May 15, 2025 • 43 mins
When a man named Cliff packaged book summaries in yellow and black booklets he changed the way kids learned. But was he just creating a cheat code?
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to stuff you should know a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is the brief
overview of Cliff Notes.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
We're not going to do the Exhausted Encyclopedia documentary length
Cliff's Notes episode.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Nope, we are doing the brief overview of Cliff's Notes.
I said it wrong the first time. It's never been
cliff notes. It's Cliff's notes.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, I mean the first thing we should probably say,
because Jerry and the pre show banter even got it wrong.
Even though I said, Jerry, we're doing an episode on
Cliff's notes. She said, I used to get cliff notes.
It's not cliff notes. I used to say cliff notes
too in high school. But it is Cliff's notes, as
in the person's nameless Cliff. As we'll soon found find out.
(00:59):
It used to an apostrophe, then it just became cliffs
two words notes without an apostrophe. Then it became cliffs
notes all one word, but with that end capitalized.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
So stylish.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
But it has never been cliff notes.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
No, but everyone basically in the world calls it cliff.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Notes, right, and we should tell everyone what this is.
If you don't know, I do know that they went
around the world a little bit, but it feels like
a very American thing. It is a study aid. It's
basically sort of I was about to say a cliffs
Notes version of the book, because it's so in the
lexicon now. But it's like if you went to read
(01:38):
a book in high school in the eighties, like The
Scarlet Letter, and you're like, oh God, do I really
have to read the Scarlet Letter? You would go to
a store and you would buy this yellow and black,
very thin pamphlet. I don't remember how much they were then,
they're only about eight ninety nine now. Yeah, And it
would contextualize the work. It would summarize the work, give
(01:59):
the character descriptions, basically everything you needed to know the
night before to pass the test or write the paper.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, and like you said, it's entered the lexicon. Most
people can recognize it just that from that yellow and
black cover it looks like a minute Work album cover. Yeah,
or Striper Striper, Yes, very nice. Maybe that's where Striper
got it maybe. And then yeah, most people in America
know what we're talking about. I do wonder how well
(02:26):
known it is around the world, though.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I mean, I think it ended up going to thirty
nine countries. But it just feels like a very lazy
American thing, especially for gen xers, to be like, I'll
just get that and that's fine.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, because it's been long, basically from the outset, criticized
for being this thing that students read and use instead
of actually reading the material, the book that they're supposed
to read. That actually ran a foul. I guess of
what the guy who invented these things intent was. He
(03:00):
always said, no, this is not what that's for. You're
supposed to read the regular book. You're supposed to read
the Scarlet Letter, Chuck, and whether you like it or
not doesn't matter. And then you get the cliffs notes
and you understand it that much more fully. That was
the point.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
That's right. And of course we're talking about Keith Hilla Gas.
Oh I'm kidding. Clifton Heath kill A Gas. His name
was cliff a gentleman was a true corn Huskers. We'll see.
He was born in nineteen eighteen out in the rural
sticks of Nebraska. His father was a mail carrier and
he was a very smart kid, and I would assume
(03:38):
a smart adult because he studied physics and math at
Midland Lutheran College and then was going to grad school
for physics and geology at the University of Nebraska, Go
corn Huskers, Okay, but dropped out in nineteen thirty nine
to marry a classmate named Katherine Gallbraith, at which time
he got a job at Long's College Books as a clerk,
(04:01):
and that company would later become the Nebraska Book Company.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, so, long story short, Cliff Hill of Gas was
a very smart guy. I saw that he was said
to read five books a week basically his whole life.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Or did he just read five quick summaries?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I don't know. I just don't know because he's dead
now and we can't ask him.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
That's right. But he worked at the NBC Nebraska Book
Company up until World War Two when he went to
the Army. He was a meteorologist for the Army Air Corps.
So again, pretty smart dude ended up a captain and
his wife, Catherine, worked as a clerk for the Manhattan Project,
so she was sharp as attack as well.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah. Also, I want to give big ups. Are we
still saying big ups? Heck.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, man, we're old people. We can say whatever we want.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I want to give big ups to Olivia who helped
us out with this, because there is not a lot
of information on cliff Notes out there. Yeah, it's like
it's just not out there. You can get like the
like appropriately enough to brief overview of cliff Notes in
its history, but to really dig in and get the details,
you got to get out there. So thanks to her
(05:09):
for that.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
She did it. I think she broke into the estate
of the Hillo Gas estate and stole a diary. She did,
I think so.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah. And then also I want to give big ups
to Mental Flows too because they did some really good
reporting on it, to some good digging.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah for sure. All right. So back to Cliff Hillogas
he was in the army. Then after the war he
went back to his old job at the Nebraska Book Company.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
And we knew you'd be crawling back.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, And he helped transform them into a wholesale textbook distributor,
and he ended up sort of traveling all over the
country buying and selling used textbooks. When a little trip
to Toronto, Canada ended up being quite a good thing
for the course of his life, right.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, depending on who you're talking about. It wasn't that
good of a thing for named Jack Cole, the guy
who we had dinner with in Toronto, who was a
bookstore owner. And Jack Cole was like, hey, man, I'm
gonna let you in on this business opportunity. I have
these condensed pamphlets that basically are analysis of Shakespeare's place.
(06:16):
I publish sixteen of them, and I think the quote
from Cliff Hillogas was Jack Cole said yes, I know, yeah,
he said, I want you to be the American distributor
of these pamphlets, which I call Cole's Notes. And Clifton
Hilligas said, all right, I'll give it a shot, and
(06:37):
started selling these things, publishing them and selling them in America.
And what happened from Cole's Notes.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Chuck, Well, the first thing we should say is he
took a great risk. And I'm not like, you know,
weighing in one way or the other of the ethics
of any of this. But Hillogas did take upon great
financial risks. Huh. He got a loan for four thousand
dollars to make this happen close to fifty grand today,
and printed up thirty three thousand copies of these Cole's
(07:04):
Notes himself, and he and his wife Catherine and their
three young kids, like packed and shipped these things in
their house, out of their home for a little while,
and we're selling pretty good. And then what happened.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Josh, Well, yeah, so they were paying royalties to Jet Cole.
That was the setup, and within the first year, I
guess Hilla Gas was like nuts to that, I'm just
going to rename these things cliff Notes Cliffs Notes. So
they went from Cole's Notes to cliffs Notes. I think
the Cole was heard to say and Cliff was like,
(07:43):
I can't hear you. I'm done in Nebraska. So I
just see people gloss over this all the time like
it's I just don't understand why it's not at all
controversial because he clearly just took he just lifted the
intellectual property of Jet Cole and took it as his own.
To be fair, he re wrote and phased out the
(08:04):
Cole's Note stuff, but the whole concept and even basically
the name was the same.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, I would argue that maybe the name is intellectual property,
but I think in a court of law a judge
would say, like you can't claim like doing a condensed
version of a book as like an original idea that
no one else can do, because there were summaries before this.
They didn't invent the idea of a literary summary, you
(08:31):
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, but if law and Order has taught me anything,
it's that you can't predict what a judge is going
to rule.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
No, that's true, but and I do. I'm not like
going to bat for Cliff. I'm just saying that I
don't think that's one of those ideas you can say,
like I hold the idea for condensing a long novel
into a shorter version.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
No, I understand, And I'm not trying to like gun
him down. I just hadn't gotten my gotcha today, so
that was right.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I do feel bad for Cole though, if it helps.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I do too, and nowhere what his his his reaction
was or what he did. I made up his quote
of that was right. But yeah, everybody just walks right
past that stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
And I refuse to well people.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I feel like everyone is called out online for doing
something like this, but old old Cliff gets a pass,
I guess because everyone got through school because of him.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, that's the thing. So, yeah, this is not to
paint him as a bad guy. If you want to
know about him. He treasured letters that he got from
students thanking him for helping them get through school, which
you and I can attest. Getting a letter and email
like that is really great. So I guess that makes
us really great too. If I'm saying that that makes
(09:43):
him a good guy, that's wonderful. That really worked out.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, he sold a lot of these pretty quickly, though.
I do like how Olivia, but he gradually phased out
the original material, right, It seemed like that happened within
that first year. Yeah, but he was I also couldn't
find when he stopped paying the royalties. It was that
during the first year or two.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I'm guessing when it became cliff notes. He yeah, stopped
paying royalty probably right.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
But nevertheless, between the start of when he started doing
that in August of nineteen fifty eight and just yet
six months six months later, at the end of that year,
he had sold fifty eight thousand copies of these book
summaries and pamphlets, and by nineteen sixty four, but six
years later, he was doing it. He was doing all
this on the side from the Nebraska Book Company. He
(10:30):
was able to quit that job by sixty four, and
just the sixties were a big decade period. He quit
that job in sixty four. He changed the name in
the sixties from Cliff's Notes without the apostrophe to cliffs Notes, Big,
big deal. And then he got divorced in nineteen sixty
six and got remarried.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah. Later on he got remarried to a woman named Mary. Yeah,
and I guess he adopted her two kids. Another thing
that shows he's a stand up guy. Really, the only
blemish on his entire lifetime is how he treated Jack Cole.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
That's true. But did those kids biological father get royalties
on those children?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Named them Cliff's kids. They were originally Jack Cole's because
he stole his wife Mary.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Oh man uh, And everyone just glosses right over there.
