Uses of the Insanity Defense

The idea that a person who can't understand the crime they've committed is wrong lets them off the hook from culpability for their actions is a longstanding pillar of Western criminal law. Learn about some of the prominent and overlooked cases where the accused has plead insanity in this episode of Stuff You Should Know.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to you stuff you should know from how stuff
Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Josh Clark, I'm hungry, and there's Charlotte. Did that make
you hungry? It did? We were just talking about I
made my last chili the season, and Josh's over here

(00:22):
mouth watering, yeah, because you're talking about for tea soup,
white chili, bread chili. I'll eat any kind of chili really,
And Jerry always eats in here. People don't know that
she eats lunch while we were for so this smell
of her stuff always wots over. It's delicious. The avocado
looks top notch Jerry, It's insane how good that stuff is.

(00:43):
Oh man, Uh, it's funny that you bring that up, Chuck,
because we are talking today about the insanity defense. Is
that why you just did that? Yeah, you know, Chuck. Yeah,
for a very long time, basically since there was is
such a thing as law, you know, prior to the
advent of law in western civilization, if I killed your brother,

(01:09):
you would come kill me. Yeah, and I right, that
was actually the first law, the Code of Hammurabi from
the Bible. But a little after that, right, and actually
I think it predates the Bible Hammurabi. Yeah, I mean
it's like on a black obelisk. Yeah, all right, that's old.

(01:30):
That's what I mean. Um, the pretty much the whole
idea behind law from the get go was the idea
of what was going on in your head when you
did something motive tent. There's a difference between accidentally killing
somebody and killing someone on purpose, and this was the

(01:52):
idea behind law, to get to the bottom of it
and then punish accordingly. And so it's it's a pretty
short hop, skip and a jump from getting to the
bottom of what someone was thinking at the time to
finding that some people weren't thinking anything that any sane
human being would recognize as rational. And with that understanding

(02:16):
came the beginnings the premise of what we recognize now
is the insanity defense. But this this whole idea that
somebody can that the insane, those who are mentally ill
um can't understand or grasp the criminality, the moral wrongness

(02:38):
of their act um. The idea that that's out there,
that people like that are out there, has moved us,
I think, quite compassionately, like this check one for humanity.
In my opinion, to protect them, like we need to
make sure they don't do that again. But that's not
evil and the point of law is to punish evil,

(03:00):
right fielders. Yeah, it's true. Yeah, you know so. Um,
the from the beginning of understanding this too, even to today,
that the insanity defense has undergone evolution after evolution after evolution. Yeah,
and you know quite a bit about this a little bit. Um.
It started out in sixteenth century England and um. At

(03:23):
the time, Uh, they had the wild beast test in
England where a person was so depraved of understanding or
memory of like what they had done that uh quote
no more than an infant of brute or a wild
beast could be found not guilty of his crimes. Um.
And it's important to say in insanity is not a

(03:43):
medical condition, Like you can't look it up and define
insane in like the medical what was was the book
the d S d S, d S M. Insanity is
not in there, I don't think, um. And there's no
single standard in the United States were defining it um
in the court system as far as the defense goes
even today. Yeah, Like different states have different methods. There's

(04:08):
not like a single federal standard. Yeah, and there's actually
a conversation now of whether or not that should be.
That's a constitutional right protected by the Eighth Amendment that
you are, um, you have a right to plead insanity
or try to prove that you were insane. And yeah,
because some states recognize it, right, Uh yeah, as we'll
find out. Um. So there's a couple of different um

(04:31):
tests that the United States generally operate under. And the
first one is the uh monoton test. You pronounced that.
I think it's m apostrophe not in and it looks
like it should be McNaughton, but they left the sea
out and replace it with an apostitis exactly. So he's
very stylish. And that was in the UK and the

(04:52):
eighteen forties, and I guess we should go ahead and
talk about that case now. Well, Daniel Manon, Yeah, yeah, um.
He was a Scottish woodwork um who believed that Prime
Minister Robert Peel and the Pope were plotting against him. Yeah,
so um, Manaunton went to London and he shot and

(05:12):
killed Peel's um secretary. Now, was that a mistake in
the identity thing or was it just a bad shot?
I didn't see kill the wrong person. Yes, but he
did kill that person with the intent of killing Peel
because he thought that Peel was out to get him. Um,
and so Peel was. He was tried, but he was

