January 10, 2024 • 14 mins
What kind of black magic goes into deciding who makes the NYT Bestseller List? Well you probably don't know the whole story unless you work there.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh and
there's Chuck and well, it's just Josh and Chuck. And
that's cool because we know what we're doing. We're professionals.
We've been doing this for a while, haven't we, Chuck.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Yeah, we're also New York Times best selling authors.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Isn't that nuts?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
That's one of the nicer feathers in our professional caps.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I think, yeah. And I mean I knew that was
a big deal and I'm very proud of it and
have been since it happened. But after researching this, I'm like, Wow,
this is a really really big deal, especially considering that
we were on there for four weeks. That's a big deal.
I'm pretty proud of us for it.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Chuck, Yeah, for sure. And the reason we mentioned that
is because not just a brag, humbly or otherwise, but
because we're talking about the New York Times best Seller List,
which is, you know, basically the industry standard for how
good you're book is doing and how sort of hot
you are as an author in a snapshot of time
(01:05):
or over time. And big thanks to HowStuffWorks dot com
for some of this, and Sophie Vershaw from Esquire magazine,
who wrote a great article about just sort of the
mysterious black magic that goes into compiling the New York
Times list, even though The New York Times will say,
(01:25):
it's just how how many books you're selling?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah, they're very They publish their methodology, so you know
kind of what's going on, but you don't really know
exactly what's going on. And there's a lot of people
in the publishing world that are very suspicious of the
New York Times and their bestseller list. Even though The
New York Times goes to great pains to point out
that the New York Times bestseller list desk, yeah, is
(01:51):
independent of the editorial desk, advertising, business culture, even the
book review desk. It's a separate department. The reason that
they point that out is because they're saying, our bestseller
list is insulated from pressure from anybody who might be like,
this publisher is a huge advertiser with the Times, why
don't you just bump this one up from eleven to
(02:12):
ten so it can be on the best seller list.
They're saying that they are immune to that kind of thing,
and that their list is, like you said, it's a
numbers game and it's not curated or editorialized. That's what
they say about it.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, and we'll get more into that stuff. But nuts
and bolts wise, the list has multiple categories and they
all measure different sales types. There are eleven weekly lists,
seven monthly lists, and they are separated fussly. You have
three categories of books, fiction, nonfiction, and children's books, and
then those are all subdivided as well. Fiction and nonfiction
(02:51):
are broken down into hardcover paperback, and then print and
digital combined, and then nonfiction's broken down into there's another
their subcategory for how to books because I guess they
just want us to live by themselves.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Well, that's our list.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Oh were we a how to?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
We were advice, how to and miscellaneous. I need a
teacher that says that.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And then kids books are divided into middle grade hardcover
which is all one category, picture books, series, and young
adult hardcover. And then you got your monthly list, and
that's where you can find like audiobooks, graphic novels, manga
stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah. Mass market paperbacks, which I was like, what's the
difference between mass market paperbacks and regular paperbacks. Mass Market
paperbacks are printed cheaply and they're distributed like magazines, so
they're kind of like their own separate thing that kind
you find in like a little spinner rack at the airport.
That's a mass market paperback.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
All right, So they say, The New York Times says,
all right, we have data sources. We keep them confidential
because they want to quote circumvent potential pressure on the
booksellers and prevent people from trying to game their way
onto the list. We'll talk a lot about the fact
that still happens, probably after the break. But they keep
their data sources confidential. They say that they don't use
(04:10):
data aggregators and that they're just getting this data from booksellers.
But people in the publishing industry say, I just don't
see how that's possible. They've got to use aggregators, but
they say they don't.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah. They say that every week thousands of book retailers
digital and brick and mortar send them their sales for
hundreds of thousands of books, and that they wait them differently,
like indie bookstores might get slightly more consideration than say,
like a Barnes and Noble. That's like the details of
(04:46):
the formula no one knows about. But they say that
that's where they get their numbers from, that's where they
get their data from. And yeah, like you said, some
people are just like this is not possible, or something
called reader link, there's something called book scam. These are
huge aggregate tools that there's no way the New York
Bestseller List is just completely ignoring those.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, but I mean they say they don't. So it's
kind of one of those things where they won't reveal
all their methodology. I mean they print their methodology, but
like they don't tell you. I saw a liken to,
like we kind of know what the formula for coke is,
but not the exact recipe. Yeah, and that's basically what's
going on, because there are plenty of instances where people
(05:28):
can point to raw sales data and say, well, hey,
the number eight book sold more books than the number
four book, how can that be? And the New York
Times will say sales data is just one factor and
the rest is none. Yah.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah, it's like an impenetrable fortress. And they're really really
good on leaks, Like you don't leave the New York
Times bestseller desk, and if you do, you probably turn
up dead within a week or two in your apartment's.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
In a body bag?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
All right?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Should we take a break?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
All right, we'll take a break and we'll talk about
gaming the system right after this.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So Chuck, we're back. And you mentioned people gaming the system.
