as cutting edge as possible at the time.
But on the other hand too, he's he's basically he's

(18:58):
using science. He's using rational science and the scientific method
in applying it to solve any problem. And that was
very much like part of pop culture at the time.
This was prior to World War One, where we showed
like just how horrible science can go, where everybody was
all about science. Science can solve any single problem, and
Sherlock Holmes is the embodiment of that.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, for sure we should tick through a few more
of Holmes's sort of superpowers. As written by Doyle, this
is a pretty fun one that he could. He could
tell what a man did for a living by his fingernails,
by his coat sleeve, by his boots, by his trouser knees,
by the callusis of his forefinger and thumb, by his expression,
by his shirtcuff. He was a safe cracker and a

(19:43):
lock picker. Apparently, could tell the difference between one hundred
and forty different types of tobacco ash and forty two
different bike tire treads.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, he's like, this is Virginia Slim.

Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yeah. That's pretty fun though, like a pretty fun thing
to write, like a someone with almost superhuman. I mean,
people have made the case that he's sort of the
first superhero in a way.

Speaker 2 (20:08):
Yeah, for sure, And but he's again he's not. He's
a human person, like you know what I mean, Like
he is a genius he does have right, Yes, it
is true, and I think that kind of makes Batman
more accessible than say spider Man.

Speaker 1 (20:22):
Well, spider Man was real too, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:24):
But he was bitten by a radio active spider.

Speaker 1 (20:26):
Oh, I see what you mean.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
Sure, Batman came again, came across his powers through vas Yeah,
and enormous as well, for sure. But one of the
things that that Holmes was famous for, too, Chuck, is
he was able to hone in so fully on catching
somebody because he was very selective about the knowledge he

(20:50):
took on. In some cases, he was just ignorant about
stuff that anybody walking around would know about it. I
think there was a time where in one of the
stories where doctor Watson is explaining to him that the
Earth travels around the Sun, and Sherlock Holmes is like,
not only do I not know that, I'm going to
forget it now because I very carefully curate the information

(21:12):
that goes into my mind, because I only want the
stuff in there that's going to help me solve cases.
I would suggest that that actually could maybe come in
handy with shadows and time changes and stuff like that,
but maybe not. Maybe he didn't need that.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
You would have been a good Watson, actually, Sherlock, if
you think about it, and he's like, no, no, no, no no.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
I feel like I really would have annoyed Sherlock Holmes
if I had been a sidekick.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
We both would have. So he's generally trying to do
the right thing. He's trying to catch the bad guy,
he's trying to aid the desperate. For the most part,
he protects England from Corruption's there was a time where,
and Doyle wrote this into the stories where there were
some just sort of notorious failures of the police not

(22:00):
catching Jack the Ripper being one of them, and so
he would like he would compensate for those failures. And
you know, even though he didn't have like maybe the
best personality, he was all about business and all about
getting it done.

Speaker 2 (22:12):
And he was a Victorian gentleman, so he was an
upholder of the social order and social hierarchies. He knew
how to navigate that stuff. But at the same time
he was also a critic of them. Like he saw
very clearly just how arbitrary and capricious the social hierarchies
in Great Britain were and are, and he criticized them

(22:33):
personally to himself. He made no effort or action to
make any changes to them. He just saw them for
what they were, which was fraudulent and harmful.

Speaker 1 (22:42):
Typically, Yeah, for sure, we should probably talk a little
bit more about Doyle. He was from Edinburgh, a town
that we have performed live in, one of the great
towns in Scotland.

Speaker 2 (22:54):
One of the great towns in the world.

Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah, absolutely, I should have broadened that out. It was amazing.

Speaker 2 (22:59):
There's only like two pounds in Scotland.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
Oh, come on, we were got such a good fath there.
He trained to become a doctor, so we had medical training.
And it looks like he worked as a sort of
ship doctor on some like a whaling vessel and a
cargo steamer in West Africa. And he was always a
you know, a good and talented writer. And apparently while
he was you know, not getting his medical practice going

(23:24):
to the degree where he could sustain himself financially. He
wrote this very first story. He still looked for three
pounds to a periodical and the only, well seemingly the
only reason he got his first novel, A Study in
Scarlett published, was because the wife of a publisher at
Wardlocking Company was like, you got to publish this guy's novel.

(23:47):
It's like it's really good.