(05:32):
acquitted by reason of insanity and he was sentenced to
life in Bedlam, which was not a nice place to be.
It just sounds like, you know, why would you name
it Bedlam unless it was just awful. Well, you know,
this is where it comes from. Yeah, because Bedlam was
like kind of a British um. I think it was open.
It was open in twelve seven and it was kind

(05:52):
of short for Bethlehem, and it was the first mental
asylum in Europe. Yeah, and this guy was sentenced to
life there, which is that's that was not a nice
thing to have happened to you. But even still, the
fact that some guy tried to kill the Prime Minister
and was not thrown into prison, which I imagine was
even worse than Bedlam. Um. Queen Elizabeth herself came out

(06:13):
and said, well, what are you guys doing? What courts
explain yourselves. And what the courts came up with was
what came to be known as the Magnaton rule. They said,
if you here's a test for insanity. If somebody UM
doesn't know what they're doing at the time they commit
the crime, or they don't know what they're doing was

(06:34):
right or wrong. It's also called the right wrong test.
Then from now on under British law, we're going to
uniformly say that that person is insane and can be
acquitted of a crime. They really called it the right
wrong test. It's along the nose UM, so that's a
monoton test and what we'll get to how that applies today.
UH and then came along UM American Law Institute the

(06:56):
a l I established an insanity test in nineteen two,
um laid out in the Model Penal Code, and they
then began to consider what they called irresistible impulse. So
if you're a defendant, you could not refrain from doing
something you knew was wrong, like you you can see red,

(07:16):
you know what's wrong to kill someone, but you just
couldn't help yourself, like what you might call a crime
of passion or something like that, like you're so overwhelmed
with rage or vengeance or whatever. You know what you're
doing is wrong, but you can't stop yourself. It's also
called the volition rule. YE you're doing it like Shawshank
for instance, although he didn't really kill anyone, but that's
what they thought was Tim Robbins had walked in on

(07:38):
his wife and like, try this guy. So, um, under
this test, h you were criminally insane if you're unable
to quote appreciate the criminality of conduct or to conform
your conduct to the requirements of the law. So you
can still go out and kill someone and uh use
gloves and dispose of the body and all that stuff

(08:00):
and still be considered insane under this standard used to
it was pretty it was pretty controversial. And then twenty
years after that, I got named John Hinckley changed all
that again, which led to the Insanity Defense Reform Act
of eighty four. So what happened with Hinkley? We all
remember that, right, Yeah, he went after Reagan to impress
Jodie Foster and he shot Reagan and he was acquitted.

(08:23):
He was found not guilty by reason of insanity, and
the nation went crazy. Yeah, people were like because it
was the president, you know, like, how can you acquit
this guy? Right? Well, not only that, it was when
Monoton was sentenced to bedlam and the Monoton Rule came
about for about a hundred years after that, maybe a
little less. If you were found insane, whether or not

(08:47):
you're acquitted, you still spent the rest of your life
in an insane asylum. As psychology progressed further and further
and got to the point where they're like, hey, this
person's cured. This person's cured. That person. Sometimes when you
were found not guilty, very's in insanity, you weren't even
like you got out after a couple of years. It
was basically tantamount to getting off. And by the time

(09:09):
Hinckley was acquitted, UM that the public kind of saw
that that was the case, like he wasn't going to
get any kind of punishment, and we need to do something.
So they came up with a reform for the insanity defense. Yeah,
and basically that sort of put the ali standard aside
and brought us back to something more like the magnoton rule.

(09:31):
And UH even more significantly, probably they federal and state
shifted the burden of proof after Hinckley to UH defense,
so you had to instead of being in on the prosecution, UM,
it was on the defense to prove that they were
UH with clear evidence that they were legally insane. At
the time, So that was a big deal that shift. Yeah,

(09:53):
and yeah, they did away with the volition rule too, right,
I think so. And and it's important to know that
when you there's two ways to to use the insanity role.
You can go guilty by reasons of insanity or not
guilty by reasons of insanity, which is interesting that you
can use the same thing for guilty or not guilty.
But um, it's there to protect the mentally ill, you know.