It's actually quite possible. It's been done before, and as
we'll see, it's apparently routinely done from everybody, from you know,
insidious actors, bad actors, to entire publishing houses, their entire
(06:54):
publicity department. That people have just figured out how to
how to, if not directly game the New York Times
bestseller list, to get on it, at the very least
tip the odds in their favor as much as they can.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, And one you know, legitimate way you can tip
the odds in your favor is something that we did
and basically everybody does now. It's called pre orders. And
that's why you hear authors hammering home. Pre ordering is
really big deal, like we really love you to pre
order because all of those pre orders get rolled up
into the week one sales. So the goal of any
(07:28):
author is to just is to land on that list,
even if it's just that one week. And pre orders
are actually one reason why a lot of people are
sort of one week and out. We did do pre orders,
so it's not like anything untoward. Everyone does it, but
we were on for four weeks, so I felt like
we had some sustained sales, which made me feel pretty good.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
That's one of the things that I turned up in
this research that made me feel good about what we did.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So yeaheah.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So that's one way to gain sales. Another way to
do it is involved in pre orders. We did giveaways
some people do, like speaking engagements. If you ever go
see an author and you get a book, like the
Price of Admission gets you a book. That's done to
game pre orders too, because if you do you know
(08:17):
x number of speaking engagements, and you know you sell
one hundred books at each one, those count toward that
first week and that can add up significantly and help
get you on that bestseller list too. There's other ways
to do it that are much more insidious and ham fisted.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, Like there are companies and they're not going to
say this, they're not going to advertise this on their website,
but apparently there have been some you know, Washington Post
wrote about some of the stuff, and the New York
Times there's one company called book Highlight that people, you know,
publishing insiders say, here's what you can do with a
company like that is you can, as an author say
(09:00):
here's twenty grand I want you to go out and buy.
You know, however, many copies of books that that can
buy through various you know, independent booksellers, spread it out,
buy them in small, small enough chunks so it looks
like organic sales. It's basically book laundering really for sure.
And then all of a sudden you're rolled up into
(09:23):
a week one, you know, bestseller list debut, which is
what you're really after because just being on the list
means you're going to sell more books.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Right, and authors would hire book Highlight because the author
ends up owning those books and they can either give
them away, they can turn around and sell them if
they want to. But like you said, it's a business.
It's a business investment. It's a shady, unethical business investment
that tricks people into thinking your book is very popular.
(09:52):
But it's something that can be done, and it has
been done before. That's definitely an insidious way to kind
of game the system. And the reason that you said
they would go out and buy small amounts of books
at a number of different booksellers. Is because the New
York Times pays attention to bulk purchases, they factor that in.
(10:18):
So where if you have like a thousand purchase or
a thousand book purchase from like Amazon or something for
your book and that gets reported in your weekly sales,
they take that into consideration. They basically say, you're trying
to game the system. But rather than not include those people,
because again the mission of the New York Times Bestseller
(10:38):
List is to reflect what the average reader out there
in the United States is organically buying on their own,
going to a retailer online or in person and buying
a book, rather than disinclude those people who are gaming
the system by bulk purchases, they just put like a
little dagger, a little cross next to their name. And
(11:00):
the thing is, to that author and almost everybody who
doesn't follow the New York Times Bestseller List methodology, they're
a New York Times bestseller. And so critics are like,
don't even put those people on the list. You're still
legitimizing what they're doing even though you know they're gaming
the system.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah. I also saw though, where the dagger, which is
essentially an asterisk is sort of a kiss of death.
Oh really, Like yeah, Like if you're an author who
got the dagger on the list, then everybody in publishing
knows the deal.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Oh right right, yeah, yeah, if you're an author. But
like if you're I saw that, it's I think so,
Sophie Verschau said, or Vershbau said, it's most often used
by business authors. They don't care about the publishing world.