Speaker 2 (23:48):
Yeah, and they're like, we'll give you twenty five pounds
for it was about think two hundred pounds today. Maybe
I'm not sure I did the conversion, but I can't
read my own handwriting. And they were the ones who
published that Breton's Miss Annuel, so that's where it first
popped up. But after it started to get more and
more popular when they appeared in Strand Magazine, he started
to be able to command a little more money. So

(24:09):
he sold a dozen to Strand Magazine for one thousand pounds,
which today would be about one hundred and ten thousand
pounds or one hundred and fifty thousand US dollars. And
there's a thing that he's fairly well known for. He
wrote the Sherlock Holmes stories, eventually almost against his will,
for money he considered himself a much better writer than

(24:32):
a writer of pulp crime fiction. Yeah, and he wrote
the Sherlock Holmes stories because he essentially needed money all
the time, even though he was making gobs of it.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, I mean it seemed like It's not I don't
think he like hated his legacy, but it definitely seemed
like everything I read he was like, you know, I'm
writing these other books too, and all everyone cares about
are these Sherlock Holmes books, right, I mean this little
In fact, he wrote the original book The Lost World,

(25:05):
which is also a film in nineteen twenty five, and
Michael Crichton directly paid homage with his own novel The
Lost World. Yeah, and it's basically I mean, it's not
the same plot, but it deals with people going to
a place in South America where there are prehistoric you know,
animals living.

Speaker 2 (25:22):
Yes, and Arthur Conan Doyle was the first person who
wrote hang On to Your Butts.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Well, apparently Crichton was inspired to bring back Malcolm. I
think he killed off Malcolm and brought him back to life.
Oh yeah, and that was also and I don't know
if it was an homage, but more of like, well, Hey,
Doyle did it with Home, so I can do it
with Malcolm right exactly.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, Doyle tried to kill off Sherlock Holmes at one point, unsuccessfully,
it turned out, and the reason why he had a
quote he said that I've had such an overdose of
homes that I feel towards him as I do toward
Petit de foi gras, of which I once ate too
much so that the name of it gives me a
sickly feeling to this day. That's how I was just

(26:05):
sick of Sherlock Holmes. He was that it was like
eating too much fois grass, which I can imagine is
not a very comfortable sensation.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
I'll have none of it, thank you. One thing we
talked about Doyle before another podcast, I think when we
did episodes on like spiritualism and seances and things. That
was kind of one of his Aside from writing these books,
he was very well known for being into spiritualism. After
his son died in nineteen eighteen, he would go to
up seances and try to, you know, make contact with

(26:36):
his son, which is super sad to think about. I
know that we definitely talked about him when we mentioned
the photograph that supposedly showed real fairies from Elsie Wright girls,
Elsie Wright and Francis Griffiths, and Doyle famously was like, no,
this is totally real, everybody.

Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, the Cottingham Fairies. Remember we build a whole episode
around the one thing that should have just been a
short stuff.

Speaker 1 (26:59):
Yeah, we've done that before.

Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah. So it was really surprising and shocking to Doyle's
friends his fans, like this is the opposite of what
Sherlock Holmes would do, you know, getting spiritualism. But he
was tenacious, like he was a true believer. And he
was friends with Harry Houdini, and they were an odd
pair because Houdini was a voracious skeptic. He couldn't stand mediums.

(27:22):
He liked to unmask mediums, and Conan Doyle would support
them by going to them, and he Conan Doyle thought
Houdini had supernatural powers, despite Hoodini saying like, no, these
are all tricks. Yeah, like I'm just doing these I'm
not going to tell you how I did it, but
these are tricks. Please believe me. And I would be like, yeah,

(27:42):
I read between the lies or did you just supernatural?

Speaker 1 (27:45):
Did you just wink at me?

Speaker 2 (27:47):
Right? Exactly.

Speaker 1 (27:48):
It's like Constanzo.

Speaker 2 (27:49):
Yeah, but he was just he was just do Yeah,
that's a great one. But he was just it was
just his thing. He could not be persuaded out of
believing in spiritualism.