Should we take a break? Sure, all right, we'll take
an early break here because this one's probably a little
bit shorter, and we'll talk about the early days of
that company right after this.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
We los so much stuff from Josh and shuck stuff futi.
So we should say, despite legendarily reading five books a week,
Hilly guests didn't write any of the cliffs notes. He
was more like the business guy. He Yeah, he had
(11:59):
the ide you would put in scare quotes, and he
was running the whole operation. He had the vision for it, right,
So he hired other people and initially hired literature teachers
like hardcore, like hardcore, like they have crew cuts and
wear like army boots and stuff like that kind of
lit teacher. But he realized something very quickly that I'm
(12:21):
sure developed. A hardcore lit teacher who's been teaching the
same books, been teaching a Scarlet Letter for I think
we should not mention a single other book besides a
Scarlet Letter in this episode. What do you think?
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Agreed?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
All right, let's give it a shot. These hardcore lit
teachers who have been teaching a Scarlet Letter or the
Scarlet Letter, sorry for twenty years. Technically I just named
another book, Chuck for twenty years. These people know too much,
They understand the book too well, they know all the
details that they just get mired down when they're writing
a synopsis or something. It's just too intense for the audience,
(12:57):
which is high school and call it reads usually undergrad readers.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, he was like, well, pump your brakes. I'm trying
to sell these to lazy kids, exactly like broad Overview. Please.
He ended up with grad students, mainly saying that they
did the best work, which makes sense too, that's right.
But we mentioned the iconic yellow and black design. That
was something Cliff thought of himself. I remember the Mountain
(13:28):
Cliffs even being on the editions I had when I was,
you know, a student in the eighties. I don't think
they have that anymore, but they have these yellow and
black stripes. They just it looks. I mean, it's a
genius branding move, just to do that simple little thing.
Because Cliff's Notes were so identifiable from from across a
bookstore the night before a test or something, you could
(13:50):
zoom over to that, that spinning rack of yellow and
black pamphlets.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, they would. You'd walk in the bookstore and they'd
call to you, don't bother come by, Yeah, exactly. So
one of the big things. I didn't know this, but
one of the big reasons Cliff Notes became the brand
that it is today, which is to say iconic, is
because they advertised a lot in the sixties and they
very wisely went to where their readership was. They advertised
(14:17):
in seventeen, they advertised in Playboy, they advertised in well,
the Scholastic Journal. I don't know how much of a
return on investment they got on that. But they also
advertise in college newspapers bingo. Yeah, and so like if
you're if you're going to high schoolers and college kids
and saying, hey, we have something that you it's going
(14:39):
to keep you from having to read a scarlet letter,
the scarlet letter, like don't you want that? And they say, yes,
I want that so bad. Like it just it just
rooted that business and simultaneously made it take off like
a rocket.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
That's right. And you would open up the scarlet letter
Cliff notes and it would say the letter is a
the end.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
That's why I keep a scarlet letter.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, probably could is it is literally a A for awesome, No,
not quite. One thing Cliff had in his corner was
all his work for the Nebraska Book Company and being
a traveling salesperson and all these relationships he had with
bookstores because he owned the market for this eighty percent
(15:22):
of the market for guides to literature belonged to Cliff.
Because that was just it. I mean I think I
think for a long time, I mean, competitors would come along,
and we'll talk about that, but I think he had
a number of years, maybe even decades, where everyone was
just like, well, no, there's already cliff Notes, Like why
(15:43):
even bother m.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
He owns it, right, That wasn't enough to keep people
from coming along as competitors. But it does seem like
they really didn't start to emerge until much much later
in history. Yeah, like decades and decades on.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
One of the things that cliss Notes have long been
criticized for, though, is like they write they write the
book on the scarlet letter, and that's that. Like what
you are reading could have been written by a grad
student in nineteen sixty eight, even though you just bought
(16:21):
this thing like last week. That's not the case any longer.
It's changed hands, and as it's changed hands several times,
they've definitely been dusted off and brushed up in all
those idioms. But for a very long time it was
like this is really old fashioned stuff, especially like the
language they use, the points they're making a lot of.
(16:42):
One of the things that cliss Notes was known for
is putting works of literature specifically the Scarlet Letter into
a historical context, and that can change as people understand
history more. But if you don't go update it, it's
the understanding of it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Eighteen sixty eight, Yeah, for sure. You know we mentioned
the sixties. You just mentioned sixty eight for crying out loud. Yeah,
being a kind of a big decade for the business.
It was toward the end of that decade that things
got a little rocky. It was around nineteen sixty nine
that a couple of things happened to sort of dampen
(17:21):
the business, I guess a little bit. And this is
something I didn't know, but apparently starting in nineteen sixty
nine and through the first, you know, bit of the seventies,
the classics people are like, Hey, all these new teachers
came along and're like, hey, we don't need to read
the Scarlett Letter anymore. We're going to read another unnamed
book that's a little more current. And so the classics
kind of fell off a little bit. And apparently a
(17:42):
lot of high schools and colleges started the past fail thing.
So a kid wasn't as incentivized to ace a test,
they were just incentivized to pass a test. So They're like,
I don't even need the cliff notes. I can just
kind of fake my way through and pass this thing.
As a result, they dropped about a million bucks a
year in sales up until like the mid seventies, when
(18:04):
they were like, oh my god, what were we thinking.
We got to put the scarlet letterback on the reading list,
and we have to grade these kids according to their grade.
This past failed thing is not doing anyone any favors.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
It's chaos.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
It's chaos.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah. Not only did they drop a million in sales,
they dropped a million units in the middle.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I thought that was sales.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
No, Like, the number of sales that they made dropped
from two point eight million to one point eight million.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Oh, I was pretty sure that was dollars. But and
I'm sure if you're positive that it's units, I will
move on.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Seventy eight percent positive.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Oh okay, Well that tracks because I was twenty two
percent pots okay.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah. And Cliff Hill of Gas was like, you hippies
right for that huge loss in sales for the mid seventies. Yeah.
So there was another stumble that they made Cliff's cassettes,
which was a good idea if you ask me, totally.
It was cliff Notes, but in a cassette version that
your kids could pop into their Walkman and walk around
(19:02):
listening to you.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Want to be lazier in?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, exactly. You don't even have to walk around. You
can lay there and listen to this stuff with your
eyes closed, in your hands soaking in Paul Mallin.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
If you don't want to read the Scarlet Letter, and
you don't want to read the forty seven page summary,
how about you just pop in that cassette and lay
on your bed and smoke some.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Grass, yeah, and listen to Ed Asner tell you what
the Scarlet Letter means.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Oh boy, was that planned or did you just come
up with that ad?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I just came up with that.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Oh that's so great. This was only about a six
month thing. It did not go over well despite being
a pretty good idea that got me thinking about just
audio books or books on tape and when that was
a thing. Apparently that started in nineteen thirty two. Oh yeah, yeah,
the American Foundation for the Blind opened up a recording studio,
So it was a thing, but I feel like it
(19:52):
didn't really take off until much, much, much later.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Until the Walkman. Did you have a Walkman by the way.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Ah, yeah, of course I did.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Nice. I did too. I associated specifically with my cassette
of Huey Lewis and the News.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Sports one of the great records of all time.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, it is really good.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I don't think I ever had a disc man.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I didn't either.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
I think I went straight from Walkman to cheese. I
guess iPod as far as walking around.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Oh yeah, I never had an iPod. I went from
Walkman to iPhone.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I guess I had the first iPod.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
So yeah, I had the first, not the you know,
not Steve Jobs's iPod, but you know, the first, the
first edition. I still have it. It still works.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Oh do you really? Wow, that's really saying something.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah. I put pictures of it on my Instagram not
too long ago actually, because I found it, charged it,
and I just put up the opening screen because you know,
the first Walkman had everything in alphabetical order just on
the screen when he opened it. Yeah, and boy it
was eight, eight or nine bands locked in time from
I guess like two thousand or something whatever that was.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, I didn't have one of those.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I'm sorry. I'm gonna get you a maybe a Nano
no need.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Those things were tiny though. They were like the size
of a thumb of steak.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, or a square of chocolate.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Actually, yeah, there you ca Yeah, we'll keep going right.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah. I mentioned Hillograss was a true corn Husker. He
kept that company in Nebraska. He felt very strongly about
that and donated ten percent of its profits to Nebraska organizations.