They care about their larger public facing brand.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, they said, like health and wellness books, self help books,
diet books, and books authored by CEOs. Those are some
of the bigest abusers and dagger getters that are gaming
the system. So if you see some dumb diet book
or some self help book that all of a sudden
is like number two on the list, and you're like,
(12:12):
how in the world is that selling more than whatever
the Harry Potter book is, it's probably because they've gained
the system and look for that dagger. That dagger's probably
there another few people that have been daggered recently, and
this is another way you can do it is Donald
Trump Junior. The RNC bought one hundred thousand dollars worth
of his books and week one and Jared Kushner there
(12:36):
was a pro Trump pack that bought one hundred and
fifty eight thousand dollars worth of his books in week one,
So they got the dagger. Multiple CEOs, Howard Schultz of Starbucks,
he got a dagger. All these daggers around, and like
you said, I think for the ego of some of them,
they don't care.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
No, they don't care. And also they don't care about
the publishing world. They're just stepping in to it to
use the publishing world to boost their larger brand, right.
And so that's the big criticism is people who do
bulk purchasing. It's like the New York Times bestseller lists
shouldn't even include them. Yeah, because not only is it
it's rewarding somebody who's gaming the system, you're also leaving
(13:18):
off people who are actual like authors, that's their job.
So being on the New York Times bestseller list is
a really big deal for them, and being left off
in favor of somebody who gamed the system is that
much more bitter.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah. Absolutely, one thing I do know stuff you should know.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
No dagger, no, no dagger. We did not game the system.
We did not you got anything else.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
No, I mean thank you for everyone who bought books
and helped us accomplish that goal, because it's not like
we did it.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
No, we definitely did not. We did not.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I didn't buy any of them. I got mine for free.
Did you buy any.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I've bought a couple of his gifts, but I don't
think that had much of an impact.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, those two pushed it over the edge. Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
You got anything else?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I have nothing else, sir?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Okay, everybody short soup?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Is that stuff you should know? Is a production of iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, and welcome to the Short Stuff. I'm Josh and
there's Chuck and well, it's just Josh and Chuck. And
that's cool because we know what we're doing. We're professionals.
We've been doing this for a while, haven't we, Chuck.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Yeah, we're also New York Times best selling authors.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Isn't that nuts?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
That's one of the nicer feathers in our professional caps.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
I think, yeah. And I mean I knew that was
a big deal and I'm very proud of it and
have been since it happened. But after researching this, I'm like, Wow,
this is a really really big deal, especially considering that
we were on there for four weeks. That's a big deal.
I'm pretty proud of us for it.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Chuck, Yeah, for sure. And the reason we mentioned that
is because not just a brag, humbly or otherwise, but
because we're talking about the New York Times best Seller List,
which is, you know, basically the industry standard for how
good you're book is doing and how sort of hot
you are as an author in a snapshot of time
(01:05):
or over time. And big thanks to HowStuffWorks dot com
for some of this, and Sophie Vershaw from Esquire magazine,
who wrote a great article about just sort of the
mysterious black magic that goes into compiling the New York
Times list, even though The New York Times will say,
(01:25):
it's just how how many books you're selling?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Yeah, they're very They publish their methodology, so you know
kind of what's going on, but you don't really know
exactly what's going on. And there's a lot of people
in the publishing world that are very suspicious of the
New York Times and their bestseller list. Even though The
New York Times goes to great pains to point out
that the New York Times bestseller list desk, yeah, is
(01:51):
independent of the editorial desk, advertising, business culture, even the
book review desk. It's a separate department. The reason that
they point that out is because they're saying, our bestseller
list is insulated from pressure from anybody who might be like,
this publisher is a huge advertiser with the Times, why
don't you just bump this one up from eleven to
(02:12):
ten so it can be on the best seller list.
They're saying that they are immune to that kind of thing,
and that their list is, like you said, it's a
numbers game and it's not curated or editorialized. That's what
they say about it.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Yeah, and we'll get more into that stuff. But nuts
and bolts wise, the list has multiple categories and they
all measure different sales types. There are eleven weekly lists,
seven monthly lists, and they are separated fussly. You have
three categories of books, fiction, nonfiction, and children's books, and
then those are all subdivided as well. Fiction and nonfiction
(02:51):
are broken down into hardcover paperback, and then print and
digital combined, and then nonfiction's broken down into there's another
their subcategory for how to books because I guess they
just want us to live by themselves.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Well, that's our list.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
Oh were we a how to?