Speaker 1 (28:01):
There's also been a lot of you know, ideas over
his history about who, like who he was based on.
Was there a real Sherlock Holmes. The name itself comes
from American doctor Oliver Wendell Holmes, because again Doyle was
trained as a doctor, so I guess that was just
a homage on his part. There's a historian named Angela

(28:23):
Buckley that claims there was a Victorian police officer named
Jerome Caminada that inspired him. But Doyle himself says, now,
the inspiration was a guy that taught me in medical school.
He was my third year instructor of clinical surgery. His
name was doctor Joseph Bell, and he had this sort
of party trick that he would do in lectures and

(28:45):
stuff where he would sort of demonstrate, I almost said,
Doyle Holmes like qualities of deducing things from little mundane
details about somebody.

Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, like where someone had been, whether they were a sailor,
if they smoked. Apparently very famously. He once said, madam,
I would ask you to reveal your pipe, and everyone
gasped us this old lady who showed her pipe, and
that was clearly the root of her problem, and he
just deduced it from a lower lip ulcer and a

(29:18):
little bit a little scar on her cheek. He could
do that with everybody. So that part of Holmes is
definitely from Joseph Bell. I mean, like you said, he
said as much. But Angela Buckley has a pretty good
claim that Jerome Kaminada inspired him too. If you look
into Kamanada, he would use disguises. He was doing police
work that now today is just part of police worker.

(29:39):
At the time, he was the only one on the
Manchester Force who was doing this stuff, so it was
probably an amalgamation of a bunch of different people all
combined with Doyle's command of science, cutting edge science at
the time.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Yeah. So, I mean, on that note, we've talked about
how he was using all of these sort of modern
things to inspire the stories. It actually happened the other
way as well, which is super cool, Like there were
real investigators that were doing things that they found that
Holmes did in the novels and I mean, that's super cool.
It wasn't they knew that there was sound science behind it,

(30:16):
so there was I think there was a French criminologist
named Edmund Locard who basically was like, yeah, I do
a lot of this stuff that Sherlock Holmes does in
his books because it's super smart and a good way
to catch somebody.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
Yeah. And there's also this instance of life imitating art
that showed up in the story The Problem of thor Bridge.
And in the story, I guess, the victim takes their
own life by shooting themselves with a gun that's tied
to a rock with a short rope, and they shoot

(30:50):
themselves on a bridge over a waterway, so that as
they fall to the ground, the gun is pulled down
into the water and it looks like it was a
homicide so the family can collect insurance. Well, there's no
less than two people out there who seem to have
been directly inspired by the story in real life did
the same thing. And it turns out that it gets

(31:11):
even more twisted because Arthur Conan Doyle probably got his
idea for the Problem with thor Bridge from a case
that was written about by Austrian criminologist Hans Gross in
eighteen ninety three where this this thing actually happened. So
you have a case of life imitating art imitating life.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah. Well. Engross is another one of those who was
like picking up stuff from the novels to use in
everyday work. Like you mentioned dust, like gathering dust and packets,
and Locard was telling like the police, the policeman on
his staff like, hey, you should read these you guys
should read these books.

Speaker 2 (31:47):
Yeah. Like Arthur conan Doyle's character Sherlotte Colmes was the
first to basically say, we need to not contaminate crime scenes.
They need to be preserved as they are when we
come upon them. This is before cops were even doing that,
like cutting in cops were even doing it, Like he
was just laying down some amazing stuff.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
Should we take another break?

Speaker 2 (32:07):
After me saying something like he was laying down some
amazing stuff, I feel like it's yeah, we need to.

Speaker 1 (32:13):
All right, we'll be right back.

Speaker 2 (32:35):
So we're back, Chuck. And even Conan Doyle was surprised
by how popular his character was and he couldn't quite
figure out why. He just assumed it was a distraction
from everyday life. Other people have said It probably also
has a lot to do with the short story form,
the fact that they pretty like action starts taking place

(32:58):
pretty quickly. But at the same time, a lot of
the stories start out with Watson and Sherlock Holmes hanging
out in their sitting room and there's like a fire
burning or it's just like like Conan Doyle adds just
enough detail here there to really kind of make it engrossing.
But then it takes off, and like we said, it
follows that formula. So there's a comforting familiarity to the

(33:21):
whole thing that a lot of people make point to
is like this is why it's endured for so long.

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Yeah, like a cozy quality, yes.

Speaker 2 (33:29):
Cozy mystery kind of thing, but then it branches out
into the world of Victorian London.