(10:14):
So it's a it's a good thing, and it's not
it's pretty tough to get it through. Like only one
percent of cases are successful, and then only about fifteen
of that one percent are actual acquittals. So it's not like,
you know, oh I was I was insane at the time,
and so you can't throw me in jail. Yeah, well
it's pretty rare at the time. Is a really big

(10:36):
thing too. You can't just be like, oh, well, I'm
mentally ill, so I gotta let me off, because then
I have blanket immunity from any of my actions. You
have to be able to prove that at that time
you didn't understand what you were doing was wrong, you
were not competent to too. I guess stand trial, Yeah,
and for that and convince a jury of that, which
is that's the trick. Yeah. So we have some famous

(10:59):
cases here. Yeah Manton his case came in uh eighteen
forty three, but um, he wasn't the first one in
the West to uh, I guess get off for being insane.
Acquitted by reason of insanity. Um. In the United States
back in eighteen thirty five, a guy named Richard Lawrence,

(11:21):
who was a house painter, um, was acquitted by reason
of insanity. We're trying to kill the president. Yeah, trying
to kill him really hard to Andrew Jackson was the
president at the time. Yeah. I don't think I knew
this until this article. I didn't need did you know
you didn't know? Okay, I'm not a dummy. Then he
had a derringer, and I think derringers at the time
were notorious for not firing. It fired, it fired bullet,

(11:47):
so it went off, but the bullet didn't come out. Well, yeah,
that's what I'm saying. They were known for not firing correctly.
And uh. He actually had two derringers and they both misfired,
and apparently Jackson went after him with his cane like
you know this dude was trying to kill me. Like
there was no secret service at the time. I guess
secret service was his cane, right. He happened to be
coming out of a state funeral. And so not only
did Andrew Jackson beat this guy with his kane, none

(12:10):
other than Tennessee Senator Davy Crockett helps to subdue again,
of course he did. Richard Lawrence is like, this is awesome.
I'm getting beat by Davy Cross Jackson. I'll be remembered forever.
And he was and as uh if you know about him, Um,
but he was acquitted and committed to a mental asylum

(12:31):
and that was the end of Richard Lawrence as far
as we know. Yeah, and we should say like he
was it wasn't just going after the president that made
him insane. He was He believed he was Richer the
Third uh, the king who was recently found buried beneath
the parking lot. Oh yeah, um, he thought he was
Richer the Third and the Andrew Jackson had killed his
father and that by killing Andrew Jackson, um, a lot

(12:53):
more money would be available. This is during a depression,
and Jackson actually, for his part, came to believe that
Richard Lawrence was a patsy in an assassination attempt carried
out by the rival I think Wig Party who wanted
him out of the presidency, which wasn't true, no, but
he spent the rest of his life paranoid about it. Alright,

(13:15):
So uh ezra Pound, poet, writer, and unbeknownst to me,
uh anti Semite and fascist. I had no idea. I
didn't either. He was um. And this was a tricky
case because most people believe now that he wasn't insane
and that he just really I knew the right people

(13:36):
and pulled the right strings to get out of a crime.
So he was a big Mussolini guy. Moved to Italy
and started doing a radio broadcast, began writing and broadcasting
these anti Semitic, anti Roosevelt rants during World War Two.
That doesn't sit well with the United States, of course,
especially not when we invade Italy and take over Ya.
And so uh it was an act of treason, and

(13:59):
he was arrested and imprisoned in Italy, and then after
Mussolini died, he was extradited. Uh faced these charges and
he pled insanity and was actually found not competent to
stand trial and spent the rest of his days in
a middle asylum, Saint Elizabeth's in d C, Washington, DC.
He didn't spend the rest of his days. He got
out in nineteen fifty eight. Oh. I thought he died

(14:21):
at night, and while he was at St. Elizabeth's, which
was headed by a devotee of Ezra Pound, a guy
named Dr winfried Overholser, Sr. That's not a real name.
I swear he was the head of Saint Elizabeth and
he thought Pound was just one of the greatest literary
figures alive. I thought he died there and no, and
so he vouched for him and um. Basically Pound was

(14:44):
allowed to have like visitors over for sex anytime, and he
he had a really cushy um life while he was there,
and got out and got around being tried for treason
even though he was never declared insane. No doctor ever
said this man's insane. They just vouched for him that
he was. I can't remember how they put it, but
basically they got around it with some antickes off his

(15:07):
rocker is that the legal term. Uh. The next one
is pretty interesting to Anthony and William Esposito brothers dubbed
the Mad Dog killers in one in January, New York City,
they held up their office manor and office manager for
about six fifty bucks and then shot and killed him.