Was a big curator of the art, So the Museum
of Nebraska Art was a big one that benefited from
his stealing that idea from coal and they have. If
you've ever looked up, like, hey, what does this guy
(21:47):
look like? Anyway, you might see a bronze statue of him,
and that is from that Museum of Nebraska Art.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, he's standing up in some bushes like a creep
with a book open.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
What else? What happened in nineteen eighty three?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
He this is this? This? I think this also kind
of puts a certain like that it paints a picture
of this guy. That's what I'm trying to say. At
age sixty five on the dot, he retires, Okay, yeah,
like that's just the kind of guy he was. But
he didn't actually retire. He just stepped down from company
president to the head of the board of directors. Yeah,
(22:25):
and he still went into the office every day.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, and he instead of calling him mister hilligas they said,
you can come a cliff.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Right, he would show up in like a smoking jacket
and ascot after he retired.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Exactly, but he'd still called the shots.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Right. But that's just I mean, I can totally because
don't forget he was trained in geology, math physics, like
he had a certain way of looking at things for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah. That a couple of years later, in nineteen eighty five,
that was a Chicago Tribune article. So this is mid eighties.
They had a staff of about twenty five people, and
they had published two hundred and twenty five five guide
books or book guides rather sixty million copies in circulation.
And yes, I nailed it, thirty nine countries in circulation,
(23:10):
and apparently there were some countries that used them to
help teach American English in different.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Countries, sure, especially the English used by Americans. In nineteen sixty.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Eight, that's right. By the end of the eighties they
were taking in about eleven million bucks a year, which
is pretty good. Scratch it, just about twenty eight today
twenty eight million. Yeah, that's even better scratch, And by
the end of the millennium in nineteen ninety nine, at
the age of eighty one, he sold it off. He
(23:40):
was like, all right, I'm eighty one. I want to
live out my remaining years as a super rich guy
and not just a medium rich guy. So he sold
to IDG Books, who was a publisher of the Four
Dummies guides that everyone knows, and he sold for only
fourteen million, which kind of surprises me. Fully retired and
sadly died a couple of years later at eighty three
(24:01):
from complications of stroke.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I've always wondered what that is like guys in particular,
retiring and then dying like very soon after that. It's
kind of a thing. And even if you don't die,
you can, like a lot of people just get like
really sick for a while afterwards. And I don't know
if it's like you've been running on adrenaline last five
years or what the deal is, but it's like when
(24:26):
you finally your body finally resets, like I don't have
to go to work anymore. Something happens to you.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Are you saying this personally to me? So I, yep,
can consider this as I.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Wait my future retiring choke.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
It was bought and sold a few more times, though.
In two thousand and one, John Wiley and Son's bought
the brand. They changed the name this time. This is
when they squashed it together as Cliff's Notes with the
Capitol NY. Then Houghton Mifflin Harcourt bought it in twenty twelve,
and then Course Hero bought it in twenty one.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense to courts heroes a online tutor. Essentially,
they have courses and their heroes for it.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And one final thing before we take the break, is
it is I think the New York Times and the
Early aughts did a report and they found that it's
not just lazy high school kids that are buying these books.
They found out it's lazy adults in book clubs. They
want to participate in the book club, but they maybe
don't have the time to read the Scarlet Letter, so
(25:28):
they'll get the cliff Notes so they can go and
have some wine and talk about the abridged version.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Right, you can tell the ones that read the cliff
Notes of the Scarlet Letter because they're the ones who
thought it was really good.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
That's right, And it's also the yellow and black is
sticking out from their fanny.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Fact, they have a little piece of it in their teeth.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Right, all right, shall we take our second break? Yes,
all right, we'll be back and pick up on where
we are today with Cliff and his notes. We loss
(26:08):
so much stuff from Josh and Shook.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Still fui.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
All right, as promised, we're going to talk about Cliffs
Notes today. You can still buy these pamphlets. Like I said,
I looked up online if you want to buy the
scarlet letter and hold it in your hand. I think
it was eight ninety nine somewhere a little less. But
they're kind of in that ballpark.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Aren't they used? Though they're not newly printed.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I don't know. I mean they saw them on Amazon
that still could be used.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
I guess that was my take that they're used, But
who knows.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Maybe I do know that their main source of income
now is the website that offers most of this stuff
for free, which is weird that they also have a
fee model.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah, so you can subscribe to Cliffs Notes today for
I think nine dollars a month or thirty six bucks
a year, and you get all of the free stuff,
but you can also download it as a PDF, so
if you learned better by like reading on print or
on paper, you would need to do that. But they
(27:21):
also have other stuff too. There's like much more in
depth guides and analysis and stuff like that behind their paywall.
So it's not like you're just a total sucker for
paying for free cliffs Notes, because they have a bunch
of stuff that's not just free.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, and I got, we're not going to go through
this list, but Olivia was kind enough, I think because
she needed to fulfill a word count to list out
what you get in the actual free version of let's say,
the Scarlet Letter. And my take is that you get
a pretty good like summary and chapter by chapter thing
(27:54):
and character analysis and all that stuff. But it's just
even a lesser version than the more or robust paid monthly.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Right, and I mean it's even more. It's like there's
pretty good detail in it. Like for their their analysis
of The Scarlet Letter, they talk about how the Scarlet
Letter fits into dystopian fiction in general, yeah, or how
Big Brother in the Scarlet Letter can be compared to
Hitler stallin yeh, or when hester Prinne develops news speak,
(28:24):
what all that means.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, exactly, an a biography of George Orwell, the writer
of the Scarlet Letter.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
That's right. Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff. I went
in and poked around, and it is a lot of
free stuff. Like you could write a numerous really good
slam dunk papers on the Scarlet Letter just from the
free stuff that they have available. So I'm a little
curious too what their business model is, because it doesn't
really make sense to me unless it's a portal two
(28:55):
course Hero. Now that I think about it, I'll bet
it is. I'll bet they get you with the free
stuff and then they get you into course Hero, and
they turn you upside down and shake you by your
ankles until all the change falls out of your pockets?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Do you want to be a better student for nine
books a month? So we should talk a little bit
more about the elephant in the room, which is that
this is just a way for kids to cheat. I mean,
the other elephant is we haven't discussed our own cliff notes.
Cliff notes use I will volunteer my own. You don't
have to answer, I've never used them. Okay, Well, go
(29:28):
ahead and just make me look bad right before I
say that I leaned on them.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
No worse than that. I never I didn't even bother
to use the cliff notes. I didn't read the material either.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I was just a really, really lame high school student.
In high school, I was not good at all. I
didn't blossom until college.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Okay, I do remember that now. But you were setting
me up to look like a chump.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I No, I didn't saved you, thank you like hester
I did it in the Scarlet Letter.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
That's right. I did use cliff notes, not exclude. I
was always a believer, and this is not right, kids
of I love to read. I was an English major,
for heaven's sake. No, so I love to read, but
I wanted to read what I wanted to read. Emily
still sort of challenges me, not on just reading, but
(30:20):
like Chuck only does what he wants to do, that
kind of thing. That's not the best trade, everybody, you
should not be like Chuck. But I wanted to read
what I wanted to read. I didn't want to read
the Scarlet Letter. So I got the cliffs notes and
you know, probably peruse the Scarlet Letter. The books that
I was like, I totally want to read that I
(30:41):
can't think of another book.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Title, the Scarlet Letter.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yeah, I would read that Scarlet Letter. I wouldn't read
the one they assigned to me. So I did use
cliff notes. I did that was in high school. Did
not use them in college as an English major because
I felt like it was time to get a little
more serious and I chose that major willingly, so I
should probably do the work. And that was only work
in college I really really enjoyed was reading and writing.
So I didn't use him in college. But all that
(31:07):
to say, the elephant in the room is like, is
this just for lazy kids? And you mentioned that Hilligas
was like no, but how would he enforce that or
encourage that?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Rather with a stern note? Yeah, at the beginning of
every copy of cliff Notes, he had a little note.
His signature was next to it too. He said that
a thorough appreciation of literature allows no shortcuts, and students
who use them to avoid reading the actual material or
(31:36):
having to go into class for discussion groups about the
material are denying themselves the very education that they are
presumably giving their most vital years to achieve. And I
feel like he took a bit of an utopian approach
to how he viewed his customers. But surely there was
(31:56):
some out there. I do wonder if there was a
single cliff Notes buyer who read that note and was like,
you know what, I'm going to change my wage. I'm
abusing these things.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
I doubt it, but I'm sure there were students like
I did, at times where a book was a little
over their head and they used the cliff Notes as
intended to help with the book.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
I saw also that some teachers did that. They actually
suggested cliffs Notes for some students, which meant that your
teacher thought you were a dip stick.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Well. Teachers also were on record as using it for
lesson planning, sometimes because they didn't want to read the
scarlet letter either.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
That's really hilarious. That's so missus Kravopple, it totally is.
And then a lot of them actually used cliff Notes
for the opposite reasons. They would know like like, if
you're a high school English teacher, there's a handful of
the scarlet letters that you've assigned during the year, and
you assigned the same scarlet letters over and over again,
(32:59):
year after year, so you probably know the cliffs Notes
on those things. By heart, so you can very easily
pick out when somebody is not only using the cliffs Notes,
but way worse than that, it's actually plagiarizing the cliffs Notes.
That was the low laziest thing you could possibly do.
Prior to chat GPT writing your your paper for you.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yeah, this is coming from two gen xers, and we
wrote the book on how to get away with lazy.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah. I didn't even read the material or the cliffs Notes.