Speaker 1 (33:35):
So, like you said, he was surprised because I'm not
only surprised at like, hey, people are really liking this,
but that just wasn't a thing there. That kind of
fandom wasn't a thing. It was probably the first time
that there were groups of people getting together and like
talking about this stuff and forming like fan groups. Maybe

(33:55):
the first fan fiction. As it turns out, Jay and Barry,
who was a contemporary obviously, the creator of Peter Pan
in eighteen ninety one anonymously wrote My Evening with Sherlock Holmes,
which is sort of the first fanfic perhaps.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
Yeah, and that was kind of a good example of
how he changed fandom or created fandom where readers stopped
just kind of passively consuming stuff and started being like,
there's a there's a parasocial exchange going on here, like
we own you, you belong to us, Give us more.
You know what George R. Or Martin went through when

(34:32):
he hadn't finished that.

Speaker 1 (34:33):
Last Yeah, yeah, that last book.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Like that was essentially Arthur Conan Doyle's fault.

Speaker 1 (34:38):
Yeah. And like you said earlier, when he tried to
kill well, not tried, when he killed them off, there
was a revolt. There were twenty thousand Strand subscribers who
canceled their subscriptions. They would write these, you know, hateful
angry letters of the time. It wouldn't be like the
hateful angry letter you would get today. I think one
of them started with you brute, which is, you know,

(35:01):
that's pretty tough language for back then for sure. And
then so he needed money and so he was like,
all right, I guess I need to write another one
of these things. So he published The Hound of the Baskervilles,
which was sort of a prequel. It wasn't bringing him
back from the dead just yet. It was Holmes before

(35:21):
he died. He finally resurrected him in the Adventure of
the Empty House in nineteen oh three and just said
he faked his death.

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, And everybody was like, fine, we don't care. I'm
glad you brought him back.

Speaker 1 (35:35):
He could just said it was magic and they would
have been like, okay, fine.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
Yeah, but he came back with it just a classic
right off the cup. The Hound of the Baskervilles is
probably the most well known Sherlock Holmes case, and it's
just a really well written book, and it's been adapted
into movie after movie after movie, apparently.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
More than twenty of them.

Speaker 2 (35:54):
I think, oh, really, I'm surprised it's actually not more.
There was one called Derhound von Baskerville, and that was
a favorite of Hitler's, who's now made two appearances in
Sherlock Holmes episode. Did not expect that. No, But part
of this whole thing that we kind of I mentioned
Douleian interpretation earlier. There's this thing that's a part of

(36:16):
being a Sherlock Holmes fan. Again, in North America they're
called Sherlockians. In the UK they're called Holmesians. And if
you're a Sherlock Holmes fan, there's a really good chance
that you treat this whole thing as if these are
real accounts of real life, historical happenings, that are the
cases of a real life detective named Sherlock Holmes, and

(36:38):
that these were written by real life doctor and friend
to Holmes, John Watson, and that Arthur Conan Doyle was
Watson's literary agent, and that they it just goes from there,
And it's really important to remember you don't just completely
take leave of your senses when you become a Sherlock
Holmes fan. This is all tongue in cheek, it's all whimsical,

(37:01):
but the way that they treat it is very serious.
And they use like actual like literary analysis in genealogy
and all this stuff to basically tease out as much
information as they can about the real life homes and
real life Watson. And they call the whole thing the
Grand Game. And it's definitely a cornerstone of being a
Sherlock Holmes fan.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, it's super cool. And I think the sort of
origins of that were in nineteen eleven when a guy
named Ronald Knox wrote a spoof textual analysis and he
would you know, that's where it became. He would say
things like sacred writings, and that's when the official canon
was born. And like you said, that lives on today
with the Grand Game and specifically the biggest group. I mean,

(37:44):
there's plenty of groups, there's no shortage. I'm sure there's
one in your town, unless you know you live in
like the tiniest town imaginable, there's probably a Shirlock Holmes
group there you get together with. But the most famous
one is called the Baker Street Irregulars out of New York.
It is an invitation only group. It was founded in
nineteen thirty four, and it seems like, you know, it's

(38:06):
pretty hard to get in. Isaac Asimov was in FDR,
was in there. I believe. The one in England is
called the Sherlock Holmes Society of London. Yeah, and they
just they get together, they dress up, they have some
dinner and they play the Grand Game, which sounds like
a lot of fun quite honestly, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:25):
I read in an article I could not find it
for life of me where the author the journalist was
invited to one of these meetings, and it just sounded
so fun and so cool. But yeah, that's I think
it's interesting that the American chapter is like the founding
fan chapter Fan Club of Sherlock Holmes, not the British one.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
And they actually are so essentially powerful that they actually
grant like official status to other chapters Elsewhere. I found
one called the Shaka Sherlockians of Hawaii. They were basically
given official status by the Baker Street Irregulars. It's a
great website. If you want to know more in a