Speaker 1 (03:07):
We were advice, how to and miscellaneous. I need a
teacher that says that.
Speaker 2 (03:13):
And then kids books are divided into middle grade hardcover
which is all one category, picture books, series, and young
adult hardcover. And then you got your monthly list, and
that's where you can find like audiobooks, graphic novels, manga
stuff like that.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Yeah. Mass market paperbacks, which I was like, what's the
difference between mass market paperbacks and regular paperbacks. Mass Market
paperbacks are printed cheaply and they're distributed like magazines, so
they're kind of like their own separate thing that kind
you find in like a little spinner rack at the airport.
That's a mass market paperback.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
All right, So they say, The New York Times says,
all right, we have data sources. We keep them confidential
because they want to quote circumvent potential pressure on the
booksellers and prevent people from trying to game their way
onto the list. We'll talk a lot about the fact
that still happens, probably after the break. But they keep
their data sources confidential. They say that they don't use
(04:10):
data aggregators and that they're just getting this data from booksellers.
But people in the publishing industry say, I just don't
see how that's possible. They've got to use aggregators, but
they say they don't.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
Yeah. They say that every week thousands of book retailers
digital and brick and mortar send them their sales for
hundreds of thousands of books, and that they wait them differently,
like indie bookstores might get slightly more consideration than say,
like a Barnes and Noble. That's like the details of
(04:46):
the formula no one knows about. But they say that
that's where they get their numbers from, that's where they
get their data from. And yeah, like you said, some
people are just like this is not possible, or something
called reader link, there's something called book scam. These are
huge aggregate tools that there's no way the New York
Bestseller List is just completely ignoring those.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Yeah, but I mean they say they don't. So it's
kind of one of those things where they won't reveal
all their methodology. I mean they print their methodology, but
like they don't tell you. I saw a liken to,
like we kind of know what the formula for coke is,
but not the exact recipe. Yeah, and that's basically what's
going on, because there are plenty of instances where people
(05:28):
can point to raw sales data and say, well, hey,
the number eight book sold more books than the number
four book, how can that be? And the New York
Times will say sales data is just one factor and
the rest is none. Yah.
Speaker 1 (05:43):
Yeah, it's like an impenetrable fortress. And they're really really
good on leaks, Like you don't leave the New York
Times bestseller desk, and if you do, you probably turn
up dead within a week or two in your apartment's.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
In a body bag?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
All right?
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Should we take a break?
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (06:01):
All right, we'll take a break and we'll talk about
gaming the system right after this.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
So Chuck, we're back. And you mentioned people gaming the system.
It's actually quite possible. It's been done before, and as
we'll see, it's apparently routinely done from everybody, from you know,
insidious actors, bad actors, to entire publishing houses, their entire
(06:54):
publicity department. That people have just figured out how to
how to, if not directly game the New York Times
bestseller list, to get on it, at the very least
tip the odds in their favor as much as they can.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Yeah, And one you know, legitimate way you can tip
the odds in your favor is something that we did
and basically everybody does now. It's called pre orders. And
that's why you hear authors hammering home. Pre ordering is
really big deal, like we really love you to pre
order because all of those pre orders get rolled up
into the week one sales. So the goal of any
(07:28):
author is to just is to land on that list,
even if it's just that one week. And pre orders
are actually one reason why a lot of people are
sort of one week and out. We did do pre orders,
so it's not like anything untoward. Everyone does it, but
we were on for four weeks, so I felt like
we had some sustained sales, which made me feel pretty good.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
That's one of the things that I turned up in
this research that made me feel good about what we did.
Speaker 2 (07:54):
So yeaheah.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
So that's one way to gain sales. Another way to
do it is involved in pre orders. We did giveaways
some people do, like speaking engagements. If you ever go
see an author and you get a book, like the
Price of Admission gets you a book. That's done to
game pre orders too, because if you do you know
(08:17):
x number of speaking engagements, and you know you sell
one hundred books at each one, those count toward that
first week and that can add up significantly and help
get you on that bestseller list too. There's other ways
to do it that are much more insidious and ham fisted.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Yeah, Like there are companies and they're not going to
say this, they're not going to advertise this on their website,
but apparently there have been some you know, Washington Post
wrote about some of the stuff, and the New York
Times there's one company called book Highlight that people, you know,
publishing insiders say, here's what you can do with a
company like that is you can, as an author say
(09:00):
here's twenty grand I want you to go out and buy.