(15:27):
And then this wild police chase on foot down Fifth
Avenue or up Fifth Avenue in Manhattan, like darting in
and out of department stores, shooting and stuff. One of
the guys gets popped in the leg, goes down, plays dead,
and then shoots and kills the officer as he approaches them.
The dirty rat, Oh man, that's such a dirty right move.

(15:48):
The other guy or when he shot and killed the
cop um, he got up and starry to run off
in a bunch of New Yorkers got on top of
him and beat him unconscious. That's the beauty of New York.
And they they found the other guy his brother in
in a convenience store, and so they were caught and tried,

(16:08):
and throughout the trial they barked and drooled and banged
their heads on the on the desk because apparently this
is what insane people do exactly, And the jury didn't
buy it and convicted him both sentenced him to death.
Actually yeah, And while they were at sing sing they
continued this I mean I I don't know if people
thought it was real or not, So I don't I'm

(16:30):
hesitated to say continued the charade because maybe they were
a little off. But um, they continued this in prison,
and they basically didn't care in sing sing and they
were put to death in so unsuccessful in their bid
to get off on the insanity rule. Yeah, like you said,
only is effective in one percent of cases, Andrew Goldstein, Yeah,

(16:54):
I remember this going down, do you really? Yeah, this
is such a stead case. Nine He uh pushed a
woman named Kendra Webdale in front of the end train
at the twenty three Street station during a psychotic episode.
And this was a true case of someone who was deeply,
deeply troubled. You know. It wasn't someone who said, let

(17:17):
me use the insanity defense because I didn't know what
I was doing at the time. He uh started off
his life as a pretty bright guy and then started
suffering delusions in college and had been in and out
of psychiatric hospitals. Um had had violent episodes with his mother,
violent behavior, basically committed self committed thirteen times over a

(17:38):
two year period, and was just released a few weeks
before he had pushed this poor woman in front of
the train which killed her. Yeah, and um, as a
result of her death, New York came up with something
called Kendra's Law, which gives judges the power to um
forcibly commit people they think need psychiatric attention for up

(17:59):
to seventy two hours. Um, which is a big deal.
But in this case it doesn't quite jibe from what
I understand, because Goldstein did voluntarily seek treatment. Oh yeah,
it's just a sad case. He was tried three times
for it. The first time there was a hung jury.
He played insanity. The second time he was found guilty.

(18:21):
But um, that uh, that finding what was what would
that be called? Verdict? Yeah? That verdict? Man, something's up
with me? That was thrown out on a technicality as
I understand. And then in two thousand and five he
was tried for a third time and play guilty, yeah,
to manslaughter though not murder. Yeah, and he has in

(18:41):
prison and he was sitce the twenty three years plus
five of probation, and like you said, Kender's Law was
passed as a result. So yeah, very very sad case. Yeah,
there's no nobody comes out a winner on that. You
got one more yeah, um? John Delling I mentioned or not,
um that there was a discussion about whether or not

(19:03):
someone has a constitutional right to plead insanity. Um. This
is the guy that brought it up most recently. Um.
Back in two thousand seven, he shot over the course
of a couple of months, he shot three of his
friends friends, Yeah, and killed two of them. One was
a childhood friend, were friends since childhood. And um, it

(19:24):
was he was a diagnosed paranoid. He was diagnosed with schizophrenia.
And um, he was under the impression that people were
stealing his powers. I guess the people he that he killed. Yeah.
The thing is, um, even the defense and the judge said,
you know, the whole reason that you did this was

(19:45):
because of your mental illness, and you this is a
perfect insanity defense. Idaho doesn't recognize the insanity defense. So
he was sentenced for to two life terms in solitary
confinement without parole for were the killings. Yeah, and like
everyone agreed that this guy was mentally ill. But like

(20:06):
you said, wrong state, wrong crime, and uh that's what
prompted like like you were talking about like is this
should this be a federal right? And you know, after
the Hinckley verdict, a lot of states repealed the insanity defense, um,
and then a lot of them went back and reinstated
it under different terms. Yeah, like Utah for example, repealed