(39:06):
lot of detail about Sherlock Holmes, go check out Shaka Sherlockians.
It's pretty fun.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Well, we mentioned adaptations. There have been tons of them.
I said, there have been over twenty film or TV
versions of The Hound of the Baskervilles. Specifically the first one,
and yes, you are correct, that was a stage version
in eighteen ninety nine from William Gillette where the line
elementary my dear fellow first came along. And I mean,

(39:35):
you name it. How many movies have there been? Total?
Do we even know I'm sure seventy.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
Million, I think a lot. Yeah, I'm not. Yes, you
bet your sweet Pippy that there's a Sherlockean out there
who knows exactly how many movies there are.

Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yeah, I mean, I think depending on who asked, taste
differs obviously, but the Private Life of Sherlock Holmes from
nineteen seventy from Billy Wilder is generally regarded as like
one of the best adaptations, even though it was a
box office failure and it had a pretty troubled production
m it just brought a little a wit to it

(40:12):
thanks to Billy Wilder obviously that hadn't been there before,
and I think Wilder definitely hammered home. The subtext at
Holmes perhaps is gay.

Speaker 2 (40:20):
Yeah, he later said that he regretted not coming out
and actually saying it. That was definitely his intent, but
it's not ambiguous in the movie, And just reading about
the movie in and of itself is pretty interesting. But
it's one of the reasons why it's so beloved by
Sherlock fans is the attention to detail, and that's like
true to the cannon is unparalleled, Like no one I

(40:43):
don't think has ever really done it. That well, even
though the actual like plot and everything that's going on
the point is just so wildly outside of the canon.
It's a weird amalgam of it.

Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yeah, and that was Robert Stevens played Homes in that film.
One of the more beloved performances was Jeremy Brett in
the eighty four through ninety four A Granada television series.
I don't really know how people feel about the Guy
Richie stuff. I haven't seen those movies or read much criticism.

(41:17):
You haven't seen the movies, no, I've literally never seen
any Sherlock Holmes sing or read any Sherlock holmsing.

Speaker 2 (41:22):
Wow. I don't know if the first one you should
see is the Guy Ritchie versions. But they're really interesting
interpretations of it. Like they get in fights, like they throw,
they throw fists and stuff, like Sherlock Holmes beats people up.
It's really interesting. But it also is very true to
the canon too, so I think a lot of people

(41:42):
actually like it, like even Sherlockians.

Speaker 1 (41:45):
Right, maybe you know what I have seen something because
I forgot. I have seen both of the Anola Holmes films.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
Okay, there you go.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
In which Anola Holmes is the twenty year younger sister
of Sherlock. I believe she's like fourteenish in the movies
and played by uh, what's your name? Millie Bobby Brown
eleven hit from Stranger Things, and we watch those with
the family and Ruby and Emily and I all quite
enjoyed those movies.

Speaker 2 (42:11):
Okay, so you like those.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
I did like those. But Sherlock is very adjacent in
those films.

Speaker 2 (42:17):
No, for sure. I'm just trying to think of what
the first thing you should see is. I really don't
think it should be the guy RITI once, Maybe Watson,
I don't know, probably not that despite the clip that
I saw, it does seem to not be very well loved.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
Well Cumberbatch. I'll like Cumberbatch. He did a modern one, right.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
Yeah, and actually you mentioned that Billy Wilder kind of
brought like a little bit of humor comedy to it.
That guy carried on by Sherlock on BBC. That was
Benedict Cumberbatch. I don't know. I can't really recommend what
to go into. Hopefully some of our bigger Sherlocky and
fans can recommend where to start to you, because you
really should. You should at least see one thing, if

(42:58):
not read one thing and just see what you think.

Speaker 1 (43:00):
I like Johnny Lee Miller in that Elementary sounds interesting.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Okay. Do you like Lucy Lou two?

Speaker 1 (43:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (43:07):
Sure she And there you go, my friend, You're gonna
love Elementary.