That's pretty lazy.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah. Certain universities took charge. In nineteen ninety seven, Villanova
pulled cliff Notes from their college bookstore. Other bookstores maybe
didn't sell them, but they're the only one that Livy
could find at least that actually pulled them off the shelves.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Yeah. They were famously sent in a hit squad that
ended up trashing the bookstore and tore up all of
the cliffs Notes. And when they left, they threw flash
bang grenades into the bookstore as they take.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Off, and yellow h Hut Cliff did not like this,
and they took out a full page ad. I guess
he was passed away by this point, but the company
didn't like this, and they took an ad in the
Villanova student newspaper called it censorship, and the college just
like they can still mind these things anywhere. This is
sort of a symbolic gesture calm down.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah, we kind of touched on and we didn't say
it like overtly, But there were a lot of teachers
out there who were okay with cliff Notes, and some
who even encouraged their use. That seems to have come
along like a generation after cliffs Notes came out, which
is not coincidental because a lot of those people who
grew up to be English teachers and English professors used
(34:39):
cliff Notes when they went through school themselves, so at
the very least they had a certain fondness of it,
and at best they were like, this is actually super
helpful as a reference material.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, for sure. And if you have a set of
cliffs Notes that you have read recently from later in
the company's story, you're like, hey, man, I didn't see
any note from cliff saying these aren't shortcuts. Ps enjoyed
the shortcut. This didn't have anything in it. I think
the minute he sold that company, they were like, let's
(35:11):
get rid of that note. Yeah, it's a real dragon.
Not only that, like our advertising should actively encourage the
fact that this is a shortcut.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, that's pretty much what they did.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Let's own it.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, and they did own it. I think they kind
of walked it back a little bit, so there's like
a watered down version of his note essentially saying the
same thing. But they definitely did. They said the the
unspoken part out loud. I guess is how they put it.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Yeah, for sure. Is this Here's the big question though,
and I'm glad Livia posed this question, like is it
bad to use cliffs notes and the very idea of
like do kids need to read the Scarlet Letter or
is the only reason they're reading the Scarlet Letter to
just not look like a dipstick when someone brings up
(36:03):
the Scarlet Letter, like do you just need to be
acquainted with this stuff as a cultural touch point in
life or to get a Jeopardy answer correct or I'm sorry,
Jeopardy clue correct.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Man.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
We almost got our membership provoked. And you know this
is me speaking. I think, yeah, like you should read
these books, and a lot of people are on record
saying yeah, I mean, not necessarily just a scarlet letter,
but it's called I believe there's a literature scholar from
the University of Kentucky named Alan Nadell that calls it
(36:38):
the labor of witnessing, Like to actually read the thing
is the thing. It's not reading the Wikipedia, I think
that was. She found a redditor East t X Josh
that said, it's like reading the Wikipedia on Beethoven's ninth
but not listening to it. There's something about experiencing the
thing that is different and valuable.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah. Yeah, and reading all this chuck made me realize
how much I missed out by not reading all those
books in high school. You still can, buddy, right, So
I went on a couple of like I searched books
you should read before you die, and that brought up
humorous lists, and there's some that appear on all the lists.
And I'm still searching for which the Scarlet Letter I'm
(37:22):
going to read?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Right, but single book?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, if you have any recommendations for one to start with,
let me know.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Well, you know it would be fun. As our mutual
friend Joey Siara of the Henry Clay People who are friends,
who wrote that and performed the theme song to our
television show and still a good friend. I'm going to
see he's going to Glengarry with me this weekend.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Very nice.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
He is a Moby Dick aficionado and collects copies and
versions of that, and he said that is the best
book of all time. He said, it's not my favorite book.
He said, it's the best book.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
You mean the Scarlet Letter, the one with the Great
White Way.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Oh, that's right, I got the name wrong. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, all right, yeah, I saw that one and I
was like, I don't know, I read It'd be fun
if we both read that, Okay. I have a feeling
you're going to be like, you're still reading that two
years from now.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
But well, let's put it this way. Joey gave me
a copy probably two years ago, and it sits untouched.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Okay, Shell, all right, do you give me a two
year head start and then you start and we'll finish
at the same time and talk about it.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
I gotta put down this Mike Campbell book of Tom
Petty and the Heartbreakers, and the Rim one before that,
and the mud Honey one before that I'll read is
these rock books. I need to put them all away.
And by the way, those are all called The Scarlet Letter.
My story in Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Right, and also Chuck, I mean, if rock and Roll
rot your brain reading about rock and roll really does?
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Should we mention one more point that teachers make or
I'm sorry that a problem with study guides. Some people
are like, hey, these study guys just give you one
lens look through to view this thing. And what you
need to do is read the book and go to
a class and hear it from a teacher. But some
people say, yeah, but that teacher is just looking at
(39:08):
it through their lens. I disagree. As an English major,
in my classes, the teacher would present perhaps their analysis,
and then say this is what other people think, and
what do you think?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Right? And you have to have read the cliffs Notes
to say you think. What else you want to talk
about any of these parodies or spin offs or competitors?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, I mean we can just mention kind of quickly.
Spark Notes became the biggest competitor in like nineteen ninety nine.
There's one called Schmoop found it in two thousand and
eight that became a pretty good competitor.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
That's pretty good. I went and read some of their stuff.
It's much more loosely written, like what's up with YadA
YadA YadA. Oh really, what's up with that letter?
Speaker 1 (39:51):
A interesting? I do want to mention this one spoof
at least Thug Notes.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Did you watch any of these?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
That's the one on Doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Yeah, I think give me the car letter Man.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
I got it too. We both went.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Down Thug Notes.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
I was talking about the movie.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Oh right, right, right. It's a YouTube series from comedian
Greg Edwards. He plays a character, a PhD named Sparky Sweets,
who summarizes a commentary on one hundred different books. They're
generally about five minutes long, and it's a comedy thing,
you know, it's thug Notes. He does African American vernacular
and breaks down these books in a fun way, in
(40:33):
a very quick way. But he's got three point one
four million subs, and if you watch one of these,
like you did, you will soon learn like it's a joke,
but he's laying down some real truth on some of
these as well.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Oh yeah, like when you finish watching one of these
thug Notes, like you understand what that book was about,
like fully, Like he does a great job with it.
But yeah, there's just this whole stick to it. That's
pretty awesome too.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah. I watched a few of them, but the one
on the Scarlet Letter by George Orwell. At the end
in the analysis, he explains he talks about censorship and
book burning and stalinism and double talk and all that
stuff in a very fun way. And I can only
think that, like, there might be young students that identify
(41:18):
with with Greg Edwards and what he's doing, that it
might provide a little real insight and inspiration, I hope. So,
even though it's.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Just a joke, did you say that? Did you say
the name of his character on thug Notes?
Speaker 1 (41:31):
I did?
Speaker 2 (41:32):
I love it. I guess that's about it.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Huh, that's all I got on cliff Notes.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Okay, I think man. Hats off to us, Hats off
to Olivia, hats off to Mental Floss, Hats off to
Sparky Sweet's PhD. We made it through cliffs Notes.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Hats off to Nathaniel Hawthorne.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Yeah, and hester Print too. Yeah, let's see, since we
took our hat off to hester Print, of course, that
means it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Hey guys, this is about Broadway. My name's Reagan. I've
been a listener for ten years. My husband Paul, and
I love to listen to you guys while we cooked dinner,
and we listen to reruns on long car trips. I'm
writing in Because Broadway the Broadway episode because I am
a theatrical costume designer and I wanted to offer some
more insight about previews that you guys were discussing. Previews
(42:23):
have a cool function where they are actually used by
the production team to keep changing, like Josh said, and
fine tuning a show based on audience feedback, especially on
a brand new show. New lines and music may even
be written and added during the process. Changes can also
include restaging and cutting or adding technical elements like costumes
for props. However, Chuck was right and that toward the
end of previews the show will be frozen by the director,
(42:46):
which means no further changes are allowed to be made,
and it's after that time that critics will be invited
to attend during previews after they're frozen before opening night.
Got it so that totally clears it up. Thanks for
doing such a great job covering Broadway. Really touched me
to hear about the theater world on my favorite podcast,
because I listen to you guys almost daily in the
(43:06):
costume shop. And that is from Reagan McKay, interim costume
shop manager at the Roundhouse Theater.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Wow, that's awesome. I think we talked about the Roundhouse Theater,
didn't we.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
It sounds familiar.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
I hope we did. Thank you very much, Reagan. We
love it when we hear from experts in the field
about an episode we talked about, especially when they say
we got it right. And if you want to be
like Reagan and send us an email where you're like, hey,
I know what I'm talking about, and you guys did
a good job. We love that kind of thing. You
can send it to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to stuff you should know a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's
Chuck and Jerry's here too. And this is the brief
overview of Cliff Notes.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
We're not going to do the Exhausted Encyclopedia documentary length
Cliff's Notes episode.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Nope, we are doing the brief overview of Cliff's Notes.
I said it wrong the first time. It's never been
cliff notes. It's Cliff's notes.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, I mean the first thing we should probably say,
because Jerry and the pre show banter even got it wrong.
Even though I said, Jerry, we're doing an episode on
Cliff's notes. She said, I used to get cliff notes.