(20:29):
it and then allowed it to come back. But it's
next to impossible to prove it under the definition that
that's out there. But Idaho was like, no, there's no
insanity defense. And I think there's a couple of other
states too. Well, that's all the cases I have same here. Man,
It's it's definitely I mean, it's there to help the

(20:51):
mentally ill. But I think you're right. For a little
while there, it was you know, plead insane, go to
a hospital, a few years, get out. Well, you know
what's interesting is we we talked about um, we talked
about them getting rid of the volition rule, right, but
like just quickly Lorraina Bobbitt she was basically temporarily insane

(21:14):
and she was acquitted of her actions assault. And the
Dahmer was a very famous case too. Yes, but he's
his insanity plea didn't work out because the jury believed
he knew what he was doing was wrong. Neither did
his prisons day. You know that guys, he's trying to
write a book the guy who killed him. No, I
didn't know that. Yeah. I'm kind of interested too, because
he always like, there's not a whole lot of information

(21:38):
on what's his name, Uh, somebody Carver, Clarence Carver. I think, no,
you're thinking of the saxophonist for the Bruce Springsteen bangand
that's Clarence Clemens. And he's passed away. His name is
Christopher Scarver, Clarence Carter Carver, Christopher Scarver, Clarence Clemens passed away. Yeah, man,

(21:58):
like last year. I think I didn't know that, said, um.
So anyway, he's trying to write a book, and I
was always curious because there's not a lot of information
like why he killed he killed those two guys that day?
Oh he killed someone else that day, Yeah, he killed
He was on bathroom duty with two other dudes, two
other murderers and another guy. And I think he got
a piece of like a metal bar from the gym

(22:19):
and beat them to death. And uh, he wants to
write a book now to like explain why he did
it and to reveal Bomber's final words, which you know,
it's very salacious. But of course I'm like, what do
you say, Well, I hope he does do it and
then finds out later on that you're not legally allowed
to profit from your crime. Yeah, that's true, so he
wouldn't be able to If you're listening to this, I

(22:40):
didn't just say that, Scarborough. I don't think he's listening. Okay. Uh,
people do listen to this in prison. We know that
for a fact. Yeah, he's probably making a mould wine
in a sock. Uh. You got anything else on mould wine? Nope? Okay.
If you want to learn more about the insanity defense, um,

(23:00):
there's a great article on how stuff works dot Com
called ten Uses of the Insanity Defense. And there's another
one called, um, what is the definition of insanity? Right? Yeah,
which we'll go back. We may want to do that
one in full. We'll see if it's got more stuff
in there. Um. You can check both of those out
by typing insanity into search bar the search bar how

(23:21):
stuff works dot Com Because, as I said, search bar, Uh,
that means it's time for this. No, it's sime for
listening now, okay, Josh. Part three not listener mail, but
part three of what Okay, administrative details. If you haven't

(23:45):
learned by now's when we thank people for sending us
nice things, and we're almost done, like like we're caught up. Man.
Uh yeah, I have a few on my desk, but
that's nothing like a few was no big deal, all right.
We got some awesome aluminum prints from Dan Gaffney of
tech Lab Photo in Baltimore. Yeah, thanks Dane. Um you
remember him. We corresponded with him recently. Yeah, good guy.

(24:05):
Thanks Dan. Uh is their website on there? Uh no,
but tech Lab Photo in Baltimore. Use the old search
engine of your choice to figure that out, or you
can just drive there. Um. We got a nice postcard
of Jesus's baptismal site in the Jordan River from Christina Curtis,
who researches water resources in Jordan. Thank you for that.
We got some coffee from Singing Rooster Coffee dot com.

(24:29):
The proceeds go to help Project Haiti dot org. And
I think I just said of the proceeds, you sure did,
so that's that's pretty awesome. So support Singing Rooster Coffee
dot com. Yeah. Um. We got a postcard of Minari,
Pakistan tower from or Fom. Thank you very much for that. Uh,
Don Kobi or Buddy Coops Sini. That awesome. It was

(24:51):
on glass, right, Yeah, it's like a cutting board. How
is that what that is? I believe so it's what
that's what I've been using it for. I know that's
what it's. It's goal her photograph underneath a photograph that
she took of like a landscape. Um, but it's I'm
pretty sure it's a cutting board. All right. You should
probably let us know, Koby, don't break it. Uh. And
we also got a letter from boy scout Brandon W.