Speaker 1 (43:11):
I think maybe I'll check out one of those. But
I mean, there's somebody in my head that I picture
from a kid. Would that have been the TV show?
The one I mentioned is the most like beloved portrayal?

Speaker 2 (43:23):
Maybe Jeremy Brett. You weren't a kid in nineteen eighty four.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
I wasn't a kid in nineteen eighty four.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
No, you were nearly a grown man at age fourteen.

Speaker 1 (43:33):
It was thirteen. Thank you. That may be the one
I'm thinking in my head, because I just when I
think in my mind of Sherlock Holmes as a TV
portrayal or whatever, this one dude pops into my head,
and I bet you that's who that is.

Speaker 2 (43:45):
Did you watch a lot of Masterpiece Theater as a
thirteen year old?

Speaker 1 (43:49):
A little bit here and there?

Speaker 2 (43:50):
Oh, and maybe that is.

Speaker 1 (43:51):
What it was.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah, supposedly he is the one who did the best
out of all.

Speaker 1 (43:55):
Of them all right.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
Interestingly, though, Johnny Lee Miller was the one who's portrayed
him the most, with one hundred and four one hundred
and fifty four episodes on that show Elementary. That was
a little trivia for you.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
That's modern times set right, Yes, that.

Speaker 2 (44:12):
And Sherlock are both set in modern times. And if
you go back to the actual stories, they're all set
in Victorian England, even though he was writing them well
outside of Victorian England by the time he wrapped them up.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Well, this all brings up the sort of ending here
is that can anyone just make this or do they
have to pay for the rights or is it still
in is it in the public domain? And the answer
is it's been fairly complicated for a while now, I
mean up until recently that is.

Speaker 2 (44:43):
Yeah. So his son's one of their widow's producer and
someone else basically got together when Conan Doyle died in
nineteen thirty and they were like, mine, mine, mine, mine, mine,
and they managed to gather up all the rights to
all of the Sherlock Holmes writing the character every and
consolidated it into Conan Doyle Estate Limited. And if you

(45:04):
had anything that you wanted to do with Sherlock Holmbs,
you had to go through them, and you had to
pay them whatever they wanted, essentially, and they ruled Sherlock
Holmes's intellectual property with an iron fist for almost a century,
and they really got a bad reputation for it. But
despite that, that just goes to show how popular Sherlock
Holmes is. People kept dealing with them to make Sherlock

(45:26):
Holmes movies, books, fan fiction analysis, basically everything amazing.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
There was one pretty famous case where the movie seven
Percent Solution from the seventies from nineteen seventy four from
director Herbert Ross. Apparently they thought it was in the
public domain and it wasn't.

Speaker 2 (45:47):
Man, what a surprise that would have been.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, how do you I don't know. Maybe I guess
things were different back then in seventy four, but how
does this studio not know that when they greenlight it.

Speaker 2 (45:54):
I don't know. That one was interesting though I looked
it up. I was about to ask if you'd seen it,
but I know the answer that apparently Sherlock Combs is cocaine.
You spirals out of control and Watson sends him to
Vienna to be cured by Sigmund Freud.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
Yeah, it's to be pretty weird.

Speaker 2 (46:10):
Yeah, it's pretty interesting sounding though too. But they ended
up making it. I think they just had to pay
retroactively for it.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yeah that's when they've really got you over a barrel.

Speaker 2 (46:19):
But yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
But the.

Speaker 2 (46:23):
Copyright ran out finally unambiguously to all Sherlock Combs stuff,
just this past twenty twenty three, I guess, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:32):
I think initially it ran out in the UK in
two thousand and then it was ninety eight in the US.
But there was a family argument that like, no, he
wrote these over a long period of time, over decades,
so like the whole thing needs to go expire by
the last story he wrote, was their argument.

Speaker 2 (46:53):
Yeah, because he was so developed that like he was
a flat character, and really the character of Sherlock Comes
that everybody portrays is the final ones that we own
the copyright too. And I think a judge finally told
them to go soak their heads, essentially said that what
they their strategy was a form of extortion. Yeah, so
they finally lost it. I don't know what they're doing nowadays. Oh,

(47:13):
I know what they're doing. They're essentially authenticating new stuff
so you can get their blessing and make it like
an official Sherlock Holmes mystery that you wrote.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
But that's why something like Will Ferrell and John c
Riley's Holmes and Watson could come along, right, they could
just do it all of a sudden.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
I think that was I think they would have had
to have paid for it because I think it was
from like twenty eighteen.