It's not cliff notes. I used to say cliff notes
too in high school. But it is Cliff's notes, as
in the person's nameless Cliff. As we'll soon found find out.
(00:59):
It used to an apostrophe, then it just became cliffs
two words notes without an apostrophe. Then it became cliffs
notes all one word, but with that end capitalized.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
So stylish.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
But it has never been cliff notes.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
No, but everyone basically in the world calls it cliff.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Notes, right, and we should tell everyone what this is.
If you don't know, I do know that they went
around the world a little bit, but it feels like
a very American thing. It is a study aid. It's
basically sort of I was about to say a cliffs
Notes version of the book, because it's so in the
lexicon now. But it's like if you went to read
(01:38):
a book in high school in the eighties, like The
Scarlet Letter, and you're like, oh God, do I really
have to read the Scarlet Letter? You would go to
a store and you would buy this yellow and black,
very thin pamphlet. I don't remember how much they were then,
they're only about eight ninety nine now. Yeah, And it
would contextualize the work. It would summarize the work, give
(01:59):
the character descriptions, basically everything you needed to know the
night before to pass the test or write the paper.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Yeah, and like you said, it's entered the lexicon. Most
people can recognize it just that from that yellow and
black cover it looks like a minute Work album cover. Yeah,
or Striper Striper, Yes, very nice. Maybe that's where Striper
got it maybe. And then yeah, most people in America
know what we're talking about. I do wonder how well
(02:26):
known it is around the world, though.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
I mean, I think it ended up going to thirty
nine countries. But it just feels like a very lazy
American thing, especially for gen xers, to be like, I'll
just get that and that's fine.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, because it's been long, basically from the outset, criticized
for being this thing that students read and use instead
of actually reading the material, the book that they're supposed
to read. That actually ran a foul. I guess of
what the guy who invented these things intent was. He
(03:00):
always said, no, this is not what that's for. You're
supposed to read the regular book. You're supposed to read
the Scarlet Letter, Chuck, and whether you like it or
not doesn't matter. And then you get the cliffs notes
and you understand it that much more fully. That was
the point.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
That's right. And of course we're talking about Keith Hilla Gas.
Oh I'm kidding. Clifton Heath kill A Gas. His name
was cliff a gentleman was a true corn Huskers. We'll see.
He was born in nineteen eighteen out in the rural
sticks of Nebraska. His father was a mail carrier and
he was a very smart kid, and I would assume
(03:38):
a smart adult because he studied physics and math at
Midland Lutheran College and then was going to grad school
for physics and geology at the University of Nebraska, Go
corn Huskers, Okay, but dropped out in nineteen thirty nine
to marry a classmate named Katherine Gallbraith, at which time
he got a job at Long's College Books as a clerk,
(04:01):
and that company would later become the Nebraska Book Company.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Yeah, so, long story short, Cliff Hill of Gas was
a very smart guy. I saw that he was said
to read five books a week basically his whole life.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Or did he just read five quick summaries?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I don't know. I just don't know because he's dead
now and we can't ask him.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
That's right. But he worked at the NBC Nebraska Book
Company up until World War Two when he went to
the Army. He was a meteorologist for the Army Air Corps.
So again, pretty smart dude ended up a captain and
his wife, Catherine, worked as a clerk for the Manhattan Project,
so she was sharp as attack as well.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah. Also, I want to give big ups. Are we
still saying big ups? Heck.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, man, we're old people. We can say whatever we want.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
I want to give big ups to Olivia who helped
us out with this, because there is not a lot
of information on cliff Notes out there. Yeah, it's like
it's just not out there. You can get like the
like appropriately enough to brief overview of cliff Notes in
its history, but to really dig in and get the details,
you got to get out there. So thanks to her
(05:09):
for that.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
She did it. I think she broke into the estate
of the Hillo Gas estate and stole a diary. She did,
I think so.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Yeah. And then also I want to give big ups
to Mental Flows too because they did some really good
reporting on it, to some good digging.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah for sure. All right. So back to Cliff Hillogas
he was in the army. Then after the war he
went back to his old job at the Nebraska Book Company.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
And we knew you'd be crawling back.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yeah, And he helped transform them into a wholesale textbook distributor,
and he ended up sort of traveling all over the
country buying and selling used textbooks. When a little trip
to Toronto, Canada ended up being quite a good thing
for the course of his life, right.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, depending on who you're talking about. It wasn't that
good of a thing for named Jack Cole, the guy
who we had dinner with in Toronto, who was a
bookstore owner. And Jack Cole was like, hey, man, I'm
gonna let you in on this business opportunity. I have
these condensed pamphlets that basically are analysis of Shakespeare's place.
(06:16):
I publish sixteen of them, and I think the quote
from Cliff Hillogas was Jack Cole said yes, I know, yeah,
he said, I want you to be the American distributor
of these pamphlets, which I call Cole's Notes. And Clifton
Hilligas said, all right, I'll give it a shot, and
(06:37):
started selling these things, publishing them and selling them in America.
And what happened from Cole's Notes.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Chuck, Well, the first thing we should say is he
took a great risk. And I'm not like, you know,
weighing in one way or the other of the ethics
of any of this. But Hillogas did take upon great
financial risks. Huh. He got a loan for four thousand
dollars to make this happen close to fifty grand today,
and printed up thirty three thousand copies of these Cole's
(07:04):
Notes himself, and he and his wife Catherine and their
three young kids, like packed and shipped these things in
their house, out of their home for a little while,
and we're selling pretty good. And then what happened.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Josh, Well, yeah, so they were paying royalties to Jet Cole.
That was the setup, and within the first year, I
guess Hilla Gas was like nuts to that, I'm just
going to rename these things cliff Notes Cliffs Notes. So
they went from Cole's Notes to cliffs Notes. I think
the Cole was heard to say and Cliff was like,
(07:43):
I can't hear you. I'm done in Nebraska. So I
just see people gloss over this all the time like
it's I just don't understand why it's not at all
controversial because he clearly just took he just lifted the
intellectual property of Jet Cole and took it as his own.
To be fair, he re wrote and phased out the
(08:04):
Cole's Note stuff, but the whole concept and even basically
the name was the same.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, I would argue that maybe the name is intellectual property,
but I think in a court of law a judge
would say, like you can't claim like doing a condensed
version of a book as like an original idea that
no one else can do, because there were summaries before this.
They didn't invent the idea of a literary summary, you
(08:31):
know what I'm saying.
Speaker 2 (08:32):
Yeah, but if law and Order has taught me anything,
it's that you can't predict what a judge is going
to rule.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
No, that's true, but and I do. I'm not like
going to bat for Cliff. I'm just saying that I
don't think that's one of those ideas you can say,
like I hold the idea for condensing a long novel
into a shorter version.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
No, I understand, And I'm not trying to like gun
him down. I just hadn't gotten my gotcha today, so
that was right.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
I do feel bad for Cole though, if it helps.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
I do too, and nowhere what his his his reaction
was or what he did. I made up his quote
of that was right. But yeah, everybody just walks right
past that stuff.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
And I refuse to well people.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
I feel like everyone is called out online for doing
something like this, but old old Cliff gets a pass,
I guess because everyone got through school because of him.
Speaker 2 (09:23):
Yeah, that's the thing. So, yeah, this is not to
paint him as a bad guy. If you want to
know about him. He treasured letters that he got from
students thanking him for helping them get through school, which
you and I can attest. Getting a letter and email
like that is really great. So I guess that makes
us really great too. If I'm saying that that makes
(09:43):
him a good guy, that's wonderful. That really worked out.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Yeah, he sold a lot of these pretty quickly, though.
I do like how Olivia, but he gradually phased out
the original material, right, It seemed like that happened within
that first year. Yeah, but he was I also couldn't
find when he stopped paying the royalties. It was that
during the first year or two.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
I'm guessing when it became cliff notes. He yeah, stopped
paying royalty probably right.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
But nevertheless, between the start of when he started doing
that in August of nineteen fifty eight and just yet
six months six months later, at the end of that year,
he had sold fifty eight thousand copies of these book
summaries and pamphlets, and by nineteen sixty four, but six
years later, he was doing it. He was doing all
this on the side from the Nebraska Book Company. He
(10:30):
was able to quit that job by sixty four, and
just the sixties were a big decade period. He quit
that job in sixty four. He changed the name in
the sixties from Cliff's Notes without the apostrophe to cliffs Notes, Big,
big deal. And then he got divorced in nineteen sixty
six and got remarried.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Yeah. Later on he got remarried to a woman named Mary. Yeah,
and I guess he adopted her two kids. Another thing
that shows he's a stand up guy. Really, the only
blemish on his entire lifetime is how he treated Jack Cole.
Speaker 1 (11:02):
That's true. But did those kids biological father get royalties
on those children?
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Named them Cliff's kids. They were originally Jack Cole's because
he stole his wife Mary.
Speaker 1 (11:13):
Oh man uh, And everyone just glosses right over there.
Should we take a break? Sure, all right, we'll take
an early break here because this one's probably a little
bit shorter, and we'll talk about the early days of
that company right after this.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
We los so much stuff from Josh and shuck stuff futi.