You know, however, many copies of books that that can
buy through various you know, independent booksellers, spread it out,
buy them in small, small enough chunks so it looks
like organic sales. It's basically book laundering really for sure.
And then all of a sudden you're rolled up into
(09:23):
a week one, you know, bestseller list debut, which is
what you're really after because just being on the list
means you're going to sell more books.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Right, and authors would hire book Highlight because the author
ends up owning those books and they can either give
them away, they can turn around and sell them if
they want to. But like you said, it's a business.
It's a business investment. It's a shady, unethical business investment
that tricks people into thinking your book is very popular.
(09:52):
But it's something that can be done, and it has
been done before. That's definitely an insidious way to kind
of game the system. And the reason that you said
they would go out and buy small amounts of books
at a number of different booksellers. Is because the New
York Times pays attention to bulk purchases, they factor that in.
(10:18):
So where if you have like a thousand purchase or
a thousand book purchase from like Amazon or something for
your book and that gets reported in your weekly sales,
they take that into consideration. They basically say, you're trying
to game the system. But rather than not include those people,
because again the mission of the New York Times Bestseller
(10:38):
List is to reflect what the average reader out there
in the United States is organically buying on their own,
going to a retailer online or in person and buying
a book, rather than disinclude those people who are gaming
the system by bulk purchases, they just put like a
little dagger, a little cross next to their name. And
(11:00):
the thing is, to that author and almost everybody who
doesn't follow the New York Times Bestseller List methodology, they're
a New York Times bestseller. And so critics are like,
don't even put those people on the list. You're still
legitimizing what they're doing even though you know they're gaming
the system.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
Yeah. I also saw though, where the dagger, which is
essentially an asterisk is sort of a kiss of death.
Oh really, Like yeah, Like if you're an author who
got the dagger on the list, then everybody in publishing
knows the deal.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
Oh right right, yeah, yeah, if you're an author. But
like if you're I saw that, it's I think so,
Sophie Verschau said, or Vershbau said, it's most often used
by business authors. They don't care about the publishing world.
They care about their larger public facing brand.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Yeah, they said, like health and wellness books, self help books,
diet books, and books authored by CEOs. Those are some
of the bigest abusers and dagger getters that are gaming
the system. So if you see some dumb diet book
or some self help book that all of a sudden
is like number two on the list, and you're like,
(12:12):
how in the world is that selling more than whatever
the Harry Potter book is, it's probably because they've gained
the system and look for that dagger. That dagger's probably
there another few people that have been daggered recently, and
this is another way you can do it is Donald
Trump Junior. The RNC bought one hundred thousand dollars worth
of his books and week one and Jared Kushner there
(12:36):
was a pro Trump pack that bought one hundred and
fifty eight thousand dollars worth of his books in week one,
So they got the dagger. Multiple CEOs, Howard Schultz of Starbucks,
he got a dagger. All these daggers around, and like
you said, I think for the ego of some of them,
they don't care.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
No, they don't care. And also they don't care about
the publishing world. They're just stepping in to it to
use the publishing world to boost their larger brand, right.
And so that's the big criticism is people who do
bulk purchasing. It's like the New York Times bestseller lists
shouldn't even include them. Yeah, because not only is it
it's rewarding somebody who's gaming the system, you're also leaving
(13:18):
off people who are actual like authors, that's their job.
So being on the New York Times bestseller list is
a really big deal for them, and being left off
in favor of somebody who gamed the system is that
much more bitter.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Yeah. Absolutely, one thing I do know stuff you should know.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
No dagger, no, no dagger. We did not game the system.
We did not you got anything else.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
No, I mean thank you for everyone who bought books
and helped us accomplish that goal, because it's not like
we did it.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
No, we definitely did not. We did not.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
I didn't buy any of them. I got mine for free.
Did you buy any.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
I've bought a couple of his gifts, but I don't
think that had much of an impact.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Yeah, those two pushed it over the edge. Exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
You got anything else?
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I have nothing else, sir?
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Okay, everybody short soup?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
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Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!