Speaker 1 (47:36):
Okay, so even though yeah, I guess the family won
that argument then huh.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
Yeah, I don't think they lost too many cases. I
think it was quite near the end of the copyright,
I gotcha. Yeah, so I'm sure that they had to
pay for the use of that, and I'm sure they
lost money on it.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
Well, I wonder now, I mean, I don't think so
far we've seen any like abomination where they've you know,
like they make Mickey Mouse a serial killer and stuff now,
and yeah, I'm curious to see if someone's going to
do like a Sherlock Holmes thing where he's the batty.

Speaker 2 (48:08):
Yeah, I'm sure some stuff you should know. Listeners went, Wow,
that's a good idea, Chuck, It's.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
A really bad idea because people would be pretty angry.
I would imagine.

Speaker 2 (48:17):
Yeah, you don't want to mess with something like that
he's good.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
Yeah, I mean Will Ferrell's just now recovering.

Speaker 2 (48:24):
I want to give a couple of shouts out. First
of all, Kyle, our writer, Kyle helped us out with
this one, so if we got anything wrong, blame Kyle.
And then also we heard from friend of the show,
Richard Fallwall, who wrote in when we first talked about
doing a Sherlock Holmes episode on some other episode, and
he's like, yes, do and listen to Stephen Fry's Audible

(48:47):
collection of all of the Sherlock Holmes cannon works.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Is it?

Speaker 2 (48:51):
Even if you don't do that, listen to Stephen Fry's
like introductions to each of the collections. And I listened
to one of them, and he's right there, amazing, just
charming interpretations of what's going on in these and the
way the effect that they had in real life. So
you can go out and listen to that on audible.
Apparently it's seventy two hours long.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Oh wow, Well can you imagine We can vouch and
say that due to our selects episodes on Saturday. Sometimes
it intro is the best part for sure.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Oh and one more thing I want to shout out.
I guess you haven't seen this either. You have to
see this, no matter what you think of whatever people
tell you to watch or read. See mister Holmes eventually
with Ian McKellen, just the most art house of the
Sherlock Holmes movies.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
It's so good.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
But it's about him retired as a beekeeper, which is
part of the canon too.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
I love Ian McKellen, so I'll check that.

Speaker 2 (49:46):
Out, Okay, but just put it off to the side.
Don't make that the first one you see.

Speaker 1 (49:50):
Okay, I think that's it. Chuck Great, Sherlock Holmes. I'm
gonna I'm gonna watch something. I promise everybody. I'm gonna
watch something.

Speaker 2 (49:59):
Yeah, right in and Chuck know what he should.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
Watch or read something even better?

Speaker 2 (50:03):
Yeah, same thing?

Speaker 1 (50:04):
All right?

Speaker 2 (50:05):
Okay, Well, since Chuck said right, that means it's time
for a listener mail.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Hey guys, on the Anaconda episode, you tried to work
out how and the heck green Anacon has made it
to Trinidad when the Caribbean island is separated from Venezuela
by mere seven miles of ocean water. Well, guys, I'm
from Trinidad, so maybe I can help. We can easily
see Venezuela from certain parts of our country. And that's
because Trinidad, unlike the other islands of the Caribbean, is
not connected to the ocean floor. It actually rests on

(50:34):
the submerged continental shelf that extends from the coastline of
Venezuela into the Atlantic Ocean. All the other islands in
the Caribbean Archipelago are volcanic, reaching up from the seafloor,
but not us. Ours is a continental island that was
once part of the South American mainland. Essentially, there was
a land bridge between Trinidad and Venezuela as recently as

(50:55):
the Last Ice Age. As such, our flora and fauna
are pretty much identical to those found in Venezuela and
even deeper into South America and hint Anaconda's baby. They
terrified my childhood because they are in our rainforest and
big ones that come into town bordering the forest like
where I lived. Anyway, I stopped the podcast midst stream

(51:16):
to quickly tell Josh in real time your hypothesis was
spot on.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
Thank you. I love emails like that.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
Warmest regards, and that is from Revel.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Thanks Revel. That was a great, great email and we
appreciate it. Thanks for clearing that up for us. If
you want to be like Revel, you can send us
an email too. It's stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

Speaker 1 (51:41):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.