So we should say, despite legendarily reading five books a week,
Hilly guests didn't write any of the cliffs notes. He
was more like the business guy. He Yeah, he had
(11:59):
the ide you would put in scare quotes, and he
was running the whole operation. He had the vision for it, right,
So he hired other people and initially hired literature teachers
like hardcore, like hardcore, like they have crew cuts and
wear like army boots and stuff like that kind of
lit teacher. But he realized something very quickly that I'm
(12:21):
sure developed. A hardcore lit teacher who's been teaching the
same books, been teaching a Scarlet Letter for I think
we should not mention a single other book besides a
Scarlet Letter in this episode. What do you think?
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Agreed?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
All right, let's give it a shot. These hardcore lit
teachers who have been teaching a Scarlet Letter or the
Scarlet Letter, sorry for twenty years. Technically I just named
another book, Chuck for twenty years. These people know too much,
They understand the book too well, they know all the
details that they just get mired down when they're writing
a synopsis or something. It's just too intense for the audience,
(12:57):
which is high school and call it reads usually undergrad readers.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, he was like, well, pump your brakes. I'm trying
to sell these to lazy kids, exactly like broad Overview. Please.
He ended up with grad students, mainly saying that they
did the best work, which makes sense too, that's right.
But we mentioned the iconic yellow and black design. That
was something Cliff thought of himself. I remember the Mountain
(13:28):
Cliffs even being on the editions I had when I was,
you know, a student in the eighties. I don't think
they have that anymore, but they have these yellow and
black stripes. They just it looks. I mean, it's a
genius branding move, just to do that simple little thing.
Because Cliff's Notes were so identifiable from from across a
bookstore the night before a test or something, you could
(13:50):
zoom over to that, that spinning rack of yellow and
black pamphlets.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, they would. You'd walk in the bookstore and they'd
call to you, don't bother come by, Yeah, exactly. So
one of the big things. I didn't know this, but
one of the big reasons Cliff Notes became the brand
that it is today, which is to say iconic, is
because they advertised a lot in the sixties and they
very wisely went to where their readership was. They advertised
(14:17):
in seventeen, they advertised in Playboy, they advertised in well,
the Scholastic Journal. I don't know how much of a
return on investment they got on that. But they also
advertise in college newspapers bingo. Yeah, and so like if
you're if you're going to high schoolers and college kids
and saying, hey, we have something that you it's going
(14:39):
to keep you from having to read a scarlet letter,
the scarlet letter, like don't you want that? And they say, yes,
I want that so bad. Like it just it just
rooted that business and simultaneously made it take off like
a rocket.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
That's right. And you would open up the scarlet letter
Cliff notes and it would say the letter is a
the end.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
That's why I keep a scarlet letter.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Yeah, probably could is it is literally a A for awesome, No,
not quite. One thing Cliff had in his corner was
all his work for the Nebraska Book Company and being
a traveling salesperson and all these relationships he had with
bookstores because he owned the market for this eighty percent
(15:22):
of the market for guides to literature belonged to Cliff.
Because that was just it. I mean I think I
think for a long time, I mean, competitors would come along,
and we'll talk about that, but I think he had
a number of years, maybe even decades, where everyone was
just like, well, no, there's already cliff Notes, Like why
(15:43):
even bother m.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
He owns it, right, That wasn't enough to keep people
from coming along as competitors. But it does seem like
they really didn't start to emerge until much much later
in history. Yeah, like decades and decades on.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
One of the things that cliss Notes have long been
criticized for, though, is like they write they write the
book on the scarlet letter, and that's that. Like what
you are reading could have been written by a grad
student in nineteen sixty eight, even though you just bought
(16:21):
this thing like last week. That's not the case any longer.
It's changed hands, and as it's changed hands several times,
they've definitely been dusted off and brushed up in all
those idioms. But for a very long time it was
like this is really old fashioned stuff, especially like the
language they use, the points they're making a lot of.
(16:42):
One of the things that cliss Notes was known for
is putting works of literature specifically the Scarlet Letter into
a historical context, and that can change as people understand
history more. But if you don't go update it, it's
the understanding of it.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Eighteen sixty eight, Yeah, for sure. You know we mentioned
the sixties. You just mentioned sixty eight for crying out loud. Yeah,
being a kind of a big decade for the business.
It was toward the end of that decade that things
got a little rocky. It was around nineteen sixty nine
that a couple of things happened to sort of dampen
(17:21):
the business, I guess a little bit. And this is
something I didn't know, but apparently starting in nineteen sixty
nine and through the first, you know, bit of the seventies,
the classics people are like, Hey, all these new teachers
came along and're like, hey, we don't need to read
the Scarlett Letter anymore. We're going to read another unnamed
book that's a little more current. And so the classics
kind of fell off a little bit. And apparently a
(17:42):
lot of high schools and colleges started the past fail thing.
So a kid wasn't as incentivized to ace a test,
they were just incentivized to pass a test. So They're like,
I don't even need the cliff notes. I can just
kind of fake my way through and pass this thing.
As a result, they dropped about a million bucks a
year in sales up until like the mid seventies, when
(18:04):
they were like, oh my god, what were we thinking.
We got to put the scarlet letterback on the reading list,
and we have to grade these kids according to their grade.
This past failed thing is not doing anyone any favors.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
It's chaos.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
It's chaos.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Yeah. Not only did they drop a million in sales,
they dropped a million units in the middle.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
I thought that was sales.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
No, Like, the number of sales that they made dropped
from two point eight million to one point eight million.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Oh, I was pretty sure that was dollars. But and
I'm sure if you're positive that it's units, I will
move on.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Seventy eight percent positive.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Oh okay, Well that tracks because I was twenty two
percent pots okay.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Yeah. And Cliff Hill of Gas was like, you hippies
right for that huge loss in sales for the mid seventies. Yeah.
So there was another stumble that they made Cliff's cassettes,
which was a good idea if you ask me, totally.
It was cliff Notes, but in a cassette version that
your kids could pop into their Walkman and walk around
(19:02):
listening to you.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
Want to be lazier in?
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Yeah, exactly. You don't even have to walk around. You
can lay there and listen to this stuff with your
eyes closed, in your hands soaking in Paul Mallin.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
If you don't want to read the Scarlet Letter, and
you don't want to read the forty seven page summary,
how about you just pop in that cassette and lay
on your bed and smoke some.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Grass, yeah, and listen to Ed Asner tell you what
the Scarlet Letter means.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
Oh boy, was that planned or did you just come
up with that ad?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I just came up with that.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
Oh that's so great. This was only about a six
month thing. It did not go over well despite being
a pretty good idea that got me thinking about just
audio books or books on tape and when that was
a thing. Apparently that started in nineteen thirty two. Oh yeah, yeah,
the American Foundation for the Blind opened up a recording studio,
So it was a thing, but I feel like it
(19:52):
didn't really take off until much, much, much later.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
Until the Walkman. Did you have a Walkman by the way.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Ah, yeah, of course I did.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Nice. I did too. I associated specifically with my cassette
of Huey Lewis and the News.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Sports one of the great records of all time.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Yeah, it is really good.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I don't think I ever had a disc man.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
I didn't either.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
I think I went straight from Walkman to cheese. I
guess iPod as far as walking around.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Oh yeah, I never had an iPod. I went from
Walkman to iPhone.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
I guess I had the first iPod.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
So yeah, I had the first, not the you know,
not Steve Jobs's iPod, but you know, the first, the
first edition. I still have it. It still works.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Oh do you really? Wow, that's really saying something.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah. I put pictures of it on my Instagram not
too long ago actually, because I found it, charged it,
and I just put up the opening screen because you know,
the first Walkman had everything in alphabetical order just on
the screen when he opened it. Yeah, and boy it
was eight, eight or nine bands locked in time from
I guess like two thousand or something whatever that was.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
Yeah, I didn't have one of those.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
I'm sorry. I'm gonna get you a maybe a Nano
no need.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Those things were tiny though. They were like the size
of a thumb of steak.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Yeah, or a square of chocolate.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Actually, yeah, there you ca Yeah, we'll keep going right.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah. I mentioned Hillograss was a true corn Husker. He
kept that company in Nebraska. He felt very strongly about
that and donated ten percent of its profits to Nebraska organizations.
Was a big curator of the art, So the Museum
of Nebraska Art was a big one that benefited from
his stealing that idea from coal and they have. If
you've ever looked up, like, hey, what does this guy
(21:47):
look like? Anyway, you might see a bronze statue of him,
and that is from that Museum of Nebraska Art.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yeah, he's standing up in some bushes like a creep
with a book open.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
What else? What happened in nineteen eighty three?
Speaker 2 (22:02):
He this is this? This? I think this also kind
of puts a certain like that it paints a picture
of this guy. That's what I'm trying to say. At
age sixty five on the dot, he retires, Okay, yeah,
like that's just the kind of guy he was. But
he didn't actually retire. He just stepped down from company
president to the head of the board of directors. Yeah,
(22:25):
and he still went into the office every day.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Yeah, and he instead of calling him mister hilligas they said,
you can come a cliff.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Right, he would show up in like a smoking jacket
and ascot after he retired.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Exactly, but he'd still called the shots.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
Right. But that's just I mean, I can totally because
don't forget he was trained in geology, math physics, like
he had a certain way of looking at things for sure.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Yeah. That a couple of years later, in nineteen eighty five,
that was a Chicago Tribune article. So this is mid eighties.