(25:12):
Who wrote us to earn his communications merit badge. Um.
We got a handwritten note card suggesting we do three
D printers from I think another erfon. We're gonna have
to do that. Everyone is asking for three D printing.
It's the hot thing I know Atlantic core Vet's drum

(25:33):
and Bugle core patch. Um. And I don't know who
sent it, and I apologize that we don't have the name,
but the Atlanta Corvette Drum and Bugle Corps is a
patch and I might put it on a hat. Oh
wow wow. Uh. We got some nice letters um, requesting
info on unsolved questions like the Bermuda triangle, Handenberg exorcism

(25:56):
from Andrea P. Jake M. Jason S, Stephanie B and
Vanessa be All from the eighth grade class at North
Carol Middle School in Hampstead, Maryland. Sorry we didn't write
back in time. I believe they're all in high school now. Really, yeah,
but thank you for writing in guys, keep growing up.
Um awesome insects science illustration postcard from Martha Iserman of

(26:17):
Big Red Sharks dot com and New Zealand's not down
under postcard in New Zealand facts. Uh and we can't
really see who signed it because the post office stamped
over it, so see our USPS podcast for why that happens. Um,
but we thank you for that. We got a letter
from Benjamin from Gardner's Avenue School in Livittown, New York,

(26:40):
who wanted info on the Statue of Liberty. Thank you
for that. National Radio Astronomy Observatory in New Mexico said
it's a postcard from Dylan C. And he is in
the Navy and an amateur astronomer. Yeah. He said it
was like going to uh, I can't remember where, but
it was like a pilgrimage for him. Nice. Yeah, um,

(27:01):
let's see we got an exceptional hand drawn postcard. From Alex,
who's an artist in North Carolina. We got a CD
of the album The Broken Record by Twink, which is
the Toy Piano band. Did you hear They're pretty awesome? Uh?
Las Arena Chile. We got a postcard from Margaret's Seed
from Chile, and uh coffee and coffee tips from Otto Kampa.

(27:27):
Oh yeah, I didn't see the coffee tips. Is there
a question mark at the end of that person's name.
We got a Mexican pizza menu from Christie Thid which
includes like peach, leg of pork, avocado tuna, like a
pork that struck my fancy. I would eat some avocado pizza. Like,
as a matter of fact, I'm putting avocado in my
next pizza, right. I got some more coffee from Alex

(27:50):
with a y X and our friends at the Adina,
Minnesota Done Brothers Coffee place. Yeah, thank you for that. Um, well,
you've been get lots of coffee. Huh, Like if you
had to buy coffee in a couple of years. Oh,
it's all gone, is it? Yeah? That's all from the
coffee podcast. Okay, portrait book of and I shared? I shared, Oh,
Sue or at least offered and I was like, no,

(28:12):
you take the coffee, but I share. I think I
gave some to Conal Bird and I think Jerry got
some too, didn't you. Jerry, you got coffee? Okay? Yeah, Jerry,
Like what you go? You guys still hear? Um, we
got a portrait book of Justin and it's cat Waffles
of Everything Waffles dot com. Yeah, it's definitely worth checking out.

(28:33):
And a postcard of a man with a giant fish
from Reagan t And I think you have one more, right,
I do. Um, let's see, we got a lovely floral
note congratulating you me and me on our wedding. Leo Ray,
thank you very much for that. It's very nice. Boy.
You have been holding onto these for a while. I
know it's the February before last. Okay, so thank you

(28:55):
for that. Finally, Yeah, thank you to everybody who's been
sending us stuff. We really genuinely appreciate it. Super sweet
and um, if you want to send something, you can
find the address on the How Stuff Works homepage. He
scrolled do out at the bottom of the homepage under
contacts and click on that has our address. You can
send us something that well done. And if you want
to get in touch with us, just to say hi

(29:16):
or whatever. UM, you can tweet to us at s
y ESK podcast. You can join us on Facebook, dot com,
slash stuff you Should Know, You can send us an
email to Stuff Podcast and Discovery dot com, and you
can join us at our home on the web, Stuff
you Should Know dot com. For more on this and

(29:38):
thousands of other topics, is that how stuff works dot
com I I I