They had a staff of about twenty five people, and
they had published two hundred and twenty five five guide
books or book guides rather sixty million copies in circulation.
And yes, I nailed it, thirty nine countries in circulation,
(23:10):
and apparently there were some countries that used them to
help teach American English in different.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Countries, sure, especially the English used by Americans. In nineteen sixty.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Eight, that's right. By the end of the eighties they
were taking in about eleven million bucks a year, which
is pretty good. Scratch it, just about twenty eight today
twenty eight million. Yeah, that's even better scratch, And by
the end of the millennium in nineteen ninety nine, at
the age of eighty one, he sold it off. He
(23:40):
was like, all right, I'm eighty one. I want to
live out my remaining years as a super rich guy
and not just a medium rich guy. So he sold
to IDG Books, who was a publisher of the Four
Dummies guides that everyone knows, and he sold for only
fourteen million, which kind of surprises me. Fully retired and
sadly died a couple of years later at eighty three
(24:01):
from complications of stroke.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I've always wondered what that is like guys in particular,
retiring and then dying like very soon after that. It's
kind of a thing. And even if you don't die,
you can, like a lot of people just get like
really sick for a while afterwards. And I don't know
if it's like you've been running on adrenaline last five
years or what the deal is, but it's like when
(24:26):
you finally your body finally resets, like I don't have
to go to work anymore. Something happens to you.
Speaker 1 (24:31):
Are you saying this personally to me? So I, yep,
can consider this as I.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Wait my future retiring choke.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
It was bought and sold a few more times, though.
In two thousand and one, John Wiley and Son's bought
the brand. They changed the name this time. This is
when they squashed it together as Cliff's Notes with the
Capitol NY. Then Houghton Mifflin Harcourt bought it in twenty twelve,
and then Course Hero bought it in twenty one.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense to courts heroes a online tutor. Essentially,
they have courses and their heroes for it.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
And one final thing before we take the break, is
it is I think the New York Times and the
Early aughts did a report and they found that it's
not just lazy high school kids that are buying these books.
They found out it's lazy adults in book clubs. They
want to participate in the book club, but they maybe
don't have the time to read the Scarlet Letter, so
(25:28):
they'll get the cliff Notes so they can go and
have some wine and talk about the abridged version.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Right, you can tell the ones that read the cliff
Notes of the Scarlet Letter because they're the ones who
thought it was really good.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
That's right, And it's also the yellow and black is
sticking out from their fanny.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Fact, they have a little piece of it in their teeth.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Right, all right, shall we take our second break? Yes,
all right, we'll be back and pick up on where
we are today with Cliff and his notes. We loss
(26:08):
so much stuff from Josh and Shook.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Still fui.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
All right, as promised, we're going to talk about Cliffs
Notes today. You can still buy these pamphlets. Like I said,
I looked up online if you want to buy the
scarlet letter and hold it in your hand. I think
it was eight ninety nine somewhere a little less. But
they're kind of in that ballpark.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Aren't they used? Though they're not newly printed.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I don't know. I mean they saw them on Amazon
that still could be used.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
I guess that was my take that they're used, But
who knows.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Maybe I do know that their main source of income
now is the website that offers most of this stuff
for free, which is weird that they also have a
fee model.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Yeah, so you can subscribe to Cliffs Notes today for
I think nine dollars a month or thirty six bucks
a year, and you get all of the free stuff,
but you can also download it as a PDF, so
if you learned better by like reading on print or
on paper, you would need to do that. But they
(27:21):
also have other stuff too. There's like much more in
depth guides and analysis and stuff like that behind their paywall.
So it's not like you're just a total sucker for
paying for free cliffs Notes, because they have a bunch
of stuff that's not just free.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Yeah, and I got, we're not going to go through
this list, but Olivia was kind enough, I think because
she needed to fulfill a word count to list out
what you get in the actual free version of let's say,
the Scarlet Letter. And my take is that you get
a pretty good like summary and chapter by chapter thing
(27:54):
and character analysis and all that stuff. But it's just
even a lesser version than the more or robust paid monthly.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Right, and I mean it's even more. It's like there's
pretty good detail in it. Like for their their analysis
of The Scarlet Letter, they talk about how the Scarlet
Letter fits into dystopian fiction in general, yeah, or how
Big Brother in the Scarlet Letter can be compared to
Hitler stallin yeh, or when hester Prinne develops news speak,
(28:24):
what all that means.
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Yeah, exactly, an a biography of George Orwell, the writer
of the Scarlet Letter.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
That's right. Yeah, there's a bunch of stuff. I went
in and poked around, and it is a lot of
free stuff. Like you could write a numerous really good
slam dunk papers on the Scarlet Letter just from the
free stuff that they have available. So I'm a little
curious too what their business model is, because it doesn't
really make sense to me unless it's a portal two
(28:55):
course Hero. Now that I think about it, I'll bet
it is. I'll bet they get you with the free
stuff and then they get you into course Hero, and
they turn you upside down and shake you by your
ankles until all the change falls out of your pockets?
Speaker 1 (29:08):
Do you want to be a better student for nine
books a month? So we should talk a little bit
more about the elephant in the room, which is that
this is just a way for kids to cheat. I mean,
the other elephant is we haven't discussed our own cliff notes.
Cliff notes use I will volunteer my own. You don't
have to answer, I've never used them. Okay, Well, go
(29:28):
ahead and just make me look bad right before I
say that I leaned on them.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
No worse than that. I never I didn't even bother
to use the cliff notes. I didn't read the material either.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
I was just a really, really lame high school student.
In high school, I was not good at all. I
didn't blossom until college.
Speaker 1 (29:47):
Okay, I do remember that now. But you were setting
me up to look like a chump.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
I No, I didn't saved you, thank you like hester
I did it in the Scarlet Letter.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
That's right. I did use cliff notes, not exclude. I
was always a believer, and this is not right, kids
of I love to read. I was an English major,
for heaven's sake. No, so I love to read, but
I wanted to read what I wanted to read. Emily
still sort of challenges me, not on just reading, but
(30:20):
like Chuck only does what he wants to do, that
kind of thing. That's not the best trade, everybody, you
should not be like Chuck. But I wanted to read
what I wanted to read. I didn't want to read
the Scarlet Letter. So I got the cliffs notes and
you know, probably peruse the Scarlet Letter. The books that
I was like, I totally want to read that I
(30:41):
can't think of another book.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Title, the Scarlet Letter.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yeah, I would read that Scarlet Letter. I wouldn't read
the one they assigned to me. So I did use
cliff notes. I did that was in high school. Did
not use them in college as an English major because
I felt like it was time to get a little
more serious and I chose that major willingly, so I
should probably do the work. And that was only work
in college I really really enjoyed was reading and writing.
So I didn't use him in college. But all that
(31:07):
to say, the elephant in the room is like, is
this just for lazy kids? And you mentioned that Hilligas
was like no, but how would he enforce that or
encourage that?
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Rather with a stern note? Yeah, at the beginning of
every copy of cliff Notes, he had a little note.
His signature was next to it too. He said that
a thorough appreciation of literature allows no shortcuts, and students
who use them to avoid reading the actual material or
(31:36):
having to go into class for discussion groups about the
material are denying themselves the very education that they are
presumably giving their most vital years to achieve. And I
feel like he took a bit of an utopian approach
to how he viewed his customers. But surely there was
(31:56):
some out there. I do wonder if there was a
single cliff Notes buyer who read that note and was like,
you know what, I'm going to change my wage. I'm
abusing these things.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
I doubt it, but I'm sure there were students like
I did, at times where a book was a little
over their head and they used the cliff Notes as
intended to help with the book.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
I saw also that some teachers did that. They actually
suggested cliffs Notes for some students, which meant that your
teacher thought you were a dip stick.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Well. Teachers also were on record as using it for
lesson planning, sometimes because they didn't want to read the
scarlet letter either.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
That's really hilarious. That's so missus Kravopple, it totally is.
And then a lot of them actually used cliff Notes
for the opposite reasons. They would know like like, if
you're a high school English teacher, there's a handful of
the scarlet letters that you've assigned during the year, and
you assigned the same scarlet letters over and over again,
(32:59):
year after year, so you probably know the cliffs Notes
on those things. By heart, so you can very easily
pick out when somebody is not only using the cliffs Notes,
but way worse than that, it's actually plagiarizing the cliffs Notes.
That was the low laziest thing you could possibly do.
Prior to chat GPT writing your your paper for you.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Yeah, this is coming from two gen xers, and we
wrote the book on how to get away with lazy.
Speaker 2 (33:27):
Yeah. I didn't even read the material or the cliffs Notes.
That's pretty lazy.
Speaker 1 (33:31):
Yeah. Certain universities took charge. In nineteen ninety seven, Villanova
pulled cliff Notes from their college bookstore. Other bookstores maybe
didn't sell them, but they're the only one that Livy
could find at least that actually pulled them off the shelves.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
Yeah. They were famously sent in a hit squad that
ended up trashing the bookstore and tore up all of
the cliffs Notes. And when they left, they threw flash
bang grenades into the bookstore as they take.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
Off, and yellow h Hut Cliff did not like this,
and they took out a full page ad. I guess
he was passed away by this point, but the company
didn't like this, and they took an ad in the
Villanova student newspaper called it censorship, and the college just
like they can still mind these things anywhere. This is
sort of a symbolic gesture calm down.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
Yeah, we kind of touched on and we didn't say
it like overtly, But there were a lot of teachers
out there who were okay with cliff Notes, and some
who even encouraged their use. That seems to have come
along like a generation after cliffs Notes came out, which
is not coincidental because a lot of those people who
grew up to be English teachers and English professors used
(34:39):
cliff Notes when they went through school themselves, so at
the very least they had a certain fondness of it,
and at best they were like, this is actually super
helpful as a reference material.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah, for sure. And if you have a set of
cliffs Notes that you have read recently from later in
the company's story, you're like, hey, man, I didn't see
any note from cliff saying these aren't shortcuts. Ps enjoyed
the shortcut. This didn't have anything in it. I think
the minute he sold that company, they were like, let's
(35:11):
get rid of that note. Yeah, it's a real dragon.
Not only that, like our advertising should actively encourage the
fact that this is a shortcut.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, that's pretty much what they did.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
Let's own it.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, and they did own it. I think they kind
of walked it back a little bit, so there's like
a watered down version of his note essentially saying the
same thing. But they definitely did. They said the the
unspoken part out loud. I guess is how they put it.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Yeah, for sure. Is this Here's the big question though,
and I'm glad Livia posed this question, like is it
bad to use cliffs notes and the very idea of
like do kids need to read the Scarlet Letter or
is the only reason they're reading the Scarlet Letter to
just not look like a dipstick when someone brings up
(36:03):
the Scarlet Letter, like do you just need to be
acquainted with this stuff as a cultural touch point in
life or to get a Jeopardy answer correct or I'm sorry,
Jeopardy clue correct.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Man.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
We almost got our membership provoked. And you know this
is me speaking. I think, yeah, like you should read
these books, and a lot of people are on record
saying yeah, I mean, not necessarily just a scarlet letter,
but it's called I believe there's a literature scholar from
the University of Kentucky named Alan Nadell that calls it
(36:38):
the labor of witnessing, Like to actually read the thing
is the thing. It's not reading the Wikipedia, I think
that was. She found a redditor East t X Josh
that said, it's like reading the Wikipedia on Beethoven's ninth
but not listening to it. There's something about experiencing the
thing that is different and valuable.
Speaker 2 (37:00):
Yeah. Yeah, and reading all this chuck made me realize
how much I missed out by not reading all those
books in high school. You still can, buddy, right, So
I went on a couple of like I searched books
you should read before you die, and that brought up
humorous lists, and there's some that appear on all the lists.
And I'm still searching for which the Scarlet Letter I'm
(37:22):
going to read?
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Right, but single book?
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Yeah, if you have any recommendations for one to start with,
let me know.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Well, you know it would be fun. As our mutual
friend Joey Siara of the Henry Clay People who are friends,
who wrote that and performed the theme song to our
television show and still a good friend. I'm going to
see he's going to Glengarry with me this weekend.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Very nice.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
He is a Moby Dick aficionado and collects copies and
versions of that, and he said that is the best
book of all time. He said, it's not my favorite book.
He said, it's the best book.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
You mean the Scarlet Letter, the one with the Great
White Way.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Oh, that's right, I got the name wrong. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yeah, all right, yeah, I saw that one and I
was like, I don't know, I read It'd be fun
if we both read that, Okay. I have a feeling
you're going to be like, you're still reading that two
years from now.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
But well, let's put it this way. Joey gave me
a copy probably two years ago, and it sits untouched.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Okay, Shell, all right, do you give me a two
year head start and then you start and we'll finish
at the same time and talk about it.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
I gotta put down this Mike Campbell book of Tom
Petty and the Heartbreakers, and the Rim one before that,
and the mud Honey one before that I'll read is
these rock books. I need to put them all away.
And by the way, those are all called The Scarlet Letter.
My story in Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers.
Speaker 2 (38:40):
Right, and also Chuck, I mean, if rock and Roll
rot your brain reading about rock and roll really does?
Speaker 1 (38:48):
Should we mention one more point that teachers make or
I'm sorry that a problem with study guides. Some people
are like, hey, these study guys just give you one
lens look through to view this thing. And what you
need to do is read the book and go to
a class and hear it from a teacher. But some
people say, yeah, but that teacher is just looking at
(39:08):
it through their lens. I disagree. As an English major,
in my classes, the teacher would present perhaps their analysis,
and then say this is what other people think, and
what do you think?
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Right? And you have to have read the cliffs Notes
to say you think. What else you want to talk
about any of these parodies or spin offs or competitors?
Speaker 1 (39:30):
Yeah, I mean we can just mention kind of quickly.
Spark Notes became the biggest competitor in like nineteen ninety nine.
There's one called Schmoop found it in two thousand and
eight that became a pretty good competitor.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
That's pretty good. I went and read some of their stuff.
It's much more loosely written, like what's up with YadA
YadA YadA. Oh really, what's up with that letter?
Speaker 1 (39:51):
A interesting? I do want to mention this one spoof
at least Thug Notes.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Did you watch any of these?
Speaker 2 (40:00):
That's the one on Doctor Jekyl and mister Hyde.
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Yeah, I think give me the car letter Man.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
I got it too. We both went.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
Down Thug Notes.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
I was talking about the movie.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Oh right, right, right. It's a YouTube series from comedian
Greg Edwards. He plays a character, a PhD named Sparky Sweets,
who summarizes a commentary on one hundred different books. They're
generally about five minutes long, and it's a comedy thing,
you know, it's thug Notes. He does African American vernacular
and breaks down these books in a fun way, in
(40:33):
a very quick way. But he's got three point one
four million subs, and if you watch one of these,
like you did, you will soon learn like it's a joke,
but he's laying down some real truth on some of
these as well.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Oh yeah, like when you finish watching one of these
thug Notes, like you understand what that book was about,
like fully, Like he does a great job with it.
But yeah, there's just this whole stick to it. That's
pretty awesome too.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
Yeah. I watched a few of them, but the one
on the Scarlet Letter by George Orwell. At the end
in the analysis, he explains he talks about censorship and
book burning and stalinism and double talk and all that
stuff in a very fun way. And I can only
think that, like, there might be young students that identify
(41:18):
with with Greg Edwards and what he's doing, that it
might provide a little real insight and inspiration, I hope. So,
even though it's.
Speaker 2 (41:27):
Just a joke, did you say that? Did you say
the name of his character on thug Notes?
Speaker 1 (41:31):
I did?
Speaker 2 (41:32):
I love it. I guess that's about it.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
Huh, that's all I got on cliff Notes.
Speaker 2 (41:36):
Okay, I think man. Hats off to us, Hats off
to Olivia, hats off to Mental Floss, Hats off to
Sparky Sweet's PhD. We made it through cliffs Notes.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Hats off to Nathaniel Hawthorne.
Speaker 2 (41:49):
Yeah, and hester Print too. Yeah, let's see, since we
took our hat off to hester Print, of course, that
means it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 1 (42:02):
Hey guys, this is about Broadway. My name's Reagan. I've
been a listener for ten years. My husband Paul, and
I love to listen to you guys while we cooked dinner,
and we listen to reruns on long car trips. I'm
writing in Because Broadway the Broadway episode because I am
a theatrical costume designer and I wanted to offer some
more insight about previews that you guys were discussing. Previews
(42:23):
have a cool function where they are actually used by
the production team to keep changing, like Josh said, and
fine tuning a show based on audience feedback, especially on
a brand new show. New lines and music may even
be written and added during the process. Changes can also
include restaging and cutting or adding technical elements like costumes
for props. However, Chuck was right and that toward the
end of previews the show will be frozen by the director,
(42:46):
which means no further changes are allowed to be made,
and it's after that time that critics will be invited
to attend during previews after they're frozen before opening night.
Got it so that totally clears it up. Thanks for
doing such a great job covering Broadway. Really touched me
to hear about the theater world on my favorite podcast,
because I listen to you guys almost daily in the
(43:06):
costume shop. And that is from Reagan McKay, interim costume
shop manager at the Roundhouse Theater.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Wow, that's awesome. I think we talked about the Roundhouse Theater,
didn't we.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
It sounds familiar.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
I hope we did. Thank you very much, Reagan. We
love it when we hear from experts in the field
about an episode we talked about, especially when they say
we got it right. And if you want to be
like Reagan and send us an email where you're like, hey,
I know what I'm talking about, and you guys did
a good job. We love that kind of thing. You
can send it to Stuff Podcasts at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 1 (43:40):
Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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Josh Clark
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